657 results for: "dyslexia"
Dyslexia: Ways to help your child at home
School isn’t the only place where kids with dyslexia can work on reading skills. There are lots of fun ways to help your child with reading at home. Try some of these dyslexia strategies.
Understood Explains Season 1
There’s a lot to learn about learning and thinking differences like dyslexia and ADHD. Understood Explains is a podcast that unpacks one important topic each season. Season 1 covers the ins and outs of the process school districts use to evaluate kids for special education services. Host Dr. Andrew Kahn is a psychologist who has spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for schools. He explains each step of the evaluation process and gives tips on how to talk with your child along the way.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia and creativity make this artist pop
Kristjana Williams is a London-based Icelandic artist with dyslexia. She wasn’t diagnosed until she was 25, and now she has her own studio. Kristjana Williams is a London-based Icelandic artist with dyslexia. She wasn’t diagnosed until she was 25 and attending Central Saint Martins, an art school with many students who learn and think differently. Now, she’s a renowned collage artist with her own studio.Growing up in Iceland with undiagnosed dyslexia was frustrating for Kristjana. She would try so hard to accomplish her work, but she just couldn’t quite get it without the support that she needed. Today, she knows that her brain works differently, and she leans into her strengths. It’s why her work is so creative and comes together naturally. Listen to this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?! to hear more about how Kristjana’s dyslexia affects her memory, and how it led her to the collage art medium.Related resourcesUndiagnosed dyslexia, and low self-esteem: Becoming a fashion designer, another How’d You Get THAT Job?! episodeFAQs about bilingualism and dyslexiaKristjana’s studio and artEpisode transcriptKristjana: I remember telling my parents, and I remember my dad saying, "Oh, yeah, I always wondered why you couldn't spell your own name." And I was like, oof. I definitely just know that my brain works differently. And I think that it just allows me to put things together. It just happens magnetically. It's very natural.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Kristjana Williams is an Icelandic artist based in London. And she has dyslexia. She studied at Central Saint Martins College and Art School, where she found a lot of others who thought differently like her. She wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until she was 25 years old. Now she's part of the Dyslexic Design art collective and has been running her own studio since 2012. Hello. Welcome.Kristjana: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: Well, I thought a good place to start is your studio. So tell me about the studio. What do you all do there?Kristjana: We're a studio. Kristjana Williams Studio. At the very heart of it is the fine art. And like the creations, there's always, like, a few collections that I will make personally each year. And then another half that the studio is more commercial projects that are brand related, and they also have to work really well together because anybody who's buying the art needs to be happy with the people that I'm working with. So that's like the two main sides of it.And I work in collage, a lot of digital art. So kind of XR as well as the physical 3D pieces, as well as limited-edition prints. It's interesting actually, because we started kind of on the kitchen table and as you kind of grow, probably one of the hardest bits is to get somebody else in to work with you. So it kind of slowly grew from that, from the kitchen table into a studio. From two people to four people to six, and I think we're about 10 at the moment.Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about your chosen medium and perhaps like how you would describe your work?Kristjana: So my role is artist, creative director. So in the very beginning, I had some — because of the nature of my work, so much of it is about research and working with all the Victorian engravings. So you might have to find three older telescopes to be able to make a new instrument. Or often I would use different scientific material to kind of create buildings and architecture.And as a young person, I used to draw things in a really intense way. And when I was at Central Saint Martins, I did this internship with a woman that had this fashion label, and I started drawing patterns for her. And she was actually the one that introduced me to silkscreen printing and Victorian engravings. And the Victorian engravings were used a lot in the fashion industry in London, because you would just have to create these huge giant clips. If we're really quick turnaround for the next season, for the next season. I did like three or four seasons with her. And that just gave me the idea of working big and working on scale. And I was always very interested in kind of animation and the digital side of things.Eleni: When did you first start doing collage and what drew you to it? What do you like about it?Kristjana: As a kid was just constant drawing, painting, and all of it. So it's interesting. When I really look back, I can see that the work is — has that like thread in it. Even when I was doing like the linocutting and stuff and I started screen printing, which I really loved, but I was using the screens as a stamp, and again, like the complete thread in that.So the collage actually came much later. It's just kind of realizing how to work digitally, and that was through the fashion of having to have to create those big fabrics very quickly.Eleni: So you mentioned you have dyslexia. Is there any link between your attraction to collage and your artistic practice to the way that your brain works and your dyslexia?Kristjana: Being dyslexic in school in Iceland, of course, because I'm in that age group, we had no idea. It was just like what probably every other dyslexic experiences: that really frustrating, knowing that you can do it, but you still you can't quite get it out there. And some things you're good at mostly, like the variation in dyslexia being so vast. So I think definitely my memory was affected in a really specific way where, you know, you remember, but then you just — you can't get to your short-term memory quick enough.So I feel like when I finally went to Central Saint Martins, which wasn't until I was 25, at Central Saint Martins, they just immediately went right for you to get you tested. And I was like, oh. And I didn't think much about it, because you do learn how to navigate it. And I remember telling my parents. And I remember my dad saying, "Oh yeah. I always wondered why you couldn't spell your own name."And I was like, oof. Being so frustrated. But they just, yeah, I think I definitely just know that my brain works differently. And because of the way that I think, that it just allows me to put things together. It just happens magnetically. It's very natural.Eleni: And you mentioned one of the challenges that you had when you were first working with the team was just being able to communicate what you were thinking over the years and like having a studio and working with a team. Like how have you learned to be able to communicate what's in your brain or externalize what's going on in your head?Kristjana: I think definitely when I look at the beginning, again, I just was just frustrated because something was so clear in my head, but I just couldn't communicate it easily. So that was definitely a journey, just a journey that you just by hammering, just doing it gets easier and just — but if you're around nice enough people that understand you and see what you can do, you can just, you just have to have faith in humanity.And I feel like with the girls in my studio now, they know me. They know now what I will remember, what I won't remember. And they know to remind me of certain things. And they know that I'm going to go to the airport without my passport, like for the 30th time. And they're just all kind of floating around and they can work together. And actually, as I'm getting older, I feel like I'm using, like — and I'm just getting more and more better at these things.Eleni: You kind of talked about when your team first came onboard, you talked to them about it. Did you mean that you talked to them specifically about having dyslexia and how that might impact your day to day? Or what did you mean when you said that?Kristjana: Not in the beginning. I think people definitely just experienced me as this person that would flip it around quite a lot. But now as I've got older and like my team were all more established, I feel like in the past four or five years, like I'm just always very vocal about it. I say, "I can't really hear. Would you say these letters out loud so I can picture them?" And like when people are talking to me really fast on the phone, like breaking down something that they're spelling, and I just always make a point of talking about it. Or it's just also with certain disruption in the studio. In fact, it took me a long time to learn that I could ask for that break.Eleni: Do you think that there are any ways that your dyslexia influences how you manage your team and manage your studio, like beyond just creating the work itself?Kristjana: I'd like to think so. It makes you have more kind of empathy with so many creative people with neurodiversity. You feel really comfortable around them. Also, like you realize when you look back with your friends that you automatically grow with people that are a little bit similar to you.Eleni: What would you say that you've learned about yourself or your dyslexia over the years? If you could go back and talk to your 20- or 30-year-old self, like what would you say?Kristjana: I think I'd mostly like to speak to my 10-year-old self. I'd just kind of give her a pat on the back to say, you know, you're not crazy. Because it was so confusing. I think when I was in my 20s, I think I just never associated dyslexia with how it affects your memory. So I still thought that was just me being me.And it was working with some dyslexic art exhibitions with Jim Rokos, my friend that was also in Central Saint Martins. Um, I completely forgot what I was going to say.Eleni: The funny thing is that you were talking about memory.Kristjana: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. OK. So. Yes. So with my memory is all of my thoughts. They're just like floating on the top of the ocean. And even though I just heard something, the likelihood that I'll be able to get it? Quite slim. And I'm just — I think I've lived with fear of just feeling quite stupid. It really makes you doubt yourself.And I think when I got diagnosed, it's actually like at 25, 26, because you know how hectic you are just in that time. And I was always this person that was doing 100 things at the same time. And yes, so I think I didn't actually start to read about that until my 40s. Looking back, I feel like I would have educated myself a bit about the diversity of dyslexia.Eleni: Does your dyslexia manifest differently across languages?Kristjana: No, it's interesting. Icelandic is quite literal, but it's still quite wordy. So expressing myself in English, I find that really easy. Icelandic is really similar, because in Icelandic it's just — it's still the letters. It's just, it's hearing them and just the hesitation with the writing, even though it's just fantastic on computers and spellcheck and I, you know, compose things really quickly now. Though I think it's quite similar.Eleni: I have heard that, yeah, but I just wondered what that experience was like for you. Do you want to give us an example of a project that you're working on right now, and perhaps a little bit of your artistic process in that?Kristjana: I have 20 projects going on at the moment. So the Victoria and Albert Museum is one of my favorite places in the world, and it's such a big contrast with Iceland and growing up there. So it's a bit like going to these old English places that are just like — you find you're so curious in that one. So I've been working with them since 2011.And I did this installation in the British Galleries where you could sit down in the sofa. And I'd do this really intricate like junker, like collages, and you could do your own collage. So we had four corners of that. That was really, really fun, to always feel very deep that everybody has that creativity inside of them, but we just kind of leave it at the door. And that's why collage is so amazing.Like I've done so many like live collage workshops or digital ones, and it's just always brilliant and so different what people come up with. And like when I did those four pieces, everybody was like, oh, do you really want to open up your work? Ot do you want everybody just to be able to go into your work and just — nobody wants to do what you do. Everybody wants to do their own thing. So I continue to work with them throughout the years and with about —.Eleni: Over a decade. It's pretty amazing.Kristjana: Yes, I did the — they did a huge exhibition about Alice in Wonderland: Curiouser and Curiouser. And I was commissioned to do the book for that. And we did a VR experience within the exhibition. So like working digitally and being able to kind of break everything part and doing the paper theaters was just amazing.Eleni: That's so exciting. Thank you, Kristjana, for joining me from London.Kristjana: Thanks for having me.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. The show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. We'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at u.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot org slash workplace.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to help people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Matthis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thank you for listening.
Understood Explains Season 2
There’s a lot to learn about learning and thinking differences like dyslexia and ADHD. Understood Explains is a podcast that unpacks one important topic each season. Season 2 explains ADHD diagnosis in adults. It’s hosted by psychologist Dr. Roberto Olivardia, who answers common questions and shares stories about when he was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia gave me problem-solving powers — and a career in politics
Robert Carroll grew up with resources that helped him with dyslexia. Now, he’s an Assembly member who wants to give every child that opportunity. Robert Carroll, a New York State Assembly member, has dyslexia. He was born and raised in the district he represents, the 44th Assembly District in Brooklyn. Growing up with dyslexia helped make Robert an independent, out-of-the-box thinker. Sometimes it was hard for him to read or think the “right” way, so he learned to see things differently.After law school, Robert dived into the world of politics, a field that requires a lot of technical reading and writing. But he thrives in the work through a combination of good ideas and delegation. In this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, Robert talks about how he had the privilege of going to schools that helped him work with his dyslexia. Now he advocates for policies that allow all kids to get that same support, even if their families don’t have the resources his family did.Related resourcesDyslexia laws: What they are and how they workVideo: Gavin Newsom opens up about his dyslexiaA day in the life of an employee with dyslexiaEpisode transcriptRobert: That, for better or for worse, is something that I think, you know, dyslexic children learn very, very quickly is to how to solve problems for themselves. And I think it's our job as adults to try to, you know, accentuate the positive and limit the negative and to make sure that, you know, those kids have, you know, the supports they need and the education they need so that they can really thrive and be unbelievably successful in whatever they choose to do. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. We hear a lot about national politics, but we often don't acknowledge the impact that state and local laws have on our daily lives. My next guest is New York Assembly Member Robert Carroll. He represents the 44th District in Brooklyn at the state house in Albany, and he's co-sponsored and written several bills related to education, literacy, and dyslexia. For Assembly Member Carroll, it's personal. He was diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age. Now, he's taking his own experience to help students with dyslexia across New York State. We talk to him from his bustling office in Brooklyn in the middle of a thunderstorm, so you might hear some rain during this one. Hi, Robert. Thank you so much for talking to me today. Robert: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Eleni: Yeah. So, I thought a good place to start is, you know, just naming the fact that I did not grow up in the States. So, I don't really know that much about local politics, and I'm sure that people that did grow up here might even have the same issues. So, could you just tell me a little bit about what your position is in government, what your district looks like, and, you know, what a typical day might look like for you? Robert: I'm a New York State Assembly member. I represent the 44th Assembly District in the New York State Legislature, of which there are 150 members of the New York State Legislature, each coming from a different district from around the state. The districts are approximately 140,000 people. As I think people are seeing in America, more and more, so much of the important work and so many of the rights that so many hold dear in our country really are done at the state level in so many ways. And so, it's great to be able to represent a part of Brooklyn that I grew up in and that lots of my family members still live in and good friends. And so, I've been doing this for almost six years now. Eleni: What led to you becoming an assembly member? How did you kind of get here? Robert: My family was always very civically engaged. From a young age, I was very much attuned with what was going on right here in Brooklyn, as well as just kind of politically generally. And so, you know, after I graduated law school, I was very active in Brooklyn politics and civic life here in Brooklyn. And the then assembly member had decided to retire. And so, I ran against two other people in the Democratic primary and won that. And then I won the general election as well. But it's a very, very democratic area. So, it was really the Democratic primary was the main event, so to speak. Eleni: You know, in a previous conversation, we heard from you that, you know, you have dyslexia, and you also really like to talk. Do you want to talk a little bit about how that might have influenced your career exploration at all, or even your interests or hobbies?Robert: Struggling with dyslexia as a child let me know full well that not only are there many ways to skin a cat, but that those who say they know best, those who say that they are experts, are oftentimes wrong, and oftentimes, you know, don't see the full picture and that things can be deceiving. And so, it made me a little contrarian. It made me a little bit of somebody who every once in a while doubted things. And I, you know, it definitely gave me kind of a perspective on the world from a very, very young age. Eleni: How do you think that influenced, like your values and your politics and like the work that you do now and the things that you advocate for? Robert: You know, what I realized as a child was "Just because you learn differently or think differently doesn't mean that therefore you are in some way less than someone else." And so, you know, what I would say is that it made me very much a free and independent thinker, but a thinker that also is rooted deeply in facts. You know, one of the things that I think lots of young people struggle with, lots of families I see struggle with is, you know, reading and writing or these kind of initial indicators so often of a child's academic achievement and intelligence. And, you know, there's lots of folks to this day, you know, who roll their eye at dyslexia. They roll their eyes and say that, you know, they don't believe in it. They think that it's mumbo jumbo. They think that it's false and that, and of course, you know, at first blush, you might say, "Well, just a second." Of course, the most gifted children — to use a phrase that they might use — well, of course, they're going to be the kids who are the earliest readers when if you scratch a little bit deeper, if you actually look a little bit more critically, of course, life doesn't pass that out, right? Yeah. There are some people who are phenomenally, learned, read very early on and the such and are phenomenally gifted and talented people and have done amazing things for our society. But of course, just the reverse is true as well as we've had phenomenally gifted people in every walk of life who have not. Just because a young person is struggling to learn how to read when they're six or seven, doesn't mean that they don't have unbelievable amounts of talents and gifts, you know, academically and otherwise, that we should not be trying to foster and that we need to get them the education that they deserve. And stealing somebody's agency, because you don't give them that proper education, is a real crime to that person and has damaged so many people. And I was lucky not to have that happen to me. I was lucky that my parents had the resources and the means to get me an education. And so, I've dedicated a large part of my adult life to making sure that you don't have to be lucky or wealthy or privileged to get a proper education. Eleni: Yeah, 100%. And I think that's so important to think about, like, you know, like the effects of standardizing what intelligence looks like because it really does look different for every person. You've touched on a little bit about like, you know, your experience of school. Could you talk a little bit more about your experience? Like as a person with dyslexia, you know, what helped you through and how that's kind of contributed to the things that you're working towards now? Robert: Well, I mean, I think one of the big things, I think perseverance, right? And I think understanding that, you know, we're all going to face adversity and challenges. You know, dyslexic children, unfortunately, see that adversity very early on. It's not the hardest adversity anybody has ever faced, but it definitely presents itself very early on in a school setting. And I think that that can be unbelievably frustrating, but also allows for, you know, individuals to have a real grit and to become independent critical thinkers very early on. Because, of course, you know, all of us are just trying to survive. A young person, when they're faced with an obstacle and they need to figure out a way around it, well, if the more traditional way is not going to work for them, they're going to have to come up with unique ways to solve that problem. And I think one of the, you know, I'm reticent to generalize about dyslexia or neurodiversity. I think people are all very different, and my story is not the same as anybody else's story and vice versa. But I do think that, you know, when people like to talk about dyslexia being a gift, I think one of the places where you could really make that assertion is the fact that if you give a child, a young person, the proper support so that they can become a fluent and fluid reader and they don't have the kind of stigma or self-esteem issues that can then sometimes come with that if they've continually failed. They also have had to constantly approach problems in novel ways. And I think like in most things in life, I don't care what you're doing. I don't care if you're, you know, in government, in business and the arts and media, in the sciences, people are paying you or hiring you or electing you to solve novel problems, not to recite previous successes. And I do think that, you know, that for better or for worse is something that I think, you know, dyslexic children learn very, very quickly as to how to solve problems for themselves. And, you know, I think it's our job as adults to try to, you know, accentuate the positive and limit the negative and to make sure that, you know, those kids have, you know, the supports they need and the education they need so that they can really thrive and be unbelievably successful in whatever they choose to do. Eleni: Yeah. Thank you for going into all of that. I think it's, yeah, really interesting to think about, you know, how adversity impacts the way that you approach other aspects of life. And, you know, perseverance is a skill, not necessarily an innate thing. It's definitely like learned and can be taught and comes from experience. So, I totally understand where you're coming from there. For you personally, were there any particular interventions that made a big difference that helped you through that you kind of wish for other kids, like in a similar circumstance now? Robert: Oh, I mean, 100%. I mean, so, you know, I went to my local public school, P.S. 230, and I was a very chatty kid. And at the end of first grade, though, I couldn't spell my name or say the ABCs. And I was lucky enough to have a teacher who went to my parents and said, "Look, I, you know, I bet, you know, I bet my salary that he's dyslexic or he has dyslexia." And my parents had the means to go get me a neuro psych at Columbia University Medical School. And then I went to the Gateway School midway through the second grade, and I then went to the Windward School for middle school, and they saved my life. I would have never gone to law school. I would have never been able to do those things if I wasn't given those foundational skills by the time I was starting when I was seven years old. And so, you know, a lot of the work we do in the legislature is about how do we do early screening and identification of dyslexia, how do we bring in evidence-based supports, how do we start treating children as individuals? You know, so there's a lot of nonsense. You know, I lied, cheated, stole to get out of foreign language requirements, you know, I had to constantly advocate for things like, you know, extended time for, you know, the SAT or the bar exam and, you know, a bunch of the things that, you know, I think I want a school system that realizes that, "Look, there's lots of strengths and weaknesses out there." Some are much more easily identified, and some have very specific signs and symptoms and need specific remedies like dyslexia, and others are more amorphous.But what we need to do is we need to treat children like individuals. And we need to realize that, you know, it's a big, diverse world out there and we want them to interact with that big, diverse world. You know, it's an absurd thing to say, "Look, let me have a speed-reading contest with you." I do like to read. I read quite often. But yeah, if I took the bar exam and I didn't get time and a half, I don't know if I would have passed it on the first time. And look, you know, you want to take it without any time? I'm fine with that because I know the studies show that folks who are, you know, don't have dyslexia, who get extended time, their scores don't change. And folks who do have dyslexia, their scores change dramatically. And so, I definitely, I am dogmatic when it comes to that about identification and making sure that we're providing, you know, evidence-based curriculum in our schools. Eleni: Yeah, that's great. I know you just mentioned like a couple of things that could still come up for you, like, you know, reading speed and learning the language. Is there anything that you would like to share about the ways dyslexia kind of, you know, impacts your day-to-day and maybe what you do when challenges come up and how you advocate for yourself, and you share those things with like the people you work with?Robert: Look, I don't know, Spanish or Russian or Chinese or French. And I don't try to pretend that I do. I have a great team around me. I think we do things collaboratively a lot, and I think that that's really an important skill. There's not anything that I go, "Well, I don't do that." We write lots of newsletters and op-eds and bills here. I draft some of it, other people draft some of it, other people do this or that. I'm a much better persuasive writer than technical writer. You know, I would say that I probably write 80 or 90% of the op-eds that come out of our office that we publish. Some of the more technical writing, I would say, you know, gets done by staff. But, you know, all of it is very collaborative. You know, there are people in our lives who are overwhelmed by detail and are pedantic, and don't know how to get to the point. And some people would say that, you know, this is the secret strength of people who are successful dyslexics is kind of getting to the point and what are the things that matter? And, you know, I would definitely say that's something that speaks to me. Eleni: I think it's interesting to think about, you know, you mentioned, you know, one of your strengths might be like pulling out key points or like, you know, focusing in on like certain details. And I think what I love about this podcast is like everyone can kind of share where they are in personal experiences of dyslexia and other like thinking and learning differences, you know, where it does kind of like look and sound and kind of manifest differently for everyone. So, I think that's really cool that that's how it kind of shows up for you and, you know, like this idea of having a team of collaborators where everyone is able to bring to the table whatever their unique strength is. I think that is so important because, you know, we're not all geared to be good at all the same things. And that's a great way to kind of lean into what your strengths are by relying on other people to also lean into theirs. So that's a really great point. Robert: I think it does. It takes kind of all types, and I think it's surrounding yourself in environments where, you know, I also find like people do things that they're good at and that they like doing. And so like, look, I can, you know, I can talk and give interviews till I'm blue in the face, right? I'm not I'm not worried. I will get on the phone with a reporter or somebody else like, these are things that I don't find difficult or hard at all and thus am happy to do them all the time. And so, I think when people have strengths and weaknesses, it's also it's like, "OK, what's going to make your day a day that is more enjoyable or workflow that's more enjoyable?" Obviously, we all have to do things sometimes that aren't completely, you know, that we like to do or are always great at. But I think finding roles that you go and say, "I know I can hit the ball here. I know this is the kind of role player I can be." You know, will just set you up for a lot more success and then will also make it so that you're less likely to be put in a position where you feel like, "Look, those aren't my strengths." Eleni: Yeah, everyone's experience is unique. And also, the world is a more interesting place for the fact that people learn and think differently. Progress wouldn’t happen if we didn’t have some people that like, thought out of the box. And then also we need people that are really good executors and able to get things done. Robert: Totally. Eleni: Thank you so much for talking to me and for sharing your story and for all the work that you're doing in this space in terms of, you know, initiatives and, you know, state bills that help kids with dyslexia. Robert: Well, thank you so much for having me on, and thank you for this series. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got that job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Brianna Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia and delivering the punchline: A comedian’s story
Liz Miele is a comedian with dyslexia, her hidden superpower. Quick witted, and creative, she puts dyslexia, and all it comes with, in the spotlight. Liz Miele comedian dyslexia. eye spotting comedy daily life, thousand jokes sleeve. comedian fits perfectly creative, storytelling brain. material comes straight experiences — like practicing phrase “commitmentless sperm” say smoothly stage. puts dyslexia comes spotlight. Liz diagnosed dyslexia young age. Growing up, considered “con artist” learned show teachers wanted see. wasn’t later life really understood brain works, dyslexia could superpower. Related resourcesDyslexia creativityVideo: Nina G uses stand-up speak learning thinking differencesDav Pilkey sees ADHD dyslexia superpowersThe Dyslexic Advantage, Brock Eide Fernette EideA First-Rate Madness, Nassir Ghaemi Episode transcriptLiz: everything like good friend comedian writer, really trace back anything somebody like, "Oh, Liz really good this" — trace back either trying survive school I'm dyslexic brain works differently dyslexic.Eleni: Understood Podcast Network, "How'd Get Job?!," podcast explores unique often unexpected career paths people learning thinking differences. name Eleni Matheou, I'm user researcher Understood. means spend lot time thinking find jobs love reflect learn are. I'll host.Learning thinking differences joke, sometimes right hands laughing matter. next guest professional comedian. Liz Miele often talks experience dyslexia stage. bad good. Liz regularly performs New York City across world. She's also written book, written produced web series, appeared shows like Comedy Central's "This Week Comedy Cellar" NPR's "Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me." Liz, welcome show.Liz: Yay!Eleni: talk show lot about, know, different school childhood experiences how, like, sometimes learning challenges really impact people's, like, early perception confidence, can't do. thought might nice starting point, I'm kind curious early experiences kind like impacted thought yourself.Liz: like you're like, let's start childhood trauma. Let's get right it. Let's start trigger. feel child? great. I'll tell much.Honestly, know, beginning, don't know. thought everybody faking it. No, didn't get diagnosed dyslexia third grade, don't think really started understand impacting got older like time constraints stuff. like elementary school, it's like, project. there's like leniency there's lot coloring involved. Like, know mean? Like, nobody's really getting mad you're doing. soon hit, like, middle school really kind pushed get special learning classes, feel "other" feel — didn't. felt like — oddly felt smart enough like good con artist enough didn't need special classes. worked really hard get special classes high school.But don't think realized still hadn't changed. Like still took lot longer. took way longer read books. took way longer write. took me, know, much longer take tests. memory ability retrieve stuff time-pressured way was– I'm still good that. think learned con artist. learned to, know, read CliffsNotes. learned cheat. wasn't later life really found much like learning capable smart am. wasn't mid 20s really started understand learn, like learning, actually need learn. school taught present smart, present time, way teachers needed see me.Eleni: Yeah, it's really interesting think lot people think like school learning thing — they're kind synonymous other. really refreshing hear there's distinction. you, see distinction like school learning? Like, find works you? get place figured out?Liz: Like said, like, school me, personal family, freedom. getting good grades meant could hang friends. Getting good grades meant could leave house. lived strict household dad's dyslexic. siblings dyslexic, wasn't excuse. that's whatever took get result, opposed learning. you're kid, you're like, oh, don't like math. I'm never going anything math. well, don't I'm going anything science. cares science?Like started perk really pay attention try learn literature writing. even though reading writing hard, enjoy creative person, always kind wrote stories silly area. liked history well, again, never well tests memory dates would get jumbled head.Then fast-forward, I'm older, I'm starting learn things want learn got stand-up. started different types writing. — stand-up, write stuff, nobody really sees it, doesn't matter it's spelled wrong. memorize present it, aspects like middle school high school stuff. really care now. I'm figuring tools ways memorize care. literally self-taught memorize things, edit, present ideas. self-taught.And wanted learn something, think fast-forward, I'm 30s, pandemic, learn computer stuff, get overwhelmed stuff. know learn sense I'm like, know break down. know keep notes. know once, I'm going forget everything. keep notes first time it, go back notes again. update notes. teach others I'm slow putting stuff together way basically anybody also computer literate. became, especially pandemic, person teaching people basic computer skills, know learn. know learn, know teach.So ways, learned I'm pretty good teacher I'm innate things. think people naturally comes aren't really good teachers, like like, yeah, it. look around everybody's confused. started confused taught yourself, know everybody's going get confused, know everybody going meltdown, prepare that. feel like lot ways — self-teaching really opened understanding brain.And — read "The Dyslexic Advantage," great book, actually ended meeting doctors presentation them. like, book read 25, that's really started call stupid. still am, like I'm stupid different reasons now. like, started kind see intelligence lies innately good at, places, know, especially creativity comedy, people like, oh, think way? I'm like, don't know, do. even own, know, place succeed without try hard. go, right, I'm best speller. I'm terrible grammar. greatest memory. excel looking like divergent thinking creative ideas. I'm great problem-solver, I'm fun silly comes looking solutions. I'm great aunt. I'm like really good aunt, really think give dyslexia.Eleni: list things you're good actually lot longer things struggle with. think listeners, know, that's that's easy thing able identify like, learn point out, know. get place could kind identify you're really good at, but, know, really confident like sharing even, know, bragging that?Liz: Well, also keep mind I'm bad at, society says shouldn't bad at. I'm bad spelling, I'm bad grammar. Nobody see notebook. that's half reason got it. Nobody sees, like, I'm protective notebook. Don't get wrong. Look, I'm still embarrassed. don't want lose it. nobody sees misspellings. Nobody sees poor grammar. I'm still able
Dyslexia in preschool: 4 signs you might see
Even before kids start reading, you may be able to spot signs of dyslexia. That’s because dyslexia can affect language skills that are the building blocks for reading. Here’s what you might see in preschool-age kids. 1. Speaking like a younger child Delayed language development is often one of the first signs of dyslexia. Your child may mispronounce a lot of words, like saying “aminal” instead of “animal.” At school, your child may not talk as much or may not know as many words as other kids do. 2. Calling things by the wrong name Dyslexia affects the way the brain processes language, including trouble coming up with the right word. Your child may hand you a spoon when you ask for a fork. At school, your child may struggle with learning and naming numbers, colors, and the letters of the alphabet. 3. Trouble rhyming Your child may have trouble filling in the rhyming word in nursery rhymes (like “One Two, Buckle My ____”) and may have even more trouble making up new rhymes. At school, your child may not recognize rhyming words like dog, log, and hog. 4. Not following directions Kids with dyslexia often have trouble following directions that have multiple steps. They may only “hear” the first or last few words. You may ask your child to put on shoes and a jacket, but your child only gets a jacket. At school, your child might need to be reminded a lot about classroom rules and routines. Explore signs of dyslexia at different ages and steps to take if you think your preschooler might have dyslexia.
In ItDyslexia: More than mixing up letters
When kids have trouble learning to read, families may wonder about dyslexia. But what exactly is dyslexia? And what are the signs to look out for? When kids have trouble learning to read, families may wonder about dyslexia. But what exactly is dyslexia? And what are the signs to look out for? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk about dyslexia with Dr. Gabrielle Rappolt-Schlichtmann. Gabbie is an education scientist who works to make education more inclusive to kids and adults who learn and think differently. She’s also dyslexic, and the parent of a third grader with dyslexia. Tune in to learn some of the early signs of dyslexia, and why it’s never too late to get a diagnosis. Find out how to work with your child’s school to get support, and what reading strategies work best. Plus, hear why Gabbie would never want to be “cured” of dyslexia, even if she could be. Related resources What is dyslexia?7 common myths about dyslexia How to teach kids with dyslexia to read The legit fear behind “Please don’t call on me to read”Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs…Rachel: …the ups and downs…Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today, we're taking a deep dive into dyslexia, what it is, what it isn't, and how to support kids who have it.Gretchen: And we have the perfect guest here to help us with that. Dr. Gabrielle Rappolt-Schlichtmann is an education scientist and the executive director and chief scientist at EdTogether, an organization that works to make education more inclusive to students who learn and think differently.Rachel: Gabbie is also someone who herself has dyslexia, and she's a mom to a kid with dyslexia. She talks about all that with so much insight and clarity, we're so happy she joined us for this conversation. So, Gabbie, welcome to "In It."Gabbie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you both today.Rachel: Well, to start off, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and in particular your work as it relates to kids who learn and think differently.Gabbie: Sure. So, I'm an applied developmental psychologist, and I've been working with schools and teachers, education professionals, museums — basically, wherever learning happens — to help them to be inclusive to kids who, and adults, who learn and think differently in designing learning environments.And I want to start off by saying, even though I work with and think about and design environments for all kids who learn and think differently, dyslexia has a very close place in my heart because I'm dyslexic and I am also the parent of a third grader who is dyslexic and has ADHD. And so, I do think about that. I think a lot more in my personal life and my personal experience in addition to working with schools and in educational environments.Gretchen: So, as you know, we invited you here today to talk about dyslexia. So, let's start with the basics. Gabbie. I think probably the most common myth we hear when it comes to dyslexia is that it's about reading and writing letters backwards. Is that what dyslexia is?Gabbie: No, definitely not. So, when we think about dyslexia, it really doesn't have anything to do with flipping letters around or anything like that. It's a brain-based learning difference that affects reading, writing, and spelling. So, people who have dyslexia have difficulty basically working with language is how you can think about it. So, they may have difficulty isolating the sounds within words or matching letters to the sounds. Like, for example, you might have difficulty mapping the sound "to" to the letter T or the sound "tho" to the letter Th. And when you have difficulty with that, it can really affect your ability to deconstruct words as you're trying to read. And that affects reading, and it also affects your ability to spell and produce language as you're trying to write.It tends to run in families, like in my family. So, my son's dyslexic, I'm also dyslexic, and my father as well. And it really has nothing to do with intelligence. It's really important to understand that. It's just really about how your brain handles language as it relates to text, but it doesn't have any meaning to how intelligent you are.Rachel: So, were you kind of on the lookout for it, knowing that it runs in families and knowing that you yourself have it, you know, so with your kids, was that something that you kind of had an eye out for?Gabbie: Definitely. And my son is actually my second child, but we were on the lookout for it, and they popped up for us when he was in preschool. It felt like he was randomly — when we would talk about the alphabet or letters, or I would read to him — it almost felt like he was sort of guessing or randomly saying what letter went with a sound. So, I kind of had a clue that he was going to have some difficulty. And then, in fact, by the time he got to kindergarten, he was really struggling to get anything out of the reading instruction that was happening in his classroom.Rachel: You know, one common belief is the idea that you can't diagnose a child with dyslexia until they're in elementary school. Is that true?Gabbie: No, absolutely not. In fact, oftentimes we refer to that as the sort of waiting to fail approach. So, absolutely, by the time kids get into elementary school, when they're in the thick of reading instruction, you're going to see difficulty if a child is dyslexic. But way before that, when they have first exposures to anything about mapping the symbols of language, to the sounds of language, you know, doing things in a sequence, really that idea of thinking about working with language, if they're having difficulty with that, it's a clue that they might have difficulty. In fact, you can screen kids as early as preschool for difficulty with that.And with my son, because he was having difficulty, I can remember — he's in third grade now — but we went in to see his teachers for a conference and, you know, they were like "Kids develop at different rates and let's just give him time." And I thought, you know, there's no harm in having direct, explicit reading instruction, right? So, let's just do it. Why wait for him to fail, you know? And I did actually have to I don't know if this is the right word, but escalate it to the head of the preschool, because I was getting a lot of pushback from the teachers. And when I talked to her, I just said, "You know, I'm dyslexic, my dad's dyslexic. He's not responding to reading instruction. I don't think any kid gets sad or upset from getting competence with a skill. So, let's get him some, you know, instruction." And they did. They were very responsive up to that.Gretchen: I like that idea. I like to say, "You know what? No matter what, this is confidence-building, right? To get these extra skills in place." So, you know, you mentioned a few of the things that families or teachers could be looking for when kids are really young, you know, thinking about a parent at home, what would be a very like easy sign to maybe bring to the teachers and say, hey, could there be something here?Gabbie: Sure. So, I think a lot of times as parents, we do nursery rhymes with kids or maybe singing songs with kids where there's rhyming. And if you're noticing that your child's having a lot of difficulty with rhyming or sort of not picking that up or seems like they're guessing you might probe like in a fun game, you know "What rhymes with cat? I'm thinking sad," you know, sort of going back and forth. And, you know, a lot of kids have difficulty with these things. But if it's popping up along with when you're sort of introducing a letter to a child or something like that, and maybe they have difficulty following directions in a sequence or something like that, that would be a sort of constellation of things to raise to a teacher.Rachel: So, is there an optimal age for a child to be evaluated for dyslexia or, you know, I mean, we talked a little bit about it can be as young as preschool, but is there kind of like an ideal age or is it really about when you see the signs?Gabbie: Yeah, I think the answer to that is it's never too late. Absolutely not. And I'm a good example of that. I didn't have a diagnosis until I was in ninth grade.Rachel: Oh, wow.Gabbie: And I'm a very good example of, you know, a girl who's not identified because I was doing well enough. So, the teachers were sort of saying, "Well, it's fine. This is just who Gabby is. And then I had an English teacher actually in the ninth grade, who was like, "Wow, I would really.." based on our classroom discussions and, you know, how smart this teacher thought that I was, he expected more from my writing, And so, he asked to see a rough draft in my handwriting, and the spelling was so bad, he was like, "I can't read this. Let's figure out what's going on."And then I was finally evaluated and I got my diagnosis. And it made a huge difference to me in terms of the direct instruction — really remedial instruction that I had around reading specifically — but also the accommodations that I received in school, which allowed me really to excel in areas of interest like science and math. And in fact, I went on to college and majored in neuroscience and my job now it's like 80% reading and writing.Rachel: Right.Gretchen: So, then your ninth-grade teacher noticed these things. It took up until them. I'm wondering if you had a sign, if the teachers didn't have one, did you have one inside and wonder what was up?Gabbie: Oh, yeah. And my mom is actually a special education teacher.Rachel: Got it.Gabbie: And she knew, she knew what was going on and she was teaching me at home, basically. So she was, you know, reading with me. I can remember spelling tests in elementary and early middle school where we would start on Mondays and just drill through them. And I would still barely pass after hours and hours. I can remember having homework where I, you know, had to fill out a workbook, and I can remember becoming so frustrated I actually threw the book across the room in a sort of fit of anger. And I was very calm, self-regulated child. So, I think for me I just thought, "This is what learning is" until I had that teacher.And it was like this real relief for me being evaluated and having the label, because I think sometimes people worry that the label is bad or can affect you in a negative way. But for me, it was a complete relief because it was like, "Well, you know, you just learn and think differently and your teachers aren't teaching the way that you need to learn. And there are some things that we can do now that we know to make this a way easier lift." And it was absolutely true.Rachel: Wow. That is really amazing that, you know, you were able to get to that point without anybody really seeing it. But once you got there, what supports did you get, you know, and how did they help?Gabbie: Yeah, I want to say first to that, as a professional in the field, you know, when I work with middle school teachers and high school teachers and sort of helping them think about kids with dyslexia, kids with other learning and thinking differences, I'm often incredibly surprised at how little they know about their kids reading levels and that they tend to make assumptions about everybody being able to read when they're sitting in like, say, a history classroom or a math classroom, and making assignments without looking into that, especially if a child doesn't have an IEP yet.So, I think it is important to know that by the time you get past fourth grade, most teachers aren't thinking about teaching reading, they're thinking about their content area instruction. And so, they may not be aware of where your child's specific reading skills are or writing skills. So, in terms of accommodations, I would say for me it was mostly about being able to listen to my texts across the curriculum.So back then, this is a long time ago now, I used to have books on tapes, so my textbooks on tape, but now, of course, we have digital support, so you can get basically any text, any reading that you need to, including things that are on paper like worksheets. You can use accessibility, accommodations, and features even on your phone just to have things read aloud to you. And so, that's a pretty basic accommodation that was really important to me. In fact, now I still often because I'm so much more efficient at listening comprehension in my professional life, I listen to the texts that I read. Not always, but most of the time.Another accommodation that I've used through college was doing speech to text technology, so where you can speak what you want to say in text and then editing through typing. I also had a lot of executive functioning support. So, you can think about executive functioning as being that sort of control center of your brain, that sort of set of skills that helps you to self-regulate and organize and figure out how much time it will take you to do something and be able to plan to get your work done. That was a huge thing for me. So, I had really explicit instruction and supports around, you know, having a daily planner and really learning how to chart and better guesstimate how long things would take me.Rachel: Right. You know, reading instruction is such a hot topic. It was then, it is now. So, families might be hearing things like structured literacy, balance literacy or phonics versus whole language. When it comes to kids with dyslexia and really all kids who are learning to read. What does science tell us about how kids learn to read best?Gabbie: Yeah. So, they really need explicit instruction about the code of reading. English is very, actually exists across languages, but let's just talk about English here. English is a very complicated language. It involves you learning one sound and then under a different set of rules. It makes a different set of sounds, you know. So, for kids who are dyslexic and many other kids as well, really explicitly teaching that sort of phonics-based, separating out, intentionally teaching systematically, the code of language is really important. And for kids with dyslexia, really doing it in a multisensory way so that you're taking different ways to get the information into your mind.One approach that a lot of people talk about, that's evidence-based in terms of supporting kids with dyslexia to learn to read is kids actually trace letters with their finger in sand as they're doing the sound-related work and it's just a way to work on getting that idea into the brain through different channels. And then repeated practice. You know, kids with dyslexia are going to need repeated practice with a skill over and over and over again in many different ways, more times than you would ever expect that you would need that repeated practice.Rachel: That brings me to my next question, because teachers always tell us from preschool all the way up. I mean, I've had sixth, seventh, eighth grade teachers even say it, that the best thing we can do for our kids is read out loud to them. So, does a diagnosis of dyslexia reflect some sort of failure on that front?Gabbie: Definitely not.Rachel: Good.Gabbie: And it really goes back to that brain-based difference thing. You know, our brains are built for language, not for reading. And so, some kids, when they come to reading, have a brain that picks it up more easily. And other kids, you know, kids with dyslexia being one example, really need that explicit instruction to get their brain around what's happening on the reading side. So, it's nothing that you did. It's just the way I am. Exposure to text is always good because it's good for your relationship with your child. It's good for them to understand the utility of books and to be transported by stories or to understand like how they can get information from books. But whether you did that or not won't affect their ability to pick up reading, when you start getting into decoding and understanding the really, you know, the relationship between symbols and sounds.Rachel: So, as you shared, you know, there's a genetic component to dyslexia. And so, if there's a parent or caregiver out there who is dyslexic and maybe they didn't get the supports to feel confident in their reading now, or they still find reading really frustrating, how can they read to or read with their child?Gabbie: OK. So, this is a wonderful question, and you can absolutely get as much out of listening to books as you can from reading books to your child to listening to books together and then talking about the story when you're in bed together. I remember when my daughter, she was, I think, in fifth or sixth grade, I think fifth grade, and she really wanted me to read "Little Women" to her and I can read it, but oh my goodness, is my fluency slow with that. You know, the sort of older English and it was very tough. And I remember sitting in bed with her and she was like, "I can read it, Mom," you know? And I'm probably going to cry right now while I'm talking about it. It's a hard moment, you know, like, because she was, you know, beyond me in that skill. Now, I can read a very complicated neuroscience text about dyslexia published in "Science" magazine. But I read it by listening, and reading a text like that is always going to be really hard for me. So, having her do that, I was like at the same time really proud and then also a little bit ashamed. But she just made it so wonderful for me in terms of being like, you know, "I want to read it" and us doing that together. So, that's also a good opportunity, I think reading together doesn't necessarily mean you reading to your child.Rachel: And I love that you're sharing that, you know, audiobooks, listening to books. It's I feel like there's that myth out there that that's a cheat. And it's totally not.Gabbie: Definitely not. And I think one big piece of advice I could give parents, you know, when they're sitting in IEP meetings and or thinking about their kids talking to their teachers in parent-child conferences, you know, by the time kids get to fourth grade, which is really that transition from learning to read to reading to learn, now your child might still be learning to read, and that's fine, but by the time you get to fourth grade, you really don't want all of their access to the content in the subject areas to be through reading in a traditional sense if they're reading below grade level.So, it's like separating "I'm still learning how to decode the text at a certain level, and I'm learning to comprehend texts at maybe a much higher level. And so, I can do that through listening comprehension." So, that's one of the best things that can happen when you get into middle school and high school. If you have a child who's reading below grade levels and working is on that is to say, "Let's make sure that reading comprehension in subject areas is that they have access to listening to text."Rachel: So, I've seen a statistic that one in five students has a language-based disability. But you certainly don't get the sense that we have that many students getting extra reading and writing support in the classroom. So, why is that? And what are the barriers to getting a diagnosis, if that's related to the reason why there's this kind of disparity?Gabbie: I think there are lots of reasons why kids aren't identified. So, you know, resources is one thing in the schools. So, there's a kind of threshold to be screened and there are limits, a limited set of resources, amount of time in terms of the number of special educators that they have in the school. So, that sometimes plays out, you know, in terms of who gets identified, how many kids are captured in that net. You know, I think it's knowledge on the teacher's part.General education teachers, so the ones who teach the main classroom, they might not know anything about dyslexia at all, might not have had any experience in their training, might have only had one class where they learned about all disabilities from teaching kids who are deaf to teaching kids or has autistic to teaching kids who are dyslexic. And that often sets up a kind of us and them in schools where it's like kids who have difficulty reading, that's the responsibility of the special education teachers and then everybody else's I'm responsible for, just because they don't know. They just don't know. There's a knowledge gap there.And I think also sometimes parents don't necessarily know that they can have their kids evaluated or can advocate to have their kids evaluated in the school. And that testing can be free, is free in the school. You can always have a private evaluation which can be expensive and you have to wait a long time for. But you can ask to have your child evaluated and you are protected. Your child is protected under IDEA to be evaluated and to have services when they're warranted. So, there are lots of issues as to why those kids don't get services.Rachel: And so, then if, let's say a kid gets missed and then they don't get a diagnosis and they don't get the support they need, how does this impact a person's future life? How does it impact, you know, upper grades of school to beyond if they don't get these supports?Gabbie: Yeah. So, I mean, it can be really devastating. And I don't want to put it on the child because I really believe, you know, in my work we make choices, how we create schools, and the ways that we teach.Rachel: Yep.Gabbie: And there's absolutely no reason why all kids couldn't be getting direct, explicit, systematic multisensory reading instruction, because then we would capture all the kids in the general classroom. But unfortunately, that's not the way most schools are set up. And so, what ends up happening is kids fail and then they get separate, explicit reading instruction as an add-on. So, I think when you don't have that and you're not reading on grade level, it really affects your ability to participate in any aspect of the curriculum. So, being able to learn about history, learn about science, and about math, even if you might be gifted in those areas because so much of the way that we construct school is through reading. Yeah, like if you think about math, you get a math textbook, right?Rachel: Yep. You read a word problem.Gabbie: You get a word problem, you're doing a proof. You have to write the proof, right in geometry. So, we really use reading and writing as a medium for instruction and for learning. It doesn't have to be that way, but that is how we do it. So, it can be really devastating for kids. And on an emotional level, I'm doing a bunch of work around stigmatization and how it affects kids with learning differences. Their perception of themselves and literacy is so important to our culture that when a person presents as not literate, they feel almost as if they're less than human, right? Because it's like this skill that we all assume that everyone has within our culture. And it's like, "Well, why can't you do that?" You know?And so, it's like this experience of dehumanization that happens if you can't read. And so, yeah, if you feel like it's being missed, if you have a concern about your child, if you suspect, you know, get in there and ask questions and you might get pushback. But I think, you know, no child was ever harmed by having an evaluation and getting extra support, really.Rachel: To be super clear about this, can a child or anyone who's been diagnosed be cured of dyslexia?Gabbie: No.Rachel: I'm using the word cured or doing air quotes, but also, you know, can we make it go away?Gabbie: Yeah, you cannot make it go away. It is literally a brain-based difference in how your brain processes and works with language. There's some evidence that as you get intervention, your brain does change. You know, the brain is classic. It does change in response to intervention. But when we look at that, it's mostly about when dyslexic people learn to read marshaling other areas of the brain to help them to do that. So, you can change in response to intervention. But no, it's not going to be cured.And OK, I might I'm going to say something a little controversial now as an adult with dyslexia, I'm not saying that it was easy. It was really tough to be in school and to go through schools that weren't really like fit for me as a person and that I had to figure out how to navigate, you know, with support. It was really hard. And I have a lot of privilege as a white person and a person who is resourced in terms of my parents being able to get me extra support. So, I don't want to like reduce that.But I do want to say, looking at my life now and who I am, I wouldn't want to be cured of dyslexia because it makes me the person that I am. And what's interesting is if you look at the research literature, even the brain science literature around dyslexia, that there are actually lots of other differences in the brain. Everyone's focused on reading because that's the biggest challenge, because the schools aren't set up to support kids who are dyslexic. But there's actually this other really interesting research literature that's just getting going, that's looking at, "Well, do kids with dyslexia have advantages in visuospatial processing?" So, for example, people who are dyslexic when they get through school are actually overrepresented among astrophysicists.Rachel: Wow.Gabbie: And you may be like, why is that the case? Well, it turns out that people who are dyslexic tend to be better at picking up patterns from a visual field. So, like pattern recognition, like being able to look at a star chart and recognize a black hole and things like that.Rachel: Something I could never do.Gabbie: Yeah. So, I think there's lots of things about being dyslexic that are advantages that maybe make up the kind of person that you are. That also comes with negatives, you know, in terms of the reading in the way school set up. But doesn't everybody have a mix of those things?Rachel: Totally.Gabbie: So, even if it could be cured, I wouldn't want it to be because it makes me who I am.Rachel: And that's such a great thing to be able to communicate to kids who maybe find out like, "Oh, you know, I have this diagnosis now. Now what?" You know, for parents and teachers to know that, you know, these are some things that they can maybe share with those kids. You know, as a super positive.Gabbie: Absolutely.Rachel: Gabbie, thank you so much for sharing everything you know and your personal stories. It's been just such a pleasure.Rachel: I have learned so much today. And also, I really appreciate you busting these myths because some of them I really didn't understand were myths.Gabbie: Thank you both so much. It was really fun to talk with you today.Rachel: Before we go, we have a favor to ask. On this show, we talk a lot about finding joy and celebrating successes when it comes to raising kids who learn and think differently. But what about the fails.Rachel: Oh the fails!Rachel: Yes, the fails. Let's be real! We all make mistakes. So, let's bond over those kinds of moments, too.Rachel: I have no idea what you're talking about, but. OK, I do. So, I think we're talking about those days when we are so exhausted, so fed up, we find ourselves saying or doing the total opposite of what we think a good parent or caregiver would actually say or do.Rachel: Totally. Like, maybe you just lose it after your kid spills juice everywhere again.Rachel: Or maybe you set a limit, even though you know there is no way you're going to stick to it. I mean, not that I've ever done that, but it's probably something to watch out for.Rachel: Yes, you are not alone. So, let's laugh and maybe cry about these all too human fails together. If you have a story to share, send us a voice memo at InIt@understood.org. Tell us how it started, what you were thinking and feeling, and how it ended. If you'd rather send an e-mail, that's fine too. You can also send that to InIt@understood.org.Rachel: You can be anonymous or use your first name. Just know that submissions may be played or read on the podcast and thanks. We can't wait to hear from you, and we can't do this part without you.Rachel: You've been listening to" In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So, we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at InIt@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Rachel: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Rachel: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin, and Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Rachel: And thanks for always being in it with us.
Dyslexia Was No Match for My Daughter’s Love for Soccer
“Mom, can I still play soccer if I’m dyslexic?”That’s one of the first questions my daughter Jocelyn asked me after she was diagnosed with dyslexia in fourth grade.I’d expected her to ask about school or reading. But instead she asked about soccer—the thing in life that she loved the most.Jocelyn started playing soccer around the same time we learned that she has dyslexia. (She also has dysgraphia and executive functioning issues.) She was having a lot of difficulty in school, especially with learning how to read. Soccer seemed to help her through those tough times.If it was a good day at school, she’d come home and ask for a snack with a smile.But if school went poorly, as it often did, she’d come home in a darker mood and head straight to the backyard. Sometimes, she’d kick the soccer ball against the house. Or she'd try to get the dog to play soccer with her. Either way, it was pretty clear she needed to burn off steam, and soccer was the way she did it.When she was done, she’d finally come inside and do her homework. It still wasn’t easy, but after she’d kicked the ball around, she was willing to put in the work for school.As a mom, I think I instinctively understood how important soccer was in her life. I felt like it was my job to make certain she continued to play the game she loved.The funny thing is, I never planned on soccer being such a big part of her life (or mine). I’ve never played soccer. Truth be told, I don’t even really understand the rules to this day!But soccer was her passion. It gave her the motivation to keep moving forward.So I became a soccer mom. I traveled around the state (and later the country) with her to games. When she moved from recreational play to an elite soccer club, I supported her all the way. I watched as she played on an Olympic developmental team.There were times when I was tempted to say that I would take away soccer if she didn’t do her homework. But I don’t think that would have been a good choice. When I had those thoughts, I reminded myself that when she shined on the soccer field, it made her shine a little more off the field as well.Soccer was the one place where she was simply Jocelyn the goalkeeper. No other labels applied.To me, it doesn’t matter what passions children want to pursue as long as it’s healthy and good for them. It can be making cookies or singing in the choir—or even origami.The son of one of my close friends has learning and thinking differences, and he’s passionate about origami. Every holiday or birthday, I know I’ll get an amazing origami from this boy. My friend once shared with me that her son can handle more at school because he says he’s “the best origami creator in the state.”The important thing for kids like my friend’s son and Jocelyn is that when they’re doing what they love, their learning and thinking differences don’t matter.This year, Jocelyn, graduated from high school with a 3.7 GPA. She won the 2016 Allegra Ford Thomas Scholarship from Understood founding partner the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD). She’s headed to college in Washington state to study sports management. At school, she’ll also intern with the Seattle Reign, a professional women’s soccer team.Jocelyn has succeeded because she got the right services, supports and accommodations in school. But I know soccer also played a big role. Her life is so much more than her dyslexia diagnosis, and soccer is an important reason why.Want to learn more about April and her daughter Jocelyn? Watch this video about their visit to Washington, DC, to testify about dyslexia.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia is why this production manager is so good
Dyslexia helped him find his strengths — like thinking ahead. Frank Imperiale explains why he excels as a production manager for live events and concerts.As a child with dyslexia, Frank Imperiale always had to think 10 steps ahead to account for his reading challenges and anxiety. Today, thinking ahead is a skill that’s served him well in his career as a production manager for live events. His impressive list of credits includes the NYC Marathon, comedy shows, concerts, and more. Get Frank’s advice on how to turn your learning and thinking differences into strengths. And hear what Whoopi Goldberg, who also has dyslexia, once shared with Frank backstage. Listen in. Then:Watch a video about a jeweler with dyslexia who found his strengths.Check out Whoopi Goldberg and a dozen other Oscar winners with dyslexia.Episode transcriptAnnouncer: On the Understood Podcast Network, there's a podcast for everyone. Find your new favorite today at u.org/podcasts.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Frank Imperiale is a production manager for live events. His credits include the New York City Marathon, comedy shows, political debates, and concerts with stars like Whoopi Goldberg and T-Pain. He's an expert in audio-visual technology, and he has dyslexia. Welcome to the show, Frank. Frank: Thanks for having me. Eleni: So as part of your work on live events, you're an expert in audio and sound. So was sound always your thing, or do you have a story of what you were into as a kid and where it all began? Frank: Yeah, it's kind of funny. I was the little toddler running around the theater because your teacher didn't have a babysitter. My dad, he used to do kind of high school dramas and that situation. And I was just always around theater sound and lighting, and it was something to keep me busy. And instead of me just sitting there or playing games, I was like, how does that work? And that's how my mind kind of works a lot, is I just want to know how things work and why. So I started getting involved with it and I stuck with it.Eleni: So Frank, I would love for you to describe how dyslexia shows up for you. Frank: My version of dyslexia is I definitely have issues with sounding out names. Words and spelling are just not my forte at all. And then a big problem is when I read, I just get line convergence. So I can read the same line five times and not realize it until I'm like, wait, did I read this? And it happens constantly. And still to this day it does. And you know, I learned tricks. I put a piece of paper under it to try to keep me on track. And it works, but it's still there. And it's never going away. It's just, I know how to deal with it now. Eleni: When I heard that you are an audio and sound person or that you've gravitated towards audio, that kind of made sense to me because I often imagine if you have dyslexia, perhaps like reading might be a challenge, so you might lean into other things. But I was wondering if that is a fair assumption to kind of think, oh yeah, like having dyslexia means that you're more into audio. Like, is that actually true for you? Frank: I don't think so. I mean, audio? Yes, it does help. Yes. I've listened to a million books on tape. Podcasts are the same for me. Like, I'll get a lot of information from that versus reading from a book. For me, when I have to read, it's usually manuals or instructions, that kind of thing, or something that I'm really interested in. But when I was in school reading, no, no, thank you. I'm good. Cliff Notes, please. Cliff Notes helped me so much. And most of it was, I would try to find audiobook versions of everything and listen to it. So maybe subconsciously it was built in for audio. But I think it's more of just the adventure of it. I don't think I can ever do like a nine-to-five office job. It's just something that I'm not built for. Eleni: Yeah. So as you said, it's more interesting because you don't really know what's going to come up day-to-day. What do you think it is about audio that makes a good fit for you?Frank: When I was a little kid, it came easy to me. I was very good with technology, and I have that kind of brain for technology. So it fit and then it was something I did and I enjoyed. And then I moved on farther. And then in high school they found out, oh, actually this kid knows what he's doing, so great. We'll give him even more. And then when I went to college, I was like, I'm not going to go to school for theater because I know what I need to know. So I said, let me dabble in television. And I went for broadcasting, and TV added to my toolbox we would say in the communications world. It just kept adding to that toolbox of what I know, but I kind of fell back into that live event.And maybe it's the adrenaline, maybe it's the crowd that there's kind of this feeling that you get from an audience. I kind of noticed a lot, even as a technician, it's not just being on stage, but you can just feel it from them. And it was missing in television and things like that. Eleni: What I'm hearing is that it's more about the environment and the setting and like the thrill of live events, as opposed to like day-to-day tasks that you do around audio and visual.Frank: Yeah. I think it's just like, there's an end product. There's something you can see, and every time it's different, but you're doing the same thing. You're moving levers, you're tweaking knobs, you're adjusting volume. That kind of thing. To me, that's the boring part. The fun part in the stuff that I do is it's organizing and managing and making sure that we complete our goals and get across the line. So that way we can have that performance. Eleni: I want to talk a little bit about like how dyslexia shows up for you at work. Have any challenges come up in the work that you do, or is it more so that you've found a role where you're not really impacted day to day by the challenges associated with dyslexia.Frank: I don't know. I feel like now I've grown to be able to compensate in a lot of areas. Like there's still the sending of the emails and reading it like five times and reading it out loud. And is this the right word and googling that to make sure that it's perfect and right, because I'm always thinking that it's going to be wrong. So that's a big problem. But otherwise I feel like because I have dyslexia and because I've figured out ways to compensate, maybe, it's those skills that I bring to the table that a lot of other people can't: the multitasking and the thinking, the thinking way ahead to avoid potential problems. It just happens now.Eleni: What is it about dyslexia that makes you good at thinking ahead? Frank: It came from when I was in school. I had a whole bunch of anxiety. I mean, sick every day before I go to school, because I didn't know what was going to happen. And the big thing was trying to control that feeling and making sure that I could figure out what was going to happen and anticipating that. So I think, OK, well, what are we doing in class? What could happen? Is there a potential chance for like a pop quiz? Well, what would be on that quiz? How can I study for that? And all that would process for every class. And then depending on how the day was going, it would change. And I would just think constantly about what's going to happen next in English class when you're sitting in class and we have to all read in class. Dreadful, dreadful experience. And I would be constantly monitoring and calculating. All right, well, this person's reading this paragraph. There's five people in front of me and then you count down and then of course you have the one kid that decides they want to read too. And then all of a sudden that changes and you have to reevaluate. And then it would be like, OK, one, can I say, "Hey, I got to go to the bathroom." So they skip over me. That's another opportunity to do that. So it was always that process of calculating. And I think it's more now that I do it and I don't even realize I do it.Eleni: Where you're anticipating?Frank: That I just anticipate all the problems, even like the smallest thing possible. And it's the same thing. Like people laugh at me when I'm at work, because I always say, oh, hang on, I got it in my car. And they're like, why do you have all this stuff in your car? Like, why do you have extra tools and all of this and timeline and whatever it is. And I got it in my car because I don't want to be unprepared and I don't want to be stopped.Eleni: You said that you always had to feel really prepared when you went to school. It sounds like there was a little bit of anxiety that showed up. In what ways did that anxiety show up for you day to day? Frank: School was horrible until probably about my junior year. But before that, I would literally throw up every morning to the point where I would even make sure that I had something in case I was on the bus and I got sick. It wasn't carsick. It was purely anxiety because I didn't know what was going to happen that day. Eleni: Wow. That's so intense. Frank: It was. And it sometimes comes up now, too, surprisingly, that it's still at work. Sometimes I'll get that same feeling. Eleni: It's really interesting to hear how two things that maybe you wouldn't necessarily associate as being related — I wouldn't necessarily think, oh, because you have dyslexia you're really good at thinking ahead and planning. But I can see now, like after you've explained it, how those two things can relate to each other. Frank: Yeah, it was the only way that I figured out how to survive. And that was a big thing. My mom was really a big fan of figuring out what works for you. Yes, it's a learning difference and it's true: I learn differently. So I needed to figure out the way that I was going to fit in to what I was given. And the anticipation was the only way I could figure it out. Eleni: I've heard a lot through interviews I've done with people. it actually becomes easier when you focus your energy on your strengths and maybe the things that you can change as opposed to either dwelling on challenges or like things that can't change, or like maybe accepting that there are certain things where you can't fit into that box. And that's actually OK. Frank: Oh, absolutely. My motto is "I'm not doing brain surgery." And that is what I tell everyone. I mean, I deal with clients and they think that it's the end of the world if something doesn't happen or if a cue's late or something like that. And I literally say one, no one's probably going to know. Because they don't know the show or they don't know the performance. And two, it's OK. You can't sweat the small stuff. You can't dwell on the past. And I think that's part of my anticipation. I can't dwell on the past because I got to keep going. Like, I don't have time to complain about, oh, we should have, or we could have. There's just no time for it. You've got to keep going and keep moving forward. Eleni: It's interesting that you bring up the audience won't necessarily be able to pick up on if there's a mistake a lot of the time. I often will attend concerts and events and you know, I'll be blown away by the light effects, especially if it's coordinated with sound. I'm like, how do they do that? Can you give us like a peek into how the magic happens? Frank: Honestly, how it works a lot of the times is it's just, you do the same show over and over. I ran what a lot of people term as a roadhouse. What would happen is about seven in the morning or so two tractor trailers would probably back in, and we would unload them and basically set up their sound, their lighting, their set, whatever they had for the performance. Most of the time that would bring us all the way to lunch. And we'd come back. We'd focus some lights and keep moving forward. And then we get to the showtime. And half the crew, all of my staff, which could have been anywhere from 10 to 50 people, had never seen the show, didn't know what was going on. And so they have a stage manager. And the stage manager says, OK, do that. And then we just listen to them and we're almost in a sense trained professionals that we know our operation and what we have to do. And there's some lead person that gives them the command. Now, sometimes that fails miserably and sometimes it doesn't. I can't tell you how many times you just have to fly by the seat of your pants.Eleni: Do you have any crazy stories you can share of things that have gone wrong?Frank: One of the funniest times was we were trying to load out a show because once the show is done, we then take everything and pack it back up and put it on the trucks. And they leave that night. So we had one show that someone had snuck around the truck and parked in the loading dock and it's on a college campus. So they just went to go party or wherever they want. And we couldn't get the stuff on the truck. So we finally devised like a ramp and we wheeled everything on this 53-foot tractor trailer over this little tiny ramp over this car. Got it all out. And then at the end of the night, we aired out all of its tires so that way it would be stuck there for the weekend. We had to get that truck packed. It had to be, I don't know, in Connecticut the next day. But it's like, yeah, it really got under our skin. So we're going to get a little bit back on them. And then, I mean, there's been simple things, like all of a sudden, company I worked for, their truck driver got injured and they need someone to drive their truck. And next thing you know, I'm a truck driver for the day. And I think that's why I do like the line of work I'm in. Because one day I'm a sound guy. One day I'm lighting guy, one day I do video. And the other day I'm a truck driver. Eleni: Well, it sounds like you wear many hats. But you're also in a managerial role at these live events, right?Frank: I mean, the management role is a little different and weird because I'm not a manager that is very hands off. I'm always like, no, I'm part of the team, I'm going to help you where I can. And when I have to step away, I have to step away because I have to do something. But yet also I'm not your typical manager again, because I just can't do one thing. And I'm also a big fan of teaching. So if I see someone doing the wrong thing, I'm not going to say no, you're doing the wrong thing. This is how I want you to do it. I explain to them why. And a lot of people start learning my process of my mind. They understand. They're like, well, why does it matter that we run the cable this way or that way? It's still getting point A to point B. Like, yes, but when you're loading out, it's going to be much easier if it goes this way, if it goes around this one piece that I know is going to be a problem. And they're like, why are you thinking about the load-out? And I was like, you always think about the load-out, because you want to get home. You want to get out of there. So again, it comes into that mind of anticipation and already solving those problems before anyone thinks of it. Eleni: Yeah. I see how that's related. So, I was told you see a lot of celebrities backstage and you once met Whoopi Goldberg, who also has dyslexia. Can you tell us that story?Frank: Whoopi was awesome. I mean, Whoopi literally, when we sat down, she came up to the stage and we were sitting and we were like, oh, you probably have about 15 minutes before we start. And she sat down and she just started talking to me and like, what are you doing in life? What are you this, what did that? And to the point where I was like, you have to go on stage now and she's like, they can wait. And we just continued to have a conversation. And it was, it was great. I was like, really? This is happening right now? Eleni: Earlier, you mentioned that you do think differently. And then now you just talked about how it's also important for you to kind of communicate how you're thinking or why you're thinking that particular way and for other people to understand that. Do you think that you have like a desire to be understood and for your thinking to be understood because it's different?Frank: I think so. I think that's a big thing. Like even the last gig I just finished was working the New York City Marathon. And we only do a small sliver of it, but that small sliver is still covering sound for 200 acres for all 30,000 people that came this year. But even that I was bouncing around doing 50 things, four sets of communication. I had two different radios, two cell phones, and everything was going off at the same time, but yet I was still also loading a truck. And people constantly ask me, I don't know how you do it. And I said, I really don't either, but I do it.But then I do try to convey a lot of why I do things and how I do them. And I want people to understand, like, I'm not like an advocate or like, oh yeah, I'm special and I'm different. No. But it does keep rearing its head that yeah, I'm dyslexic. And you know what? That's why I'm doing what I do. Eleni: Do people at work or colleagues and peers, do they know?Frank: Oh yeah, absolutely.Eleni: Do you talk about it in that way? Like, yeah, I think that that's because I'm dyslexic.Frank: It comes up. Like in conversation, I don't shy away from it. Why should I? It's nothing to be ashamed of. Even when I was a kid, like I remember when my mom wanted me to get tested. And I was kind of like, I don't want to be the dumb kid. Oh, you're the kid in special ed. You're going to resource. But that changed when I was like in high school, because no one thought of me as the dumb kid. And they're like, wait, you have resource? And then I would try to be an advocate in that case and explain it. And I think that's where I learned, don't be ashamed that you're dyslexic. It is who you are. You can research and you can find out so many like CEOs and amazing people have dyslexia. And I think it's because they're wired that way and that's why they're successful. And that's why they have that kind of drive because they've always had to do it to survive. Eleni: Yeah, there's like a little bit of a correlation there between dyslexia and entrepreneurship. Frank: And what's funny is I have no interest in running my own business. I mean, I've done it. I've been there, done it, but no thank you. I'm good. For me, that's too much. Eleni: You mentioned that when you were a kid, people would ask you why you were going to resource. And you know, you didn't really feel any shame around telling them why. Where do you think you learned that? Because it's not an easy thing. It's something that I hear people struggle with a lot, especially when they're younger. Frank: I think that ultimately came from my mom, because my mom was a big supporter. And she said, use your resources, use that as you need. Do want to look up that or study more. That's just time for you to figure out what you need.And I think that's a lot to do with why I am the way I am today, was during our, you know, IEP meetings and anything that was dealing with us, my mom made sure that we were at them. I was one of very few kids in my circle that I knew that actually went to their IEP meeting. Everyone else, they were like, the parents kind of hopefully went but barely. And my mom said, no, this is your educational program. Like, this is your educational plan. You should be involved, and you should know what's going on and help them make the proper decisions.And even now, like, I'll take on a job that I'm like, oh, can I do this? I don't know. And I'll just talk myself up. Yes, Frank, you can do it. It's the same concept that you've been doing. It's the same elements. And I'll talk to myself about it. And I'll just convince myself that even if you don't think you can do it, try.Eleni: How does that apply to work now, like, are you having those conversations? Is there anything that you ask for in a work setting?Frank: Not really — accommodations I don't ask for. It's more of, at this point with work, I think it's partly again, because I enjoy what I do and I took that driver's seat. So I'm in a position. I don't think I could work an office job, partly probably because for me it seems very — the same job over and over every day, that kind of thing.But it's also a lot of writing and reading if you're thinking about data processing and typing and things like that. I mean, now that I'm talking to you literally right now, I'm like, huh, maybe I haven't had an office job because of dyslexia. And I've just said, I'm staying away from it. Eleni: And again, it's about leaning into your strengths and being aware of that. And it's OK. An office setting isn't for everyone.Frank: Absolutely. I learned at a young age that I definitely have a mind for technology, and I understand how things work. And it definitely was a natural progression that I was going to go into some type of production or technical stuff, because it's just how my mind works.And now with the management stuff, I know the terms, I know what the devices do. And then I just now am understanding more and more the best way to get the players to fit. And the other thing is, I keep learning. I joke about it, but I don't stay with just one company in one job. I'll stay with my main company, but I'll always do some side jobs here and there, because I'm always wanting to learn new techniques, new ways to do things, new ways to understand what might make and what I could apply to make what I do better.Eleni: Yeah. And also it's so important to be able to reapply knowledge in like different settings. And I think that relates back to what we were talking about in terms of reapplying what you learn in school in like a work setting.Frank: Oh yeah. And pivoting. I mean, life's such a fun journey. and it's like kind of one of those things, like, you never know what you're going to get. And it's totally true. Know what you know, and try to apply it. Pivot all the time. Just constantly. Every job I've had has been some random connection. I mean, even this interview, I met one of your producers in a different way, and that's how we're connected. And we're having this conversation. You never know where anything's going to lead.Just be a happy human. Talk to people, enjoy life, and enjoy what you're doing. And if you're not, then go find something that you do enjoy. Because there's gotta be a job for whatever it is. Eleni: Thank you so much for sharing your story. Frank: Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia: Questions from families answered
Do you have questions about dyslexia? Here, experts answer common questions families have about dyslexia, like whether it can cause headaches and how to teach kids with dyslexia to read.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!How dyslexia and ADHD helped a first-time novelist
His young adult novel is a best-seller on Amazon. Find out how dyslexia and ADHD shaped Ryan Douglass’ unique approach to writing. His young adult novel, The Taking of Jake Livingston, is a best-seller on Amazon. In this episode, find out how dyslexia and ADHD shaped author Ryan Douglass’ unique approach to writing. Ryan also shares how being Black and LGBTQ impacts his learning and thinking differences.Listen in. Then:Visit Ryan’s website to see his other workLearn about more authors with dyslexia, like Henry Winkler and Octavia SpencerEpisode transcriptEleni: Hi, I'm Eleni. And I'm a user researcher. That means I spend my days talking with people with learning and thinking differences. People with challenges like ADHD, dyslexia, and more. I listen to what they have to say and how they feel. And I make sure that their experiences shape what we do at Understood.After speaking with literally hundreds of people and hearing literally thousands of stories, we realized how easy it is to feel alone. But we also realize that when people hear stories of others who learn and think differently, it can change everything. So we started to ask a simple question. Could it be that people find fulfilling jobs and careers not in spite of their difference, but because of them? We're making this podcast, "How'd You Get THAT job?!," because we want people with learning and thinking differences to have inspiring role models in jobs and careers who are amazing at what they do. And we want to help people see how to zone in on their own unique strengths at work.Today, we're talking to Ryan Douglass, the best-selling young adult fiction writer from Atlanta. We talked about his struggles with ADHD and dyslexia early on in his career, and how that experience helped bring his story to life.Ryan Douglass is a Black, queer writer from Atlanta, Georgia, with ADHD and dyslexia. He just published his first novel, which is a horror fiction best-seller on Amazon, which is super cool. That was my introduction for you. I would love you to share how you identify and how you would introduce yourself. Ryan: I'm Ryan Douglass. I am 26 years old, and I just came out with my first YA horror novel, "The Taking of Jake Livingston," which is out now through Penguin Young Readers. So I identify as Black, queer, non-binary, and a person with ADHD and dyslexia. I think the intro you gave was pretty good. I am a writer from Atlanta and I've been writing since I was very young, did a little bit of journalism when I was in college and got into that. And after college I was writing for a few digital magazines and also working on my first book. So I got my book deal a few years ago and the reception has been awesome. And yeah, that's right.Eleni: I think that often there's an association with people with dyslexia not necessarily being drawn to like reading or writing. And in your instance, it was something that you were really drawn to. So I would love to hear what it is about ADHD and/or dyslexia that you think makes you a good writer. Ryan: So for dyslexia, it's one of those things that has always been a challenge when it comes to reading. But I just love the written word so much that it's just something that I was able to rise to and not get over, but experience books the way that I do without judging myself too harshly. Because I probably don't read books in the way that most people read them. I do a lot of mood reading, which is when I just — it's when you pick up a book and you read a few pages, because you feel like you're in the headspace of that particular book. And then you pick up other books. So I'll usually read five books at a time, and that's also the ADHD coming in. Cause it's, I can't focus on one thing at a time, but....Eleni: Did you always like books, like even when you were a kid? Ryan: So I got really into picture books after reading a few Dr. Seuss books. And I started writing my own picture books and I was just like, I think the first thing that really caught my attention was the pictures. And then the rhyming and then the stories. And as I got older, I started reading chapter books and then I always read and I always felt like it was something that helped me communicate too. Cause I wasn't very vocal as a kid. So I started writing to express myself and it just never went away. It's just always been something that I've come back to express and escape.Eleni: Mood reading. I've never heard of that term. Is that something, is that a Ryan-ism or is that a term that is out there in the world?Ryan: Uh, I think it's out there. I actually heard that on Twitter. Someone was talking about mood reading and how people with ADHD mood read and that it shouldn't be stigmatized. And I looked into that and I was like, that's totally me. Mood readings. Eleni: I love that term. Ryan: Just read for the vibe.Eleni: Yeah, that's really cool. I'm into that. OK, OK. So you mentioned reading and ADHD and dyslexia. You haven't talked about the writing side yet. Ryan: I think that when it comes to writing, it actually helps me with the word play. Like sometimes I'll write sentences that don't immediately make sense, but the structure of them is interesting. And then when I rework them, I can make them make sense. And it has like a — it almost gives it a poetic style because the words are arranged in an interesting way. So I think that's how dyslexia has helped. ADHD has really helped with the way that I focus. I ran in like nine-hour bursts at a time because I get into hyperfocus. Then it's the only thing I can focus on.Obviously there are days when I feel like I can't write anything because I just get so distracted and then days when I'm just like so in the zone that nothing can rip me out of it. And I think that's helpful for productivity, even if it is hard to schedule your life around something like that.Eleni: Yeah. Um, so you mentioned hyperfocus. I would love to hear a little bit more about how that feels for you in your brain and in your body.Ryan: So it's two sides of a coin. Sometimes I just cannot focus long enough to finish a chapter. And then sometimes I get irritable when I'm in that zone and people try to bother me. I'm just like, why are you trying to bother me? Why don't you understand that I can't focus on anything right now? And people are just kind of like, what are you talking about? You can take a break. And I'm like, no, I can't.The thing about writing a book is that there are so many things that have to be active at one time. You're focusing on the one book, but you're focusing on character, story, plot, scene work, setting. And sometimes all these things are just playing in my head. It's like when you're watching a movie, you're focused on the movie, you know. A lot of stuff is happening, but you're looking at the movie and that's what happens in my brain. And when the movie is really clear to me, I just have to put it down. And if it's coming to me, I just can't break out of that. Eleni: So, you know, you mentioned that hyperfocus really actually helps you with productivity, and you've figured out that what works for you is doing these longer nine-hour stints and just really absorbing yourself in that hyperfocus and in the writing. What led up to that realization?Ryan: Over the years, I've just learned to honor the way that I work and focus on the fact that when work is getting done, that's the main objective. Because there's a lot of advice out there about how you're supposed to work. Not just right, but how you're supposed to work. How you're supposed to organize yourself.And I think that some of that structure is really helpful for like outlining, and that's the one thing that I do have trouble with because I'm such a vibes person that like, when I have to sit down and like be meticulous, that's where I'm like, oh God, I'll never get through this. But I think just over the years, I realized that I just have to do it the way that I do it and the way that I get things done, and try to make everything else that I have to do and all my life responsibilities work around that. Eleni: I know that you've had other stints, like in other types of work. And I'm interested in how ADHD or dyslexia has come up for you in other settings, in other environments. And if that also contributed to you realizing what works for you and what doesn't. Are there any particular moments in previous jobs that you think have led you to where you are now?Ryan: When I worked in retail, it was just a mess, especially at the beginning when I had to stock shelves, which seems like a really simple thing to do, stocking shelves. But I get lost in my head a lot. So there were moments when I was moving fast, and then there were moments when I would just get in my head and just go off on tangents and like outwardly I would be putting things on the shelf in slow motion. And I wouldn't even realize that until my supervisors would come up and say "You need more urgency, Ryan, you need to move." And they had to keep telling me because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm just spaced out. And that really made me realize, OK, this like fast-paced kind of environment is maybe not for me. Not because I can't work fast, but just because my brain was just doing that.Eleni: So when your boss at the time came up to you and said "You got to work with more urgency, what are you doing?" how did that make you feel? How did you respond, and how did you come to a place that you were like, well, actually this environment isn't for me, like this isn't about me. This is just about the environment around me.Ryan: Oh, gosh, it took me so long to come to that realization. I just felt so misunderstood, and it really sucks to feel that way. Like, even if you explained it, because you might be able to explain it, but you just feel like if they're not also dealing with something like ADHD, they're just not going to get it. Or if they don't know someone, like they're not close to someone who has it to where they're exposed to it. When you say it, it might become worse because they might make fun of you for it. It's not always something where people are like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me help you." You know, you don't always get the response that you want to get. So it's hard.Eleni: So Ryan, can you tell us more about the book? And also how perhaps how you wrote it is influenced by your ADHD and dyslexia, and also how you consume books yourself. Ryan: The book is called "The Taking of Jake Livingston," and it's about a teen medium, Jake Livingston, who can see the dead. And his sanity starts to unravel in his junior year because he's being followed by the ghost of a school shooter.And this ghost wants to possess his body. So it's a coming of age story about a boy going to some pretty dark places and hopefully coming out the other side with a renewed sense of self. So it's like a superhero story, but it's told through a horror format. The seeing-ghosts stuff is an allegory for being spaced out and for having ADHD, and specifically having your traumas be the things that are distracting you Eleni: Interesting.Ryan: I don't think when I went down to write it, I was thinking "I'm going to do an allegory for ADHD." I think it just came out naturally in the way that you see this character navigate the world. And you can tell that he's not plugged in to conversations, like in the classroom, at home. He's always somewhere else in his own mind. And I think that using that angle really allowed me to put the experience of a queer Black teenager who was neurodivergent on the page in a way that satisfied horror readers and added an interesting angle to it. Eleni: And it sounds like there's a little, like a few parallels with what we were talking about earlier in terms of you coming out of the other side and coming to a place where you really own all of your identities.Ryan: Yeah. So the story really is about finding the people who support you, and not allowing the people who don't support you to control your life and control what you do. And it's that journey that kind of gives Jake strength against his villain, who just kind of wants him to be so — he wants him to feel dispossessed of himself in a literal way, but also in an emotional and psychological way. So, his mission throughout the story — the villain's mission — is to basically ruin Jake's support system, bring him away from his family, bring him more anxiety as he goes into school. Cause he goes to like a mostly white prep school where he feels like he doesn't have a voice. So he's triggering that throughout the book to make Jake feel depressed, to make him feel like he shouldn't live in his own body anymore. And that's the point when the ghost can possess the vessel, according to the rules of the dead world in this story. So it was about how Jake has to fortify those things about himself and really believe in himself, because that's what unlocks his ultimate power to banish the evil. Eleni: Wow. I love that allegory. So you mentioned mood reading. Can you talk a little bit about how the way you read books influences your writing style? Ryan: Yeah. So it's very fast-paced. The chapters are pretty short, and they switch between the hero's perspective and the villain's perspective. Mostly because I can't focus on one character for too long. But it's stuff like this that's, like just ADHD, that when people read it, they're like, oh, this is intriguing. Oh, it's fast-paced. And it's just like me not being able to focus. And it's not that I — it is that I made these choices, but I just know that when I'm writing it, I know the things that I need to do to stay engaged and to finish the book.So it's fast-paced because my brain is fast-paced, you know, and that's how I read. I read fast and I write fast, and it's nonlinear because I just can't stay in one place. So I think that, yes, it's, it's craft and it's done with intention, but it's also done because that's how my brain works, and the way that my brain works is how it translates on the page. And some people read it and say, "This pacing drives me crazy. Like I'm being beat over the head with events, like every chapter." I read a review from a teacher who was like "Every chapter is over the top. Every chapter is dramatic. Something crazy happens in every chapter."You can't win everyone, but that's what I love about it. I like that it stimulates you. And I think that people with ADHD when they pick it up, they don't have to worry about reading long info dumps or reading a lot of exposition, because you're in it and you're just in it. And you can flip pages and it's not wasting any time. Eleni: You mentioned being black, queer, non-binary, someone with ADHD and dyslexia. I imagine that these identities intersect in like really interesting ways. And I wanted to share with you what I've heard through my research is that people with layered identities have like two different experiences. One of the experiences is OK, well I'm already othered. I'm already on the margins. So it actually makes it easier to embrace all of the differences. And the other side of that, which I hear a lot, particularly from Black folks, is I'm already struggling to fit in to, you know, a white-dominant work culture and like, feels like there are more things stacked up against them. And I would love to hear like how intersectionality shows up for you. You know, myself, I'm like someone in my thirties and I'm looking at the TikTok generation and I'm like, wow. Like, it feels like you really are owning all of your identities. And as you said, you just state them in a very matter-of-fact way. And like I'm a little bit envious. It took me a really long time to like embrace my queer identity. And it's really amazing to see you being like, so open about all of these identities. So, I'm particularly interested in how they intersect, you know, what it is like to be Black, queer, and someone with a learning difference. Ryan: I was able to say that I was gay in my early twenties when I went to college just because I was surrounded by a supportive environment. As for my blackness, that was a whole different thing. And I think it intersects in the sense that when you're Black and gay, you're dealing with like discrimination from your own community. I grew up in a really religious community and being gay was not something that was celebrated. I definitely think the pivotal moment was being around people who understood that we exist and that we're not going anywhere, and realizing that you don't have to be around people who make you feel like you can't be your true self. And I think that's a hard thing to let go of for Black people, especially because we're like, community is so important for us. And we have community spaces because we have to convene and we have to stick together in the face of white supremacy. But when you are gay, you know, there's like this whole language about the masculinity of Black men and how we have to be masculine. And I'm just not. And it's like, where do you belong? Do you belong in the Black community? Do you want to be in the gay community? It's that feeling of just not having anywhere to go. So I just have had to find other queer Black friends who are, maybe neurodivergent, who would just understand what it means to move through the world in the way that I do and just rely on those friendships.Eleni: Totally. So how did you come to the point where you could be so comfortable with who you are? Ryan: On my journey to accepting myself, I just had to do a lot of research, first of all, and come to understand on my own why I didn't really fit in. And find other people like online or in real life who also didn't feel like they fit in, and just figure out what to do from there.And I really do think that at the beginning of that journey, it's about accepting yourself, knowing what you can change, knowing what you can't change, not stressing over things you can't change. And just like realizing that this is also a part of me. And all of it is part of me. This might sound weird, but I think that Twitter is a really helpful resource for finding friends and like other people who are just unapologetically Black, gay, have thinking differences, have disabilities. Around 2016, when we had — that's when the big social justice wave was starting — I got on Twitter and I started following activists. And just seeing the way that they talk about their identities, that they talk about their disabilities, or just the way that they own that and the way that they claimed it and spoke about it and spoke about the movement really inspired me. So the online community, when you're isolated, can be a lifesaver. Eleni: Definitely. So what would you say to the young people listening? What advice would you give them if they were in the same situation?Ryan: It's really just about communicating, owning your own flaws and your own behaviors in a way that kind of makes people understand it. And I think that when I was in those positions where I felt like I was doing something wrong, it made me choke up and it made me feel like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be fired. Or my gosh, I'm going to get an F. And I just was like, I'm a failure. And then it went on rotation in my brain. Oh gosh, I just suck.But that's not the case. And there are ways to kind of explain what's going on. And even if they don't understand it, at least you try to explain it. And I think that's something that I wish I knew, and I wish I knew how to sort of say to myself at first — it's OK that this is happening. Just try to express it rather than just think, oh, they're right. I suck at this job. Cause that's when your mind starts going and you just become your own worst enemy. Eleni: And it's interesting if you state it in a matter-of-fact way, it leaves it open to the other person to ask more questions if they want to ask more questions and show curiosity and understand you, you know, like a two-way street. If you're feeling misunderstood, that's probably because someone hasn't made the effort to understand, right?Ryan: Yeah. It's so much easier for me, not just with ADHD, but with all of my identities, to just state them and not overexplain. Because I know that people are not going to understand necessarily. But it's really not my responsibility, because there's so much info out there and anyone can look up things if they want to know. So I just am who I am and I say who I am, and it's up to everyone else to do the research. Eleni: So you've written your first book. What do you think is next for you? Ryan: So I'm working on several different projects. I think that the ADHD kind of becomes a detriment when it comes to the drafting process or like figuring out what I'm interested in enough about the world to translate it into a book and sustain a full narrative. And I'm actually, I think I might actually be a poet. I really had these dreams of having my stories put on screen. So that's kind of why I got into writing, because it's easier to put a novel on screen than it is to put poetry on screen. But I feel like I want to be able to bounce between genres and I don't always want to write young adult horror.But I'm still kind of learning my style. And some people want me to write a sequel to Jake Livingston, but I feel like I, uh, my ADHD will not allow me to write any more of that because I was like done with it. I was like, I focused on this for too long now. I just want to, I want to be free. Eleni: Awesome. Thanks for spending this time with me, Ryan. It was so fun to have a conversation with you. Ryan: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia Advocacy Runs in This Missouri Family
The Edwards family of Springfield, Missouri, is committed to making a difference for kids with dyslexia.Dad, mom and youngest daughter Madison (pictured above with Rep. Sandy Crawford, Decoding Dyslexia-Missouri member Marla McKan and Sen. Mike Parsons) are all familiar faces in the Missouri state capitol. Each has a unique voice that’s calling for changes to get more help for Missouri kids with reading struggles.The Edwardses’ family history might be familiar to lots of kids and adults with dyslexia. There’s dad Steve Edwards, who has dyslexia. But it wasn’t until Madison, 11, was identified with dyslexia in kindergarten that he discovered that he has dyslexia, too.That personal experience has made mom Jennifer Edwards passionate about dyslexia awareness in her state. She’s co-founder and president of Decoding Dyslexia-Missouri. And she’s on board for the long haul.“I know the changes we hope to make will probably come too late to help Madison,” notes Mrs. Edwards. “But we’re doing this for the next generation. I’m doing it for my grandchildren,” she explains.The Edwards family is focusing on four key areas. They advocate for:Better screening for dyslexiaMore training and better resources for teachersMore funding to identify and serve kids with dyslexia Curriculum developed by dyslexia specialists“In many ways we work as a team,” says Mr. Edwards. “Jennifer is doing the real lobbying work. … She knocks on doors … [with] the power of a mother who has no other agenda—no political agenda, no financial agenda.”Steve Edwards is president and CEO of CoxHealth. This local hospital system has some 10,000 employees. His position gives him opportunities to talk about dyslexia with key officials. “I help get school superintendents to meet with us,” he explains. “I help get legislators to meet with us. Our hospital lobbyist is working on behalf of this,” he notes.And, he adds, “We consider it an extension of our mission [at CoxHealth]. Our board has been supportive, as has our board chairman.” In fact, CoxHealth funds grants for dyslexia screening and teacher training. The not-for-profit Springfield Center for Dyslexia and Learning is located on the CoxHealth campus. The center opened in late 2015.The family’s efforts have been recognized, both locally and in Jefferson City, the Missouri capital. Mr. Edwards is a native of Springfield, and not long ago he was inducted into the public schools’ hall of fame as an outstanding graduate.At the awards ceremony, he shared his difficult school start. He talked about how he wasn’t reading when he started second grade. He then got help and learned to read. “By the end of third grade, I was reading pretty well,” he recalls.Madison, who’s now a fifth grader, is also doing well, her parents say. She has an Individualized Education Program (IEP) in a public school.And she’s a budding advocate. Madison has appeared before state lawmakers and plans to appear again. She’s helping to push for bills that would create best practices for Missouri schools in addressing dyslexia. She’s excited to speak up for herself and for other kids with dyslexia, her parents confirm.It runs in the family.Find out what to do if you think your child could have dyslexia. And learn how you can advocate for kids and adults with learning and thinking differences.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!“Math dyslexia” can’t stop this chef and business owner
Raquel Fleetwood says cooking is her zen, peace, and love. It’s a place where her trouble with math and anxiety fade away, and learning is natural. By the time Raquel Fleetwood was diagnosed with a learning disability at age 8, she had already discovered her passion: cooking. By 16, inspired by her Black-Latina roots, she was selling cheese flans in NYC. Each gig that followed built her confidence more and more. Now, Raquel is the owner and chef of a catering company that delivers 75,000 meals in an average year. Listen to hear how Raquel turned her love of food into a career. Learn her secret for managing challenges with math, spoken language, and organization as an adult. And get her advice on how to make your strengths shine when you have learning differences.Listen in. Then:Watch a video of a chef with learning differences who went back to college.Take a quiz to find your career superstar.Read how a skateboarder with dyslexia started his business.Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.I absolutely love food. So I'm really excited for our next guest. Raquel Fleetwood is a chef and caterer in Los Angeles who draws culinary inspiration from her Black and Puerto Rican roots. In a typical year, her company delivers 75,000 catered meals a year. She has dyslexia and other learning differences. She also struggles with things like spoken language, math, and organization. So Raquel, welcome to the show.Raquel: Thanks for having me.Eleni: Of course. So, yeah, I'm really excited to talk about food, and I'm really looking forward to hearing how you made that your career. So tell us a little bit about your job.Raquel: I'm the owner and chef of Catered By Raquel in Long Beach, California. And I am a full-time mom.Eleni: Four kids and a business.Raquel: Four kids and a business.Eleni: So, you're a chef and a caterer. Have you always loved cooking? And what do you love about it?Raquel: I've always loved cooking. My mom worked a lot when I was growing up; she was back in school to get her PhD. And I grew up on the Upper West Side of New York with a mother that didn't cook. So she would always order in; everything was takeout, which is, I guess, good for some people, but I remember figuring out at a super early age that if I learned how to cook, I could make anything I wanted. So I remember being 4 and trying to work my way into my grandmother's kitchen. And she eventually got tired of kicking me out, and they gave me a stool so I could reach the counter.Eleni: How very New York of your mother to order takeout every day.Raquel: Oh my gosh. She's like, I'm the best chef ever. Here's my phone numbers. These are all the numbers.Eleni: Yeah. And when you snuck into the kitchen, was there anything in particular that you liked about being in the kitchen or that you liked cooking — any favorite meals?Raquel: I just, I've always been attracted to it. My mom has stories of when I was a kid; she would put on "Sesame Street" and she would come in and Julia Child would be on the TV. So I always referred to Julia Child as my Big Bird. Cooking is where I met my zen, my peace, my love. It's a place where my nervousness, my anxiety, it doesn't play a role anywhere. And you know, I have trouble with numbers and math. And math and numbers, when it comes to food, it always makes sense. I'm grateful to have honed in on my talent super young.Eleni: Yeah, super young, 3 or 4.Raquel: Super young. Yep. My whole life.Eleni: Yeah. So, Raquel, you grew up in New York City, and, you know, you were diagnosed with dyslexia when you were 8. Do you want to talk a little bit about what it was like going to school in New York? Talk a little bit about struggles in school and, you know, anything that you want to share about that.Raquel: Yeah. I grew up on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, 93rd between Central Park West and Columbus. I lived in the same building for 27 years. So, I remember vividly starting the process of being tested. And, you know, my mom's a psychologist, so I think things might've been a little bit easier for me than some, because she was super, sometimes overly understanding of the whole thing. And in school I always had one friend. I was never the popular one. I'm an only child. And I have four kids, which is kind of ironic. I was never the one to play first, and I'm still not. So I think that growing up, it translated into who I am now, where I only have a couple of, like, really close friends. I can't really deal with too many personalities at once. And I kind of flew under the radar at school.You know, I graduated high school. I did what I had to do. Bare-bones, bare minimum. I was supposed to go to culinary school and I didn't, because my mom said she didn't want me to go to culinary school because if I went and graduated and I decided I didn't want to cook, then I wouldn't have something to have like a backup as. So I actually went to school for early childhood development and failed miserably.I took a math class like four times. And then just left. I missed out on an associate's degree for one class, because I just, I couldn't do it anymore. And I've always had issues, like, if I'm not interested in something, I really don't care. It's real easy for me to just look at a sparkly thing in the room and go somewhere else. So, I think I figured out actually later in life that there was a connection between having a learning disability and still being confident. I know sometimes that's where it affects people, in their confidence. But I think through food, through cooking, it kept me confident.Eleni: You were able to find something that you were really good at and then gain your confidence through that rather than focusing on the things that maybe were a little bit more challenging in school.Raquel: Exactly.Eleni: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, it's so rare to hear that people find their passion at the age of 3 or 4. I barely have memories from that age, you know? And you know, it sounded like you were pretty clear about what you wanted to study but then kind of pivoted into this other direction. How did you eventually find your way back to the food industry?Raquel: It took a while. I had gotten a gig at, like, 16 in New York selling my cheese flans to a restaurant that I worked for.Eleni: What is a cheese flan?Raquel: It's a traditional Puerto Rican flan dish — tastes more like a hybrid between a flan and a cheesecake. So I was pumping out cheese flans out my mom's oven. Thought I was something.And then I went to college. Didn't graduate. Wound up being in retail for, like, 10 years. I was a retail manager. I didn't like it, per se, but I was good at it because the methodical folding and making sure the stuff is perfect and square and even, and all the visual displays, that was the best part. The people were just not my thing.And even to this day with the cooking, sometimes I'm like, "You know, I wish I could just cook for nobody." Because it's always the people aspect of it all that throws me off a little. But then I wound up meeting my husband. We had our first child, and I was approached about catering our — this was 10 years ago now — catering our Christmas party for our subdivision we lived in. And I was like, "OK." She was like, "It's 160 people," and I'm, you know, "Fake it till you make it. Sure, why not?" And came in there and made it all look really pretty, and the food tasted really good. And I was able to do that for a couple of years, and I also was getting jobs. The word was kind of getting out. So I had jobs here and there.And then when I moved to California, my husband worked for a company that catered their lunch every day. So they were like, "Oh, well, does your wife cater? And does she want to cater for us once a week?" And I was like, "Sure, why not?" So it was like a mad dash to cook for 200 people.Eleni: Wow.Raquel: Pregnant at the time, with two other kids and no childcare. So it was a lot of fun.Eleni: Wow. That sounds intense.Raquel: And then from there, they gave me the full program. So I was their corporate chef for three years, before the pandemic.Eleni: Wow. So when the neighbor approached you, you had never actually done catering before. They just knew you were a good cook and they asked you to do it.Raquel: I did it when my mom's friends and stuff would have parties; I would do it for them. And again, the artistic part of me, it was always really good at making stuff look pretty. And that, definitely, it helped tailor my craft.Eleni: Yeah.Raquel: So I had experience here and there, but it was never for anyone I didn't know.Eleni: It was a little bit more of a hobby.Raquel: Yes.Eleni: And then it evolved into something a little bit more serious.Raquel: I had worked in kitchens younger, as a teenager, but it was never my thing. I definitely have a tough skin and stuff, but the demand working, you know, 15, 16 hours straight, to then double — I just, it's not me.Eleni: Yeah.Raquel: So the catering was a really great way for me to be able to cook and still have a life, essentially.Eleni: Yeah. And it's important to have balance, especially when you have four kids.Raquel: And they're little — we've got a 9, 7, 4, and 1. So, yeah, it's exciting. I just need them to get older so they can help with the company. I'm like, "Come wash these dishes."Eleni: I'm sure they will be super cute doing it. That's great. So I personally definitely prefer to cook than bake, and a big part of it is I just cannot follow a recipe. Like, I always want to change it a little bit and mix it up.Raquel: Yeah, not with baking.Eleni: Yeah. So for me, cooking is a little bit more of a creative outlet. Is it similar for you?Raquel: Yeah, I think baking is definitely more of a science. We can mess it up, but it's not my forte, baking. I still do it. And I still mess around with the recipes. And that's the biggest thing with cooking. I always tell people, "Don't be afraid to make mistakes, because it can either come out absolutely disgusting or you could make something that you really like, so why not try, you know?"Eleni: Yeah. Do you think that in terms of baking and following a recipe, do you think any struggles with reading have anything to do with that at all?Raquel: No. And again, the only numbers that make sense to me and my head are food measurements. So cups, quarters, converting grams. That just — it's so easy. But if you ask me to, like, do a simple math problem, I had to hire tutors to do homework when my second and third grader, and they learn math all kinds of different now. So I, you know, it still plays a big role. And my sense of direction is terrible. I can't go to the corner store without my GPS. My husband makes fun of me all the time. But yeah, cooking and numbers, like, I'm able to convert the recipes in my head really quick. It makes sense. I can see it in my brain, and in my brain it makes sense. Whereas with other numbers and, you know, applying math to things, when I see it in my brain, it just, there's no translation to it. It's just numbers. I can't apply it to anything.Eleni: That's so interesting. So what kind of food do you like to cook, and what influences some of the cuisine that you serve or your recipes?Raquel: Yeah. Right now we do just about anything. So we're known for doing custom menus. So, recently we had a Filipino repast, and they wanted me to do all traditional Filipino food. And I think the best thing about being a chef in 2022 is that if you know food, you can figure out how to cook the recipe. And, you know, once I'm able to look at recipes, I can make sense of it and be like, that's too much salt, or that needs more, or that's not enough garlic. So, I'm able to do basically whatever the client wants. And I am a foodie myself, growing up on the Upper West Side, being of mixed race, you know, having that Upper West Side melting pot really helped develop my palate.Eleni: And that's so cool that you can just kind of look at recipes and then bring your own —Raquel: Yeah, I can taste stuff, too, and I can tell you what's in it. So if I taste something, for the most part I can replicate the recipe.Eleni: I love it. So you just mentioned being mixed race, and we talked about it a little bit in the introduction. Do you want to share a little bit about how your ethnic background has had an influence on your cooking and your career? And then also maybe how it's played a part in other parts of your identity? And even how your learning differences have been perceived.Raquel: I love the question. I was raised by my Puerto Rican side. So, even though I am half Black, I do identify as Latina, and I'm fluent in Spanish. It's like my thing. We got married in Puerto Rico.Eleni: Oh, lovely.Raquel: And I feel like I was able to discover my Black side through food. So, yeah, when I moved to Atlanta, like, really being able to discover my roots. Their food was, like, amazing. I gained, like, 35 pounds —Eleni: Worth it!Raquel: Because I was eating mac and cheese, all the yumminess, fried chicken. But definitely felt more in touch with my dad's side through food, and have memories. Every now and then, I would go to one of his family members' house for Thanksgiving and like smelling the collard greens. So, like, even to this day, the smell of collard greens reminds me of his side. So really identifying who I am through food. There's a, such a push on my part, I feel like, to be able to expose people to what Puerto Rican food is, which is a mixture between the African slaves that they brought over, the Spanish, and then the Natives, they're called Taíno Indians. So it's more African-forward than what a Mexican dish would be.Eleni: That's amazing.Raquel: Yeah.Eleni: So, given that you love the cooking aspects but not so much the customer-client side, do you think that you'll stay in catering? Or are you thinking about other ways to incorporate cooking into your life or another business?Raquel: We're thinking about it. It's not as easy as it was pre-pandemic. I think that the food costs are astronomical. The same brisket that cost me, like, $36 before the pandemic now cost me $100. So, the increase in food prices and people just not understanding. And they're, like, "Well, this is too expensive." And I'm like, "I can't make any money to be able to pay a storefront."And you know, it's not that I don't like the client. It's more that the confrontation or the idea of confrontation and having to work my way through it, which I'm actually really good at, even though inside I'm, like, screaming, it's the anticipation and the anxiety of having to deal with people. Because they're spending a lot of money and it's warranted, but I don't want to deal with it. So I think me and my husband were talking more about possibly going more toward the TV food side.Eleni: That's interesting.Raquel: Yeah. So we'll see.Eleni: Well, earlier in the conversation, you said that while you struggled at school, you were able to have cooking as something that you were able to focus on and really enjoy. You mentioned struggle with math but it doesn't really come up in terms of recipes and things. Are there any struggles that come up that are related to your differences at work?Raquel: With cooking? Oh yeah. The organization part of it. You're supposed to be super neat. And my brain was just firing. It's firing, and I want to do like a million things at once, so then I look around and, like, the kitchen's on the floor. So, like, I've hired people specifically to clean up after me because you know, my brain’s just like, ah, like, “I can't, I can't do it.” I tried. I've done well sometimes, but it's not fun. That's a bit of a struggle, the organization part of it. You know, sometimes, you know, the ability for me to organize my thoughts definitely comes through on the cooking side.Eleni: Yeah. How do you think that relates to your differences, or do you think it relates to your differences?Raquel: Oh, I totally think it does. I think now, you know, at 40 years old, I know myself, so it doesn't bother me. It used to bother me. My saying was "I get on my own nerves." But now I know to step back. And I also think that it's really important, if you have a learning disability or not, owning a business, to surround yourself with people that balance you out, that can take up for your weakness. So, I tell people, "I don't need a five-star chef. I just need somebody that's organized, that can clean, that doesn't mind doing dishes, all that stuff." I've been able to kind of balance myself out with my staff. And I tell them the organization on my end is shot, and I'll have to sit there with a pen and paper because even the phone gets annoying. And I write everything down so that I can see my list of things, because if I leave it up to my brain, it's going to jumble it all up and mess it up. But again, you know, I also think that being learning disabled, when you immerse yourself in a day-to-day activity that causes you to have those issues and figure it out, the more it happens, the less it bothers you, the less anxiety there is behind it. Because you know that you fixed it before, and you fix it every time, so this time shouldn't be any different.Eleni: And, you know, you've mentioned being a mother and having four kids. Are there any challenges that come up related to learning differences when you're parenting?Raquel: Sometimes my patience. That's why I had to hire a tutor for my second and third grader, because I couldn't do it. And then my oldest daughter, who's 9, just got diagnosed with dyslexia.Eleni: Oh, wow.Raquel: So we have her in a special program to get her caught up. And I do think that me having it and letting her know — I'm being very vocal about it. I can't stress enough, especially being in the Black and Latino community, how that was seen as, like, a handicap. And it's not.The main thing as a parent with a child that has a learning disability is to make sure that you figure out what they were put here for. Hone in on it and run with it because it's about building that confidence as a kid.My daughter, she's super into science and drawing and art. She wants to be an animal scientist. So stuff like that, just really trying to make sure they're doing something on a daily basis that makes them feel good about themselves. And I feel like it counteracts the other stuff.Eleni: And you mentioned in the Black and Latinx community, there are some perceptions of differences being handicaps, I think is the word that you used. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what your view is on that? How stigma comes up, and how you have handled that within your own community or family?Raquel: I think it's just kind of embedded in who we are, because we're coming from generations where there was no exposure to this. People didn't know; you were just special. You know what I mean? So now that they're able to actually break it down and specifically tell you, it's kind of lightening the load. But I think that again, within the Black and Latino community, because there's so much more exposure to this stuff, I do feel like it's getting better. But it takes people to talk about it to see that you can still be super successful and be OK.Eleni: That's great. Do you have any advice for people that are thinking about starting a business that perhaps was previously a hobby or a passion, especially if they have some sort of learning difference?Raquel: You know, I think that if you have someone — I got lucky enough, my husband is in marketing. So I guess I did it with my marriage too. So I kind of filled in where I lacked. And just really making sure that you have someone that backs you that maybe knows more about business than you do, if you don't know anything about it, and to do it. Because if you don't try, you already failed. You know what I mean? Like, the worst that happens is you fall on your behind and you're still better off. You're more experienced than had you not tried at all. I have my days here with four kids and I want to pull my hair out, and I get in my car and I go to my kitchen and I blast my music and I mind my business, and it's the best feeling ever. I really appreciate it, because I know that a lot of chefs don't get to experience that. And I always used to say growing up, that, when I died, I would go to Heaven and be in the kitchen by myself with music playing.Eleni: And you can do it while you're alive.Raquel: And I didn't have to die to do it!Eleni: Thanks so much for being on the show, Raquel. It was so great having you.Raquel: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" was created by Andrew Lee and is produced by Gretchen Vierstra and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia in high school: 4 signs you might see
Some teens who seem awkward or unmotivated may actually be struggling with dyslexia. It can affect a bunch of skills, from reading to understanding puns or driving a car. Here are some of the signs of dyslexia in high school.1. Trouble expressing ideas Dyslexia can make it hard to find the right words, develop ideas, and communicate them in a logical, organized way. Teens with dyslexia might stammer a lot or have trouble finding the right word to say. At school, this can look like difficulty expressing ideas — like making a point or supporting an argument. 2. Struggling with foreign language The same issues that make it hard for kids with dyslexia to read and write in their native language make it even harder to learn a foreign language. High-schoolers with dyslexia might dread the school’s foreign language requirement and feel doomed by it. Teens with dyslexia may guess at what foreign words mean and how they’re pronounced. 3. Not getting the joke Dyslexia can affect the ability to process all kinds of language. This makes it hard to understand humor and other tricky language. Teens with dyslexia might need someone to explain punch lines, especially when there are puns or hidden meanings. 4. Trouble navigatingTeens with dyslexia often struggle with spatial concepts and related things like driving and navigation. They might still confuse left and right. At school, that can look like trouble reading charts and graphs. See more ways dyslexia can affect daily life. And find out what to do if you think your child might have dyslexia.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Undiagnosed dyslexia and low self-esteem: Becoming a fashion designer
Rohan Chhabra found out he had dyslexia in grad school. Then he understood his insecurity around his intelligence — and why he was drawn to the arts. Rohan Chhabra found out he had dyslexia during graduate school by tagging along with a friend to her evaluation. He went in knowing nothing about dyslexia — and came out with a diagnosis. After learning more about it, so many things about how his brain worked finally made sense. Dyslexia had been guiding his life and his career choices, and he hadn’t even realized it.Growing up in India, Rohan was a quiet kid who worried about keeping up with academic classes. He gravitated toward creative fields that relied on drawing instead of writing. After getting his master’s degree in industrial design, Rohan worked for fashion titans like Nike and Ralph Lauren. But his passion for animals and the environment pulled him in another direction. Now, he creates digital fashion sold as NFTs.Related resourcesDyslexia and anxiety in kidsHow dyslexia is diagnosed after high schoolNike’s chief of design shares how dyslexia made him see the world differentlyEpisode transcriptRohan: So we went ahead with the tests and then came out and were like, "Oh, you're dyslexic. Do you you — were you ever diagnosed with this?" And I was like, "No, I have no idea what it even means." And so then I went home, researched more about it, and everything started falling into place. Like why things felt the way they felt.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.School settings often aren't tailor-made for people with learning and thinking differences. My guest, Rohan Chhabra, often felt insecure in school in India. It wasn't until he was in graduate school for industrial design that he learned that he had dyslexia. That diagnosis unlocked resources that helped him succeed at his master's and launch a career in design. He's worked for brands like Ralph Lauren and Nike and is now working in the realm of digital fashion that is sold as NFTs. We'll get to that.Rohan considers dyslexia a big piece of who he is as a creator. His work is also informed by his commitment to social issues like endangered animals and the environment. Rohan, welcome to the show.Rohan: Hey, Eleni.Eleni: So I know that you weren't diagnosed with dyslexia until you were in college, so I thought that might be a nice place to start. Could you tell me a little bit about how your late diagnosis came about?Rohan: Yeah, it was interesting. I was, you know, this is back in London when I was doing my master's. It was just the beginning of my course. And I was hanging out with one of my classmates and she knew she was dyslexic. And I didn't even know what dyslexic means at that point. So she said, like, "Hey, you know what? Maybe I'm going for a test. Do you want to hang around? And then we can go get some drinks afterwards?" I was like, "Yeah, that sounds like a great plan." I was just excited by the drinks.So then we go ahead and since I was at the center, they asked me like, "Hey, are you here for the test too?" So I was like, "Not really, but what is this test?" And they were like, "Oh, it's a dyslexia test. Like, do you want to, you know, partake in it?" My friend is like, "Yeah, do it. Like, What the hell?" The exciting part for me was that it was going to be a few extra days for submissions if you're dyslexic, right? And you get a free computer and you get like a voice recorder and a few other freebies. So I was like, "OK, that sounds amazing. I don't know what this is, but let me try."Eleni: You're in it for the perks.Rohan: Yeah. So I went ahead with the test and they came out and were like, "Oh, you're dyslexic. Were you ever diagnosed with this?" And I was like, "No, I have no idea what it even means." And so then I went home, researched more about it, and then realized, like my whole life I was kind of, you know, just — it kind of started — everything started falling into place. Like, why things felt the way they felt.Eleni: Yeah. So it's so interesting because it sounds like you were just at the right place at the right time, and it was kind of completely random that that opportunity came about. Do you think that your friend had some sense that maybe you had dyslexia and she was kind of nudging you in the right direction?Rohan: Kinda. I think she she kind of sensed it just because whenever I was in the classroom, I can never make notes because I can never write that fast, you know. Or, you know, follow too many instructions at one point. So I'm always like the guy who's asking after the class, "Hey, what happened? Like, what was that about, what was this about?" You know, trying to catch up? So she kind of sensed it, I think.I feel much more confident now than I what I used to, just because, you know, growing up was, you know, with a lot of insecurities and with a lot of fear of, you know, not being smart enough.Eleni: Yeah, and I know that you mentioned that a lot of things fell into place for you. And, you know, we often hear that a lot with people that get diagnosed later in life that they start to piece things together. So, do you have like any standout memories of things that make a lot more sense now that are related to your dyslexia that you've reflected upon?Rohan: Definitely. I think what I realized as being dyslexic, I was always focusing more on the bigger picture, you know, because if I go too much in details, it used to like get me rounded out with too many intricacies. And what I always excelled in was the big-picture thinking — thinking out like out of the box, like thinking about the bigger concept. And that was a thing which always was kind of working for me, you know, like stepping out and looking at it from from the top rather than being from the point of view, you know?Eleni: Yeah, definitely. And yeah, it's so important to be able to identify what your strengths are and really lean into that in your work. Before we get to that, I know that you mentioned feeling, like, really insecure and anxious as a child. And I'm curious, like, what kind of made a difference to you and how did you build that confidence? How did you get to that place?Rohan: Actually, I didn't get to that place till I entered college. My whole childhood, it was kind of very traumatizing just because, first of all, I was growing up in small towns in India. And the education system wasn't very modern, so there was no really focus on the art outside of stuff, music or painting or whatever. So it was very academic centric.And while growing up, you know, there was a lot of fear because the era I grew up in, which is surprising because I'm not that old. But there was an era where teachers were, you know, kind of not very nice. They would hit you and stuff like that. So I had a very timid personality growing up just because I was so insecure about what I can do. I always felt pretty dumb just because I was not able to cope up with everyone else until I entered college. And I was studying fashion design at that point. That was a space where I felt, you know, for the first time in my life, I felt like, oh, this feels comfortable. Like I felt like I could, you know, communicate my thoughts through sketches. I didn't have to rely on writing stuff or reading stuff. I had more time to articulate my thoughts, to put things together.And I was never in a, you know, a test phase where, you know, I had to complete an exam in like two hours or something. I always had a little more time where I could plan and execute. So at that point — and I had a really great mentor who actually really encouraged me and actually got me out of my shell. And that's when I actually really flourished in terms of my personality and also in my work.Eleni: Yeah. We hear that a lot, that mentors can have a really big influence. Like, in what way did that, you know, help you? What did you what did you learn from that mentor?Rohan: I think it was a few things. One of the things was there is no bad idea. You just need to take it to the next level. So, you know, stuff like that where nobody was kind of basically shooting down ideas, but there was a really openness to how we ideate stuff and how creative we can get. I really felt like during my bachelor's when I was studying fashion, I really felt like there was a space where I could do pretty much anything I wanted to.So part of me, growing up in India I actually wanted to study industrial design. There are only a very few colleges in India who actually do that course. So I ended up doing fashion, but part of me actually wanted to do more industrial design. So with my mentor, she kind of understood that. And she allowed me to kind of treat fashion in that way, which was really interesting for me. So I was not kind of designing for trends, but I was designing more for lifestyle, you know, more for functionality, more for storytelling, which was something I really enjoyed. So, you know, I had that open space even when I was doing my bachelor's.One thing led to the other that I actually got a full scholarship to study at Central Saint Martins and pursue my master's in industrial design, which was my dream. So that's when I found out about dyslexia, when I was in London. And I really used it more like a superpower then, more than anything I was always so worried about. So because now that I understood that part of my brain works in that way, I was actually I was able to push it to another limit.Eleni: I know that you mentioned that you got into your dream course. And I know last time we spoke, you also mentioned getting into your dream job after you graduated. Do you want to talk a little bit about that experience?Rohan: So, you know, growing up in India, Nike is such a big brand that has such a big presence, you know, emotionally, and the way it kind of impacts culture. So even though I didn't have a Nike sneaker till I was in high school or college, I believe, I was obsessed with it. So I used to like, you know, sketch shoes day in, day out, like in my notebooks and everywhere I could draw. Like there were just sneakers everywhere. So that was kind of a dream growing up that I wanted to work at Nike and be a sneaker designer and do, you know, clothing, whatever. So after I graduated from Central Saint Martins, I was lucky. And I got a job at the European headquarters in Amsterdam to work as a product designer for Nike, which was really cool.Eleni: I always get in trouble for saying "nike" in America. They're very funny about saying "Nike" in Australia. We just say "nike." But yeah. What kind of surprised you about working at Nike? You know, what kind of led to you moving on and doing something different?Rohan: Yeah, I guess once I entered, you know, the beast. I call it the beast because you're — it's such a big mechanism, right? It's a big, big organization that's working and it's so many thousands of people inside. I very quickly realized that this is not what I wanted to do. And what I wanted to do was to save endangered wildlife. And so my childhood dream kind of shifted from designing sneakers to actually designing for saving wildlife. Because I realized that's something I was more passionate about than anything else. And it was a realization that happened over a period of time and through exposure.So after two years of working in Nike, I quit and I started, you know, I moved back to India, to my parents' basement, and I started making these garments. So a lot of my jackets were an archetype of a hunting jacket. And these hunting jackets became into the hunted animal trophy. So the hunter becomes the hunted. So it was metaphorically talking about, you know, the garment being a second skin for one's personality. And you yourself didn't see yourself as a hunted, poached animal. Which kind of took me to another route in my career. And part of what I did was to inform people about the issue that how so many species are getting endangered and, you know, because of hunting, poaching, and habitat loss, etc.It took me about a year to complete the project. And since then I did like a batch production, which means basically like five to six jackets of each animal. And I had chosen five of the keystone species like the tiger, the elephant, and the gorillas, and the rhino. You know, during my master's, I had a realization that the most important thing and the most important definition of good design is to embody ethics. And that kind of stuck with me for even till now. And I hope to do more for this cause going into the future in any different ways I can, in multiple different directions and applications.Eleni: I know that you also ended up working at Ralph Lauren at some point. And, you know, he's considered a fairly iconic American designer. How has your experience living in different countries perhaps shaped how you showed up in that role?Rohan: Ralph Lauren was interesting. It was kind of going more fashion and something that was slightly outside my realm, you know, because I was always focused on the art side of things or the functionality side of things or, you know, kind of more on the social commentary of stuff. And this was like a really commercial space, you know, where you're talking about a very iconic American brand creating a timeless design. So I had to like switch cogs in my brain about how I think about this thing.And I think that's the thing about being a designer. Sometimes you have to maybe just, you know, how you react to a brief. Sometimes you have to switch around your your thought process. You know, the same thought process cannot work for everything. So, yeah, I had to, you know, focus more on being more commercial and, you know, kind of bringing a similar thought process into that world, which often had a lot of backlash because, you know, from my merchants and from from my planners. They would be like, oh, this, you know, this is too ambitious or like this is too crazy. I always like pushing, pushing everyone to the limit to see what can be done and what cannot be done.So for me, it was like a super-interesting time because I learned a lot. I definitely learned a lot. Like how to actually make business sense of things, which was really important. Also to, you know, work with different people. And dyslexia was kind of always a thing that used to, you know, come in my way of like sometimes executing certain tasks. So I had to work with my team members to make them understand what this is and you know, how my brain works and how maybe we can work together to make this work. I had to kind of figure out, you know, that I was a guy who was definitely not making any notes because in a meeting, because nobody would understand my notes. The team was super, super helpful and supportive in letting me kind of function in that way.Eleni: Again, it's like really important to acknowledge, like, you know, where you need support and where your strengths are and where where you need a little bit of extra help. And that's OK.I know that you're still designing, not necessarily like physical clothing. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you're designing now and, you know, maybe explain it in the most simple way, like pretend I'm 5?Rohan: Yeah, absolutely. So what happened is that, you know, I've been in the fashion industry for so long now and — or you can see it like the whole textile industry. And what I realize is that the fashion industry is actually really bad for the environment, right? Because of the amount of waste we create, the amount of water we use, the amount of land we encroach from natural habitat for growing cotton or growing whatever. And it's just a very, very harmful industry for the planet. Ethics was always a big part of my life growing up and for me, as personally as a creator. And this was not falling into place.And so I was definitely looking for different outlets to be creative. And for a very long time I kept searching and I had few answers. One was that I do not produce so much stuff, right, and I do something on my own, which is kind of creating more like art objects, right? The other option was blockchain technology. So when I got to know more about blockchain technology, which is which is a mind-blowing technology, because it's basically you can you can track everything who creates an asset to where it goes. You can actually see the chain of transaction. So it's basically like an open ledger, right? Which is really interesting because it changes everything. It basically decentralizes the whole system, how creative work, how artists work, and who gets the credit for what, right?So for the first time, you can actually create something digitally and still own that piece of artwork and be able to sell it further. But unlike how art galleries used to do it — they used to buy it at a cheaper price from you and then sell it at a fortune rate and you would not get any of the returns. But what happens if it's an NFT, you actually get royalty for every seal that happens onward. So as a creative, you're still getting paid. I got into it because of the sustainability part of it, just because I felt like I was able to do something really crazy and creative but not have that big a carbon footprint.So I got more into it. And now I work with a company called Space Runners. And Space Runners is a fashion metaverse brand. And what that means is that we have created a metaverse, a virtual space. You can just log in from the website or from the app, and you'll have a digital avatar of your own self. And you can select whatever you want to be — male, female, robot, creature, anything you want to be, right? And what you can do is in that space, you can, of course, try clothing like digital clothing for your avatar. You can purchase them, you can upgrade them, you can sell them, you can make money out of them. You know, it's a space where you can interact with your friends. So now what we're trying to create is digital fashion for a digital space for your digital avatar.Eleni: Given that you've mentioned like the environmental impact a couple times, I feel like I have to ask how you feel about the environmental impact of crypto.Rohan: Yeah, that's a big question that always comes around as as I talk about this. Yes, there are two ways, two ways to look at it, right? So the fashion industry has been trying to get sustainable for the last 20, 30 years, right? Or let's say 10 years more aggressively. And we haven't made much progress, right? It's a very slow progress to what we were all expecting. And, you know, with crypto and with blockchain, there's always been this question of like, yes, there has been, you know, a lot of electricity that is actually required to run these nodes, as they call it.But, you know, already, if you see there has been a lot of advancement done in it already, where they're trying to fix it. So we have new kind of tokens, new kinds of coins or currencies, which actually are more sustainable, that take less energy to run, which are already like steps taken in in less than a year or two, you know. Compared to what fashion has done in the last 15 years. So at the rate at which we are going, even in terms of sustainability and technology advancement in the next five years, you know, only time will tell what happens. So let's see.Eleni: Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that perspective. I know, you know, this isn't the first time that you've worked with sneakers, obviously, at Nike and now at Space Runners. Do you want to talk a little bit about some of the similarities and differences between designing for a physical sneaker versus a digital one? And, you know, some of the things that you've learned from those experiences.Rohan: Absolutely. I think that's been a good discovery, honestly, because when you actually design a physical sneaker, you are thinking about, of course, the design part of it, like how it looks esthetically. But you're also thinking about like, oh, is this a winter boot or is this a summer boot? Right? You're thinking about what kind of climate you're going to wear it and what kind of conditions you're going to have. Is it going to be raining? Is it going to be, you know, all these different functionality that you think about when you design a sneaker, right?And and none of those factors exist in the metaverse. Like there's no climate, you know, so you do not have a problem to solve. And when you do not have a problem to solve, it kind of becomes more and more tricky for a designer. So yeah, so it is kind of interesting because we at Space Runners, what we do is we first think of what the problem is going to be, so we create our own problems.So for example, in our new collection, it's kind of based around the idea of science fiction, right? So you're in space and you're in a different world, so you have different problems. For example, no gravity, for example. You know, you might need to fly around or you might need to levitate around just because there are different atmospheric conditions. So we take into those considerations and you call that, OK, those are interesting problems to solve.And then as as designers, then we start resolving them by coming up with crazy solutions because we don't have to create them physically. So we can basically create anything that we think could be interesting fictionally too. So a lot of the products we design are actually references to science fiction. So a lot of the Space Runners sneakers you can actually fly and — or kind of levitate in the metaverse. And they kind of give you different utilities and different functionalities that real products in real life cannot give you.Eleni: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story.Rohan: And thank you for the opportunity.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This shows is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia success stories
Kids with dyslexia can face many challenges. But knowing that others have faced the same issues — and succeeded — can be a huge source of encouragement. Share these dyslexia triumphs with your child.
ADHD Aha!ADHD and dyslexia, and the reading anxiety that comes with both (Carol’s story)
Carol Blumenstein was called an unteachable student. Now, she knows she has ADHD and dyslexia, and supports her five kids who learn differently, too. Growing up, Carol Blumenstein was labeled an unteachable student. She was terrified to read during class, and school only brought huge anxiety. Luckily, her mom believed in her in a way teachers didn’t. She put Carol in community college courses and pushed her to turn her frustration into motivation.Carol didn’t know she had ADHD and dyslexia until she saw her own children — all five of them — struggle with the same things she did when she was little. But this time the issues were addressed and they were understood by their teachers.Now, Carol’s kids have founded their own organization, KidsRead2Kids, which provides free video audiobooks read by kids for kids and other helpful resources.Related resourcesVideo: Why do ADHD and dyslexia co-occur so often?Dyslexia and anxiety in kidsADHD and anxietyCarol’s family’s organization, KidsRead2KidsEpisode transcriptCarol: I remember I had a math teacher who was convinced that math was my worst subject. And my mother thought about it, and she's like, "That's ridiculous!" And so, she actually put me in computer programming when I was about 12 years old. And lo and behold, I was the best in the class. And I was a little kid and I was with college students. Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. I am here today with Carol Blumenstein. Carol is the executive director of KidsRead2Kids. KidsRead2Kids is an organization that provides free video audiobooks read by kids for kids, along with lesson plans and other helpful resources. You can find more information at KidsRead2Kids.com. I also need to mention that Carol is the mother of five kids. Five kids who have learning differences — like dyslexia and ADHD — and her kids are the founders of the organization, which is so cool. Carol, welcome. Thank you for being here with me today. Carol: Laura, thank you. I am so happy and honored to be here with you. Laura: I'm amazed that you even have time to talk to me today, Carol. Carol: You know what? Very good time management. Laura: Carol. So, like your kids, you also have learning and thinking differences. You yourself have ADHD and dyslexia. And I have to say that, this is actually the first time on our show that we're going to specifically talk about ADHD and dyslexia, that co-occurrence, which really surprises me because it's so common for the two to co-occur. Carol: Right.Laura: I know you love to talk about your kids, Carol — which I think is so gorgeous — I'm first going to ask you about you, and what's it like for you to have both ADHD and dyslexia. Maybe through a specific example of how it impacts your daily life. Carol: OK so, you have to remember stepping back when I was growing up, there really wasn't testing for any learning differences. So, growing up I did not have a formal diagnosis. It just simply wasn't done. You are pretty much branded as somebody that was too slow, was distracted, didn't seem to care in school. I was considered a poor student, unteachable. All of these sort of labels that are never helpful and most likely are usually very wrong. Fortunately, I had a mother that understood my strengths, my gifts, and she was really able to help me become the person that I am today. School was very difficult for me. I couldn't read. I remember being the kid where — I don't know if they still do this today — but you would sit in a circle and the teacher would pull out a section that we were going to read in class. And paragraph by paragraph, you'd go around the room and each person would read the next paragraph. So, what would happen is, I would count up frantically, "OK, I am the ninth paragraph." And I would frantically look and all I would do is focus on the ninth paragraph. I didn't hear a word that anyone ever said. I was so terrified and so afraid of humiliating myself when it would come to my turn, that all I could do was focus that whole time on my paragraph, and then pray that nobody would get up to go to the bathroom. Laura: Oh my gosh, that sounds really stressful, and there's so much anxiety for such a young person. Carol: So much anxiety. Laura: I've heard a lot from our listeners who talk about having ADHD, and as far as I know — well they may or may not have also had dyslexia. It wasn't a topic of specific discussion for us for those interviews — but what comes up a lot in relation to ADHD is difficulty focusing on the reading. So, I can only imagine when you have both dyslexia and ADHD, how doubly difficult and the immense reading anxiety that can come with that. Carol: It's not only is it anxiety, but the reality is there is no fun. It is exhausting. It is challenging. It is stressful. When you're reading that slowly, oftentimes it's actually really hard to even comprehend what you're reading, because by the time you've got to the end of that page, you've completely forgot what you read at the beginning. And so, listening comprehension, reading comprehension is really important to help children with dyslexia and ADHD. And one of the ways that really helped me is — when I was growing up, I did not like to read at all — but my mother used to read to me all the time. And what she did was something absolutely brilliant, and back then there was not a lot of resources. But instead of picking a book she thought I should hear, she would pick books that I wanted to hear. She understood that learning should always come from within, and she knew that if she could motivate me and get excited about learning, I would want to learn. And if I wanted to learn, nobody was going to stop me. But if I didn't — if I felt discouraged, if I felt frustrated — if I felt like where I was to where I wanted to be so far that it was "What was the point? I'm not even going to try." My mother knew. No, she had to turn my frustration into motivation. Laura: Your mom is, she just sounds so incredible. And of course, not all kids have that same kind of — what's the word I'm looking for? — like parents who understand how to cope. But often by no fault of their own, don't know how to cope with their kids' challenges.Carol: Right, and my two older sisters, they just flew through school. They were straight-A students. They were incredibly smart. And my teachers would look at me and say, "What is wrong with you?" And I remember I had a math teacher who was convinced that math was my worst subject, because I couldn't regurgitate the multiplications, divisions really fast. I just couldn't spit them up fast enough. And my mother thought about it and she's like, "That's ridiculous!" And so, she actually put me in computer programming because she said, "You know, you really think like a computer. You're very logical. And I think that math and physics is actually going to be your best subjects." So, I enrolled in at a community college and I started studying, and lo and behold, I was the best in the class. And I was a little kid and I was with college students. Laura: How old were you in these classes with college students? Carol: I was 12. Laura: Oh my gosh. Carol: Yes, it's shocking. But the thing is, that's how my mind works. I'm a very logical person and I also am an extremely creative person. And what my mother realized is that oftentimes you're like one or the other, but I always actually both. I was just as comfortable in the art classes and the dance classes as I was in science, physics, math. And she started putting me in these classes. She started reading to me books that I was so fascinated with, and she started showing me careers that I had never thought about, that I never dreamed I could do. And all of a sudden I was like, "Oh my gosh, I want to do that." And then when I came back to classes, I was more motivated. I understood what I learned, what I did well in, and where I needed help. Laura: So, you didn't have a name for what you knew what you were strong at. You knew what was harder for you. Carol: Right. Laura: When did you...? I guess what I'm asking about is... Carol: My "aha" moment for me? Laura: What was your "ADHD Aha" moment, right? When did you — and we can talk about dyslexia too — when and how did you learn what was the root of your amazing brain? Carol: It wasn't until, full circle, I had five children and it started all over again with them. The same thing. Getting those notes back from the teachers. "Your child is a disaster. They don't pay attention. They don't care. They're not trying." And meanwhile, I knew they were running a marathon every day. They were working their hearts off, and everything took every ounce of energy for them. And I couldn't understand. And they were so smart and so intelligent. But then they would get, like, zeros on a math test, and I'm like, "How did you get a zero on a math test? I know you know this." But they were timed. And so, by the time my son would literally write his name, he would get a zero and then the teacher would be like, "You're bad at math." And I was like, "Oh my God, that's what happened to me!" And it turns out math is one of his best subjects. But again, they were using the wrong parameters to judge my children's strengths and weaknesses. And I didn't know much, but I fortunately had this wonderful teacher who said to me, she's like, "You know, Carol. I think your children should be tested." And I'm like, "Tested for what?" Because back then again, I didn't know. Laura: Right, right. Carol: I didn't have a support system. I didn't have moms coming to me and saying, "Oh, hey, here's all these resources. Let me help you." I didn't have anyone help me. I had moved to a new city to get married. I wasn't from the area. I wasn't, you know, in with everybody. And I was very much alone trying to figure this out on my own. My mom was sick. She had Parkinson's. So, I was taking care of her. And I had five kids to try to take care of and take care of my mom, which, thank God, I loved every second with my mom, believe me. But, when my kids started getting tested and we started realizing — because I would get dyslexic, ADHD, borderline autism, a selective mutism, anxiety, dysgraphia — all of these things have flooding in. And I was like, "Oh my gosh." And you start reading the reports and you're like, "Oh, that's me. Oh that's that, oh that's me. Oh, that's really me." Laura: What did you do when you discovered there might be a name for what your experience was? Carol: I was actually really excited about it. Believe it or not, I think that when I realized what it was, it wasn't so scary anymore. Because at first, I just thought something was wrong with me. I was always like, "Why is it so easy for my sisters? Why was everything so hard?" But after I was diagnosed and I realized that I was like, "Wow, I'm actually really grateful." Because, see there's one thing that I have that a lot of very intelligent people who do not have learning challenges don't have, is that I have this ability to keep working and not expecting everything to just go smoothly. I expect It's going to be hard. I expect it's going to take a long time. I expect I'm going to have to go through many, many, many iterations before I get it right. And so, I'm not as frustrated anymore. Because I kind of realize, for me to get from here to here, it's going to be a bumpy road with a lot of potholes. And I'm going to go slow. And I don't care what race car I'm driving, I got to go slow. And so, and I'm OK with that. In fact, my kids and everyone calls me "the turtle." And I say proudly, "I am a turtle." I go slow and steady and I love to learn. Laura: I do want to ask. You have five kids. Which of your kids' symptomology, challenges, strengths, do you feel like spoke to you the most in terms of like, what you are strong at and what you struggle with? Carol: So Alana, my second older, had selective mutism as a child. So, selective mutism is basically a fear of even speaking in public. In other words, you just hide. Your anxiety is so great, that the head is down and you just pray "Please don't talk to me. Please, just don't even notice that I exist." It's just such an unbelievable fear. I was very much the same way. I did not speak. So many of my parents' friends really didn't think I did speak. And yet at home, I never stopped speaking because I felt very safe and very secure at home. But it was just such a fear. And I remember my mother put me specifically in Russian ballet. She put me in theater because she realized that when I got out of thinking about myself and just got a part of a repertoire, a part of a group, I could become one. My confidence would build. And we did the same thing for Alana, and the same thing was so powerful. Because when you think about a theater troupe, it's very warm, it's very open and it's very family-like, it's a very safe environment. And so, what you're trying to recreate that sort of home life in other environments out of the home to help your child step up, to become comfortable in being themselves. And maybe for a child, it's a soccer team. It could be many things. And then my son Jacob was very much like me growing up. Severely dyslexic, very slow to read. His teachers would tell him math was his worst subject. You know, "Why are you even going for that?" You know. And yet, his brain was literally just like mine. You know, I put him in a computer program, which he just soars. His math is outstanding. You know, he uses all electronics now, you know, audiobooks, all of those sorts of things that are available to help him. And he went from a kid where they thought that he was never going to amount to anything. He's now in his final year at Ross, at the University of Michigan, and he's doing exceptionally well. Laura: Tell me about KidsRead2Kids and the inspiration and what you do at KidsRead2Kids. Carol: So, KidsRead2Kids is a 501(c)(3), Parents' Choice Award-winning nonprofit that my kids started back in 2016 because we saw that there was like this cycle that keeps continuing. Where I grew up and felt like there was something wrong with me, that I was broken, that I wasn't smart, that I was never going to account to anything based on what school was. And had I not had my mother, I don't know what I would be. Instead of having an MBA from Wharton, an electrical engineering degree, I could be who knows where. But I am who I am because I had somebody in my corner who really believed in me and understood that I had amazing strengths, and also realized that the weaknesses that I had, we could figure out how to work around them so that I could learn and be an independent learner for life. And then my kids came along and I felt like it was like deja vu. It was happening all over again. And my kids one day I said, "You know, we've got to do something, because there are kids around the world, there are parents around the world that don't have a resource to help. What can we do to help these kids so that they can become independent learners? They don't need to have a credit card. They don't need to have money. We need to teach kids that they can be independent, that they are in control of their learning, and we're going to teach them how." And so my kids decided they were going to start KidsRead2Kids, and they started by taking some of the greatest classic books that most children with learning challenges don't even read. They took abridged versions, which were less scary and easier to understand, but very important characters. These were all young characters that had struggles that they had to overcome. And they got their friends from theater and choir — many of which who had learning challenges themselves — and they filmed these books as a video-audiobook, chapter by chapter. Laura: So fun.Carol: Which took, each book, is months and months. You have no idea. Laura: I can't, I can't imagine, actually. I mean, that's incredible. Carol: You know? And then my kids would edit it and get it all set. And we wanted it so that a child could go on to our website or go on to our KidsRead2Kids YouTube channel. They could listen to these books completely free. They didn't have to ask for permission. They didn't have to ask for money. And they're listening to other kids just like them. And all of a sudden, kids in over 60 countries started using it. It was amazing. And then Covid hit, and teachers were like, "Ahhh! what do we do?" You know, "How do we teach kids online?" And so my kids created two complete free lesson plans to "Anne of Green Gables," that my daughter Alana Read and "Peter Pan" that her friend Steven reads. And this has creative writing prompts, active listening questions, vocabulary games to really help kids learn how to actively listen. You know, we were born hearing, but we have to learn how to actively listen. Laura: Well, it's just such an amazing organization, Carol. I mean, the fact that your kids founded it, and just the entrepreneurship, the scrappiness, the creativity, the empathy that it takes to do something like that. I really commend you and your kids. Your story is just phenomenal. The website for everyone who's listening again is kidsread2kids.com. That two is the number two, not the word two. So, kidsread2kids.com. So Carol, thank you so much for being here today. It's just been a pleasure. I really appreciate it. Carol: Oh, it is an honor. And on our website, there's always a way of contacting us if you have a question or a concern. When I was raising my kids, I didn't have anyone to help me, and it's a really scary process to try to figure out what to do. And I don't want any parent to ever feel that way. So, same thing for kids. We are here as a resource. This is our passion. We love it, we believe in it, and we really, really want to make sure that no child, no adult feels like they're broken or something is wrong with them. You are perfect the way that you are. Find your strengths, and then let us help you to improve the areas that are hard for you. And it will make life so much easier and way more fun. Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently, discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine! Jessamine: Hi everyone. Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.
Dyslexia laws: What they are and how they work
Schools may differ in how they identify and help kids with dyslexia. Some states have passed “dyslexia laws” to regularize what their schools do. Here’s what you should know about these laws.State dyslexia laws are more in-depth than IDEAThe Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA) lists 13 conditions that can make students eligible for special education. One of these is specific learning disability, or SLD. And IDEA lists dyslexia as a type of SLD.IDEA is a national law. States can implement it in different ways. State laws do have to give students all the rights and protections that federal laws do. They can’t give less protection. But they can provide more.But IDEA isn’t always specific about everything. It doesn’t define dyslexia. It also doesn’t tell states how schools should address it.The result is that there are many differences from state to state in the special education services provided for kids with dyslexia. Even different schools in the same state may do things differently.Not all kids with dyslexia need the same type of support and intervention. But they should have the same level of support. That’s true no matter what school they go to or what state they live in.That’s what state dyslexia laws aim to manage. By providing more detail than IDEA, these laws try to give students with dyslexia added rights and protections. And they want to make sure that the schools within a state operate the same way.The purpose of dyslexia laws varies from state to stateDyslexia laws focus on different things in different states. In general, they address one or more of the following issues:Defining dyslexia and other conditions that affect language learningEarly screening and identification of students with dyslexia in grades K–3Procedures for states/schools for screening and intervention (known as “dyslexia handbooks”)Training and professional development for current teachers so they’ll understand how to teach children with dyslexiaEducation about dyslexia in teacher preparation programsAccommodations, support, and early intervention for kids identified as having dyslexia or being at riskFunding for programsDyslexia laws can take new research into accountIn the decades since IDEA passed, there’s been a lot of research into dyslexia. Researchers have learned more about the different ways kids with dyslexia struggle with reading.There’s also more information about what types of intervention and reading programs help. And we know more about how to recognize dyslexia and screen for it in the early grades.Many of these discoveries predate IDEA. But states can include current research in their guidelines. The laws can use it to outline specific ways for schools to evaluate, identify and teach students with dyslexia.Not all states have dyslexia laws. To learn if your state does, contact your school or your state’s department of education.In the states that do have dyslexia laws, parents have often spearheaded the efforts to pass those laws. Find out more about how one mom became an advocate for kids with dyslexia.
The Opportunity GapBringing awareness to dyslexia
Dyslexia is a common learning difference that impacts many kids of color. Hear from an expert and learn ways to support kids in the classroom. The signs of dyslexia are often overlooked. And there’s so much parents of kids of color can do to advocate for the right support for this learning difference. Our guest is Dyslexia Mom Boss host Lauren McClenney-Rosenstein, EdD. Listen as Dr. Lauren explains:Her own personal experience with learning and thinking differencesWhat parents need to know about Orton–GillinghamWays parents and schools can work together to help kids of color thriveRelated resourcesDr. Lauren’s podcast, Dyslexia Mom BossDyslexia basicsWhat is Orton–Gillingham?Episode transcript Julian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma, and there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. Welcome back, listeners. So, on today's episode, we're talking about a learning difference that impacts many people, dyslexia. October is National Dyslexia Awareness Month. Joining us for today's conversation is Dr. Lauren McClenney-Rosenstein. Dr. Lauren has been a certified special educator for ten years. She's also the CEO and founder of Think Dyslexia, and she's also the host of "Dyslexia Mom Boss" podcast, a podcast that explores mom guilt and understanding the special education journey. Please help me welcome Dr. Lauren to the show. Woohoo! Welcome. Lauren: Thank you, Julian. And it's exciting, first of all, to be on this podcast. And I love Understood. I always use Understood as a resource. So, this is just like such an honor to be here. So, thank you.Julian: Dr. Lauren, I really appreciate you being here. One of the things that we always try to start off with is, you know, just kind of talking with each other, get to know each other, because we're going to dig deep into some more issues. But this morning, I got up and I'm in the bathroom brushing my teeth and I hear my daughter at 5:45 a.m., and this little girl, Amalia, eight years old, she is fully dressed. She has her hair done. She has her shoes or socks on. And she has her yoga mat. And she says, "Dad, I just had to get my yoga in before school. I'm ready.". Lauren: I love that. Julian: And I looked at her like, "Girl, why are you awake at 5:30 in the morning doing yoga?" And so, when I think about what's giving me life right now, the fact that my daughter understands how important it is to center herself before school starts. I mean, I say all that to ask, for me, that's giving me life. I want to know about you. What's giving you life right now? Lauren: That's a really good one. You know, I might have to continue on the parenting train. So, my youngest daughter is five and a half and just day two of kindergarten sending her off and all my little sweet girls growing up, and she's wanting to get on the bus and just doing her thing. And my daughter actually has a little meditation mat where she will sometimes pull it out and... Julian: Oh wow! Lauren: ...before bed and say, "Mommy, I just need to take a minute to breathe." Yeah, I think that probably is giving me some life today because that's fresh in my mind. Julian: That's what's up. That's what's up. So, let's get into it. You received a late ADHD diagnosis, is that correct? Lauren: I did. Julian: Would you be open to telling our listeners a little bit more about that journey of how to get diagnosis and how that happened? Lauren: It's funny because I'm always an open book, but I think there was a lot of shame around this, and it really wasn't until this summer was when I started sharing my story. But I was a psychology major undergrad, and I think the reason I was so attracted to psychology was I wanted to understand the human brain. I wanted to understand human interactions, like why are people the way they are as in nature versus nurture? Like, what's behind all of that? And I always struggled in school and I didn't really know why. I was always in trouble. I was always the social butterfly, you know, all these things. And, you know, it wasn't until I was in this abnormal psychology class and I saw like all the signs and symptoms of ADHD, and I was like, "This sounds like me. I wonder if I have this.". And so, I'm the kind of person where I just want you to tell it to me straight. So, I marched down to the local psych center on campus, you know those grad students doing all the testing for the college kids, and I got that diagnosis, right? I was just like, "Oh, this is great and I know what it is. And then I was like, 'Wait, what is this? Why didn't I know this?'" Like, all this. And, you know, there was a lot of shame around it. Like, I had to get some feedback from my parents because there was stuff they needed to have input on when I was a kid. And I think that they were kind of like, "What are you doing? Like, Why is this happening? Like, what's going on here?" So, I went and I did what most people do, which is get on medication. And it was awful for me. So, I was a Division one athlete at Syracuse. I ran track and that was my job to run track because I was a scholarship athlete. Well, this medication I was on was awful. I was losing weight, I was eating like a football player, I lost my personality. But I got to tell you, the only good thing was I made honor roll for the first time ever in college. And I was like, "This isn't worth it." So, I got off the medication. And then I just thought it disappeared. Then I explored education, and that was when I went into my master's program — I wanted to explore elementary ed, but special ed was really what grabbed me. And I think it was because I struggled. And so, when I was in these special ed placements, or even really any placement, any kid that struggled, I was like, "I'm there. Like I know it, I can help you." And that was what drew me in to the neurodiversity, but I didn't know that. I literally stumbled into dyslexia, the world of dyslexia. I'm not dyslexic. Most people that follow my work are like, "What's your dyslexia story?" I'm like, "Don't have one." I was like, "I don't have one. My kids aren't dyslexic, as far as I know. I don't have any family members that have admitted that they're dyslexic. I just was trained in Orton Gillingham and to know how to work with the dyslexic brain.". And so, for years I would coach parents and kids and teachers into this like mindset of like, "Well, this is how you have to differentiate. This is how you need to understand that we all learn differently." And all the while, I wasn't really serving myself. That's when I really had to look at myself in the mirror and say, "All right, I got to do something with this ADHD, because when it goes 15 years without treating it, there are repercussions to that." That's kind of my story in a nutshell. Julian: I'd love to know more just in general about how Think Dyslexia came about. Like, tell us more about that. Lauren: So, it was January of 2020. I was working at a nonprofit whose mission was focused on inclusive education, and really we provided technical assistance to districts, schools. And I just remember sitting in this office just bored, you know, because I have ADHD and I'm like, "I'm so used to bouncing around and going to different classrooms and I'm supposed to sit at a desk and do research." So I said, "I need to do something." So, I started an Instagram account and, but my vision was, "I'm just going to put out all this information that's in my head on social media. Who knows where it's going to go". And so, I started with the old school whiteboard posts with like fun facts about dyslexics and, you know, that really picked up. And then later on, I started doing cam reposts and then lives, and then it turned into this whole kind of research project where I was finding people around the world, sharing their dyslexia story, talking about dyslexia in Egypt, in Oman, in India, in Norway. And Think Dyslexia was really just a resource. It was a place where parents would find the resources. I mean, I had moms who were in my coaching program that were like, "You were the first account that saved my life." And I'm like, "I saved your life? It's like, What do you mean?". Julian: Got it.Julian: And so a podcast came out of this, correct?Lauren: It did. So, my vision was, well, actually I should say this, my account was shut down twice. And, you know, for whatever reasons, Instagram's issues are with that. I needed a platform where I was my content and it couldn't be taken down or taken away. So, that's when I said, "Well, how do I do that? I'm going to create a podcast." Julian: I'm just fascinated that you were able to take this social need, like society needed more information about dyslexia and you've been able to transform it into multiple platforms. And so, I think it's just really cool that you've been able to do that. I want to pivot to the idea of students and children and their rights. We're both parents and we can confidently say that nobody fights harder for a child than their parent or their parenting adult. These adults that are in children's lives, they really just want to see the kids thrive in whatever they choose to do. You know, whatever they decide, they just want to see them do well. And so, I'd like to ask specifically for those parenting adults of children of color, because we really focus on the opportunity gap of children of color and their experience. Why is it so important for them specifically to advocate for their children? Lauren: If you go back to the start of this country, OK? And this is a little quick history lesson. Like it wasn't a right or it wasn't a law for kids to go to school. And so, I think if you think back to the beginning of time where it really wasn't a law for kids to go to school because of agriculture and farming and all of that, it was more of a luxury then, of course, it's not going to be honored for people of color. And so, I just feel like this is a systemic issue. Also in the Black community, I think it's twofold. We don't always talk about disabilities, and when we do, there's a lot of shame and guilt around it and there's a lot of, "Oh, well, that's just so and so on and he figured it out when he was ten." And it's like, no. But the other issue is that there's resources that just aren't accessible. There are things in just the brown and Black community, we just don't know what we don't know. So, it's a lot easier to put that energy somewhere else or to come off if you come to the school as the angry Black mom, because you know there's something wrong with your kid, but you don't know how to advocate, right? Because you don't have the words or the resources to say, "I think this is what's happening." So, you have to take a look at who's teaching our children and whether they realize it or not. There's the biases that they have, the microaggressions, the, whatever it is, where it's ingrained in us. Julian: I'm interested in knowing some of the experiences you have with the families you work with. I'm curious, like, what are you seeing about our experiences? And I say "our" as in those of us that are people of color. Lauren: That's another great question. So, in terms of my personal private practice business, most of my clients are white. Julian: Interesting. Lauren: Yeah, and I think it is...how do I word this? It's an economic issue and it's also a lack of knowledge. Julian: And can you explain what that is for the reader? And you had mentioned that earlier. You know, those of us that are not in the business. Explain what that is. Lauren: Orton Gillingham is a buzzword now. Orton Gillingham, two people. Samuel Orton, was a neuropsychologist, and Anna Gillingham, I believe, was a speech-language pathologist. And they, this was like over 100 years ago, OK? And they understood the neurodiverse brain, the dyslexic brain. They understood that there had to be a multi-sensory approach to teaching these children to read. Most people think that kids just know how to read, and that is not the case. There's so much brain science behind it and there have to be wires connecting. And if you have dyslexia and other language-based learning differences, things aren't firing and you have to do it a different way. So, I was classically trained through the Orton Gillingham Academy. And what that means is you have a fellow, you do a certain hour of coursework practicum and you have to apply to get into the academy. So, there are many levels of what Orton Gillingham can look like. And so, if you're a parent out there and you're like, "Oh yeah, I got an Orton Gillingham tutor," you need to vet them. You need to say, "Did you go through the academy? Who was your fellow?". Now there are other certifications that are just as credentialed. But I think the thing is, is that when you have a true dyslexia therapist or an Orton Gillingham-trained practitioner, it's very expensive. And it's expensive because — and you'll understand this, Julian, because you're an assistant principal — there's no curriculum, OK? This literally requires you to know the child and take your skill set of being — because I'm also an educational therapist — of bringing that sound approach. So, if, like, I've worked with middle schoolers that can't really read, I'm not going to start off with Shakespeare because it's eighth-grade content. We're going to get to the nitty gritty, roll up the sleeves, and if you don't A apple, that's where we're starting. Obviously, you have to make it, you know, appropriate and protect their ego. But Orton Gillingham or as I said, other dyslexia therapists like we do the work and we know that we individualize what that child needs. And so, I think when you bring that to our community, there's just not a lot of knowledge around that. And then I think in general when a parent is like, "Oh, well, I need what you have and my kid can't read and, you know, I don't know what to do," but then you hit him with the ticket of "Here's how much this costs," then that can, that sometimes presents to be a problem and it turns into an economic issue. Like, are you middle, upper middle class? Can you afford, you know, X amount of hours? Because let's be honest here, you're not going to see progress unless you have a set amount of hours put in. Julian: Yeah, that's I mean, that's true across the board. And again, I see it at the administrative level where, you know, there's supports that are in place based on what people can afford and what they can't afford. And, you know, we do know that there are definitely schools that have fantastic reading intervention programs and early intervention programs. Lauren: Exactly. Julian: Where there's a process called MTSS, where people are able to figure out and diagnose and intervene immediately, whereas other schools and other school districts. For some of our listeners, you may be in a school or a school district that doesn't have a strong reading intervention program, and so your child might not get identified early on, or you might just have that gut feeling like "My baby just can't read as well as everybody else." And there's so much info out there so you don't know, "What should I pick? What should I do?" All I'm seeing are these things that cost tons and tons of money to do tutoring. And so, my question to you is, if I'm a parent in a situation like that, where I recognize there's not a really solid reading intervention program at my child's school, but I also, I can't really swing paying $300 a month for extra tutoring, right? What are some other ways that you would advocate as a coach, as somebody that's been in this a lot, how would you advocate for parents to represent their children and find a way to solve that situation? Lauren: First things first, you're listening to this podcast. That's a great place to start. I would definitely say check out my podcast "Dyslexia Mom Boss" and what is really important for a parent — and this is what I say all the time to parents — you need to educate yourself on what dyslexia is, you need to educate yourself on what language-based learning disabilities or differences are. And then the next thing I always tell parents is once you have an understanding of that, then you need to understand your child in that context. You can't just say, "Oh, this is what dyslexia is and this is my kid," because it's a spectrum. So, you need to understand the diagnosis or the suspected diagnosis. So, what I always recommend is if you think your child has dyslexia, go to the Mayo Clinic and type in signs and symptoms of dyslexia. Julian: The Mayo Mayo Clinic, OK good. Lauren: And what I love about it — I always reference this —what I love about it is it gives you stages. So, it gives you, what is it like... not birth, I think it's like two. They call it before school age. So, it's probably like right around the time where kids are starting to develop language to about four or five, and then they have school-aged, which is kindergarten to fifth grade, and then they have teens and adults. And so, if you are an educator, you're looking at this and you see the developmental stages of like, oh yeah, by the time they're in middle school, they should be doing this. By the time they're in high school, they should be doing this. Well, it gives you an extensive signs and symptoms and that is a great way for you to do an informal screener online to be like, "Oh, tick, tick. I think this might be an issue." Now, getting the actual diagnosis now that can be challenging. You know, if you're in public school, you have to have a reason to bring this to the table for your child to even get supports. Now, Julian, you touched on MTSS, and that's a whole different episode and a whole different conversation. But if your school is doing things in the right manner, your child should be receiving Tier one and then Tier two and then Tier three, and then if they're still aren't getting the results they need, that's when they can possibly be up for special ed, which means that's when they can possibly be tested. Problem is, is that takes time. And so, this is where money comes into the situation where "I'm going to go get a private psych evaluation. I'm going to go find somebody because I know there's something wrong with my kid. And my kid needs that support." So there's so many different things where eventually money does come into play. But I think the free tips are the podcast, the Mayo Clinic, go to the International Dyslexia Association. There are a lot of resources there. I would say start with that with the, you know, low-cost things. Julian: Great, great. I mean, everything that you said is to access like, that's the most important thing is really understanding that it's not incredibly difficult to access, it's taking the time to do it. Now, I will say, you know, parents or parenting adults, if you feel like your student or your child is not getting the interventions that they need, then ask for a list of interventions that are being used in school. It's as simple as that. Just make sure to ask, "Hey, what's happening in school in terms of interventions? I feel like I have concerns about my child's reading ability. Can you tell me some things that you've tried?" That's a really easy first step, and then you can ask about MTSS, like we mentioned. And then you can ask the school "What are some other suggestions or resources you might have for supporting our child with their reading because we really want to help them. Can you give us or provide us with information?". And I will say that nine times out of ten you'll be able to at least get something from that. And from the administrator lens, if a parent comes in and is asking that, then I know "All right. We got to make sure that we're providing, because they've done their research, they've done their homework, they're ready. Let's make sure that we get that going for them."Lauren: Yeah. I would agree. Julian: One last question. Just thinking about similar conversations with schools. And again, I'm going to take the administrator hat off and I want to hear from you as a mom. Lauren: Sure. Julian: What are some ways that you think parents or parenting adults can build stronger relationships with schools? Lauren: So, I'm going to give a quick answer, but then I'm going to explain why. I think being vulnerable is a really huge part to building a strong relationship. Julian: Say more about that. Being vulnerable. Say more about that. Lauren: Yeah, we're all human, right? Julian, You wear that administrative hat, but you're also a dad. You're also a man. You're also a husband. You also get sick. You also get sad, like we're human. I strongly believe and I'm speaking from personal experience. You cannot communicate effectively or have healthy, positive relationships if your nervous system is not regulated. So, when you are all the time stressed all the time worrying about this anxiety-filled and coming from a place of like, my kid needs this, like you're irritable, you're not easy to talk to you, you're not listening. And I think that parents need to understand, "If I can regulate myself and just say I'm really lost, I don't know how to help my child, can we do this together?" I think that's where you have that like, that's where the rubber meets the road. That's where teachers are not defensive because teachers will come to the table if a parent is, because I've seen it, a parent is yelling at them like, "You didn't do this, you didn't fill out the IEP. My kid is behind." And the teachers are like, "Whoa, I got 35 kids in here. I don't even have time to pee." And it's like, this is not productive. Julian: You're right, it's too much. And I think really making sure you try to put your self in the eyes or the perspective of the other party is really important. As the teacher, try to understand where the parent is coming from, and as the parent try to understand where the teacher's coming from. That helps things go a really long way. Well, Dr. Lauren, we could talk all day long, and I really, I appreciate it. I love your energy. I love your story. I love the work that you're doing. Lauren: Thank you. Julian: The fact that you're putting yourself out there. It's been a fun conversation. It's been very insightful, especially for me just on dyslexia and some of the work that you've done. Listeners, before we go, as always, I have some really helpful resources to share. I'm going to share them in a second. I just want to one more time, say thank you so much to Dr. Lauren. Come back again at some point. We have some more conversation to have. Lauren: Definitely. Julian: So, listeners, some resources. One, check out Dr. Lauren's podcast. I've listened, is pretty solid. "Dyslexia Mom Boss." "Dyslexia Mom Boss." Also, she gave us a really good tip to type in Mayoclinic.org. Check out The Mayo Clinic. If you have any questions about dyslexia, you can get some levels around or what you're seeing and symptoms and it's really informative. You can also, obviously, learn ways you can help your child with dyslexia from Understood.org. That's right. Understood.org. It is top of the town. We do it right over at Understood. Then also hear why this doctor says she would never want to be cured of dyslexia, even if she could be, in an episode of "In It," one of our sister podcasts on Understood. Listeners, we will talk and listen soon. Thank you for joining "The Opportunity Gap." Ciao! "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks, edited by Cin Pim. Ilana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show for the Understood Podcast Network. Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
Dyslexia and creativity: What you need to know
You may have heard people talk about a link between dyslexia and creativity. Research has shown that people with dyslexia do have differences in brain wiring compared to others. But do those differences make them more creative?Learn more about a possible connection between dyslexia and creativity.Research on dyslexia and creativityThe Oxford English Dictionary defines creativity as “the use of imagination or original ideas to create something.” There are many people with dyslexia, famous and not, who fit that definition. But is their creativity related to their dyslexia?So far, there’s no reliable data showing that people with dyslexia are more creative than other people. Researchers are studying this topic, however. Some of the questions they’re looking to answer include:Is there any difference between people with and without dyslexia in terms of creativity?Do the factors that make reading difficult have other effects? Do they lead to greater creative strengths?Does the experience of having dyslexia lead people toward creative activities? Do they do things that build creative thinking, whether they choose to on their own or are encouraged to?If you look at the number of artists, musicians, actors, and authors with dyslexia, it’s easy to think there’s a connection between dyslexia and creativity. So far there’s been very little research on this topic, and scientists are looking for solid evidence of a link.Entrepreneurship and dyslexiaA number of well-known entrepreneurs have dyslexia. Does that mean having dyslexia makes you more likely to start and run a successful business?Some studies suggest that dyslexia is more common among entrepreneurs than among corporate managers. But more research is needed to conclude that there’s a link between dyslexia and entrepreneurship. One area researchers need to explore is whether other factors, like ADHD, play a role. (ADHD frequently co-occurs with dyslexia.)Watch a tattoo artist and fashion vlogger describe her experiences growing up with dyslexia.Visual-spatial processing and dyslexiaSome people with reading issues report that they’re drawn to the visual arts and to fields like architecture and design. That’s led some people to speculate that people with dyslexia have better visual-spatial skills than people who don’t have it.There are studies that have looked into this issue. But a 2016 review of 36 peer-reviewed publications concluded that there’s “little evidence to support spatial advantages.”Encouraging creativity in your childAs researchers continue to study dyslexia and creativity, there are things you can do to support and nurture your child’s creativity. Encourage your child to explore and develop interests. Learn more about types of strengths in kids, and download a hands-on activity to identify your child’s strengths. And hear how a teen with dyslexia and other learning differences found confidence through art.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Coping with anxiety and dyslexia to become a “Top Chef” competitor
Luke Kolpin is a chef with dyslexia. After working at Noma and competing on Top Chef, he’s looking for his next hands-on challenge. Luke Kolpin is a chef with dyslexia. He’s cooked in high-pressure environments, from Top Chef to the critically acclaimed Noma in Copenhagen. Luke didn’t have the best relationship with school when he was first diagnosed with dyslexia. After high school, he started taking community college courses. But he still wondered what he really wanted to do. That’s when his best friend suggested culinary school. After all, Luke’s nickname was Lunchbox when he was a kid. Culinary school changed Luke’s world. He excelled in the hands-on work — but he also had to get past the academics. A teacher who recognized his skill set made all the difference. In this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, Luke shares how he handles challenges that bring up old anxieties — and that asking for help is OK. Related resourcesAfter high school: Different ways to thriveClassroom accommodations for dyslexiaDyslexia and anxiety in childrenEpisode transcriptLuke: I need to do something where I couldn't just turn around and run backwards if I needed to. I needed to just go forward. So I accepted it. And I went on this last season's "Top Chef."Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.My next guest has spent his career in kitchens all over the world. Usually chefs are working behind the scenes. So Luke Kolpin never expected to find himself competing in front of a global audience on a recent season of "Top Chef." Before showcasing his culinary skills on TV, Luke worked in one of the most famous restaurants in the world, Noma in Copenhagen, Denmark. Noma has three Michelin stars, and I know a lot of my foodie friends have fought really hard for a reservation there. And he's not satiated yet. He's currently back in his hometown of Seattle, cooking up his next steps.Luke was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was young, and he talked to me about how his learning difference has shaped his career — from culinary school to thinking about starting his own restaurant. Welcome to the show, Luke.Luke: Hi. How's it going?Eleni: So I know you went to culinary school when you were 19. What made you decide to go to culinary school as opposed to, like pursuing, like, I guess, more traditional sorts of education?Luke: Well, obviously, the normal education route kind of freaks me out a little bit. I mean, not that I couldn't or could not do it. I think everybody can do something if they really, you know, dedicate almost everything to it if they need to. But I was having a very difficult time with school, just, you know, going to community colleges and taking basic AA classes for a business degree or whatever.And it kind of happened to be one of those conversations I was having with my best friend sitting on the couch when we were 18, both being like, "Are we going to go anywhere? Are we not going to go anywhere? What are we going to do?" And a common thing that happened throughout my whole childhood — and of course, a lot of kids eat when they're bored — and I did that a lot. My friends call me Lunchbox in high school because every chance I got I would open up the refrigerator or eat something or whatever I could. So he kind of just made that suggestion of, "Why don't you try culinary school? All you ever do is eat." So I — that weekend, I actually enrolled in culinary school and completely fell in love with it.Eleni: Wow. That's a very influential friend that you had.Luke: Yes. Still my best friend today.Eleni: Cool. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your learning differences. I know that you were diagnosed with dyslexia. Do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, how old you were when that happened and the story behind that.Luke: Yeah. So, I think it was around first grade — that's what I believe — my parents told me that I was diagnosed. I don't remember that meeting, of course, but it was around that time. And I, of course, moved around schools at the early '90s. It wasn't necessarily the easiest transition, I think, for anybody with learning disabilities at that time. You know, being in a class where no one knows how to treat or knows what to do with you. So to be honest, I'd read into a cassette tape and then they'd play it back to you and say "Fix it." That was, you know, in second and third grade. So instead of helpful, it was the complete opposite. I just wanted to be kind of, you know, go underneath a rock, you could say.But of course, I had very caring parents that really helped me out in that sense and always pushed for, you know, a better school or whatever. And I did actually end up going to a school called Hamlin Robinson that everybody has some form of learning disability. I remember on the first day that I was there, you know, holding up my textbook and having a mirror in our desk. So I was able to read my textbook for the first time perfectly. And then, of course, they figure out where on the spectrum you are in your learning disabilities and then kind of teach you going forward from there.Eleni: Yeah. And it sounds like it made a big difference being around other kids that were similar to you and like normalizing those challenges.Luke: Absolutely.Eleni: And how did you go from being in that environment where, you know, you all were quite similar into culinary school, you know, where I imagine that that wasn't necessarily the case. Like people came from like all sorts of different backgrounds. Like, how is that different?Luke: It was, well, getting to the culinary school part. There was about a decade in between that was very challenging. You know, of course, I hid from certain things. I didn't always push myself or apply. You know, I ran into corners and all these sort of things up until I got to culinary school. But then, of course, going into culinary school, I didn't think about, you know, the other things at that point, because I thought I had found something that I really enjoyed. And I actually happened to have a really, well, now he's a close friend, but we had — I had a mutual friend between me and a bunch of my childhood friends that happened to be in culinary school at the same time. So we ended up, you know, becoming really good friends. And to be honest, he didn't have any learning disabilities, and I did. And we still both kind of struggled in culinary school together. Whether or not that gave me mental stability, that, hey, if people that are not have, you know, dyslexia or learning disabilities can have a problem and I'm keeping up with them, maybe I'm doing something right. I don't know if that's how I thought — I don't think I've told my friend that, maybe I shouldn't.But at the same time, it was, you know, it was a little difficult, to be honest. I did fail. I almost failed my first quarter class in culinary school through the academic part. I was in the — what I was told was the 98, 99 percentile of the hands-on. But when I came to putting answers down on tests, it was just like high school. It was filled with red marks. The teacher actually graded it in front of you. It was only about 7 to 10 questions. Then he'd hand it back to you. And on the fifth time that I did that, he started questioning me, saying, "Why do you keep putting answers down like this?" And then started asking me all the questions again. A little bit of trauma started probably coming up through me as the line behind me started being filled with about six or seven people. But I gave them the new answers or what I thought were the answers. And he said "These were the best answers I've gotten in the last three years. Why didn't you put it down on paper?" And that's when he kind of learned that I had a learning disability, and he started grading my tests differently and I started doing a lot better in school.Eleni: Wow. Yeah, I think that really is a testament to like the power of assessing people based on like, you know, the best way that they both learn and then communicate back how they've learned that. I definitely imagine culinary school to be very practical and hands on. So in some ways it's kind of unexpected that there is this academic component. Like, was that also unexpected for you? Like, did you kind of know that's what you were getting into?Luke: I mean, I knew there was going to be a few things for it, of course. I mean, you're you have to go get a textbook or you're going to give you, you know, tests a few times a year. And then, of course, there's still a math class that I didn't do very well in. But, you know, there's still a math class and it's all the basic stuff. So I knew I would have to deal with it a little bit. But of course, you know, there's ways to not deal with it if you want to just be a cook. But if you want to kind of continue on and really make this your life journey, you're going to have to dive into all that stuff. I mean, anything that makes me uncomfortable as a kid, I'm facing it all over again now. Just, you know, a little bit older and hopefully with a different, you know, weaponry, I guess, of knowledge on it. But, you know, it's still challenging.Eleni: What are some of those things that come up for you now?Luke: Well, especially now through a pandemic, you know, having to deal with computer stuff and having to deal with, you know, writing a whole bunch more stuff down and send it off to people. Getting ready to potentially open up a restaurant in the future, you know, you have to deal with all these different numbers that if you're off by one little bit, it's a catastrophic thing.So, I mean, I know what I'm good at. I know what I can become good at. But I also know what I need help with. And, you know, I want to learn everything about what I do. But I also, you know, will put people in charge that, you know, will focus mainly on that. And we can teach each other all sides of things that we don't know together.Eleni: Yeah. So it sounds like whenever you're struggling with someone, you bring someone in.Luke: I mean, there's some things I'll try to do it myself, but I have known in the past that maybe ask somebody. It's OK. Help is OK.Eleni: Yeah. Have you always been that way?Luke: No. I would say, to be honest, after becoming a chef and working in Europe is when I really kind of changed that over a little bit. And knowing that help is accepted and help is OK. I mean, when you're growing up with learning disabilities, sometimes asking for help, if you were never able to in the very beginning or thought you were able to in the beginning can, still be damaging now if you've never talked to anybody about it and been able to get over it. So of course. Is it hard from time to time to ask for help? It still is, you know, for certain situations. But I know asking for that help, regardless of the headbutts that might happen, is beneficial for all parties. And leaving it, you know, to be, and burying it and keep burying it — I think a lot of people can become very good at burying things. So, you know, it's time to unburied those.Eleni: What was it about being in Europe that really, like, influenced that?Luke: The restaurant itself is called Noma, in Copenhagen, which was pretty acclaimed at the time. And of course, when you're in this industry and you start to fantasize about what you can do, you think of high-end restaurants. And I ended up having an opportunity to potentially do an internship in this restaurant back in 2012. And, you know, I really wanted to have someone to teach you. I knew or thought you really had to have a mentor as a chef. And I really didn't have that at the moment here in Seattle back then.So I did find an opportunity and of course, was only supposed to be a two-month-long internship. Now, knowing myself and knowing how hard I had, you know, going through school, if I didn't want to read or do anything, I would just turn around and say, no, go hide in my room. And no one would ever say anything or I would cause into a fight or whatever. So I know I needed to really motivate myself in the best way possible to do that. So I kind of told everybody I was going out for a job. It was a job trial, you know. Basically made up a few lies to push myself, because if I didn't go out there and end up getting a job, it would be a catastrophic failure here. And that turned into me pushing really hard and getting the job.You know, I wasn't as knowledgeable or skillful as everybody else, but as soon as somebody wanted a container from across the room, you bet ya, I'd get that container first. I'd make sure it's dry, and whatever you needed to be set up I'd make sure that that would happen. That attitude turned into a very positive thing there, and they gave me a job after two weeks of me being there.And of course, what really helped me in this restaurant to kind of one, also have confidence to talk to people and kind of interact and how I do now and why I really dedicate a lot to this restaurant, is the chefs were the ones that engaged the customers or the guests. So we would bring the food out. If you were in charge of making a dish, you would explain it. Now, in the beginning, talking to anybody more than one person I'd be petrified. I'd freak out any sort of question asked to me about anything. I would feel like it was a test question all over again and I'd panic.But of course, over the time, you know, you're forced into this and you talk to people and all that sort of stuff. So all these things I was really uncomfortable with doing, there was nowhere for me to turn around and go. I was in Denmark, very far away from Seattle, and I really wanted this to really work. So, of course, I slowly got comfortable with, you know, I might have said a few of the same things over and over again, but eventually it became more natural to me. I became like it was my home there, so I felt like I could really talk about it.And then it didn't matter how many people I was talking to or what I was talking about. I could talk about anything in this for as long as I needed to, as long as I felt comfortable and confident with what I was talking about. And if I didn't, I'd tell you, and then we could learn about it. So this restaurant, you know, I forced myself into it by, you know, in a sense, lying about certain things to force myself to try to get the job. And then once it was here, it was of course, it was very difficult. And, you know, you're having to do things that I really didn't want to do, but I wanted to and I did. And I forced myself to to break through the other side of it.Eleni: So you ended up on "Top Chef"?Luke: I did.Eleni: How did that come about?Luke: I had two friends that were on the previous season, and I also got a phone call from from the "Top Chef" producers. I thought I was waiting for this phone call, but I kind of had told my friend that I wouldn't do it. I didn't think I could go on TV and do anything like that. So to be honest, when I got the phone call to do "Top Chef," I told them I needed a few days to think about it. I said yes and went into this situation kind of the same way and mindset that I went into going to Copenhagen and working at restaurant Noma for the first time. I needed to do something where I couldn't just turn around and run backwards if I needed to. I needed to just go forward. So I accepted it and I went on this last season's "Top Chef."Eleni: So for listeners who haven't watched the show, how would you describe it?Luke: Well, "Top Chef," I was on Season 19 and they're just about to launch their Season 20. So of course, it's a good amount of time that this competition cooking show has been on. It's a cooking show, but it's all formed around a competition. And my season started with 15 people. And you're tasked with a quickfire challenge that, you know, won't get you kicked off the show, but will potentially get you further with maybe an immunity or something positive out of it. And those are typically 30- to 40-minute challenges. And then afterwards, you either have an individual challenge that could be, you know, 2 to 4 hours, or a team challenge. And, you know, you go through one quickfire and one main challenge before you are potentially eliminated and then maybe or may not go to the next challenge.Eleni: And how are the individual challenges different to the team challenges?Luke: Well, the individual challenges are, you know, it's very random. It's very kind of, you know, they give you let's say, for instance, we were tasked with making biscuits from scratch one day. And I would say half of the chefs there have never made a biscuit from scratch. So that you find a lot of things that, you know, you've done for the first time, never done before, and have to now make it in a challenge.Eleni: And what was the most challenging part for you?Luke: I mean, it's a competition. So you working in, you know, situations or realities where in, you know, a normal kitchen, you can stop. You don't have to put the plate up or you don't have to do whatever. You might have given yourselves a certain time frame in a restaurant. But, you know, you can adjust that time. When you're on "Top Chef," if you're given 30 minutes or 2 hours, that's what you have, whether it's a realistic or unrealistic time.Eleni: Speaking of time, you know, I know that like in school, you might have had extra time on, like, certain things.Luke: Everything I wanted.Eleni: Like, did you have any similar time accommodations or other accommodations in the competition?Luke: No. There was a producer actually named Taylor, who I think is amazing. He's a great guy. And he and his sister both have learning disabilities. So it's not like it was like, oh, you have what? Yeah, no, we can't do anything. I mean, there was one challenge that we were given a couple of paragraphs to read and have to research on someone and kind of get inspired by, you know, doing the research. We had 15 minutes to do this. I looked around and said, "You're giving me 15 minutes to read a page and do some research online?" You know, and I was like, "Well, I'm not even going to do the research. I'm just going to try my best to reread this as much as I can and figure something out.".So that was the first time where I kind of had old feelings come back when I was on the show. And I was given an option to if, you know, if you want to have somebody read this to you or something like that, they were going to do it. And I did say no. And I said I'll figure it out, because I didn't want any extra help for that. But it was provided to me for that challenge if I needed it.Eleni: Why didn't you want the extra help?Luke: I don't know. I just, I mean, I did get some inspiration from it, and I got it in a very different way. And, you know, the dish may or may not have come out very well, but that was on my execution, not from where I drew the inspiration from. So I ended up — I did OK.Eleni: So I know that you mentioned that it wasn't necessarily in your plan to be on TV. It sounded like you were actually going to say no to the opportunity. So now that you've had that experience, has that shifted, you know, your plans for the future and what you're thinking about doing with your career?Luke: I think one big thing that it did change for me and — I mean, it's not like I want to pursue the largest TV career or whatever — but I think watching myself for the first time, knowing the mistakes that I've made on the show and knowing they were coming. And I mean, I could I could have crawled under a rock and, you know, never came out, you know, after seeing myself on TV. But to be honest, I never would have thought that I enjoyed watching myself. And I think that was the biggest confidence booster that I needed from going on to the show and knowing that I felt great in a situation that I thought I would never feel good in. So I think that is giving me the growth to no matter what it is that I do foward, it might be hard, but I feel I can do it.Eleni: We had a chef with dyslexia on a previous episode and that really got me thinking. What do you think it is about cooking and dyslexia that's so compatible?Luke: I mean, I think it depends on the environment, of course. But I mean, in some situations, like in the classroom where it might, you know, look really unorganized, trying to be in one's one spot and, you know, having to look at all these words and things. And I could feel really unorganized and whatever. But when I'm in an environment where I'm in charge of 30 people, I have five tasks that are going. And we also have an end goal for the day. And I need to, "Oh, this isn't working, stop and go here" and organizing this giant orchestra. To me, being able to multitask in what we called an organized chaos felt very comforting. You know, I think maybe having the learning disabilities that I had were maybe giving me a different tool that no one else had to be able to organize myself through that chaos and not feel overwhelmed. I think that could be a big thing.Eleni: It just doesn't feel like chaos to you.Luke: I mean, it does, but I enjoy it.Eleni: What else do you enjoy about cooking?Luke: I enjoy the feeling that you do get when you when you're finding that new flavor, you're finding that new thing that you weren't good at doing before. It can be stressful, but not only is that end result going to either have you taste something that's very delicious, or you're going to serve it to somebody and you're going to get a reaction out of them that can then fulfill you as well and fulfill them. So I think that, you know, the overall feeling of either helping yourself, helping somebody else out, helping a community through just the act of what you might struggle with throughout the day and have it be such a positive thing to me, I think is great with it.Eleni: Well, yeah. Thank you so much for talking to me today.Luke: Thank you very much for letting me be part of this podcast.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out our show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at u.org/workplace. That's the letter U, dot org, slash workspace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Coffee as a career? ADHD, dyslexia, and my dream job
David Rubinstein took his love for coffee and turned it into a career. Learn about how his learning differences became his strengths. What if you loved coffee so much that you made it your career? That’s exactly what David Rubinstein is doing — and it’s working for his ADHD and dyslexia. In this episode, David shares how his unique combination of interests and learning differences led him on a career path with stops along the way as an electrician and as a champion cyclist. Today, as a coffee professional, he packs four jobs into one: barista, espresso machine technician, roaster, and teacher of all things coffee. All that action keeps David on his toes and engaged.David also talks about growing up with ADHD and dyslexia in a conservative Orthodox Jewish family. He explains how he was able to find community and understand his passions, and he encourages others to do what they love. Learn about how David’s differences have been his biggest strengths — from speaking five languages to getting things done like Flash Gordon. And pick up a coffee fact or two along the way!Related resourcesCaffeine and ADHDCareer paths for people who don’t want to sit at a deskWhat is ADHD? Episode transcriptDavid: When I was in the eighth grade, I wanted coffee in school, and the coffee that they had was, like, really terrible. So what I did is I borrowed my dad's angle grinder, and I cut a hole in the back of my locker so that I could run the wire to my coffee maker from my locker to the outlet that's hidden behind the lockers. That hole is probably still there.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Many of us like to start our days with a good cup of coffee. I know I do. But what if you love coffee so much that you made it into your career? Today's guest, David Rubinstein, has done just that. He's a barista and espresso machine technician, a coffee roaster, and a teacher of all things coffee. David also has dyslexia and ADHD.We're going to talk about why having these four roles works for him and his learning differences. Full disclosure: We've been friends for a few years. I've been able to visit him at work and see him in action. So I'm excited to have him on the show. Welcome to the show, David.David: Thank you. It's good to be here.Eleni: So you're in a job right now where you perform a number of different roles. Do you want to talk a little bit about what each of those roles are and why they appeal to you in context of the way your brain works and the way your body works?David: I work in coffee in a bunch of different ways. So I guess the most customer-facing would be that you'll see me behind the bar. I also fix espresso machines and install them and do all sorts of tech work around maintaining and upkeep of coffee equipment, as well as roast coffee on occasion and teach classes mostly in the coffee tech part of the job.And I guess they all appeal to me because I can take this one thing that I love and kind of work it into four different jobs, which kind of keeps me interested and stimulated. And they're all with my hands, which is great — or teaching, with my mouth, I guess, but also really like showing people is, is part of the way that I teach. So again, still with my hands, and then, yeah, that feels really good for me.Eleni: Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about why working with your hands feels good and perhaps how it might relate to some of your differences?David: Being able to work with my hands means that I don't have to really, like, think in the same way as if I were, like, working with a computer or something like that and looking at a screen. Where I get kind of this tactile feedback that really, like, works for me and helps me understand what I'm doing. The more I have something in my hands, the more I feel it, the easier it is for me to, like, retain that knowledge and do it again and do it better and repeat it, and yada yada.Eleni: Yeah, definitely. Do you want to talk a little bit about what your differences are and how that might relate?David: Yeah. So I was diagnosed as dyslexic from early childhood, and that was, like, always, you know, trouble in school and kind of having the words jump off the page and all that. I remember, like, copying exercises from the blackboard, like, one letter at a time and losing my place every single time and just being so infuriated with that whole process.I also recently discovered that I have ADD or ADHD, and that's been really interesting and has put, like, my, all these different, like, times in my life into perspective in a way that I never had before and always just was kind of confused by. But even today, like having a conversation with somebody and all of a sudden having this, like, urge to, like, run out and do this one thing and then want to come back to the conversation, I kind of now have an understanding of, like, where that comes from. And that's been super powerful and great.Eleni: Do you want to talk about whether there have been any reflections that are related to, like, job or career choices?David: Yeah, for sure. I think the job that I have today, like, I don't read anything. I don't organize any numbers or letters. I'm really happy about that. And I'm sure I picked that career subconsciously, knowing that, hey, I can't do that. Or consciously, I guess that falls into the dyslexia part of it. And also like having four roles within my company, I think that really speaks to my ADD side and being, like, I would not be able to stay with this job if it didn't continuously keep me stimulated. So being able to, like, pick a career that has that is, you know, super powerful. A career that, like, I kind of don't have to — that, that my, my different learning style doesn't limit me. In fact, it probably is a boon.Eleni: Yeah. And I think that you're in a pretty unique and, like, lucky position in the sense that your challenges don't come up for you at work. Now that you're a little bit more aware, are there any deliberate choices that you're making when you're thinking about how your strengths or challenges might translate into day-to-day work?David: An interesting question. I think moving forward that's definitely something I'm going to keep in mind as I navigate career and work. And today I think, like, there's, like, this understanding of, like, a task at work that I might delegate to someone else.And I think, like, those instinctual choices have served me really well in the past. I don't do my own scheduling. I don't do my own billing. I don't do my own ordering. Uh, anything, like, along those administrative lines, somebody else takes care of. And I get to focus on the things that I'm good at, like the work with my hands, the understanding of these complex mechanical things, interaction with people. Say, like, a cafe shift, there's a line out the door and you have to make a thousand drinks in 10 minutes and being able to have this almost Flash Gordon–like speed to execute.Eleni: Do you want to explain what Flash Gordon is?David: Yeah, so Flash Gordon is, like, a comic book slash movie character. The Flash. Who, you know, is super speed everything. But also the, the whole word came about from my partner, who would be, like, in the kitchen, like, you know, chatting or whatever. And she'd be like, "Oh, can you wash the dishes?"I'll be like, "Yeah, sure." And then like 10 minutes later, she'll be like, "Hey, what? How are the dishes done? You were in front of me the whole time. I didn't see you do it." Or something along those lines and just this, and I think, like, my co-workers sometimes feel it also, where they'll, like, turn around and be like, "It's all done already?" That's Flash Gordon-ing.Eleni: Another thing that we've talked about in the past is acknowledging that maybe management isn't for you and turning down some of those opportunities. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and why you haven't gone in that direction?David: I really enjoy human connection and being able to kind of be at eye level with everyone around me. And I think, like, some of the managerial roles that I have been offered kind of would, like, change that and, like, create this kind of power dynamic that doesn't allow me to have that eye-level relationship that I really want with everyone around me. And you mentioned that, like, not everybody has, has found their — a way to make all their strengths work for them. And you know, their learning differences are apparent in some of their work. And I think, like, everybody has that to some extent. And even me, like, I'm going to be looking for other opportunities in the future, and there's going to be things that don't perfectly align. And it's just a continuous navigation through life of figuring out what works and what doesn't.Eleni: Yeah, definitely. It's all an experiment. Well, I know you talked a little bit about coffee machine repair, and I think you called it the "coffee tech" side of things. And I think that's such an interesting niche and something that I didn't really know there was a demand for or that there was a field in this. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you discovered it and why you like it?David: Yeah. My family is very crafty, I guess is the best word. And I was an electrician for a little while and did some of that, and then did not enjoy the fact that it didn't have that human experience and that human connection. So I wanted to move away from that, and I knew that coffee was a passion of mine, and I wanted to see how I could work in that space but still make rent, because coffee doesn't pay a lot of money. So it was kind of, like, an understanding of, oh, here's an interesting skill that I have through electric work. Can I kind of at least say that I know how to fix espresso machines well enough to get some hands-on experience in the field on my own? And then I actually know how to do it now. So there was a little bit of that, and, yeah, that was kind of, like, the — you know, I had a friend that once told me that you're never, you're probably not going to be the best at anything. But if you take this interesting combination of all the things that you're pretty good at, you might be the best at this combination.So I kind of, like, thought through that. I was like, well, I like coffee. I'm pretty good with my hands and technical stuff. I know some electric work. Should probably poke around them, the inside of the things that are making the coffee. And that's kind of how I landed where I am.Eleni: I've heard you refer to it as kind of like being the coffee equivalent of a car mechanic, maybe.David: Yeah. You know, cars need yearly maintenance, your espresso machine needs yearly maintenance. They both have plumbing. They both have electric. They both have a power source.Eleni: Do you kind of feel like there's an element of, you know, problem-solving or, like, detective work of like, "Ooh, what happened? What can I do?"David: For sure. It's like, is it clicking in this way? Is it not clicking in that way? Is there steam coming from here or not? That's kind of like, you know, like the plumber will come to your house, you know, will, like, bang on the wall, hit a little pipe, and everything will start working again. And then charges you a thousand dollars. And you're like, "Why is that a thousand dollars?" And he's like, "Because I knew where to hit. You didn't." And that kind of, like, speaks to, you know, the experience in the field and figuring out how to do that.Eleni: Does it translate as a skill into other areas?David: I wish it did more. They're pretty specialized. It's pretty nuanced. And the places that it does translate to, I — you know, I guess I know plumbing now. I don't really plan on being a plumber, so, yeah, I wish —Eleni: Can you fix your own kitchen sink, though?David: I definitely can.Eleni: That's helpful.David: Yeah.Eleni: Helpful life skill.David: For sure. Eleni: And you talked briefly about loving coffee. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you love about coffee and maybe some fun facts around coffee that you like to share with people?David: Sure. So what I love about coffee is that it's drank by so many people all around the world, and it's kind of this unifying human experience that is shared by so many. And that, like, leaves room for, like, amazing conversation and amazing connection, which, you know, it's kind of, like, almost, like, connection through coffee, as opposed to just this brown water that we drink.And I love the taste. I think it's delicious. I'd probably be — I don't know where I'd be without caffeine in my life. So that's, like, some of the things that I love. Um, interesting facts. So if you look at your whole coffee beans and you flip — there's the round side and the flat side, and the flat side kind of has this indent in it. So if it has a lighter-colored inside of that little crack, then they used water to process it. And if the indent inside is the same color as the rest of the coffee bean, that means that it was dried on beds, kind of like concrete slabs that the coffee's, like, spread in a single layer to dry the fruit out so that they can then easier remove the pit from it. Other fun facts? Um —Eleni: The tasting notes?David: Tasting notes are, like, super subjective. Everyone has their own, and —Eleni: You said something about there's more tasting notes in coffee than wine or something. Is that a fact?David: Yeah. There's three times as many tastes that are recognized. Over a thousand different tastes in coffee and only a little over 300 in wine. So you can say that it's three times more nuanced than wine, although I'm sure some wine people will get very upset at that.Eleni: Maybe we'll have a wine person on the show as another episode.David: There you go. They can, they can give their rebuttal. Oh, and the world's largest coffee-producing country is actually not one that you'd think it is. And I might be getting, this might be the second largest, not the largest, um, but it's actually —Eleni: Oh, I think I know the answer to this.David: Do you? What do you think it is?Eleni: I think it's Vietnam.David: Yeah, you're right. It is.Eleni: Yeah, winning in trivia!David: Um, but everyone's like, oh, Colombia or Brazil, but no, it's Vietnam.Eleni: I remember being surprised by it because I would've thought it was, like, Colombia or Guatemala or somewhere in Central or South America.Is there a story around how you kind of became focused on coffee and how that interest became so prominent?David: So when I was in the eighth grade, I wanted coffee in school, and the coffee that they had was, like, really terrible. So what I did is I borrowed my dad's angle grinder, and I cut a hole in the back of my locker so that I could run the wire to my coffee maker from my locker to the outlet that's hidden behind the lockers.Eleni: That is ingenious.David: That hole is probably still there.Eleni: Oh my God. Was it ever discovered?David: No, it wasn't, actually, but there was definitely, like, classmates of mine, they were like, "Oh, you have coffee? Can I get a cup?" But yeah, no, no, I never got, like, in trouble or anything for it. It was my little secret.Eleni: Well, that's an early indication of some interest in electrical work.David: I suppose.Eleni: Well, I think that that was actually a good segue because I was going to ask you. You know, you have this interest in coffee. Do you want to share some other hobbies or interests that have kind of come up throughout the years and whether they led to other jobs and career paths?David: I was a professional cyclist for a point that led to almost a professional career path, but not quite.Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about that story?David: Yeah. I found that the intense physical exercise to kind of, now I realize after this ADD diagnosis, I'd be like, "Oh, that's what I was doing to kind of, like, quiet the mind and quiet the body and kind of have this, like, intense physical space to kind of, like, let all that extra energy go."And I became like really, like, addicted to this, to this release, and ended up cycling for a, like, local cycling team here in New York and racing and during all of that, which led to my team sending everyone on the team to a training camp in a different country of your choosing. And I had some friends that I was visiting in Israel. So I chose to go there for my training camp, which led to me speaking to the Israeli national team to join their team, which led to a whole new life experience. And so I kind of, like, did not get back on my return flight to the States and ended up staying there for five years.Eleni: Which maybe talks a little bit to, I don't know, going with the flow of the moment, perhaps.David: Maybe.Eleni: I know you grew up in, you know, a fairly conservative Orthodox Jewish community. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, and how and if that played a role in your understanding and acceptance of some of your differences?David: I think that, like, mental health is really not spoken about in a lot of, um, conservative communities, or it's overlooked, when it's just like, "Oh, you should just turn to God." Which is not really a helpful way of, way to put it. So I think there was definitely some of that, which I was like, well, "I turned to God and it didn't work for me. So maybe let's try something else." But also, like, at the same time, like what is 20 years ago, research was just coming out about like neurodivergence and dyslexia, and especially, like, within more insular communities, which are always 10 years behind, at least, on everything. So there was nothing. So that was never really, like, spoken about, discovered — no one ever like tested me for ADD. Um, and so that was unhelpful.Eleni: So I'm curious how you ended up with your dyslexia diagnosis.David: I think it was more like, oh, we were trying to, like, study, like, the Talmud and the Torah for many hours a day. And it got to this point where it was very, very apparent and very clear that I could not read one letter of it.My mom is in the teaching field. So I think that was, like, kind of her push to, like, see where this is coming from. And then once I did get the diagnosis, not much was really done with it. And it was like, "Oh, you're dyslexic. Cool. Still, read the Talmud. Have fun." So I, yeah, so, like, I think there was kind of, like, this, even though you have the letters, um, or, you know, you're dyslexic and you have this learning difference, I don't think there was any understanding of like, "Oh, let's do something about it." It was kind of ignored.Eleni: Do you think that anything in particular happened that helped you shift away from, you know, the stigma of that and being a little bit more open and, like, getting to the place where you're comfortable enough talking about it on a podcast?David: Yeah, I definitely think there was. I think the biggest one was when I came back to the States, I was really looking for community. And I had been exposed briefly to partner acrobatics, or AcroYoga, when I was living in Israel. And when I came back to the States, I kind of found my community through that. And that's a space that very much, like, um, celebrates communication, openness, working through problems. It's very collaborative. And I think just being in spaces like that really helped me both look inwards because there's a lot of introspection in, like, "Oh, why didn't this work?" or "How can we make this better?" And just again, being around people in places that celebrate individualism really, really helps with coming to your own individualism and really celebrating that.Eleni: What have you come to, like, love and appreciate about your differences?David: Oh, that's such a good question. I really, like, love this ability to, you know, you have a task list of 15 things and to just like, you know, one after the next, just go, go, go, go, go, and get it all done. That's, like, that sense of accomplishment is really great. And I really enjoy that ability.Eleni: What about, what about from the dyslexia?David: I don't know if this is connected, but I do have, like, I'm really good with languages. The spoken word is, like, much, much more — maybe, like, that part of my brain developed a little bit more to kind of compensate.I speak three languages and understand two others, and they all come really easily and naturally to me.Eleni: What languages are they?David: I speak English, Yiddish, and Hebrew, and I understand German and Arabic.Eleni: Wow. I didn't know that. How did you go about learning those languages if you couldn't necessarily read in those languages?David: I think just, like, more immersion. I still can't read any of those languages, but just being, hearing them around me and kind of, like, facial recognition and context, it really comes pretty naturally to me.Eleni: Super cool. I wish I could do that. At some point in the conversation, you mentioned, you know, like, eventually you might be looking for the next thing. So I would love to hear your philosophy around jobs or careers, and, you know, what you're thinking in the long term.David: Yeah, I think that there's, like, two different ways to approach work. There's the "I want to do the thing that I love" or "I want to make enough money to do the things that I love." And I'm pretty well rooted in the "I want to do the thing that I love" camp. Doing a job that pays well that doesn't fill me — it just feels really exhausting and draining. So I think it's kind of, like, take all of these, like, unique combinations of yourself, like, all the different things that you love, throw it on a sticky note, throw it on the wall, and I'm sure over time, like, the right thing will, will come to you.Eleni: Yeah. That's great advice. Thanks for being here, David. I was going to say, do you want to say "thank you" in all five languages?David: Shukran. Todah rabah. Danke. Adank. Thank you.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" was created by Andrew Lee and is produced by Gretchen Vierstra and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia and anxiety in kids
Kids know how important reading is. They hear it from their parents and teachers starting at a very young age. For kids with dyslexia, struggling with such a vital skill can create a lot of stress. And that can lead to anxiety.Usually, these feelings are limited to situations that involve reading. But some kids with dyslexia develop a bigger problem with anxiety. They worry far in advance about having to read and may even dread it.When kids with dyslexia have anxiety, they often get caught up in “what ifs.” What if the other kids see me reading an easy book and think I'm stupid? What if the teacher calls on me to read and I trip over the words?They might be afraid of failing, or of being judged or embarrassed. There may even be moments when they fear they’ll never learn or succeed at anything because of their reading challenges. That can lead them to stop trying or avoid challenges.Getting the right type of support and reading instruction can make a big difference. Kids see that their skills improve with support and hard work. And those improvements can help reduce anxiety and build self-esteem.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Workplace disclosure as an editor with dyslexia
Darcey Gohring has dyslexia, and didn’t tell anyone she worked with for 25 years. Now, as an established writer and editor, she’s speaking out. Darcey Gohring was diagnosed with dyslexia as a child. But she didn’t feel comfortable disclosing her dyslexia at work until she was a manager. She was scared her co-workers in the editing and writing world would look at her work differently. Now, she teaches writing classes and is an editor at Zibby Magazine. When Darcey was diagnosed, her father didn’t believe that her dyslexia was real. He thought that she just needed to “try harder.” This shame followed her into adulthood. And it made her worry about what her colleagues would think of her learning difference. But when she got her promotion, she realized she didn’t need to worry. Now, as a manager and teacher, she supports others in being vulnerable and sharing their stories. Listen in to hear more about disclosure in the workplace, and how Darcey’s own life experience inspired her upcoming novel. Related resourcesDarcey’s Business Insider article: I hid my dyslexia at work for 25 years because I was tired of being labeled. Now I’m embracing it.Pros and cons of disclosing a disability to employersDyslexia and creativity: What you need to knowTranscriptDarcey: It could be dyslexia, it could be something else. But when you have a challenge like this, I mean, there is something healing about writing your story, even if you never put it out there. But putting it on the page or, you know, typing it in the screen and, you know, sort of examining it and being like, "Look what I've gone through." I also think it's an opportunity to see, you know, how far you've come. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. Darcey Gohring is an editor at Zibby Magazine and also hosts their online writing community. In addition to helping writers polish their stories for publications in Zibby, Darcey leads community discussions and teaches the craft of writing. And, like many editors, Darcey is also a writer herself. She recently published an essay in Insider about being an editor with dyslexia. And while she's mostly written nonfiction, she's also working on a novel inspired by her own dyslexia experience. Welcome to the show, Darcey. Darcey: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Eleni: We've actually had a variety of different writers on the show already with dyslexia. We've had a novelist and a comedy writer. And, you know, as you acknowledge, it's not necessarily a career that you would expect of someone with dyslexia. So, how do you think that your dyslexia actually makes you a really great writer and a good editor? Darcey: I mean, I think for so many, dyslexia is one of the biggest things that, you know, even as a child is that you have, my imagination worked differently. I was creative from the very beginning. I think they always talk about being able to see things in pictures as opposed to words. So, writing stories, being able to envision the way something, you know, would read and how it would hit somebody came very easily to me in this job. Obviously, there were challenges when I was diagnosed in third grade and ended up having to leave the school I was in, go to a new school because the first school did not have any accommodations or any help for me. And, you know, there are a lot of challenges that go with that. But I think that as I grew, it just, it was so apparent that I loved movies. I loved books, I love stories. That was really where I wanted to be, was doing something in that capacity. Eleni: I think it's really interesting to make the distinction between it's almost like the physical act of writing a word and spelling a word out versus like the bigger picture of like coming up with a story and like creating a narrative. People sometimes get those things conflated, but I think the way that you described it really kind of exemplifies the difference there. Darcey: Yeah, and I think that when we, in the editorial field, we talk a lot about like copy editors versus editors versus storytellers versus writers. And I don't know if you know, the general public is as aware, like a copy editor’s job is to like, account for every comma and make sure it's all, you know, grammatically correct. I always think of the copy editor more as the mathematical mind. It's a very nitty-gritty. You really have to pay attention to every little detail, to really, you know, as someone with this, I mean, I'm using what I think of as GIFs to create stories and to help other people tell their stories. Eleni: It's almost like the editor is like the strategic thinker, like, you know, I think about how that works, like in a, in a product setting, and that's how I would think of it too. So, that's really interesting. I know that you talked about, you know, having to advocate for yourself in school and people making assumptions about you because of your diagnosis and there being stigma around perhaps like what your ability or capability because of your label. I know that because of that stigma that you faced, you didn't talk about your dyslexia for a long time. And I know that you've written an article about how now you kind of feel like you no longer have to hide it. So, I would love to hear, like, what that turning point was for you and like, how did it feel like letting go of, you know, some of that shame and stigma, you know, and letting go of the secrecy and being a little bit more, like out and proud about it? Darcey: Yeah. I mean, it was always something that I really held close to the vest. I wasn't wanting to tell people about it, particularly because of the field that I was in. I think for a long time, especially when I was a very young writer and editor, I would make mistakes and I would often wonder if it was because maybe I shouldn't be doing this job. Maybe this isn't the right field for me, you know. But I, I mean, I got more comfortable with it. And especially, I mean, the aspect of being an editor allowed me to see other people's writing, too, and to see that it's not the dyslexia that's making the mistake. It's that we're human beings and we make mistakes and everybody does them. I actually was listening to an author panel of a group of writers, and they were all talking about, you know, sort of shame around writing, some of it to do with, you know, when we're telling our personal stories, it's a hard thing and you're being very vulnerable. You're letting people into like know things that you wouldn't normally tell them, and you're doing it in a public fashion. And, you know, another being just this whole idea that a lot of us writers have that's called imposter syndrome, which is just that, you know, "At what point will I feel like I'm a real writer?" So, I was listening to this conversation, and I was trying to connect it to my own life and think about the things as a writer that I've felt shame around. And it just kind of came over me, almost like a fog. It just hit me that the dyslexia was the thing. And I actually had been working on a book simultaneously, which I recently finished. And, you know, I had decided that the main character was going to have dyslexia, but it didn't really play that much into it. And I just started to think of the opportunity of talking about this and also, you know, making the dyslexia play more into the plot of the book because I, it occurred to me that I had never as a child, you know, the book is really, follows a character from 17 to early twenties. And I had never read a book with the main character being dyslexic. And I just thought, you know, that would have meant a lot to me. And so, a lot of the essay that I wrote was just sort of me thinking about this and saying, like, I think it's important for me to be now wearing this as almost like a badge of honor. Like, I'm proud of it. Eleni: Totally. I know that you talked about writing nonfiction and memoir and personal story. What was it like for you writing a fiction novel? Darcey: It's been a really rewarding journey, writing the book, the novel. I had sat down and just I wanted to write this story sort of the coming-of-age story of some things I had gone through with not just the dyslexia, but, you know, my relationship with my father. You know, when I was growing up, my father, who's no longer alive, he really didn't believe in dyslexia. And that was a huge challenge for me. He really felt that it was sort of a made-up diagnosis and that it was just that I wasn't trying hard enough, or I wasn't doing, you know. So that really played into a lot of how I felt about it because it was so, you know, enmeshed with shame. You know, that was a huge element to the book, was just, you know, sort of like giving a story to how it feels when somebody doesn't really, you know, believe in what you're saying and doesn't support it. You know, he didn't understand why I had to have accommodations or why I couldn't go to a certain college. He wanted me to go to a really big college. And it was, you know, by all accounts, not a good idea that I, you know, really I should have been in. And I was, I did go to a college that had much smaller class sizes, and it was a much more nurturing environment. And that was probably one of the most important decisions I ever made because it was really where I blossomed. You know, it was like where I was taking English classes and I was in this, you know, small classrooms with maybe 20, 25 people. And I stopped being afraid to speak out and started talking. And I got so much feedback from my professors. So, it was really important. But that element of the story, it's a really important element of the book. Is sort of this relationship between her and her father and the fact that that was, you know, something that he really didn't believe in. And I felt I was able to write about it because I lived it. I knew exactly how that felt, you know? Eleni: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important to acknowledge, like, the impact of, like, minimizing or like pretending things aren't happening. It kind of falls under that like, "Let's sweep it under the rug and pretend that it's not there." And like, that's where like, then the shame comes up. Darcey: Oh, yeah, "You're just being lazy. You're not listening," you know, "You're not…," all those things. And none of that was true. So, it definitely played into the book and into, you know, sort of I mean, I think when you go through something like that and you don't have the support, you can either, you know, it can really knock you down or it can drive you to show them that they're wrong. And in my case, I was lucky enough that I was going to prove that I could do, you know, what I wanted to do and all that stuff, so...Eleni: I hear that a lot in my research too, where it's like it's extra disheartening when you're told you're just lazy and not trying hard enough when it actually feels like you're trying harder than like all of your peers. It's like, "Well, I know that's not true. Like, I'm putting in twice as much effort, but it's like that like the outcome isn't actually reflective of the work that I'm putting in."Darcey: Absolutely. Eleni: I think visibility or presentation, having role models, is super important. It's pretty amazing that now that you can be in that role and be that person both like as a role model in terms of the work that you do and then also like creating these characters. I think that's wonderful. Eleni: You briefly mentioned teaching, and I know that that's been a recent endeavor really since COVID, and I would love to hear a little bit more about how you got started on that and, you know, how your dyslexia might contribute to you being a good teacher. Darcey: Well, I had written a lot of articles. I actually had breast cancer in the first few weeks of the COVID lockdown. And so, I had written a lot of articles about that. And I had also been a contributor to a book, an anthology book. So, I began to do speaking engagements for that and, you know, readings for the book. And it really sort of transformed into workshops that were workshops based around writing your own story, you know, writing your personal story. And then, you know, obviously that kind of led to doing the classes and being an instructor. And I just love it. I love working with people. I love hearing everybody's stories. You know, I think it makes you look at people in the grocery store differently because you realize that every single person has a story. Eleni: Definitely. Darcey: Every single person has their own challenges that they're dealing with. And I just love like helping people be able to tell their stories. And I mean, you know, I know how healing it is for me. I think there's value, even if, you know, when you have challenges like this, it could be dyslexia, it could be something else. But when you have challenges like this, I mean, there is something healing about writing your story, even if you never put it out there. But putting it on the page or, you know, typing it in the screen and, you know, sort of examining it and being like, "Look what I've gone through." I also think it's an opportunity to see, you know, how far you've come. Eleni: Is there anything that you think that you do differently in terms of how you approach teaching, like because of your experience and like the way that you learn? Like, has that influenced the way that you then pass on knowledge? Darcey: Yes, because I think what it's done is that I always knew that I was the kid with the biggest imagination and the most probably going on in my head in the classroom. But I was also excruciatingly shy and very quiet as a young person. Growing up I always knew that I had so much going on in my head, but I just wasn't brave enough to share it. And so, working with students, I think I understand that I want to hear from all of them. I want to hear all their experiences. I want to know because I know what that feels like to be sitting there and wanting to contribute to the conversation but feeling too scared to do so. It has made me someone that in any classroom I'm in, in any situation, I want everyone to feel comfortable. I want them to feel that they can be themselves and that their stories matter and that, you know, it's OK to be vulnerable and all those things. Eleni: I know we already talked about it being, you know, a bit of a relief for you to, like, shed your label and like not talk about dyslexia for a long time. And, you know, I'm curious about whether you were still able to get the support that you needed without like talking about the dyslexia and like now reflecting back and examining where you are now, like if there's anything that you wish that you had asked for earlier in your career. Darcey: Well, I will say I do think that we've come a long way. It's a very different time. I don't know if I had told people when I first started out what the reaction would have been. I don't necessarily know if what I was doing was, you know, in a way, it was sort of protecting myself. You know, and it's funny, I actually when I wrote the piece for Business Insider about the dyslexia, one of my first editors, actually the man that hired me as an intern, my first job ever, he was one of the first people to comment on it and say, "I had no idea. You did an amazing job. Like, you know, none of us knew and you shouldn't have worried about," you know, kind of thing because, you know, it wasn't apparent at all. So, I guess what I'm saying is I think things have changed enough now that I feel comfortable sharing it. Eleni: Yeah. Darcey: But I don't know if that would have been the case early on. Eleni: Yeah. One thing that's come up a lot in my research is, you know, whilst self-advocacy is really important, actually, what's also important is having the self-awareness to know when it is appropriate or not to disclose. And if you're in an environment that will support you or will actually, you know, stigmatize you. And as you said, you know, Judge, whether or not you can do your job, you know, there's like there is like an element of self-protection that needs to happen too. And like, ideally, we want to be in a world where, like every environment is supportive and like, everyone's response is positive. But the reality is that, you know, there are workplaces that won't be as understanding and accommodating. And really, it's just like putting yourself in the environments that will be, you know. Yeah, until we get to a place where everywhere is great. Darcey: Yeah. I mean, this is funny because as you're saying that, I'm thinking, you know, as a writer, we often talk about that, is that how important it is for us to surround ourselves with people who, like other writers, who understand and sort of support you and what you're doing. Because it's a funny job, and especially when you're writing a book, I think, because, you know, it's sort of like if someone's never done that and they don't understand it, they're like, "Wait, so you're locking yourself in a room for, you know, an entire day and, you know, for a year?" So, I think there is that element of, you know, what you're talking about that is sort of like to be around people that maybe get it. But it is amazing to me how many people, like I said, since I wrote this article, since I've been more open about telling people how many people say, you know, "Oh, I have dyslexia too, or I have a child with..." is like, I mean, I do think that's why the conversation is so important, because... Eleni: Totally. Darcey: ...it touches so many people. And, you know, you want them to know that. It's not like there's no I do know that, you know, from having friends that have children with dyslexia or other learning disabilities that it's often feels like they're especially in the first few years of school, that, you know, "How is this all going to work out?" And I think that it's so important for people to hear like "It will work out. You're going to be OK."Eleni: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story, Darcey. Darcey: Yeah. Thank you. It was great. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you. So, we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out our show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at U.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot ORG slash workplace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is a production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our Editorial Director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director and Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia in grade school: 4 signs you might see
Signs of dyslexia get easier to spot in grade school. That’s because kids start doing more reading and writing. Here’s what you might see in your child. 1. Trouble sounding out new words Dyslexia makes it hard for kids to sound out or “decode” words. Your child might still not be sure which letters make which sounds. Sounding out unfamiliar words may be a big struggle, too. Your child may not want to read out loud to avoid being embarrassed. 2. Being confused or bored by books Even books about favorite characters may not seem interesting to kids with dyslexia. At school, your child may read slowly and have trouble understanding sentences and longer text.3. Not remembering details in stories Kids with dyslexia might have trouble remembering what happens in a story. They can have a hard time connecting what they read to what they already know. And sometimes, they concentrate so hard on reading that they often try to just “get it done” rather than really learning from a book. 4. Mixing up the order of letters Your child may mispronounce a lot of words, like saying “mazagine” instead of “magazine.” At school, your child may still misspell common words, like writing “wuz” instead of “was.” Dyslexia doesn’t just affect reading skills. It can cause problems with spelling and writing, too.Explore signs of dyslexia at different ages and steps to take if you think your child might have dyslexia.
The Opportunity GapWisdom for families from LeDerick Horne, poet with dyslexia
Growing up, LeDerick Horne couldn’t read. Today, he’s a poet, activist, and person thriving with dyslexia. Hear his advice for families of color.LeDerick Horne Black man, poet, activist, person dyslexia. He’s spoken White House. wrote definitive book hidden disabilities. life could turned differently.As child, LeDerick couldn’t read. labeled “neurologically impaired” put separate special education classes. struggled find place Black man America learning differences. says one mistake could led prison worse, like many classmates.In episode, hosts Julian Saavedra Marissa Wallace talk LeDerick people made difference life. LeDerick shares advice help kids color learning differences thrive. Stay tuned end episode special reading LeDerick poem inspire family.Related resources Video: challenges African American learns thinks differentlyVideo: LeDerick Horne, poet activist learning disabilitiesTo Black America learning disabilityEpisode transcriptLeDerick: words describe this, "you're dumb" "you're stupid," neurological, biological roots behind mind works way does. label, part gives community. able say, "I dyslexic like Harry Belafonte dyslexic. dyslexic like Muhammad Ali dyslexic." could start making connections, narrative connecting people's narratives. just, that's empowering. It's uplifting act. That's why, like silences, it's never going golden. always give words experience.Julian: Welcome "The Opportunity Gap," podcast families kids color learn think differently. explore issues privilege, race, identity. goal help advocate child. I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian worked together years teachers public charter school Philadelphia, saw opportunity gaps firsthand.Julian: we're parents kids color. personal us.Welcome back, everybody. Julian Saavedra here. Hey, Marissa, what's going on?Marissa: Hi, Julian. Oh, know, excitement building today.Julian: Somehow, someway, incredibly fortunate continue really phenomenal people podcast. guest spoken United Nations; spoken White House. Black man, poet, activist, person living dyslexia. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Mr. LeDerick Horne.LeDerick: Hello, hello.Julian: Um, want make sure jump actual interview portion show. explained specifically one disability we're going focusing on.We're focusing dyslexia. Dyslexia learning disability reading. may also something student hard time reading comprehension, spelling, writing. making sure speak dyslexia, we're specifically focusing idea reading.Marissa: Thank you, Julian. Thanks clarifying listeners. thank you, LeDerick, incredibly much. beyond grateful you. want take back early days. would love tell us, tell listeners, school like world look like time?LeDerick: think different points time school times challenging, times uplifting. started education private school, Catholic school New Brunswick, New Jersey — St Peter's. kindergarten first grade, first time. first grade second time. know, remember kid. remember enjoying school around kids, even would struggling academically. recall first family, recommended placed back district. eventually recognized someone needed evaluated. initially given label neurologically impaired. great teacher, Ms. Priscilla Yates, first special ed teacher, much love poured every one us, feeling still today, investment caring had. also remember school district started gifted talented program, brand-new thing.And Ms. Yates really encouraged go part class. remember stepping first time feeling totally overwhelmed. I, point, I'd special ed years, realized moment, think I'd become institutionalized. placed environment little interaction students outside special ed, felt overwhelming. Middle school, lot emotion around, think, identity fit world, thought got good putting front OK. internally OK. got high school, challenging putting front maintain. got winter junior year, always describe emotional breakdown. primarily motivated think, one, stress trying like pass normal, also fear knowing going happen graduated high school. I, time know, like weren't really much way transition planning, knew I, like, wanted go college, didn't think folks like could go college read books solve complicated math problems, just, time. career goal seemed like always going like manual labor. depressed clearly showing signs needed mental health support.I'm fortunate I've totally won parent lottery. supportive family. think I've also resilient, used horrible time opportunity rebuild bounce back. started talking going college then, yeah, world changed me.Julian: Wow. love you're able reflective, like able look back identify specific moments time school career shifts. call like points diversion. one two three paths could chosen, path chose led specific outcome. So, thank that.LeDerick: Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, no, point divergence piece think important because, moment, I'm clear, like have, friends growing jail time. know, got involved kind behavior. And, would try point folks like, I'm pretty bright guy, many classmates, people brilliant.But think much around much support have. then, sadly enough, think it's also role dice. Like plenty times where, know, — don't know, encounter gone wrong way, maybe wouldn't today. also know I, existential dread think carried long time young person just, didn't think going live past 25. didn't think cards me.Just breakdown, know suicidal. I've described past like — clearest thing remember like wanting get altercation police officer that, get locked I'd shot killed. police officers name it: call death cop. And, um, yeah, are, dark times, fortunate none took place. given little bit time work little bit step potential.Marissa: That's really raw real, I'm appreciative you're point, obviously, life go reflect understand everything got exactly are.Julian: you, discover dyslexic? occur you?LeDerick: Uh, language interesting. gets label dyslexia doesn't. definitely think label privilege, right? So, grew New Jersey. born '77, I'm part first generation students really able take advantage Individuals Disabilities Education Act creation special education. state, one labels tossed around lot, particularly boys particularly boys color, "neurologically impaired." carried throughout entire time. like either went neurologically impaired class went behavior class, right? remember kids behavior class. But got college. my, uh, Middlesex County College, were, great support program students learning disabilities, attention issues, also provided evaluations. five years getting ready transfer university, asked evaluated. was, actually fun experience point, won many battles. learned write. I'd become math major. I'd like become strong self-advocate. And sitting evaluation, laughing places would struggle spelling reading, you. also like, slam dunking, like, remember, spatial relations question, lady
Dyslexia and depression
Kids with dyslexia are more likely than other kids to have depression, especially as they reach their teen years. (Depression is also common in kids with ADHD.) Why do dyslexia and depression often co-occur in young people, as well as in adults? Researchers point to a few reasons:Stress: Dyslexia makes going to school stressful because nearly every class involves at least some reading. And chronic stress makes people more likely to develop depression. Low self-esteem: Trouble keeping up with schoolwork can wear down kids’ self-esteem. They may start to think they aren’t smart or that they need to hide who they are.Social isolation: Some struggling students would rather skip school or get sent to the principal than be embarrassed in front of their peers. This can lead to feeling isolated.Co-occurring conditions: Many people with dyslexia have co-occurring conditions, like anxiety or ADHD. These other conditions can raise the risk for depression. With the right support, young people with dyslexia and depression can manage these conditions and thrive. Keep reading to learn what depression looks like in kids — and find out how to help.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Real estate agent... the perfect job for her dyslexia
Gracen Gantt sold her first house as a real estate agent in college. Hear how learning differences and ADHD impacted how she chose her career.Gracen Gantt sold her first house as a real estate agent in college. But it was almost by accident. Because of her learning differences and ADHD, she couldn’t meet college math and foreign language requirements. So she switched her major to retail management and sales. Listen in. Then:Learn about business people with learning and thinking differences, like real estate mogul Barbara CorcoranWatch a video of Max Ash, a child entrepreneur with dyslexiaEpisode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Today, we’re talking to Gracen Gantt, a real estate agent and inspiring actor who has dyslexia, ADHD, and challenges with math.So, you're from the South, and now you live in Los Angeles. Just give us a little bit of an overview of your career journey, what you're hoping to achieve, and where you've landed now. Gracen: I am originally from Greenwood, South Carolina. It is an extremely small town. It is 40 minutes from an interstate, so definitely way off of the grid. And I currently live in Los Angeles. I absolutely love it. And so I moved out here for the acting portion, but I definitely still do the real estate to keep myself financially afloat. I went to the University of South Carolina, and I graduated with a real estate license and my first internship in real estate done.So, I had a little bit of experience already. And then I had already sold my first property before I even graduated college. So it was definitely, like, insane to see my career taking off so quickly. And so, yeah, now I am out here, real estate, acting, and just living my best life. Eleni: So, Gracen, you mentioned that you sold your first house when you were in college. I want to hear more about that. Gracen: So, I actually sold my first house to my great-aunt. I love her to death and I thank her so much for giving me the opportunity to make my first sale. It was really funny because the first day of my senior year of college, I went in and the professor was, "Oh, what's everyone done this summer?" and yada, yada, yada. And it was a professor that I already knew. And I was like, "Oh, you know, I have three houses under contract, and I've done this and that." And he's like, "What? You what?" And I said, "Yeah, I got my real estate license over the summer. I did an internship; I've done this and that." And while I was also maintaining a full schedule of just regular college classes.So, he's just, like, "What in the world?" And it was really cool to, like, have professors ask me about real estate. It's a lot of getting people in your pipeline. Like it's not necessarily, you know, you're going to make a sale or anything that day, but having these people know what you're doing and to be interested and want your business card, it's a big part of the business. So, to have professors ask me for a business card was very weird and cool at the same time. And also to be able to explain to one of my retailing professors why I thought that real estate belonged under retail and to have her agree with me was a very cool moment also.Eleni: That is really cool. It's, like, who's teaching who? I love that. So, it sounds like you were doing a lot, you were studying a degree and getting a license simultaneously. So do you want to talk a little bit about, firstly, what influenced you to decide to study retail management and what inspired you to also be getting your real estate certificate at the same time? Gracen: It was kind of a self-discovery process, "one door closes, four more open" type situation. I initially wanted to be a sports agent. I love football. So, the NFL was what I thought my calling was. I initially picked my school because it had an insanely good sport and entertainment management program. However, the math requirements for the program were a lot more than what I had already.And so that was a stretch. And, also, the foreign language requirements were a lot more. So the requirements for the degree I wanted were just not realistic for me. And it was just going to be a very, very, very big challenge. Really, initially I changed my major to retailing just to get in the same school as the program that I wanted to be in.So, initially, I had no interest whatsoever. And then it just kind of hit me: "OK. Everything in business is about sales, basically. This is a business degree. This might make more sense. So, I was actually studying retail management, which, if you think about it, real estate kind of still is retail because — it's retail, it's just the items are big purchases instead of T-shirts and things like that.Eleni: So I know you have learning differences, including dyslexia and ADHD. Do you want to talk a little bit about your learning differences? Gracen: So, I was not formally diagnosed with dyslexia until I was in college. So I went all through traditional schooling without any accommodations, and I always struggled, but I just never really thought that it was anything more than I just needed to try harder. Testing was always really hard for me. And it's something about multiple choice. I have no clue what it is, but I am one of those people that can justify anything. And I can tell you why all of the answers are correct. So, that was actually something one of my professors picked up on in college.He said, "You know, I notice you in class, you're a very active listener. You raise your hand all the time. You know this material. Why in the world did you make a 50 on the exam?" And so he picked up on — there was something just not connecting. He took the time to pull me aside and talk to me through it. And he suggested, you know, that I get tested or that I seek out accommodations because, he said, "Something just isn't right here; your testing isn't showing what you're capable of." I know this material. But when it came to multiple choice and having to know it and make those decisions, absolutely not. Obviously I was not good at testing, and I also knew that anything that involved extremely high levels of math were probably not going to be the easiest for me. So, I learned my strengths and my weaknesses very early in college, so I was able to cater what I was more focused on towards what I was good at. Eleni: So you found out you had dyslexia in college, but did you also struggle with learning as a kid? Gracen: I for the longest time could not read, and could not read at a level that I was supposed to. I remember being in the first grade, second grade — my mom would basically have to sit me down and sit on me to get me to try to read a book. And I would cry; I would do anything to get out of it because it was so difficult, and I never understood why it was so easy for everyone else. There was just a disconnect there. So I did the Hooked on Phonics, literally everything that was like a supplement back then I was trying, but it was still just brutal, like tears all the time. I just did not get it. And so finally, as I kept reading more and kept on it and would do things that helped me, like games and things. I still to this day on my phone have games that will help me keep brushing up on my spelling. And I just think there's little tricks like that and just keeping with stuff, and if the progress isn't exactly with your classmates, that's OK. Because I really think that we need to normalize everyone has a different level, and as long as you're moving forward and not backward, that's great. And I don't think that anyone should get discouraged. And that was something that it took a really long time for me to understand, that I didn't have to compare myself to my classmates, that they were on their own journey and I was on mine. Eleni: And you mentioned you were on a little bit of a journey of discovering what your strengths were and then trying to figure out what to do based on those strengths. Can you talk a little bit about how, you know, real estate and pursuing acting really works for your brain and your differences and why you think that might be a good fit for you?Gracen: So I grew up with my family in the business world. I've always loved business. And so I definitely wanted to pursue something in that realm. So for me, real estate would allow me to do the business aspect, but it also allowed me to be extremely social. It allowed me to talk to people all day long and also, as far as ADHD, I thought it was a great fit because you were never in the same office all day. Your surroundings were always changing, and no day was the same. I really don't like routines where every day is the same. And so I was interested every day because every day was different. That was really important to me to realize that maybe a traditional office job wasn't the best for me for those reasons. It was very easy for me to get sidetracked, to get bored. It just, it didn't stimulate me like real estate does. Eleni: And you mentioned you like variety, not really interesting for you to, like, sit at a desk all day, and that's partly because of your ADHD. How did you figure out that you needed a job with a little bit more movement or that perhaps sitting at a desk would be a challenge?Gracen: I have always wanted to have a job. Actually, I would make up businesses when I was younger and try to pawn them off on all my family members. I always wanted to be working. I wanted to have my own money. I wanted to just do my own thing. So I actually was a consultant for an off-campus student housing when I was 17. That was, like, my first adult job while I was off at college. That job was a lot of sitting at a desk because there wasn't much to really do. And so every day was very repetitive, and there wasn't much variety in that. That didn't interest me that much. So, I kind of figured out through process of elimination. I had that job. I also worked at a clothing store, which was a big mistake because that was one of my favorite clothing stores. And I promise you, I spent way more money than I ever made, just because I loved it. There would be different customers every shift and getting to talk to people and walking around the floor. It was a little bit repetitive, but at the same time it showed me variety. And I was like, “OK, I like this. Let's go more towards this.” And so it really was a process of elimination for me. Eleni: Yeah, definitely. And you know, that's partly because you have two jobs, but also just thinking about real estate itself and how that brings variety for you. So I'd love to hear more about what a typical day looks like. You know, are you primarily doing, like, rentals or selling or, like, a bit of both? Gracen: So, when I first started out, it was a lot of leasing. And then that turned into an internship that quickly evolved into purchasing, working with customers and sellers. So I did that for a while when I wasn't pursuing acting at all, but now that I am pursuing acting and need my days freed up a little bit more, I do more of what they call referral work. So someone will come to me and I will be able to send them to someone in their area, or they'll be able to go through me to be able to purchase, sell, lease, whatever they may need. And it's just been a great thing for me to be able to do with a lot of flexibility, because I'm not actively out there showing and things like that, but that change has also been kind of recent. So up until not too long ago, I was every day driving around and having signs in the back of my car all the time. And it was always on the go and I loved that, but I definitely feel like as far as me moving forward and having time and being able to pursue my dreams that the referral route is definitely better for me. Eleni: You also talked a little bit about being more of a verbal communicator than a written communicator. So I would love to hear, like, how you discovered that the verbal communication is more so your strength, and then what you do day to day when written communication challenge has come up and, you know, what you do to, like, cope with that and manage that day to day. Gracen: Spelling has always been my downfall. And I guess part of it is, like, me being self-conscious and not wanting to mess up too much when it comes to writing and that type of thing. So I've always loved to talk. I love communicating with people. I love being social. And so whenever it comes to writing and things like that, it just was a challenge, but I know that I have to do it, to a degree. So one of the things that I forced upon myself is keeping a calendar that's written. So that way I'm making sure, like, I'm still getting that written stuff in. And I also keep a checklist and a to-do list at all times because that way I'm able to make sure, you know, I have a moment I'm like, "Oh yeah, I need to do this today." Eleni: You know, you talked a little bit about some of your strengths and some of the challenges you have that might relate to ADHD or dyslexia. Before you started working and in this job in particular, did you have any idea how it might impact your work or when it would come up?Gracen: One thing, and this is actually a very embarrassing story, I was out showing houses and, you know, dyslexia, you get numbers confused sometimes. And so I'm always extremely careful of looking at something four times or more to make sure that I'm putting it in my GPS correctly. And there was a very big difference in the numbers I put in and where we were supposed to be and ended up on the absolute wrong side of town, and at someone's house that did not have a for sale sign in the yard. So I was like, "This is weird. Maybe it's just unlisted." Yeah, that house definitely wasn't for sale. And then I realized it way after the fact, and I was like, “Oh.” So that's definitely one of the ways that I knew would be a challenge that randomly would come up that would be a challenge, but I had to be extreme — and I'm still careful to this day when putting stuff in my GPS. I would much rather copy and paste on my phone than I would someone tell me over the phone, like, "OK, we're going to 3300 [street name]." I would much rather you text it to me and let me copy and paste it. That way I know we're on the same page, because if you trust me to put it in, there's no telling.Eleni: That's hilarious. So we chatted about some of your challenges with math in school. I imagine those challenges impacted you in real estate, too, right? The size of a room or something like that. Gracen: So as far as measuring rooms and square footage and that kind of thing, there is a tool you can purchase. It looks like a cat toy, if I'm being honest, and it will measure the room for you. It will say, like, from this point you're 8 feet from the wall and whatnot. So you could use that tool very easily. And that was something that was a game changer for me. And also looking at floor plans. That to me, was on the harder side. Eleni: Did you worry about getting those kinds of measurement and math questions wrong in your real estate exam? Gracen: So one way that — obviously you can get some things wrong on the test; you don't have to get a 100. And that was kind of a mentality that I had to realize growing up also is you're not going to get a 100 on everything, and it's OK to get some stuff wrong. But you have to also know your strengths and weaknesses and, like, where it's worth putting the effort kind of thing.So for me, I knew I was really good at papers and presentations. So for those I knew I had to do good because I knew I could do good. So when the measuring questions came up on the test, I really wasn't too fazed by it because I knew there were only a few of them. And as long as I did good on the definitions and the fair housing and that type of thing, that I could miss those and it would be OK. And that in real life, I could just use the little laser pointer thingy and all would be well and no one would know. So I'm kind of majorly telling on myself right now, but it's fine. Eleni: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really useful, like the tools out there exist for a reason, right? Gracen: Exactly. Eleni: So, you might as well utilize them when you can. And I know that for both of your jobs, you're not necessarily, like, on a salary. Do you think that working for commission, does it work well for you and the way that your brain works?Gracen: Yes. So that's how real estate works. You work for commission, and then acting jobs, you know, whenever you work, you get paid. I have to be very careful because it's not a traditional job. I don't know that I'm going to get a paycheck every week. I know so many horror stories of people getting paid and they're like, "Oh, this is great. You know, I'm making big money." Then they go out and blow all of it, and then they're in a pickle. So you have to be very careful. Working for commission for me is a really great system because it is rewarding. And I know if I do a good job, I'm going to be rewarded at the end, which is great. And that is a very good motivator for me of knowing, "OK, this is what I have to do." And it's very clear to see what you have to do in order to earn said paycheck. Whereas another job you aren't exactly told, oh, you're doing a good job; here's your paycheck. You don't get those same feelings. And I guess what you were saying, it goes back to that, I think. I see the end in sight and I know what I have to do to get there. Eleni: Can you relate that to ADHD in any way? Gracen: Probably, I haven't really ever thought about that, but I can definitely see where that can be a thing that can go together because I think that seeing an end in sight and knowing that's coming and knowing that it varies also is really good because obviously you sell a more expensive house, you're going to make more money. So knowing those kinds of things and, like, with every day being a different variable, it's very good for someone's brain who is highly stimulated. Eleni: So, one thing people with ADHD that I've interviewed say is that often there needs to be more of an immediate or obvious reward for them to do something. For some people, maybe money is a motivator. Other people, it might be forming relationships or being accountable to people. So that's why I was interested to hear if you moved in the direction of a commission-based job because that is what motivated you to perform. You know, rather than an ongoing salary where it isn't as clear what you're getting compensated for. Gracen: Exactly. Eleni: So, another thing that we talk about with people with ADHD, they often like thrive in chaos or uncertainty and, you know, like — Gracen: Oh my gosh, that's me.Eleni: Yeah, like really being able to like think on the spot and like work in the moment. I would love to hear, how does that show up in real estate? Do you have any horror stories or any, like, interesting things that have happened where you've had to think on your feet a little bit more? How do you think that potentially relates to your ADHD or dyslexia or in any way? Gracen: Definitely with the whole instant gratification and all that with your brain. I definitely think that kind of goes with the chaos and that goes with you wanting to be a problem solver and wanting to fix everything in the split of a second. And so I would say with real estate stuff that when you're out showing houses and things of that nature, that you have to be on the fly because your office isn't at your disposal sometimes. So you might be on the opposite side of town and you have to do this and that. And you have to be very resourceful.So, I have used my phone as a hotspot sitting in my car, hooked up to my laptop, trying to get a contract sent in, or a UPS Store, sending an email to the printer and just being very resourceful in that way. As far as client situations, I have gotten a call — this unfortunately was a family member of mine — she had fallen, and she ended up breaking her hip while looking at a house. Obviously, I was like, "Oh my gosh, like, I'm on the way. Let me help." But you just have to know anything's going to happen. And so that is one thing I will say that keeps me interested every day is because you do know anything can happen.Walking into every day and just expecting the unexpected definitely makes you want to do it every day, because you just want to know what's going to happen next. Eleni: Totally. Yeah, it's really interesting because we spoke to a teacher that has a similar description for what their day is like and why that works for their brains. So, it's just interesting to hear how two jobs that you wouldn't necessarily associate as similar can have these parallels. That parallel here is not knowing what you're walking into and that being really interesting and stimulating for the ADHD brain to not know what's going to come up and how you're going to respond to it.Gracen: And it's actually funny that you brought up teaching because in college that's something that I did also. I was a tutor. So I really loved working with kids with learning differences because I kind of wanted to give them hope and help them realize that they weren't alone, that there were people who have the same struggles that they did that were successful, and that the sky was the limit for them. And it was just figuring out where their strengths and weaknesses were. Eleni: That's great; I love that. I know that we've talked a little bit about some of the challenges that come up with ADHD and dyslexia, but it also sounds like you are coming from a place of confidence and you definitely are really, like, aware of what your strengths are. You know, one thing we talk about is like thriving not in spite of your difference but because of your difference. So I would love to hear, like, how did you build that confidence? Gracen: Being on a self-discovery journey in many ways like I have been, it's taken time, but I'm just at a point where I'm comfortable looking in the mirror every day and just saying, "This is me, and this is what I've been given, and I'm going to make the best of it." So whether it be body image, whether it be dyslexia, ADHD, or anything that I might not like about myself, I'm just at a point where I feel comfortable letting everyone know that this is who I am and I'm going to embrace it instead of run from it. Eleni: Do you think that you have landed the right fit for you, and if acting doesn't necessarily work out, do you think real estate is something that you will continue to pursue forever? Gracen: As far as the future, I definitely want to continue to evolve. I feel like I learn things about myself daily, as far as strengths, weaknesses, ways to do things, ways to get around things. And I definitely feel like every day I'm getting closer to my purpose. I do think that real estate is great because there are so many ways you can do real estate. You can be a landlord, you can do the leasing portion. You can just work with buyers. You can just work with sellers. I feel like it's always going to be of interest to me, and as I do grow in my career, you know, maybe there will be some specialties that I take on that I realize, oh, I'm really good at this. Or maybe there'll be some added things to my career because obviously I love to keep busy. So whether that be going back and maybe doing some teaching at some point, or maybe it's not acting, maybe I teach acting, maybe something like that. I just definitely feel like the world is an oyster and I'm just ready to see what this journey's like. And I think that every day, just keep working on the things that challenge me, and anything's possible. Eleni: Well, thanks so much for being here, Gracen.Gracen: Thank you so much for having me and for allowing me to tell this story, because I haven't really talked about this much before, but I'm so glad to be able to share my journey with everyone.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia in middle school: 4 signs you might see
It’s not uncommon to start noticing signs of dyslexia in middle school. Workloads increase, which makes it hard for kids to hide their trouble with reading. Here’s what dyslexia can look like in middle school.1. Reading very slowly Sounding out or decoding words is really hard with dyslexia. And this can slow down the reading process. Your child may take a very long time to finish homework that involves reading. At school, your child may escape to the bathroom to avoid reading out loud in class. (See more reasons kids might read slowly.)2. Trouble finding the right word to sayDyslexia can make it hard to find the right word or to pronounce it correctly. Your child may stammer and say “um” and other filler words a lot. At school, your child may use a word that sounds similar to the right word but has a different meaning (like saying “distinct” instead of “extinct”). 3. Struggling with writing assignments Dyslexia can affect spelling, which can make it hard for kids to proofread their own work. Your child may spell the same word differently in the same essay. Or your child may have trouble sharing ideas in an organized way and with the right spelling, grammar, and punctuation. 4. Struggling to fit in Dyslexia affects communication in lots of ways, including social skills. Your child may not pick up on body language or learn from social blunders. At school, your child may struggle to “fit in” or work in groups. Explore more signs of dyslexia at different ages. And find out what steps to take if you think your middle-schooler has dyslexia.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Advice from a career coach with ADHD and dyslexia
Alex Gilbert is a career coach with ADHD and dyslexia. After working in leadership development for years, she started her own coaching business. Alex Gilbert is a career coach and consultant with ADHD and dyslexia. She helps people with learning and thinking differences navigate their day-to-day work — and play to their strengths. After working in leadership development for years, she pursued her dream and started her own coaching business, Cape-Able Consulting.Because Alex was diagnosed at age 8, she had accommodations throughout school. During college, she realized that all of these supports would disappear when she graduated. So she started a mentorship program at her university to help those with learning and thinking differences prepare for “real” life. She’s been in love with coaching others ever since. Now, Alex helps others learn about how they work best, try out tools, and advocate for themselves. Listen to hear more about red flags in the workplace, and how to tell the difference between challenging and hard.Related resourcesCape-Able Consulting, Alex’s consulting firm32 examples of workplace accommodationsEpisode transcriptAlex: If you have a learning disability or you have ADHD, and you've looked up every article there ever was written on how you can manage your learning disability or ADHD in the workplace, and you've tried every one of them and they don't work for you, you think, "There's something wrong with me." And the truth is, there's nothing wrong with you. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. Alex Gilbert has ADHD and dyslexia. She's the CEO, founder, and coach at Capable Consulting. She works one-on-one with people with learning differences like her own to customize the right coping strategies for them. From creating a mentorship program for students with disabilities at her university while studying there to working in program and leadership development for over a decade, her experiences display her passion for disability inclusion. She has endless insight on choosing and creating the right working environment for you and advice based on her own lived experience. Thank you for being here, Alex. Alex: Thanks for having me. Eleni: So, you have ADHD and dyslexia and it's part of your business. You work with people with similar challenges. So, I thought a good starting point would just be to tell us about your business and who you typically work with. Alex: Sure. So, I started my business in 2021 after I had been laid off from my job due to COVID. And this is something that I have dreamed about doing since I was 16 years old, because I was really privileged to be diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD at 8 years old and had resources all the way through college. And when I was starting to apply to colleges, I had this resource room teacher who basically said to me, "You're not really going to amount to anything, because on paper you represent somebody with a lot of disabilities." And I kind of looked at her and said, "Are you being serious right now? Because I also represent a lot of other things that's also on paper. I'm president of this club on leadership in this group. That's also on paper. How do you not see my skills as something that's valuable or see me as someone worthy of your time?" And that kind of, that messaging really stuck with me through my whole college experience and my career. And so when I was laid off, I said, "You know what? It's time." I really wanted to find new ways to support people who are in this space, who could use that extra boost of confidence to know that they had value, to know that they had amazing, like skills and strengths, that if we just leaned into them and they had a little extra support, that they could do that. There's really very little resources out there for adults. That's my bread and butter, is working with adults who are in the workplace or struggling at home to manage it all on a day-to-day basis. Eleni: Yeah, and that's such a great synergy with what we're trying to achieve at "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" too, because there is definitely like a gap there. It's like we know that you don't grow out of a learning disability, so you know, why should resources end? Alex: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like apples and oranges. I was trying to explain this to one of my clients yesterday. I said, "Yes, I had resources, you know, in high school. What does extra time on a test look like in the workplace?" Like, how do you explain I need extra time. You don't even know how to have those conversations, let alone know what resources need to be used in these spaces. Jobs should be challenging and not hard. And when you are doing a job where every aspect of your job is hard, it leads you to feel burnt out, frustrated, maybe you even get fired from your job because it's really just not in your wheelhouse of things that you should be doing and you're not really leaning into those strengths. Challenging means you can take something that's really interesting. Like right now what I'm doing every day is I'm being challenged by new clients who have new situations, and every day is something exciting to me of how can we problem-solve together? I don't find it hard. I'm not sitting here doing, you know, math problems and Excel every moment of my day. Do I do that as a small business owner? Of course I do. But that's not the forefront of what I do. Eleni: Yeah, I love that. Would you say that your problem-solving skills and that strength comes directly from your ADHD and dyslexia? Do you think it's related? Alex: 100 percent. I've had to learn to adapt to a lot of situations constantly, which is what a lot of people with learning disabilities and ADHD and, you know, executive dysfunctioning and you name the disability — like insert here — you're constantly learning how to adapt and figure out how you can make this situation work for you. So, part of it was the skill set that I had to be able to problem-solve quickly. And part of it was the environment that I was constantly in to figure it out. But that said, those became my strengths. Eleni: You mentioned that you have a lot of different types of people coming to you. And you know, one of the things that you enjoy is that like every person is different. Are there certain types of people that you see more often or certain reasons that people are more likely to come to you? Alex:This is one of those things that I could tell you from the beginning of when I started my business, what I thought I was going to get is not at all what I got. But it's OK, because I'm learning and adapting and getting to know other people and other pain points for people. I thought when I would start my business that I was going to be talking to people who were similar to me in the sense that they had resources and it was kind of pulled out from under them, like the rug was pulled out from under them and they didn't know how to manage in the workplace. What I'm actually seeing now, I would say 95 percent of my clients are people who are recently diagnosed with some type of learning disability or ADHD, and they're kind of looking to me and saying, "OK, now I have this diagnosis, now what? What do I do? Where do I start? Because the diagnosis is in my hand, but that means nothing if I can't do anything differently." Eleni: Yeah, interesting. And what do you think is particularly unique about having a more recent adult diagnosis? And how do the challenges kind of present differently when that's the scenario?Alex: There is a tremendous amount of masking that has happened subconsciously, because you are living your life not knowing there's something wrong, but at the same time knowing there's something wrong and being frustrated that you can look around and see, "How did someone just do that in like 20 minutes when that just took me 2 hours?" That sits with you really deep. And that emotional aspect of it is really shameful. You know, you were constantly maybe called lazy or stupid, you know, again, in certain negative connotations that you can put in there not only externally, but what you're telling yourself because you don't know something is wrong. So, a lot of the times when I'm talking to people, it's trying to unpack all of these pieces of their life that is really overwhelming and kind of putting the pieces back together to say, "You know what, this isn't me. This was a disability that I didn't know I have. But how can we get to the root of what was challenging so that we can move forward and make it easier for us and erase a lot of that shame?"Eleni: Yeah, we've had a few ADHD coaches on the show, and it sounds like you focus more broadly on like learning and thinking differences, and it seems like a lot of those courses can apply to people with a variety of differences. Alex: Absolutely. Eleni: Do you change your coaching methods based on like the type of learning and thinking difference you're seeing? Alex: I mean, you can come to me and tell me these are your learning disabilities, or this is your ADHD diagnosis, and I kind of have that in the back of my head as we're trying to create structures and programs for the individuals. But I also want to give them a space to see their strength and their value. And a lot of the times when you are coming and getting a diagnosis, you're focused on the diagnosis itself and all the weaknesses. So, the actual diagnosis itself is less important to me. It's more that I'm creating something that's individualized for you. And this again comes from over a decade of program and leadership development. And I coach people on something called best principles versus best practices, because best practices assumes everyone can do the exact same thing and end up with the same results. So, if you have a learning disability or you have ADHD and you've looked up every article there ever was written on how you can manage your learning disability or ADHD in the workplace, and you've tried every one of them and they don't work for you, you think, "There's something wrong with me." And the truth is, there's nothing wrong with you. They're very generalized. Those programs can be wonderful for many people. But maybe one part of it works and not the other. So, let's dissect it. Let's figure out what part of that situation works so that we can apply it to you. Eleni: Yeah, that's great. And it makes a lot of sense, too. You mentioned a few times that you were lucky enough to be diagnosed very early, when you were 8, and you had all these resources throughout school and college and then you got to the workplace and you realized, "Oh, like what does it look like?" How did you cope then? How did you kind of figure out like what you needed as you entered the workplace? And then how do you now pass that knowledge on? Alex: While I was at Indiana University, I created a mentor retention program for students with disabilities to make sure that they graduate and they didn't fall behind. I had trained 50 different students on how to mentor other people, how to learn, how to advocate. I taught a hundred students on how to advocate for themselves in the classroom. So I thought, "I got this." I'm going to the workplace. I know exactly how to advocate for myself. I know how to teach other people how to advocate. I was not. And so, I was, I think I was really like hit in the face very hard because it's so different. And I couldn't label specifically why it was so hard for me to be in this job. But when I think about everything about my first job, I was in a small office with five people, and I was the first desk that you saw. Everyone who came to the office came to ask me a question because, you know, that's the first person they saw. I asked if I could have noise-canceling headphones and I was told no because it would look rude if I was the first person you saw and I was wearing headphones. And I was like, one, I didn't know that that was illegal. But, you know, I'm 22 years old, I don't know what that looks like. I was so anxious because I couldn't finish my work on time. And I would stay late and I would try and come in early. I remember my now husband, he was my boyfriend at the time, I remember saying to him, "I'm like, I'm getting all of these migraines. Like, what if there's something wrong with me?" I just like, wanted, I wanted answers. And when I thought about it, I was like, "Oh, I'm depressed. I'm depressed." And when I was talking earlier about what it was like to have all of these different careers, those were the moments where I thought I was being pulled further away from my career experience when really it was pulling me closer. Because if I can connect to that feeling that people are having, that overwhelm, that depressed feeling, that frustration, I couldn't do my job well. Eleni: Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that and being able to reflect back on that and really be able to take something away from it that, as you said, has now actually brought a lot of empathy to your current work. Alex: Totally. Eleni: I'm glad something good came out of it. Alex: Yes. Definitely. Eleni: Yeah. So, when you think back to those moments, are there any like tools or supports that you wish you had early in your care, or even with having like all of those advocacy skills? What was still missing for you? Alex: I would have really appreciated someone talking to me about what success looks like in the workplace, and what those accommodations could have looked like. Because it, had I been in that same job, I would have asked to have not physically been in that office situation that I was in. There were several offices upstairs. I would have asked if I could have been a part of that. I would have thought a lot harder on the fact that I was asking for noise-canceling headphones, because that was an accommodation that was legally my right to ask. I would have asked to possibly change my work hours and I would have come in maybe earlier to do my work and left earlier in the day, because the end of the day was when it got really even noisier. There were so many different pieces that I could have asked that might have been red flags that I didn't know. And the other part of it is knowing what kind of manager is going to help you succeed. And when I talk to people in the course about getting to know what their needs are, thinking about the professors that were the most accommodating, the most supportive. What about your experience with them, your communication style, worked for you? Eleni: Are there any like tangible tools that you recommend? Alex: I love Grammarly and Speechify, and I wish that I had known about that when I was actually in the workplace because that would have saved me a lot of grief. I had adaptive technology when I was in college, so when I had to read really long paragraphs, my books, my textbooks were read to me. Speechify does the same thing with your emails, with your internet browser. If you got something in person and you wanted to take a picture of it and it would still read it to you. I think that's a really great tool that I think should be available to everybody. Grammarly I think is similarly really important to have because people who have dyslexia or have ADHD, maybe you send emails impulsively. Is that the tone that you wanted to send? Did you miss like several words? Did you miss attaching something when you said you were going to attach something? Eleni: I love that. I thought a nice way to wrap up would be, you know, just to ask you, like, what was the number one message that you wanted to convey to our listeners? Alex: I often try and remind people of what they're capable of, and we have so many strengths and we have so much value to bring. And I want people to feel empowered by their skills and their strengths and really be able to prove people wrong. And that has always been my mantra kind of growing up of wanting to prove people wrong, that just because I was dyslexic or ADHD didn't mean anything, that I wasn't I wasn't going to accomplish my goals. Like just watch me. Eleni: I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of your amazing knowledge and for being on the show. Alex: Thank you for having me. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. The show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. We'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at U.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot org slash workplace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to help people who led and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!"is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Mathis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Lessons from a chief marketing officer with ADHD and dyslexia
Nathan Friedman is the co-president and chief marketing officer of Understood.org. And he has dyslexia and ADHD. Learn how he got into the C-suite. It’s the last interview for How’d You Get THAT Job?! For this special episode, our guest is Nathan Friedman, co-president and chief marketing officer at Understood.org. Nathan was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia as a child. Early in his career, he didn’t openly discuss his learning and thinking differences. But now he recognizes the value of being vulnerable and embracing them. Today, Nathan is helping shape the world so people with learning and thinking differences can thrive. Nathan went from a political science degree at Washington University in St. Louis to the world of marketing. He started as an assistant account executive at Ogilvy and at 27 became their youngest managing director. He went on to start his own company before joining Understood, where he oversees marketing and provides operational and strategic support. Listen to Nathan’s insights into the power of advocacy, finding relatable role models, and creating a supportive network. Related resourcesWhat is an inclusive workplace?What is self-advocacy?Nathan’s Adweek article: How learning to navigate dyslexia landed me in the C-suiteEpisode transcriptNathan: How do you build advocacy? It starts with people having others to look up to in this space. It's somebody that you can relate to. So, how do you find those everyday heroes, people that are inspirational to you and understand how they got there?Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.This will be our last episode with a guest before our final summary episode. I'll be chatting with Understood's co-president and chief of marketing Nathan Friedman. Nathan was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia as a child. He's since learned what coping skills work for him, how to self-advocate, and how to advocate for others. He started with a political science degree from Washington University in Saint Louis and then leaped into the world of marketing. Starting as an assistant account executive at Ogilvy, he worked his way up from there to be the youngest managing director when he was only 27. Nathan stayed Ogilvy for over 15 years before moving on to create his own company and then coming to Understood to be our CMO. He's passionate about our mission to shape the world so that those that learn and think differently can thrive. I'm so happy to have him on the show today. Welcome, Nathan.Nathan: Thank you for having me, Eleni, and honored to be your last guest on the penultimate episode.Eleni: So, why don't we start with who you are and what you do here at Understood.Nathan: Sure. Nathan Friedman, co-president and chief marketing officer of Understood. And my role really spans not only marketing but a lot of the operational and strategic support for the organization. So, it starts with brand and strategy all the way down to creative production. How do we engage and reach and deliver impact to audiences, both on platform and off?Eleni: So, taking a step back, rumor has it that you are a poli sci major. I did my research internally.Nathan: Is that a rumor or is that what you looked at on my resume?Eleni: Actually, I just asked around what things that I should know about you. So, what made you go down the marketing route? What was interesting to you about marketing, communications, advertising, whatever it was? What piqued your interest?Nathan: You know, it's an interesting journey that I had to get that first job. I, as you mentioned, was a political science major at WashU in St Louis. I wanted more of a liberal arts background, and I thought I was going to go into law or something of that nature. I did not come from a long line of lawyers and decided that was not the right path for me.Eleni: Do you think there was anything about your experience with dyslexia and ADHD that kind of shaped or influenced your decision to go down that path?Nathan: Back then, it was more about how do you get that first job. You know, whatever you need to pay the bills. I worked two jobs at first. I worked at a retail store, and I worked at a large goal agency because large goal agencies at that point didn't pay any money. So, in order for me to pay rent and go out and, which was going to be more important than just eating, you know, I had to work two jobs.Eleni: So, it sounds like you casted a wide net at the beginning. But then, was that first job in marketing or advertising?Nathan: Yes, it was in marketing communications. So, I really focused on that area at first because it was one of the more interesting areas at the time. And I think it was really about how do you get that first meeting with somebody and perseverance and then kind of just trial and error. I was picky about the type of areas I knew the first job would not necessarily be my last job, so, how do I get a job and then I can learn on that job and get transferable skills so I could do what I wanted to do?Little did I know that I would be in that first job for 17 years, and so, that was a huge growth opportunity clearly for me. And I think I leveraged the abilities that I had gleaned from my differences to my benefit within that role. But it didn't come until I was actually in the role that I could understand how they could be of importance.Eleni: It sounds like you weren't as intentional about where you wanted to start off, but once you got there, there were things about that role that made you stick around for a really long time. So, what was it that led to you kind of sticking with that, that made you realize that it was actually for you and worth pursuing and like continuing down that path?Nathan: So, there were a few reasons. Let's put a couple of things into context at that time, right? I think as I got that job, one year into it is when everything started to fall apart in the economy, followed by the terrible and tragic events of September 11th. So, there were no jobs for a while. So, I held on to the job that I could, and that was a very difficult time personally because you saw every single one of your friends get laid off and try and find new jobs.And a lot of people were out of work for a while, I think what it enabled me to do, though, is leverage my skill sets and innate curiosity to grow, raising my hand for new challenges, working around and through the opportunities I had to gain skills and knowledge and my abilities or superpowers to able to digest complex problems and sort them and in my own mind, to sort of get it out as quickly as I want to, was a benefit in a client-driven organization. I think my upbringing combined with my differences, allowed me to engage and build trust in people that were well above my tenure.Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about how you feel your upbringing influenced that?Nathan: Everybody's upbringing plays a role in where they are, what they do. I think, you know, my parents encouraged me to work at a young age, so it was always about, what do you want to do? How do you want to live your life? And so, you know, I got a first job at 15 at a hardware store, and I always worked. One could say it was an avoidance and one could say it was more of an opportunity for me to keep me busy. I needed multiple things. I couldn't focus on one thing or another.So, I had four jobs during the summer, three internships, or it was just a drive that I had. And I think that led me to have a variation and understanding of what different types of roles would be. So, I worked at a record store, and back when record stores were a thing. I worked at a hardware store being a cashier, I worked at Banana Republic, I worked at Sony Music. I thought I wanted to do music for a while, and then I sat around at 14 concerts in one week with earplugs in, and I'm like, "This is the worst thing ever for me." So, I decided that wasn't for me.So, you know, it's trial and error and then finding out what in listening to yourself and being like, "This actually doesn't excite me. This doesn't interest me." And that's why I've always encouraged people to try internships because then you actually get a little inside peek into what people are doing on a day-to-day basis, because what people say they do and what people actually do are two different things.Eleni: You mentioned that it wasn't until you were in that first job that you recognized how your differences and your upbringing could play into strengths for that role. Was there anything else that kind of stands out to you that were big like "aha" moments in terms of how your differences could be strengths in the agency world?Nathan: Yeah, I mean, and an agency world, I think back then is very different. So, I want to preface it with that, right? I still had a, I mean, ironically a typewriter on my desk as well as a computer. So, like there are differences in the way things work now than then. And there's a lot of differences in awareness of things like ADHD, dyslexia, etc. I think I knew my writing wasn't as strong as it could because I didn't quite grasp, or I didn't see structure and sentences and things like that. So, I had people review my writing a lot and that helped me get better.But also I explained, "Hey, I need help. I need someone to proof this for me because I'm not as strong in this area." Not everybody's as vulnerable as that. And especially in work environments where it's more competitive. I think that helped. I think I also had an innate ability to understand what people were saying when they really weren't saying it. So, they said they want bananas, and I'm like, "No, they actually want peaches. Like that's not what they want. They don't want bananas." And it's like, "You don't know what you're talking about." And we go in there and they'd be like, "Where are my peaches?" And I'd be like, "Told you!" So, I think those are a couple of examples.Eleni: That's interesting.Nathan: Yeah. And also, finding the right rhythm helped me because, you know, in agency environment, you're tracked by the hour. So, there's a lot of pressure to deliver things on time, which then leads to a whole bunch of complications. And when I found I did not have the deadlines, I found I would just like wander off in my mind and not necessarily be able to complete a task.Eleni: It's interesting because, you know, you always hear about agency environments being incredibly fast-paced and pressure. There's a lot of pressure to deliver. But for you, actually, the deadlines is what made it work. I've heard you mentioned like you have really high bandwidth, great output than like the average person. You're the youngest managing director at Ogilvy at 27, which is impressing that you've won a bunch of awards. Like, how did you become aware that you have a faster processing speed or don't think similarly to other people? And like, how were you able to adapt your working environment and your communication style and your differences to others?Nathan: It takes a while, and it took a while. It wasn't great off the bat. It's still a work in progress. I've always been able to process quickly and understand things differently and that my ability to do that in front of senior people earned me the trust that I knew more than my tenure, or I was able to do things differently. And I was lucky enough to have mentors who saw that and believed in me and gave me the opportunities.Eleni: So, you said that they were aware that you thought differently. Did they know why?Nathan: They're aware I was different.Eleni: Yeah.Nathan: And I think I talked about the outcomes of it, not the ADHD or dyslexia. I talked about, "Hey, I need X" or "I need some more time to think about this," or "Let me come back to you." Like, it wasn't like, "Hey, I have ADHD, let me do it." That wasn't the case. And again, a very different work environment. You could still smoke in offices. There was no generation above me to look up to whether it was LGBTQI, so there was no one really who had talked about it because you kept that stuff to yourself.Eleni: It's interesting to think about how visibility has made such a big difference. And yeah, as you said, having older mentors.Nathan: Well, we talk about that a lot here at Understood, right? With ADHD or dyslexia, whatever the difference is, the first step is awareness and issue awareness when you know about it and you can relate it to somebody, you know, that reduces stigma and then drives advocacy.Eleni: So, you mentioned that you would talk more about like the outcome of what your need was as opposed to naming the difference. I'm curious how things have changed for you now compared to then.Nathan: I think being at Understood gives you an opportunity to be more vulnerable with those things and those things being like having differences. In the past, I haven't had the space to do so because it was more of a yes or no environment in a lot of different companies. I truly believe that if you have a difference or no matter who you are, you need to find a job that suits you and then work to be the best you can in that role.I think I need to be more aware of myself and self-awareness of, "OK, I've already answered the question that you're asking me in two seconds in my mind, but you're going to continue to go on for three minutes. And I and I just like I'm lost, and I have no idea what you're saying anymore." Like, that's where I have to catch myself. And so, a lot of it was more around self-awareness and I think understanding that people do have differences, and then me adjusting my style to the individual has been another important element.And nothing's perfect. I'm not perfect. I'm far from perfect. And I think I'm lucky enough to have direct reports and the team that give me direct feedback that I can incorporate into how I work with them.Eleni: How do you lead by example on your team? Like in terms of appreciating different working styles, accommodating for different working styles, whether officially or not, like in the way that you mentioned, where it's talking more about like outcome than like specific diagnosis.Nathan: So, I think that goes back to understanding what motivates people and how people work and having that conversation directly. I think it's all grounded in what the role is and what the role needs to do. Shared expectations. And maybe this is a unique point of view, but it's important not to use your learning difference as a crutch or an excuse, because for me that invalidates the actual importance of having a difference. So, this has not happened, it's just an example, somebody is like, "Well, I can't do that because I've ADHD," that's just to me seems like, "Well, if you can't do part of your job because you have ADHD, why are you in that job? Let's talk about what supports you need."So around this day I can't do that, the conversation would be "Hey, can I talk about how I can get this done? Because I have a difference." And I want to see people thrive and advance and work. But nor do they have to lean in to figure out what your strengths are, what accommodations you need, or even what assistive technology or anything. I've shifted people's work schedules, we changed people's hours, we've moved people's desks, we've given people technology, we've given a whole bunch of things that aren't necessarily technically accommodations, and some of them are, but some are really easy and, you know, they need to work in a brighter area near you, whatever it is.Eleni: Yeah.Nathan: You know, and I think that's....Eleni: It's like being creative.Nathan: It's being creative about it, but it's also having the person have the ability to say, "This is what I need to get the job done."Eleni: What would you say to individuals that are struggling to find like the right place to work for them given their differences and you know, how they might kind of discover and also leverage their unique strengths and skills to be successful?Nathan: There's a few things people can do in order to find the right environment for them. One is understanding what it is, what environment are they looking for, and then doing research. Research, both looking maybe there's some lists about most inclusive employers or talking with people who potentially work at some of the places that they're considering. It's really hard because a lot of times what you see is not what you get.And so, you know, how do you feel comfortable if you see other people more comfortable talking about that? Generally, it means that there's a more accepting and more belonging effort in the culture. Look at their, do they have a DEI&B program? Do they have initiatives regarding groups and inclusive environments? Those are telltale signs of people who are putting that in the forefront of the business and making sure that the people feel like they belong.Eleni: I've heard you talk about how, like your differences have shaped your leadership and decision-making approach and have helped you succeed as a leader and also in your role as a co-president and Understood. Could you give some specific examples of skills or strategies that you've developed specifically around leadership that you can relate back to your differences?Nathan: Sure. So, I think, you know, carving out time, very distilled, quiet time for me, I carve out an hour every day. I kind of have an idea of what I want to focus on, and I just kind of let myself go within that space. How I structure the meetings, what I put in the afternoon versus the morning is also another ability for me to structure and oriented the day that is more beneficial to me and my personal style. And then making sure that there's enough time to digest materials beforehand.Eleni: I'm curious to hear what you have to say to leaders that have differences themselves and you know, how they can kind of leverage their positions to further the goals around like awareness and advocacy.Nathan: I think what you're really asking is like, how do you build advocacy? And it starts with people having others to look up to in the space. It's somebody that you can relate to. So, how do you find those everyday heroes and everyday people that are inspirational to you and understand how they got there? And I think that also relates to your own personal growth and organization, knowing what your strengths and opportunities are. How do you make sure that you have people around you that can do some of the work that you're not great at? Whether it's subject matter or skill, that is another thing to realize is it's not just about you, but it's like, how do you form part of a team to get the work done?I think, you know, I've never done anything traditional in my life. I think it's important to show that there are people who have different backgrounds, different skills. I mean, I have two beautiful kids with a lesbian couple that is not traditional, right? And so, talking about that has opened the door to other people asking about that. So, if I opened the door to people talking about it, they can come up to me and talk about my experience as well. And from there they can drive what will help them in the working world.Eleni: I know we talked a little bit about intersectionality. Like, is there anything else that you'd like to talk about from your experience as someone who is again, neurodiverse, how that's kind of fed into your experience? Nathan: Yeah, it's fascinating. I think I've become more aware of this now than I have been before. It never really factored in in the past, and I didn't even think about it in that construct until recently. And I think there's a lot of different struggles and differences between having a learning thinking difference and being LGBTQI+. But I think the similarities are around coming out and disclosure is a coming out and people don't realize that it can be traumatic for people if it's not handled correctly.And it just starts with that driving issue awareness. Being gay 15, 20 years ago was a lot different than it is today. I am aware that people who do have ADHD or dyslexia in way more severe cases that I do, struggle in different ways. And so, it's important to realize that not everything is the same. If you have an invisible disability, some people can do things and not other people with the same disability can or cannot do. So, it's incredibly complex, it's incredibly personal, and there's a lot more that we all can do as individuals, family members, friends, co-workers to help people.Eleni: I think this was a great conversation. Thank you.Nathan: Thank you, Eleni, for having me on your podcast, and congratulations. I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show, or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. We'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to U.org/workplace. That's the letter U, dot org slash workplace.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to help people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Mathis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thank you for listening.
Dyslexia testing results: What they mean for instruction and supports
Making sense of dyslexia testing results can be tough. If your child has trouble with reading and has had a full evaluation, you may wonder how to interpret the scores on tests that look at key reading skills.The evaluation report will show an overall score for reading. That score doesn’t show the complete picture, however, because it’s based on a group of subtests that look at different skills involved in reading.Your child might have an overall score that’s in the average range for that age group, for instance. But one or two of the subtest scores might be low-average.When the overall score is in the average range, but one subtest score is much below the others, that’s sometimes referred to as a “relative weakness.” Seeing those subtest scores can be helpful in knowing where your child needs some help.This chart shows what each reading skill entails, and how the school may be able to support your child.Evaluation reports can be dense and full of terms you may not know. Be sure to ask the evaluation team to clarify or explain things in the report. And keep asking until you fully understand each part of the test setup and results.What’s nextLearn more about requesting an evaluation for your child. Explore why your child’s testing results may vary. And read one mother’s story of the long road to getting a diagnosis for her son’s learning differences.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!From rebellion to biomedical research: Working in a lab with ADHD and dyslexia
Jacquelyn Spathies faced hardships growing up with ADHD and dyslexia. One teacher saw her potential, and now Jacquelyn works in a federal research lab. Growing up with ADHD and dyslexia, Jacquelyn Spathies didn’t picture herself one day working on a doctorate in biomedical studies. Teachers told her she wasn’t trying hard enough and discouraged her from dreaming big. Kids bullied her about her school supports. Like lots of kids with dyslexia, she felt like an outsider, and she found acceptance in a rebellious crowd. Then Jacquelyn went to community college, where she found encouragement from the right teacher. She discovered her love for research and science. Now Jacquelyn works in a federal lab, where she researches topics from coronavirus to eczema. Tune in to hear Jacquelyn talk about self-advocacy in the workplace, and how “othering” it can be to grow up with a learning difference.Related resourcesVideo: Being a scientist with dyslexia Work advocacy 101: Asking your boss for what you need to thriveVideo: A Harvard graduate on growing up with dyslexiaEpisode transcriptJacquelyn: I think in college, I just kind of suppressed it and was like, I'm fine, I can do this. I'm passing my tests just fine. And then when I graduated and I started my job, my work actually offered a class on like diversity and inclusion. And one of the things they talked about was learning differences. And it was actually in that class that I realized, oh my gosh, like, that's me.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.When the pandemic first hit, my next guest was working in a federal lab, helping other scientists learn more about the virus spreading across the globe. Jacquelyn Spathies didn't grow up dreaming of a career as a scientist in a white lab coat. In fact, as a teen with ADHD and dyslexia, she was rebellious and didn't always feel confident in school. It wasn't until college that she found her calling in research and biology. That passion has led her to research topics from coronavirus to eczema. She's now on her way to receive a doctorate in biomedical studies from Vanderbilt University. Welcome to the show, Jacquelyn.Jacquelyn: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: So let's start from the very beginning. What was it like, you know, growing up with ADHD and dyslexia? How did you feel about it?Jacquelyn: As far back as I can remember — right? — which is when I'm in elementary school and, as any mother is very concerned for their kids and wants them to have equal opportunities as their peers, my mom, you know, was very concerned and wanted to make sure I got the treatment or the diagnosis that I needed. And so growing up, she definitely sent me to certain classes and made sure I had my IEP and medication for ADHD and things like that, and just like assisted time on tests and whatnot and so forth. And so that was kind of like me and my sister were both raised that way. In high school, I kind of goofed around and didn't really focus as much. But once I was in college, that's when I started to really take ownership over my work and kind of found that study habits that worked for me, and just communicating with my professors and letting them know. One of the nice things about going to community college was that I had a small classroom size, so I could have that one-on-one kind of intimacy with my professors to just let them know like, "Hey, I'll probably be the last one taking this exam," like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're normally very understanding and they'll work with you because again, they can in that kind of setting. And so that was kind of how I entered college. It wasn't really until then that I started to develop more of an interest in school and STEM specifically.Eleni: The reason I asked how you felt about it is in our research we talk to, you know, a lot of kids that feel like really different at school, and they don't necessarily understand why. And it sounds like you got a lot of support. But, you know, we often hear from people that they still feel really like alone in their experience. And they look for, you know, a community to belong to and like feel normal and things like that. So even though you were getting that support, were you out about it? Like, did you talk about it? Did you feel any shame around it or like were you proud of like, you know, thinking differently? And how did that kind of show up for you?Jacquelyn: I wish I took pride in it, but I definitely didn't. I think especially when you're younger, you don't really think about it and you just feel embarrassed. Like you're automatically the "other" because you have to get up and you have to leave the classroom, right? And the teachers like, OK, everyone who you know, you know who you are. Go ahead, go take the test. And so we all get up and everyone kind of knows. I remember one time being at the local gas station and I was like buying gum, and I was like, I have $5 and I can buy this many packs of gum. I was like doing the math. And these kids, these boys who I went to school with saw me, and they were like, "How do you know how much to buy?" Like, "You can't do math," like making fun of me because they knew I was, you know, like getting my tests read to me and things like that. So again, like, oh, like they notice when I get up and walk away and that's, that's bullying, right? Like, that's proof. And, and so of course, I remember those little moments and yeah, it is embarrassing.Eleni: I really appreciate you sharing that because, you know, we often hear that being bullied or, you know, feeling "othered" or different and feeling rejected like kind of builds upon itself. And, you know, people end up rejecting school or whatever other system they feel contributes to that otherness. You talked about how you kind of goofed off in high school. Do you think that there was a link there?Jacquelyn: Yeah, I kind of have an interesting story for that, actually. So it was around the time I was applying to graduate school, which was this past October. And there was a lot going on just in my life in general, right? Trying to balance work and applying to school and just, you know, social life and relationships. There was a lot going on, and I had to go through a government clearance for my job. And I ended up getting the phone call for the government clearance like around that time. And they found some stuff on my record that like I didn't report because to be completely honest, I didn't remember and thought it was important to report. So anyway, now I'm going through and I'm having to like relive these, like, you know, these mistakes and these rebellious, this rebellious stage I had in my youth. And he's asking me questions like, why did you do this? Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, this is not what I should be going through. Because now I'm thinking about this part in my life and oh, you know, I'm a terrible — I'm not going to be a doctor, like blah, blah, blah. I'm not worth it. So of course it kind of brings me down. And I mean, it was it was a lot. It was really hard. I thought I was going to get like fired from my job, like, this is going to ruin my career.And I went home and I just started researching ADHD and dyslexia, and kind of trying to see like how it had affected me. And I came across some blog posts. People are talking about how like they kind of associate with delinquents because at least there they're accepted. And I'm reading all of these things and I'm thinking, oh my God, that was me. That was me. I can definitely relate to a lot of that because it's true. I was very rebellious, right? The bar was set really low. I felt like I couldn't accomplish much. I didn't receive that motivation, I guess, or at least that's how I viewed it.And so, you know, looking at the rebellious kids, it was like, OK, well, at least I fit in here. They accept me. They're kind of the outcasts, right? And just kind of like realizing that and associating it with, oh, my gosh, like, it's not my fault. I have accomplished so much and I've kind of overcome that and reflecting and journaling and thinking about these things. And I got the government clearance — surprise! I didn't get fired from my job. It was fine. But of course I was worried, and that was what kind of got me spiraling down that path. But it ended up leading to my ability to forgive myself. You know, I've apologized to my parents because I definitely gave them a run for their money growing up. But it really made me realize, like, OK, like I'm not alone, I'm not the only one. And that I have really grown from it and kind of come out on top. And that's not who I am anymore. And I'm proud to say that, you know, if I can do it, I think anyone can, you know?Eleni: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting to think about that impact, as you said, of like feeling othered, feeling different, being bullied. And then, you know, like everybody is looking for like friends and a community and people they can connect with. So like sometimes it's not, you know, necessarily on like positive terms, right? Like it's just, you know, we just like especially as teens.Jacquelyn: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think for me, it was like, you know, those parent-teacher conferences where you meet with your parents and the teacher is like, "Oh yeah, Jacquelyn's, you know, she's a good student, but maybe if she just tried a little harder." Or, you know, things like that, it was, it was never very, like, motivating.Eleni: Yeah, I can totally see why it's not motivating if, you know, at the parent-teacher conferences saying, oh like "If only she tried harder," and you're already thinking that like I'm trying so hard I'm actually trying more. We often hear like people feel like they're trying harder for less of a result, which is like really tough. You said that, you know, it wasn't really until you got to college that you started to show some interest in STEM. You know, one thing we hear is sometimes it really only takes like one mentor or one champion to, like, make a big difference, to provide either, like aspiration or encouragement or confidence. Do you want to talk about what that moment was for you and how that influenced your path?Jacquelyn: Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely also believe that because again, I think being othered and kind of carrying that like burden of shame is a huge kind of burden to carry. And it's true, I think the one mentor who kind of sees potential in you is really all it takes. And I definitely can remember my Intro to Biology professor at community college was like, you know, the one person who I really wanted to make proud. Like I would, you know, go to his office hours and just eat lunch and we would just talk, right? Like he would motivate me. And he was so impressed by some of the things I would say. And so I wanted to get an A just to impress him, you know what I mean? And I ended up really falling in love with biology. And, you know, I still keep in contact with him to this day. And again, community college means when I go home, I get to see him. So I kind of visit him every so often. And he's still a huge motivator in my life and I give a lot of thanks to him. And it is kind of crazy because that was really all it took, right? You know, my mom, my dad, didn't matter if they wanted it. It mattered if I put in the effort and wanted it. And it was, you know, the right time for me to meet him, you know, the right person, the right circumstances. I was in the right mindset, and I think it really kind of worked out well.Eleni: Yeah. Talk to us a little bit more about like how you went from that first like intro biology class at community college to, you know, where you are now.Jacquelyn: I knew I wanted to do science. I'm not quite sure why. I was just like, science is exciting. It's interesting. That's what I want to do. So I was taking a bunch of science classes, and that's when I met my biology professor and that's when I decided, OK, this is what I'm going to do. And then I determined, you know, I'm thinking, OK, do I want to be a nurse? Do I want to be like a doctor? You're kind of surrounded by a bunch of people in scrubs and and you're thinking more clinical stuff. And then I realized that I don't really want to work with patients. I think I want to do, like, lab work, more like behind the scenes kind of stuff. And I remember telling him that, like, I think I want to do research. And he was like, "If you really want to do research, you have to get your PhD." Looking back, it really was like that moment from there on, every class I took, every job I took was to kind of beef up my resume, so that way I could apply and get into PhD school.And so from there, I then went away to university. I went to a local state school in Illinois called Eastern Illinois University. I was able to do research in a professor's lab in neurobiology. And so I gained some lab experience. And then I then graduated in December 2019. And so lockdown kind of started. And again, I just graduated with this degree that was very applicable to kind of what was going on. And so I was thinking, OK, well, how can I use my talent and my degree to kind of aid in this global pandemic? And then I moved out to D.C. a couple of months later and ended up doing research on COVID-19, and so it was an epidemiology study. But I've been here for about two years now, and I really do love kind of research and where I'm at and all the hands-on experience that I've been gaining from there.Eleni: I was actually going to ask you what attracted you to science, but you said you're not really sure. Like was there something that, you know, steered you more towards like the lab and research work?Jacquelyn: I mean, there's a couple of aspects to it. Number one, I just think the mental stimulation. I guess the questions, right, the unknown questions and the ability to be curious. I think that's the big one. I like working with my hands, right? Like I get to, you know, do experiments and mix liquids and run analysis and do things. So I'm not sitting at a desk all day, right? There's data analysis stuff that you do, but there's also what's called wet lab stuff. So you're working with patient samples or you're doing cell cultures. So you get to work with your hands, which I think is really good for me. It's not a desk job. It's not mundane, and it's also challenging, right? It's mentally stimulating. So I kind of like that challenge. And the fact that I get to work with my hands I think is really good for me.Eleni: On this show, this idea of working with your hands really comes up a lot. And I wonder if you've thought about how that might relate to your ADHD or dyslexia, and if you could talk about that.Jacquelyn: The first thing that comes to mind is the challenges that are presented, because with research and with specific experiments, you know, following those steps, if you think about like a recipe, right, if we're baking a cake, following each step and making sure you know what comes next is really important. So if you make a mistake, if you zone out for a second, you know, you have to be very much so focused on that experiment if it's going on right now. And so I think there can definitely be some challenges that require like for me, one way to overcome that is to really like double-check my work, you know, look at it, you know, and double-check and make sure, OK, this is the right concentration. This is what I need to do. Because God forbid I add it and then it's the wrong concentration and I have to start all over. So there's definitely an aspect of that that I've had to kind of realize in myself and adjust in my work — and not only just me, but to let the people I'm working with know like, hey, can you double-check my numbers, right? Like, have someone else look it over. You know, have that communication with your co-workers. And then once I figure it out, right, which really doesn't take too long — it's true. I think that keeps me engaged. And I agree that with my ADHD, wanting to always kind of be up and moving and active is stimulating. And I need that in my day-to-day life. Like I need, you know, hands-on kind of stimulation in order to be satisfied in my day-to-day.Eleni: So when you were talking about having to follow steps of an experiment as though they are steps in a recipe, like I love that analogy. And I think for people that are not scientists, that's like a really straightforward way of thinking about it. Are you trying to say that like perhaps one of the challenges is because either because of your ADHD or your dyslexia, you might miss a step or misinterpret a step? I just wanted to clarify that's what you meant.Jacquelyn: Yeah. Yeah, I would say that like it's a very complicated process sometimes. So one small change can make a big difference. And so really making sure that I take note of everything that I do and that it follows exactly, you know, what I did the first time is really important. And then the payoff to that is when you actually see those results like science in action, it's very satisfying, right? Like when you get the results you're looking for and the experiment works in the end, it's like, oh my, you know, it's that great, you know, light bulb moment or just kind of, what's the word? Like the gratification to see, like, wow, science really does work. It's cool, like, 'cause we can't see — normally the recipes we're working on are on like a molecular scale. So I can't see the molecules or the proteins, but by the end, if I get, you know, like a fluorescent kind of signal or a positive result, I'm like, oh my gosh, it worked. Like, look, there's the protein, finally! Like, you know, so it's really cool to kind of see the evidence in the science in action.Eleni: Totally. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier in the conversation, you know, one of the things that you were concerned about as you became an adult was that if you talked about your differences, that you might be judged or people might think that you don't know what you're doing or, you know, whatever it might be. And you said now, like, you know, you try and communicate or like get people to double-check your work and things like that. How else do you advocate for yourself? Or how else do you think about, well — I guess how else have you overcome that fear that you might be judged?Jacquelyn: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question, because it took me a while to even realize that that was a difference or something that I had to deal with that other people didn't. Because I think in college, I just kind of like suppressed it and was like, I'm fine, I can do this. I'm equal, you know, I'm passing my tests just fine. And then when I graduated and I started my job, my work actually offered a class on like diversity and inclusion. And one of the things they talked about was learning differences. And it was actually in that class that I realized, oh, my gosh, like, that's me. You know, like this is actually — like this is something that people struggle with or something that I struggle with that people don't. Like oh my gosh. You know, I've never thought about it in that way before. Like an invisible disparity, right? People don't know, but it's something that I have to deal with.And then that was when because, yeah, that was kind of when I started noticing those little differences maybe in my day-to-day that other people don't have to kind of struggle with as much or deal with as much as I do. And that's when I started kind of accepting it and kind of owning it, right? And I think the biggest thing was just communicating it with my co-workers. I mean, maybe not like your boss directly, but the person training you or the people you're surrounded with on your day-to-day, like just letting them know, "Hey, I might zone out and have you repeat something." Or like, "Hey, you know, I might need to double-check my work" or blah blah blah, like making sure they know. Because I guess my fear is that I'll make a mistake and then they won't trust me, right? Like, oh no, we can't have her do the experiment. She's going to mess it up. It's like, no, I know what I'm doing. You just have to kind of work with me here. Or like, "Hey, can you repeat yourself? I totally zoned out, you know, I want to make sure I know what you're talking about." And so kind of letting them know why made me feel comfortable in asking them those questions. Because I knew they knew why I was asking.Eleni: The fact that your workplace offered that training is pretty amazing. I'm actually working on a project at the moment, speaking to workplaces and a bunch of organizations. Think about DEI, but disability and like differences often like neurodiversity is often left out of the conversations. That's really amazing that you were given that training. And, you know, it's really common for us to hear that people feel really like validated in their experience and they hear that like others are experiencing something similar.And what's really interesting is, you know, you talked about you kind of like pushed it aside for a really long time and like repressed it and ignored it. What that does for a lot of people is it means that you can't necessarily work on that self-awareness of how it impacts you both in terms of strengths and challenges and being able to like own some of the challenges and ask for support where you need, but also really zone in on some of the strengths that come from difference too. So I'm glad that you finally got there, you know, even if it took a little bit longer and that you're like owning it now. That's really great.I know you talked a lot about, you know, how satisfying it is when you run an experiment and it works. What happens when it doesn't work?Jacquelyn: OK. So that is probably more than 50% of research is failing. I will tell you that right now, that is something that everyone struggles with, is you will make mistakes and that is not easy. It's embarrassing to go to your boss and say, I'm so sorry, I have to redo this. You know, you feel bad because maybe you wasted money, you wasted resources. But it's all a learning experience. Like, you make those mistakes now, and like, everyone has to make those mistakes. Like the top researchers who you admire, guess what? They had to go through that, too. And so that is something anyone and everyone in research has to accept and realize at some point. And it's really, really hard to do, but it's just a part of it. If you don't learn from them, then there's no growth. But the mistakes are inevitable. You have to just learn from them and move on.Eleni: I think it's so important to normalize failure. And, you know, a lot of people that are not in the science world like really think about the fact that science is built on failure, right? Like, you know, it's a constant learning, constant iteration, constant experimentation. And, you know, just like knowing that that's just part of the process, right?Jacquelyn: Yeah. Yeah. That is a big part of it. Technically, the main project that I'm working on now started because I wanted to optimize my protocol, and the experiments I was doing to try and optimize it kind of led me down this rabbit hole that then resulted in the project I'm doing now. And I never ended up optimizing that protocol. It never ended up working. But the experiments and data I gained from that gave me an idea, which then resulted in the project I have now.Eleni: That's so cool.Jacquelyn: Yeah, a lot of it is just curiosity-driven. Sometimes you don't really know what you're looking for, but it might kind of elucidate itself in time.Eleni: Definitely. Thank you very much for being here.Jacquelyn: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter "U," as in Understood dot O R G slash that job. Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you.As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world the difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music is written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
Dyslexia fact sheet
What is dyslexia? This one-page fact sheet provides essential information for beginners. Click on the download link above to read the fact sheet online, or print it out and give it to friends, family, teachers, or co-workers.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!ADHD, invisible disabilities, and making the digital world accessible
Albert Kim is passionate about digital accessibility because of his ADHD, dyslexia, and invisible disabilities. He wants you to join him. Albert Kim first got interested in digital accessibility because of his ADHD, dyslexia, and invisible disabilities. He wanted to make websites and apps usable for everyone, including himself. After all, he uses a screen reader and text-to-speech to read text online. But when Albert started to explore a career in digital accessibility, friends discouraged him. They said it wasn’t a good career path. Albert decided to try anyway. Within a few years, demand for his expertise exploded. People who had discouraged him before were now asking about jobs. In this episode, Albert shares how to start a career in digital accessibility, and why he wants others with learning differences to join the field. He also talks about the challenges of being a first-generation college student and immigrant from South Korea. Related resourcesConnect with Albert on LinkedIn or Twitter to learn more about digital accessibility.Read about our commitment to accessibility.Check out free assistive technology tools online. Episode transcriptAlbert: So I started talking to different people around me who are working in tech industry, but then most people were discouraging. Most people actually didn't even know about this field. Most people didn't really recommend it. But growing up in such a hardship raised by a single mom and everything, yeah, it is challenging. I get it. But I went through a lot of challenges already.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.If you have a learning or thinking difference or a disability, you might've heard of the word "accessibility." This means making things as usable as possible by as many people as possible. Well, our next guest, Albert Kim, is an accessibility expert. He also has ADHD, dyslexia, and other invisible disabilities, which is part of the reason he feels like he found his calling.Hi, Albert, welcome to the show.Albert: Yeah, thank you for having me.Eleni: So, I thought a nice place to start would be just like, kind of explain it, what it means to be an accessibility expert. I'm on the product team at Understood. And so I work really closely with the experience and design team, and I've actually worked on a few accessibility projects, so I'm pretty familiar. But for our listeners, I thought it might be valuable for you to explain what it might mean to be an accessibility expert and just describe it to them as simple as possible.Albert: Basically, the work that I'm doing, accessibility specialist role, it actually focuses on digital accessibility. So just like buildings, there's a law to make it accessible for people with disabilities or anyone to be able to access for wheelchair users and things like that. Digital space, same thing for digital products, whether that is like an app or a website, it needs to be accessible for everyone. So I basically help companies make these digital products accessible to everyone. And it's not just people with disabilities, because disability has three different categories, like permanent, temporary, situational. For example, my mother, as she gets older, her vision is lower, and so her text size has to be bigger, and things like that. So it's a really interdisciplinary subject. It involves human/computer interaction, design, computer science, and psychology. So yeah, it's a very fascinating subject area.Eleni: I think one thing that we talk about UX is really I'm trying to understand the state of the person using the technology, whether that's like an emotional state or a physical state, and designing with that in mind.Albert: Yeah, of course, mm-hm.Eleni: I would love to hear why accessibility is so important to you and why you chose to dedicate your career to accessibility.Albert: For me, accessibility is really important because I deeply empathize with the struggles. I myself have disabilities. I was born with some disabilities and also attained some growing up. And so for me, the representation and advocacy for people with disabilities is really important.Growing up, I was born in a South Korean family. And South Korea has a lot of stigma toward disability, especially invisible disabilities, like mental health and things like that. And my parents have never gone to any school. They never got any formal education. So, for me, growing up, I've never really seeked out for any medical help or any diagnosis for my disabilities. And even when I became adult and tried to seek for medical help by myself, my parents were against it. Because they just simply didn't want their child having a diagnosis of a certain disability and things like that.So having gone through such a struggle, even within my family, in my environment, in my society, wanting to be accepted as who I am, I deeply empathize with such struggle for anyone, honestly, not just people with disabilities. When I came across this subject, this field, for me, it was like a calling. It was like a life mission. And especially, even within digital accessibility, these invisible disabilities that cognitive and learning disabilities, as well as mental health, have not been traditionally covered much. Which it was very absurd to me because if not accessibility area talks about these issues, then where else can we talk about it, right?Eleni: Definitely.Albert: So, kind of felt like a calling, and I feel like I had to jump in and really bring more representation of people with disabilities, similar disabilities that I have, in this field.Eleni: That's definitely something that I've heard in my research too. When we talk more broadly about diversity and inclusion, often disability is left out. And then even within the disability spaces, invisible disabilities are left out of that conversation too. So there's, like, a number of layers. And as you said, learning disabilities in particular are often, you know, not considered. I would love to hear some examples of where you've noticed perhaps digital platforms not being as accessible as they could be for learning disabilities and, like, a common mistake or gap that you see on these platforms.Albert: I think one of the challenges I have is the reading comprehension difficulty due to my dyslexia. And because of that, I use screen readers a lot. And a lot of websites, actually majority of websites, are inaccessible. And one of the most common thing is these screen readers are assistive technology that requires specific technical compatibility.But many websites are not designed and developed with these assistive technologies in mind. So for example, if I'm trying to use a screen reader to read the content, sometimes it might skip, like there is no, for example, alt text for images, or there is no coherent orders, and it's just really not the pleasant experience.So those are one of the biggest challenges. And also in terms of, from the mental health aspect, a lot of contents that might trigger mental health traumas, there is no trigger warning or the contents might be just dangerous subjects, right? Dangerous things. And being able to write contents in plain language rather than overcomplicating things. And a lot of it is design content. Those are the biggest parts that I find a lot of issues.Eleni: And I know you mentioned that you didn't necessarily see some of your diagnoses considered, so I thought it might be helpful for the audience, if you feel comfortable, to share the learning differences that you have.Albert: Yeah, thank you for asking, because I know there's a lot of stigma toward disabilities, and I know many times people tend to not to disclose. And I was advised not to disclose if I don't feel comfortable to, but I try to disclose as much information as possible, because I want to break that stigma a lot. And I have cognitive and learning disabilities, such as ADHD, dyslexia, OCD. I also have anxiety and depression, as well as PTSD. So, it's quite a lot, but these are the diagnoses that I got and been on medication for them. And I'm really fortunate to be able to find a good medical team who was able to help me out in this journey.Eleni: Yeah. I'm happy to hear that for you too. And thank you for being vulnerable and sharing all of those diagnoses. It is really important sometimes to be more open because that's setting an example for other people that might feel a little bit more shame, and it really reduces stigma around it, just talking about it.So you mentioned that when you discovered the accessibility space, you felt like it was truly your calling. I want to hear more about how you discovered it, you know, set you on that path.Albert: Actually, to share that story, I do need to share a little bit about my background because I think it's all connected.I was born in a family with domestic violence. So my mother, my sister, and I all escaped from my father. So, I was mostly raised by a single mom. I'm a first-generation college student, and we couldn't afford the cost. So I had to take a pause in my college. And at that point, I was trying to find out what can I do in terms of my career?And while I was going to college, I actually tried three different startups. I thought business success to be my fastest route to become financially independent and free so that I can support my family. So I tried different startups.And then I went to South Korean military because of the compulsory military service. And in the military, I served as a telecommunications specialist. And that was, like, the first time I kind of interacted with these more of a computer and technical things. And then after I came out, I was doing more of a digital consultant work. But then because of my startup experience previously, I got recruited by my friend and I was brought in as a business development manager. And while I was working for this tech startup, I realized, oh, like, in order for me to really get into this field, I do really need to understand more about computer science and coding and web development. So I started doing a UCLA Extension certificate in web development applications programming.And while I was studying that subject, I came across digital accessibility. At first, I was very fascinated by the subject because I never, ever imagined there is an existing field for this specific digital accessibility. And when I came across, I felt like, like, this is super cool. To me, it was kind of like looking at robots or AI, so I automatically got drawn to it and I started looking up, oh, so what are the digital accessibility guidelines for people with invisible disabilities or people like me? And I couldn't really find much resources. Oh, that's strange. Maybe I did a poor research. So I started reaching out to different people on LinkedIn and also attending different events and conferences to see maybe if I attend these professional events, I'll be able to hear more about that subject. But I still couldn't find much information. And then I realized, oh, wow, so most of the digital accessibility conversations were focused on physical disabilities, blind, deaf, and motor. But invisible disabilities have not been covered much. So, that's when I felt like, oh, it's my calling. And I need to really get into this field and try to bring more representation.Eleni: Yeah. And that's something that we also hear a lot, where people identify, like, an opportunity or a gap and for people that are more risk-averse, it's like, oh, but like that's uncharted territory. Whereas for others, it's like, well, that's actually really exciting. You can be the pioneer in that space if no one is doing it. And as you said, there's definitely a need for it. Like, you identified a personal need for it. So, there must be others feeling the same way, right?Albert: First, I didn't know how to start. So I started talking to different people around me who are working in tech industry. But then most people were giving me advice that was discouraging. Then most people actually didn't even know about this field existing. And second, most people didn't really recommend it. Like, it's an unclear career path, and the companies that have accessibility teams are only the large companies. So, I heard a lot of discouragement. But growing up in such a hardship, raised by a single mom and everything, yeah, it is challenging. I get it. But I went through a lot of challenges already, but I still overcame. So why not try? And what an interesting life because after I got into this field, shortly after, the demand has soared extremely a lot. So compared to two years ago, there was an article talking about the job increase in this field was 70 percent in one year.And because of the COVID and how the digital transformation is occurring, and a lot of government services and public services are also transitioning to digital, there is this soaring demand for making websites and apps accessible for everyone so that public services are available for everyone. So now the people who were discouraged at me before are now coming to me and saying —Eleni: Congratulating you.Albert: Congratulating me and also asking for help. They want to learn more about it.Eleni: Yeah. And I think that takes a lot of courage to block out societal pressure and other people's opinions. And just really look inward in terms of what you want and being guided by that.Albert: And I think that neurodiverse people are actually very strong at that because we've overcome that kind of stigma, always resisting.Eleni: Definitely. Yeah. We talk about that a lot. You know, if you already feel othered in whatever way, then it's actually a lot easier to go against the status quo and go against the grain because you already are. And I think it's really important to point out some of the strengths and positivity around neurodiversity.Albert: Yeah, thank you. I really hope that more and more neurodiverse people pursue this field because there's a huge demand for neurodiversity representation in this field. And it's a really, really fascinating subject that I think a lot of people will find very meaningful because you get all the benefits of working in the tech industry, like flexible location. And most companies are nowadays remote and flexible hours. But at the same time, you do work that actually benefits people with disabilities and humanity. So, it just gives me a lot of life fulfillment and meaning in my work and everything.Eleni: Oh, that's so beautiful to hear. You know, you mentioned flexibility in the tech industry and how perhaps working in tech could be a little bit more inclusive or more accessible. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that and why that's important to you?Albert: If I were to work at a traditional company where the business practice and work environment is very traditional, it would be very challenging. Because of my disability, sometimes I need to have flexible work hours. Also being able to work remotely at my home where I feel comfortable gives me a lot of room for accommodating my disabilities. And another thing is I feel like the tech industry, the culture and the community itself, is very supportive. It's all about, like, supporting each other, open-source projects, and we're all trying to help each other, so that is a huge plus for people like me, who is a foreigner, in a foreign country, without a college degree. And then being a first-generation college student with a lack of guidance, it means so much to have that kind of support, especially digital accessibility community. Because a lot of people in digital accessibility resonate and empathize with people with disabilities and actually having disability is a huge, huge strength, because you have a deep insight and understanding of users with disabilities. And that is very precious and highly appreciated skill and experience in this field. So I think that was one of the biggest part was the people in this field were just very welcoming, loving, and supportive, and that is really hard to find in other fields, I feel like.Eleni: And you also mentioned not finishing college and some of the challenges that you had from a financial perspective. But I would love to hear perhaps some other challenges that might've been related to, like, your learning and thinking differences or your other mental health challenges.Albert: A lot of challenges are so subtle and embedded in my life that I don't even know it exists. For example, I have a hard time with estimating time. So my doctor was telling me because of my low executive functioning in my brain, if I'm estimating a time for a certain work or certain task, I can pretty much assume that it is going to be wrong. And another thing is balancing my focus. It's very hard to balance my focus.For example, I have ADHD and I get distracted to a lot of environmental stimuli. So when I'm working, I turn off a lot of other noises in my room and try to be able to focus so that I don't get distracted. But at the same time, I have OCD as well. So for me, there's no middle ground. And it's, like, either I'm very distracted or I'm very, very, very focused, maybe too focused, to the point that I'm not prioritizing certain tasks and moving forward. It's kind of like a bicycle when you're riding a bicycle on a downhill, it's hard to stop for me. It's very hard to stop when I'm going down already into the path of ADHD. So learning coping mechanism to help me balance that has been very challenging.Also another thing is, because of my anxiety, new environment, where it's my first-time experience, for example, let's say that I'm trying to go to medical school. I've never been to medical school before. Then there's lots of new information out there that I don't know. To me, that is a huge uncertainty, and that overwhelms me a lot. So it gives me anxiety and it triggers my OCD a lot. So I get obsessed about like reading things and learning things because I'm so anxious that I feel like if I miss one word, I might miss a huge chunk of information.So it took me a long time to really learn the coping mechanism that it's OK to fail. It's OK to try. And whether or not you fail, you will learn something, and it'll be good for you. So, just there was constant struggle but definitely I think as first step was getting medical help, and it helped me tremendously.Eleni: That was super interesting to hear how your different diagnoses interact and how they show up for you, and how one can actually then trigger the other. And since you started talking about advice, I thought that would be a really good segue to ask you about other advice you have for young people with thinking and learning differences, particularly those that might be interested in getting into the accessibility space.Albert: The main thing that I really want to convey to people who are going through a similar struggle as I am is that you are not alone. I'm here, there are ton of other friends around me who have similar struggles. We are here. And you are heard, you are accepted, you are loved. So I think finding community is really powerful.I started this community called Accessibility NextGen, because I wanted to build a supportive community for anyone who wants to learn about digital accessibility, to be able to help each other and make more friends, literally, like, that was the main reason why. Because when I was trying to get into this field, it was so challenging, and there are people, a ton of people, who are more than happy to help you.I and tons of my friends want to help people with disabilities and especially neurodiversity to get into this field. So please let me, let us, help you by reaching out to us, or connecting with us, or just shooting a DM anytime. The name of the community is Accessibility NextGen, and it's on Meetup.Also, you can find me on LinkedIn, Albert Kim, or my Twitter handle is djkalbert, but the Slack channel is actually invitation-only, so once you actually message me, I can send the invitation and then go from there.Eleni: Thank you so much for joining, Albert. And thank you for all of the work that you do in the accessibility space.Albert: Well, thank you so much, Eleni, for having me today. And I hope that my story will at least help someone feel that they are not alone. So, thank you.Eleni: I hope so too.This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" was created by Andrew Lee and is produced by Gretchen Vierstra and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Video: Dyslexia and the fear of reading
We all have a natural fight-or-flight response that kicks in when fear strikes. Our heart speeds up. Our breathing speeds up. Sometimes, we just want to run.But what happens when that fear is of reading? For people with dyslexia, that fear factor can kick in when they’re simply handed a piece of paper and asked to read.Hear from Jerry Schultz, PhD, on how brain chemistry can cause this reaction. Plus, learn how you can work with your child’s teacher to help your child get more confident about reading.
The Opportunity GapIntroducing “The Opportunity Gap”
Introducing The Opportunity Gap, a podcast for families of kids of color with learning and thinking differences, like dyslexia, ADHD, and more.Introducing The Opportunity Gap, a new podcast for families about kids of color with learning and thinking differences, like dyslexia, ADHD, and more. Host Julian Saavedra is a Black parent and assistant principal in an urban public school, and host Marissa Wallace is a special education teacher with a multiracial child. Listen as Julian and Marissa explore issues of privilege, race, and identity — and talk about ways parents can advocate for their kids. Episode transcriptJulian: Mariss! You ready to do this?Marissa: Let's do this. Julian: Welcome to "The Opportunity Gap," a podcast for families about kids of color who learn and think differently.Yasmeen: There is sort of this perception, especially amongst younger people of color, that like ADHD is a white boy problem, point blank.Julian: White boy problem?Andrew: What I found out when I did this research was that Simone Biles isn't just the most accomplished female gymnast in history. She's an advocate for people with ADHD.Julian: We explore issues of privilege, race, and identity.Marissa: A lot of our Black and brown students — they're not going to get the services. They're going to get ignored and not get the proper education. Or they're going to be pushed outside of the classroom or outside of the school because their needs aren't getting met. Because there's literally no one there to meet their needs. Julian: And we talk about ways you can advocate for your child.Marissa: And so there's the legal way to answer that question, right? And then there's like the parent way. Julian: Let's go with the parent way. Julian: I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: And I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian: We're both teachers.Marissa: And we're both parents of kids of color. So this is personal to us.Julian: Listen and subscribe to "The Opportunity Gap" on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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