717 results for: "back to school"
Back-to-school stress: Why I believe self-advocacy can help
As president of Eye to Eye, the largest national mentoring organization for kids with learning and thinking differences (and an Understood founding partner), I get to talk to a lot of parents. Right now, the biggest thing on their minds is back to school.Academics is a big concern for many parents. But there’s also a social-emotional side of the new school year, especially the stress and anxiety that kids face.I understand this firsthand because I went through these struggles as a kid. I remember my ninth-grade year as being a particularly tough back-to-school transition.During the first week of ninth grade, my English teacher assigned us Shakespeare’s Macbeth to read.“Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.”—Macbeth, Act 4, Scene 1I have dyslexia and ADHD, and I started worrying that reading this play was going to be impossible for me. How was I going to do this? I could feel my hands shaking and my palms sweating — my stress level went through the roof.It didn’t help that this was my first year of high school. I was in a different building than last year, with new classrooms and a new locker. I didn’t know my way around.In middle school, I’d been one of the oldest students. The teachers knew me. I had a support system of people I could talk to. Now I was a lowly freshman, starting all over again. It was scary and nerve-racking.But it was an opportunity as well. This was a chance for a fresh start. And soon, someone would give me the chance to talk through how I was going to handle ninth grade.After assigning Macbeth, my English teacher pulled me aside.“Marcus,” she said, “I’ve seen your IEP. I know you have dyslexia and reading issues. And I know what accommodations the IEP provides for you in class.”I was quiet. Then she continued, “I know all that, but I’d like you to share with me in your own words: What’s going to help you be successful in my class?”I was a little stunned. This was the first time I’d had a chance to talk with someone who wasn’t my parent or a special education teacher about the way I learn.She gently nudged me, and then I opened up.Yes, I told her, I love to participate in class and share my ideas, but please don’t call on me to read aloud. I’m not good at it, and reading aloud will terrify me and ruin my focus in class.As we talked, I started to remember things that had worked for me in middle school. I do better, I recalled, when I sit in the front of the class. It helps me pay attention.“What about the reading assignments?” she asked.Oh yes, I said, I’m going to have difficulty keeping up on the reading. Suggestions popped into my head — maybe I can get the assignments ahead of time so I can start early? Maybe there can be understanding if I’m a little behind because it takes me longer to read?She listened to me and nodded. My stress level started to go down.It’s not like everything was instantly better. I still struggled, and I didn’t have everything figured out. For instance, I wished I’d embraced audiobooks in ninth grade as a way to keep up with reading. It’s a tool I use every day as an adult!But just the act of talking about what I needed made me feel empowered and more confident about school. My teacher made it OK for us to discuss what would have been frightening for me to think about alone.If your child is struggling in school, he may find it really embarrassing and scary to speak up. These self-advocacy skills aren’t easy. Students with learning and thinking differences need to practice them over and over again, and consistently.The good news is that the start of each school year is a chance to get your child talking about their needs. It’s a natural time to do this because everything is new. And for many kids, talking about the changes helps reduce stress and anxiety.How do you go about getting your child talking?In ninth grade, it was a teacher who gave me a push. In previous years, my parents had done so. In later years, I initiated these talks. In fact, I took these skills into college and the workplace.Every kid is different. Some are natural talkers. Others need hand-holding from parents and teachers. Many kids can benefit from having a mentor to help guide the way. Personally, I’ve always felt that these conversations are easier if you schedule them right before doing something fun, like going out for ice cream or shopping for new sneakers.The key is to start somewhere, no matter how small. And then keep talking. Self-advocacy is an essential skill that takes years to learn.
In ItBack-to-school action plan: Setting goals and getting organized
Starting a new school year can be overwhelming, especially for kids who learn and think differently. Get tips for making it more manageable. For many families, the new school year brings a real mixed bag of emotions. There’s the excitement of a fresh start combined with jitters about all of the unknowns. For families of kids who learn and think differently, there may be IEPs or 504 plans, and new teachers to connect with about all these things. It’s a lot to think about — and to navigate.In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with returning guest DeJunne’ Clark Jackson, an education consultant and parent advocate. She’s also the mom of two kids, one with an IEP. Tune in for back-to-school strategies that have worked well for DeJunne’ and her family. Find out how she sets goals with both of her kids, keeping in mind their strengths and challenges.Related resources Download: Back-to-school update for families to give to teachersDownload: Goals calendar for kids who struggle with planningMy kids have different strengths and challenges. Here’s how I set goals with them.Hear more from DeJunne’ in this episode about parent-teacher conferences from last season Get back-to-school tips from executive function coach Brendan Mahan in this episode about building executive function skills Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: ...the ups and downs...Gretchen: ...of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor with a family that's definitely in it.Gretchen and I have been away from our microphones for most of the summer, apart from a bonus episode here and there. But with the new school year very much upon us, I think we're ready to jump back in.Gretchen: Actually, here in California, school has already been going on for a few weeks. But that doesn't mean we couldn't use some tips on how to help our kids get off to a good start.Rachel: Not to mention what to do if things get bumpy fast.Gretchen: So to help us with that, we've invited back DeJunne' Clarke Jackson.Rachel: DeJunne' is a former teacher and school counselor based in Baton Rouge. Now, she works as an educational therapist and student advocate.Gretchen: She's also president of the Center for Literacy and Learning, a nonprofit that supports teachers who teach reading.Rachel: And she's a parent of two kids, one with learning differences and one without.Gretchen: Last time she joined us, we talked about how to prepare for parent-teacher conferences. And we will never forget her describing herself as "the five-inch binder mom."Rachel: We're so glad to have her back with us today. DeJunne', welcome back to "In It."DeJunne': Thank you for having me. So glad to be back.Gretchen: We are so happy to have you back. And last time we had you on the podcast, you talked about your two kids. And I know one of them learns and thinks differently and has an IEP. And I'm wondering if you're talking to your kids before school starts, and what kinds of conversations you're having with them.DeJunne': So, yes, I am having conversations with both my boys, age 9 and 14. So we're going into the fourth and the 10th grade. My oldest, of course, is the one with learning differences. So their conversations are the same, but different.And so we actually started having those conversations at the end of last school year. So we don't reserve those conversations for just the start of this upcoming school year. Mostly because my boys really try to avoid knowing that school is starting. So we — I really want to capture their attention when they're in this mindset of like being open to having those conversations about what the next school year looks like. What did this last school year look like?And my conversations with my 9-year-old look a lot different than my 14-year-old because his conversations are, you know, a lot around like social norms and expectations and, you know, our friendships in the social media realm and navigating teenager hood.Gretchen: Yeah, I'm so glad to hear you brought up social things. I'm wondering, especially with your older child, do you kind of reflect on last year in terms of academics and then set academic goals for the following year? Talk a little bit about that.DeJunne': Yeah. So we set academic goals for both kids. One thing about goal setting, though, our expectation is that both kids do their best. And it varies per subject. So we lean into the strengths.And if I know that science is your jam and you're good at it, then we set the expectation to match your ability. And if it's an A and we know you can perform at an A, then we set that expectation at an A. And if math is your challenge and we know you struggle through it and you show up every day to try your best and be your best, and if your best in math is a C on your best day, then a C is what we, you know, high-five you for.Rachel: I really like that — leaning into strengths and challenges. Because sometimes it can be easy for us to say, well, you got an A in science, so that means you can definitely get an A in math too, right? And then that can feel really defeating for your kid, because maybe they can't get an A in math too.DeJunne': And this is coming from an educator. So when I tell my friends this, they're like, Oh my God, I can't believe like, you don't want, you know, you don't want to to breed this like Harvard, you know?Even with my youngest, who, you know, who performs really well academically, and at the end of the day, I just want to create human beings that are, you know, wonderful law-abiding citizens, that are helpful, that have good hearts, and who are proud of themselves because they showed up every day and did their best.And so sometimes you just need to lean into those strengths. And then really appreciating and celebrating the strengths that are nonacademic, right? So having and appreciating the fact that your student may not excel. They may be a straight C student. But they're an extremely talented artist. Or they can play an instrument really well. Or they excel in sports.And that's the thing that keeps them going. That's the thing that helps them show up to math class every day that they hate. But they're doing it because the goal that you set is, you know, for them in order to get to that area of strength and to continue in that, you sort of tied in, you know, well, you know, we're going to make sure that we maintain our C average in all these subjects in order to support your love of art or go to this art showcase this year, you know. And so you just want to make sure it all marries together.Gretchen: Well, I'm going to switch gears a minute and get to a kind of more nuts-and-bolts question. A lot of times for many kids, the new school year also comes with like new organization methods. Maybe it's like a new folder. Or maybe they've gone to like the Dollar Store and gotten some caddies to organize things in. And it's going to be great. I'm going to be so organized with my pens here and this here.And then perhaps after a month or two, all this flash of new caddies and whatnot starts to fall apart. Do you have any strategies for this — of how to set like organization kind of goals that will actually work and won't break the bank too?DeJunne': Yeah, this — honestly, a very transparent moment as a parent. This has been one that we've struggled with. We had a laundry list of things that didn't work. We've tried binders and dividers and labeled folders and journals and agendas. And I think that's sort of where you begin. You try. And if it doesn't work, you try a different way. And you just keep trying something until it works.And we've, for a number of years, lived for a checklist. I mean, checklists got us through everything — from waking up in the morning, to tying our shoes, brushing our teeth, you know, taking our medicine, getting out the door. If we did not have a checklist, it did not get done.And that's one thing that we realized: Our kiddo was a minimalist. So the more things we gave him, the more frazzled he would be and trying to remember how to use those systems. Right? So that's why we we sort of came to the conclusion of, Oh, this is why a checklist was so easy, because it was simple.And so now we function with one notebook. We don't even have the fancy notebook with the divided sections. Because we tried that — like math, science, social studies. Everybody's getting written in one section. We do one folder and pray to God that all the papers get into the folder. Sometimes they are crumpled up at the bottom of the book bag most times. Rachel: But they're there.DeJunne': Yeah, but they're there. And then his computer and his phone are the most valuable assets for us, because his phone, the notes app — and of course I'm talking about the oldest kid with the learning challenges — the phone, his notes app. It's a running record of God knows what, but it gets there. And then his computer because his teachers in the communication, everything is on that computer. That's what we've sort of teetered along those lines.But yeah, we've struggled through a number of years because we wanted it to be all nice and pretty with the caddy and the different colored pens and the highlighters and stickers and, you know, and that works for some. And I say, go for it. And Dollar Tree will be your best friend, you know? But for some, less is more.Rachel: So for families with kids who learn and think differently, and maybe they have IEPs or 504s and maybe they don't. But they still want to kind of level-set at the beginning of the school year. Who should they touch base with? Teachers or school counselors? Specialists? And like, when is the right time to do that? Should they wait for their parent-teacher conference? Or, you know, how much time should they give for a conversation to happen that's just kind of like, hey, just want to touch base.DeJunne': Yeah. So I want to preface my answer by saying, yeah, there are categories of parents who have sort of been in this space of students with learning differences. I would probably be categorized as the crusader parent, right? I've been in this fight for a long time. I am probably the one that's on the horse with the shield, you know, with the sword in the air leading the calvary behind me.And so have to say that, right, because it depends on where you are in this journey. So I say that because my answer is everyone. Who you should touch base with is everyone at the start of the school year. Elementary looks much different than high school. Those "everyones" look a little different on each campus.But I also say that with — I use the sort of target or dartboard model when I work with the "everyone," you know, sort of model. I look at those who are closest or have the most touchpoints to my kiddo. So I may start with his classroom teacher. And of course, elementary, you'll know, it's probably just, you know, one teacher and maybe the school counselor. That's your core.But if your kiddo has an IEP, then of course the core is the IEP teacher of record. Then maybe your next ring could be the assistant principal or the dean or whomever. He may have a next touchpoint with your kiddo. Maybe your kiddo has some behavior challenges, so you may want to reach out to the dean of students or the vice principal who handles your behavior, you know, concerns. And then the next one might be the principal.But are sort of these layers, right, that you're building out from? But at the end of the day, I need everyone to know, hey, here's my kid. He has an IEP. I want to make sure you're aware and that you have a copy, and that he has those things in place on day one. And that I am his parent and that I am here to support you and to support him. And reinforce what is happening in the learning environment. And I want to do this outreach campaign at the beginning of the school year.To your point, I don't wait to parent-teacher conference. Because those usually aren't scheduled until like September, October, and by then it's too late. I don't want to talk about how he's underperforming at that time. I want to get it out and get it ahead of time.Gretchen: Right. Because your kids are starting in August. So October would feel like a long ways in.DeJunne': Forever away. So we want to get it ahead of time. Some send letters. I'm sure we've seen all the the letters that float around on social media that introduces their kid. I think those are so cute. I like the in-person, you know, feel so that we can put a face to name. I don't want to give too much information. I want them to get to know my kid for themselves, and just give them sort of that surface level of information. But just really as an introductory.Gretchen: Well, I know we're close to our end DeJunne'. But I do have a question that I think a lot of families might be wondering about, which is, you know, school starts fresh, start, you know, reset. Maybe a month in, oh my goodness. Things have not gone as we thought.Like maybe there's some, you know, bad interactions with other kids or teachers, you know, like my teacher, I don't like them. Or, you know, there's been a couple of failed tests or whatnot. Who knows what it is. But this you know, it's not the the glory you had hoped for. So how do you not despair? How do you not despair as a parent? And how do you help your kid not despair when that happens?DeJunne': It's difficult. You just you want — your immediate instinct as a parent is probably to fix it, right? You just want to fix it. You want to make it all better. I'd probably say that if things are looking doom-and-gloom in the beginning, that there's probably, you know, some transitioning pains, some growing pains.Because remember, this is new, especially your younger kiddos, new teachers. You're not doing it like Miss So-and-so did it. This is not how I'm used to it being done. It's new for them. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily bad. It's just different, you know? And so helping them understand the difference will really help as you talk to them through those things.I could probably say that there's probably a lack of communication or miscommunication or misunderstandings somewhere. I don't recommend just, you know, jumping in to trying to fix it. You know, have conversations for the goal of understanding and be proactive versus reactive. Really get into there and, you know, work with your child's teacher. Or work with whatever information that you need to know to be able to gain an understanding and awareness of what's going on. Instead of, you know, having them just adapt. Like, oh, get over it, you know, you'll get used to it.Encourage them to self-advocate. You know, it's so important and it's so underrated to have kids have a voice. And I think it comes from that, you know, that old-school parenting, that mindset that kids are, you know, to be seen and not heard. And I think we've done such a great job of trying to change that and have our kids be heard as we talk to our kids more and give them a voice. And have them know that it's OK to speak up.You know, teaching them, like, how do I politely interrupt. You know, even like sort of the process by which we speak up and that we use our voice. And so encouraging them to self-advocate. So if something doesn't sit right or feel right, or they believe that they are misheard or misunderstood, then how do I tell my teacher that? So even just giving them permission to have dialog with their teachers that they want just a better understanding? I think that that's a great place to start.Rachel: Yeah, and the teachers appreciate that. The teachers appreciate that.DeJunne': Yeah. Yeah. And they should. And if they don't, then that's a different conversation we can have.Rachel: Yeah, well, that is all so helpful. I have one more question. Any other advice you have for parents and caregivers or maybe even for teachers and support staff as we get settled into the new school year?DeJunne': Give grace. Our kids are trying. And if they're not trying, find out why. And I think when we get to that, we'll discover those strengths and pull out the things that they need help discovering. And I think we'll get our kids, you know, those goals that we set for them, they'll accomplish. I'm excited for our kiddos.Gretchen: I'm excited, too. Especially after talking to you today. I feel like it was a pep talk for us. Thank you so much for being with us, DeJunne'.Rachel: Thank you.DeJunne': Thank you for having me again.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at InIt@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being in it with us.
Back-to-school anxiety in kids: What to watch out for
Some kids get anxious over the start of school every year. That’s especially true for kids who struggle with learning or with making friends, and those with anxiety.Here are some things kids are likely to be anxious about as school starts this year:Being behind and not being able to catch upNot knowing their teacherNot fitting in with kids in their new classNot being prepared for changes or not knowing what to expectSchool safety Kids may need extra support as they head back to school. But families and educators can ease the transition and help kids manage anxiety.
In ItExecutive function skills: What are they and how can we help kids build them?
Messy backpacks. Forgotten lunches. Missing assignments. How can we help our kids get organized this school year? Messy backpacks. Forgotten lunches. Missing assignments. How can we help our kids get organized this school year? What strategies can we use to support kids with ADHD and other learning differences? In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra get back-to-school tips from Brendan Mahan, an executive function coach and host of the ADHD Essentials podcast. Brendan explains what executive function skills are — and how we can help kids build them. Learn why we might be asking too much of our kids sometimes, and how to reframe our thinking around these skills. Plus, get Brendan’s tips for helping kids get back into school routines. Related resourcesWhat is executive function? Trouble with executive function at different ages Understanding why kids struggle with organizationEpisode transcriptAmanda: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It." On this podcast, we offer perspective, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences. We talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. I'm Amanda Morin.Gretchen: And I'm Gretchen Vierstra.Amanda: And this episode is for all those folks out there like me saying oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. How is it the start of a new school year already? How is summer over? And I don't know what I'm going to do because my kid doesn't know how to do school anymore.Gretchen: Yes, this transition can be especially stressful for parents of kids with ADHD and other learning differences. Maybe you had your systems down last year, like how to get your backpack organized or where your child does their homework after school. But will your child remember those things? And are those even the systems you need this year?Amanda: That's why we wanted to talk to Brendan Mahan. He's an ADHD and executive function coach. He's also got his own podcast, "ADHD Essentials."Gretchen: All right. Let's dive right in.Amanda: So Brendan, as an executive function coach, I would imagine that this start of the school year is a really busy time for you. What are you hearing from parents as they're facing down the beginning of a new school year?Brendan: It varies. Sometimes it's really specific. Like my kid struggled last year and I'm worried about how they're going to do it this year. Sometimes it's my kid's going into middle school, what do I do? Or my kid's going into high school, what do I do? Or I want my kid to get in a college and it's right around the corner — help. Like that. It's that sort of thing, right? But a lot of what I talk to parents about is like pump the brakes. Like, your kid is going to be OK. The school year hasn't even started that much yet.Amanda: OK. So I want to dig into all of that. But first, could you just explain what we're even referring to when we talk about executive function skills?Brendan: So executive function is the ability to do something, right? It's like the ability to execute. So planning and decision making, being able to correct errors and troubleshoot, being able to navigate it when things change and shift, when expectations are different and being able to handle that adjustment. It's understanding time and our relationship to it. It's sustained attention and task initiation. There's emotional control and self-awareness and self-understanding. It's kind of a broad category. There's a lot hiding underneath it.But it boils down to being able to do the thing. It's those adulting skills that, for one, we don't really expect kids to have yet anyway because it's developmental. But also we want them to have it before they're supposed to have it. And that causes its own sort of challenges.Gretchen: So I wonder, do kids tend to slide in executive function skills over the summer?Brendan: I don't know that they slide. I think the academic context of executive function slide. Sometimes we're still using some of those executive functions during the summer. Sometimes we're using more of some of them. You might have a kid who struggles to keep himself organized at school, right? But he's been playing with Legos all summer long and his Lego organizational skills are on point. And maybe that transfers to the classroom and maybe it doesn't.Summer is often when kids are much more self-directed. They're much more curious and exploratory. There's more space for that. So that stuff is going to grow when it may have slid during the school year, because they didn't get the opportunities that they might get during the summer.Amanda: I'm going to go back to something you said, though, because it piqued my curiosity. We expect kids to have executive function skills before they're developmentally ready for it. Why do we do that? Or how do we stop doing that? Or what should we be doing instead?Brendan: I'll go for all of it. Like, how big of a jerk do you want me to be?Amanda: Realistic. Let's go with realistic.Brendan: The answer to that, and this is me being a jerk, is kids not having executive functioning skills is inconvenient.Gretchen: Right.Brendan: Right? Like it makes our lives harder that they can't follow 10-step directions.Gretchen: Brendan, can you give a kind of a general overview of what skills I should expect of typical kids in like grade school and up? So I'm not asking for things I shouldn't get.Brendan: So breaking it down into, like, elementary school, middle school, and high school. It's at least academically how we break things down. So we should expect elementary school kids to be able to pay attention. But there's high school kids who have trouble with that, right? So like, that's kind of an illustration on executive functioning challenges. But broadly speaking, we're expecting elementary school kids to pay attention, control their behavior and impulses, follow one- to two-step directions, and be able to change their behavior to follow rules as necessary.Amanda: The kindergarten teacher in me is going to pop in here and say, "pay attention" is a really like nebulous one, right? Because when I was teaching kindergarten, it was like, pay attention for 10 minutes was about as much as they could could do, right? So I just want to caveat and say, yes, pay attention. I also think about how old the kid in front of you is, for how long they can pay attention.Brendan: True. And absolutely like 10 minutes for a kindergarten kid, and sort of add a few minutes per grade level kind of thing. But also, what does "pay attention" mean? Right? I'm really glad you called that out. Because for some teachers, "pay attention" means sitting with their back against the back of the chair and their legs against the bottom of the chair and their hands folded on their desk and looking at the teacher and — and like, I did that in school. And I did not know what was going on. Because my imagination is way cooler than anything my teacher had to say.Amanda: It may be time to narrate for our listeners that Brendan is standing up as he records, and I'm sitting a swivel chair and swiveling back and forth. Yet we are still paying attention.Gretchen: We're paying attention. So then what about middle schoolers that I know Amanda and I have.Brendan: And I do, too. Yeah. For the middle school kids, we want them to start to show that they can think in order to plan an action. We want them to be able to plan ahead to solve problems, even. Right? Like this is a problem that I might encounter when I do my social studies project or whatever. We want them to be able to follow and manage a daily routine. So an elementary school kid not knowing where they're going on a given day? We might not worry about that too much. Middle school kids, we start to go, oh, wait a minute, you should know what's happening. I want to caveat this, though, because some middle school schedules are a nightmare.Gretchen: A day, B day, short day.Brendan: Yeah. We also for middle school kids, we want to see them beginning to develop this skill of being able to modify their behavior across changing environments. Do we expect to see this because it's developmentally appropriate? Or do we expect to see this because that's how middle school works and it's necessary that they can? I don't know.Gretchen: It makes me think I'm asking too much.Amanda: Makes me think I'm asking too much, too.Brendan: Yeah. One of the things that I often talk about with my clients, with my coaching groups, is when a kid is struggling, we want to wonder: Is it the fish or is it the water? Right? Like, is this kid struggling because there's something going on with them? Or is it the kid's struggling because there's something going on with the environment that they're in? Probably it's both. And oftentimes we focus on the fish instead of looking at the water. So I tend to champion like, let's address the environment that the kid's in.Amanda: As a parent staring down the school year, what do I do right now to start bolstering those skills?Brendan: So if school hasn't started yet, I might be talking about things we can do during the summer to kind of get ourselves squared away so that the beginning of school goes more smoothly, right? Start going to bed a little bit earlier now, so that when school starts and you have to go to bed a lot earlier, you can make that transition more effectively. Or give your kids like a few more responsibilities for the time being, so that when school starts, you can take those extra responsibilities away and replace them with the school responsibilities that are coming. Which doesn't mean they should be writing essays at home. It just means that they should be doing a little bit more in terms of chores or something, so that they're used to not being as relaxed and on as much screen time as they were in the summer.And if school is already started, then it's like trust the teacher, right? Like let's communicate with the teacher. Let's find out what it is that they're doing in their classroom. Are they seeing challenges or red flags already for your kid, or maybe orange flags? Is there anything we need to be on top of right now? So don't wait until the problem happens, like solve the problem in advance instead of solving it after things have gone haywire. And pivoting really quick, because one thing I didn't do is I didn't talk about high school.Gretchen: Oh, yeah. High schools.Brendan: So emerging skills in high school: We expect them to start to be able to think and behave flexibly. We also want to see them begin to organize and plan projects and social activities. Now, social activities, yes. But like, why do they have to be able to organize and plan projects? Because that's how high school works, right? And that skill has been building since middle school, maybe even since late elementary school. But now we're starting to expect more independence and it should be an easier process.We also want to see them adapt to inconsistent rules. And it happens in lots of ways, right? Like I just left English class and now I'm in math class and I can't shut up because I was talking a lot in English and it was fine because we were doing group projects and now it's a solo thing in math, right? That's hard. But we start to expect that. Yeah, you have like three-minute hallway time and then you got to be ready to go behaving totally different for a new subject.Gretchen: That three-minute time is like, I've got to say, as a teacher, even I had trouble switching, right? You're going from one class to the next and there's no downtime to readjust. That's tough.Brendan: Yeah, but that's time on learning, right? That's like you've got to be learning, learning, learning. Which is silly, because we know we need time for our minds to wander in order to cement that learning and sort of lock it in. And if we don't give kids any time that's downtime to have their minds wander and be a little spacey, they're not going to be able to anchor in that learning as effectively as they might otherwise.Amanda: Well, I will say that as a parent of kids who have ADHD, I have often been the parent who was like, you don't have to go do your homework right away. And I know that that's sort of antithetical to like all what a lot of people say. You know, come home from school, do your homework, get it done, then do your other stuff. But my kids weren't ready to. They needed that time to sort of breathe or let their brains breathe or whatever they needed to do. We can have the homework station all put together, but it doesn't mean we have to put the kid at the homework station the minute they walk in the door.Gretchen: Right.Brendan: Right. And how much of that is coming from your own anxiety?Gretchen: Just get it done, man. Go to that seat and do it, right?Amanda: OK, so what's the conversation sound like if I am trying to get my kid in the game, get their head in the game, and not put my anxiety on them? What's that conversation sound like?Brendan: A lot of that conversation is happening inside of you and doesn't need to be shared with them, right? Like, because you got to work on your own stuff before you can have this conversation. You have to figure out what is it about, in this case, homework, and doing it as soon as I get home, or is having my kid do it as soon as they get home. What is it about that that makes it so important to me? It might be that transitions with your kid are wicked hard and you don't want to have another transition. You don't want to have to battle them to come and do homework at 5:00. So it's easier to avoid that battle because they're kind of still in school academic mode. So you can at least get them into it better.And that might be because you're doing it wrong in terms of what activities you're having them do before they do homework. Screen time is not a plan before homework, unless you know you can trust your kid to pull out of that screen and go into homework. If there's ever a battle around getting out of screen time, then they need to do something else before they do their homework.Gretchen: Yeah. That brings me to a related question, Brendan, which is sometimes kids have it together executive function wise, especially when they love something, right? But when they don't like something, all of a sudden I see the skills go away. And I wonder, OK, are they struggling or is it that they're just choosing to not have those skills in that moment because they don't want that for that thing?Brendan: When we're talking about kids, it is never useful to decide that they're choosing to not do or do anything. Because all that does is vilify the kid and make us, as parents, feel more justified in being meaner to them. Instead, we always want to assume that our kid is doing the best they can. And we always want to assume that they are trying to do well and want to please us. Those are my fundamental assumptions at all times. And have I screwed up? Yes. There was a period of time when my kid was struggling, like a lot of kids right now. Post-COVID, there's a lot of anxiety stuff going on with kids.My kid is one of them, man. And I was wrapped up in my own anxiety as a result of his anxiety, and I wasn't thinking as clearly. And we started battling. And we had one particular rough battle that my wife got caught in and I sat down on a bed. I can still see it. I can see myself sitting on the bed and going, I'm doing it wrong. Like we should not be battling. This is not the relationship I've had with my kid for the last 13 years. What am I doing wrong?And I literally went through in my head the slides of the parent groups that I run. And I hit this one slide that is like everyone is doing the best they can. Your kids want to please you. They want to succeed. And if those things don't feel true, it's because there's a skill set that's missing or there's a resource that they don't have that they need. And I was like, he's doing his best, and his best is not up to my standards. And that's because something else is going on. I knew what that something else was. It was the anxiety stuff that's going on. And I was just like, oh, the skill set that he's missing is the anxiety management skills that he needs.But it wasn't that he couldn't do the stuff that I want him to do. It was that he couldn't manage his anxiety. And the only reason I started banging heads with him was because I was so anxious that I couldn't bring the skills that I usually have to bear to navigate the challenges that he was facing and help him out. So it makes sense. It happened to both of us at the same time, and that's why we were banging heads. And our relationship changed from that day forward.Amanda: I'm going to push, though, a little bit, because I really I'm super curious about the kids who say to us, like, I'm just not feeling it. Like, is there something below that, you think?Brendan: What's below when you're not feeling it? Like there's times when we're not feeling it either, right? And there's something below that, too. Sometimes it's I haven't slept well for a week, and I'm just done. I don't have the mental capacity to do this. Sometimes it's I haven't moved my body in like a month and a half and that's affecting my get-up-and-go. Sometimes it's I'm chock-full of anxiety because someone in my house has a chronic illness or I'm afraid of COVID or or my parents are getting divorced or whatever, right?There's all kinds of reasons why kids might not feel it. And if they say, I'm just not feeling it, there's two really good responses. One is cool, then you don't have to do it. Like figure out when you can. Give me an idea when you might be able to do this, and we'll do it then. The other answer is, I totally hear you that you're not feeling it and I get it. I can tell that you're not feeling it, but unfortunately you still got to do it. How can I help you get this done?Gretchen: I like that language.You brought up not wanting to battle your child and none of us want to battle our child. But in thinking about going back to school, we might be getting feelings from last year of oh my gosh, the backpack was so disorganized. Oh my gosh, why didn't you bring home your homework assignments? So how can we start off the year better, but get some of those basic skills under control?Brendan: So I have some videos on "How to ADHD," Jessica McCabe's YouTube channel, on my Wall of Awful model. That is exactly what we're talking about right now. The idea behind the Wall of Awful is that — I'll do like a two-second thing. Watch the video. It's like 14 minutes of your life. The gist of the Wall of Awful is that, like, we have certain stuff that we do that we fail at or struggle with. And as a result, we get these negative emotions built up around that task. And we have to navigate those negative emotions before we can do the thing.So if we've battled with our kid about school a lot, as school comes back up, we have a Wall of Awful for navigating school as much as they do. So we get in a fight and argue about stuff. Just put your shoes on, or whatever. And sometimes it's that petty, right? Like we're yelling at our kid to put their shoes on, even though they have 10 minutes before they even have to get on the bus. And it's not about the shoes. It's about all of the battles we've had about school for the last seven years or whatever.So to get ahead of that, talk to your kids before school starts about how you have conflict when school starts. And ask them, like, what do you notice about this conflict? What do you need for me to help avoid this conflict? Or this is what I need from you to help avoid this conflict. What do you need from me to help give me what I need, right?Because that's what parenting boils down to. Parenting boils down to what does my kid need from me in order to be better? So whenever I have a conflict with my kid or my kid is struggling, I'm always asking them, like, what do you need from me? And sometimes what they need from me is for me to intentionally give them nothing so that they can figure it out on their own. Sometimes that's what I'm giving, is like independence.But if that doesn't work, I need to be ready, like a safety net with, like, other stuff, right? Like, oh, you also need me to, like, bust out a timer and remind you that those are useful. Or break this task into smaller, more manageable chunks. Or, as I had to do for one of my kids recently, text the dad of one of their friends that he wanted to hang out with, because he just didn't have it in him to text his friend. And we had that conversation. I was like, cool, then I'll text the dad. Not a big deal.Amanda: Sometimes my kid doesn't know. My kid's like I don't know what I need from you. So as parents, having those examples of what you can then say: Is it this? Is it this? Is it this? What else would you add to that list?Brendan: First I would add if the kid says "I don't know," say to them, "You don't need to know. I don't want the answer to this question right now. I can, like, take a few hours, take a day." Because when we put a kid on the spot, anxiety spikes, executive functions shut down. They don't know. But if we give them some thinking time and some grace, then they can come back later and tell us stuff. Or maybe not. Maybe they come back an hour later and they're like, I still have no idea.Then we start giving them examples — examples that are informed by what we already know about our kid. Do you need me to get some timers? Do you want to sit down with me and I can body-double you while you work on this? I got some knitting to do, or I have to pay the bills. Like we can sit at the kitchen table, you can work on your thing, I can work on my thing. Do you want help breaking this down into small, manageable chunks? I know sometimes you struggle with that a little bit. Would it be useful to maybe call up Sally and have Sally come over or do a Zoom with you and you guys can work on this together? Would that be helpful? Like, and something else that you thought of, because I am running out of ideas? Like, what do you think?Amanda: So we're all about executive functioning today, which always includes time management. And Brendan, I know you said you had somewhere to be. So I just want to thank you so much for sharing all of these insights and advice with us today.Gretchen: Yes, thank you so much, Brendan. So much for us to think about.Brendan: Thank you for having me.Gretchen: Brendan has lots more to share with families who are working on building their executive function skills. Go to ADHDEssentials.com. That's where you can also find his "ADHD Essentials" podcast.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Amanda: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Gretchen: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Gretchen: Thanks for listening and for always being in it with us.
Back-to-school concerns about your child: How to act on them
Back-to-school is anything but ordinary this year. You and your child might feel anxious about the return to school — whether it’s in-person, remote, or a combination of the two. That’s especially true if your child is struggling with learning or behavior. In this series, we talk about the concerns many families are coping with, and how to work with your child’s teacher to get ready for back-to-school this year.
In ItWhat if the teacher has learning differences, too?
Teacher Kara Ball shares what school was like for her as a student with dyslexia and dyscalculia, and how that experience shapes her work today.We all know that an amazing teacher can have a huge impact on our kids. But is that impact even greater when that teacher learns and thinks differently, too?In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra talk with Kara Ball, a teacher who’s “in it.” Kara shares what school was like for her as a student with dyslexia and dyscalculia, and how her interactions with teachers shaped her experience as a student. Listen in as we learn more about how Kara’s learning differences impact why and how she teaches — and especially how she engages with her students.Related resourcesWhat is dyslexia?What is dyscalculia? Understanding IEPsEpisode transcriptAmanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood.org. And I'm also a parent to kids who learn differently. And this is "In It." "In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. On the show, we talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. We're going to offer perspective advice, stories for, from, and by people who have challenges with reading, focus, and other learning differences. And I am so excited to be joined by my co-host, Gretchen Vierstra. Gretchen, want to introduce yourself?Gretchen: Sure. Hi everyone. I'm Gretchen, and I work at Understood with Amanda as an editor, and I'm a former classroom teacher. And gosh, when I was teaching, I wish I had known everything I know now from Understood. I'm also a mom of two, and Amanda and I talk about our kids all the time. So I'm happy to be doing this podcast with you, Amanda. Amanda: I am so excited you're doing this with me, Gretchen. And I'm really excited about this first episode of the season.Gretchen: Amanda and I have been thinking a lot about what a big transition this is right now for so many kids and parents heading back to school — like a real physical building — after a year or more of being remote.Amanda: I mean, on the one hand, let's be real. Many of us are so excited to get our kids out of the house. But on the other hand, over the past months, we may have learned things we didn't know about our kids as students, and may be a little worried that our kids' teachers aren't going to get them.Gretchen: That's why I wanted to talk to Kara Ball. Kara is an elementary school teacher in Maryland. She's a science and stem education specialist. And in 2018, she was a National Teacher of the Year finalist.Amanda: We wanted to talk to Kara not only because she's a great teacher, but also because she's someone who learns and thinks differently. She has both dyslexia and dyscalculia, which can make number-related tasks difficult. And she brings that perspective into the classroom in such a beautiful way. Gretchen: We started by asking her why she wanted to become a teacher.Kara: Yeah. So I am one of the few people that has always known that they've wanted to be a teacher. The first recollection I have of that is in the basement of my childhood home, my grandmother, who was a teacher, I gave me one of those classroom-in-a-kit boxes, where it would come with the chalkboard and the stickers and a red pen — basically everything you needed to be a teacher.And I would spend every summer in the basement of my childhood home, hoarding all of the handouts and worksheets that my teachers would give us to use in my classroom where my students — a class of three: my baby sister, baby brother, and my father who was by far, the most challenging student I've ever had as a teacher — would learn all about the things I learned in school. And I absolutely loved that classroom, but had a very difficult time being a student in the classrooms in the schools I attended. I wasn't diagnosed until third grade with dyslexia, and I made it all the way to sixth grade before I was identified as having dyscalculia. So reading was really challenging. Math was really challenging. School as a whole just seemed impossible. And when I was growing up, special education services were very much something you did in the, like, the classroom in the back of the building, out of sight, out of mind. And my dad who was also dyslexic, did not want me to experience that type of education.And I am lucky enough to have a grandmother who was a teacher, a dad who also identified like myself as someone being dyslexic, who advocated on my behalf to be able to have an inclusion model of education in which I received the services in the classroom, but were pulled out to be able to get the supports that I needed, which was kind of unheard of at the time. I mean, this was the late eighties, early nineties that I was in school. But even with those advocates, it didn't change that I went through the day to day, the school day, trying to — I remember choral reading where you would get a book and you would have to like read out loud of a certain passage. I would spend my entire like period not listening or comprehending everything else that was being read, trying to figure out how to read my little paragraph before they got to me, because I knew that I was going to stumble. I was going to make a mistake. And it was so stress-inducing that I would, I was the kid that asked for a bathroom pass. Anytime we had to read anything, I lied. I was like, I gotta go. Like I just had to get out, because I didn't want anybody to know how difficult it was for me just to keep up.Gretchen: First of all, that story is incredible. Going all the way back to when you were in the basement with that little red kit — I know that red kit, my kids play with that red kit, I think. At least they used to, not anymore. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got diagnosed? And when that happened how that felt for you?Kara: Yeah. So it was Miss Liddy. I have photographic memory, so I pretty much was able to memorize all of the books that we had in our classroom library. So no one caught it, up until third grade, that I couldn't read. My parents read to me. We had books at home. We went to the public library. It was just that it was twice as hard for me to learn how to read, to hold on to words.And she was the first teacher that started doing those small guided reading groups with me, and bringing in books that I didn't have access to in the classroom library that I couldn't listen to a peer read to me and then memorize it before I was assessed on it.Gretchen: So your cover was blown, right? Kara: Exactly. My cover was blown and she was like, "Hey, this might be why, you know, her writing and her print. And this might be why she inverses, you know, her speech sometimes." Like she knew. Amanda: Those moments where a teacher intervenes are so important. And it takes someone like Miss Liddy, who's really paying attention, who's picking up cues and not making assumptions about why a student is or isn't performing well. You know, and it reminds me of when Benjamin, my son, had a chance to talk to Kara about this on a webinar they did. He talked to her about his fourth-grade teacher, Mr. Sloteman, who realized that Benjamin actually paid attention better when he was doodling at the same time as listening. And then what Benjamin thought was so cool is that Mr. Sloteman made sure all the other teachers knew too, so that they could get a better understanding of Benjamin.Gretchen: I love hearing stories like that. I love it when a teacher really notices something about a student and pivots and makes that difference. And in fact, that happened for Kara a lot. She had some great teachers who really impacted her learning in a positive way. But there were also some cases where she had some negative interactions.Kara: For most of my, you know, K through 12 years, I felt like I was the dumbest person ever. As bad as that word is, that was the word that I would have chose because it's what I heard. It's what people said to me or about me, even teachers who, you know, thought I couldn't hear what they were saying because they were, you know, two feet that way, would talk about me in terms of all the things that I couldn't do rather than what I could do.When I hit ninth grade, I encountered a science teacher who would ultimately be the reason I became a STEM education teacher. And Mr. Dalton was somebody who, for whatever reason, looked at me as a less than C average student with an IEP and said, let's give her a shot. And he enrolled me in my first ever honors science class.And I still talk to Mr. Dalton today. He was the second person I told when I was named State Teacher of the Year. Because up until that moment in time, I thought that I wasn't a good student. And it was really interesting because it high school, I managed to have this amazing experience with Mr. Dalton, who got me into science, while simultaneously had my 10th-grade math teacher tell me in front of the class that I was stupid and never going to amount to anything. It still hurts my heart today when I think of how I felt in that moment. I left the class. I was never a rule breaker. I never walked out. I walked out of that classroom. But I walked out of that classroom and I walked to Mr. Dalton's classroom, because I had a safe space. I had a teacher who knew of me beyond what I showed on paper. And if I didn't have the Mr. Dalton, if I didn't have my grandma, if I didn't have my parents, that could have been the day I dropped out.I was a 10th-grade student that didn't have great grades, didn't think I was going to go to college, and had this basement dream of becoming a teacher. But everybody else but one person was saying it wasn't possible. And I didn't. I didn't drop out.Gretchen: Kara, when you were diagnosed then, did that change your perspective on learning? Kara: So it didn't. Like I knew the label. I never really saw the IEP paperwork as a child. I wasn't really in those meetings. I just kind of either had a calculator or didn't have a calculator. I either got to go in a private room or didn't go in a private room.And that's one of the things I work with my students on: understanding why they have these resources and how to be an advocate for themselves. Because a lot of people aren't going to just do it for you. You really have to know how to do it for yourself. And it's that conversation that shifted me to being more willing to talk about it. Because one of the biggest problems I have is that I know my students that have IEPs. I know my students have learning and thinking differences. But I don't hear about them as adults. They don't disappear. Like I'm not magically not dyslexic because I'm 19 and aged out of public school. What happens to you when you're an adult, and being able to show that you can have an IEP, you can be a successful, accomplished adult, you can go to college, is something that's not talked about. And I'm honest with my students, especially my older ones that, you know, it's not always going to go over well. Some conversations are going to have pushback. Like I've had employers where I've had to be like, "don't make me call a lawyer in" type of conversation. Like "I am entitled. I know my rights." But it's taken years of practice to get to that point, to stand up and be able to be an advocate for myself. Cause like, I don't have my parents in the corner. I mean, I could, I could call my mom at any moment and she'd be like, "I'm coming. Let me get the binder." I got years of documentation. But, like, I needed to be able to do that on my own. And it's because of the support systems that I have. And I'm hoping that I'm doing that for my students now.Gretchen: Speaking of families and parents — which by the way, I want to meet your mother with the binder, that sounds amazing — I'm wondering what advice do you have for families who are, you know, they're coming across this with their child for the first time. How can they talk to their teachers? How can they talk to their own child about this? Kara: So my advice to parents always usually starts with educating themselves. That's the first thing, is know your rights. I would love to say that all school systems are gonna follow the law, but that's not always the case. So it really needs to be on them to know their rights and what they're entitled to. And you get the little document at your first initial IEP meeting. Hold on to that. Read it. Do the research.Amanda: Then go to Understood to look at it because it's broken down better at Understood. The document that they give you is totally overwhelming.Kara: It is like you're in law school and are supposed to understand all of this.Amanda: Totally inadvertent plug there. It was just a matter of me thinking like what that document looks like and thinking how overwhelming it is to me. I have a degree in education. I'm a trained special education advocate. And I'm still panicking when they hand me that piece of paper.Kara: And then I would always say to approach any conversation you had with your child through the lens of empathy and compassion. Because you might not understand. Like now there are lots of groups on the internet you could connect with, find other people who might be having similar experiences. It's nice to be able to have a platform where you can share your frustrations, but at the same time, get help and support and something that is unique to you and your family.Gretchen: I'm just curious: Why STEM education? Because you know, for me, for example, growing up in school, math was not my strong suit or science, so I became an English teacher. So what drove you to STEM?Kara: I have always been that curious kid. I want to know everything about everything. And if I don't know, I need to look it up right away. My dad has a degree in biology, and when he saw the things that I was having a hard time with, rather than, you know, telling me to come and sit down and let's work through this textbook, we went out and we did it. So when I didn't understand geometry, we built a two-story treehouse. When I wasn't understanding force and motion, we went out and we made model rockets. We made pinewood derby cars. I was the first female participant in my brother’s pinewood derby for the Boy Scouts troop, and I won. Gretchen: Nice.Kara: But I do a fifth-grade pinewood derby unit with my students. I do a fourth-grade model rocket unit with my students. We design bridges. We do computer science. We do robotics. It's living through the learning as the thing that I really liked. And I also valued and appreciated that failure was celebrated and recognized as a natural part of the learning process, where in other practices and academic areas, with the exception of writing, we don't see that. In writing, you go through edits and drafts. And STEM, you go through iterations and revisions. But in math, you just have to fix it.Gretchen: Yeah. I hear what you're saying, right? The engineering, like the design engineering process, lends itself to this inquisitive trying out things, seeing if there's a new angle to do it. Not always having to stick to the same way of doing something and learning from mistakes. Kara: Yeah. The resiliency and perseverance that you have to learn through STEM education is something that I have always found my students who learn and think differently are better at than my students who have things that come pretty naturally and easy to them. They have the ability and the willingness to persist and to struggle and to productively struggle through things more so than some of their other peers. And all of a sudden, things that would seem so negative become a positive. They're like, oh yeah, I can do this. Like, let's go, let's try it again, try it again, try it again.Gretchen: You know, Kara made a really important point back there about how sometimes we forget that kids with learning differences grow up to be adults with learning differences. Right?Amanda: They don't just disappear. Although hopefully we help those kids develop the skills they need, so they know how to navigate those differences when they grow up.Gretchen: Kara told us a great story about what it's like being a grownup with dyslexia and dyscalculia.Kara: I had a really unique interaction a couple of years ago at a yard sale, which was a fully teachable moment. But I think one of the hard things is that my learning and thinking differences aren't visible to many people and they make a lot of assumptions, even as an adult.I was at a yard sale when somebody was buying something from my mom's table, and I was making change for them. But I used my calculator because I wanted to make sure that I gave the right amount back. And they just passively said, oh, you know, they don't teach math to these kids everyday. First off, I was older than they were. Second off, I was like, first, let me tell you a little bit about myself. So I have dyscalculia. I can't hold on to numbers or digits. I can't make change in my head. I still use my fingers to count if I don't have a piece of paper to solve it out. I have to put this in there because I just can't do it. It's not that I don't understand the sequence, the steps, the process, or the actual, like, you know, how to do the math problem. I just physically can't hold on to digits in my head. And they were actually very receptive to that conversation. They had never heard about that, and they had never taken it into consideration. But that is something I never would have done as a child growing up. I never talked to people publicly about it unless I had to in order to get ADA accommodations. If I had to, because I was going to enroll into a class and I needed my professor to know, but it was a private, behind closed doors. I didn't want to stand out or be seen as being any different than the rest of my peers.When I was named State Teacher of the Year, I had to discuss it with the people that I was working with. And they were like, why don't you talk about this? Like, this is really important. And I talked to my students about it, but I never talked to other adults about it. Because there's still that stigma of shame and embarrassment and not really understanding how to talk to people about it.Amanda: What do you say to your students?Kara: So I usually tell them, I say, oh, you know, it's really hard for me to learn how to pronounce words or, it's not that I'm bad at math. It’s that sometimes math is hard for me, but here is what I do. So like I got switched from fourth grade to fifth grade one year and they were doing partial quotient, and I needed to learn how to do that. And rather than learning, like after hours or during my planning, I told the students that I don't know how to do this. I want to learn with you. So I got myself a textbook and I learned right alongside my students. We went through the problems. I had a couple students that were more proficient at it than I was. And I said, this floor is yours. Like, you tell us how we should do this. Amanda: I have one last question for you. I'm going to ask you the tricky one. What would you say to the math teacher whose class you walked out of? What would you say to him today?Kara: So I actually got the opportunity to sit down with them. It's that I wanted to be the student that he wanted me to be. I don't want to have these problems. I don't want to have to work twice as hard. I was in your remedial math class and afterschool tutoring, like I'm not here because this is fun. And I just wish that he knew that I really wanted to be the student that he wanted me to be. But here we are. Amanda: Here we are. You amounted to a lot, and we are so glad that you came and spoke with us.Gretchen: And thank you for all of your honesty, Kara, and just for sharing your story in a fun way that other folks can relate to. Thank you so much.Kara: Anytime. Thank you so much for having me.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood PodcastNetwork. Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it.Gretchen: Share it with the parents you know. Amanda: Share it with somebody else who might have a child who learns differently.Gretchen: Or just send a link to your child's teacher. Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need. Gretchen: Go to u.org/init it to share your thoughts and also to find resources from every episode.Amanda: That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash in it.Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: “In It” is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood.Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry our production directors. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.
Back-to-school making you and your child anxious? These strategies can help
Q. My child always feels anxious when it’s time to go back to school — and so do I. How do I help us both calm down? A. Back-to-school anxiety is common for both kids and parents, especially when school is a struggle. Some kids feel anxious about going back to school because of their experiences from the year before. (Parents can feel that way, too.) Some kids have social anxiety. They may worry about having a new teacher — or even about new kids in the class. And some kids feel anxious about having to sit still in class. It’s also common for kids to have “jitters” or feel nervous about beginning something new. They may be thinking about what could happen in the new school year. These feelings are often temporary. But in the meantime, they can affect the whole family. Parents can help by validating feelings and offering perspective. For example, “I know last year was hard. I can understand why you’re feeling nervous. But this is a new year and a new teacher. And we’re here to support you.” Parents may feel nervous about school starting again, too. If you’re feeling a bit anxious, take a moment to think about your own time in school. Think about your interactions with teachers and peers. Take note of your thoughts and feelings. Then think about the positive outcomes the new school year can bring. This will help you to lead by example when helping your child express their own thoughts and feelings. If you find your anxiety is hard to manage on your own, consider talking to a friend or a counselor. Planning ahead can also make it easier to feel less anxious. See if you can chat with your child’s teacher before the school year begins. Ask how you can work together to provide support in the classroom. If your child has an IEP or 504 plan, make sure it’s up to date. You and all your child’s teachers should have copies.Finally, make going back to school a pleasant, positive event. Plan a big first-day breakfast. Talk about all the things your child is excited about, like seeing old friends, or getting to join a club they’re interested in. And, above all, let your child know that you’ll be there for them, every step of the way. Anxiety that doesn’t go away or that makes it hard for someone to function could be a sign of something more serious. For example, a child might become so anxious that they have trouble going to school at all. Or a child may not be able to stop thinking about a negative experience from last year. If you notice that your child’s anxiety seems overwhelming, consider getting help from a professional.Get tips on how to manage your child’s back-to-school anxiety.Download this plan to help your child start the new school year right. Learn five things you shouldn’t say to kids about the new school year.
In ItCan we talk? Omicron, school, and our parenting fears
Living in a pandemic is hard. With the latest surge in COVID-19 cases, it feels even harder. How do we start off yet another year in a pandemic? Living in a pandemic is hard. With the latest surge in COVID-19 cases, it feels even harder — and not just for parents of kids who learn differently. In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra invite you to join them in a collective scream about Omicron, school, and parenting. Listen as they ask themselves how to start off — and make it through — yet another year in a pandemic. While they don’t have answers, they hope you find comfort in knowing you’re not in this alone. Related resources4 tips to build kids’ empathy during COVIDHow the stressful news affects how kids learn and thinkWhy we’re not calling it learning lossEpisode transcriptAmanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin.Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, and this is "In It." Today we are actually breaking form to do something a little different. Amanda: We would love to invite all of you to join us — vicariously, anyway — in a giant collective groan or scream, whichever you prefer. Gretchen: Oh, God, living through a pandemic is so hard. And we all already know that. We've been doing it now for about two years.Amanda: But this latest wave is bringing up such new challenges, especially for anyone who cares about kids who learn differently, who has kids who learn differently, who teaches kids who learn differently, who knows kids who learn differently.Gretchen: Exactly. So let's start local then. Amanda, how are things for you and your family in Maine?Amanda: I mean, the good news is we're all healthy right now, right? And so, you know, we went through our bout of COVID. Maine's hit pretty tough right now, though. Our hospitalizations are up high. People are getting COVID, and it means that schools are rethinking how they deliver services, whether they're going to be online or whether they're going to be in person, whether they do pool testing, how do they do social distancing. And you know, I have a sixth grader. We ended up getting COVID in October before he was able to be vaccinated. And he was afraid to go back to school yesterday because he didn't want to bring it home again, and I felt terrible.Gretchen: How did you handle that? How did you help him go to school?Amanda: I just, you know, put his boots on and said "Go.” No, I'm just kidding. I mean, the best I could do was say, "It wasn't your fault, you know? Like, none of this is your fault." And I think for so many kids like mine who have, you know, anxiety or worry about things or think deeply about things, I think they don't understand what's within their control and what's not within their control. How's it going there? I mean, what's it like in the Bay Area for you right now? Gretchen: California feels OK so far. I don't know, maybe I'm just oblivious to the news. But I would say that for us, the main thing was anxiety over "Oh my goodness, does this mean Zoom school again?" Because I also, as you know, have a middle-schooler. So she started her sixth-grade year on Zoom, right? So this is the first year in an actual building as a seventh grader. And that was the first thing. "Oh no, please. No. No online school. I can't do it again. I can't do it again."Amanda: You know, it's interesting. I'm going to actually see if our producer, Julie, would hop in. Because she's in a totally different state. You know, you're in California, I'm in Maine. Julie, you're in New York. Yes?Julie: Yeah, I'm in New York. I also have a middle-schooler. She goes to a huge school. And her first day back, she found that out of 29 kids in her class, 19 came to school. And we don't know if kids were staying home because they were sick or because they were just fearful. There's just a constant question. You know, is it right to send your kid into a school, which realistically I don't think can fully ventilate, where they — I don't believe are actually doing any testing? So it's hard. Gretchen: I mean, let's face it, middle school is hard enough as it is. Then on top of it, you're adding a pandemic. And then on top of that, you're adding maybe missing out on services that you can't get provided if the school's not able to fully, you know, run up to function or whatnot. Amanda: And on top of that, you're adding the "Well, if I test positive, did I get that from one of my friends? Did I give that to one of my friends?" Like, I think there's all this stuff tied into it.Gretchen: So then I think, too, you know, with all of this with having to maybe up your mask game, right, to a mask you don't want to wear, and maybe having the pool test when you don't really want to do that. There's probably kids right now out there who are saying, "I don't want to go into a physical school building anymore." And I know that we have an upcoming episode actually of "In It," where we talked to two parents of a child who during the start of COVID did not want to go to school. And for parents like that, this might be a time where that comes to fruition again, where kids don't want to go to school. And what are they to do? Amanda: I know, right? And it's so funny because when we recorded that episode with that family, we didn't anticipate that it might be something that would come up again. So I've been thinking about them actually and wondering how their son is doing, going back to school again during what seems to be another wave of the pandemic. For me, what I found is the best we can do is acknowledge that this is unusual. Not something we ever expected, that it has gone on for a really, really, really long time. I mean, I think this is the time where my skills as a mother feel most tried. I don't know about you. But yes, I'm frazzled. I'm exhausted. I'm trying to keep up with the latest and I don't — I don't always know how to say I'm confident because I don't feel confident as a mom right now.Gretchen: This is such a hard time for families and such a hard time for teachers yet again. And so I think about that side of it too, right? Like, we're stressed, our kids are stressed, and then there's teachers who maybe a lot of their colleagues are out sick. Amanda: Well, I don't know about you. I've also heard from some of my teacher friends that they've had colleagues decide to not teach anymore, which, yeah, I can understand. And also, I think it's such a loss. I think it's a loss for our students, especially in special education or students who had found their person. Gretchen: I think you brought up a really good point. And I'm thinking back to our conversation with Kareem Neal about learning loss and how connections with teachers and staff is so important. And sometimes maybe it's not going to be the teacher that your child currently has. And so this might be the time we have to start thinking outside the box. Who can, you know, our kids go to for connections at school? If, you know, our kid's teacher's out sick or — I mean, who knows what's going on? You know, I just don't know. But it's just time to remember that the school is a huge community and there are connections to be made outside of just your child's teacher.Amanda: Yeah, one of the things that online learning did was sort of broke down some of those walls, right? Everybody had their Google classroom or their Zoom classroom or whatever classroom, and kids had their teachers' email addresses and those kinds of things too. I think it's probably worth remembering that the teacher your child connected with last year is probably somebody they could get in touch with again if they needed to. You know, and for me, I'm really hoping that we can figure out ways to keep schools open that are safe. Because I think you're absolutely right about keeping those connections. And not just for the kids, for the teachers, too. I want to be able to have people be safe and together, you know?Gretchen: Yeah, I mean, because we all know that the isolation of the pandemic has been hard on our kids.Amanda: Yeah. Gretchen, what's your word of advice to the parents like us out there? Gretchen: Oh, I, you know, I'm a planner. I love to plan ahead. I always like to think way ahead and I have had to adjust. And I think that's one word of advice is just we can't plan, you know, out way in the future. In times like this, we plan day by day. And we just — I personally have to figure out how to live with that. And that's hard for me. But I'm trying and I'm breathing and — what about you, Amanda? Amanda: I'm not good at that, either, so I will take that advice if I can. But I think for me, it's about remembering what I can control and what I can't control, and teaching that to my kids, too — that some of this is just not in my control. And that we're all going through this, right? So I don't know if that's advice necessarily, but it's a reminder: We're all going through this in one way or another. So when it feels really isolating, at least we're all feeling isolated together. I'm going to put our producer, Julie, on the spot again and see if she has any wisdom. Julie: Oh, I'm going to cut all of this. I think one thing I'm just thinking is that one size doesn't fit all, and I think I see a lot of arguments between people who are like, "How can schools not be open?!" versus "How can schools be open?!" And they're mad at teachers and they're mad at their department of education, they're mad at other parents. And I just think that the solution that works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another one, and that we just have to know that we all want the best for our kids and hopefully for our teachers and for our school systems. And that if we could all step back and just recognize those differences. They don't have to be political differences. They don't — they're not even scientific differences. They're just we have different needs. Yeah, but also I'm just thinking, you know, the temptation if you don't send your kids to school is just to kind of disappear, I think. And I'm thinking it could be really important for kids or parents to reach out to teachers and say, "Hey, this is what we're thinking. This is why we're not there right now. We'd like to be or we hope to be." Because I just — I think we are all sort of folding in on ourselves and feeling isolated. It could still be a conversation.Gretchen: Everyone's situation is different, right? For some people, going to school is a necessity because it's going to enable you to work. For others, sending the child to school — you fear they might get sick, which will not enable you to work because now you can't work because you are sick. Or your caretaker, you know, for your child, is someone older and you're afraid of getting them sick. So now you're not using that caretaker anymore. And so now how are you working? Even if you are working from home, there could be a toddler running around you again with, you know, nothing but "Sesame Street." Amanda: And maybe that's part of it too, right? Like, maybe there's a component of this where we have to remember to give everybody grace. The rules just change, and assuming that everybody's making their decisions based on the same criteria, it's just — it's not reasonable to think that. I'm not even sure I make my decisions on the same criteria day by day, to be honest.Gretchen: I know, and sometimes I question all of my decisions, you know? Amanda: Just know, we're always in it with you. And this is what we wanted to say to you today. We're feeling the same things and dealing with the same things and making the tough decisions, and we kind of want to know how you're doing, too, right now. So email us if you have a chance. You can email us at init@understood.org. You can leave us a message at 646-616-1213, extension 703. That's a whole lot of numbers. Let me give you that again. It's 646-616-1213, extension 703. We want to know how you're doing. So, you know, we might share it on a future episode, or we might just play it over and over again for Gretchen and I to feel better and know that you are in it with us. Gretchen: Exactly.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Gretchen: Share it with the parents you know.Amanda: Share with somebody else who might have a child who learns differently.Gretchen: Or just send a link to your child's teacher.Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need.Gretchen: Go to u.org/init to find resources from every episode.Amanda: That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash in it. Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are production directors. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.
Back-to-school: A 4-week plan for a great start
Is your child heading back to school soon? There’s a lot going on — and a lot to keep track of. Download this one-month planner, which has daily tips to help your child start the new school year right.
In ItSummer survival guide: Hacks to help your family thrive
Summer break. Some families love it. Others dread it. No matter how you feel about summer, we’ve got hacks to help your family thrive. Summer break. Some families love it. Others dread it. No matter how you feel about summer, we’ve got hacks to help your family thrive. In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk all things summer with psychologist and Understood expert Dr. Andrew Kahn. Andy shares what can make summer easier than the school year for kids who learn and think differently — and what might make it harder. Tune in for tips on screen time, sleep, summer camp, travel, and more. Plus, learn ways to give kids the structure that many of them need over summer vacation without it feeling like a burden.Related resources How to make a sensory travel kit for your child10 tips to help kids avoid travel meltdowns and sensory overloadListen to this episode of In It to hear more about summer camp Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs…Rachel: …the ups and downs…Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today, we're here to provide a public service by pulling together as many tips and hacks as we can to help you and your kids have the best summer possible.Gretchen: Joining us for this ambitious mission is our very own Andy Kahn. Andy is a licensed psychologist and the associate director of behavior change and expertise here at Understood. Andy, welcome back to "In It."Rachel: Welcome back.Andy: Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me.Gretchen: We are so happy to have you here today. But before we start with you, Andy, I actually have a question for you, Rachel.Rachel: Oh, yeah?Gretchen: Yes. As a mom to two kids who learn and think differently, what comes to mind when you think about the long summer vacation that is fast approaching? Are you like, "Woohoo, summer!" Or is it more like, "Ugh, summer"?Rachel: Those are my choices?Gretchen: Yes, those are your choices.Rachel: So, it's a little bit of both because, of course, it's really nice to have a break from a lot of the things that just make the school year tough for everybody — homework and just kind of like the tight schedules. But also, the summer has its own kind of schedule, especially when there are camps involved. And so, there still is a wake-up time and there's still a get-out-the-door time.And also, for all of us working parents, there are still like, we need our kids to be doing some stuff while we're working. And also, because I can't have just like screen camp.Gretchen: Yes, I'm pretty sure a lot of times I had TV camp when I was little. I went to TV camp.Rachel: Yeah, I went to TV camp.Gretchen: Andy, did you go to TV camp?Andy: I did not. I went to get out on the street and play until it gets dark camp.Gretchen: Yeah, I did that, too. I would say it was a mix, right? It was a mix of roaming the neighborhood and then a little bit of TV camp.Rachel: All right, so, Andy, stepping back a bit, maybe you can talk to us a little bit about what might make summertime easier than the regular school year and what might make it harder for families with kids who learn and think differently.Andy: Summertime, you know, summertime is that double-edged sword, right? We all look forward to it. There are things that we don't have to do anymore that seem awfully cool and longer days, relaxing structure, fewer transitions relating to school. But those of us who are parents can all say, I know what August feels like and thinking "I'm ready to bring my children back to school." Right? So, I think so much of it is we think about the break from the academic demands, and the stressors is a really big deal for kids with learning and thinking differences. And it's a good relief to be away from that because it can be such an impact to kids' self-esteem.And the thing about having the summertime is, is giving them more time to play, to engage in activities that are more their home base. And I think that's one of the best things about summer for kids. At the same time, the things that make it great are also the things that make it hard. We rely on the structures that schools artificially provide us to structure our day, and that's a lot of months of the year where we sort of live our lives around those markings in the day. And I think that the loss of structure is probably one of the toughest parts about this.You know, it's tremendous amounts of transition stressors from the doing the things I like, to doing the things I don't want to do, in a structure where the parents don't necessarily feel all that powerful because the first thing we want to do as parents when summertime hits is to say," Go, enjoy, step away," and we let it all go. And I think that's where the first trap lies, is that if we don't have good expectations, you know, those who fail to plan, plan to fail, right? That's the sort of idea here.Gretchen: So, now if we want to provide a little bit of structure to our summer, what are some little tweaks that we could make to add some structure to a day?Andy: So, the thing to keep in mind is that — and I hear this in your tone a little bit, Gretchen — that when we get to freedom, the word structure feels like a dirty word. It feels like, "Oh, gosh." Like structure is not constraints, OK? It's not, you're not tethering your child to the porch. You're not locking them in a space, OK? Structure is about creating protective walls around your environment, your child, and don't forget, your sanity.So, having structures like keeping your, like, your mealtimes for breakfast and dinners as close to on some reasonable schedule to keep you feeling sane. Having structures around chores and hygiene. Because the first thing that goes with these kids is we lose our bath times and they're being more active, and you really want to keep sort of those keeping the kids clean and on certain points of schedule really in check.So, I think that we can create sort of anchors for your day to keep you sane and talking each morning or the night before with your child about "What's tomorrow looking like? Let's set some expectations here so that we can sort of have a sense about what we're going to do." Because if it's unrealistic or doesn't fit the timeframe, you can help them plan something that they can be successful with instead of frustrated in coming to you every 15 minutes.And for me, as a working parent, I can't do that with my child. They have to be able to sort of hold their own during the times that I need them to. And that requires a little bit of planning and a little bit of structure.Gretchen: Yeah. What's often happened at our house is I'll ask that question, and the answer I've been given is, "Oh, I'm going to have a chill day." Like, what is a chill day? What does that mean?Rachel: Right.Gretchen: And then that lasts for like maybe an hour or two after, you know, the breakfast and the getting dressed and all that stuff, and then it's like, "I'm bored. I'm bored. I'm bored."Andy: And I think that some of this, you know, some of the activities you can get your kids engaged in can be things that, let's think about it here, OK? Part of the structure of summer is giving your kids the opportunity to learn some life skills. A life skill can be something simple like I'm going to pick the, you know, most nutritious box self-made foods, whether it's a simple cookie mix or it's a simple food mix, that we can get them involved in some cooking, OK? I love the idea of things like food science projects. There are some great books out there on food science, complete cookbook for young scientists and learning about what makes food yummy, what makes food fun, and kids learning sort of that technique for being more independent.And the other kind of project-based stuff we can do, you know, in some schools that I've worked with over the years, when we had kids who had learning and thinking differences who didn't engage easily in the standard curriculum, we did a lot of project-based learning. So, we would do things like "Let's build a box for, you know, putting our materials in things that we like." Like I have a box now for my Pokémon cards with this kid that I work with and giving them the opportunity through these projects to follow instructions, which includes wait, wait for it: reading. OK?Gretchen: Right.Andy: Following directions. What is this? This is about executive function. So, those project-based activities are really, really awesome.Rachel: So, we talked a little earlier about TV camp, and that raises the question now about screen time and how much we should be leaving the door open for in the summer. What do you think about that?Andy: Gosh, that's a tough one. So, I could be the good psychologist to say "You know, The American Academy of Pediatrics says we should limit it to..." you know, and they say something in the neighborhood of about 2 hours.Rachel: No one does that.Andy: And I think the initial recommendations...Right. Because I think for a lot of this, you have to leave adequate space for screens if you've got a teenager who's highly reliant on social media. And you have to sort of be aware of what the culture is doing for the kids. I've actually gotten to the point with my own child where we've had consequences for behavior. OK, we'll just say there was naughty moments and I actually had to make the decision to do something different than I was raised with, which is your screens are gone when you got in trouble when I was a kid.But today I have to be super conscious of that because if I cut off all screens for my teenager, I'm actually isolating them from their social world. And if they're having trouble with their behavior because the social world is hard and they're not connecting as well as they'd like, cutting that off in full form isn't always my best option. That being said, I really like to limit the time by creating other activities for them to do that are non-screen based.So, you might say, OK, there's a window of time this morning, you know, screen use is fine, but then you set an island of time somewhere in the middle of that morning where you're going to disengage them from that. Ultimately, the goal is to give them a variety of things to do that can be fun for them. Make sure that you're aware if you're limiting some of those screens, that there's time available for them to socialize.Rachel: Mm-hmm.Andy: And that you try to provide reasonable access to in-person social activities whenever possible because that's going to be really important for them.Rachel: Yeah.Andy: Really important.Gretchen: Yeah. I want to mention one thing related to this before we go on with the non-screen time activity. Good old-fashioned games and by house, and we see summer definitely whether you're traveling or like we go camping, we always bring games along. But there's sometimes tears over games, right? When someone doesn't win or just gets too competitive. Do you have any advice around this for families who might struggle with picking out the type of game that'll work for their kids?Andy: One of the things that I notice and being a psychologist who works with kids, playing lots of games during the course of my life and realizing at times that the competitiveness of it can lead to a lot of feelings, especially for kids with learning and thinking differences who may struggle with waiting their turn or struggle with following the rules or not knowing the order of certain activities when they have a turn to play.So, one of my favorite workarounds is spending some time and energy on cooperative gaming. So, cooperative gaming is this a lot of Kumbaya, you know, certificate of, you know, of attendance appreciation thing? No. These are real games with outcomes that you can win, but you win it together. So, there are games like Pandemic. Now, this was, I had this game before the actual pandemic.Gretchen: Yeah, I had that pre-COVID.Andy: But you're working in teams to try to solve a larger goal. And, you know, some of these games are really great because you have to communicate, you've got to strategize and you've got to work together. Other games like Hanabi, which is a really cool game — Hanabi I think is Japanese for fireworks — and you as a team create the best fireworks displays, but you have to strategize to make them go correctly or they don't fire off correctly. No, you're not, there's no fire here — sorry, kids, you're not blowing anything off. But it's a really cool game with a lot of visual elements.Rachel: Yeah, there was a cooperative game that we haven't played in a few years now that my kids are a little older, but it was really great when my daughter was like around six called Outfoxed.Andy: Yeah.Rachel: It's kind of like a whodunit, like a mystery solving, but everybody's working together kind of game. And that was a decent cooperative experience in my not-always-very-cooperative house.Rachel: You know, I want to talk a little bit about summer camp, which does provide some structure, but it sometimes also introduces other challenges.Gretchen: Right. If your kid has a hard time adapting to new places, new foods, new activities, new people. But we do have some suggestions for you. One suggestion I have that's worked for me and my kids is, especially when my older daughter was younger, she really had trouble adjusting to new situations and so we would preview the activities. Like I remember one time I signed her up for a YMCA camp and they were going to take the kids to an amusement park and she was scared to go to this amusement park.So, I found, you know, people take videos of the rides, even the littlest rides. And so, we found videos of the rides and said, "OK, this is one ride. Would you do this? Let's watch the video." And it really helped her prepare so that she could actually enjoy her time on this trip.Rachel: That's a really great idea. And actually, I did a similar thing. There was a summer camp that my son was going to when he was going into first grade, and he was going to like session two or whatever. So, it was already going on, but he wasn't there yet. And I'm like, "You know what? Let's just go check it out." I called and asked if we could do this, but he didn't know that. And we just went. And, you know, as far as he could tell, we were just like, "Hey, can we see the camp?".Gretchen: Right.Rachel: And they just gave us I mean, I already knew what it was before I signed up and paid for it, but for him, it was like he saw other kids doing the stuff that he would be doing. And it really it helped so much to give them that context and like, just set their expectations a little bit.Gretchen: Hmm.Andy: What an anxiety reducer that's got to be.Rachel: Yeah.Andy: You know, when things are new, they're exciting and also scary at the same time. And to take away just a little bit of that, the scary novelty, makes a huge difference. Yeah, I think that's super smart.Rachel: So, last year "In It" did a whole episode about summer camp. And Gretchen, you and Amanda Morin got some great advice from Audrey Monke who's been running a summer camp for almost 40 years and wrote a book called Happy Campers. So, let's listen to a clip about that.Audrey: I have a, you know, a special affinity for the overnight experience because of the immersion piece of it and the independent piece of it. I think it's a pretty magical thing for young kids to have this like time away from parents to really discover themselves. And I think part of that is we're so well-meaning as parents and we love our kids and we want to be there with them for everything they do because it's so fun to watch them learn new things and all this.But a lot of the growth that our kids will experience in life happens away from us. You know, that look that even little kids will, you know, they're about to do something new and they turn around to look just what the expression is. "Is this safe? Should I try this?" And even when we're not trying, our expression sometimes it's like, "Oh, my gosh, that looks scary." Or "I don't know if I want to do this." So, there's just this part — and it's not just camp, it's also allowing our kids with other mentors and adults and clubs, letting them grow their wings, sometimes without us.Gretchen: So, speaking of something that can be exciting but also uncomfortable sometimes, a lot of families take advantage of summer break to go someplace, whether that's by car. They can even do a staycation and kind of just go to new places around town. But that also brings new challenges, right? New environments, new sensory experiences, all of that. So, Andy, do you have some tips for how to make travel a little easier for families with kids who might find it difficult?Andy: For sure. So, one of the most important things about planning travel with your kids is really spending the time in advance to get a sense of the logistics. How long are you going to be in a car if you're going somewhere or if you're flying? What kind of environments are you going to be in for your child and making sure that you have a sense about what you can give your child that's portable, that can help them control some of that sensation that's new or loud or uncomfortable. So, things like having noise-blocking headphones, if possible, lots of sort of self-soothing items, whether it's a squishy animal or sort of like a fidget-like activity.Then giving them the opportunity really to be able to manage their body and in some cases to practice that in advance and to talk to them about, you know, let's say we're going to be driving through New York City, OK? They're going to be speed around you of people and things moving colors, lights, maybe in a language they've never heard before. I don't know. That may happen. And things that people say and do that can be stressful to them. So, giving them the opportunity to think about what kind of things would help them feel soothed.Gretchen: Yeah.Andy: The other piece of this is — within reason again, where we're going to right-size all of our interventions here — let your kids be involved in helping you plan parts of the vacation that they can handle. So, if you know you're going to this very specific town where your hotel is going to be or where your family lives that you're visiting, letting them pick a restaurant that you can likely go to that has a menu that they like or giving them the opportunity to sort of select one of the activities from the choices that you preselect.Kids are usually accessories to family vacations as opposed to the ones you really put in on paper and make it happen. And I got to tell you, when I was a kid and my father would say, "Which of these things do you want to do?" When he handed me that, I'm going to date myself now, he handed me the triptych from Triple A,Gretchen: Oh yeah.Andy: where you have to flip through the pages and look over the maps to see where we were going. Yes. pre-GPS day kids.Gretchen: Yes.Andy: I felt that was really like, that was my vacation. It wasn't my parents taking me somewhere. So, I think, you know, we talk about that in school. Kids have agency when they feel like that they have ownership and engagement and choice. And vacations are no different.Gretchen: Yeah. And I like, you know, what you said about packing things that can help with soothing when you're in a new environment. One of my favorite things, actually on Understood's website is something we have called a sensory travel kit, and it talks about the types of things that you could put in this kit to, you know, like you said, headphones for noise.Perhaps your kid really likes to be chewing on something so like a crunchy food or soft food, sometimes texture, right? Like when you travel to Grandma's house, her towels are different than yours. Then why can't you bring one of your home towels so that your kid feels comforted by the same feeling of the towel? And I will say the ultimate favorite tip on this list, which I have used personally, is to bring Post-it notes for the sensors on automatic toilets. Because when my kids were little, they did not like the surprise it brought. And so having that Post-it and sticking it over the sensors,Rachel: This is genius.Gretchen: was a game changer. So, check out that sensory tool kit on our site. I will definitely put the link in our show notes.Rachel: So, Andy, the last thing we want to touch on today is sleep. And this is a big one. It's a little less fun. But, you know, we know that having a regular sleep schedule is really helpful for kids and for grown-ups who have a hard time getting enough sleep. And in the summertime, I am again torn.So, my kids are on a break, and, you know, that seems like a great argument to say, well, they should be allowed to just kind of stay up and hang out until whenever. So, let's say, you know, obviously, if there's a camp schedule or a get-out-the-door time, that's a little bit different. But if it's this sort of like open time in the summer, what do you think about bedtime and sleep schedules?Andy: So, I'm a little bit of a curmudgeon here with this stuff. You know, the bottom line is that if you have a learning and thinking difference or you have your kid as ADHD, one of the things that is most effective in helping your child navigate their own neurology is to be well rested. And you know, what have I said to you during summer break, I'm just going to let my kids skip as many meals as they want, eat at three in the morning, you know, we would not look at that in the same light.And yet with sleep, we are very much cavalier about how much we let sleep go. So, I would say that, listen, a lot is going to depend on your own household. In my household, we have working parents. So, if my child's up until 2:30 in the morning, then sleeps in, we're going to have conflict of stimulation, meaning I'm going to be up in the morning making noise. And I'll be honest, I'm not going to be really tiptoeing around because I have to work eight feet from your bedroom door.Gretchen: Yeah.Rachel: Yeah.Andy: So, within reason, giving them some flexibility for when they go to sleep. But I really want to keep sleep and wake times within a reasonable window. I never want to go too far, maybe more than an hour max, maybe 90 minutes more on either side, because the reality is they need it. If they have growing bodies and keep in mind that this affects all members of a household. So, if you've got to get up in the morning and your kids are forcing you to stay up later and you're not getting self-care as a parent, that's going to weigh you down.And by the time you get to late July, early August, you're going to be looking to, you know, "Can my kids start school early?" Because it's really maddening to folks. So, a little bit of flexibility is, OK, if you guys are away and let's say you do a Disney vacation and they have, you know, a 10:30 fireworks show or whatever. These are things you have to flex for, and you just say, "OK," your kids will recover. But again, you can't wear your kids out. They're going to get sick more often if they're not sleeping.Gretchen: Yeah.Andy: It makes it a lot harder.Gretchen: Yeah. And then if you really get them off schedule, the adjustment back to school is so tough.Rachel: Yeah, it's like jet lag. Yeah, it’s like if they're just shifted where even if they're getting the right, the quote right amount of sleep, but it's starting 2 hours later than it should.Gretchen: Yeah.Rachel: And then they're getting up like, you know what feels like lunchtime then what?Gretchen: Yeah. So, when school is getting closer, it's time to start adjusting, right? To not wait until a couple of days before, but really, like, weeks before. Start just crawling back to those regular times and maybe adding in a few other things that your kid has to do when school starts so that you get some practice in not just two days before.Andy: Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt.Gretchen: OK. So, we've been focusing a lot on the challenges of summer. Andy, quick response. What should we be celebrating about summer for our kids?Andy: Celebrating the achievement that we successfully made it through another school year. Yeah. And every time your kid gets a year older and you're in a summer vacation, they can do more cool stuff with you as they're sort of getting more to that, you know, closer to the adult level. Your kids are going to be more able to engage with you. And I think celebrating their independence, celebrating their skill building, and celebrating the things that were hard that they got through is always really important.Rachel: It's like a big exhale.Andy: Oh, yes.Gretchen: Well, thank you, Andy, so much for chatting with us today about summer.Rachel: And thank you for the great tips.Andy: Thanks for having me, guys. This is always fun. Just talking with friends here.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!“Math dyslexia” can’t stop this chef and business owner
Raquel Fleetwood says cooking is her zen, peace, and love. It’s a place where her trouble with math and anxiety fade away, and learning is natural. By the time Raquel Fleetwood was diagnosed with a learning disability at age 8, she had already discovered her passion: cooking. By 16, inspired by her Black-Latina roots, she was selling cheese flans in NYC. Each gig that followed built her confidence more and more. Now, Raquel is the owner and chef of a catering company that delivers 75,000 meals in an average year. Listen to hear how Raquel turned her love of food into a career. Learn her secret for managing challenges with math, spoken language, and organization as an adult. And get her advice on how to make your strengths shine when you have learning differences.Listen in. Then:Watch a video of a chef with learning differences who went back to college.Take a quiz to find your career superstar.Read how a skateboarder with dyslexia started his business.Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.I absolutely love food. So I'm really excited for our next guest. Raquel Fleetwood is a chef and caterer in Los Angeles who draws culinary inspiration from her Black and Puerto Rican roots. In a typical year, her company delivers 75,000 catered meals a year. She has dyslexia and other learning differences. She also struggles with things like spoken language, math, and organization. So Raquel, welcome to the show.Raquel: Thanks for having me.Eleni: Of course. So, yeah, I'm really excited to talk about food, and I'm really looking forward to hearing how you made that your career. So tell us a little bit about your job.Raquel: I'm the owner and chef of Catered By Raquel in Long Beach, California. And I am a full-time mom.Eleni: Four kids and a business.Raquel: Four kids and a business.Eleni: So, you're a chef and a caterer. Have you always loved cooking? And what do you love about it?Raquel: I've always loved cooking. My mom worked a lot when I was growing up; she was back in school to get her PhD. And I grew up on the Upper West Side of New York with a mother that didn't cook. So she would always order in; everything was takeout, which is, I guess, good for some people, but I remember figuring out at a super early age that if I learned how to cook, I could make anything I wanted. So I remember being 4 and trying to work my way into my grandmother's kitchen. And she eventually got tired of kicking me out, and they gave me a stool so I could reach the counter.Eleni: How very New York of your mother to order takeout every day.Raquel: Oh my gosh. She's like, I'm the best chef ever. Here's my phone numbers. These are all the numbers.Eleni: Yeah. And when you snuck into the kitchen, was there anything in particular that you liked about being in the kitchen or that you liked cooking — any favorite meals?Raquel: I just, I've always been attracted to it. My mom has stories of when I was a kid; she would put on "Sesame Street" and she would come in and Julia Child would be on the TV. So I always referred to Julia Child as my Big Bird. Cooking is where I met my zen, my peace, my love. It's a place where my nervousness, my anxiety, it doesn't play a role anywhere. And you know, I have trouble with numbers and math. And math and numbers, when it comes to food, it always makes sense. I'm grateful to have honed in on my talent super young.Eleni: Yeah, super young, 3 or 4.Raquel: Super young. Yep. My whole life.Eleni: Yeah. So, Raquel, you grew up in New York City, and, you know, you were diagnosed with dyslexia when you were 8. Do you want to talk a little bit about what it was like going to school in New York? Talk a little bit about struggles in school and, you know, anything that you want to share about that.Raquel: Yeah. I grew up on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, 93rd between Central Park West and Columbus. I lived in the same building for 27 years. So, I remember vividly starting the process of being tested. And, you know, my mom's a psychologist, so I think things might've been a little bit easier for me than some, because she was super, sometimes overly understanding of the whole thing. And in school I always had one friend. I was never the popular one. I'm an only child. And I have four kids, which is kind of ironic. I was never the one to play first, and I'm still not. So I think that growing up, it translated into who I am now, where I only have a couple of, like, really close friends. I can't really deal with too many personalities at once. And I kind of flew under the radar at school.You know, I graduated high school. I did what I had to do. Bare-bones, bare minimum. I was supposed to go to culinary school and I didn't, because my mom said she didn't want me to go to culinary school because if I went and graduated and I decided I didn't want to cook, then I wouldn't have something to have like a backup as. So I actually went to school for early childhood development and failed miserably.I took a math class like four times. And then just left. I missed out on an associate's degree for one class, because I just, I couldn't do it anymore. And I've always had issues, like, if I'm not interested in something, I really don't care. It's real easy for me to just look at a sparkly thing in the room and go somewhere else. So, I think I figured out actually later in life that there was a connection between having a learning disability and still being confident. I know sometimes that's where it affects people, in their confidence. But I think through food, through cooking, it kept me confident.Eleni: You were able to find something that you were really good at and then gain your confidence through that rather than focusing on the things that maybe were a little bit more challenging in school.Raquel: Exactly.Eleni: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, it's so rare to hear that people find their passion at the age of 3 or 4. I barely have memories from that age, you know? And you know, it sounded like you were pretty clear about what you wanted to study but then kind of pivoted into this other direction. How did you eventually find your way back to the food industry?Raquel: It took a while. I had gotten a gig at, like, 16 in New York selling my cheese flans to a restaurant that I worked for.Eleni: What is a cheese flan?Raquel: It's a traditional Puerto Rican flan dish — tastes more like a hybrid between a flan and a cheesecake. So I was pumping out cheese flans out my mom's oven. Thought I was something.And then I went to college. Didn't graduate. Wound up being in retail for, like, 10 years. I was a retail manager. I didn't like it, per se, but I was good at it because the methodical folding and making sure the stuff is perfect and square and even, and all the visual displays, that was the best part. The people were just not my thing.And even to this day with the cooking, sometimes I'm like, "You know, I wish I could just cook for nobody." Because it's always the people aspect of it all that throws me off a little. But then I wound up meeting my husband. We had our first child, and I was approached about catering our — this was 10 years ago now — catering our Christmas party for our subdivision we lived in. And I was like, "OK." She was like, "It's 160 people," and I'm, you know, "Fake it till you make it. Sure, why not?" And came in there and made it all look really pretty, and the food tasted really good. And I was able to do that for a couple of years, and I also was getting jobs. The word was kind of getting out. So I had jobs here and there.And then when I moved to California, my husband worked for a company that catered their lunch every day. So they were like, "Oh, well, does your wife cater? And does she want to cater for us once a week?" And I was like, "Sure, why not?" So it was like a mad dash to cook for 200 people.Eleni: Wow.Raquel: Pregnant at the time, with two other kids and no childcare. So it was a lot of fun.Eleni: Wow. That sounds intense.Raquel: And then from there, they gave me the full program. So I was their corporate chef for three years, before the pandemic.Eleni: Wow. So when the neighbor approached you, you had never actually done catering before. They just knew you were a good cook and they asked you to do it.Raquel: I did it when my mom's friends and stuff would have parties; I would do it for them. And again, the artistic part of me, it was always really good at making stuff look pretty. And that, definitely, it helped tailor my craft.Eleni: Yeah.Raquel: So I had experience here and there, but it was never for anyone I didn't know.Eleni: It was a little bit more of a hobby.Raquel: Yes.Eleni: And then it evolved into something a little bit more serious.Raquel: I had worked in kitchens younger, as a teenager, but it was never my thing. I definitely have a tough skin and stuff, but the demand working, you know, 15, 16 hours straight, to then double — I just, it's not me.Eleni: Yeah.Raquel: So the catering was a really great way for me to be able to cook and still have a life, essentially.Eleni: Yeah. And it's important to have balance, especially when you have four kids.Raquel: And they're little — we've got a 9, 7, 4, and 1. So, yeah, it's exciting. I just need them to get older so they can help with the company. I'm like, "Come wash these dishes."Eleni: I'm sure they will be super cute doing it. That's great. So I personally definitely prefer to cook than bake, and a big part of it is I just cannot follow a recipe. Like, I always want to change it a little bit and mix it up.Raquel: Yeah, not with baking.Eleni: Yeah. So for me, cooking is a little bit more of a creative outlet. Is it similar for you?Raquel: Yeah, I think baking is definitely more of a science. We can mess it up, but it's not my forte, baking. I still do it. And I still mess around with the recipes. And that's the biggest thing with cooking. I always tell people, "Don't be afraid to make mistakes, because it can either come out absolutely disgusting or you could make something that you really like, so why not try, you know?"Eleni: Yeah. Do you think that in terms of baking and following a recipe, do you think any struggles with reading have anything to do with that at all?Raquel: No. And again, the only numbers that make sense to me and my head are food measurements. So cups, quarters, converting grams. That just — it's so easy. But if you ask me to, like, do a simple math problem, I had to hire tutors to do homework when my second and third grader, and they learn math all kinds of different now. So I, you know, it still plays a big role. And my sense of direction is terrible. I can't go to the corner store without my GPS. My husband makes fun of me all the time. But yeah, cooking and numbers, like, I'm able to convert the recipes in my head really quick. It makes sense. I can see it in my brain, and in my brain it makes sense. Whereas with other numbers and, you know, applying math to things, when I see it in my brain, it just, there's no translation to it. It's just numbers. I can't apply it to anything.Eleni: That's so interesting. So what kind of food do you like to cook, and what influences some of the cuisine that you serve or your recipes?Raquel: Yeah. Right now we do just about anything. So we're known for doing custom menus. So, recently we had a Filipino repast, and they wanted me to do all traditional Filipino food. And I think the best thing about being a chef in 2022 is that if you know food, you can figure out how to cook the recipe. And, you know, once I'm able to look at recipes, I can make sense of it and be like, that's too much salt, or that needs more, or that's not enough garlic. So, I'm able to do basically whatever the client wants. And I am a foodie myself, growing up on the Upper West Side, being of mixed race, you know, having that Upper West Side melting pot really helped develop my palate.Eleni: And that's so cool that you can just kind of look at recipes and then bring your own —Raquel: Yeah, I can taste stuff, too, and I can tell you what's in it. So if I taste something, for the most part I can replicate the recipe.Eleni: I love it. So you just mentioned being mixed race, and we talked about it a little bit in the introduction. Do you want to share a little bit about how your ethnic background has had an influence on your cooking and your career? And then also maybe how it's played a part in other parts of your identity? And even how your learning differences have been perceived.Raquel: I love the question. I was raised by my Puerto Rican side. So, even though I am half Black, I do identify as Latina, and I'm fluent in Spanish. It's like my thing. We got married in Puerto Rico.Eleni: Oh, lovely.Raquel: And I feel like I was able to discover my Black side through food. So, yeah, when I moved to Atlanta, like, really being able to discover my roots. Their food was, like, amazing. I gained, like, 35 pounds —Eleni: Worth it!Raquel: Because I was eating mac and cheese, all the yumminess, fried chicken. But definitely felt more in touch with my dad's side through food, and have memories. Every now and then, I would go to one of his family members' house for Thanksgiving and like smelling the collard greens. So, like, even to this day, the smell of collard greens reminds me of his side. So really identifying who I am through food. There's a, such a push on my part, I feel like, to be able to expose people to what Puerto Rican food is, which is a mixture between the African slaves that they brought over, the Spanish, and then the Natives, they're called Taíno Indians. So it's more African-forward than what a Mexican dish would be.Eleni: That's amazing.Raquel: Yeah.Eleni: So, given that you love the cooking aspects but not so much the customer-client side, do you think that you'll stay in catering? Or are you thinking about other ways to incorporate cooking into your life or another business?Raquel: We're thinking about it. It's not as easy as it was pre-pandemic. I think that the food costs are astronomical. The same brisket that cost me, like, $36 before the pandemic now cost me $100. So, the increase in food prices and people just not understanding. And they're, like, "Well, this is too expensive." And I'm like, "I can't make any money to be able to pay a storefront."And you know, it's not that I don't like the client. It's more that the confrontation or the idea of confrontation and having to work my way through it, which I'm actually really good at, even though inside I'm, like, screaming, it's the anticipation and the anxiety of having to deal with people. Because they're spending a lot of money and it's warranted, but I don't want to deal with it. So I think me and my husband were talking more about possibly going more toward the TV food side.Eleni: That's interesting.Raquel: Yeah. So we'll see.Eleni: Well, earlier in the conversation, you said that while you struggled at school, you were able to have cooking as something that you were able to focus on and really enjoy. You mentioned struggle with math but it doesn't really come up in terms of recipes and things. Are there any struggles that come up that are related to your differences at work?Raquel: With cooking? Oh yeah. The organization part of it. You're supposed to be super neat. And my brain was just firing. It's firing, and I want to do like a million things at once, so then I look around and, like, the kitchen's on the floor. So, like, I've hired people specifically to clean up after me because you know, my brain’s just like, ah, like, “I can't, I can't do it.” I tried. I've done well sometimes, but it's not fun. That's a bit of a struggle, the organization part of it. You know, sometimes, you know, the ability for me to organize my thoughts definitely comes through on the cooking side.Eleni: Yeah. How do you think that relates to your differences, or do you think it relates to your differences?Raquel: Oh, I totally think it does. I think now, you know, at 40 years old, I know myself, so it doesn't bother me. It used to bother me. My saying was "I get on my own nerves." But now I know to step back. And I also think that it's really important, if you have a learning disability or not, owning a business, to surround yourself with people that balance you out, that can take up for your weakness. So, I tell people, "I don't need a five-star chef. I just need somebody that's organized, that can clean, that doesn't mind doing dishes, all that stuff." I've been able to kind of balance myself out with my staff. And I tell them the organization on my end is shot, and I'll have to sit there with a pen and paper because even the phone gets annoying. And I write everything down so that I can see my list of things, because if I leave it up to my brain, it's going to jumble it all up and mess it up. But again, you know, I also think that being learning disabled, when you immerse yourself in a day-to-day activity that causes you to have those issues and figure it out, the more it happens, the less it bothers you, the less anxiety there is behind it. Because you know that you fixed it before, and you fix it every time, so this time shouldn't be any different.Eleni: And, you know, you've mentioned being a mother and having four kids. Are there any challenges that come up related to learning differences when you're parenting?Raquel: Sometimes my patience. That's why I had to hire a tutor for my second and third grader, because I couldn't do it. And then my oldest daughter, who's 9, just got diagnosed with dyslexia.Eleni: Oh, wow.Raquel: So we have her in a special program to get her caught up. And I do think that me having it and letting her know — I'm being very vocal about it. I can't stress enough, especially being in the Black and Latino community, how that was seen as, like, a handicap. And it's not.The main thing as a parent with a child that has a learning disability is to make sure that you figure out what they were put here for. Hone in on it and run with it because it's about building that confidence as a kid.My daughter, she's super into science and drawing and art. She wants to be an animal scientist. So stuff like that, just really trying to make sure they're doing something on a daily basis that makes them feel good about themselves. And I feel like it counteracts the other stuff.Eleni: And you mentioned in the Black and Latinx community, there are some perceptions of differences being handicaps, I think is the word that you used. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what your view is on that? How stigma comes up, and how you have handled that within your own community or family?Raquel: I think it's just kind of embedded in who we are, because we're coming from generations where there was no exposure to this. People didn't know; you were just special. You know what I mean? So now that they're able to actually break it down and specifically tell you, it's kind of lightening the load. But I think that again, within the Black and Latino community, because there's so much more exposure to this stuff, I do feel like it's getting better. But it takes people to talk about it to see that you can still be super successful and be OK.Eleni: That's great. Do you have any advice for people that are thinking about starting a business that perhaps was previously a hobby or a passion, especially if they have some sort of learning difference?Raquel: You know, I think that if you have someone — I got lucky enough, my husband is in marketing. So I guess I did it with my marriage too. So I kind of filled in where I lacked. And just really making sure that you have someone that backs you that maybe knows more about business than you do, if you don't know anything about it, and to do it. Because if you don't try, you already failed. You know what I mean? Like, the worst that happens is you fall on your behind and you're still better off. You're more experienced than had you not tried at all. I have my days here with four kids and I want to pull my hair out, and I get in my car and I go to my kitchen and I blast my music and I mind my business, and it's the best feeling ever. I really appreciate it, because I know that a lot of chefs don't get to experience that. And I always used to say growing up, that, when I died, I would go to Heaven and be in the kitchen by myself with music playing.Eleni: And you can do it while you're alive.Raquel: And I didn't have to die to do it!Eleni: Thanks so much for being on the show, Raquel. It was so great having you.Raquel: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" was created by Andrew Lee and is produced by Gretchen Vierstra and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Back-to-school worksheet to start the year strong
Summer is a good time to hit the pause button and think about the past school year. What went well? What was challenging? And what did you learn that can help in the new year? Parents and caregivers: Help your child get ready to go back to school by filling out this worksheet together.Educators: Share this worksheet with your students’ families at the start of school or at the end of the school year.
The Opportunity GapGrowing up with ADHD: An interview with René Brooks
ADHD advocate René Brooks was diagnosed with ADHD twice as a child. But it wasn’t until she was diagnosed again as an adult that she finally got support. Listen to her story. René Brooks was diagnosed with ADHD twice during her childhood. But stigma and shame kept her family from learning more and getting her the right support. So when she was diagnosed with ADHD for a third time at age 25, she decided to take control of her own journey. In this episode, René unpacks her experiences growing up with ADHD. Listen as she explains: The impact of delayed interventionWhat she wishes the adults in her life did differently And why it’s important to build support systems for kids with ADHDRelated resourcesRené Brooks’ podcast: Life With Lost KeysChildren and Adults with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity DisorderMasking ADHD symptoms to go above and beyond (René Brooks’ story)Episode transcriptJulian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. And there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. Hey OG family, welcome back to another episode of "The Opportunity Gap." Today's show is about growing up with ADHD. ADHD is a common condition that's caused by differences in the brain. Some people with ADHD mainly have trouble with focus, but this learning difference can impact other skills, including managing emotions. ADHD isn't a matter of laziness. It's not a matter of willpower. It's much more than that. And today's guest is here to debunk that myth and share her journey. So I'm super hyped to welcome René Brooks to the show. Welcome, René. Welcome welcome, welcome. René: Hey, Julian. Thank you. Julian: Oh, I'm so glad you're here. She is amazing, listeners. She's not only an advocate, she's a content creator. And she's the host of Life With Lost Keys podcast. She's a black woman with ADHD, and she's committed to silencing the shame and empowering kids and adults with ADHD. I really believe, I truly do believe that her experiences can help parents and educators better support kids with ADHD. René, welcome to the pod. René: Thank you so much for having me. It's a wonderful thing to be here with you today, Julian. Julian: Of course. So let's get into it. We're talking all about growing up with ADHD, and we know that growing up with ADHD is vastly different for every single person. So René, can you tell us a little bit about what it was like to grow up with ADHD? René: Absolutely. For me, it was always hearing that I wasn't performing up to my potential. Dealing with teachers who were frustrated by that and thought I was challenging them maybe, by not doing the homework or keeping up with the lessons, but always having me answer in class because I knew the material. It was having to put up with my mother's exasperation too. It was always having to be pulled into a meeting. My mother was a big fan of the meet-and-greet with the teachers, and if things weren't going smoothly in the classroom, I might get pulled out of one class to be in a meeting with three other teachers to find out, "Hey, what the heck is going on with this girl? And why isn't she performing up to snuff?" So, there was a lot of frustration and embarrassment on every side of the problem. Julian: Do you feel like you were bored? René: Yes, in some subjects I was bored and that was the thing that people always wanted to know. "Is she just bored?" And the answer is not quite as simple as just boredom. I think I was bored, but I was also understimulated. But I was also, you know, some classes you just don't like. And when you have a challenge like attention deficit disorder, you're going to not pay attention in those classes because they can't pique your interest. Julian: Got it. Thinking about just the way that you describe your teachers and sometimes mom, and how she would feel a certain type of way about your progress in school. Can you go back to childhood René, and describe how did childhood-René feel about all this? What did it feel like to be labeled "challenging," or to have all these questions about your progress in school? René: It was embarrassing for me. I really, really disliked it because I just wanted to... I just wanted to do the things so that they would stay out of my hair. Does that make any sense? Julian: That makes total sense.René: Nobody wants to be seen as " the problem child," you know? Julian: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important for our listeners to just hear the feelings attached with the labels that sometimes we place on our students and/or our children. And here René is explaining that, just wanting to be seen, and how sometimes that might equate to how she felt about herself, like the idea of self-esteem really plays into that. I'm wondering if you could go back to that time. Would there be something you'd want the adults to do differently? René: Yeah. I would want them to approach me as if, not as if I were an equal, but as if I was not just a problem to be solved. As if I was a human who a conversation could be had with and not just "What do we do to make her perform?" And the funny thing about it was, they knew that I had the ability, because I was also in gifted and talented classes at the same time, so they really...Julian: Oh, so you were twice exceptional? OKRené: I was twice exceptional. So, the idea back then in the 90s was always like, "Oh, they're twice exceptional. Give them more work or challenge them. They're not being challenged enough. They're bored. Stack some other strange stuff on top of there so that they can perform." Julian: And that's interesting because there's a much larger contingent of students now who have the dual diagnosis. Right, like having ADHD and also having gifted as a part of their IEPs. And so, you're seeing like this kind of mixed bag of a situation. And it's interesting that the adults might have attempted to challenge you. But in that same time period, you might not have felt like you had the support you needed. René: I did feel like I didn't have the support I need. I'm glad you brought that up because, when they designate a child as gifted — or at least I've been out of the school system for quite some time right now, but in my experience — it was like, "You're gifted, why don't you just do these things?" And it wasn't that simple. Julian: Right. It's never that simple. It's never that simple. René, I want our listeners also to hear about how, in your lifetime, you were diagnosed with ADHD three different times: when you were seven, when you were 11, and when you were 25. Can you talk about that? How did that come about? René:What happened? Yes. Julian:Yeah. For real? What? What happened? René:The stigma was the real issue for me. My mom was not having it at seven. She knew people who were being put on meds and according to her, these children were like zombies and it just wasn't something that she was willing to entertain for me. For some reason, she equated having ADHD with having to be medicated, and she was not trying to hear or learn anything about ADHD at that point. So, when the second time came around and of course, in middle school, they caught it because there's such a difference between the way you handle a middle school child versus how you handle an elementary school child. There I am trying to deal with a locker and making it to classes on time and getting the homework done and dealing with those different sorts of responsibilities. And they evaluated me for it again and were like, "Hey, she has it. And she, again was like, "Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with my child. She's in gifted and talented classes." She took me to my then pediatrician and the pediatrician said, "She's bored, give her more responsibility," which we know now is absolutely the wrong thing to do. And so, there I was, surrounded by support, but it wasn't the right kind of support. There were people in my corner who genuinely wanted me to succeed, but they weren't going about it the right way. Julian:And so, how did you come to being 25 and where did that come into play? René: So at 25, I was working at a job that I loved. And then one day the novelty wore off and I just couldn't do it anymore. And I got really depressed and took some mental health leave from work. And I was laying on the couch at my therapist's office one day, and I just so happened to mention, "Yeah, they thought I had ADHD back in the 90s, but my doctor just said to give me more work." And my therapist stopped me in the middle of a session and sent me down the hallway to book with the ADHD specialists who worked in her practice. And the rest is all she wrote. That's how we ended up here. Because she saw what kind of help I needed and sent me to a person who could help me. Julian: Wow. René:It was an accident. Julian:Well, nothing's ever by accident. I'm a firm believer that things happen in the time and space that they're supposed to happen. You know, one, I want to applaud you for being really clear about your story. I know that it's not easy to share how this journey, it took a long time to get to a place where you finally felt like you got the diagnosis that you needed. I'm interested to know, you know, just thinking about all those different time periods — whether it was at seven, 11 and 25 and even now — what do you think the type of help was that you needed? Like, what kind of help do you think would have been helpful for you? René: Someone who knew about ADHD sitting there with me, teaching me about the way that my brain worked. Because instead of internalizing messages about how my brain works differently and I needed different tools, I internalized things like "I was lazy," "I was careless," "I was not willing to apply myself to do the work." Because when they said those things, of course I was trying my hardest to get those things done right and didn't know why I couldn't. Julian:And so, now that you got that diagnosis, you went down the hallway. You got the diagnosis. What does help look like now? René:Oh, help now looks like being able to call somebody and just say, "Hey, I'm having a hard time getting through this. Can you sit with me on the phone while I work through this thing that I'm struggling with?" or saying, "Hey, mom" — who is one of my biggest supporters and always has been — I don't want to make it seem like she wasn't before. She just was misguided in the way that she gave the support. But I can call her now and say, "Hey, you know, I've got this thing coming up. I need a reminder call ma. Can you go ahead and call me back in an hour and just make sure I'm off doing the thing?" Or I know that I need to set those things up for myself. So, for our appointment today, I have a reminder that goes off at an hour before, 30 minutes before, 15 minutes before, or five minutes before I'm at the time up. That sounds excessive, but I can get caught up in whatever else it is that I might be doing until it's time to meet up with you and never make the meeting, because time blindness will take me away. So, it's knowing what works for me now. Julian: So this new René that got the treatment, this new René that got the support. Did it feel liberating to finally have some answers? René:It felt liberating, and it also felt incredibly frustrating because I didn't have to go through some of the things that I went through. Some of those meetings with teachers were embarrassing. Like, I used to crochet in class because it helped me concentrate, and my mom caught wind of it and was so mad at me. Some of the teachers were so... Julian:Mad for crochet? René: They were. That was a scandal. That was quite a meeting that we had, and it was an innocent thing and it helped me concentrate. Julian:So, I have an eight-year-old daughter and she just learns how to crochet, and I've probably spent about $200 at Michael's in the last couple of weeks because we keep getting yarn, and she uses crocheting as a way to help her focus too. René, I got to be honest with you, I am sitting here. I'm just really digging everything I'm learning about you. I think you're an incredible person, and what I admire the most is how you've chosen to take your experiences as a black woman with ADHD, and you could have just kept it to yourself, but you decided, "No, let me let me create a community. Let me get people together." And I think especially for our folks, that's something that we do. We bring people together. And there's so many of our black women out there looking for answers, like trying to figure out what can they do. And you found some. And so you decided, let me share my knowledge with others. So, can you tell our listeners all about Black Girl, Lost Keys and the motivation behind it? Which, by the way, the road trip episode, folks. Amazing. Dope dope dope dope dope. My favorite one, but I digress. Let's go into Black Girl, Lost Keys. Tell us about it. René: So, I started Black Girl, Lost Keys in 2014 because I was looking, when I got diagnosed, for a resource with black and brown people at the head of it, and there was nothing. And that was in 2009. So around 2014, I was looking for it again and there was nothing. And I've always been a good writer. Like I said, the English department dragged me through high school. And so, I thought, if there's nothing here, then what I lack in knowledge, I can learn more. But there needs to be something here. There needs to be somebody sharing their experience. Because this is bananas. Julian:It is bananas. René: So, I decided to start it because there was no one out there talking about the black and brown experience. And it just seemed a shame. And I'm — you know, I don't consider myself to be the only black experience that I could talk about — but I'm pretty average black woman living in America. And if there was nothing and I've got the talent to write, it only made sense that I take it and use it to help the other people around me so at least there was something so they didn't feel like they were all by themselves. And so after I started that, little by little, I built it into an audience that, oh gosh, there's a ton of followers now. There was nobody at first. I used to write about everything that came to mind, and now I mainly focus on teaching other people different things about ADHD and the common challenges. So, it's a little bit less about my life and more about their lives and what they might need. Julian: Got it. What do you think is your proudest portion of Black Girl, Lost Keys? Like, out of all the experiences you had through the writing, through the podcast, through the digital resources, and all that. What are you most proud of? René: I'm just proud that I was able to do it at all. But if I had to pick a moment that I was most proud — not last year, but the year before — I got to fly to Dallas, Texas and give a keynote speech for the International ADHD Conference, and I got a chance to bring my mom there. They wanted me to do an hour speech. I did it in 20 minutes and there was not a dry eye in the house by the time I got finished speaking, and it was just... to be able to do that with my mom there. Julian: With mom there. That's that's full circle right there, right? René:What's even more full circle, and another thing that I'm proud of is that my mother was diagnosed with ADHD. She has it. Julian: Wow.René: Can you believe it? Julian: Wow, that is wild. I mean, and again, you know, things work in the way that they're supposed to work. And I just think it's amazing that you've been able to use your platform and share so much information. And people don't realize when it's coming from somebody that's living it and experiencing it, It just hits different. As a black woman, especially, there's a certain language in a way that black women can only communicate with other black women. So, the fact that you've chosen this platform to communicate, I just applaud that, I applaud that. René:Thank you. Julian: And I'm so glad that you've chosen to do it. For our listeners, I'm wondering, are there any resources that you've found that are super helpful? Just, you know, some quick things that you'd like to share that anybody could reference? René: Yeah, for sure. If you're living with a child or you yourself have ADHD, there's CHADD (that's Children and Adults with ADHD), and if you are an adult with ADHD there's ADDA (that's adults with ADD). Both of those are nonprofit resources that exist and are solely there to help people with ADHD. They both have groups. They both have webinars, all kinds of things to put information right at your fingertips and help. Julian: So, we heard that's CHADD and ADDA, CHADD and ADDA. We'll make sure to link those in the show notes. Thinking about the shared experience of being a black woman with ADHD, something that you also did is you created a support system that really impacted you, because you weren't doing this by yourself. And you've been able to create this system. And I know that so many of our listeners out there — especially, you know, our black moms are parents of black children with ADHD out there or our teachers of black children that are out there — they're wondering, what's the first step in building these support systems that you were able to create? What do you think is one of the first steps that people should take? René: Honesty. Julian: Honesty. Say more about that. Say more about that. René: Because a lot of people come into this and they don't want to admit that they have the ADHD, or they don't want to admit that they need as much support as they actually need, or they don't want to be honest about the type of support that they need. You can't get help until you are clear about articulating the kind of help you need. Does that make sense? Julian: 100%. The first step is always admit that there's something going on. I don't want to label ADHD a problem. It's a difference. It's admitting that there is a difference happening and that extra or different support might be needed. That's the important part. René: And that difference is causing problems for us. So, it's OK to say that ADHD isn't the problem, but the challenges that it can throw in our way is definitely problematic from time to time. Julian: Exactly. On this podcast, we talk about the stigma of ADHD and other learning and thinking differences in the black community and how, especially with the older generation — your mother and my mother, probably similar age-groups — there's a very specific experience that the older generation had with special education. And how we have to reclaim what we rightfully deserve, which is a high quality education that includes all of the accommodations and modifications that come with having a learning and thinking difference. I think this work that you're doing is unpacking some of the stigma that goes along with it, and empowering black women specifically, and embracing all of the learning and thinking differences that are out there. René: Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to do. Just make a space where everybody could feel comfortable and come talk. Julian: Now, any resources specifically that you mentioned CHADD and ADDA, but anything specifically that — and again, I say my podcast in general, we specifically focus on the intersection of race and special education — for you, any specific resources that are most effective in helping black and brown kids with ADHD to navigate and thrive? René: Let's see. There's people doing that work now. There's a lady named Torrian Timms. She runs a place called Sistas With ADHD, that supports. My friend Inger. She runs the page Black Women With ADHD, that supports as well. And there's a friend of mine — I'll see if I can get you that info, because she's a coach that works with children specifically — and I want to make sure I've got her information right. Julian: Well, please shout them all out because we'll link as many resources as possible. I think it's really important that any time we have a platform, we call out all the positivity that's happening across the country. And that we're not working in silos. We're all working together with the same desire to build positive outcomes for our children. And so, everybody that you know is doing good work. Let's make sure we shine them out and make sure that we inform our listeners who they are. René: Oh, it will be a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Julian: René, I could talk to you all day long. I wish I could, but they give me a time limit on this. So, I just wanted to say a big thank you. I just appreciate you. I appreciate the work you're doing. I appreciate the journey that you've gone on. I appreciate your candid honesty. It's not easy getting on a stranger's podcast and sharing your life story, but you chose to do that, and I cannot be more grateful. So before I go, I just wanted to again extend my extreme gratitude for you to join us. Thank you. René: Thank you. It's been a real pleasure, Julian, and I'm so glad that we were able to push through and get this thing recorded. Julian: Listeners, OG family. Before we go, I want to make sure that we share a few resources with everybody. First, please check out — and I'm being serious, I'm a big fan of this podcast myself — René Brooks' podcast. It's called Life With Lost Keys, and it is hilarious. It is a great listen. I could listen to it all day. She's a much better podcast host than I am. So, check it out please. Also, follow her on social media @Blackgirllostkeys. You can follow her on social media @Blackgirllostkeys. She also referenced CHADD and ADDA, and Understood will have a host of resources on our episode page that relate to ADHD. René Brooks, thank you so much. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks, edited by Daniella Tello-Garzon. llana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show for the Understood Podcast Network. Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Printable: Back-to-school update to learn from families
At the start of the school year, it’s important to gather information about your students. Asking a few questions can help you build positive relationships with your students and their families. What were the challenges? What were the successes? What changed in kids’ lives? And how are they feeling right now? Share this one-page questionnaire with your students’ families. Families can download it on a computer or phone, and then type answers into the form. Or they can print it out and fill it in by hand. The form is also available in Spanish.Responding to families’ concernsAfter families return their questionnaires, follow up as needed and plan for how you can partner with families throughout the year. Some families may mention new behaviors that concern them. You can direct them to Take N.O.T.E., a step-by-step tool Understood developed with the American Academy of Pediatrics to help families spot signs of learning and thinking differences. The tool includes resources on frustration, stress, and anxiety, and it empowers families to seek support. Ready to dive deeper? Find out more about the benefits of strong family-teacher partnerships.
Understood Explains Season 1What is a special education evaluation?
Is your child struggling in school? Are you wondering what supports might help? Get an overview of how schools evaluate kids for special education. Is your child struggling in school? Are you wondering what supports might help? This episode of Understood Explains gives an overview of how schools evaluate kids for special education.Host Dr. Andy Kahn is a psychologist who has spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for public and private schools. Andy’s first guest in this episode is educator Julian Saavedra. They’ll cover a few key areas:Why schools evaluate kidsWhat evaluations look likeHow special education has changed over the yearsAndy’s second guest is parenting expert Amanda Morin. They’ll end each episode this season with tips on what to say to your child about getting evaluated.Related resourcesWhat is an evaluation for special education?6 benefits of having your child evaluatedDifferent terms you may hear for evaluationsParent training centers: A free resource in your stateEpisode transcriptLisa: Hi, my name is Lisa and I'm from Marin County, which is in California just north of San Francisco. By the time our son was in first grade, it was really apparent to us that something was off. He clearly was unable to do the basic homework that other first-grade students were trying to do. We were not able to get him to write, as an example, the word "cat." That would be a four-hour process. Unfortunately, at that time, we didn't realize we had the right to request an evaluation. We didn't understand. We didn't even know what we were supposed to be googling.Andy: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "Understood Explains." You're listening to Season 1, where we explain evaluations for special education. Over 10 episodes, we cover the ins and now of the process that school districts use to evaluate children for special education services. My name is Andy Kahn, and I'm a licensed psychologist, and an in-house expert at Understood.org. I've spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for both public and private schools. I'll be your host.Today's episode will give you an overview of what an evaluation is. We're going to cover a few key things: the purpose of school-based evaluations, who's on the evaluation team, how long the process takes, and the benefits of evaluating kids who are struggling in school. But first, let's go back to Lisa. Her story shows the many emotions and experiences that come along with the evaluation process.Lisa: We did feel completely alone. We didn't have anybody else to run this by or who had been through this experience other than, you know, little tidbits here and there. And so we were really piecing it all together ourselves. And it was, you know, a frustrating journey. And it really wasn't until we had that tutor that said, "This is crazy. This child should have been sent to us and evaluated years ago." And she was really the one who told us that those were our rights. And in a way, I feel guilt to this day that I didn't research it properly enough to understand that earlier. But again, you don't know what you're looking for if you don't know.Andy: My first guest today is going to help give everyone an overview of what an evaluation is and how it can help kids who are struggling in school. Julian Saavedra is an assistant principal at a Philadelphia high school. He's also father of two and co-hosts the Understood podcast "The Opportunity Gap," about kids of color with ADHD, dyslexia, and other learning differences.Julian: Hey, thank you so much for having me.Andy: Thanks for being here, Julian. Before we get into it, I want to start off by addressing a common myth that might make a lot of parents hesitate to evaluate their child for special education services. When I was a kid, special education meant like spending the whole day in a separate classroom. But special education changed like tremendously since then. Today, most kids who receive special education are in the general education classrooms for most of the day, and might only get pulled out for an hour or two of specialized instruction. I mean, Julian, when you think about it, it's really incredible how much special education has changed.Julian: Yeah, and I think, Andy, touching upon the generational shift that's happened with special education is something that we don't talk about a lot. If you're not in schools on a daily basis, you might not know how much education has transformed in the last 20 years, right? And, you know, I've been an educator for — this is my 19th year. And what special education is now, compared to when I first started as a classroom teacher, is dramatically different. So there's a lot of just historical memories that we have, as people of our age range, that are very different than what's happening in education across the country.Andy: So as an administrator and teacher, you've been a part of the evaluation process in a variety of roles. What are some of the basic things you tell parents about what happens in an evaluation?Julian: A lot of times our families have a misconception about what evaluation actually means. They might think that this is a test that's going to happen over the course of one or two days. Sometimes a family might ask me, "Well, Mr. Saavedra, do they have to study for this?" And I'll tell them like, "No, this is not something that you're traditionally used to testing."Andy: Yeah, very common question.Julian: So evaluations encompass a variety of factors that are looked at. They include academics. Maybe a student might be observed over the course of multiple classrooms. Or this might include behavioral, so there might be an assessment that one of the student's teachers might take. A family member or parent might fill out a questionnaire, and somebody else that's a trusted adult that's able to observe the child in different settings might fill out. There might be conversations that happen between an evaluator and the student to evaluate the social-emotional aspect of a student's personality. So there's a variety of things that are looked at. It's not just a specific aspect of the child, it's trying to get an idea of who the child is on a holistic level.Andy: Can you tell me a bit about how you explain this process to your families? And maybe some tips and tricks you have that might help describe the process to them.Julian: The way I like to break it down for families is, you know, I like food. I'm definitely a big like food guy. And I like to make a lot of references to food. So I use the analogy of a menu: that this is a menu of options that we're trying to figure out as a school for your child. You know, everybody doesn't want the same dish. And we all know that there's different ways to cook the same food. But ultimately, we can make it delicious. We just have to figure out what ingredients and what strategies are we going to use to make this incredibly beautiful dish. So when I talk to families, and I break it down that way, it helps them alleviate some of the stress of figuring out well, they're not really saying something's wrong with my kid, they're saying that maybe we need to figure out what are the things that are going to work well.Andy: Yeah, I love, love, love the analogy, because I think what we're talking about is, is well, let me stick to your theme here: making it more appetizing to families, right?Julian: I try to really focus on the positives, you know? Everybody likes to hear great things about their child. And a lot of times the evaluation process brings out some of those positive strengths that a child might not get shine for normally. So when families get a chance to see all these positive things coming out from the evaluation process, it makes them feel good about it. But if you go into the process with the mindset that there's something wrong, and we're doing this because they're not doing well, or they're messing up, that shuts them down immediately.Andy: This is about finding out the student's strengths and weaknesses. When we talk about weaknesses, it's really important to share with families that our focus is on figuring out how the school can do things differently to help them. It's not about something that's wrong with the child, but rather what the program needs to do to change to help the child. It's to help and not to blame the child. That's, that's a key. It's also about describing to them how this process can make sense and help focus on that this is to help them, not to identify or to stigmatize them.Julian: I mean, it can be incredibly intimidating. And so I think having the idea of trust, and an understanding that there's a two-way process happening, is really important, right? There's a lot of intelligence that our parents are bringing to the table. They just might not have the same vocabulary that we do. So making sure that we're making the jump and breaking things down so that everybody's on the same page, because our children are the most important thing that we have in our lives. Right? So making sure that that process is crystal clear, and it's streamlined for everybody to feel comfortable, is of prime importance.Andy: Julian, let's talk about why we do these evaluations. You know, when we do evaluations, we're looking for specific things. What are we supposed to be on the lookout for? What is this process about?Julian: One thing that families need to know is that by federal law, schools are mandated to look for students that may be struggling in school. So it's not a choice, it is by law, that all schools have the ability and the mandate to look for students who may be having struggles. And all families have a choice to have their students evaluated, if they believe that there may be struggles that are happening.Andy: So we're talking about the idea of Child Find here — the idea that schools are supposed to be on the lookout for kids who might have disabilities that needs support. Do you find that some of your families misunderstand the idea that these evaluations are free, or aren't aware of that process?Julian: I think that's been pretty well communicated. People know that it is for free. But we always want to just make sure that it's crystal clear that it is not to any cost of the families. And the bigger issue is more the timeline of how long this is going to happen. Just communicating what the rights are within those laws, so that families are clear as to what should be happening and what the timeline is for it to be happening.Andy: Right. And I think in the process, Julian, it's very important for folks to know that most commonly, schools are doing some interventions and doing some supports of children before they go into the evaluation process.Julian: Right, right. Yeah, many, many schools have a process called MTSS, or multi-tiered support systems, where tier one, or tier two, or tier three interventions occur. And those, again, are things that are preliminary that happen before the evaluation process actually starts. And just again, the schools are attempting to try as many different things as possible to really support the students and intervene if students are struggling. But then the parents need to understand that at any point during their school experience, they have the right to request an evaluation. And so that's something that we make really clear to all families: that they have the right, and they can request an evaluation to happen at any point when they choose.Andy: So one of the key things I'd like to chat with you about here today is talking about terminology, I always find that being able to speak the same language as the school staff and administrators can be a huge stress reliever for families.Julian: So having the same vocabulary is credibly important. In Pennsylvania, we use the term "evaluation." I know that in other states, they use different terminology. Some states may use "assessment," some states may use "testing," some states may use "evaluation and/or assessment." But in Pennsylvania, we use the word "evaluation." And then I would also recommend any families that are considering this process to make sure that they research what are the terms that are used in your state. Because the laws vary from state to state. And so making sure that you get yourself acclimated with the vocabulary is incredibly important.Andy: So here in Maine, we use the term "evaluation" and "assessment" almost interchangeably. In our show notes, we have a link to state-specific information that might be helpful for some of our listeners.So Julian, let's talk a little bit about who are the people at the table, so to speak? Who are the players in this evaluation process that our families may be introduced to?Julian: In many cases, the primary contact person is going to be the special education team. So that may include a special education teacher. That may include a special education coordinator. There's also going to be a school administrator that's designated to oversee the process. There will be potentially a speech pathologist. There might be a school psychologist. There might be an occupational therapist to evaluate the physical needs of the child. There could be a guidance counselor or a counselor that's involved to kind of evaluate the social-emotional aspect of the student. Of course, general education teachers, that will be a part of this process, too. And in some cases, a parent might even bring a parent advocate or child advocate to the table.Andy: Yeah, so you're describing this, this whole group of people who are likely to be on the evaluation team. And they all need to do certain things within a certain amount of time. So for example, the evaluation process can take as long as 60 days. And that's the time frame for federal special education law. But some states may have shorter time frames. So Julian, there's a deadline that the team needs to meet. And during this time, the child might get pulled out of class to talk to one of the specialists. Teachers might get asked to share what they're seeing in the class. And parents and caregivers might get asked to share what they're seeing at home. And, you know, I gotta say, as someone who's evaluated many, many kids over the years, the parent questionnaires are just a hugely important part of the puzzle. Because what you see in your child, when you're at home, might be completely different than what's going on in school.Julian: So parents, we really encourage you to be completely open and honest about what you're seeing at home. Because the more global picture that we can get of the student, the better it is for everybody. And really, the whole purpose of this is to understand where are the gaps? And where are the strengths? What can we do to replicate some of the things that are going well? For example, if you see that your child is doing an excellent job of organizational task at home, right, they have a whole list of chores they have to do at home, and they do it really well. That's executive functioning. Whereas maybe they're struggling in their second-grade class to put their books away or have their desk organized or to get started. That's something that needs to be known, because that can help the team understand, well, maybe there's something happening with a disconnect and how the instructions are given. Maybe there's something that you as a family are doing really well that's working with how you break down chores that our teachers need to know at school, and they can replicate that at school. But if there's not that conversation or that strength analysis filled out by the family, then it makes it really hard to figure that out. So, again, it's really about a combination of a whole swath of people that are trying to get this holistic picture of who the child is, and what they do, across all places in their life, not just what they do in school or not just what's happening at home. And, you know, I think when families hear that, they start to feel a little bit more comfortable. It's not just trying to find the things that are not going well. It's trying to find everything. Then I think that really helps the comfort level increase.Andy: Wow, that's, that's a lot. And it's really important for families to know that an assessment isn't just about weaknesses and problems. But we want to know about what's going well. Because if a parent has something that's really working for their child, gosh, I know so many teachers who would love to borrow and steal those skills, and use them in their settings. And I think that's where it becomes a collaboration. So for so much of this, getting information is about parents giving their best honest view of their kids, and also helping us identify their strengths and weaknesses, not about labeling, not about diagnosing, but about really getting a big picture view as best as we can get. So what are some of the biggest benefits of evaluating kids? And how have you seen this process help kids that you've worked with thrive over time?Julian: You know, there's so many benefits to the process, because in many cases, it gives the child, it gives the family, and it gives the school a holistic picture of who that child is. And ultimately, education should be as personalized as possible. And when we have a better idea of what works and what might not be working, and what areas might need to be helped, then it gives the school a much better shot of actually providing the services that are required. I've had families that come in, and they just don't feel comfortable with the whole process. They don't know what's going to happen. But they realize that this IEP is something that's going to be beneficial for them. And, you know, when they walk out and you tell the child, you know, these are the things that you're going to get. And these are the different services that you're going to have at your disposal. And here's another teacher that's going to help you really get what you need to get — the smiles that you see when a kid finally feels like somebody is hearing them? That makes all the difference. You know, I forgot to say earlier, when I talked about the whole team that is involved, I forgot the most important person: the student themselves. Like, and it doesn't matter what age this kid is. Whether it's a kindergartner, or whether it's a 12th grader, they are at the center of all this. And if we can make sure families and children know that, then everybody wins.Lisa: My son had his first public school evaluation in the sixth grade. We set up a meeting. It was the tutor, a few of his teachers, and the school psychologist. And we went in with a much more aggressive approach than we had the first time. My husband, the first thing out of his mouth was, you know, "Thank you everybody for coming. And we don't mean to be aggressive. But we were told by the school in first grade that we needed to sit back and see what happens. And we took your advice. And our son is now in a really bad situation. And we're not going to wait any longer. So we need to get him tested."Andy: What Lisa was just describing is an all-too-common problem of waiting to evaluate, taking a wait-and-see approach that can leave kids in a tough situation. Sometimes it's the parents who want to wait to evaluate their child, because they're really nervous about how getting an evaluation for special education might affect their child's self-esteem. My next guest is going to offer advice on how to talk to kids about these things in a positive way. Amanda Morin is the co-host of the Understood's "In It" podcast, and the mom of three kids, two of whom learn differently. She's also a former classroom teacher and an early intervention specialist. Hey, Amanda.Amanda: Hey, Andy. It's really good to join you.Andy: So what's your first piece of advice that you give to parents?Amanda: I think the first piece of advice that I would give is to be really cautious about the word "evaluation" when you're talking to kids, because it can be a very tricky word. So I think one of the things I start with with parents is to say to them, "Don't use the word 'evaluation' right off the bat." You know, talk to your child about the fact that you're going to be doing a closer look at their strengths and weaknesses, looking a little more at what can be supportive for them, because you know that they're struggling a little bit.Andy: And how do you help explain to parents what "a closer look" actually means?Amanda: It's important for both parents and kids to understand that this is not just one day, right? It's not a one-day process. Your child is probably going to talk to a number of different people, see new people in their classroom, have conversations, do activities with a bunch of different people over time. So I think it's important for them to understand that that "closer look" is really going to be more of a process. Because it's important to see what you're really good at, and also what you're having some difficulty with. And I think it's important for kids to know that this is an overtime kind of thing. So that "closer look" is really not just about "Today we're going to look at what you can do." We want to see the whole story, we don't want to just see one picture of one moment in time. And I think it's important for parents to know that too. We don't want you to think this is one day that you have to be really prepared for. It's many days that you don't have to be really prepared for it. You just have to be there for it.Andy: Oh, absolutely. Any other information you might share, or advice about just talking about what evaluations are with your kids?Amanda: I think with kids, it's important to sort of clue into how much information they want. And we can see that and how they're reacting to us. And if you're a parent, you absolutely have been in a situation where you've talked longer than your child is willing to listen. Pay attention to those things, right? It doesn't have to be a one-and-done conversation. You can sit down, you can start the conversation, and then just keep the lines of communication open, which for parents basically means bring up again if you need to. Listen when they're asking questions. And give as much information as you can without overwhelming your child right now.Andy: Yeah, that's so crucial. I always think about when I was working with families on parenting, we often talked about the two- to three-minute rule, which is if you're talking for longer than two to three minutes, you can be pretty darn well sure your kid's gone. So on the other side of this equation, what's some of the things that you shouldn't say — the not to say advice we give parents?Amanda: The "not to says" are the things that might make a child feels like it's their fault. You don't want your kids to think that they've done something wrong. I would not want you to say to your child, "You know, you're having a lot of trouble in school. And it's really clear. Your teachers are talking about it. I'm noticing it, and we need to do something about this." Right? That's a lot of responsibility on a kid. The other piece of it is probably just paying attention to the looks on their face. So if you say something and your child looks crestfallen, they look like they have just had a weight drop right on them, you're gonna want to say to them, "What did you just hear me say?" Right? And so having them reflect it back to you can really show whether or not you've said something that hit a nerve that you need to go back and correct. One of the things I say to parents over and over and over again, is you can always go back and try again. You can always go back and say, "You know what? I don't know that you heard that the way I meant it in my head. So we're going to try again, and I want to tell it to you differently." There's nothing wrong with knowing that you have to try again. And that's something that I wished I'd known as a parent much earlier in my parenting journey. Because I think there were a lot of things I could have said differently.Andy: And I'll say this over and over again: It's a heck of a lot harder to break your kid than you think it is. They are far more durable and forgiving. And owning when you have a misstep as a parent, because we're going to make thousands and thousands of those missteps, is really the key here.Lisa: So when we finally got the report back from the school evaluation, it was — it was a relief to both my husband and I. It was a relief because it backed up what we thought all along. And it confirmed that we were not mishandling our son or just not doing a good job helping him through school. It was a relief that everything we thought was true — as strange as that sounds, because you wouldn't wish these problems on anybody. But you can't begin to fix a problem unless you know what the problem is. And we had confirmation of what the problem was.Andy: In today's episode, we've talked about the whys and hows of the school evaluation process, breaking down common myths and highlighting how kids can benefit from evaluations. Over the next nine episodes, we'll have a chance to dig deeper into various parts of the evaluation process. But if you there's one thing you can take away from this introductory episode, it's that evaluations are designed to help kids thrive by learning about both their strengths and their needs. The other big takeaway is that the more schools can help kids and families understand the evaluation process, the more likely they are to fully engage in the process and benefit from it. As always, remember that as a parent, you're the first and best expert on your child.In our next episode, we'll talk about how schools and families decide if a child needs to be evaluated. We hope you'll join us. You've been listening to Season 1 of "Understood Explains" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we've mentioned in the episode. And now, just as a reminder of who we're doing this all for, I'm going to turn it over to Benjamin to read our credits. Take it away, Benjamin.Benjamin: "Understood Explains" is produced by Julie Rawe and Cody Nelson, who also did the sound design for the show. Briana Berry is our production director. Andrew Lee is our editorial lead. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also makes the show, For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. A very special thanks to Amanda Morin and all the other parents and experts who helped us make this show. Thanks for listening and see you next time.Andy: Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.
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In ItWhy we cry in IEP meetings
Anyone who’s ever sat in on an IEP meeting can confirm: When parents and teachers meet to discuss the needs of a child who’s struggling in school, emotions tend to run high.Anyone who’s ever sat in on an IEP meeting can confirm: When parents and teachers meet to discuss the needs of a child who’s struggling in school, emotions tend to run high.On this first episode of In It, hosts Amanda Morin and Lexi Walters Wright dig into why. They talk with comedian Dena Blizzard about her (very) public reaction to a disappointing IEP meeting. They also connect with expert Mark Griffin, PhD, about what’s at stake during these meetings.Plus, we hear from other families who’ve cried out of frustration and relief. And Amanda shares why all IEP meeting tables should be round.Related resourcesOur community weighs in: Crying at IEP meetingsMom’s emotional video about IEP frustration goes viral5 questions with Dena Blizzard, comedian and parent of a child with learning and thinking differencesEpisode transcriptAmanda Morin: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin, a writer, recovering teacher, and parent advocate. Lexi Walters Wright: And I'm Lexi Walters Wright, Community Manager for Understood, and we are "In It." "In It" is a podcast from Understood for Parents. On this show, we offer support and some practical advice for families whose kids are struggling with reading, math, focus, and other learning and thinking differences. And today, we're talking about IEP meetings and how they can bring up a lot of emotions. Dena Blizzard: I'm sitting here and the teachers are sitting here, and we're all trying to put all of our feedback on the table. And find the best way to teach this one kid, who's different than everybody else. Lexi: First up we're going to hear from Dena Blizzard. Dena is a comedian, a mom, and the creator of the One Funny Mother video series. A few of those videos have gone viral. Dena: For a fun way to spice up your Easter egg hunt, try an Easter wine hunt! Amanda: But one of the One Funny Mother videos that went viral was not funny. You may have seen it on Facebook. It's been viewed half a million times now. Dena shot it from the driver's seat of her car. She tells us she is in the parking lot of a CBS. Dena: I said "Isn't this what we should be doing? We should be trying." And she looked at me, and she said, "I am not going to be making any changes to her IEP. That is the high school's job, and if the high school wants to make changes because they think that that is best, then that's what the high school can do." And then my head exploded.Lexi: Amanda, we're going to talk to Dena in a minute. But first, what is an IEP meeting? Amanda: Well, IEP stands for Individualized Education Program. And an IEP meeting is where you as a parent sit down with all of the educators who are working with your child to talk about that program which provides all of the special education services and other services your child needs to be really successful in school. Lexi: Got it. So back to Dena Blizzard. We wanted to talk to her about her infamous post-IEP meeting meltdown. And appropriately we reached her, or technically she reached us, from her car between errands and appointments. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Dena: Sure! I'm a mother of three. My kids are 18, 16, and 14 now. And many, many years ago when they were very young and I wanted to get away from them, I started doing standup. And everything I wrote about was my kids and my husband. And somehow that kind of flourished into an off-Broadway show that we wrote. So we were off-Broadway in 2016. Now we travel around the country with that show. And then in between we started making videos. Most of the videos are funny. But one of our other big videos was the one you were talking about which is after an IEP meeting for my daughter. And it didn't go well. Amanda: And that's the moments that you said, it's not always funny, right? Dena: No, and it was interesting because, you know, up until that point I had never gone live upset before. But I remember thinking, "Why am I always crying after an IEP meeting?" Like it was just ridiculous, and thinking, "I can't be the only person crying in a parking lot, you know, after an IEP meeting." Like I've done it too many times. And that's I think the very lonesome part of the whole process. You think, "I'm the only one." Lexi: Of course, Dena is not the only one. So we put out a call to the Understood Community to hear about your experiences with getting emotional in IEP meetings. Here's what you shared. Jennifer: Hi, this is Jennifer in Seattle. Yes, I've gotten emotional at IEP meetings. It would probably be faster to ask when I had not gotten emotional. What's tough is how negative these meetings feel. It often seems like I'm the only one in the room who likes my kid and wants him to succeed. And then there's the constant focus on what is wrong that drives me nuts. I know we can't fix it if we don't know what's broken. But why don't we ever get what he's achieved? That often seems glossed over at the end. And then I'm being pressured to sign and run out the door as if I agree that my beautiful child is broken when he is not. Parent: We recently had an IEP for my son, and when the teacher was told that he has an ASD diagnosis, she said, "I don't teach those kind of kids, and I don't know how to teach those kinds of kids. And isn't there a special classroom he should be put in?" And that made me really upset, and tears came to my eyes. It's very humiliating to cry in an IEP. But when you hear something like that, you can see a long fight ahead, and know that in the end, your child's probably going to lose that fight. Lexi: Dena, will you set the scene for us? So where were you, when was this, and will you describe a little bit of what happened? Dena: Sure. So, my daughter, I knew in like second or third grade that something was kind of going on. My older two kids are. you know. what we consider to be typical learners. But very early on I could tell that there was just something different. But now fast-forward and it has been six years. She was in eighth grade and anxiety plays a really big role in her journey. And I was being told all the time that anxiety was the problem and that there wasn't a learning disability. So we had finally gotten her anxiety under control, and I was really then focused on trying to get a really good read on, you know, does she have a learning disability? I really think that she did, but she hadn't been assessed in the three years. And so I went in and I asked for a meeting and I said, "You know, I really want to talk about how she keeps failing these tests. But yet she can verbally tell me what she understands. And so that was my general question. She was transitioning to high school and I was like, it was around April, and I felt like we had the time to really try different testing methods so that when she got to high school, we were going to get an accurate understanding of what she knew. And so I had gone in and I was just like, let's do this together, let's work on it. But it wasn't until the case manager just put her hands on the table, and I just remember seeing her hands going on the table and her saying, "Let me be very clear. We will be making no changes to the IEP." Dena: So, she said, "I'm not making any changes to the IEP. You can deal with that at the high school." And I said, "What are you talking about? We have three months left. Why wouldn't we make changes to the IEP now? Why wouldn't we try everything?" I'm just, I'm sorry.Amanda: So Dena shared that Facebook Live video on a Monday. By Thursday, 100,000 people had watched it. And in that time she got more than 3,000 comments. Dena: You know, besides the comments that you see on the video, you know, just thousands probably of emails, private emails, of people just kind of telling their stories. And even emails from people that I've seen their kids grow up and I've known them for years. I never knew that their kids had any issues, and it really struck me because I thought, you know, people just don't talk about it. You know, it wasn't until I was like having a complete breakdown that people were reaching out. And I just felt and I still feel like, you know, the more that people talk about it, the more it's not a thing, you know, it shouldn't be that hard. And there was a lot of actual school districts and training facilities for special ed that reached out and said, you know, would you mind if we use your video for training purposes? We're training people to work in special ed. And, you know, we want them to see what it looks like on the other side. Amanda: Mark, how many IEP meetings do you think you've attended in your life? Mark Griffin: Oh, hundreds. Lexi: Mark Griffin is a psychologist, a special educator, and a founding headmaster of Eagle Hill School, a school for kids with learning and thinking differences. And over the course of his four decades there, he attended many, many IEP meetings. Amanda: I want to know from your experience as an educator, why do you think these meetings tend to be so emotional for parents? Mark: Well, I think what happens to parents, even though you get a smile and a nod all the time and they're, you know, they're excited about it and they've done their homework, that as you go through the process there's just so much at stake. And that this is the chance that they are hoping is going to be the difference between this youngster having an opportunity over time to be successful or having an opportunity, unfortunately, not to be successful and slipping through the cracks. So, I do think that there's a sense of fear. There's a sense that this school is sort of viewing this from the standpoint of what they have to do. And so unless everything happens to go very smoothly, and I have to say that the number and number and number of these things that we attended, there were very few where there wasn't at some point some kind of contention about the school's ability to provide those resources.Lexi: Mark says he understands why these meetings can get so heated, especially for parents. Mark: I think parents get to the point where, in their own sort of need to be sure that they are advocating as well as they possibly can, that there's bound to be a time during that meeting where they are going to feel very emotional about it. I've seen parents, you know, openly weep in an IEP meeting, when they honestly feel that they're just not going to get what their child needs. I've seen parents who threaten the school with lawsuits. They're going to lawyer up and make sure that the school will do these things that they're supposed to do. I've seen parents who have been very frustrated with the entire process and wonder out loud whether the school really has the best interest of their child at heart. And sometimes they're emotionally happy. It went just the way that they wanted to. And at the end of the meeting, both of the parents are weeping because they got what they needed, or they got what they felt that their child needed. But very rarely do they end up being stoic kinds of, very easy to get the consensus, "thank you very much for this program and that's wonderful." Lexi: So Mark, here's what I want to know about. There's about 15 minutes after the IEP meeting is over. What do you do as an educator, and what do you wish parents would do after that really high-stakes, really emotional experience to make the whole thing feel like it's come full circle for them? Mark: For parents, it seems to make the most sense and, if you can gather yourself and sort of reflect on what your hopes had been when it ran into reality, when reality moved closer to your hopes, what you ended up with as a final thing. And then I think that it's always important for us as educators who happen to have been at that meeting, but it's certainly most important for parents to sort of take a deep breath and back up. And then it's important to remember, even early on, that this is not etched in stone. That this is the beginnings of a journey and a process, and you need to look at the long term and the long haul even though you've just finished the very beginning part of it. Melissa: My name is Melissa. I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I have an 11-year-old son with ADHD and disruptive mood dysregulation disorder. He's been on an IEP since first grade, and I've felt every emotion on the scale during IEP meetings. At first it was anger and frustration, because even though he was being suspended from class and excluded from field trips because he was considered a danger to himself in kindergarten, we could not get an IEP even started. It finally got in place in first grade. He ended up finishing third grade in the hospital. But one of the positive things that came out of that was that the school really started to take seriously his mental health concerns. And they switched up his IEP by fifth grade and he thrived. I had IEP meetings after that where I cried because I was happy. And recently, after a really tough first month of middle school, we had an IEP meeting where I cried because they were giving me so many examples of just how well he was able to figure things out now. They would tell us about simple social interactions he would have that probably every other parent takes for granted, but that he had never pulled off successfully. So hearing about these responses he was having to other kids was so amazing that I couldn't not cry at that point. Lexi: So Amanda, you're the parent of two kids with learning and thinking differences. So you know what IEP meetings are like from that perspective. But before that, I know you were also a teacher for many years. How many IEP meetings did you attend as an educator? Amanda: I've probably attended over 100 IEP meetings as an educator. Lexi: Do you wear a different hat now that you're on the other side of the table? Amanda: I like to think they're all roundtables instead of... Lexi: Yeah, that's really interesting. Will you say more about that? Amanda: Well, I think that if we look at it as one side of the table or the other side of the table, we fail to realize that in the middle of that table is the kid that we're all trying to help. So I love all IEP tables to be roundtables. Lexi: Dena, do you have any advice for parents going into IEP meetings? Dena: You know, I really, really never wanted to feel like I was fighting the school. And so many times it just ended that way. I just remember one meeting sitting on my side of the table and then like 13 administrators on the other side. And you know, I was just thinking even the seating arrangement feels very uncomfortable. And so trying to constantly just use words like "we." And I do feel like the more people that are on board in to kind of helping you find a resolution, find a solution, the more the better. And I think that that's why that video was so upsetting, is that that was the moment where I realized, you know, that we weren't on the same page. And so you know I just had to take a step back and just, you know, I was like, she is not a good match for me. She is not my people. I'm a big fan of finding your people. And she was not a good person for my team. And so we just had to re-evaluate the team and get a different team, you know, and even making Brooke feel like she was part of that team and trying to get her to understand, you know, the things that she struggles with and the things that she's great at, and for her to come up with some of her own solutions. Dena: And so, you know, I think that, you know, I tell her all the time, like, you have so many people in your corner that are trying to help you manage all of this for you to learn what you need to learn, and so, you know, a lot of times it's a struggle. You know, even when we got her set up at this new school. I had done all this work and really fought to kind of get this to happen. And then we started the school, and then she said, "You know, I really don't think that it's going well in my history class." And I said, "OK." I said, "Why is that?" "Well, I'm not learning anything. You know, all we do is worksheets." And I said, "OK so what are you learning about?" She goes, "The Enlightenment." And I said, "OK. Well what do you know about the Enlightenment?" She was like, "Well, it was a period of time when people realized that they could just learn anything if they just open a book." And she just went on and on. Right. And the she just stopped. She goes, "Wait a minute. I guess I did learn something." I go, "Yeah, that's the most I've ever heard you say about anything."Amanda: Did your daughter watch the video?Dena: She didn't for a long time and then, I don't know, maybe two months later, just out of the blue, even the kids have... and she just looked at me. She was kind of sad. And she was like, "I saw your video."Lexi: Was that like for you?Dena: You know, I think she knows how hard that I fight for her. And I think she appreciates it. You know, I think she is just such a unique case and so self-aware that she gets it. She was like, "Thank you."Amanda: Dena, thank you so much for talking to us.Dena: Thanks, ladies.Lexi: Amanda, do these meetings ever get easier?Amanda: I think they get a little bit easier. I don't know if they're always easy, but it can get a little bit easier. And you get a little bit more comfortable. But sometimes they blindside you, and they aren't easy. I had an IEP meeting the other day, and I came out and cried, and it wasn't even a tough one.Lexi: Is it just so emotional to have a bunch of potential strangers talking about your kid and what they think he needs?Amanda: I think so. I also think that there's just this piece of it where you're ready for anything, and then there's just sort of either a letdown or an anger or an overload or just this emotional wellspring.Lexi: What did you do right afterwards?Amanda: I ate lots of chocolate.Lexi: Yeah, I thought that might be what you would say.Lexi: You've been listening to "In It," a podcast from Understood for Parents. Our website is Understood.org, where you can find all sorts of free resources for people raising kids with learning and thinking differences. We also want to hear what you think of this podcast. "In It" is for you. We want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/podcast to share your thoughts and also to see show notes from this episode and find more resources. That's the letter U, as in U, u.org/podcast.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Share it with the parents at your bus stop. Tell your special education support group. Or you can send a link to your child's pediatrician. You can also go to Apple podcasts and rate us, which is a great way to let other people know about "In It.".Lexi: You can subscribe to "In It" on Apple podcasts. Follow us on Spotify, or keep up with us however you listen to podcasts. Between episodes, you can find understood on Facebook, Twitter, and Pinterest, or visit our website: U.org/podcast. That's the letter U, dot org, slash podcast. And come back next episode when we'll be talking about what happens when somebody asks you, "Is ADHD real?" Parent: The most clueless thing that somebody said to me about ADHD is basically that it is just an excuse. It's just an excuse to medicate kids. It's just an excuse for lazy kids that don't want to do homework.Lexi: "In It" is a production Understood for Parents. Our show is produced by Blake Eskin of Noun and Verb Rodeo and Julie Subrin. We record at Argot Studios. Mike Errico wrote our theme music and Laura Kusnyer is the director of editorial content at Understood for Parents.Amanda: We appreciate you all being in it with us. And thanks for listening. Talk to you next time.
This back-to-school season, Understood is supporting family-educator relationships
September 2020Whether students return to school in person or continue with distance learning, this year it’s vital for families and educators to work together to support children who learn and think differently. As students who learn and think differently enter a school year unlike any before, Understood’s back-to-school resources center around the power of parent-teacher relationships. Our goal is to help strengthen communication and collaboration between families and educators by providing information about: Safety considerations for students who learn and think differentlySpecial education during the pandemic Social-emotional learning for students with and without disabilities How to address the impact of the COVID slideAccessibility approaches for in-person and distance learningCreating a safe space for open conversations about racial injusticeMany children will be entering the virtual and physical classrooms of teachers they’ve never met before. By sharing information about how students fared this past spring, families and educators can start the school year strong. A lot of kids have experienced trauma or food insecurity, or they’ve had loved ones pass away. Open communication can help educators understand each student’s unique needs and situations. Juliana Urtubey, an Understood Teacher Fellow and fourth- and fifth-grade special education teacher in Las Vegas, is also prioritizing parent-teacher collaboration to ensure that the school can make thoughtful considerations on the child’s behalf. “The only way educators and schools can do that is through close and genuine partnership with families,” says Juliana. “No matter what the need is, let us know. No matter what the challenge is, let us know.”Understood, teachers, and families are working toward the same goal: exceptional care and education for all students.
The Opportunity GapEmpowering English language learners
English language learners bring unique perspectives to the classroom. It’s important for teachers to learn about their strengths and challenges. English language learners bring unique perspectives to the classroom. Their diverse backgrounds and experiences often impact how they learn, too. So, it’s important for teachers to take the time to learn about their strengths and challenges. Learning a new language is hard work. Multilingual students are often learning how to read, write, and do math in that new language all at the same time. In this episode, listen as Understood expert Dr. Claudia Rinaldi explains:How teachers can create inclusive learning environments Why ELL are both overrepresented and underrepresented in special educationWays schools can build stronger partnerships with ELL and their familiesRelated resourcesUnderstood’s article 4 challenges of English language learners who learn and think differently Understood’s article: Learning and thinking differences in the Hispanic community In It episode: Joy and justice with Juliana Urtubey, National Teacher of the Year Episode transcriptJulian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. And there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. Welcome back, listeners. I am very excited because we're kicking off our third season with an incredible episode. September 15th will mark the start of National Hispanic Heritage Month. During this month, we celebrate the histories, the cultures, and the contributions of American citizens whose ancestors came from Spain, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Central and South America. Shout out to my father, Andres Saavedra. He was born and raised in Havana, Cuba. I'm very excited to represent my culture as well. In today's episode, we're talking about supporting English language learners in special education. During the course of this episode, we may refer to students as English learners, multilingual learners, or students in English language acquisition programs. The terms may differ depending on which region of the country you're located. We're also going to be talking about how to identify learning and thinking differences in English language learners. And how do parents in schools find a better way to work together to support our students? To dive deeper into this important topic, we've invited a very special guest, Dr. Claudia Rinaldi. Dr. Claudia is a full professor of education at La Salle University. She's also an expert, and I mean like OG expert. She's been with Understood since the beginning. Please welcome Dr. Claudia. What's up, Dr. Claudia?Dr. Claudia: Good afternoon, everybody. It's good to see you today. Thank you for the invitation to join you on this very special month that we'll be celebrating. And I'm happy to be here as your expert and also a parent of a child with a disability. Julian: Oh, thank you so much. So, we always like to start off our show with just a little icebreaker to get us talking, get us familiar a little bit. And it is the fall season, and I'm wondering what's your favorite thing about fall? Dr. Claudia: Definitely the changing leaves. I used to live up in Boston, Massachusetts, and that was my favorite season was just going around taking pictures of the trees every day, the colors they change and I just miss that a lot now that I live in Florida. What about you? Julian: Oh, I used to live in Boston as well. We can share some stories. Boston Common looks beautiful in the fall. Dr. Claudia: Yes. Oh, my God yes. I miss that. Julian: But you don't miss that snow. So, enjoy your 75 degree December. Enjoy it. Let's jump in. So, you know, the diversity among English language learners is extremely rich, right? There's no two students that are the same. They come from a variety of cultural backgrounds. And so many of our students bring these unique perspectives and experiences to the classroom. This experience influenced their approach not only to learning English but to their experience in the classroom overall. As many of our listeners know, I serve honorably as an assistant principal in an urban high school in Philadelphia, and I have students from all over the city, but in some cases all over the world coming to our school. A couple of years ago, I had a student who was a refugee from Afghanistan, right? And he had gone to very prestigious schools, his father was a diplomat, and although he didn't know English well, his knowledge of science and biology and algebra was extremely high quality, because he had gone to these amazing schools back in Kabul. In the same class, I had a student who had come from Guatemala and they were the same age, both on the same level of English language learning. But the student from Guatemala had never gone to school past the third grade. They both were English language learners, but their school based knowledge was very different. And so, when we talk about the idea of English language learners, there's such a diversity of culture, diversity of experience, diversity of knowledge about just school in general. And I want to make sure we call that out. So, as our expert, Dr. Claudia, how can teachers effectively leverage these types of experiences to create a more inclusive learning environment?Dr. Claudia: Julian is such a rich experience that you shared and this question about how we can leverage those experiences to create a more inclusive environment it's so key, because I do think in many cases the teachers see the students as a blank slate over the beginning of every year, and they also see students who are learning English as all the same. And you just shared two really rich experiences about students with very different opportunity to learn the content and also the different life experiences from different parts of the world. So, I think one of the ways to leverage those experiences is actually to really connect personally with each student, right? We need teachers who show an interest in learning about the different cultures of their children by asking them having opportunity to sit with them, or even inviting the parents in to share about their culture and doing their own research about different cultures and what their political, educational, familial, traditional, medical kind of experiences are that may be different from ours. I think when you live in the US, we feel like the center of the world, but in reality there's lots of centers of the world. So, we need to open up our opportunity to learn from different cultures and what those students can bring to our classroom. I came here from Bogotá, Colombia, back when I was ten years old, and I didn't know a word of English, but I had been, like your student of Afghanistan, I had gone to private school and I had really rich literacy skills, and my experience was very different to the little boy that I came in with that had gone off a boat from Cuba, coincidentally. And he ran to shore to get political asylum. And we were both sitting at the same English language levels. The teacher treated us like the same student, right? In fact, even in that school, we didn't even have an English as a second language teacher to help us out. We were just like, fully immersed. And it took me a year to realize that all my teachers spoke Spanish and I could have asked for a lot of support, and I just didn't know it because the teachers never took the time to really get to know me and what I knew and what I brought from my culture and my experiences that my counterpart, for example, a friend of mine, didn't have. Leveraging that communication and that relationship, so that they feel like they're part of the classroom. They feel that their experiences are valued. They feel that the education they know is valuable, and that they feel that however they got to the United States was a miracle and a triumphant way that their families wanted to come here to create a different experience. Julian: I love that you referenced the idea of opportunity and relationships so much, right? There's this giant opportunity to really be a welcoming environment and a supportive environment. And on top of integrating into a new society, just being into a new environment educationally could be an extremely big challenge. The students have to adapt. Knowing this, Dr. Claudia, how do these differences in education and their educational experience, how do these differences influence a student's transition and impact or affect their academic performance? Dr. Claudia: So, one of the main differences that we find is for children like the child you discussed you had as an assistant principal, that did not have but a third grade education and was now in high school, knowing whether the child is literate in their first language. It's really important to find out. Because if they are literate in their first language, we should leverage that language in order for us to teach them English. And what I mean with that is, there's plenty of research that tells us that if the students have a strong native language literacy skill, they can more easily and faster transfer to English. It's particularly faster when the languages are transparent, like English and Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, right? But either way, having the native language literacy skills actually impact the learning speed of English. But if we don't know whether the children are literate in their first language, then we can't help them to make that transition. Again, going back to the idea that if we assume that all students are the same when they're get to our classrooms and they're all learning English at a level one and don't know any English and don't bring anything, then we can't really teach them what they really need to do to learn English faster and more appropriately, right? So, for example, if we think about the kind of skills that we asked students to do, one is learn new vocabulary and then use that vocabulary. And a lot of those vocabulary words that we use in content areas like "identify," "list," are things that are very similar in other languages. So, they may have those already. Now if we have a child that does not have literacy in their native language, what we want to know is, what do they know in general, like knowledge that they know and then make a decision whether it is more effective to teach them using their native language, particularly as they get older than just put them into English. Because their native language, they have a rich vocabulary, right? They're speaking, even if they don't know how to read. They have rich vocabulary in their speaking language and listening and speaking. You know, it's still up to the teacher and the parents to kind of say, "okay, he does have a rich vocabulary. We should probably begin with our native language," and in languages like Portuguese and Spanish, we could teach a student to read in three months, basic reading skills. So, if we could leverage those, then we can make that transition into learning the English content in much more effective ways. But again, it goes back to knowing the student and also getting to know their literacy skills and also taking into account their effect. Like, did they have a traumatic experience coming into this country? Again, did they cross the border and they're running for their life? or, did they get off a plane and they came with their parents because they were able to? That brings a lot of differences. I think all students who immigrate to United States come with some trauma. That's why trauma-based practices are important. Julian: Everything you just raised, it's hard work from an instructional standpoint to not only know your student, know what their levels academically are. Know that there's so many emotional things that are happening all at once. I'd love for you to talk more about just some things that teachers can do to help students navigate some of that emotional toll that it takes, you know, coming into a new place. Dr. Claudia: Good question, Julian. And I think some of those very tangible kinds of things that teachers can do is ensure that your students are eating, because if we're eating, we can learn. Ensuring that the students come to school and feel safe. So, that's a big one. Feeling of safety allows students to relax and be able to learn and take in the environment. Find them a peer that could be a good support system for them throughout the day as they make the transition. And sit and talk with them. Look to get insight into, again, anything that you know about them and start building a relationship. For example, even if you don't know the language using Google Translate at first or bringing in a peer that can translate, you know, smiling. Remember, they're scared. They're more scared because they're in the new place. Julian: Yeah. A smile goes such a long way. It's simple, but it's so, so effective, right?Dr. Claudia: Yes, it really does. Julian: There was a study that the U.S. Department of Education conducted where they found that English language learners with learning disabilities represent 13.8% of the total ELL population enrolled in U.S. public elementary and secondary schools. So, thinking about that, when it comes to special education, English language learners are often either overrepresented or conversely, underrepresented in special education. Dr. Claudia, can you tell us more about first, why would multilingual language learners or English learners, why would they be overrepresented in special education? Dr. Claudia: And I get this question asked a lot, which is, the overrepresentation, why does it happen? The main reason is I think a lot of teachers are not prepared to work with students who are learning English in their classroom and they're looking for help. And the easiest way to get help is through special education. The challenge is that just because you're learning a language doesn't mean that you have a disability. And so, it's really important that we follow a process of data collection, parent interview observation and really collect a lot of information that tells a story about the student. But sometimes, and in many cases, this the group that is put together to do that evaluation, they didn't know that the child was learning English. They just thought the child was very quiet because their child they didn't answer correctly. And so one of the important aspects of addressing overrepresentation of English learners in special education is ensuring that our assessment or evaluation process really takes into account the child's native language and that when appropriate, that we evaluate them in their native language. Because the best way to understand whether a disability happens is if their disability is shown in both their native language and in English. Yeah, that underrepresentation is also evident in some districts and again, it is driven by uninformed professionals who tell teachers, "No, you can't jump to get extra help in special education. You have to wait until the student is a level four or five in English, meaning close to English speaking students before you can refer them to special education." Let's say you come in and you have an English learner who's a level one or two, but you definitely feel that the child is significantly behind in their native language, in English, or there's very little growth over time. And then the teacher got the message that we cannot refer them to special education until they're a level four. It may take the child four or five years to get to that level. And in the meantime, they're not being able to access the general curriculum and learn as much as it could have with the support of special education if they indeed had a learning disability or any other kind of disability that they brought. Julian: Dr. Claudia, you've referenced different levels in English language acquisition a few times. Can you clarify for the listeners when you refer to a level one versus a level four?Dr. Claudia: Sure. So, link English language acquisition as a process of learning English and the way that schools measure that English language acquisition or development is through evaluation tools that tells them where in the English language development process they're at. Typically, all agree that levels one or twos are what we call, you know, almost non-speaking English. They're probably coming in with little to no English. And then it takes about a year to go from one level to another. That means that it takes between 5 to 7 years to become as close as you can to a native language speaker. So, if you could think about that, if you have a child that's coming in in kindergarten, they are not going to be fully fluent in English for academic purposes until they're somewhere between grade five and grade seven. They should be getting English as a second language support, and the general teacher and the ESL teacher should be working together to make sure that the child is accessing the curriculum in the most appropriate way, depending on their level.Julian: That makes a lot of sense. So, given your experience, not only as a former English language learner, as a student, but now in your professional experience. Given that it's so difficult and there's a lot of different things happening in different school systems, what are some ways that schools and school districts can form stronger partnerships between English language learners and their families? Dr. Claudia: Yeah, Julian, that's something that we struggle a lot across the United States. Some school districts do it a little better than other, but I think it takes the commitment of a school district or and a school to think about parent engagement not from a one-way directional from the school to the parents delivering information, but to really make it a mutual or interactive commitment to working with them. I've seen schools that, again, are purchasing apps that allow parents to receive information in multiple languages. Obviously, we have back-to-school parent night, but really preparing so that we can culturally and responsively communicate with these parents that we do want them in our schools and that it is common in the United States for parents to be involved and ask questions and then provide answers through their language. So, really hire those family liaisons, which could be a parent in the school and bring them in for unique opportunities for the parents who speak one language or the other language or students who have disabilities so that they feel that their participation is helping their child beyond just sending them ready to learn. But it does take time and effort. I've had a couple of principals that have coffee hour in Spanish in some of our schools in Boston, and I always thought that was great and it was informal. So, it's not like you were just sitting in a big auditorium, but it felt more familiar. You provided childcare, you provided food and try to see how you can also bring them in to share about their culture. So again, so that it is interactive relationship rather than a just one way directionality from the school to the parents. I think for students with disabilities, as we think about them, they should even have a unique group themselves because what parents of children with disabilities go through is different than what their parent for a child who's typical goes through. So, I think thinking about different groups and maybe engaging teachers to take leadership in offering those times or offering other venues that are like Zoom or even just phone chats where you could have a group chat that is interactive and parents can ask questions, or if they are afraid of immigration status or if they're afraid of asking a question again, it creates different entry points for parents to ask for supports and additional resources that they may need. Julian: I appreciate that. There's so many great tips that you offered, especially just overarching making sure that our families feel like they're supported and that they have a welcoming environment and meeting them on their level is really important. That two-way street of communication is instrumental in building a relationship. Listeners, I do want to call out that there are federal rights that parents and students are entitled to within the school, no matter what. In recent times, we've seen an emergence of sanctuary schools within sanctuary cities and like sanctuary cities, these schools are committed to protecting undocumented students and their families from federal immigration enforcement, especially in school spaces. So, Dr. Claudia, could you share with our listeners some very specific examples of ways that sanctuary schools protect students and their families?Dr. Claudia: Sure. Sanctuary schools protect students because they have a commitment to ensuring that nobody is asking about those immigration issues that families come with. In many cases, these schools also have a lot of connections to other resources in the communities that helps families and students with a variety of challenges with immigration or medical needs or whatever it may be, living situations. It's really important, I think, as the schools make a concerted effort to be sanctuary schools, that we share the information of what they're doing because they serve almost as models for other schools. As you said, Julian, we have many laws in the United States that protect our civil rights for anyone who lives here, despite of your immigration status. And so, it is important if your child has a potential disability or you feel they're not developing that they should or that it is different than your other children. You know, you don't worry about, you know, your immigration status. The schools are not able to ask you about that information. And they should be providing special education services to any child who needs that. It's called a free and appropriate education in the least restrictive environment. It is really important to realize that those civil rights laws that protect all of us that live in the United States are there in schools as well to provide the best opportunity for students as they move forward. Julian: Yes. What a great way to end. I could sit and speak with you for a lot longer, but I think we really got to a place where we start off Season 3 really strong. So, I'm just really excited that you decided to join us Dr. Claudia. Your insight, your experience, it all just made for a fantastic show, so I can't thank you enough from myself as the host, but also to all the listeners. We really appreciate you joining us. Dr. Claudia: Thank you for having me and being able to share with our community who desperately needs support and services that their children deserve and that we can provide. So, I love talking with you as well, and I hope this season continues to go really well. Julian: Appreciate it. So, thank you, Dr. Claudia. And thank you to the O.G. listeners, "The Opportunity Gap" listeners for tuning in. Season 3 is beginning. Before we go, I have a few resources to share that all of you might find helpful. And I also have a quick little exciting announcement. So, first Understood.org's article Four Challenges of English Language Learners Who Learn and Think Differently. Check that out. Another article for you, Understood.org Experts Weigh in Learning and Thinking Differences in the Hispanic Community, and then listen to how this teacher is making learning joyful for all English language learners in an episode of "In It," another fantastic podcast on the Understood.org podcast lineup. But for the exciting announcement, our next episode airing later this month — make sure you tune in — is going to be recorded all in Spanish. Todo en español. No longer Julian; it is el presentador Julian. And I'm excited because my simple Spanish gets to get broken in and we get to have an entire episode in Spanish. We are super excited to do this and it's been a long time coming, so we really are excited for you all to check it out, listen, share with your friends that we're really trying to broaden our audience and as Dr. Claudia said, to raise issues that desperately need to be raised and desperately need support. Till' next time. Julian: "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks edited by Cin Pim. Ilana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
6 back-to-school challenges for impulsive kids
Settling into any new school year can be tough for kids who struggle with impulsivity. Here are six common problems impulsive kids run into when school starts — and what you can do to help.1. Your child is rushing through summer reading and math work.What it might look like: Summer work has fallen off everyone’s radar. Now that school is looming, your child is racing through the work way too fast, skipping over things and making careless errors.How you can help: Impulsive kids may be extra impulsive when a task seems overwhelming. Help make the homework more manageable by breaking it down into small sections. Encourage your child to work on just one section at a time.2. Your child has pre-judged this year’s teacher.What it might look like: Your child heard a few negative comments about the teacher from older friends. Now anytime someone mentions the start of school, your child repeats the negative gossip.How you can help: Kids who are impulsive often repeat the first thing that comes to mind. So talk about the traits your child likes in teachers — especially if you know that the new teacher has some of these characteristics. And compare the new teacher to good teachers your child had in the past.3. Your child is excited about school and forgets lesson materials.What it might look like: No matter where learning is taking place, your child might be super excited about starting again. But with all the excitement, your child shows up for lessons without the necessary materials.How you can help: Work with your child at night to get everything ready, whether it’s going into a backpack or waiting in a workspace at home. Check in with your child before bedtime to make sure it’s all in one place.4. Your child overshares about what happened over the summer.What it might look like: Most students talk about their summer experiences during the first few days of school. They’re often asked to share their stories with the class, too. But your child goes on and on and talks over others while they’re trying to share.How you can help: Before school starts, role-play giving others a chance to talk. Talk about what is and isn’t appropriate to share, especially if your family has had difficult experiences over the summer. 5. Your child reacts in a negative way to what classmates say.What it might look like: Other kids are talking about what they’re looking forward to in the new school year. Your child is anxious about school and responds by blurting out negative comments.How you can help: Your child may unintentionally insult other kids by saying the first thing that comes to mind. Help your child practice more positive responses. Try phrases like “Sounds like fun,” “That would be awesome,” or even “I hope that happens.”6. Your child tries to one-up classmates by exaggerating.What it might look like: Impulsive kids tend to exaggerate. Your child might say things that aren’t true to impress other kids and gain their attention. How you can help: Explain how you can be respectful of others while still sharing cool things about yourself. For example, when kids are talking about something they did over the summer, encourage your child to say things like “Sounds like you had a lot of fun. I had fun, too. I loved….” That way, your child won’t need to exaggerate.Concerned about how your child will handle new routines and safety measures this year? Use this back-to-school update to share your concerns with the teacher.
In ItHow to advocate for your kid at school
Learn ways to advocate for your child at school while maintaining a good relationship with their teachers. If you think your child is struggling at school, what’s the best way to make sure they’re getting the support they need? Who should you talk to first? Should you call a meeting, send an email, or do something else?In this episode of In It, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek welcome Julian Saavedra. Julian is an assistant principal in Philadelphia and the host of another Understood podcast, The Opportunity Gap. Julian shares tips and strategies about what to do if your child needs more — or different — support in the classroom. He also provides a road map of where to start advocating for your child, plus how to work as a team with your child’s teachers and school.Related resources8 steps to advocating for your child at schoolPodcast: How to get kids to talk about schoolHow to use accommodations and modifications in the classroomEpisode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: ...the ups and downs...Gretchen: ...of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor with a family that's definitely in it. Today, we're talking about how to advocate for your kid with learning and thinking differences at school.Gretchen: Who should you turn to when it seems like they're not getting the support they need? And what can and should we expect from our kids' teachers, whose experiences with IEPs and 504s can range from extensive to very little?Rachel: Helping us to figure this all out today is Julian Saavedra. Julian is an assistant principal at a big high school in Philadelphia and a father of two kids, and he's been an educator for 20 years.Gretchen: Julian hosts "The Opportunity Gap," a fantastic show from the Understood Podcast Network, that's all about advocating for kids of color who have learning and thinking differences.Rachel: He's been on "In It" before, and we're so happy to have him here again.Gretchen: All right, Julian, welcome back to the podcast. Woohoo! Julian: Hey, Gretchen. Hey, Rachel. Thank you so much for having me.Gretchen: Hello. We are so happy to talk with you today. And we're really happy to dig into this topic of communicating with the school about your child. And we thought you'd be the perfect guest, because you are now an assistant principal in a high school. And you're host of "The Opportunity Gap" podcast here at Understood.Julian: I am.Gretchen: And you know a lot about supporting kids with learning and thinking differences.Julian: I know a little bit.Gretchen: You know, a little bit, right?Julian: I know a little bit.Gretchen: So, I want to go back to the time when you started off teaching. Because I have a feeling maybe like, like me, when I started, I was a regular ed teacher at a middle school, and I know now that I knew very little about supporting kids with learning and thinking differences in my very first couple of years of teaching. So, when you think back to your training to become a social studies teacher, right? How much training did you actually get in learning disabilities or special education?Julian: I took one class that was labeled special education. And it really just kind of glossed over the bigger laws. We didn't really nail down into all the different things. Like, I didn't learn about the 13 different ways that you can be categorized. I didn't learn about what an IEP was. I didn't learn about what the general education teacher's responsibility was. And I didn't really learn that until I was teaching and I was invited into an IEP meeting. And I was like, well, what is that? What do we have to do here? And so that was really — I had to learn on the fly.Even today, there's a nontraditional path to teaching that has been increasing. So we're getting a lot of people that are changing careers, or they're getting an alternate certificate to teaching. And so the traditional quote unquote route, it's not even as prevalent as it was back when I was going in the profession. And so any — that little bit of information I got, that's not even close to what people are getting now, which is almost bare minimum.And it's been left to schools to really educate teachers as they come in. And so that's a really big lift. Right? If you're having people that have never been formally trained and yet they have to execute legal documents, right? Because an IEP, it's a legal document, right? And it's a really important thing in servicing kids.And so trying to train people on the fly has been a giant lift for so many schools across the country. And so for me, I didn't receive a lot of training before I got in. Now again, this is 20 years ago, so there's definitely a lot more since I've gone back for my masters. And then I got a second master's degree for my education administration degree. And so when I did that, I really got a lot more training. Because as an administrator, like, we have to know. Like we have to know the laws. We have to know how it impacts things.Rachel: So, can you explain the relationship between special education teachers and general ed teachers, like at a school like yours? So what kind of communication is there between the teachers — or in theory? And when, you know, if you have a kid who's coming into the classroom with an IEP or a 504, or need some other kind of accommodation, what is the kind of like communication that's happening?Julian: Yeah. You know, there's what should be and there's what is. So, the general education teachers should have conversation with the special education teacher that's servicing the students in their classroom as much as possible, right? Like there there should be a planning meeting at least once a week where the general education teacher is showing what are their lesson plans for the upcoming week. How can we work together to provide these services? Right?If there's a student who has ADHD, which is pretty common, maybe an accommodation might be we're going to make sure that the student has a structured break, like every 10 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever we determine. So in the lesson plan, the general education teacher is going to plan out, all right. This kid's going to have this break 10 minutes into this lesson. And they're going to have this break on Thursdays with this particular teacher. So it's something that — it's a conversation. It just doesn't happen out of nowhere.Also, as a case manager — special education teachers traditionally are a case manager. They're the ones that manage the special education services for a student. They want to make sure they're getting information or data collection on that student. And so they have to talk to general education teachers as much as possible.In my school, we have something called PLCs, or professional learning communities, where the teachers from a particular grade level and content area, they meet together once a week. They discuss what they're noticing or what they're seeing. And at that meeting, we earmark some time for special education teachers to connect with general education teachers. And that's where they talk about, well, here's what I'm seeing. Here's what I'm seeing. Let's try this strategy. Let's try that strategy.And so, you know, I know at, at the best schools, it's a day-by-day, period-by-period conversation that's constantly going back and forth. Like in my school, I have a couple of general education and special education teachers. Like they're besties, and they're just bouncing ideas off of each other all the time. They're texting each other constantly. It's like a symbiotic relationship.And to be honest, that's when it's going to work the best, because you got to be on the same page. And you got to be making sure that the changes or the supports that you're putting in place for a student with special education, it's being done with fidelity. Right? Like the general education teacher, they're going to have to be the one to implement it. And so the special education teacher is the one that kind of helps make sure that that happens.Now, is that to say that that always happens? No, not necessarily. And in a school like mine where, you know, we have 700 students, we have over 250 students with individual education plans. And we don't have enough special education teachers. I have anywhere between 10 and 12 vacancies.Gretchen: Oh, currently?Julian: Currently.Gretchen: Oh, boy.Julian: So, our special education teachers, you know, they're strapped. And so they might not have as much time to meet with their students and their teachers and all the general education teachers. Because in high school you're taking all subject matters. And so it's a really big lift for it to actually happen. But in an ideal world, it's happening all the time.Rachel: OK, so let's bring parents and caregivers into the picture.Julian: OK.Rachel: Let's say, hypothetically speaking — but I'm the parent of a student who needs some sort of accommodation in a particular class. And my sense is that my kid is not getting that in. Who do I go to first? And like, you know, I know a lot of people whose kids have a 504s. So, you know, if we can like kind of include that in the mix of the answer to that question. Because I think a lot of people really aren't sure where to start.Julian: Yeah, it's state by state. Every state, every district. Unfortunately, it's not a uniform experience. And so it really depends on where you are. But in Philadelphia, I can explain what happens in Philly. I would first go to your child — like that's the first person, because, you know, they're the person that really knows, no matter what age they are, whether they're in kindergarten or whether they're a senior in high school, they're going to be the ones that you want to really get a good sense of what's happening in the classroom.So, you know, making sure that there's trust built between the two of you to have that conversation. And, you know, we talk a lot about that on our podcast, that that conversation is the starting point.Once you've done that and you have a better sense of, like, what they're seeing or what they're not seeing or what they need help with, then I would advocate to go to a trusted adult at the school. Hopefully that trusted person is — if your student already has an IEP — that would be the special education case manager. Like that's your first point of contact.Like whoever is managing the IEP, that's the person that you should be having a conversation with. And that conversation should be happening consistently. Like there should be a running email, or there should be some sort of running interaction with you, so that you don't just talk once a year. Right? Like the IEP meeting should not be the first time you meet each other.So, and if that — you're not getting the answers from that person, then I would go to a classroom teacher. And then if you're still not getting answers, then I would go to an administrator. Like, those would be my my order. For students with 504s, for students with 504s, depending on what the 504 is for, and in many cases, students with ADHD, the 504 would fall under the purview of the school counselor or potentially the school psychologist.So those would be the people you'd want to connect with first. If the 504 is for something related to medical, then you're connecting with the nurse. The school nurse would be that point of contact.And I would always advocate, families, anything that you do, make sure you put it in writing. Even if it's a text message, like having it in writing, whatever your request is. Or if you're reaching out to somebody even who's trusted, having an email trail or having something in writing, even taking a picture of a note that you might write, just having a record of that, it's just a good practice. Because it's important to have documentation for everything.Rachel: Yeah. And sometimes there's really long phone calls where stuff like that gets figured out, but I usually do like — I'll do an email afterward just to recap. But then I've got it down.Julian: Yep.Gretchen: I really like that you gave us the order of who to go to. And that you said start with your child first. I love that. I want to get to maybe in this order, either you've talked to a trusted adult about maybe your kid's not getting something, or you've talked to the classroom teacher.But before talking to them, you might worry that you're going to sound as if you know better what to do — and you probably you do in a way, right? You know your child and you know a lot. You have a lot to share. But at the same time, you don't want to offend the teacher or make it seem like you're telling them how to do their job.You know, can you do have any watch-outs for parents as to how they might approach that to make sure they're not kind of putting teachers on the defensive?Julian: Yeah. I mean, I'd like to think that anybody who chooses to be an educator, like that they're choosing to work with children. And they're choosing to have the best interests of kids in mind. And so I would hope that they'd be able to put their ego aside and, you know, focus on what's best for the child.And so that might mean getting some feedback that is not positive feedback. And you know that that's very — it's very common. And it's also very common for teachers to feel really personal about what they do. Right? And so when you're hearing from a parent that you're not doing what you think is happening, that could be really hard to hear, right? That could be tough.So, you know, the families, you know, it's all about how you deliver the message. Not necessarily what the message is, but it's how you say it. And so I go back to that word of trust, like, if this is the first time that you're interacting with the teacher and you're telling them something that's not good, that's not so great. Like that's problematic in and of itself. So I would say make sure that the teacher and you as the parent, you're trying your best to build a relationship with those teachers from the beginning. They're working really hard, like teaching in 2024, it's a really hard job. Like, it's a really, really hard gig.So, you know, giving as much as you can to just build that relationship first. So when the time comes and you might have to have this difficult conversation, you already have a relationship built. And so it's a little bit different. But then if you do have to have this conversation, like you do have to share something that's a little tough with the teacher, you know, really focus in on actions and not feelings.And what I mean by that is what are the actionable steps that you're seeking, instead of how you feel about this. And so how you verbalize that might be, I notice that my son is coming home and he's not feeling like he can finish the work. Or he's not understanding how to do the work. Or he said that he's getting in trouble for not staying in his seat."This makes me upset" is not the right way to go about it. It's "I notice these things" — give a very specific notice. "Can we try X, Y, and Z? How can I support you in this? I'm going to try this at home. Can you try this at school?" Like so, really thinking about a very specific action step and inviting the teacher to provide their own observation, while also providing a couple of suggestions that you have so that both of you can kind of work together.And I think that really — it changes the trajectory of the conversation. Because now you're not being accusatory, you're more being inviting. How can we invite this collaboration together? And that's what we want, right? Like we're trying to work together.It's like a three-legged stool, right? You have the teacher, the student, the family. If one of those legs is uneven or imbalanced, the whole chair has fallen down. All right, so we all got to be on the same page together. And so this kind of invites them in, as opposed to accusing them of wrong.Rachel: So we know teachers have tough jobs and especially at big schools where they may be teaching — our estimate was 150 students a day. But maybe it's higher based on some of the numbers you've mentioned.Julian: Yeah, definitely is.Rachel: So, is it unreasonable to expect them to be able to keep track of students' different accommodations? And if so, what can parents do to support the teacher, again, without seeming like they're telling them what to do? But like that is just that's so much to have to keep track of.Julian: Yeah. I mean, it's not unreasonable, because every one of those 150 children are supposed to get what they deserve, right? And so, you know, it's difficult. Yes, definitely. But at the same time, you know, we have to be selfish about our kids, right? And so I like that you're asking how can the parents support. I think the one thing I hear a lot from teachers is, you know, just clarifying exactly what you're looking for, right? Like simplifying. Like, sometimes, especially for students who have IEPs — an IEP is a really large document, right? It sometimes can be 25, 30, 40 pages long. And so if you have 35 kids on a caseload across your day, it is really tough to keep all of that in your head.If you're asking the case manager to work together and to kind of spotlight at a glance: What are the highlights of this that I really want to hone in on? Right? If I know that my child, he gets off the wall at 1:00, like, I know that like. Beyond everything else, I know just that 1:00 time hits, he's off the wall. I'm going to really just ask the teacher, can you to really, like, do one specific thing? Let's just focus on this one thing.And nine times out of 10, a teacher's just really going to appreciate having that laser focus on this one bite-sized chunk of accommodation that they know they can accomplish. That's going to help a lot. And then also, positive feedback. Right?And I say that because, again, we've mentioned a bunch of times, like teaching is really hard right now. And it goes such a long way to write a quick note, or send an email, or send a text or shout out. Whatever way you can just to recognize the hard work that that teacher's putting in with your child. Right? And so those little things like that really — we all want a little bit of a boost, right, from doing the work that we do.So I think families can really just share some of that positive energy sometimes. That can go a long way. But having that very specific ask is going to be really helpful. Because there's so much, like you said, there's so many things to manage that it gets hard to figure out sometimes.Gretchen: I think that's a really helpful tip. I remember working with my co-teacher, who was a special education teacher. She would hand me the IEPs and have a front sheet she would make with like highlighted. Like out of all the things in here, these are like your three main points. And it was super helpful.Julian: And honestly like for middle and high school students and even younger kids, I would also say, you know, review it with your children. Like review the IEP documentation with your kids so that they know, like, what should be happening in the classroom. Right?Like if they're in a classroom and they're not getting the accommodation that they should be, it doesn't hurt for them to raise their hand and speak up and say, hey, I'm supposed to have preferential seating. Or hey, can you make sure that the words are a little bit bigger on the test? Right? So making sure that you prep your child to go into a classroom and advocate for themselves, that's also a really helpful tip. Because then that saves the teacher time from remembering all of it themselves.Gretchen: Are there good resources out there? So, if there's a teacher listening to this, not a parent, what are some resources out there that teachers can use, besides Understood of course, for help with, you know, learning how to support all their students, including students who learn and think differently.Julian: You know, you remember those, those like Hair Club for Men commercials. Like, I'm not only the founder, but I'm also a client. So, that's how I feel about Understood. Like, I don't only work for them, I also see I'm a client.Rachel: True.Julian: Honestly, like, I can't tell you how much I use Understood's material. Like in my own work, like I have, you know, we have 100-something educators in my school. And we constantly share articles and resources and links from Understood with families. I pull up your podcasts, or sometimes my podcasts, in an IEP meeting. Like, hey, check this out. We talked about this. Check it out. So Understood is really like the preeminent resource that I know I use a lot. The Wunder app is also a great resource. I know a lot of families use that just to get like that in-the-moment information.Gretchen: And that's Understood app.Julian: Yes. Understood's app, Wunder. Yep. But I'm gonna be honest with the, you know, word of mouth is, is the biggest thing. Like finding other people that have children that have gone through things similar to what we're going through. And specifically teachers, finding other educators in your district, or asking your principal or asking your administrators, like, can you connect me with other schools or connect me with other teachers? That really goes a long way to finding the information you need.Gretchen: Yeah. It's so true.Rachel: Yeah. Those are great resources and suggestions.Gretchen: And we love that you're the representative for, you know, Understood. Like Hair Club for Men. It's amazing, Julian, this has been such a great conversation.Rachel: Yeah. Thank you so much.Julian: No, I appreciate it. You guys are great. I love your show.Rachel: Thank you. For more excellent advice and insight from Julian, be sure to check out his podcast, "The Opportunity Gap."Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out our show notes. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin with help from Cody Nelson. Ilana Millner is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being "In It" with us.
Download: Back-to-school introduction letters
How can you help your child get the school year off to a good start? Giving an introduction letter to the teacher is a great option. A back-to-school letter helps the teacher get to know your child’s strengths and what your child needs help with. These letters are set up in a way so kids can fill them out on their own (or with a little help from you). There’s one for older kids and one for younger kids. You can use the one for older kids as a guide to write a more traditional letter, if you and your child prefer.
The Opportunity GapHow to get kids to talk about school
Some kids don’t like to share information about their school day. Get tips on how to get them to open up and share. These tips and conversation starters can help your child to open up.Some kids love talking about school. But some don’t — especially when something is upsetting them, like bullying or struggling with a specific subject. If your child is a bit quiet about how things are going in school, there are ways to encourage them to open up more. In this episode, host Julian Saavedra explains: Ways to ask kids open-ended questionsHow to be vulnerable with kidsAnd why knowing when to stop asking questions can make all the differenceRelated resourcesHow to get your child to talk about schoolGet tips on how to respond when your child is frustrated about schoolEpisode transcriptJulian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. And there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. On today's show, we're talking about ways to get your child to open up and talk about school. I'm a proud dad of two. I love my kids, and I love talking to them, whether it be at dinnertime, bedtime. Scratch that, any time of the day. It's really important to my wife and I, and I really like to know how are they feeling, what's going on in their head, how their day was just, what's going on with their life in general. A lot of times kids deal with so many different things on a daily basis, and especially at school, and so we want to know what's going on with it. When it comes to school, some kids love talking about it, but sometimes they don't want to say anything. It is straight crickets, especially if something is upsetting them, if they're dealing with bullying, if they're struggling in a specific subject matter. Sometimes it just goes quiet. The way that you can ask kids questions can really be the ultimate game changer. It can encourage them to talk more. And I want to share some tips that I found really helpful in the Saavedra household. First tip: Ask open-ended questions. Ask open-ended questions. This is like a teacher tip, a life tip, a conversation tip, and especially a parenting tip. If you ask a question that can be answered with one word — those yes or no questions — that's what you're going to get, a one-word answer. I know a lot of parents, the first question they say is, "Did you have a good day?" Listeners, I'm sure you've heard yourself say that to a child before. And I'm asking to tell you, don't do that. Don't qualify it. Because if you say, "Did you have a good day?" Then the child's going to feel like they need to respond by saying, "Yes, day was good." What if it wasn't good? Then what are they going to do? They're going to have to make something up. And so, keeping an open-ended and saying, "How is your day?," or "Tell me about your day." Or "Tell me a story about your day," or "Share some words that explain how your day was." And it leaves it open so that they can fill in the blanks with whatever they'd like. It doesn't qualify it, and it guarantees you're not getting a one-word answer. So, tip number one: Ask open-ended questions. Tip number two: Start with an observation. Kids often have such a hard time answering questions that kind of just seem to come out of the blue. A lot of times they'll hear all these different adults coming at them with questions, and they might think, "Where did this come from?" If you make an observation, it will give the child something to relate to. For example, you might mention something like, "Hey, I noticed that you have more kids in your class this year. What's that like for you?" Or "Wow, your bookbag is pretty heavy today. You have some extra stuff you got to do tonight?" Or "I noticed that a lot of the kids were really excited in the bus line. Tell me about that." There's so many different things that you can use to reference so that it really helps your child focus. And especially for our children with ADHD or learning and thinking differences, making sure that you give a very specific example — almost like a sentence starter — it helps them focus their energy and focus what they want to say into a very specific story. So, tip number two: Start with an observation. Tip number three: Be vulnerable too. That means you, too. When somebody tells you about themselves, it's natural to want to do that in return. Share something with your child and see what you get back. For example, if you're noticing that your child is having a lot of trouble with math and you can relate to that, share that. My son Abraham is in fourth grade right now, and I don't know about y'all, but fourth-grade math is a whole thing that is way different than it was when your host was in fourth grade. And I know a lot of parents out there are trying to learn math as we go, just like I am. And I'm an educator, and I still sometimes look at the homework or the assignments he's getting and I don't know what's going on. I have to ask him to explain it to me. And so, sometimes I'll sit with him and explain "Listen, Dad really struggles with understanding math. I barely made it through Algebra 1 in high school. And even when I went to college, I struggled to get through it. I had to do tutoring, I had to find friends to help me. It's something that I still get really worried about. And I have to evaluate teachers, so I go into math classes, and sometimes I even struggle to know what's going on. So, I have to teach myself and practice a whole bunch to figure it out. So, Abraham, can you help Dad with your math? Because I want to make sure that I'm helping you out. You can help me out. And that little trick of letting your child teach you what's happening, or their child seeing that you don't know everything. It can make all the difference. I'm going to tell you right now, Abraham absolutely loves when he gets the chance to tell Dad "This is how you do long division." "No, Dad, this is the remainder," and we work at it together. So, a lot of times when you have a personal story or a personal struggle with something that's similar to what your child is dealing with — especially when it comes to content — then that's a great way to be vulnerable. Sometimes you can also share experiences about your interactions with other kids. I know that a lot of kids, especially as they get older, there's some issues that happen between bullying or tough relationships with other kids in school. That's a great chance for you to be vulnerable too and share and be real. "Maybe I didn't have the greatest experience when I was in seventh grade either. Let me tell you what it was like for me."Now, I will say, this is not the chance for you to start lecturing your child. This is not the chance for you to say, "When I was your age, I did blah blah blah" because then it just becomes Charlie Brown "Wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah." Keep it short. Keep it sweet. Keep it focused, but allow your child to do the talking. The goal is for them to open up. It's not a therapy session for you. It's a chance for your child to open up about themselves. So, tip number three: Be vulnerable too. Tip number four: Avoid negative questions. Avoid negative questions. Now, what does that mean? Asking in a positive way lets your child express concerns. So, for example, you may mention "I heard that you sat with new people at lunch today. What did you talk about?" Not "Why did your seat get moved at lunch?" Or all the things that start with questions about why something isn't happening. Focus on what is happening. Asking questions that have a positive frame allows your child to fill in the blanks. Just like I was saying earlier, really thinking about the question you're asking to allow for them to fill in the blanks is the goal. Thinking about sentence starters — which we're going to get to in a moment — that can really help your child open up is the goal for this. Tip number five: And this might be the most important tip, and probably the hardest one for those of us that are parents, and especially those of us that are educators and love to hear ourselves talk, especially ones that are podcast hosts. Know when to call it quits. Tip number five: Know when to call it quits. It's really important to know when to stop asking questions and leave it for another time. That is incredibly important. That is key. If your kids don't want to talk about something right away, that's OK. They can always come back to you. Talk when they're ready. Doesn't have to be on your time. I'm sure all of us experienced times where we just don't feel like saying anything. We just want a break. We just went through an eight-hour day. We sat through classrooms. We had a whole bunch of stuff going on. We get in the car, we get off the bus, and maybe we just went five minutes to get our mind right. All we're thinking about is a snack, seeing our pets, and taking a breather. At least that's what my kids want to do. So, I try to keep it really short. I'm fortunate where I rush out of my own school, I go and pick my kids up. They hop in the back of the car. I have some music on in the background, usually like a different song every day. I ask them "Tell me about your day. Tell me something that was fun. Tell me something that is in concern." And that's it. It's three questions and we keep it moving. And if they don't feel like talking, they just say, "Dad, can we cut it for right now?" "Cool. No worries. Just listen to some music instead."And sure enough — maybe an hour later when we're doing homework or doing our chores or whatever — they might come over and start telling me some stuff, or they might go and whisper it to Mom because she is usually the one that they go to for everything. So, tip number five, the most important tip, know when to call it quits. All right, let's move on to some conversation starters. You know, for all of those that are trying to figure out like, what are some specific things that we can use? Now that I've given some tips on what to do and what not to do, I want to share some of these conversation starters or other examples of how to say things differently to get your child to open up. I have three really good ones. First, instead of asking, "Was school fun today?" Try, "What was the best thing you did today?" That's a great one, especially for those of us that have children with learning and thinking differences. This is a great way to focus their conversation on a specific topic. Here's a second conversation starter. Instead of asking, "Were the kids in your class friendly?" Try, "Who did you enjoy talking to the most? Who did you enjoy talking to the most?" And again, this gives a very specific person, and that's great information to get. Now you know, if the same child and the same child's name keeps coming up, well, maybe that's somebody that you need to set up a playdate for. Or maybe you need to dig deeper to figure out how can we connect my child with this kid? Conversation starter number three. Instead of asking, "Was your teacher nice?" Try this one. "What was the most interesting thing your teacher said today? So, let's run those back just so that we're really, really clear on these three great conversation starters. First one, "What was the best thing you did today?" Second, "Who did you like talking to the most?" Third, "What was the most interesting thing your teacher said today?" If you use all three of those, I guarantee your children are going to be speaking a lot more. Phrasing questions like this invites your kids to talk. And again, like we said earlier, sometimes kids — like adults, like me, like you, like everybody listening — we just don't feel like talking. Guess what? That's OK. It's all right. So, don't expect every single question to result in this long, detailed answer. The goal is really to have as many small conversations over time with your child. You're setting the foundation for how you all are going to interact forever. That's a really heavy lift. But remember, you have a lifetime and so you don't want to rush it. Take your time and focus on what's important for them. Try some of the conversation starters. Try some of the tips. See what happens. So before we go, I have some really wonderful resources from Understood to help share with you. First, Understood's article "How to get your child to talk about school." Also, get tips on "How to respond when your child is frustrated about school." Until next time listeners, I will talk to you soon. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks, edited by Cin Pim. Ilana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show for the Understood Podcast Network. Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Download: Back-to-school update for families to give to teachers
When kids are going back to school, it’s an important time for families and teachers to connect. By working together, you and your child’s teacher can get a better understanding of your child.Your child’s teacher will want to know important information about the last school year. Was school stressful for your child? Did your child make friends? What helped your child learn? Use this one-page download to update the teacher on how your child is doing. You can fill it out on your computer or phone. Or you can print it out and fill it in by hand. Ready to dig deeper? Learn how and why to partner with your child’s teacher.
In ItAdulting and executive function skills: How to help your child thrive after high school
Sending kids off to the adult world can feel both scary and exciting. How can families best support their kids who learn and think differently? Sending kids off to the adult world can feel both scary and exciting. How can families best support their kids who learn and think differently? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with Dr. Karen Wilson, a clinical neuropsychologist who works with a lot of college students. She shares some of the common challenges kids face in the real world — many related to trouble with executive function. Get her expert advice on how families can help their kids manage the demands of adulting. Then, the hosts hear from a parent who’s “in it” when it comes to helping kids become adults. Tune in to get tips from Danielle Janson, a mom of twins with ADHD who are in their first year of college. Related resources Life after high school: Tips to get your child readyExecutive function challenges and learning: 6 ways to help your child after high schoolEveryday challenges for people who struggle with executive functionEpisode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: …the ups and downs...Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer, and editor raising two kids with ADHD. A few episodes back, we heard from high school counselor Jennifer Correnti about how to prepare our kids to take the big leap from secondary school to whatever comes next.Gretchen: Today, we're gathering insights on how things look from the other side of that big leap. Mostly, we'll be focusing on the transition to college, but we'll be talking about other paths, too.Rachel: Later, we'll hear from Danielle Janson, a mom in Virginia whose twins, Jake and Sara, are just finishing up their first year of college. Both of them have learning and thinking differences that made this transition a little daunting.Gretchen: But first, we're talking to Dr. Karen Wilson. Karen is a clinical neuropsychologist in Los Angeles.Rachel: She's also a professor at UCLA and supervises assessment of children and adults with learning, thinking, and social emotional difficulties. And in that capacity, she works with a lot of college students.Gretchen: We were so delighted to have her share her expertise with us. Dr. Wilson, thank you so much for being with us on "In It."Dr. Karen Wilson: Thank you so much for having me.Rachel: Welcome. So, what are some of the most common struggles that you hear about from students at the beginning of their college career?Dr. Karen Wilson: Yeah, I think the kinds of challenges that I am hearing from young people, but oftentimes it's coming from their parents, the difficulties are frequently related to problems with executive functioning.I can think of one client of mine who called her parents very upset because she was falling behind in all of her coursework, and she was really fearful of failing her first semester in college. And the parent in turn reached out to me, and as it turns out, when we kind of looked at what was happening, this young woman was having trouble managing the multiple demands of college life. And what that parent realized was that she had actually been functioning as her daughter's frontal lobe all her life.So, if you think about during this transition to college, this young person who has had her mother wake her up in the morning, help her, you know, navigate to school, has kind of checked in with her daughter. Do you have everything in your backpack? Did you turn in that assignment? All of that feedback and that encouragement was now removed when her daughter was in college and the mother didn't even realize that she had been providing all of this support and scaffolding. Now she has to do her own laundry. She has to manage her own finances, manage her social life, get to places on her own.And so, navigating all of those added things was really creating a problem for this young woman. She had kind of developed the skills to address her learning and thinking differences, but didn't have to kind of manage more in real life, if that makes sense.Gretchen: Oh yeah, that does make sense.Rachel: It does make sense.Gretchen: Makes me think, well, I don't have one high schooler, but I think about this, and I think about, am I doing too much of the executive function stuff for them? And I feel like it might be this, just that kids are just so overwhelmed at school with so many things that sometimes I personally feel like, well, I better do that because they've got all these other things on their plate. How in the world are they possibly going to take care of their basic needs? I better do that for them.Dr. Karen Wilson: I see exactly what you're saying, and I think a lot of these families who have young people who've had these learning and thinking differences for some time, they have been there all along to ensure that their child is getting the support that they need to thrive and reach their full potential.But there is a time when you have to kind of back off. I mean, you don't back off completely all at once in ninth grade, but you do so a little bit at a time. And what that does is it gives young people the opportunity to see that there are some things they can handle on their own.Rachel: That's good to know.Gretchen: Yeah.Dr. Karen Wilson: One of the skills that's really important for students to learn early on are those self-advocacy skills. You know, I've worked with another student who, you know, evaluated when he was in second grade, in fourth grade. And then in high school, I remember getting a call to my office and it was from the student —all along the mother had been making the appointments — and it was from the student who said, "Hi, do you remember me? You evaluated me when I was in sixth grade. I'm now going to be going to this university and I need to get updated testing. I need it by this date. And this is the person you need to send it to."And those are the calls that I love to get. This student was ready for the transition and the parents had said, you know, "You're an adult now. You need to call Dr. Wilson and make your appointment." And I think that taking some of those responsibilities and also having the self-advocacy skills to be able to say, "This is my profile, this is what I need in order to show up as my best self" is really powerful.Gretchen: And can I just say that the skill of making a phone call, I feel like that's so underrated, right?Dr. Karen Wilson: I absolutely agree with you because some students don't know what to say or "What do I say when I get on the phone?" That is another, you know, skill that students have to learn. I mean, you have to call the Learning Disabilities Office and say, you know, "I have a test on Monday. I need accommodations. What paperwork do I need to bring to my professor?" Because that office is not going to send the paperwork automatically to your professor. That student has to ask for what it is that they need.Gretchen: Yeah. And they're not going to send a text message.Dr. Karen Wilson: They will not.Gretchen: They've got to make an old-fashioned phone call and know how to do that.Dr. Karen Wilson: Absolutely.Rachel: So, if a student is struggling academically, who should they turn to first? Is this, should it start out as a conversation that they have with their professor before they kind of take it to another space on campus? Or should they go to support services immediately?Dr. Karen Wilson: It depends on the class, and it also depends on why they're struggling. You know, are they starting only because they don't understand the material or are they struggling because they've got too many classes and they're just overwhelmed with the sheer amount of work that they need to do?You know, if it's the content that they're not quite grasping, definitely start with the professor, go to the office hours, and get some clarity on what it is that they you don't understand. But if it's, you know, "This is too much. I've got five classes, I can't keep on top of all of the expectations, it feels overwhelming," then by all means, go to the student services office and talk about maybe reducing your course load.Gretchen: Yeah. And you know, that again, brings up another life skill that I keep thinking about. Talking one on one with a professor, like I remember as a student myself the first time going to office hours thinking, "What is this? " And I was scared. So, I mean, are there ways to prep students to be able to do that?Dr. Karen Wilson: I think you have to know what you want to ask and what it is you're struggling with. And if you write it down, that is often helpful. What is it you don't understand? Bring your notebook. Bring your textbook. If you're having trouble, you know, taking notes, bring your notes and show what you've been doing just so you're prepared for that conversation.Gretchen: Yeah, I guess preparation is key.Dr. Karen Wilson: Yes.Gretchen: And I feel like maybe having your kid practice that a little bit at the high school level, right? Like, get a little practice, going to your teacher and having those lists and talking about some things that you need to cover.Dr. Karen Wilson: Practice is so key. I'm so glad you said that because high school is a great place for students to get that practice in developing those skills. And for them to keep in mind that there's oftentimes, and there will be, a generational gap between the student and the professor.So, what has to work for communication with your peers is not going to work with a professor. They've spent so much time, this generation, communicating using technology, and they haven't had the opportunity to interact in real life with another person, advocate for their needs, you know, express what it is that they know, what they're struggling with. And that is a skill that they will have to practice before they make that transition because your professors are not going to be responding to a DM.Rachel: So, how does medication fit into this picture? You know, of all of what we're talking about, are there special challenges for students in terms of staying on top of their meds now that they're out on their own? Tell us a little bit about that.Dr. Karen Wilson: It can be a challenge. And again, it depends on the young person and how much support they've been receiving at home, right? If you have a parent who's put your medication beside your breakfast every morning, that's going to be a very different and more challenging situation to manage all of that on your own versus the student who's already been managing and been responsible for taking their own medication through high school. And if you have been reminded by a parent, now's the time to set up reminders for yourself, whether that be an app or on your phone, some strategy that will help you remember now.The other thing is when you need a refill, when you run out of medication, when you're getting close to the end of your prescription, you've got two pills left in the bottle. Can that be a cue for you to request your own medication refill? And so, you know, a parent who might be listening can practice that with their child and say, you know, "For the next two months, you're going to manage your own medication." Obviously, they're going to oversee it and make sure things are getting done. But you'll be able to see where there are gaps. And, you know, if you see the empty bottle that's been sitting there for two days and your child hasn't said, you know, "I need a refill," then you know where the support is going to be needed moving forward.Gretchen: What are some things that parents, or maybe the young adults going, should maybe be more concerned about than they actually are at the time?Dr. Karen Wilson: Yes. You know, emerging adulthood, regardless of whether you have learning and thinking differences, is a vulnerable time from a social and emotional point.Gretchen: Oh, yeah.Dr. Karen Wilson: And what I mean by that is that if students are going to develop anxiety or depression, this is a critical time when oftentimes that does begin to manifest for the first time. And so, making sure that a student has the social and emotional support as they're making this transition is really important.And so, even before they go off, you know, that young person can be excited about making the transition, having that conversation, saying, you know, "I know you're really excited, but sometimes, you know, students who are making this transition can feel lonely, can get depressed, can get really anxious. If you start to feel those things, I want you to reach out to me so that we can make sure you get the support that you need."Gretchen: Well, let's talk a little bit about something different. We've been talking a lot about the challenges for kids who go to college. But what about those who take a different path, whether it's they go to work or they take a gap year or the military or something else? What are you hearing from those kids or parents about things they might be struggling with?Dr. Karen Wilson: I think they're struggling with a lot of the same things, but just in different ways. They may not have the college demands of managing classes, but if they've decided to get a job right out of high school, they also need to be at work on time. They have to finish their responsibilities, they have to notify individuals if they're not going to be there.They also are also facing the same vulnerable time where there are higher rates of depression, higher rates of anxiety. And they're, we already know that there's kind of this loneliness epidemic for all young people. And so, if you've got friends who you were really close to when you were in high school and now, they're off attending college, you know, across the country, then that can increase the loneliness that an individual might be experiencing. And loneliness, we know, puts you at greater risk for depression. And so that can also be something to keep an eye on.Gretchen: And I imagine if kids are struggling with executive function things like getting to work on time, right? Or getting a task done on time at work. That's a little different than if you turn in a paper late and you get a bad grade. The repercussions could be like you don't have a job anymore or like, it affects other people in the workplace. And so that, I imagine that might be tough to handle.Dr. Karen Wilson: Absolutely. And then obviously, that has an impact on self-concept, how you feel about yourself. "Can I do this? Can I get another job? Can I get any job if I can't handle this one?" And so, there can be a lot of self-talk that happens as a result of those challenges.But it's also an opportunity to, again, develop and practice those skills in a work environment, right? And may not be your career job right out of high school, but you can figure out what you're strong at, what your weaknesses are, and what kind of job you do not want in your future.Rachel: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. First, jobs are sometimes really good for that. So, we've talked a lot about some of the things that can trip kids up when they're embarking on this new phase of life. What can you tell us about the kids who have really blossomed? Can you think of an example and tell us what they're getting right?Dr. Karen Wilson: I have a lot of examples, and I would say that in general, the students who have those great outcomes and thrive in a college environment or thrive in their first job outside of high school are those that understand their learning and thinking differences, can self-advocate for what it is that they need, and who have the social and emotional support as they make that transition.So, they have a good group of friends that they can check in with. They know that they have the support of an adult in their life, whether that's a parent, a mentor for students who are transitioning to college, you know, many of them who've gone on to graduate and again, thrive in life are those that can in that first year continue to have a tutor or continue to work with an executive functioning coach or an educational therapist as they made that transition to kind of help them navigate that transition period.And then the other thing is really those students have really thrived, as are those students who've really been able to kind of see what it is that they need and to have put in place in their living environment to support them and help them succeed.One of those is making sure that you're getting enough sleep because, you know, college we talked about all of the distractions and consistent sleep is essential and even more important for students with thinking and learning differences so that they can. Thus, their attention system, their executive functioning system. We know that students who don't get enough sleep are at greater risk for emotional struggles and social difficulties. So, those students who have said, you know, "I need this amount of sleep, I know what you're doing, but I have a class at 8 a.m. I need to get some sleep."So, those students who again, can self-advocate with their roommates about what it is that they need to do exceedingly well. And then also those students who are, who get involved in extracurricular activities, you know, not overscheduled, but get involved with clubs and feel a sense of belonging with their university do extremely well. All of those things in place are setting you up for success.Rachel: Yeah, and I think a lot of that can totally apply, you know, in other settings as well. So, if you are taking a gap year or get a job right out of school, but you want to maybe like volunteer at an animal shelter or get involved with a food co-op or there's like all these different ways to find that sense of belonging. So, I think those are great ideas and hopefully recipes for success. Well, is there anything we didn't cover that you want to mention, Karen?Dr. Karen Wilson: You know, one thing I guess I would say, I mean, we've covered so much and I think one of the things I would say is that, you know, students who have a learning and thinking differences are incredibly resilient. And we can give them the opportunity to see that they have all of the innate skills that they need in order to achieve what it is that they want to achieve. Many will continue to need additional parental and societal support, but once they have that and we can pull back a little, they can really soar.Gretchen: Well, thank you for being on the show with us today.Rachel: Thank you so much. It was so great to speak with you.Dr. Karen Wilson: Oh good. I hope it was helpful.Rachel: Very helpful.Gretchen: Very helpful. Dr. Wilson shared so much good advice.Rachel: She did. I have to be honest, though, I know it's still a few years off, but I have such a hard time imagining my kids managing all the things in college, which is why I was so grateful when a good friend of mine, Danielle Janson, agreed to talk to us about what it's been like for her.Gretchen: This year, Danielle sent not one but two kids off to college.Rachel: Yep, they're twins. Their names are Jake and Sarah. And here's how Danielle describes them in a nutshell.Danielle: They are about to complete their freshman year of college. They go to two separate colleges, both very different kids. My daughter has always been a theater kid singing, dancing, all that. And my son is a total sports kid. Both have diagnoses of ADHD along with anxiety, and my daughter also deals with some depression.Gretchen: We asked Danielle if she remembers what she was the most worried about before they left for school.Danielle: Dealing with professors and so many different personalities and new people. That was a fear. Definitely with my daughter's depression and anxiety, sending her away to college. Like does she have a support system up there and how are we going to have all those things in place for her?Rachel: Those were some of her big-picture concerns. And then there were the worries about how Jake and Sara would handle day-to-day life.Danielle: You know, you always fear medications. Are they going to take them? Are they going to take them on time? Are they going to remember to go get the refills? Also waking up in the morning.Gretchen: Some of these challenges were things they could work on before school started. And they did. Both kids took on the responsibility of managing their meds for a few months before they left.Rachel: And they both reached out to their universities to determine what accommodations they would be entitled to once they got there.Gretchen: Once the school year started, there were a few bumps in the road. Both kids had to figure out how to manage anxiety when faced with new experiences like socializing in a big crowd or making presentations in front of a large class. But they knew to ask for help and they got through it.Rachel: As for academics, they both proved capable of advocating for themselves when they needed to. Though for Jake, at first, it took some parental nudging.Danielle: For example, he had a class. He was taking music and it was a tough class and he just really "Jake just goes talk to the professor." So, he did, and the professor sat down with him is like, "Let me see how you're studying, and let me see how you're taking notes." And the professor pointed out like, "Hey, Jake, all this information is on the slide. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Add notes that are what I'm lecturing about that's not on the slide."Gretchen: Sarah also showed herself to be an excellent self-advocate.Danielle: For example, she had a professor this semester who's kind of old school and first day of class, he said, "Hey, no computers, no iPads, no phones, nothing. I want to see none of it." So, Sara just simply met with him after class and said, "Hey, I have accommodations, I need to use an iPad to take notes." And he was like, "Great, thank you so much for telling me you have permission to use it."Rachel: Danielle's got a lot of pro tips after her kids first year of college. Jake learned a little late, unfortunately, that at his school, kids with learning and thinking differences are entitled to early registration so they can get into classes that best meet their accommodations. Apparently, this privilege is common at other schools, too.Gretchen: Also common, a free note-taking service for students who have a hard time listening and taking notes at the same time. The note-takers are fellow students, they never know who they're taking notes for, and they get paid to do the work. So, it's a win-win.Rachel: You know, Gretchen, with all these preparation strategies, sometimes it's hard to remember the big picture, like why we're sending our kids off to fend for themselves in college or wherever they choose to go. I asked Danielle about that, and I think she offers some really good perspective. What are you hoping they get out of this experience?Danielle: Well, I think we're just hoping that they learn how to be comfortable in their own skin and to just go to the beat of their own drum and know that they can do things in their own time and at their own pace. You know, to develop like a sense of self-worth and a professional life and, you know, just see all the things that they have within them to offer to this world, you know? And mine and my husband's hope for them is just as we've always said, like "We just want productive members of society. That's all we ask for."Gretchen: Yeah, that seems like a pretty healthy outlook. Well, Danielle, you've given us such good advice for families getting ready to send their kids off to college. Thank you so much for all of it.Rachel: Thank you so much. This was really great.Danielle: Thank you for having me.Gretchen: Danielle gave us so much great information. One other tip she gave was about ADHD medication, which we know can be a hot commodity on campus where some kids may be using it recreationally.Rachel: Yeah, I thought this was a really good tip. So, what she told us was that she and her husband actually sent both kids to school with a safe to keep their medications locked up and just keep them safe.Gretchen: That is such a great tip. And in fact, that makes me think that our listeners probably have some great tips. So, if you're someone who's recently pushed your kid out of the nest, whether to college or job or whatnot, we'd love to hear from you. If you've got some great tips to share, please feel free to email us at init@understood.org.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Eric co-wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.
5 great back-to-school books for kids in grades 1–4
It’s not just kindergartners who worry about the start of school. Older grade-schoolers may also have concerns about how things will go this year. These five back-to-school books picked by founding partner Reading Rockets can help kids feel ready.Ruby Lu, Empress of EverythingBy: Lenore LookIllustrated by: Anne WilsdorfAge Level: 6–9Reading Level: Independent ReaderRuby Lu is an exuberant second grader who takes seriously her responsibility to help her cousin transition from China to his new school in America. Both kids end up in summer school, where Ruby has trouble with a long book.Danitra Brown, Class ClownBy: Nikki GrimesIllustrated by: E. B. Lewis Age Level: 6–9Reading Level: Independent ReaderZuri and Danitra are best friends, but they have very different responses to school — from first-day jitters all the way to the halfway mark of the school year. Danitra Brown, Class Clown features poems and pretty watercolors, which help to chronicle the girls’ experiences and concerns.Susan LaughsBy: Jeanne WillisIllustrated by: Tony RossAge Level: 6–9Reading Level: Beginning ReaderIn Susan Laughs, rhyming text and colored-pencil illustrations tell the story of Susan’s everyday life. She behaves and participates in activities just like the other kids. But she does it using a wheelchair — a fact that isn’t revealed until the final spread.Panda Math: Learning About Subtraction From Hua Mei & Mei ShengBy: Ann Whitehead NagdaAge Level: 6–9Reading Level: Independent ReaderIn 2003, panda Hua Mei was born at the San Diego Zoo. In Panda Math, Hua Mei’s growth is shown through basic addition and subtraction while life with her parents at the zoo is presented on opposite pages. Clear photographs and straightforward text give a fascinating portrait of these engaging animals while introducing math functions.The Best Seat in Second GradeBy: Katharine KenahIllustrated by: Abby Carter Age Level: 6–9Reading Level: Independent ReaderWhen not picked as pet helper, second grader Sam decides to take the class hamster on their field trip. Unfortunately, the hamster (named George Washington) gets mixed up with other hamsters at the science museum. Sam ends up saving the day — or at least the hamster. In The Best Seat in Second Grade, children can identify with Sam’s behavior and emotions while enjoying this easy-to-read school story.
The Opportunity GapTeacher shortages, special education, and kids of color
Schools are facing a huge shortage of special education teachers. What’s the impact on special education students and kids of color? Schools around the country are facing a huge shortage of special education teachers and other staff. How is the teacher shortage impacting kids with disabilities or learning and thinking differences? What about kids who are marginalized? Co-host Marissa Wallace starts the episode with a story about how her husband, a Black man, was offered a special education teaching job even though he’s in the field of finance. This kicks off a discussion with co-host Julian Saavedra about why there’s a teacher shortage — and its impact. Julian and Marissa share their experiences as parents and teachers, and they react to news stories from around the country. They also share tips for families on what to do when schools say they can’t deliver services because of staff shortages.Related resources10 smart responses when a school cuts or denies services7 tips to improve your relationship with your child’s teacherPodcast: Are IEPs different in wealthy schools?Episode transcriptJulian: Welcome to "The Opportunity Gap," a podcast for families of kids of color who learn and think differently. We explore issues of privilege, race, and identity. And our goal is to help you advocate for your child. I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: And I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian and I worked together for years as teachers in a public charter school in Philadelphia, where we saw opportunity gaps firsthand.Julian: And we're both parents of kids of color. So this is personal to us.Welcome back to "The Opportunity Gap." I'm here with my co-host, Marissa, and our producer, Andrew. Marissa, how are you?Marissa: I'm good, Julian, you know, but I do have a crazy story to tell you. This is a wild story. So today, while I was working with one of my students, I, like, overhear this conversation. Romario is on the phone. Romario is my husband. And, um, so he's on the phone, having this conversation, sounds all jazzed. He's saying, you know, "Oh, well, if I had a choice, like, I'd either choose Washington, DC, or New York City." And I'm like, what is this? It sounded kind of job-related. So he gets off the phone. He says, "Listen, I just got this, like, great offer." And I'm like, oh, tell me more.Now, mind you, my husband is in school for finance. He is, you know, someone who prior to finance was into engineering. So that's, like, his area of expertise. So he was like, "Yeah, this company called, and they wanted to know if I would be interested in taking a special education teaching position and I could relocate." Right? "And they'd give me a sign-on bonus."And I'm like, oh, we're that desperate? We are that desperate in the United States right now, that we are just looking at people's LinkedIn and being like, "Oh, hey, even though nothing on your LinkedIn page screams educator, you're not certified, but let me call you and offer you the red carpet because that is how much we are in need of teachers." Isn't that wild? And he was ready to go for it.Julian: No, no shade to my brother, my good brother Romario, no shade to him, but he's not qualified to be a special education teacher at all.Marissa: Not at all. Even maybe, like, a math teacher, science, but, like, they went right in for a special education teacher.Julian: I'm just floored that that came out of nowhere.Marissa: Now I'm, like, curious. I'm like, what is on his LinkedIn site? Like, I know he has a picture, so I'm like, are they, like, profiling? They're like, "Oh, a Black male, let me call this guy and offer him a job." Or was there something in, like, what was it that made this company think that they were going to get him to be a special education teacher, of all things?Julian: So, Marissa, that is actually a really good introduction into what we're talking about today, specifically how the teacher shortage is impacting the entire nation.Marissa: Absolutely.Julian: Andrew did some research regarding the teacher shortage. Andrew, do you want to tell us a little bit about what your findings were?Andrew: Yeah, here's a really interesting article from ABC News. This is from the start of the 2021–2022 school year. The Massachusetts governor deployed the National Guard to be bus drivers to take kids to school.Julian: What?!Andrew: Here's another article, from the "New York Times." Title is "Substitute Teachers Never Got Much Respect, but Now They Are in Demand." So because of these staff shortages, some schools are canceling classes. Others are basically hiring whatever substitute teachers they can find. In the article, so I'm looking at it now, they're talking about Oregon, which passed some law or executive order basically saying that you could bypass the regular certification to become a substitute teacher.Julian: I don't know if y'all are familiar with the phrase "glow up," but talk about a glow up for our substitutes. They went from the bottom to now they are highly in demand.Marissa: The hard part, though, is there's not enough of them though.Julian: Is there ever enough?Marissa: Right. And that's what I'm saying. They've had such a tough time. I know, like, currently there's, um, what's happening in my son's school is that they're actually to the point where their substitute shortage is real too. So what goes on is when a teacher's out, kids get dispersed throughout the school. So a good friend of mine whose daughter is also there, her fifth-grade student has spent all last week in a third-grade classroom.Julian: Yeah. I mean, it's also coupled with the amount of teachers that are calling out because of the stress and potentially quarantining their own children. So the amount of teacher absences has definitely increased, combined with the lack of people to fill in, and you have yourself a problem. What else do we have, Andrew?Andrew: Yeah, this next one, this is the "Washington Post" article. Title is "The Principal Is Cleaning the Bathroom: Schools Reel With Staff Shortages." This is interesting in this article because I think it was the first time that I saw that they mentioned actually kids with disabilities or students with disabilities losing out on services.Julian: Yeah. I mean, I can definitely think about my own experiences over the last four months, and that we've all become jacks of all trades. You know, I have tools in my office that I have to use to fix things. Or one day we might find ourselves in the cafeteria; one day we might be cleaning. And so it's funny, but it's also really difficult, especially with our students with disabilities or getting the services they need because of staffing shortages.Marissa: All kinds of complications.Andrew: Yeah, and there are some reports about the federal government statistics on this, just to put, like, real hard numbers.Marissa: Yeah.Andrew: There are 460,000 unfilled state and local education jobs, right before this school year. That's almost three times as many as the start of last school year. Just educators, just workers in general, it just tends to happen with schools. It tends to have a bigger impact because those are the ones that parents and families see.Julian: And can you repeat that number again? Like, how many unfilled state and local education jobs are out there?Andrew: Yeah, so I looked at the government statistics on this, and they said that there were 460,000 unfilled state and local education jobs before the start of the school year — 460,000. That's half a million. It's almost three times as many as the start of the last school year.Julian: Wow. I mean, I can only speak to my own experience. In my own school, we are experiencing pretty major shortage of special education. I mean, we need to fill at least 12 positions, and that's not including the food services, the bus drivers, the climate staff, secretaries, I mean, just in general, everybody has been overworked. And we really hope that it's not going to start negatively impacting our students.Andrew, thank you so much for sharing this information. I think it's a great start-off to have our conversation.Andrew: Anytime.Julian: So, Marissa, what do you think about all this?Marissa: I definitely agree that there's a teacher shortage this year. However, I'd like to push that there's been a teacher shortage I think especially in the area of special education for, honestly, since I can remember. I know back when we first started our friendship, when we were working together, it wasn't that bad at that time. I don't remember the teacher shortage at that particular time in our school being as severe as it is now.Within the last five years and more specifically now, after being in the thick of the pandemic, especially when we think about our kids going back to being in person, I feel like that's impacted a decline for sure. Which has added, of course, to the teacher shortage.Julian: Why do you think this is happening? What are some of the reasons why the shortage is so prevalent right now?Marissa: I mean, if you look at it as a whole, I feel like there's multiple layers to this. One reason that I feel like the shortage of teachers in special education is real is because a lot of new teachers who are just coming into it, they're coming into this teaching profession at this very interesting time in our history where there's a lot more areas that are gray that we have to figure out how to best serve our students. And so even though you might've went and got your certification and did your classes and this, that, and whatever about how to support students, they might know all of that information, but putting it into practice in a virtual slash in-person world, I think has added this extra layer of stress that some very new teachers that are coming into this are leaving quick.And then you have the opposite, right? Then you have the veteran teachers who have been doing this work for 10, 15, 20 years. And have also either gotten burned out because again, it's, like, adding additional parts to their workload of having to navigate the pandemic alongside of supporting their students, writing documentation.Julian: Yeah, the burnout is definitely real. Just from what I see, regardless of where you're located, what region you might be in, it seems like the appeal to become an educator is not as strong as it might've once been in prior generations. And you're right, it's stressful, it's extremely stressful. And special education, to me, requires a very specific type of person. Like, somebody that goes above and beyond. Every building I've ever been in, our best special educators are amazing teachers, probably some of the most caring individuals in the building. I mean, I remember you and how you would advocate for your kids above everybody else.Keeping that up, it requires a lot of energy. And if you're stressed out with life in general and with the pandemic, it makes it a lot harder to want to jump into this.Marissa: I appreciate the shout-out.Julian: What about our students that are people of color? What about our students who are in our marginalized communities? What about our students that are already experiencing just systemic oppression? How does this impact them?Marissa: That's, like, a really big piece of it. And I think that our students in, especially as students where they're back in person and they're in urban areas where they're already struggling with having resources prior to the pandemic — resources weren't there before — a lot of our Black and brown students then, that are either going to get ignored, they're not going to get the services. They're going to get ignored and not get the proper education, or they're going to be pushed outside of the classroom or outside of the school because their needs aren't getting met, because there's literally no one there to meet their needs.Julian: Just thinking about today, my school right now has over 40 percent of our students within special education, and 97 percent of our students are African American. Obviously, we have a large population of folks that are fitting into multiple categories. And I can say that the lack of staffing is adversely affecting how they're able to feel success, specifically for our students of color. Do you feel like there's a shortage of special education teachers of color too?Marissa: Absolutely. That's something that has, like, probably been happening again longer than not just pandemic times. I absolutely feel like that is something that has been a constant, because even throughout my entire career, I really — and I was fortunate, right? I feel like at least, like, working in Philadelphia, I was able to be in a more diverse setting with who I was teaching alongside of. Like, I felt like most of the schools, we had a nice diversity on our team, and I'm in a virtual charter that serves the entire state of Pennsylvania.Julian: I'm the assistant principal, and I'll be honest, like, when I walk into the room and especially for our ninth graders, when it's a first experience with the school, so many of the moms that get to meet me, knowing that I'm one of the assistant principals, and I look like their sons, or I look like their uncles, or I look like their dad, or I look like their little brother, and I speak the same language. And I relate in that area. It makes such a difference. Not to say that folks cannot relate, not to say that our white teachers can't find ways to make that happen, but it does make a difference. Like the representation side of it makes a difference. And so not only are our students not having staff in general, but then we're lacking somebody that they feel like they can relate to.So I guess I feel like the lack of staffing and just the struggle and the shortage of finding quality people is probably going to have an impact for years to come. And not to be Debbie Downer, like, this is heavy, and I'm sure you've heard a lot of things that might make you think that this is an untenable situation.And in many aspects, it is really difficult. Both of us are in it right now as we speak. But, say I'm a parent — and I am a parent, by the way — but say I have a student or a child that has learning differences, and my school might not have the special education teachers that are needed. Or there might be shortages as we've been describing. What do I do? What should I be doing?Marissa: And so there's the legal way to answer that question, right? And then there's the parent way.Julian: Let's go with the parent way. Let's go with the parent way first.Marissa: The parent way to me — and as a parent, I'm already, like, pretty consistently communicating with his teacher. That to me is, like, the first line of defense, right, is your student's direct teachers. As a parent, if you are noticing any of these inconsistencies, these shortages, that your kid is not receiving what they need to receive, do attempt to go to the teacher first. And build that relationship. Trying to build that relationship with the teacher, I think is the first step, whether it's on one of the apps that some schools use to communicate, whether it's, like, taking a moment to drop your kid off or pick your kid up at the end of the day, like, having those conversations and trying to build that relationship with the teacher, I think is the first step.Julian: You and I both know the parents that are constantly in contact are the ones that we usually pay attention to. So, I mean, making it your purpose to really be intently getting to know who the teachers are, getting to know the administration, just making your name and making it known who you are in the school. Just really building that relationship starts with just picking up the phone call and asking to talk to the teachers.Marissa: Absolutely. Yes. Sending a text message. And I get it, like, I know everyone is busy. I know everyone is working. I know a lot of families have multiple children. Like, I get that there's a time limit on things you can do. However, I feel like once you start that process, that is going to cut down then on all of those other calls that you might get, because they already have this knowledge of who you are, who your kid is. And I feel like, you're right, as an educator on the other side of it, we probably did a lot more finagling for some of the students that we knew those parents, we knew what the parent was going to say or do, and we knew what they would recommend for us to do with their kid. And so that relationship would be number one.I do think, though, part of it is bigger than that too. I do think depending upon where your student's at, and some of it is outside of the control of the teacher. I think a lot of it, too, is as the parent, getting yourself educated and getting knowledge on what it is, what does it mean for your student to have a certain disability or a learning difference? What does it mean for them to get certain supports? What should those supports look like? That's where I worry often, too, is there has to be some ownership sometimes on the family to understand this on their own for their own interpretation, so they know how to best advocate for their student. Because the parents that do that well, it just lends itself to so much more conversation and action.Julian: You know, have conversations with your kids. Ask them, like, what works for you? What doesn't work for you? Tell me about your teachers. Tell me about your day. Tell me what was going well. Tell me about these different strategies the teachers use that really help you, so that when you do have conversations in a meeting or even offhand with the school, you have something to build from.And I gotta be honest, in our experience, and Marissa, you could back me up on this, part of the issues with our urban schools is that our parents sometimes don't know all of the rights they are afforded. They don't necessarily know as much about what they should be receiving. And so it's really on making sure that you're sharing that information with each other. We already have strong communities, and in our communities of color, that's one of the best parts of it is that it is a collective. We are together. Now we have to share our knowledge with each other so that we can work together collectively to demand the rights that our students are afforded.Marissa: Absolutely. Being part of the process — that's the most important piece. You have to be part of the process from beginning to end. And as we think about the teacher shortage in special education, it's real. We're not going to, like, pretend like it's not this thing that's actually happening. So it's definitely real. My thought, and especially being in the world of higher ed right now, we're already having conversations that are really optimistic about what can we change to make becoming a special educator more appealing and more accessible, because it's such a need, and we need good people in these roles. And once you're in the role, like, there's a lot of fulfillment, and there's so much you can do to see those students able to learn within their abilities with the right teachers supporting them along the way. So I do feel like there is hope to move forward. This is where we're at now. Yes, there's a shortage. We are, though, actively thinking of ways to make it so that there is no more shortage, right? Like, that's the end goal. There can't be this because at the end of the day, we don't want our students to be lost. We don't want our students not to get the support they need.Julian: So we talked about the parent way. What about the legal way? Say a school says, "Well, I'm sorry, there's a teacher shortage, so we can't really give you this service in your IEP."Marissa: Yeah, not an option, Julian, not an option. So one of the benefits of having federal government involved in IEPs in special education — and just as a reminder, an IEP is an Individualized Education Plan — is that they're mandated, and parents have that right through their procedural safeguards to know that if it's in an IEP as what we call specially designed instruction or a related service, schools can't say no. They can, of course, a school can, but however, there's consequences to that, right? This is the right of a student to have this education and to have their needs met. And so right now, what I'm seeing is a lot of schools getting creative to make sure that they are able to meet the students' needs because you have to prioritize the individualized learning for that student. And you have to find a way 'cause it's, it isn't an option, because it can turn into a lot of legal issues, honestly. And I know schools that are going through it where there is due process and mediation, and overall do know their rights. And again, like, we have to keep in mind that our students have to be first, and we it's, it's a shame, the shortage is real, and it's unfortunate. Some schools are doing better than others at finding ways to make sure that they're following the legal part and getting related services for students. I know a lot of schools are starting to do things more virtually, which is helping to address this, because that's been, like, a way where people sometimes feel more comfortable with related services. They're not going into homes, or they're not going into schools. So we're finding ways to do it, but it is not a choice. It is absolutely a legal part that protects the student and the families.Julian: So, at the end of the day, everybody deserves a high-quality education.This has been "The Opportunity Gap," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "The Opportunity Gap" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.Marissa: If you found what you heard today valuable, please share the podcast. "The Opportunity Gap" is for you. We want to hear your voice.Go to u.org/opportunity gap to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash opportunity gap.Julian: Do you have something you'd like to say about the issues we discussed on this podcast? Email us at opportunitygap@understood.org. We'd love to share and react to your thoughts about "The Opportunity Gap."Marissa: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places.We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Andrew Lee, Cinthia Pimentel, and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors.Julian: Thanks again for listening.
Distance learning: Back-to-school resources for families and educators
For some students, going back to school this year could mean continuing with distance learning. Use these distance learning resources for a strong start to the new school year.Parents and caregivers8 ways distance learning makes it harder to focus7 examples of focus “wins” when kids are learning at homeDownload: Picture schedules and learning contracts for kidsLive video lessons: 5 ways kids struggle and how to helpDownload: Family guide to at-home learningEducatorsDistance learning toolkit: Key practices to support students who learn differentlyHow to plan online lessons with Universal Design for Learning (UDL) Distance learning: 6 UDL best practices for online learningOnline assignments: Best practices to use with studentsIEP accommodations during distance learningCo-teaching tips for distance learningTeachers reflect on distance learning (video)5 reasons students aren’t engaging in distance learningReaching students who disappeared during distance learningTips from a teacher on how to lead remote IEP meetingsTeacher videos: 5 reasons why making your own videos can help with distance learning19 brain breaks for distance learning and socially distanced classrooms Wondering how to improve parent-teacher communication during this back-to-school season? Get tips in this video.
Understood Explains Season 1How to request an evaluation for special education
School evaluations are free — and you can ask for one at any time and for any reason. But the details you include can make a big difference. School evaluations are free — and you can ask for one at any time and for any reason. But the details you include can make a big difference. This episode of Understood Explains covers the ins and outs of how to request an evaluation for special education. Host Dr. Andy Kahn is a psychologist who has spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for public and private schools. His first guest on this episode is former special education teacher Christina Gutierrez. They’ll explain three key things:How to request an evaluationWhat details to include and whyHow soon the school needs to respondAndy’s second guest is parenting expert Amanda Morin. They’ll share tips on what to say to your child about requesting an evaluation — and what not to say. Related resources6 steps to requesting a free school evaluationDownload: Sample letters for requesting evaluations and reportsWhy your child’s school may deny your evaluation requestParent training centers: A free resource in your stateEpisode transcriptJennifer: Hi, my name is Jennifer and I live in Atlanta, Georgia. I have a son, Nathan. He is 11 years old. I first started having concerns about Nathan's differences when he was in first grade and his teacher called us in for a meeting. And she said, I just feel like something's not right. Like, he's working really hard in class, but we're not seeing any results. And can you work harder with him at home? And for me, the first thing that happened for me was like this mom guilt, like we haven't been doing enough. I was kind of in denial that it could even be something like dyslexia at first. And once I kind of came around to OK, this actually sounds exactly like what dyslexia is described as, so now what do I do? How do I go about getting him help? I started looking into it and started realizing that I had the right to request that evaluation.Andy: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "Understood Explains." You're listening to Season 1 where we explain evaluations for special education. Over 10 episodes, we cover the ins and outs of the process that school districts use to evaluate children for special education services. My name is Andy Kahn, and I'm a licensed psychologist and an in-house expert at Understood.org. I've spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for both public and private schools. I'll be your host. Today's episode focuses on how to request an evaluation. We're going to explain three key things: what details to include in your request and why, what you can expect after you submit your request, and what you can say to your child about requesting an evaluation — and what not to say. First, back to Jennifer's story.Jennifer: When I knew that I should submit this request for an evaluation, I did some research online. And there's several templates online that you can use to guide you on how to write a request for this evaluation for your child. And so in my first letter that I wrote, I was very just kind of like to the point, like I'm requesting this evaluation. And I didn't put a lot of the background information that I wish I would have included. I was very direct. And I didn't add in the parts that made him a person, if that makes sense. So when I look back on how that went, I kind of wish I would have documented in that letter what I was seeing and why I was requesting the evaluation.Andy: What to include in an evaluation request? This is a big question for many parents. But before we get into those details, I want to mention two important things about special education law. Number one: Over the years, I've worked with many families who didn't know that school districts are required by law to be on the lookout for kids who might have disabilities, and that school districts need to evaluate kids, at no cost to families, to see if a child might need special education services. Number two: Many families are surprised to learn that they can ask the school district to evaluate their child. They don't need to wait for the school to reach out and say, "Hey, we think something's going on, that your child is struggling." You can reach out first. So that's a really important part of special education law — that you can ask your school district to evaluate your child at any time and for any reason. But the way you ask — the details you include — can make a huge difference in helping the school decide how or whether or not to evaluate your child. So my first guest today is going to help me unpack all this. Christina Gutierrez has spent a decade as a special education teacher in New York City, where she recently shifted gears and is now working in a private clinic that provides free evaluations for kids. Christina is an Understood Teacher Fellow. She's also a mom of a child who receives special education. So she knows the evaluation process personally, as well as professionally. So Christina, welcome. So glad to have you here today.Christina: Thank you for having me.Andy: So I understand you worked for many years as a special education teacher. And you also worked for two of those years as a school response to intervention coordinator. Can you tell me a little bit about that?Christina: Yeah. So a school response to intervention coordinator is a role that's pretty specialized. Response to intervention is a school's attempt at catching any lagging gaps that may be happening with students, and intervening either through extra tutoring in reading, or extra tutoring in math, to help students thrive. There are levels to it. There are different tiers — what they call tiers to intervening. So your Tier 1, just for some understanding, is your classroom, just like your natural classroom that you're in, right? Schools are expected to provide classrooms that try to assess — that try to reach every child in their understanding and in academic content. Your Tier 2 is, oh, as a teacher, I'm noticing this kid is struggling a little bit in his math facts. I'm going to pull him every day for a couple of minutes, maybe 15 or 20 minutes a day, to go over these math facts extra just to see if I can in closing on some of that gap. Tier 3 is where a school says oh, a teacher says oh, or a parent says, oh, wait a minute, you've tried this, we've tried this, it's not working. OK, let's intentionally pull a kid out of the classroom environment and provide key instruction in that gap that we're noticing — if it's math facts, if it's reading, if it's writing, whatever the gap is — and then we have pre-assess, right? You see where the kid is in the beginning, you intervene, usually six to eight weeks, and then you test the student's ability at the end of that time. If the student has grown, the intervention has worked, we're going to continue that until we can close the gap. In many cases, the intervention doesn't work. And you say, wait a minute, we've pulled you three times a week for 30 minutes, and you're still struggling in this key area, it may be time to refer for an IEP. So IEP stands for an Individualized Education Program, which is the actual like document that references all of the services a student may get, including their classification.Andy: Cool. So we're talking about general education students here. We just see that there's something that's not going like it needs to go. So we're providing intervention before that process starts.Christina: Absolutely. And after a certain amount of time, I can notice that like, hey, Mom, I've tried this many interventions, or this many activities with your student. He's still pretty struggling or she's still struggling. I think it's time to refer for special education services. Here's how you would go about doing that.Andy: So it sounds like a big part of your job was helping to decide if the school — if they should reach out to parents and asked to evaluate their child. Have you ever reached out unofficially, and said, you know, maybe you should ask the school to do this, you know? Why would you — and why would you give that advice?Christina: Yes, I have. And a lot of the families that — I've worked in primarily urban communities, and a large amount of those students were Black or brown, Black or Latino students, in very under-resourced communities. And so there was a connection there in terms of language, in terms of just like, overall experience. And so parents trusted me a lot. And so a lot of the time, they'd asked me, like, I don't know what to do. And at that point, I would say, here's what you can do. And I would explain to them the steps, like completely from start to finish. The parent has the right, as their child's primary advocate, to request in writing an evaluation for their student. And then they'd go "How do I do that?" I'd say, "Here's how you do it." And in some cases, I would like write it. And in New York State, in particular, it can be written on anything. It can be written on a napkin, it can be written on a Post-it, if it's in a form of writing, has the student's name, the student's school number or identification number. And then you say, like, "I want my child evaluated, because there's a delay in their academic performance, or I'm really concerned about how they're doing in math." Sign your name, and have a date on it. And they have to acknowledge that they've received it.Andy: And Christina, the reason why it's important to put a date on your letter is because schools have to respond within a certain number of days to let you know if they're going to approve or deny your request. The response time frame might be 10 days in some states. It might be 30 days in other states. But the big point is that the school can't leave you hanging forever waiting for a response. The one other thing I want to clarify is that in some states, you don't have to write a letter, you can make an oral request. But it's always, always, always a best practice to submit your request in writing. Listeners, if you go to our show notes, we have a link to state-specific information so you can find out what the time frame is in your state. We also have a link to a template that can help you write a request for an evaluation. OK, so Christina, let's turn back to writing the letter. What kind of details do you encourage parents to put into these letters?Christina: The first is a date, that's really, really important. The other key information or detail is the student's full name, the student's identification number — if not, a key identifier, such as their birthdate. And then a request, like naming what you want evaluated. So I'm requesting a neuropsychological education evaluation. I would like it to also include an occupational therapy, a speech therapy, such and such evaluation — because that's not always given, right? And then that delays the process further if you didn't request that but you did want to see if your kid required those services. So you want to include in detail what you want assessed. And the reason: Because I'm concerned about their performance, because as of lately, whatever the reason is. And then a signed signature.Andy: Absolutely. The thing that you said that I think's interesting is that when you talk, you've named a lot of assessment types. So a lot of my families aren't going to be familiar with those types of assessments. So what would you — what are some other things you might tell them to put in that would be helpful? Because yeah, what you're saying, I would say, I'd go to you. I'd want you to help me write that letter. Because what you're saying is going to just — it sounds like it would plug me right in. For my parents, what are the things they might observe or see that could help them in that process if they don't have that knowledge?Christina: Well, I think the key conversation here would be one with their child's educator. Where do you see that my student is struggling most? I notice that when I'm helping him with homework, or her with homework, they're struggling with their math. I'm notice this is true frustration, they're crying, you know, label the behavior that they see. So I think that's the first one. I would say — something that's a key that helped me, because my son has also has an IEP, and it's something that helped me decide that I wanted to get him special education services, was that I noticed that in our communication, he seemed to be really, really frustrated or not understanding what I was saying. He also could not express himself. And so there was this very, like strong gut instinct that, wait a minute, there may be something happening with my son that I need to address.Andy: So when we're talking about the details to include, is there a certain sort of length of letter or note that's great? What do you see as most effective?Christina: I mean, I think simple is best. I think the key here is, name your concern, and why you have that concern, give identifying information so that they know which child you're referring to. And make sure you have a date and the name on that document. It doesn't need to be lengthy. It can if you feel like you want it to be.Andy: Gotcha. So I would assume that based on that, maybe sending an email would be good as well? Christina: Yeah.Andy: I gotcha. And the theme that I got from you was, in terms of keeping it simple, it sounds like maybe a single-page letter will be just as good as a long letter, in the sense of let's just get the key points out and put it in writing. Who should the family then give the request to? Like, where does this go? Who do you send it to?Christina: Yes. So in New York City, you give the request to the school psychologist, or the guidance counselor, and they will hand it forward. If you don't know who those people are, you can give it to the teacher and the teacher is responsible for bringing it to the parties that be.Andy: Any tips for homeschooled or private school students in terms of doing this process and getting that communication to — to who? I guess that would be a big question.Christina: In New York State, the way you would get your child evaluated in that case, if they're in a private or parochial school, is to go to the committee of special education for that district. It can be tricky for parents whose children are in different school settings because legally, they're not mandated in the same way public schools are to provide these services or to have your student evaluated. It gets a little nuanced and tricky when you decide to go out of the public school system.Andy: So whether you're a homeschool, private school, or public school student, you have the right to request that evaluation. But schools can deny that request. So here's an example of why a school might deny a request. There may be a case where a child has pretty good grades, and they seem to be achieving well and making some academic gains. But the parent sees something that doesn't seem right to them, maybe something seems like it's going on behaviorally, or they're struggling with some anxiety about going to school. And in those situations, the school may deny the request, because they don't see the impact. I often would strongly advise families to appeal that process, to really talk more about that with the school. Because it can be so important to gather things like baseline data. Now what we mean by baseline data is, let's get a sense of what they're doing right now academically, let's get some information. And then if we come back and evaluate them again later, because maybe they're not eligible for a service, you know, to get some certain kinds of support, we may have really important information that can help them in the future. Any other tips for families who are getting ready to submit the request for evaluation. Any other things to keep in mind?Christina: I think the tip to keep in mind most is don't let up. Right? Like you are your child's advocate, you are the best person who can speak for your child. Even if it's in a language that people at their school don't speak in, you have the right and you should not let up. And eventually, you know, even if they don't, they continue to deny your request, at least there's documented proof that you've been requesting the support. And should a need come later, as you said before, Andy, at least there's documented proof that like we've had this anticipation coming. And so here's where we should begin.Andy: So I guess there's one last tip I want to sort of talk about just a little bit. And I say this to a lot of the families that I've worked with over the years. You know, it's really important to avoid confrontational language. And maybe you can talk like, what's your experience when parents get confrontational with the school? How does that — how has that typically gone for you?Christina: I don't recommend confrontation. But I do think that sometimes it happens. And the best way to talk a parent through that is to say like, here are your rights moving forward. Because most people are going to get confrontational if they feel like their rights are being impacted, or I'm not being heard. I'm not being received. And this touches my child you're talking about, right?Andy: Yeah, I think for me when I've had conversations within schools, especially with my younger students, is to say to families, this is a lengthy relationship. This is a relationship that's going to go on for many years, and being really aware of how that communication goes can set you up for more future success.Jennifer: I wish I would have included the types of things that we were seeing at home. Like, he's only in first grade that we've read the entire Harry Potter series together. He sits and listens, he can comprehend the story. He's predicting plot developments that I didn't even see when I read it as an adult. And he's so young, he's so smart. But when he's reading, he's missing words like "he" and "said," and these little words, "of," "if." They're supposed to be the easier words that he's missing these things. And so something's just not right. We're working so hard at home with sight words, and he's just not making the progress that I would expect him to make based on how smart I know that he is. I didn't include those kinds of details. And I really wish that I would have. I don't know, you know, we didn't have the best experience. And I really don't know if that would have made a difference. But when I talk to parents now, I definitely add that as advice to them: When you write your letter, make sure you write what you're seeing at home and why you think that you need that evaluation.Andy: So we've been talking about what to say to your child's school about why you want your child to be evaluated. But what can you say to your child about requesting an evaluation? My next guest is an expert on talking to your child, Amanda Morin, the co-host of Understood "In It" podcast. Amanda: Hi, Andy.Andy: I think so much of this, for us having been in schools for so many years, is really trying to help parents talk to their kids about the request process. What do you think is the best information to share with your child about that process?Amanda: Absolutely. I can say sometimes it's actually more difficult to have this conversation with your child when you're requesting an evaluation, because there is an uncertainty around it. Because a school — you're not always sure if they're going to approve the evaluation request. So I think sometimes it's better to stay a little bit vague and say to your child, "I know that you've been struggling. I've noticed it. We've talked about it a little bit" — if you've talked about it. And if you haven't, now's the time to start having that conversation and say, "I've noticed you're struggling. And I want to help you. And I want to find other people who can help you." And I think that's the time when you say, "So because I've noticed this, I've reached out to the school. And I've asked them to take a look at it so we can see if there's more help we can provide for you." And I think that's sort of the crux of what you want to say right now, until you have more informationAs more information comes in, right — as as you get to the process where the school is replying to your to your request for evaluation, then you can say to your child, "OK, so I've heard back from the school. And they've decided that it's a good idea to look closely at this — at what's going on. And you're going to start seeing some of this move forward." Or there may be a possibility where you say to your child, "You know what, the school and I took a look at this, and we're going to wait, we're going to hold for right now. So I told you that we're going to look at those skills. But in the meantime, I'm going to talk to your teacher, or other people in your school, and we're going to figure out what we can do to help you right now." So I think there are a number of ways you can handle that conversation.Andy: I think that's a really great piece of advice. The idea is that the entire crux of this conversation is we're looking to get some help for your child. And even in the absence of an evaluation, there is likely to be some help that's going to be offered. It just may not be the same thing we expected had they gone through the evaluation,Amanda: Yeah, and I don't think you would necessarily say to a child, whether they're young or old, "We're going to go through the RTI process." Because it's very — it's very technical, right? So even if you say "response to Intervention," what you want to say is there are programs in place that can help you learn skills that you're having trouble with, that are more intensive, or they're more supportive than the general education classroom, because they're designed to be that way. So I think there are ways around that language because it's very technical, right? And I'm not saying we would use it, but I think it's worth thinking through how do you describe that to a child. And what you say to them is, there are these programs in place already in your school, that don't require me reaching out to the school and asking them to do something extra. This is built in to the school's programming. And you may end up having a little extra support from your teacher, a different teacher, or some other professional in the school.Andy: I think the simplest terminology is "We're doing a process to figure out how to help you best. Some of that help might be offered now. Some might be offered later." So the idea around this is we really just want to be aware of what this process feels like. And at least giving them an idea of what to expect while we're going through it. So I think that's really, really important.Amanda: I love how you put that because I think it's — what you're saying really resonates with me is the idea of making sure we're keeping kids in the loop. And that's what this is all about, is keeping kids in the loop so they're not surprised when something new comes their way.Andy: All right, so let's take a quick look at the next steps in the evaluation process. So at this point, we've done a written request detailing why we want the evaluation. We've found out who to send the request to, and the district has to respond within a certain number of days. And that number of days can vary depending upon what state you're in. So if your school district says yes, we'll evaluate your child, the next step is to formally give your consent to say that you agree, in writing, and then help the school develop the evaluation plan. We'll do the evaluation plan in the next episode of "Understood Explains," so stay tuned for that. If the school district says no, we're denying your request, the next step is to make sure you understand why the school denied it. Then you can decide whether you want to wait and see how things go or you want to pursue some dispute resolution options and push forward to try to get that assessment. You know, families whose request gets denied may want to listen to Episode 3, where we talk all about your evaluation rights. Also, in Episode 8, we talked about private evaluations, including something called the independent education evaluation that the school district has to pay for. If there's one thing to take away from this discussion, it's that you can ask your school district to evaluate your child at any time. But the concerns you include in your request can make a big difference in what happens next. As always, remember that as a parent, you are the first and best expert on your child. You've been listening to Season 1 of "Understood Explains" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. And now, just as a reminder of who we're doing all this for, I'm going to turn it over to Lucy to read our credits. Take it away, Lucy.Lucy: "Understood Explains" is produced by Julie Rawe and Cody Nelson, who also did the sound design for the show. Briana Berry is our production director. Andrew Lee is our editorial lead. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. A very special thanks to Amanda Morin and all the other parents and experts who helped us make this show. Thanks for listening and see you next time.Andy: Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.
Preparing for back to school: what to expect, and how parents can help children thrive
As children around the country return to school, the new “Back to School Study” by Understood and UnidosUS, the largest Latino civil rights and advocacy organization in the U.S., finds that teachers and parents predict increased academic, mental health, and social and emotional challenges for learning.The study found that 68% of teachers and more than 60% of parents prefer and expect their children to return to school in person full-time. Despite feeling ready for a return to the classroom, 90% of U.S. teachers and 61% of parents believe there will be increased challenges as children head back to school. But with committed engagement and support, parents can help their child ease back into this school year as confidently and effectively as possible. Academic developmentMore than half of parents (55%) are concerned about their children’s academic development in the new school year, which is even higher among parents of children with learning and thinking differences (68%) than without (41%). Additionally, approximately three-quarters (73%) of educators surveyed are concerned about children's academic development in the new school year. “As we return to in-person learning this fall, it’s critical that we meet all kids where they are -- not where they ‘ought to’ be,” Amanda Morin, Understood Director of Thought Leadership and Expertise, said. “It will be up to educators to work in tandem with parents to identify the scope and scale of the gap to ensure we support all children, with a critical eye to those who have additional challenges with learning.”To better help parents prepare for some of the upcoming academic challenges, Understood experts recommend:Using technological tools such as Google Classroom, PowerSchool, and Infinite Campus to stay tuned into your child’s learning and gauge academic progress to identify if and when they might need more support. Trying to check your child’s homework nightly and ask questions about the assignments to ensure your child is clear on the teachers’ expectations. If your child isn’t clear, bring that to the teachers’ attention right away so they don’t feel or fall behind. Checking out Take N.O.T.E., developed by Understood in partnership with the American Association of Pediatrics. Take N.O.T.E. is a web-based guide to help families and teachers identify the signs of learning and thinking differences in their children, and use that understanding to take the necessary next steps to better support their child. Take N.O.T.E. has been recently enhanced with interactive elements and learning modules -- such as audio and video content, observation trackers, prompts, and tips for conversation-starting -- intended to drive engagement and inspire action.Mental healthMost parents (68%) surveyed are concerned about the mental wellbeing of their child and the school’s ability to help during the upcoming year, including 76% of parents of children with learning and thinking differences and 60% without. More than half (65%) of educators surveyed are concerned about children’s anxiety going back to school; 43% expressed concerns about depression, while 62% are concerned about the overall emotional wellbeing of children. According to senior advisor and one of the founding experts of Understood, Bob Cunningham, “The best thing parents can do is stay engaged in what’s going on in their child’s life academically, socially, and emotionally. Learn how to recognize when your child has too much on their plate. When they do, help them make a list to figure out their priorities and what can wait until another time.”And remember -- if you see signs of clinical anxiety/depression or are worried your child is at risk of harming themselves, always make an emergency appointment with a healthcare provider.Social and emotional developmentMore than half (55%) of parents are concerned that their child will fall behind emotionally in the upcoming year and will not be able to catch up, including 68% of parents of kids with learning and thinking differences and 41% without. The majority of educators (63%) surveyed are concerned about students’ social development this school year. Find ways to help your child reconnect with friends and peers. This might mean making sure they are getting out of the house regularly -- be it the grocery store, neighborhood activities, sporting events, or beyond, it’s critical that children engage with and feel a part of their community. For older children, try talking to them about how they're feeling about their friends and relationships. Help them identify and plan ways to (safely) engage with friends and build those relationships again.As it relates to “modeling” behavior for children, Understood expert Michelle Lassiter also calls out the importance of parents addressing their own emotional wellbeing in order to help their child do the same. “Encouraging parents to focus on their own emotional wellbeing and then discuss it with their children is an excellent first step. From there, you can help each other find the tools -- be it meditation, yoga, breathing exercise, physical activity -- that both you and your child need to thrive emotionally and mentally.”If any of the challenges reported in this article or survey are familiar to you or someone you know, visit Understood or the following resources:Supporting children’s mental health this school yearWhen kids are anxious about the coronavirus: What to doWill my child bounce back from the coronavirus crisis?Anxiety in people who learn and think differentlySigns of anxiety in young kidsSigns of anxiety in tweens and teens10 ways to help your grade-schooler cope with stress10 ways to help your middle- or high-schooler cope with stressSigns of depression at different agesDownload: Anxiety log to find out why your child gets anxious
ADHD Aha!ADHD and distraction in the military and at home (Justen’s story)
Justen Scott has had trouble focusing since high school. When others in the military started to notice, he knew it was time to get evaluated for ADHD. Justen Scott got diagnosed with ADHD this year at age 27. His ADHD “aha” moment happened while he was stationed in Qatar for military service, and work just kept piling up. Trouble with focus and time management had been a problem for Justen since high school. But when others in the military started to notice his challenges, he knew it was time to get evaluated for ADHD.Host Laura Key and Justen talk about trying to seem “cool” on the outside — even as thoughts race a mile a minute on the inside — and how one small noise can be a huge distraction. Hear Justen’s take on how the military handles ADHD. And pick up a few tips on managing ADHD along the way.Related resources9 tips to help military families navigate the systemLearning and thinking differences that cause trouble with time managementHow ADHD is diagnosed in young adult and adultsEpisode transcriptJusten: I was over in Qatar, you know, I'm the deputy for my office. And at this time I had a lot of meetings to go to. And I went to my first meeting, and when I got back, my boss was like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "What are you talking about, sir?" He was like, "You know, you have another meeting." And I'm like, "Oh, man." So I had to rush to that meeting, and I'm already late, so, you know, I'm kind of already feeling bad. So when I get back to the office, the phone rings. I'm on the phone, and I'm supposed to be doing some more work, fixing some Excel sheets. So after that phone call, I tell my boss, "Hey, I'm gone for the day, see you tomorrow."And he's like, "Did you finish the Excel sheets?" And I'm like, "Oh, those Excel sheets." So I had to stay a little later to finish the Excel sheets. And that's kind of like the time I was like, "Wow, what's going on, like, why am I always distracted? Why can't I remember stuff?" Then I realized that, well, you really got a problem, dude.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!" — a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Justen Scott. Justen is a student in New York City who is currently in the Army Reserve. Welcome, Justen. Thanks for being here today. Justen: Thank you for having me. Laura: I'm excited to talk with you today. And I guess I want to start, I want to say thank you for your service in the military.Justen: Thank you for your support, ma'am.Laura: Tell our listeners what you do or what you have done in the service.Justen: So I went to Bethune-Cookman University. I was in the ROTC program there. Got a commission and I went into the reserves. For like three years, I went to drill and stuff every month, then I eventually got on active duty orders. I was in Kentucky, went to Fort Bragg, and then I recently, last year, came back from Qatar. And I'm a medical service officer, but when I was in Qatar, I was doing more, uh, operation contract work.Laura: What led you to military service?Justen: Well, when I was in college, I'm a physical education/recreation major, and I wasn't doing no extracurricular activities. So somebody put a little bug in my ear, said, "Hey, you should try ROTC." Tried it, got a scholarship, and then that was it.Laura: You're in the New York area. Is that right?Justen: Yes, ma'am.Laura: Where did you grow up?Justen: Fayetteville, North Carolina. Yeah, I'm an Army brat. My dad was in the Army.Laura: OK, so was that part of your motivation for joining the military as well? No? Interesting.Justen: The whole military thing was my ex's parents' idea.Laura: Got it.Justen: That's why I said a little birdie put it in my ear.Laura: Got it. Tell me about what happened in Qatar related to ADHD.Justen: My favorite boss that I ever had, his name was Major Jonathan Ward. He's one of those people who's like very detailed, like by the book, like, "Hey, after this thing, you do this. After this thing, you do this." So at the time, I was kind of transitioning to take his position before a new person came in. So I had to go to more meetings. And there was a meeting one time, I went to it, but we had other meetings scheduled after that. And me, my ADHD, I forgot. So I got back to the office and I'm just like relaxing. And he's like, "What are you doing?" And I'm looking at him like, "What do you mean?" "You have another meeting." I'm like, "Oh, my goodness." So I have to rush to that meeting, and, you know, and the Army don't like you being late. So now I'm kinda like looking all ashamed, like, "Sorry for being late," you know, it was my fault. And then I also had work to do previously before the meetings. So when I got back from that meeting, I got a phone call, got distracted, forgot to do my work. I'm about to leave, like, "Hey, sir, have a nice day." He's looking at me like, "Did you finish your other work?" And I'm like, "Oh." And that happened a lot, but luckily I had a master sergeant who was like my partner in crime. He would kind of remind me like, "Hey LT, you have a meeting. Hey, we got to go here." My mind would just be all over the place.Laura: What's LT?Justen: Uh, lieutenant. I don't like to be calling "sir," because it just feels weird to me. I feel older. I just say "LT" or "Lieutenant."Laura: This was an "aha" moment for you. This sounds like it was some kind of breakthrough. Like it, it really stuck with you, this incident or incidents that happened in Qatar. You were struggling with focus it sounds like, distraction, time management.Justen: It's one of those things, like when it keeps happening, other people will start noticing it too. So they're kind of like trying to help out. My girlfriend, she was over there at the time, and she wasn't even in my section, but she would remind me of stuff, too, as well. Like, "Don't you have to be here? Don't you have to do this?" And I'm like, "Oh, you're right. I do have to do that." So it was just like one of the things like when people, other people start noticing, then you start thinking a little more about it.Laura: So what did you do from there?Justen: So when I was in Qatar, they couldn't really do nothing there because COVID, and where I was at, they weren't letting us go off base or get a real evaluation from an actual doctor. So when I came back, that's when I went to the actual doctor, and they did like the evaluation.Laura: You went to your primary care doctor?Justen: Well, now it's my Veteran Affairs doctor.Laura: Yeah. You're going to have to school me a little bit on the terminology around the military. I'm not as familiar as I should be.Justen: It's all good. It's like the VA, you know, that's kinda like a separate entity. They deal with the veterans and everything. Then they actually had the, like the military providers.Laura: Is ADHD something that's openly talked about in the military, just based on your experience?Justen: From my experience, no. To me personally, like military stuff, when it comes to anybody that's different or has a problem, depending on your leadership, of course, they don't like to really talk about it or help, in a way. But there's some leaders that actually help out, like my favorite boss, I told him my problems I'm having. I also have a sleep problem too. So they think it's narcolepsy type 2. They diagnose, they diagnosed it, but I already took my sleep study test and everything. Like I can go to deep sleep in less than three minutes.Laura: Wow.Justen: And so I told him that, and he didn't need no diagnosis or nothing. He understood. So if I'm in the office — and that's what's messing me up, too, I might forget, I might go to sleep. And he'd be like, "Wake up, sunshine!" And "Oh, my fault, sir." Like, I can't help it. I just go to sleep. Depending on who your leader is, they'll either really help you out or understand. But some, they just don't care.Laura: You got evaluated.Justen: Yes.Laura: You got diagnosed? How old were you at that time?Justen: Twenty-seven.Laura: Twenty-seven? So that was this year. OK. Welcome, Justen. Welcome to our club.Justen: Welcome to the club.Laura: How was school for you? Did you ever experience any ADHD symptoms that you can remember growing up?Justen: Elementary school, like K through five, I used to get in trouble a lot because I finished my work before everybody. I ain't gonna lie, like I was, to me, I feel like I was really like a little genius-type thing. Like when I was younger, stuff was just so easy to me. Like, I'll finish my work and everybody else's still doing their work. So I'd talk a lot. And I'm like, "Hey, why are you still doing your work?" So then I'd get in trouble for that. And they always put me like in advanced classes in elementary and middle school.But when I got to high school, that's when I was like, I really don't, school's really not doing it for me. Like, I never did homework. If I did do homework, it was in the morning time, five minutes before class. But I could score high on the quizzes and tests. So keep my grade at like a C or something. If I would've did homework, probably could have been making all A's, but I wanted to go home and do what I wanted to do. I didn't want to come home to do homework.Laura: That sounds like you were procrastinating a lot in high school.Justen: Yes. And it could have been from, dang, I didn't want to do it and get distracted, while you think about it.Laura: I mean, that's a, that's pretty common with ADHD, and I'm not surprised to say that this started a pop up for you in high school because in high school, there were so many more demands on our executive functioning skills, our time management, our organization, our prioritization. So obviously you're super bright, super smart, and lots of people with ADHD are. ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence, right? You are in advanced classes. You're doing well. And then it sounds like maybe you hit a wall in high school.Justen: Yeah. And it was like learning wasn't fun for me then. In high school, I don't know, it's like a switch came. Like, in elementary school and middle school, I actually liked reading books and stuff. Like now I have to listen to Audible books because at least I could still move and listen. And I know people make fun of people for doing it, but I had to read with my finger because I literally get lost so quick. And then boom, page 10 come, and I'm asleep.Laura: That's actually a good tactic for people with ADHD. It sounds like maybe you were distracted looking at all that stuff on the page.Justen: Yeah. It's like the two lines above and two lines below it. Like they start smushing that line and I'm like, "Oh no." So either like you use the ruler or you use your finger.Laura: So they also have apps for on your phone where you can just like, you're only looking at the one thing you're supposed to be looking at. I'm not surprised to hear you say that was a way that you coped, just like you came to that on your own. So what were you interested in, in high school?Justen: Video games, sports. And hanging out with my friends. I played football and baseball, never made basketball. 'Cause they cut me, you know. They weren't really that good.Laura: What position did you play in baseball? I have a theory going in my head right now. I want to test it out.Justen: I was center field and left field. I wanted to pitch, but Coach didn't let me.Laura: Did you ever get distracted out in the outfield? You're laughing.Justen: Baseball, like when I'm in an outfield, I dance. Even in Little League. Like when I was a pitcher, I dance on a mound when I used to throw it. And when I'm in the outfield, I dance. Yeah. Especially if the pitcher's just having an off game and you see him just walk everybody. And you just like, "Come on, dude, like, I'm out here bored." So I just have to do something, so I just start dancing. And you just hear Coach, "J. Scott, stop dancing!" And I'm like, "My fault, Coach."Laura: You're kind of confirming my theory here. I talked to someone recently about baseball on the show and I was asking, "Is baseball one of the hardest sports for people with ADHD to play, unless they're the pitcher or the catcher?" Because there's so much downtime. Outfield's gotta be tough when you struggle with focus. I'm glad to hear you danced your way through that.So it sounds like you weren't as interested in like typical school subjects.Justen: Oh, no. It's like, oh, I was already thinking in my head, why am I even taking this subject? What is this going to do for me? So if I really thought about it like that, then I really wasn't doing nothing for that class. Like chemistry. I was like, what am I going to do with chemistry. Like, what am I ever going to need pre-calculus? Never.Laura: It's not like people with ADHD are all interested in math or all interested in sports. It's really just like any other human, you have your interests, but you have to have that interest to focus. Whereas people without ADHD, it's much easier for them to focus on something that they are less interested in.When I talk to you, you are very calm. I get a very calming presence from you, relaxed, in like the best possible way. Like, aware, but chill. Is your brain that way too?Justen: No, not at all.Laura: What's it like in your brain?Justen: Well, I was explaining to somebody yesterday that there's so much stuff that'd be going on, sometimes I could cry. I wouldn't say it's like a painful cry. It's like a cry like, "Why can't you just focus on one thing, Justen?" Like, cause it, plus my brain is so creative. I like making skits, and I like doing music, and I'm doing acting now. So I think of like short films. And then I think about one of my bros, he makes beats. So I think about songs and stuff.And just all this stuff that like coming at once and I want to like focus on it, but then something else comes in, I'll be like, "Oh, let me do this way." I'm like, "Oh no, this is a better idea." And I did, I had like three things back, I haven't even finished that. And that's just like the creative part in wanting to do something. But the actual just, even, I got a lot of dishes in the sink. I have to wash the dishes. I'm supposed to wash a couple of dishes because she cooked. But I see it and I literally have a fight. I'm like, "Justen, do you want to do the dishes right now? I mean, we could leave them to the morning, but what is she going to say? I mean, we could worry about it in the morning. It really ain't going to matter." And then if I, my room I go in to play the game. I just leave my headphones on the bed, controller on the bed, and whatever else I had in here and she'll come in and be like, "You don't know how to put the controller back and the headphones back where it was supposed to be?I'm like, I thought at the time, that's what the headphones and the controller and stuff supposed to be. And then, on top of that, I'm supposed to wash the dishes right after that, then I'm like, "Well, I need to go listen to music in the shower and go jam out." So I forgot about all these things because I'm focusing on going to take my shower and go to bed. So it just that'd be like the Flash is, and just like, slow down.Laura: The woman you're talking about and all that, that's your girlfriend?Justen: She doesn't have ADHD at all. Trust me, I know.Laura: Does she know that you have ADHD?Justen: Yes. Even before I got diagnosed, she was thinking it already too. She was like, "Do you have, like" — that's why I say when people start noticing, like, "Why are you always forgetting to do this? Why you can't never sit down nowhere? Like you always want to do something different. Focus on this, focus on that." I'm like, oh —Laura: Yeah. We have a lot of resources on our website, for all kinds of people. But one of the tips that we give parents who have kids with ADHD is try to avoid saying, "Just focus, just try harder to focus." 'Cause it's not like you can just flick a switch.Justen: I try to tell people, I am, like, I wish I could just be like, "Hey, let me just go wash the dishes real quick." And somebody would be like, "That should be easy." It's literally not easy. Like I had to fight my brain to say, "Hey, we're not about to do this right now. 'Cause is that important right now? Let's go do what we want to go."Laura: I hate that "should" word.Justen: "You should focus." You should leave me alone.Laura: You should leave me alone. So, your brain, your brain moves, what? A hundred miles an hour, a thousand miles an hour, 5,000 miles an hour?Justen: I'd say about almost a million, just about.Laura: But your actions aren't catching up to what your brain is doing.Justen: No, they don't. I try to be more chill. So you don't see me like expressing all that, because then you're really going to be like, "Dang, what the heck's wrong with him?" 'Cause I literally be bouncing around if I'm not like relaxed.Laura: You just reminded me of something growing up. I remember like before I realized that I had ADHD, like in high school and college, I always wanted to seem really like cool and relaxed, but it was such a hoax. 'Cause I just, I'm like the opposite of that.Justen: Oh, my goodness. Like I used to hate, like, if I was chill and relaxed, "What's wrong with you?" And I'd just be like, "What do you mean what's wrong with me?" I said, I can't be chill? And if I'm really relaxed, my voice goes to like, "Yeah. OK."Laura: You just dropped like a full octave.Justen: I was like, I can't just relax and chill? This is how I feel right now. And then that makes you get back into your mold again, like the whole like hyper-type thing.Laura: But then also a lot of energy goes into that. And then like, when you need to step away, it's like, "I need to step away, leave me alone. I need to be alone."Justen: Then on top of that, with me, I have like anger problems too. Like I get irritated real quick, and that's why my psychiatrist is trying to tell me that's kind of one of those things, too, with it, your irritability 'cause it is crazy how I get mad that quick.Laura: Mm-hm. I really relate to that, too, Justen. Listen, a lot of people don't know, and maybe you do know, but trouble managing emotions is a common sign of ADHD. It's related to your executive functioning skills, which is kind of like the CEO of the brain pulling the strings. And it's like, you can go from zero to 50 really fast. That irritability, I mean, I know that feeling, too, like sometimes I'll catch a sound from across the room and I'll just start to get irritated. And then I can't shake it for like 20 minutes.Justen: Yo! Oh, my goodness. That'd be me! I don't, like, I've loved being like petty, like once, like you get me upset or something, I like harp on to it. And I just like zone in and it's like, I feel bad for my girlfriend, 'cause she just, like, "I just say one simple thing and you can just get mad." I'm like, "You might not have thought it was something big, but my brain thought it was something out of this world. Like, you got me angry like that, so." They didn't put me in anger management yet. I'm still waiting to go.Laura: Justen, it has been so nice to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on.Justen: Thank you for having me.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha!" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash ADHDAha. Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening.
My Parents’ Biggest Back-to-School Regret (and How They Made Up for It)
At the end of each summer of my childhood, I’d get an aching feeling in the pit of my stomach. It was time to go back to school.Because of my learning differences, I have trouble with writing, organization and processing information. School was like trying to swim in quicksand. I struggled so much in my classes and developed anxiety about almost every aspect of schoolwork. Summer meant salvation from the academic stress. But summer always ended.In the weeks before the start of school, my parents thought the best way to help was to be relentlessly upbeat with me.“I have a feeling this new school year is going to be different,” my dad would say confidently.“We know you’re going to do way better,” my mom added.“And it’s essential for your future that you try to get better grades,” they both said. “You can do it.”I’d nod agreeably, trying to end the conversation and block it all out.Behind my parents’ cheerful statements, they also had their own anxieties. My father, a successful doctor, confessed to one of my teachers that he feared I would never get to college. And my mom blamed herself for the fact I couldn’t get my act together in school.My parents tried everything they could to help me academically. Each year, I got more support in my classes. I tried different tutors and programs. A few times they even had me switch schools. With each change, I promised them: “I’ll do better this year.” Some of the changes did help. But deep down, I knew I couldn’t live up to the standard they set.Eventually, the focus on school wore down our relationship. Some of my fondest childhood memories of summer are going to the movies with my parents and playing Ping-Pong with them. But those activities faded away as school started. Whenever we spent time together, the conversation eventually turned to schoolwork: “Shouldn’t you be studying?”I reached a breaking point in middle school. I was failing most of my subjects. Thoughts of failure replayed over and over in my head, like a bad movie. My freshman year of high school wasn’t much better.That’s when something started to click for my parents.They started to realize my learning differences had nothing to do with me not trying enough. School would always be hard for me, no matter how much support I had. And acting like everything was going to be OK wasn’t helping me. What I needed was for them to acknowledge and be open about my struggles. Thankfully, they started to do that.In the summer before college, my parents sat me down. Over four years of high school, our relationship had changed—for the better.“We know college is going to be really challenging for you,” my dad said.“It’s not going to be easy, but we’re proud of your effort regardless of your grades,” my mom added softly.That freshman year in college, I worked hard and got through my classes. I still struggled, but it helped that my parents were honest about my challenges. Their support gave me the self-esteem I needed to persevere, with far less frustration and angst.They still wanted me to do well in school. They still encouraged me. But they never again denied my learning differences or placed an unfair expectation on me. It was less about my grades, and more about my journey with learning and thinking differences.Recently, I spoke with my mom and dad about things they would have done differently during back-to-school season. They said their biggest regret wasn’t about my academics. It was about saying to me that everything would be fine when they knew it might not be. They told me they wished they’d understood earlier how hard it was for me. And I gave both of them a hug.Read a child expert’s advice on how to help your child with back-to-school anxiety. Get tips on how to reduce jitters for the first day of school. And learn what not to say to a child with learning and thinking differences about the new school year.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.
In ItSchool refusal: When kids say no
School refusal is real, and it’s trying to tell you something. But how do you figure out what that is? Lots of kids say “I don’t feel like going to school” at some point. But for some, it’s more than that — they flat-out refuse to go. And you can’t make them. School refusal is real, and it’s trying to tell you something. But how do you figure out what that is? In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra talk with a family who’s been “in it” when it comes to school refusal. Listen to Erin and Meg share the story of their son’s school refusal. Find out what they did to get through it. Plus, learn common signs of school refusal. Related resourcesSchool refusal: What it means when kids won’t do schoolworkSchool refusal: How to help kids copeBack-to-school anxiety in kids: What to watch out forEpisode transcriptAmanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood.org, and a parent to kids who learn differently. Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And this is "In It." Amanda: "In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. And on this show, we talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids to offer perspectives, stories, and advice for, from, and by people who have challenges with all types of learning differences. Gretchen: And today we're talking about school refusal.Amanda: Which is a short and sweet label for a not-so-sweet phenomenon that can throw families into turmoil.Gretchen: This refusal might involve tears or tantrums, or just a flat-out refusal to budge.Amanda: And whatever it looks like, school refusal is almost always an indication that there's an issue that needs to be understood so it can be addressed.Gretchen: Today, we're talking to two parents who have definitely been in it when it comes to school refusal.Amanda: Erin and Meg are massage therapists in Massachusetts, and they're parents to two young kids.Gretchen: Erin and Meg, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to be speaking with you today.Erin and Meg: Thank you.Gretchen: Let's start with a little background. Can you tell us a bit about yourselves and about your son, who's in third grade?Erin: We are parents to two kiddos. Our son is almost 9, and our daughter is 4 1/2. And we, last year, went through a really tough experience with our older son, who, for various reasons, found himself up against not being able to make it to school.Gretchen: Had your son liked going to school before all this happened?Erin: I would say that he was never a kid that just loved school and was just like, "School is my place." He loves the social aspect of school. He has lots of great friends. He goes to a really amazing school. It's a nature-based elementary. So in the K–1 program, lots of play, lots of outside time. It was the transition to second grade that, well, obviously we had an overlap of things, um, and COVID was one of them. But he did start off really strong, and it was great for our kids to be back together, and they were outside, and it was amazing. And part of it was the weather changed. It got colder. While it is great to be outside to play, it's not as awesome probably to be outside to learn how to write or to be working on math. So, those kinds of challenges were there, but certainly there was a shift just in structure. He was in a new classroom with new teachers. It became more academic, and those were some of the things that really were making it hard for him to go.And a really COVID-specific thing — we didn't realize that he thought that the new year meant that COVID would be over. And that was really heartbreaking. I mean, it's still, like, really emotional to think that. He was holding a lot more anxiety around COVID than we realized. And so pretty much after the new year, he hit a wall where he was, he was done.Amanda: So what did it look like when he said "I'm not doing this anymore"?Meg: A lot of things, actually. I mean, you know, it could look like anything from "I'm physically not going to get out of bed." The, you know, verbal "You can't make me go." You know, and a lot of panic, like he would run. He would run and hide. Um, he sometimes he'd run in the bathroom and just get in the bathtub. And then he'd be like, "You're scaring me." Um, because we're like, "Buddy, we gotta go to school." It would look like a parent would have to be with him every step. Help him brush his teeth, help him get his socks on, and then help him get into the car. It took a lot to just get him to switch his brain to thinking like, "OK, this is happening. We're going to school."Erin: It never felt good to feel like we were making him do something that he didn't want to do. And we think about, a lot, just where do you find that line with that tough love of "We know you're going to a safe place, and we know that you're actually fine once you are there, but we see that you are in a state of total fight-or-flight right now"? And we really were able to hold the whole time. Like, he's not giving us a hard time; he is having a hard time —Meg: He's going through a hard time.Erin: But it is super triggering when you have a kid who is almost 8 years old and is just, like, in a violent rage.Gretchen: So, Amanda, I have a question for you. You know, Meg and Erin were describing those meltdowns, and those seem to be one of the signs of their son's school refusal. But there's gotta be other signs that families can look for, right?Amanda: Yeah, totally. Some of the other signs of school refusal are those things like older kids, they may play hooky. They may skip class. You often hear kids complain of not feeling well, but it's kind of, like, vague. It's a vague "maybe they have a stomachache." They hadn't slept well. Um, when they do get to school, they may call frequently to come home. They're angry at everybody for seemingly no reason; they're crying. There's a lot of emotion. And a lot of kids will actually deliberately get into trouble at school so they can get sent home. And I've been there as a parent. I had a son who had school refusal issues. Getting the call from school is a tough thing.Gretchen: It must be a tough thing. You know, we also asked Erin and Meg if they felt supported by their son's school as they were navigating all of this.Erin: The hard part is his anxiety wasn't showing up at school at all. Truly, once he was there, he was fine. We had a couple of experiences of him not wanting to get out of the car once we got there. And one of the days that I was probably the most emotional, I couldn't get him out of the car, and I actually just phoned up to the head of school and he came down and he took him out onto the soccer field and kicked the soccer ball around with him. And it just meant so much to know that other people were holding him in that way. But that was one of the hardest parts is last year, trying to find that extra support, find the therapist who had availability, find really any of the resources to help us parent him the way he needed, but help him with what he was going through.Gretchen: So, when did you realize this wasn't just a temporary thing that would go away on its own? And when you realized that, what did you do next?Meg: So, around February, I think we started to see the forest through the trees, with the baseline anxiety that was going on and just seeing, "Oh, wait a minute. This isn't about you just not wanting to go to school. Like, you're completely shutting down; like, you're in your amygdala right now and we need to get you into your frontal cortex." And we just, we started naming it and saying like, "You have worries, you have anxiety," and just sort of helping him cope.Erin: Well, what we did in February was actually just make the conscious choice of, "We need to give you a break." And we made a conscious choice to keep him home for a month and connect him with the remote piece. And it was instant, and we were really lucky that there was a way to keep him connected to his classroom. But, as many parents probably can attest, the remote learning experience was not — not optimal. And once the remote program was phased out, we kind of thought, "OK, we'll wait for things to warm up and we'll give him a break." Like, that's what you need is a real break from this. But he never really bounced back. And I think those last three months of school were actually the hardest where it was like, "OK, what, what do we do?" How do we do this? He had a friend who used to leave him little videos in the morning, like, "Will you come to school today? I want to play soccer with you." And I'd be in the bedroom bawling. He'd be watching these videos, and sometimes it really was the thing that got him there. Like, "I really want to play soccer with you." And then there were some days where he was like, "I really don't care. I don't care what I'm missing." And so probably by the end, he was only making it to school two to three days a week, if we were lucky. And it really felt like we were dragging all of us to the finish line of the school year.Amanda: Did you ever think about sort of like that balance between sort of hearing them versus caving in? How did you grapple with that?Meg: All the time. I think it was in February when we let go of the rope. You know, we just said, "OK, we're just going to let go of this." And I think we just realized that it wasn't about us caving in as parents as much as it was us actually just validating something that was really challenging and hard for him. And if a Dunkin' Donuts doughnut did that for him, then so be it. And, sure, it sparked up a lot of, "Oh my God. Is this going to happen every time? Is he going to expect this every time?" But I think he just really felt like, "Yeah, this is hard for me." You know what I mean? And it, and it. I guess I just didn't feel like it was us caving in as much as us —Amanda: There was no, there's no judgment on my part there. I just want to make it really clear. Meg: When you said, when you said "cave in" like, yeah, that, that's the first thing I was like, dude, I don't want to cave on this. Like, "You shouldn't need this to do this. We have to do this." And then we had to let go of the rope and say, "No, it's OK."Erin: I struggled to do that a lot, though. I mean, you were so much better about that than I was. Because I felt like there were moments that I was like, "I don't even recognize myself as a parent anymore." Like, where are we going, and how do we ever come back from this? Like, "Here are your Skittles as you are on your drive to school at 7:30 in the morning, like, wow."Gretchen: We've all been there.Erin: Just really wild.Gretchen: I mean, if he's not in pajamas, that's a win.Erin: Yeah.Meg: Well, even, even now — I mean, just, you know, for, like, we have a system for him and what it is, and he's doing it independently. But again, the focus is he's doing this independently where he wakes up every morning; he'll get dressed; he goes through his steps independently.And the trade-off is he gets to play Minecraft before he goes to school. And, you know, as a parent, you know, I don't want my kid on screens. Like, you know, you really freak out about it, but, in the end, 15 minutes of Minecraft —Erin: He's ready before any of us; he's up and out. It's mind-blowing, actually.Meg: It feels like, like, I'm OK with that.Amanda: I love the phrase "letting go of the rope." I really love that you use that. There's a part of me that, like, I can just visualize that. It's just that — and in my mind, the rope is like all of those expectations that everybody has that we have in the back of our brain as parents, right?Meg: Yeah.Amanda: So, I just want to know if you did experience any of that judgment. Did people say things that really seemed insensitive to you?Erin: People were surprisingly compassionate. And that may have been because it was a COVID year. I think back and feel like everybody was going through something at that time, so people had a lot more understanding that our kids were going through something. I mean, I do remember a couple of people, like, really off-the-cuff stuff that was just, "Well, just get him in a seat. Like, yeah, sometimes my kid doesn't want to go to school. You just get him in the car and go." I'm like, "Do you even want to know what it looks like to carry a kid that size kicking and screaming and scratching at 7:30 in the morning, holding him down, and putting him in his car seat? Like, just really think about what that means." And I did actually say that to someone one time, and he was like, "Oh, yeah, right. That doesn't work so well." Because I think that for some people, when they would hear it, they'd be like, "Yeah, my kid complains about school too." And we're like, "This isn't complaining about school. This is DEFCON 5."Meg: Yeah. Fight or flight, yeah.Gretchen: So, I wonder if we can go back to the outreach for a minute, because I feel like that's a place where families usually get stuck. They don't know where to go or who to turn to or how to figure out what's the root cause for the refusal. So, how did you figure that out? What did you do?Erin: Well, we were trying to really approach it a couple of different ways. One of them is we did hear from his teachers, and he was having some academic challenges. So we did in the spring go down what did feel like a rabbit hole of trying to pursue testing through the district and get approved for the IEP. So, we wanted to make sure that he was going to get the support he needed academically. And we did finally connect with a therapist for him. We did also talk to our pediatrician, who was incredibly supportive, and we started him over the summer on a medication. That was a really hard decision to make, but it feels like it really has helped to get him where he needed to be, to be able to identify, "I'm having a lot of worry about this. And now I can actually talk about it instead of hide under the bed."Gretchen: So, Amanda, it seems what we're hearing from Meg and Erin is that their son was having a hard time going to school because, well, first of all, there was a transition to a more structured school day, and that was kind of daunting for him. And maybe he was feeling a little bit bad about things because he had some undiagnosed learning challenges. And on top of it all, you've got the anxieties of COVID. That certainly could not have helped. What are some other reasons why a child may be refusing to go to school?Amanda: There are tons of them, right? So there are a ton of reasons. Um, anxiety is a big one. Sometimes it's separation anxiety. Kids are worried about leaving their parents behind, or they're worried what's going to happen during the day when they're not around, right? They're worried about what might happen to their parents. Sometimes it's anxiety about what's coming next at school, especially, like, in certain times of year, things change up a little bit in school and kids are worried about what's happening next. And a lot of times it's tied to they're having trouble with something, right? So, kids may not want to go to school because they know they have reading that day and reading is really hard for them, or that math class is coming up and they really don't want to go to school because they don't feel comfortable in math class. Or sometimes it's about friends, or not having friends, and the social groups change and they feel really lonely. And those are the kinds of things that make it really hard for kids to go to school. When they're not feeling good about themselves — when they're feeling like there's something that they can't handle at school — is when you often see school refusal.Amanda: So is he in school this year?Erin: Yeah, he is.Amanda: Tell us how that happened.Meg: Yeah, well, he has gone almost every day, minus him getting a small cold and we had to keep him home, but he's doing it, which is like such a win.Erin: Well, we spent the summer, like, consciously about recovery. Like, we didn't sign up for camps, and we spent a lot of time really just, like, being home and regrouping. And then for us, just finally being able to talk to other parents who have been through it. And I think it's partly that it's a whole new year, I think. He's in the 2–3 class, so he has the same teachers. He gets the structure of the classroom. And I think just a little bit of maturity has really helped him push through, but he's really proud of it. He's rocking it, and he knows it, and we're just really grateful that he's there. And, like, now that he's there, we kind of feel like, "Wow, that was really hard." It was really, really hard when he got sick this year and had to stay home a few days, I felt my own sort of, uh —Meg: "Is this gonna set us back?"Erin: I felt my own worries about, like, "Is he gonna be like out of the groove again?"Amanda: I so relate to hearing the like, "And when he stayed home again, you had this, 'Uh-oh, uh-oh.'"Meg: Yeah. Our daughter will say, "Oh, I don't want to go to school." And it's instant, that phrase "I don't want to go," you know, it just brings up so much. And you have to sort of check your own damage, your own, your own healing and say, "OK, hold on. This is totally normal. She can say that." And just work through it.Gretchen: So if you look back at those days, when you were really in the thick of it, what was the hardest part for each of you?Erin: I feel like the hardest part was just seeing him truly suffering and feeling like — he was surrounded by so much love and care. I mean, a community of friends and classmates and family that really just, we were all rooting for him. And it felt like we still couldn't, we still couldn't reach him. It felt like we still couldn't find what was going on for him to help pull him out of this place and to have it be every day. Like, this was every day, it just was so dark and sad. It was really heartbreaking to see him just so not OK. And I feel like when I think back, like you said, all of those expectations that we have, there was also a lot of guilt and, and this feeling of like, "Wow, like, why is everybody else's kid able to pull it together to get to school this year and ours can't?" Like, when I think back to some of the things I was saying to myself then, I wish I was a lot kinder to myself. But I also wish that we had really been able to hear him sooner. Because I feel like we kept pushing it. We kept trying to just drive it. Like, nope, this is what we're doing; this is what we're doing; we've got to do it. And I think he was really telling us as best as he could, "I cannot do this."Meg: One of the hardest things was seeing the effects of this day to day, ongoing. I mean, I think the last thought that at least I would have before I went to sleep was, "We're going to do this again tomorrow. It's going to be the same tomorrow. It's not going to change, you know?" And then, like, wanting to give my partner support, wanting to be there every day for her and for us, it was just really, really hard. And you know, when Erin said it was dark, it just felt dark.Amanda: Do you have advice for other families going through this similar kind of thing?Meg: I think advice was not to just not to be afraid to try new, new things. If people give you suggestions, like, don't be afraid to try them. I think that was the only thing that sort of got us through that was our willingness to just be open to ideas and support each other's ideas. So if Erin had an idea or she would change it up with, I don't know, screen time, doughnuts, I don't know, it was just about trusting and supporting that that person is just doing the very best that we can and has our son's best interest at heart.Erin: You know, I think one of the things that was helpful — hard and helpful — is that one or the other could always be the one on a particular day. Like, there were some days where I just really couldn't. I'd be making lunches, crying, and Meg would be telling him stories to talk him through each of his steps. Or some days where Meg was just, "I'm losing it, like, I cannot," and I'd be able to step in and just be there with him in whatever way he was. I think for me, I, like I said, because he's doing so much better, I feel like I've just been focused so much on having a lot more compassion for us both as a couple and how we got through that, and for our own selves.I am so aware of how much shame there was last year. And I think, for me, sharing this is really about wanting other parents to feel less shame if they're going through this. And part of that is that isolation of being there in the mornings or the night before school, feeling like your kid is the only one or you're the only one, and truly being able to connect with other parents on the other side of it. And I think that's what helps is even for other parents, where their kids are doing well, um, just not being afraid to share what you're going through. You need your village; you need your tribe to hold the hard time that you're going through so that you can be as centered as you can to be there for your kiddo who's going through something so hard. And I think it took us a while to be able to reach out and really get the care that we were needing so that we could really be there for him in the way he was needing.Amanda: Erin and Meg, just thank you so much for sharing your story with us and for helping to, to break down that shame.Gretchen: Yes. Thank you so much for being so honest with us. We really appreciate it.Erin: Absolutely. Thank you so much for letting us.Amanda: So before we go today, I wanted to tell you about a new show in our Understood Podcast Network. It's called "The Opportunity Gap," and it's hosted by Julian Saavedra and Marissa Wallace. Julian is a Black parent and an assistant principal in an urban public school. Marissa is a special education teacher with a multiracial child. And it's a podcast for families like Julian's and Marissa's to talk about kids of color with learning and thinking differences. And they really explore those inequities that may be happening in certain situations. So I would totally encourage you to listen as Julian and Marissa explore those issues of privilege, race, identity, and talk about the ways parents can advocate for their kids. Again, that show is called "The Opportunity Gap." Gretchen, have you been listening to it?Gretchen: I have been listening to it, and it's fabulous.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: Maybe you have your own story about school refusal that you'd like to share with us.Gretchen: We want to hear it. So leave us a message at 646-616-1213, extension 703. That number again is 646-616-1213, extension 703. And we might just share it on a future episode.Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/init to find resources from every episode.Gretchen: That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash in it. And please share your thoughts. Email us at init@understood.org. We'd really love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are production directors. Also, this week I'd like to add a special thanks to Max MacKenzie for being in the podcast booth with me. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.
How to help your child manage back-to-school anxiety
Going back to school can be a stressful time for kids and families. There may be big changes like switching to a new school or having more than one teacher. Kids who learn and think differently can be particularly anxious about keeping up or fitting in.If your child is anxious or worried leading up to the start of school, these tips can help.Talk about the transitionIt’s important for your child to know you’re there to listen and help problem-solve. Find a time to talk when your child is relatively calm. (Avoid times such as when your child is upset or getting ready for school.) Here are some things you can say.“Let’s think of ways I can help make going back easier for you.” For example, you might pack a special snack or walk your child to the classroom (if allowed) on the first few days. But make it clear that staying home from school just because your child doesn’t want to go isn’t an option.“What do you like about school?” Talk about good memories from previous years. Highlight these positive moments and use them as a reminder that school can be rewarding and fun.“Is there anything in particular about this school year that’s worrying you?” Is your child anxious about keeping up? Getting along with teachers? Making friends? Getting bullied? Talking about your child’s specific concerns can help you find specific solutions.“I see that you’re anxious about school. But I believe in you and I’m here to help.” Projecting a sense of confidence and understanding may seem like a small thing. But when kids know that you know what they’re going through, it can make a big difference.Don’t react to tantrumsSometimes, anxiety can lead to angry outbursts. If your child has a tantrum about going back to school, try to stay calm and avoid getting angry or upset. This can be hard to do in the moment, but it makes a huge difference. Tantrums are an attention-seeking behavior. It’s best to ignore them, then praise your child when you see calmer behavior. Later, ask when would be a good time to talk about why your child was upset.Start switching into school mode earlyWaiting until the last minute to change schedules and routines can make some kids feel more anxious, not less. Start the process before the school year begins. Practice morning and evening routines. Move to a school-year schedule in advance (ideally a few weeks early, but no less than one week). That includes school wake-up times, bedtimes, and mealtimes.Get everything in order ahead of time. Gather needed school supplies at least one week before school starts. Work on organizing your child’s backpack. And get to know the class schedule if you have it.Give your child choices. Have your child pick out what to wear on the first day of school. Or have your child choose a favorite meal for dinner for that night. Having a choice gives kids a sense of control and excitement about school. (With younger kids, you can pick out a few options and let them decide.)Reach out to others for support. Try to set up a time for your child and a classmate to play before the school year starts. It’s a good opportunity for you, too. Talking with other families about their own back-to-school struggles and successes is a reminder that you’re not alone.Talking with your child and taking steps to ease concerns can smooth the transition back to school. But if these strategies don’t help, keep an eye on what you’re seeing. You can use an anxiety log to take notes. The notes will come in handy if you decide to reach out to someone, like a health care professional, for help.Learn about the signs of anxiety and the difference between stress and anxiety.
The Opportunity GapTrauma, learning differences, and kids of color
Learn about trauma and how it impacts kids of color with learning and thinking differences. Get tips on how to help kids after a traumatic event. Societal trauma, like school shootings and racial injustice, have become all too commonplace in our kids’ lives. It’s tough for families to help any child process the feelings that come along with these traumatic events. And it can be extra challenging for families of kids of color with learning and thinking differences like ADHD. In this episode of The Opportunity Gap, we explore trauma: its causes, how to identify it, and how it impacts us. Listen as Dr. Kristin Carothers, a clinical psychologist, explains:How trauma shows up in kids’ behaviorSupports for parents and educators of kids of colorTips for talking to your child Related resourcesHow to have hard but necessary conversations with your childLearn how scary news can impact kids who learn and think differentlyThe National Child Traumatic Stress NetworkEpisode transcriptJulian: Hi, everyone. It's Julian. Before we begin the episode, I wanted to let you all know that my guest, Dr. Kristin Carothers, and I talked about trauma and how events like gun violence and school shootings can impact kids in more ways than we think. I hope you all enjoy our vulnerable and transparent conversation.From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. But there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child.My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host.Welcome back, listeners. Today, we're going to be exploring trauma — its causes, how to identify it, and how it impacts all of us, especially kids with learning and thinking differences and parenting adults. Trauma has become all too commonplace in our lives and in our kids' lives. Trauma impacts all of us, and there are many forms of it that one may experience in their lifetime.There's forms of trauma that can include loss of a loved one, a tough divorce between caregivers, even an abusive living environment. Not to mention the forms of trauma we witness in the world like racial injustices, school shootings, and other violent acts. It feels nearly impossible for many of us to process these emotions of anger, grief, and anxiety. It's even harder for kids who learn and think differently.Today's episode is a great opportunity for us to shine light on the impact of trauma and identify ways we can help one another together. To help me get into this, I want to reintroduce — she's an OG to the OG — Kristin Carothers. Kristin is a clinical psychologist who's returning to "The Opportunity Gap" after doing a great episode with us last season on ADHD parenting tips. Welcome back to the show, Kristin. We're so glad you could join us.Kristin: Thank you so much for having me, Julian. I'm really happy to be here.Julian: Of course. Of course. Welcome back. Welcome back. I'm excited to kind of talk through something that is a necessary conversation. And I believe there's a necessity in being able to understand trauma and work through it.You know, as I was thinking about our conversation today, I started processing my own experiences with trauma. I haven't actually talked about this yet openly, so I want to put it out to the listeners that, as you know, I'm an assistant principal at a comprehensive high school in Philadelphia. Last fall, there was a school shooting that occurred right outside of our building. We had five students who were shot, and one of them lost their life. It was a national news story.The aftermath of being a leader in this environment has been absolutely overwhelming. Meeting with the parents, working with the student who was a victim of the shooting, working through all the different things that occurred, to just deal with all the stress that came from trying to navigate all that. And so obviously, it saddens me that not only did my students experience this, but the adults working with the students also had to deal with that.And so when we think about the idea of trauma, I can only imagine that so many of my students, especially those with learning and thinking differences, are feeling it. For somebody that learns and thinks differently, how does trauma impact them? How does it show up in their behavior?Kristin: I'm really sorry that happened. So, Julian, I know you want me to answer the question, but I want to take a minute to acknowledge you and your experience. And the process is called vicarious traumatization. Vicarious means you don't have to be present to feel the same effects of the traumatic stress. You could be someone who witnessed. You could be someone who was close to somebody who the trauma impacted. You could experience vicarious traumatization from constant like news exposure when there are traumatic events that occur.But for educators specifically, what happens is you are tasked with playing multiple roles. And in being tasked with playing multiple roles, the burden of stress can be just even heavier, right? So for, I think, first parents and educators, have to make sure you're putting the mask on for yourself, and that you're aware that you're having symptoms.Because for a kid with learning and thinking differences, yes, they're going to have struggles processing what's happened. But they really need the adults around them to be able to be in a position where they are stable, where they are cared for, where they're breathing, so they can help them breathe. I think when we're thinking about kids with learning differences, one of the things to remember is that these kids may be struggling with trying to filter out important information from extraneous information, or just things that are happening in their environment where it may feel as if they're just getting hit with one thing after another.And the demands on their attention or the demands on their ability to cope with stress can be taxed. It can get to a point where it feels like too much, even for people who don't have learning differences. And so what we really want to be aware of is how are they processing or understanding what happened? What are they doing behaviorally in attempts to manage their experience?So if a kid has ADHD or kid has anxiety or depression, they may be trying to avoid reminders. And in their avoidance, you may see an increase in behavioral symptoms — acting out. You may notice that they're talking more. Or other kids might withdraw. And so it's just important to know that we may need to slow things down. It may not be the time to process the trauma right after the trauma's occur. Routine is important, but it may be that there's a modify routine to give kids an opportunity to recalibrate into grief.Julian: Before the event occurred, we still had a large amount of students who had experienced traumatic events. A lot of the things I describe, whether it be gun violence, whether it be extreme poverty, whether it be that racialized trauma that comes with being part of a marginalized group. And we saw a lot of that. And we still see a lot of that come out in the ways you describe, whether it be kids walking the halls aimlessly. Right? They just are kind of wandering.Kids who blow up really fast for something that's a small thing — or what we deem small — they blow up. They go 0 to 100 really fast. So it's kids who are already have experienced this day to day in their own personal lives. Now, this breach of this safe space, it doubles down on it. And with the population that has a lot of learning and thinking differences, we see that deeply even now, right? Like we're deep in it. This was back in the fall, but we're still deep in, trying to unpack a lot of that.So I appreciate how you're describing how the adults also live vicariously through some of that trauma, and how we as the adults have to really make sure we take care of ourselves so that we can help assist our students.Kristin: Because you just said something. You said this happened in the fall, but we're really unpacking it now. And that's one of the things that happens with trauma. So with trauma, the impacts of the traumatic stressor may not necessarily be felt immediately after. There are some things that happen immediately, right? There's a child whose life was lost. That child is no longer there. That grief happens, right? There's five kids who are shot. Right? So physically they're having some issues.But in terms of like the things that may happen cognitively, for some people you may not see that for three to six months. And typically when we diagnose a post-traumatic stress disorder, we're not giving that diagnoses until three to six months post the event. So the fact that you've got kids who are presenting now is pretty typical, right?That first period right after the event occurs is called the acute stress period. And that's when we think, OK, this has happened within the last two to three weeks or within the last few months, and a person is really struggling. And that we think of as normative stress, and we hope that over time it'll balance out. Well, for some people, those symptoms get even stronger or more difficult to deal with as you go further away from the time of the trauma.So when you talked about kids walking the hallway, kids not being focused. It could be that some of those children who are dealing with what we call complex trauma, meaning they've experienced multiple traumatic stressors at a time, they may be actively re-experiencing aspects of the traumatic experiences they faced as a result of some trigger, or just when their minds wander.Julian: And I appreciate that a lot of the things you're saying are things that our parents listening have probably seen, especially the intersection of trauma and learning and thinking differences is starting to sound familiar. Let's move on to this idea of that intersection between trauma and learning and thinking differences.Processing and treating trauma can be challenging for any child. And parents may wonder, where do you start when helping their child manage trauma? Like, what do you do when you start to try to embark on this journey of unpacking and managing it?Kristin: OK, I'm going to start with the supports. So when a school community, family, group has experienced a trauma and they're really concerned about how to get kids the supports they need, whether or not those kids have learning or thinking differences, the best resource is the National Child Traumatic Stress Network.The National Child Traumatic Stress Network has done — has funded research from schools across the country. They provide evidence-based resources for supporting school communities, kids, parents. They provide resources in multiple languages and formats. So we know for kids with learning and thinking differences, it's really important that information is not just presented in a written form, but that there are also visuals, that there are also things that you can hear, right?And most importantly for the adults in the situation, NCTSN gives you the language to use when discussing traumatic stressors with kids. Right? They give you steps, processes that you can use to try to recover from a traumatic experience. Right? If you're a parent and you have a child with learning and thinking differences, and you're really struggling about how to get them that information that you know they need, National Child Traumatic Stress Network is gold standard.Julian: OK. So you start there, you go on the website, you find the resources that you need. But maybe you're also trying to find the therapist. And again, going back to my own experience, I know that, yes, therapy is restricted. It's an income-restrictive situation. It may be an insurance situation, where your insurance does not cover that type of therapy. Or you may not have insurance to even be able to get a therapist. And when you do find a therapist, there might be a waiting list that's three to nine or twelve months long.And so I'm wondering, is there another avenue to go to? Can school psychologists provide this type of therapy? Are there other ways where schools can provide access to therapy?Kristin: OK That's an excellent question. I really like the aknowledgement that access to therapy is restricted often for communities where there are not financial resources to go through like a private practice route, or where there's just the resources are overtaxed. So the community mental health centers are full. All the therapist who accept insurance are full.In terms of resources, there are two programs: Cognitive Behavioral Intervention for Trauma in Schools, which was created in California. It's also known as the CBITS program. And then trauma-focused cognitive behavioral therapy. Those are two evidence-based models that are implemented often in school and community organizations.What the program does is first teach basic coping skills to manage any symptoms. So we get active coping skills. Those are the skills that we use when we're in control or when we could problem-solve, right? We can cope actively, because we could have some control over the situation. And then we've got adaptive coping strategies. And what happens with trauma treatment is we typically focus on adaptive coping strategies first.School psychologists may not be in the position to administer these interventions because of the load, the burden that they're under to do testing, to do evaluation, to get kids IEPs, individual education plans. That's really the role of school psychologists in most school settings. What I've typically found is that guidance counselors, teaching staff are great people to do CBITS intervention. Social workers who are in the school are typically joint case management, just making sure basic needs are met.So we've got a family whose child is killed. How can we make sure that this family has the resources they need to just take care of their basic daily living needs? Then can we refer them for therapy? But first we got to just take care of their basic needs. They've lost a child. When you're in a situation where you can't find support, one of the things that I've found helpful is to reach back to those organizations that have done a lot of the work and provide free resources online. OK?So when it comes to learning and thinking differences for me, when I teach, I'm telling the psychiatry fellows that I work with, you send those parents to Understood.org. They will explain what an IEP is. They will help them to write letters to request an IEP. They will explain what learning and thinking differences are. I do the same thing when I'm talking to families who aren't able to access a therapist necessarily, saying, check out ChildMind.org. They provide lots of information on lots of different issues that children and families may face.In my experience, when you live in rural communities, you may not have access to lots of different resources in terms of community mental health. And when you live in urban communities, you often face the same challenges. What I typically recommend is finding the academic medical center. What is the hospital in your region or area that is also a training hospital? That place will usually have a resource for behavioral health.The waiting list may be long. Get on it. Time is going to pass anyway. They tell you we don't have any appointments until October. That's cool. Put me down. You keep calling back. Somebody is going to cancel an appointment. Somebody is not going to show up. If that doesn't happen, October will be there. And guess what? Your traumatic experience that you faced will still be there as well. OK? It is never too late. There is not an expiration date on traumatic experiences.Julian: And I think that a lot of this boils down to the idea of trust, where I know when we talked before with families of color trying to manage ADHD and learning and thinking differences, and understanding the process of getting resources, it boiled down to finding somebody that you trust that can help you navigate the experience. And so I think that I always, always recommend for any of our families, and especially after dealing with this event, if you're struggling to find the services you need, ask questions. Find somebody that you trust in that building and ask questions.You know the buzzword of trauma-informed education. Tell me about your trauma-informed education program in school. Tell me what resources you have available at school. I'm an assistant principal. If a parent comes to me and ask me that question, I've got to have an answer. And I got to make sure that I can speak to what are we providing, given the fact that is something that schools are supposed to provide.When we're thinking about the intersection of learning and thinking differences, especially ADHD, a lot of the things that I describe the — hallway walking, the going 0 to 100, the gazed-out looks, the triggers, the fidgeting behavior, the tears, like just all these different things. Some of those can also be symptoms or a way that ADHD manifests itself in children, too. Sometimes they look very similar, right? The symptoms of trauma, the symptoms of ADHD might look the same.If I'm a parent and I'm a parenting adult, and my child is either getting misdiagnosed and saying these are symptoms of ADHD, and I know that this is because of trauma, or my child has experienced trauma, but they're saying this is ADHD instead, how do I make sure that my child is getting what they need? What should I do? How do I approach that?Kristin: I love this advocacy question. You, as a parent, are the expert on your child, right? Always. You may not know how to treat your child medically, but you are the expert on your child. The — what we're looking for is a change in behavior that is distinct. With ADHD, previous versions of our "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual," we needed to see symptoms before age 6. With the revision of the manual. Now we see symptoms before age 12.But what I want to really point out to parents is that we are looking for changes in behaviors that are consistent across settings: school, home, social, right? If you've got a kid who up until a certain point has been doing well in school, has been following through with requests at home, things are going well at home. Socially, they're not having any issues. And all of a sudden, boom, you're noticing a shift? In my opinion, something has happened.Or if you're a parent and you know that something has happened, and that your child's behavior prior to that experience was very different, then your job is to advocate for your child. And sometimes it takes getting a second opinion when the first person won't listen.You want to make sure that when you're going for diagnostic assessment, people are actually using measures to diagnose. What's a measure? A survey, a questionnaire. Are they getting information from multiple raters? Have they asked to speak to your child's teacher? Have they asked to speak to both parents or whoever the caregivers are? Have they asked your child to independently rate their symptoms? Having multiple raters of information lets know whether or not these behaviors are consistent, or whether or not there's been some change at some point in time.We know that in certain communities there tends to be an overreliance on certain diagnoses. Right? And so we want to make sure that when we're going to treatment providers, these are providers who are aware of contextual issues that might be impacting your family. So is the provider listening and taking into account that you said, "My child witnessed a murder two years ago. Since that time, they've really struggled in school. They haven't been able to sit still. Prior to that point, we did not have these issues." Right? Context is everything.Now, if you should happen to work with someone, and you get a diagnosis or you get some prescriptions or some things that don't seem right to you, you always go for a second opinion. It's the same thing you would do if you were having a physical health problem and somebody was proposing this diagnosis or this major treatment course and you weren't sure about it. It is OK to get a second opinion. Now, in our case, it might take you a little while because it's hard to find people in the first place. But your goal is to make sure that you are getting the treatment that's indicated for your child — especially if your child has a learning and thinking difference.Julian: So again, when I think about my own experience as an assistant principal dealing with this life changing situation, like life-changing for the students, life-changing for the faculty, life-changing for me as a leader trying to lead through this situation. And at the end of the day, I think about my own children and the nervousness I had with just making sure I got home to them myself.And so since it happened, I've been working alongside our guidance counselors, our social workers, different people from around the city, to support — not only to make sure that the space is safe for our students and physically safe. We've had safety upgrades. We've had a lot of different building external things done. But also emotionally safe, spiritually safe. But also to provide a place where they can talk and they can express what they're feeling. And I say all that because as the expert, I'm very interested from your perspective, what are some concrete tips that you can give to parenting adults about helping their child deal with trauma?Kristin: So I am also a parent. I also have vicarious trauma as related to gun violence. I would say as a parent and as a professional, the advice I would like to give to other parents is to be sure to acknowledge the fact that this awful thing happened, acknowledged that it was so stressful and it was so hard and it was so scary. Allow your children to talk openly about how they felt. You've got to be able to hold that, though. You've got to be able to manage your own moods and emotions while your children share their moods and emotions with you.And so in order to do that, you really have to know how you feel. Process with your friends and other adults first, and then be ready to go in there and get with your kids. The second thing I would say as a professional and as a parent, the parents have to be ready for is the fact that they may their children may display some regressed behaviors.For little kids, they may wet the bed. They may start having nightmares and not want to sleep alone. Older kids may be really irritable. Older kids may start to not follow through with directions or rules or things that they typically would do. You might see them to stop doing, right? We want to be on the lookout for changes in behavior — using alcohol, smoking marijuana or using other drugs. These things happen, younger and younger.And so we want you to be open with your kids about the fact that what happened was awful. Want to be open with your kids about the fact that they can come to you to talk about it. And we want to let kids know that when they feel this way, they don't have to turn to something to make them numb.Often it's like we don't want to feel anything because we felt so hurt. So let's just escape. Escape actually makes anxiety even worse till it gets to the point where you are so uncomfortable with feeling that you don't know how to just feel and be OK with discomfort.I really think — I was talking to one of my clients today about attachment. Parents, it's your job to be a secure base for your kids in these times. A secure base is someone who is consistent and available. Think: you, as a parent, you are supposed to be that secure base for your kids. That stoop is always there. That tree is not falling down. We know what the rules are when we get back to the secure base. If I'm — no matter what the world is presenting me with, I'm safe here. My parent can handle my difficult emotions. My parent isn't triggered by my experience. Secure, warm, consistent. That's what your kids need. They need at least one adult who can do that for them. If it's not you, then you have to find somebody who can do that for them.Julian: Now, in a perfect world, we would have parents who are comfortable doing all that, right? We would have people that are all good to do that. But we know that there's a bunch of situations that happen, whether it be parents that are dealing with their own trauma themselves, or parenting adults that may not have the relationship or the ability to feel comfortable enough to have this conversation with their children.So let me ask, what about the folks that are not comfortable doing that? Where do we start? What do they do to get to that point where they can be that home base, as you say?Kristin: I think we have got to get comfortable with asking for help. We are constantly telling kids, especially kids with learning and thinking differences, they've got to learn to speak up for themselves, empowering them. We want them to be empowered. We want them to be empowered.But you as a parent have to model being empowered. Being empowered is knowing how to assert yourself in a situation even when you don't know what you need. So if you as a parent are like "I am not warm and fuzzy, I cannot do this. I can't tolerate my kid having this discussion." The least you can do is think who in our circle can do this? Who can help me? It is OK to ask for help.And it may not be a professional right away. It might be a family member. It might be a close friend. It might be the parent of one of the other kids. But you've got to be willing to say something, right? If you are so closed off and so scared that you're not willing to open your mouth and ask for help, how can anything get better? You as a parent have to take a risk to put yourself out there, because this could be life or death, right?Julian: And I will say that one thing about our community in general, African American communities specifically, we do a great job of finding folks to talk to. And it might not be in the formalized setting. It might be playing cards, it might be at the barbershop, it might be at the hair salon, it might be at church, it might be on the stoop, it might be somewhere.But I love the idea of saying "I need to find somebody to talk to." And once those feelings start to come out, then it may be the next step of saying, "I need to go and find some more professional help." But modeling modeling that with and in front of your children is paramount.Kristin: I appreciate that you are having direct conversations with students with learning and thinking differences about the fact that as they mature and go out into the world, having this learning and thinking difference does not have to be problematic for them. Right?Julian: And I would say the same exact thing for those of us that have experienced traumatic events and the idea that this is part of who you are. It makes it — we're the sum of our experiences. And making sure that we understand that there are ways that we can find support, there are ways that we can speak up to advocate for what we need, but ultimately to find the folks that are going to be out there to help you.Before we go, I want to share some really helpful resources from Understood that you find in our show notes. The first is an article that breaks down how to have those hard but necessary conversations. The second is an article that explains the impact of scary news on kids with learning and thinking differences. The third is a resource Dr. Carothers herself shared with us, the National Child Traumatic Stress Network. Please check these out.And remember, we can't always control life's experiences, but we can choose how we show up for one another. I appreciate all of you for listening. Dr. Carothers, I really appreciate you. Thank you so much.Kristin: Thank you so much, Julian. And I appreciate the opportunity.Julian: You've been listening to "The Opportunity Gap" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Is there a topic you'd like us to cover? We want to hear from you. Email us at OpportunityGap@understood.org.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks and edited by Cin Pim. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
The best way to ease the back-to-school transition
Getting kids ready to go back to school is not always an easy task. And when you think about it, why would it be? Back-to-school transitions can be really tough for kids. And chances are this upcoming school year will be even tougher. For many kids, going back to school will mean going back to the classroom for the first time since the pandemic began.Starting a new school year can be scary, especially if kids haven’t been in a school building for a long time. But the key is to help make this transition smooth and gentle. If you’re not feeling prepared for the upcoming school year, don’t panic. Don’t lose hope. I’ve shared lots of ideas with families and teachers over the years. Here are some of the suggestions they’ve found most helpful:Keep the summer fun going. Plan at least one activity for the first week of school.Allow more downtime with the TV or computer after school than you usually will during the school year. Then gradually reduce or eliminate screen time once school really gets underway.Keep the schedule clear. Try not to make any extra plans or appointments for the first two weeks of school, so kids can relax after school.Be present as much as possible for at least the first week. This way you can set up school-day routines gradually instead of all at once.Let kids stay up a little later the first week of school. In the second and third weeks, begin moving to an earlier sleep schedule.Stress the importance of breakfast. Eating before school will give kids energy to start their day.Returning to school can be exciting, stressful, and exhausting all at the same time. Some kids might need a little more time to adjust. If getting back into the school groove isn’t working out well, tackle things gradually. Keep some of the summer fun alive and give enough downtime.Are you a parent or caregiver looking for more? Update teachers on how distance learning impacted your child. Try these back-to-school downloads to help start the year off right.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia is why this production manager is so good
Dyslexia helped him find his strengths — like thinking ahead. Frank Imperiale explains why he excels as a production manager for live events and concerts.As a child with dyslexia, Frank Imperiale always had to think 10 steps ahead to account for his reading challenges and anxiety. Today, thinking ahead is a skill that’s served him well in his career as a production manager for live events. His impressive list of credits includes the NYC Marathon, comedy shows, concerts, and more. Get Frank’s advice on how to turn your learning and thinking differences into strengths. And hear what Whoopi Goldberg, who also has dyslexia, once shared with Frank backstage. Listen in. Then:Watch a video about a jeweler with dyslexia who found his strengths.Check out Whoopi Goldberg and a dozen other Oscar winners with dyslexia.Episode transcriptAnnouncer: On the Understood Podcast Network, there's a podcast for everyone. Find your new favorite today at u.org/podcasts.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Frank Imperiale is a production manager for live events. His credits include the New York City Marathon, comedy shows, political debates, and concerts with stars like Whoopi Goldberg and T-Pain. He's an expert in audio-visual technology, and he has dyslexia. Welcome to the show, Frank. Frank: Thanks for having me. Eleni: So as part of your work on live events, you're an expert in audio and sound. So was sound always your thing, or do you have a story of what you were into as a kid and where it all began? Frank: Yeah, it's kind of funny. I was the little toddler running around the theater because your teacher didn't have a babysitter. My dad, he used to do kind of high school dramas and that situation. And I was just always around theater sound and lighting, and it was something to keep me busy. And instead of me just sitting there or playing games, I was like, how does that work? And that's how my mind kind of works a lot, is I just want to know how things work and why. So I started getting involved with it and I stuck with it.Eleni: So Frank, I would love for you to describe how dyslexia shows up for you. Frank: My version of dyslexia is I definitely have issues with sounding out names. Words and spelling are just not my forte at all. And then a big problem is when I read, I just get line convergence. So I can read the same line five times and not realize it until I'm like, wait, did I read this? And it happens constantly. And still to this day it does. And you know, I learned tricks. I put a piece of paper under it to try to keep me on track. And it works, but it's still there. And it's never going away. It's just, I know how to deal with it now. Eleni: When I heard that you are an audio and sound person or that you've gravitated towards audio, that kind of made sense to me because I often imagine if you have dyslexia, perhaps like reading might be a challenge, so you might lean into other things. But I was wondering if that is a fair assumption to kind of think, oh yeah, like having dyslexia means that you're more into audio. Like, is that actually true for you? Frank: I don't think so. I mean, audio? Yes, it does help. Yes. I've listened to a million books on tape. Podcasts are the same for me. Like, I'll get a lot of information from that versus reading from a book. For me, when I have to read, it's usually manuals or instructions, that kind of thing, or something that I'm really interested in. But when I was in school reading, no, no, thank you. I'm good. Cliff Notes, please. Cliff Notes helped me so much. And most of it was, I would try to find audiobook versions of everything and listen to it. So maybe subconsciously it was built in for audio. But I think it's more of just the adventure of it. I don't think I can ever do like a nine-to-five office job. It's just something that I'm not built for. Eleni: Yeah. So as you said, it's more interesting because you don't really know what's going to come up day-to-day. What do you think it is about audio that makes a good fit for you?Frank: When I was a little kid, it came easy to me. I was very good with technology, and I have that kind of brain for technology. So it fit and then it was something I did and I enjoyed. And then I moved on farther. And then in high school they found out, oh, actually this kid knows what he's doing, so great. We'll give him even more. And then when I went to college, I was like, I'm not going to go to school for theater because I know what I need to know. So I said, let me dabble in television. And I went for broadcasting, and TV added to my toolbox we would say in the communications world. It just kept adding to that toolbox of what I know, but I kind of fell back into that live event.And maybe it's the adrenaline, maybe it's the crowd that there's kind of this feeling that you get from an audience. I kind of noticed a lot, even as a technician, it's not just being on stage, but you can just feel it from them. And it was missing in television and things like that. Eleni: What I'm hearing is that it's more about the environment and the setting and like the thrill of live events, as opposed to like day-to-day tasks that you do around audio and visual.Frank: Yeah. I think it's just like, there's an end product. There's something you can see, and every time it's different, but you're doing the same thing. You're moving levers, you're tweaking knobs, you're adjusting volume. That kind of thing. To me, that's the boring part. The fun part in the stuff that I do is it's organizing and managing and making sure that we complete our goals and get across the line. So that way we can have that performance. Eleni: I want to talk a little bit about like how dyslexia shows up for you at work. Have any challenges come up in the work that you do, or is it more so that you've found a role where you're not really impacted day to day by the challenges associated with dyslexia.Frank: I don't know. I feel like now I've grown to be able to compensate in a lot of areas. Like there's still the sending of the emails and reading it like five times and reading it out loud. And is this the right word and googling that to make sure that it's perfect and right, because I'm always thinking that it's going to be wrong. So that's a big problem. But otherwise I feel like because I have dyslexia and because I've figured out ways to compensate, maybe, it's those skills that I bring to the table that a lot of other people can't: the multitasking and the thinking, the thinking way ahead to avoid potential problems. It just happens now.Eleni: What is it about dyslexia that makes you good at thinking ahead? Frank: It came from when I was in school. I had a whole bunch of anxiety. I mean, sick every day before I go to school, because I didn't know what was going to happen. And the big thing was trying to control that feeling and making sure that I could figure out what was going to happen and anticipating that. So I think, OK, well, what are we doing in class? What could happen? Is there a potential chance for like a pop quiz? Well, what would be on that quiz? How can I study for that? And all that would process for every class. And then depending on how the day was going, it would change. And I would just think constantly about what's going to happen next in English class when you're sitting in class and we have to all read in class. Dreadful, dreadful experience. And I would be constantly monitoring and calculating. All right, well, this person's reading this paragraph. There's five people in front of me and then you count down and then of course you have the one kid that decides they want to read too. And then all of a sudden that changes and you have to reevaluate. And then it would be like, OK, one, can I say, "Hey, I got to go to the bathroom." So they skip over me. That's another opportunity to do that. So it was always that process of calculating. And I think it's more now that I do it and I don't even realize I do it.Eleni: Where you're anticipating?Frank: That I just anticipate all the problems, even like the smallest thing possible. And it's the same thing. Like people laugh at me when I'm at work, because I always say, oh, hang on, I got it in my car. And they're like, why do you have all this stuff in your car? Like, why do you have extra tools and all of this and timeline and whatever it is. And I got it in my car because I don't want to be unprepared and I don't want to be stopped.Eleni: You said that you always had to feel really prepared when you went to school. It sounds like there was a little bit of anxiety that showed up. In what ways did that anxiety show up for you day to day? Frank: School was horrible until probably about my junior year. But before that, I would literally throw up every morning to the point where I would even make sure that I had something in case I was on the bus and I got sick. It wasn't carsick. It was purely anxiety because I didn't know what was going to happen that day. Eleni: Wow. That's so intense. Frank: It was. And it sometimes comes up now, too, surprisingly, that it's still at work. Sometimes I'll get that same feeling. Eleni: It's really interesting to hear how two things that maybe you wouldn't necessarily associate as being related — I wouldn't necessarily think, oh, because you have dyslexia you're really good at thinking ahead and planning. But I can see now, like after you've explained it, how those two things can relate to each other. Frank: Yeah, it was the only way that I figured out how to survive. And that was a big thing. My mom was really a big fan of figuring out what works for you. Yes, it's a learning difference and it's true: I learn differently. So I needed to figure out the way that I was going to fit in to what I was given. And the anticipation was the only way I could figure it out. Eleni: I've heard a lot through interviews I've done with people. it actually becomes easier when you focus your energy on your strengths and maybe the things that you can change as opposed to either dwelling on challenges or like things that can't change, or like maybe accepting that there are certain things where you can't fit into that box. And that's actually OK. Frank: Oh, absolutely. My motto is "I'm not doing brain surgery." And that is what I tell everyone. I mean, I deal with clients and they think that it's the end of the world if something doesn't happen or if a cue's late or something like that. And I literally say one, no one's probably going to know. Because they don't know the show or they don't know the performance. And two, it's OK. You can't sweat the small stuff. You can't dwell on the past. And I think that's part of my anticipation. I can't dwell on the past because I got to keep going. Like, I don't have time to complain about, oh, we should have, or we could have. There's just no time for it. You've got to keep going and keep moving forward. Eleni: It's interesting that you bring up the audience won't necessarily be able to pick up on if there's a mistake a lot of the time. I often will attend concerts and events and you know, I'll be blown away by the light effects, especially if it's coordinated with sound. I'm like, how do they do that? Can you give us like a peek into how the magic happens? Frank: Honestly, how it works a lot of the times is it's just, you do the same show over and over. I ran what a lot of people term as a roadhouse. What would happen is about seven in the morning or so two tractor trailers would probably back in, and we would unload them and basically set up their sound, their lighting, their set, whatever they had for the performance. Most of the time that would bring us all the way to lunch. And we'd come back. We'd focus some lights and keep moving forward. And then we get to the showtime. And half the crew, all of my staff, which could have been anywhere from 10 to 50 people, had never seen the show, didn't know what was going on. And so they have a stage manager. And the stage manager says, OK, do that. And then we just listen to them and we're almost in a sense trained professionals that we know our operation and what we have to do. And there's some lead person that gives them the command. Now, sometimes that fails miserably and sometimes it doesn't. I can't tell you how many times you just have to fly by the seat of your pants.Eleni: Do you have any crazy stories you can share of things that have gone wrong?Frank: One of the funniest times was we were trying to load out a show because once the show is done, we then take everything and pack it back up and put it on the trucks. And they leave that night. So we had one show that someone had snuck around the truck and parked in the loading dock and it's on a college campus. So they just went to go party or wherever they want. And we couldn't get the stuff on the truck. So we finally devised like a ramp and we wheeled everything on this 53-foot tractor trailer over this little tiny ramp over this car. Got it all out. And then at the end of the night, we aired out all of its tires so that way it would be stuck there for the weekend. We had to get that truck packed. It had to be, I don't know, in Connecticut the next day. But it's like, yeah, it really got under our skin. So we're going to get a little bit back on them. And then, I mean, there's been simple things, like all of a sudden, company I worked for, their truck driver got injured and they need someone to drive their truck. And next thing you know, I'm a truck driver for the day. And I think that's why I do like the line of work I'm in. Because one day I'm a sound guy. One day I'm lighting guy, one day I do video. And the other day I'm a truck driver. Eleni: Well, it sounds like you wear many hats. But you're also in a managerial role at these live events, right?Frank: I mean, the management role is a little different and weird because I'm not a manager that is very hands off. I'm always like, no, I'm part of the team, I'm going to help you where I can. And when I have to step away, I have to step away because I have to do something. But yet also I'm not your typical manager again, because I just can't do one thing. And I'm also a big fan of teaching. So if I see someone doing the wrong thing, I'm not going to say no, you're doing the wrong thing. This is how I want you to do it. I explain to them why. And a lot of people start learning my process of my mind. They understand. They're like, well, why does it matter that we run the cable this way or that way? It's still getting point A to point B. Like, yes, but when you're loading out, it's going to be much easier if it goes this way, if it goes around this one piece that I know is going to be a problem. And they're like, why are you thinking about the load-out? And I was like, you always think about the load-out, because you want to get home. You want to get out of there. So again, it comes into that mind of anticipation and already solving those problems before anyone thinks of it. Eleni: Yeah. I see how that's related. So, I was told you see a lot of celebrities backstage and you once met Whoopi Goldberg, who also has dyslexia. Can you tell us that story?Frank: Whoopi was awesome. I mean, Whoopi literally, when we sat down, she came up to the stage and we were sitting and we were like, oh, you probably have about 15 minutes before we start. And she sat down and she just started talking to me and like, what are you doing in life? What are you this, what did that? And to the point where I was like, you have to go on stage now and she's like, they can wait. And we just continued to have a conversation. And it was, it was great. I was like, really? This is happening right now? Eleni: Earlier, you mentioned that you do think differently. And then now you just talked about how it's also important for you to kind of communicate how you're thinking or why you're thinking that particular way and for other people to understand that. Do you think that you have like a desire to be understood and for your thinking to be understood because it's different?Frank: I think so. I think that's a big thing. Like even the last gig I just finished was working the New York City Marathon. And we only do a small sliver of it, but that small sliver is still covering sound for 200 acres for all 30,000 people that came this year. But even that I was bouncing around doing 50 things, four sets of communication. I had two different radios, two cell phones, and everything was going off at the same time, but yet I was still also loading a truck. And people constantly ask me, I don't know how you do it. And I said, I really don't either, but I do it.But then I do try to convey a lot of why I do things and how I do them. And I want people to understand, like, I'm not like an advocate or like, oh yeah, I'm special and I'm different. No. But it does keep rearing its head that yeah, I'm dyslexic. And you know what? That's why I'm doing what I do. Eleni: Do people at work or colleagues and peers, do they know?Frank: Oh yeah, absolutely.Eleni: Do you talk about it in that way? Like, yeah, I think that that's because I'm dyslexic.Frank: It comes up. Like in conversation, I don't shy away from it. Why should I? It's nothing to be ashamed of. Even when I was a kid, like I remember when my mom wanted me to get tested. And I was kind of like, I don't want to be the dumb kid. Oh, you're the kid in special ed. You're going to resource. But that changed when I was like in high school, because no one thought of me as the dumb kid. And they're like, wait, you have resource? And then I would try to be an advocate in that case and explain it. And I think that's where I learned, don't be ashamed that you're dyslexic. It is who you are. You can research and you can find out so many like CEOs and amazing people have dyslexia. And I think it's because they're wired that way and that's why they're successful. And that's why they have that kind of drive because they've always had to do it to survive. Eleni: Yeah, there's like a little bit of a correlation there between dyslexia and entrepreneurship. Frank: And what's funny is I have no interest in running my own business. I mean, I've done it. I've been there, done it, but no thank you. I'm good. For me, that's too much. Eleni: You mentioned that when you were a kid, people would ask you why you were going to resource. And you know, you didn't really feel any shame around telling them why. Where do you think you learned that? Because it's not an easy thing. It's something that I hear people struggle with a lot, especially when they're younger. Frank: I think that ultimately came from my mom, because my mom was a big supporter. And she said, use your resources, use that as you need. Do want to look up that or study more. That's just time for you to figure out what you need.And I think that's a lot to do with why I am the way I am today, was during our, you know, IEP meetings and anything that was dealing with us, my mom made sure that we were at them. I was one of very few kids in my circle that I knew that actually went to their IEP meeting. Everyone else, they were like, the parents kind of hopefully went but barely. And my mom said, no, this is your educational program. Like, this is your educational plan. You should be involved, and you should know what's going on and help them make the proper decisions.And even now, like, I'll take on a job that I'm like, oh, can I do this? I don't know. And I'll just talk myself up. Yes, Frank, you can do it. It's the same concept that you've been doing. It's the same elements. And I'll talk to myself about it. And I'll just convince myself that even if you don't think you can do it, try.Eleni: How does that apply to work now, like, are you having those conversations? Is there anything that you ask for in a work setting?Frank: Not really — accommodations I don't ask for. It's more of, at this point with work, I think it's partly again, because I enjoy what I do and I took that driver's seat. So I'm in a position. I don't think I could work an office job, partly probably because for me it seems very — the same job over and over every day, that kind of thing.But it's also a lot of writing and reading if you're thinking about data processing and typing and things like that. I mean, now that I'm talking to you literally right now, I'm like, huh, maybe I haven't had an office job because of dyslexia. And I've just said, I'm staying away from it. Eleni: And again, it's about leaning into your strengths and being aware of that. And it's OK. An office setting isn't for everyone.Frank: Absolutely. I learned at a young age that I definitely have a mind for technology, and I understand how things work. And it definitely was a natural progression that I was going to go into some type of production or technical stuff, because it's just how my mind works.And now with the management stuff, I know the terms, I know what the devices do. And then I just now am understanding more and more the best way to get the players to fit. And the other thing is, I keep learning. I joke about it, but I don't stay with just one company in one job. I'll stay with my main company, but I'll always do some side jobs here and there, because I'm always wanting to learn new techniques, new ways to do things, new ways to understand what might make and what I could apply to make what I do better.Eleni: Yeah. And also it's so important to be able to reapply knowledge in like different settings. And I think that relates back to what we were talking about in terms of reapplying what you learn in school in like a work setting.Frank: Oh yeah. And pivoting. I mean, life's such a fun journey. and it's like kind of one of those things, like, you never know what you're going to get. And it's totally true. Know what you know, and try to apply it. Pivot all the time. Just constantly. Every job I've had has been some random connection. I mean, even this interview, I met one of your producers in a different way, and that's how we're connected. And we're having this conversation. You never know where anything's going to lead.Just be a happy human. Talk to people, enjoy life, and enjoy what you're doing. And if you're not, then go find something that you do enjoy. Because there's gotta be a job for whatever it is. Eleni: Thank you so much for sharing your story. Frank: Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Coping with anxiety and dyslexia to become a “Top Chef” competitor
Luke Kolpin is a chef with dyslexia. After working at Noma and competing on Top Chef, he’s looking for his next hands-on challenge. Luke Kolpin is a chef with dyslexia. He’s cooked in high-pressure environments, from Top Chef to the critically acclaimed Noma in Copenhagen. Luke didn’t have the best relationship with school when he was first diagnosed with dyslexia. After high school, he started taking community college courses. But he still wondered what he really wanted to do. That’s when his best friend suggested culinary school. After all, Luke’s nickname was Lunchbox when he was a kid. Culinary school changed Luke’s world. He excelled in the hands-on work — but he also had to get past the academics. A teacher who recognized his skill set made all the difference. In this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, Luke shares how he handles challenges that bring up old anxieties — and that asking for help is OK. Related resourcesAfter high school: Different ways to thriveClassroom accommodations for dyslexiaDyslexia and anxiety in childrenEpisode transcriptLuke: I need to do something where I couldn't just turn around and run backwards if I needed to. I needed to just go forward. So I accepted it. And I went on this last season's "Top Chef."Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.My next guest has spent his career in kitchens all over the world. Usually chefs are working behind the scenes. So Luke Kolpin never expected to find himself competing in front of a global audience on a recent season of "Top Chef." Before showcasing his culinary skills on TV, Luke worked in one of the most famous restaurants in the world, Noma in Copenhagen, Denmark. Noma has three Michelin stars, and I know a lot of my foodie friends have fought really hard for a reservation there. And he's not satiated yet. He's currently back in his hometown of Seattle, cooking up his next steps.Luke was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was young, and he talked to me about how his learning difference has shaped his career — from culinary school to thinking about starting his own restaurant. Welcome to the show, Luke.Luke: Hi. How's it going?Eleni: So I know you went to culinary school when you were 19. What made you decide to go to culinary school as opposed to, like pursuing, like, I guess, more traditional sorts of education?Luke: Well, obviously, the normal education route kind of freaks me out a little bit. I mean, not that I couldn't or could not do it. I think everybody can do something if they really, you know, dedicate almost everything to it if they need to. But I was having a very difficult time with school, just, you know, going to community colleges and taking basic AA classes for a business degree or whatever.And it kind of happened to be one of those conversations I was having with my best friend sitting on the couch when we were 18, both being like, "Are we going to go anywhere? Are we not going to go anywhere? What are we going to do?" And a common thing that happened throughout my whole childhood — and of course, a lot of kids eat when they're bored — and I did that a lot. My friends call me Lunchbox in high school because every chance I got I would open up the refrigerator or eat something or whatever I could. So he kind of just made that suggestion of, "Why don't you try culinary school? All you ever do is eat." So I — that weekend, I actually enrolled in culinary school and completely fell in love with it.Eleni: Wow. That's a very influential friend that you had.Luke: Yes. Still my best friend today.Eleni: Cool. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your learning differences. I know that you were diagnosed with dyslexia. Do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, how old you were when that happened and the story behind that.Luke: Yeah. So, I think it was around first grade — that's what I believe — my parents told me that I was diagnosed. I don't remember that meeting, of course, but it was around that time. And I, of course, moved around schools at the early '90s. It wasn't necessarily the easiest transition, I think, for anybody with learning disabilities at that time. You know, being in a class where no one knows how to treat or knows what to do with you. So to be honest, I'd read into a cassette tape and then they'd play it back to you and say "Fix it." That was, you know, in second and third grade. So instead of helpful, it was the complete opposite. I just wanted to be kind of, you know, go underneath a rock, you could say.But of course, I had very caring parents that really helped me out in that sense and always pushed for, you know, a better school or whatever. And I did actually end up going to a school called Hamlin Robinson that everybody has some form of learning disability. I remember on the first day that I was there, you know, holding up my textbook and having a mirror in our desk. So I was able to read my textbook for the first time perfectly. And then, of course, they figure out where on the spectrum you are in your learning disabilities and then kind of teach you going forward from there.Eleni: Yeah. And it sounds like it made a big difference being around other kids that were similar to you and like normalizing those challenges.Luke: Absolutely.Eleni: And how did you go from being in that environment where, you know, you all were quite similar into culinary school, you know, where I imagine that that wasn't necessarily the case. Like people came from like all sorts of different backgrounds. Like, how is that different?Luke: It was, well, getting to the culinary school part. There was about a decade in between that was very challenging. You know, of course, I hid from certain things. I didn't always push myself or apply. You know, I ran into corners and all these sort of things up until I got to culinary school. But then, of course, going into culinary school, I didn't think about, you know, the other things at that point, because I thought I had found something that I really enjoyed. And I actually happened to have a really, well, now he's a close friend, but we had — I had a mutual friend between me and a bunch of my childhood friends that happened to be in culinary school at the same time. So we ended up, you know, becoming really good friends. And to be honest, he didn't have any learning disabilities, and I did. And we still both kind of struggled in culinary school together. Whether or not that gave me mental stability, that, hey, if people that are not have, you know, dyslexia or learning disabilities can have a problem and I'm keeping up with them, maybe I'm doing something right. I don't know if that's how I thought — I don't think I've told my friend that, maybe I shouldn't.But at the same time, it was, you know, it was a little difficult, to be honest. I did fail. I almost failed my first quarter class in culinary school through the academic part. I was in the — what I was told was the 98, 99 percentile of the hands-on. But when I came to putting answers down on tests, it was just like high school. It was filled with red marks. The teacher actually graded it in front of you. It was only about 7 to 10 questions. Then he'd hand it back to you. And on the fifth time that I did that, he started questioning me, saying, "Why do you keep putting answers down like this?" And then started asking me all the questions again. A little bit of trauma started probably coming up through me as the line behind me started being filled with about six or seven people. But I gave them the new answers or what I thought were the answers. And he said "These were the best answers I've gotten in the last three years. Why didn't you put it down on paper?" And that's when he kind of learned that I had a learning disability, and he started grading my tests differently and I started doing a lot better in school.Eleni: Wow. Yeah, I think that really is a testament to like the power of assessing people based on like, you know, the best way that they both learn and then communicate back how they've learned that. I definitely imagine culinary school to be very practical and hands on. So in some ways it's kind of unexpected that there is this academic component. Like, was that also unexpected for you? Like, did you kind of know that's what you were getting into?Luke: I mean, I knew there was going to be a few things for it, of course. I mean, you're you have to go get a textbook or you're going to give you, you know, tests a few times a year. And then, of course, there's still a math class that I didn't do very well in. But, you know, there's still a math class and it's all the basic stuff. So I knew I would have to deal with it a little bit. But of course, you know, there's ways to not deal with it if you want to just be a cook. But if you want to kind of continue on and really make this your life journey, you're going to have to dive into all that stuff. I mean, anything that makes me uncomfortable as a kid, I'm facing it all over again now. Just, you know, a little bit older and hopefully with a different, you know, weaponry, I guess, of knowledge on it. But, you know, it's still challenging.Eleni: What are some of those things that come up for you now?Luke: Well, especially now through a pandemic, you know, having to deal with computer stuff and having to deal with, you know, writing a whole bunch more stuff down and send it off to people. Getting ready to potentially open up a restaurant in the future, you know, you have to deal with all these different numbers that if you're off by one little bit, it's a catastrophic thing.So, I mean, I know what I'm good at. I know what I can become good at. But I also know what I need help with. And, you know, I want to learn everything about what I do. But I also, you know, will put people in charge that, you know, will focus mainly on that. And we can teach each other all sides of things that we don't know together.Eleni: Yeah. So it sounds like whenever you're struggling with someone, you bring someone in.Luke: I mean, there's some things I'll try to do it myself, but I have known in the past that maybe ask somebody. It's OK. Help is OK.Eleni: Yeah. Have you always been that way?Luke: No. I would say, to be honest, after becoming a chef and working in Europe is when I really kind of changed that over a little bit. And knowing that help is accepted and help is OK. I mean, when you're growing up with learning disabilities, sometimes asking for help, if you were never able to in the very beginning or thought you were able to in the beginning can, still be damaging now if you've never talked to anybody about it and been able to get over it. So of course. Is it hard from time to time to ask for help? It still is, you know, for certain situations. But I know asking for that help, regardless of the headbutts that might happen, is beneficial for all parties. And leaving it, you know, to be, and burying it and keep burying it — I think a lot of people can become very good at burying things. So, you know, it's time to unburied those.Eleni: What was it about being in Europe that really, like, influenced that?Luke: The restaurant itself is called Noma, in Copenhagen, which was pretty acclaimed at the time. And of course, when you're in this industry and you start to fantasize about what you can do, you think of high-end restaurants. And I ended up having an opportunity to potentially do an internship in this restaurant back in 2012. And, you know, I really wanted to have someone to teach you. I knew or thought you really had to have a mentor as a chef. And I really didn't have that at the moment here in Seattle back then.So I did find an opportunity and of course, was only supposed to be a two-month-long internship. Now, knowing myself and knowing how hard I had, you know, going through school, if I didn't want to read or do anything, I would just turn around and say, no, go hide in my room. And no one would ever say anything or I would cause into a fight or whatever. So I know I needed to really motivate myself in the best way possible to do that. So I kind of told everybody I was going out for a job. It was a job trial, you know. Basically made up a few lies to push myself, because if I didn't go out there and end up getting a job, it would be a catastrophic failure here. And that turned into me pushing really hard and getting the job.You know, I wasn't as knowledgeable or skillful as everybody else, but as soon as somebody wanted a container from across the room, you bet ya, I'd get that container first. I'd make sure it's dry, and whatever you needed to be set up I'd make sure that that would happen. That attitude turned into a very positive thing there, and they gave me a job after two weeks of me being there.And of course, what really helped me in this restaurant to kind of one, also have confidence to talk to people and kind of interact and how I do now and why I really dedicate a lot to this restaurant, is the chefs were the ones that engaged the customers or the guests. So we would bring the food out. If you were in charge of making a dish, you would explain it. Now, in the beginning, talking to anybody more than one person I'd be petrified. I'd freak out any sort of question asked to me about anything. I would feel like it was a test question all over again and I'd panic.But of course, over the time, you know, you're forced into this and you talk to people and all that sort of stuff. So all these things I was really uncomfortable with doing, there was nowhere for me to turn around and go. I was in Denmark, very far away from Seattle, and I really wanted this to really work. So, of course, I slowly got comfortable with, you know, I might have said a few of the same things over and over again, but eventually it became more natural to me. I became like it was my home there, so I felt like I could really talk about it.And then it didn't matter how many people I was talking to or what I was talking about. I could talk about anything in this for as long as I needed to, as long as I felt comfortable and confident with what I was talking about. And if I didn't, I'd tell you, and then we could learn about it. So this restaurant, you know, I forced myself into it by, you know, in a sense, lying about certain things to force myself to try to get the job. And then once it was here, it was of course, it was very difficult. And, you know, you're having to do things that I really didn't want to do, but I wanted to and I did. And I forced myself to to break through the other side of it.Eleni: So you ended up on "Top Chef"?Luke: I did.Eleni: How did that come about?Luke: I had two friends that were on the previous season, and I also got a phone call from from the "Top Chef" producers. I thought I was waiting for this phone call, but I kind of had told my friend that I wouldn't do it. I didn't think I could go on TV and do anything like that. So to be honest, when I got the phone call to do "Top Chef," I told them I needed a few days to think about it. I said yes and went into this situation kind of the same way and mindset that I went into going to Copenhagen and working at restaurant Noma for the first time. I needed to do something where I couldn't just turn around and run backwards if I needed to. I needed to just go forward. So I accepted it and I went on this last season's "Top Chef."Eleni: So for listeners who haven't watched the show, how would you describe it?Luke: Well, "Top Chef," I was on Season 19 and they're just about to launch their Season 20. So of course, it's a good amount of time that this competition cooking show has been on. It's a cooking show, but it's all formed around a competition. And my season started with 15 people. And you're tasked with a quickfire challenge that, you know, won't get you kicked off the show, but will potentially get you further with maybe an immunity or something positive out of it. And those are typically 30- to 40-minute challenges. And then afterwards, you either have an individual challenge that could be, you know, 2 to 4 hours, or a team challenge. And, you know, you go through one quickfire and one main challenge before you are potentially eliminated and then maybe or may not go to the next challenge.Eleni: And how are the individual challenges different to the team challenges?Luke: Well, the individual challenges are, you know, it's very random. It's very kind of, you know, they give you let's say, for instance, we were tasked with making biscuits from scratch one day. And I would say half of the chefs there have never made a biscuit from scratch. So that you find a lot of things that, you know, you've done for the first time, never done before, and have to now make it in a challenge.Eleni: And what was the most challenging part for you?Luke: I mean, it's a competition. So you working in, you know, situations or realities where in, you know, a normal kitchen, you can stop. You don't have to put the plate up or you don't have to do whatever. You might have given yourselves a certain time frame in a restaurant. But, you know, you can adjust that time. When you're on "Top Chef," if you're given 30 minutes or 2 hours, that's what you have, whether it's a realistic or unrealistic time.Eleni: Speaking of time, you know, I know that like in school, you might have had extra time on, like, certain things.Luke: Everything I wanted.Eleni: Like, did you have any similar time accommodations or other accommodations in the competition?Luke: No. There was a producer actually named Taylor, who I think is amazing. He's a great guy. And he and his sister both have learning disabilities. So it's not like it was like, oh, you have what? Yeah, no, we can't do anything. I mean, there was one challenge that we were given a couple of paragraphs to read and have to research on someone and kind of get inspired by, you know, doing the research. We had 15 minutes to do this. I looked around and said, "You're giving me 15 minutes to read a page and do some research online?" You know, and I was like, "Well, I'm not even going to do the research. I'm just going to try my best to reread this as much as I can and figure something out.".So that was the first time where I kind of had old feelings come back when I was on the show. And I was given an option to if, you know, if you want to have somebody read this to you or something like that, they were going to do it. And I did say no. And I said I'll figure it out, because I didn't want any extra help for that. But it was provided to me for that challenge if I needed it.Eleni: Why didn't you want the extra help?Luke: I don't know. I just, I mean, I did get some inspiration from it, and I got it in a very different way. And, you know, the dish may or may not have come out very well, but that was on my execution, not from where I drew the inspiration from. So I ended up — I did OK.Eleni: So I know that you mentioned that it wasn't necessarily in your plan to be on TV. It sounded like you were actually going to say no to the opportunity. So now that you've had that experience, has that shifted, you know, your plans for the future and what you're thinking about doing with your career?Luke: I think one big thing that it did change for me and — I mean, it's not like I want to pursue the largest TV career or whatever — but I think watching myself for the first time, knowing the mistakes that I've made on the show and knowing they were coming. And I mean, I could I could have crawled under a rock and, you know, never came out, you know, after seeing myself on TV. But to be honest, I never would have thought that I enjoyed watching myself. And I think that was the biggest confidence booster that I needed from going on to the show and knowing that I felt great in a situation that I thought I would never feel good in. So I think that is giving me the growth to no matter what it is that I do foward, it might be hard, but I feel I can do it.Eleni: We had a chef with dyslexia on a previous episode and that really got me thinking. What do you think it is about cooking and dyslexia that's so compatible?Luke: I mean, I think it depends on the environment, of course. But I mean, in some situations, like in the classroom where it might, you know, look really unorganized, trying to be in one's one spot and, you know, having to look at all these words and things. And I could feel really unorganized and whatever. But when I'm in an environment where I'm in charge of 30 people, I have five tasks that are going. And we also have an end goal for the day. And I need to, "Oh, this isn't working, stop and go here" and organizing this giant orchestra. To me, being able to multitask in what we called an organized chaos felt very comforting. You know, I think maybe having the learning disabilities that I had were maybe giving me a different tool that no one else had to be able to organize myself through that chaos and not feel overwhelmed. I think that could be a big thing.Eleni: It just doesn't feel like chaos to you.Luke: I mean, it does, but I enjoy it.Eleni: What else do you enjoy about cooking?Luke: I enjoy the feeling that you do get when you when you're finding that new flavor, you're finding that new thing that you weren't good at doing before. It can be stressful, but not only is that end result going to either have you taste something that's very delicious, or you're going to serve it to somebody and you're going to get a reaction out of them that can then fulfill you as well and fulfill them. So I think that, you know, the overall feeling of either helping yourself, helping somebody else out, helping a community through just the act of what you might struggle with throughout the day and have it be such a positive thing to me, I think is great with it.Eleni: Well, yeah. Thank you so much for talking to me today.Luke: Thank you very much for letting me be part of this podcast.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out our show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at u.org/workplace. That's the letter U, dot org, slash workspace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
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