128 results for: "executive functioning"

Do Cell Phone Signals Cause Executive Functioning Issues?

ADHD and marriage (Rachel and Jon’s story)

Jon Gardea has ADHD, and his wife Rachel doesn’t. Hear how ADHD impacts their marriage, and how leaving the Mormon church prompted Jon’s ADHD discovery. Jon Gardea ADHD... wife Rachel doesn’t. helped spot signs, though, including hobby graveyard. Jon got diagnosed, clear ADHD impacting marriage years. explanation created positive mindset shift relationship, bringing even closer. Rachel hosts YouTube channel called “Post-Mormon Parenting.” episode, Jon also talk leaving Mormon church contributed Jon’s ADHD discovery. Listen heartfelt honest discussion get behind-the-scenes look ADHD marriage.Related resourcesPost-Mormon Parenting YouTube ChannelHow explain relationship ADHD executive functioning“Setting aside” ADHD better parent husbandEpisode transcript Rachel: I'd like really got TikTok, started showing things ADHD more, like, oh gosh, oh, wait second. There's symptoms this, manifestations this, idea before. oh, goodness, Jon. Like describes well. Specifically, whoever watching talking hobbies would start different hobbies would get super them, enjoy super-short period time. done.Laura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha!," podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood. someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host.I'm today Jon Rachel Gardea. Jon ADHD. Rachel not. Jon Rachel, welcome show. Thank much here.Rachel: Thank you. Yeah, we're really happy here.Laura: First, need say first time show interviewing two people time. could interesting certainly first time life interviewing married couple. could also interesting. Could introduce people listening know they're listening to?Rachel: Jon hit hand tell go first. I'm Rachel, I'm non-ADHD partner relationship. grew Connecticut, yay, East Coast. live Arizona. met college we've married 14 years three kids, ages 9, 7, 5. I'm stay-at-home mom. spare time like YouTube videos fun stuff like that. Whenever little bit spare time, — know little kids too. know —Jon: spare time.Laura: There's spare time. So, Jon, you?Jon: actually grew Phoenix, grew Mormon. born conservative religious family ended going regular steps Mormon Church. boy, young man, went mission 19 21. went Taiwan. one point speak Chinese fluently. I'm rusty now. ended BYU, Brigham Young University Utah, 20s. met mutual friend singers, choir together ended sort hitting there. ended getting married I'm nurse. nurse 13 years now, really enjoy that.Laura: raised nurse. tons respect nurse.Jon: mom's nurse too.Laura: Yay, nurses. Yes. great. Never let get school sick.Jon: Show thermometer.Laura: Show proof. Right, right. .Jon: fever 101 going go school.Laura: Exactly.Jon: learned fiddle mercury thermometer.Laura: way.Jon: would either put light bulb make go up. learned shake right get right sweet zone wouldn't suspicious go doctor, could skip school.Laura: may ask sing me, way, point, spontaneously erupt song, I'm OK too.Jon: OK. OK.Laura: So, Jon, diagnosed ADHD?Jon: last year.Laura: "aha" moment? led seek evaluation ADHD?Jon: spurred research, so, don't know exactly found, want talk first?Rachel: Sure, yes. current 9-year-old, maybe like 7 8 time. messaging pediatrician saying, "I think might ADHD, maybe, possibly? It's really affecting grades anything, sure makes life little bit difficult home. get evaluated?" pediatrician like, well, doesn't really something big deal. seems fine, like contact year, know, we'll discuss it's affecting grades whatever. kind left alone, back mind, I'm still looking things thinking like, wow, he's classic — whatever know ADHD. He's got hyperactivity attention deficit. kept trying learn it. think watching TikTok. I'd really gotten TikTok.You know say TikTok knows shows things didn't even know TikTok knew first. It's little bit eerie, started showing things ADHD more. like, oh gosh, oh, wait second. There's symptoms this, manifestations this, idea before. oh, goodness, Jon. Like describes well. Specifically whoever watching talking hobbies would start different hobbies would get super them. Like really, really them. would research heck spend hours hours buy accoutrements stuff, enjoy super-short period time. done. We're done. New hobby. Next! realized potentially least ADHD thing, thought, man, Jon bipolar? like exactly going on?Jon: goes manic phases obsessed something.Rachel: Yeah. he'll depressed. happened, too, time lot of, would say like mental turmoil, lot like anguish, lot self-reflection us doing. Because, Jon said, raised Mormon Church recently stopped believing that. us kind crisis meaning lives. Jon particular really hard time mental health time. seeing psychiatrists therapists. brought him, hey, maybe let's talk psychiatrist see ADHD.Laura: react that, Jon?Jon: like, OK, that's basically, uh, maybe, don't know. Anything's possible point. mentioned showed me — think showed TikTok. guy talking obsessions. He's like, new hobby. I'm going hobby. I've bought things hobby. goes room it's complete, like podcasting, audio recording setup, it's like suspended mike boom everything pop filter everything. he's like, nah, ah, I'm done hobby. interest hobby. And, like, oh God, that's totally me.Like summer, like, going learn violin. bought new violin none rent. started going lessons really nice conservatory.Rachel: 'Cause can't anything halfway, partially, mediocre. Like get best stuff. like best lesson.Jon: That's right.Laura: you're going start hobby, start right.Jon: That's right. Exactly.Laura: Don't finish it. you're going start right. Yeah.Jon: Start right. Well, don't intentions quitting. I've got, like, dreams able play, like, Mendelssohn things head, know? I'm going able play amazing violin piece. I'm like watching videos Hilary Hahn violinists, I'm like, inspired. I'm going lessons. suck, course. don't apply myself, course. I'm distracted whatnot. lasts four half, five months, about, would say, long —Rachel: That's longest you've ever spent hobby.Jon: — last. think mentioned maybe like two months stopped going lessons maybe month after. like, oh. started considering different hobbies I've done. Like I've done guitar, I've done ukulele, I've done violin, I've done necklace making beadwork.Laura: ever consider hip-hop dancing? moment time like, I'm going become hip-hop — people listening can't see me, I'm like gangly uncoordinated, would really bad. dream. dream. hip-hop dancer.Jon: never ambitious. impressed.Laura: didn't make past even like thinking it. close, yeah.Jon: Yeah. No, definitely understand. Like, started obsessing K-Pop, probably longest obsession.Rachel: Oh, that's true.Jon: it's become like part life now.Laura: drawing hobbies? feel like body? like impulsiveness regular interest levels getting distracted?

Traveling Alone: How to Tell If Teens With Executive Functioning Issues Are Ready

How can you tell if teens with executive functioning issues are ready to travel on their own? Kids who struggle with flexible thinking, impulse control, organization, and time management may have some challenges. But they can often handle the demands of travel—especially with some extra planning.Use this list to help think through if your teen is ready, and consider ways to prepare teens for travel:Has your teen been on an airplane before? It’s probably not a good idea for teens to fly solo if it’s their first time ever on a plane.Can your teen keep track of belongings? A travel clutch or pouch to hold a passport and tickets can help traveling teens stay organized.Can your teen stay calm and come up with solutions if something goes wrong? Talk through potential scenarios, like what to do if a phone or passport are lost.Can your teen do OK with time management? For instance, will your child leave enough time to get to the train station or airport? Help your teen get in the habit of setting a phone alarm with reminders of where to be and at what time.Can your teen stick to a budget? Work with your child to come up with a system. For example, maybe your teen will use a debit card for food and other necessities and will use cash for fun extras.Can your teen adapt to new circumstances or ways of doing things? As a traveler, it’s important to be flexible. Talk about how people in different states or countries may have different rules, customs, and expectations.Can your teen keep track of vital details, like the destination address or the name of the point person for the trip? Make sure this information is stored in your teen’s phone. Print out copies to put in your teen’s backpack and suitcase, too.If going abroad, can your teen remember differences in how things work, like using country codes when making phone calls? Suggest going through a travel book or blogs and taking notes on key points. Store the information in a smartphone notes app or in a small notebook.Can your teen handle foreign money? Can your child do the mental math to figure out what a can of soda costs in another currency? Together, look up exchange rates before the trip. A smartphone calculator or a foreign exchange app can be useful.Can your teen adapt to differences in everyday living? How will your child react if familiar foods taste different or if there’s no cell service in certain locations? Talk about these issues ahead of time. If food is an issue, see if your teen can bring certain items from home.Will your teen think to call, text, or email you if there’s a major problem? Remind your teen that you’re ready to help no matter what time it is and no matter where your teen is located.Explore strategies to help teens with money management. You may also be interested in how young adults can struggle with executive function, and ways to help.

Executive function and ADHD shame in women (Katy’s story)

Women & ADHD podcast host Katy Weber felt like she was in suspended animation during the pandemic. Then she learned about executive function. Katy Weber’s ADHD symptoms took center stage pandemic. stuck “waiting mode” experiencing “time blindness.” learned executive function dug signs ADHD women. pandemic, stereotypes surround ADHD never felt relatable Katy. diagnosed, started talking women ADHD found community. Now, sees ADHD shows children, she’s getting support need — earlier got it. Katy ADHD advocate coach host Women & ADHD podcast. Katy Laura podcast, it’s Katy’s turn hot seat!Related resourcesLaura Women & ADHD: Laura Key: Anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD “aha” momentsADHD girls: Overlooked?How explain relationship ADHD executive function challenges7 tips talking child’s teacher ADHDEpisode transcriptKaty: really struggling complaining therapist felt like suspended animation time. ideas didn't ability felt like literally sitting couch phone hand, knowing next time going interrupted. like first time ever even heard term executive functioning.Laura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha!," podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood. someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host.Laura: I'm today Katy Weber. Katy ADHD advocating coach, founder Women & ADHD, LLC, host "Women & ADHD" podcast. Oh, gosh, start, Katy? start? Well, we've before. Katy got chat show — fabulous, recommend everybody check — I'm excited Katy today answer questions story "aha" moment. So, welcome, Katy.Katy: Yeah, thanks me. I'm excited get chance sit chat again.Laura: like start guest asking: diagnosed ADHD happening life point?Katy: Yes. So, like call pandemic diagnosis. officially diagnosed November 2020, think kind self-diagnosis journey really started fairly soon lockdown really struggling complaining therapist felt like suspended animation time. kids home, husband home couldn't get anything done like waiting next catastrophe happen around remote learning Wi-Fi Zoom like things. next thing know, kids needed eat again. felt like suddenly this, like many mothers time, like full-time butler chef housekeeper, yet time, know, heightened anxiety, felt like doomscrolling time couldn't go anywhere. difficult time many us.When describing therapist, really kind zeroed inability anything right kind waiting mode felt like unstructured time ability really feel like accomplishing anything. therapist, diagnosed ADHD years ago middle schooler diagnosed, she'd gently kind suggesting look years, dismissive like, "I don't know you're talking about." stereotypes hyperactive little boy, like, kind offended. like, "Do really feel like immature, petulant child?" think was...Laura: I'm sorry.Katy: ...right? Like, totally offended. like, "What talk... ADHD?" didn't relate level really didn't take time think connection making conversations. lockdown, like, "Dude, like, really look looks like, especially manifests women." that's remember like taken online ADHD test, generic one adults, things kind related to. lot DSM questions like, "Do feel like you're run motor?" like, "I don't know even means, guess? Don't all? Like, even that?" so, scored kind moderately didn't really think much it.And took one specifically women ADDitude Magazine, one written Sari Solden, like wasn't talking fidget spinners need move, right? Like talking core shame around clutter and, know, questions like, "Do hate people show unannounced?" know, really sort got lot social emotional elements ADHD never occurred me. that's hit realization — many us — like, "Oh, OK, I, right, see is." that's, kind like, yeah, spring summer 2020.Laura: ADHD symptoms think struggling pandemic? Walk typical day like maybe point symptoms experienced throughout day, time.Katy: Oh, yeah. mean, think mean, we... it's often called like waiting mode. feel like hear called even think it's element time blindness feel like can't start something know there's appointment looming, doctor's appointment 1 p.m., can't anything leading that. didn't realize focus issue anxiety issue. sort something never thought much about. think going time early pandemic lockdown internalized hyperactivity like, "Oh goodness, time, myself, right?" people like baking bread. And, know, see projects, people like home projects time everybody things. impulse, right? Like ideas. like, "This great time invest business start new one."And like, know, ideas didn't ability felt like literally sitting couch phone hand, knowing next time going interrupted. like first time ever even heard term executive functioning. Like, never heard term diagnosed realizing executive functioning plays sort decision-making kind knowing next step is. So, felt like divide thoughts ideas percolating mind, also feeling like ending day, accomplished virtually nothing.Laura: feel slightly relieved I'm person struggles "Oh, something's happen like hour. So, can't focus anything else moment." happened yesterday. daughter going playdate waiting friend show up. so, hour friend showed up, started get super anxious, things wanted do. kind like creepily waiting doorway needed to. struggling much, waiting event start could start next event. I've never heard anyone else explain like that. So, thank you.Katy: Well, remember also, too, another wonderful thing ADHD is, time blindness, like moment realization sitting down, pick kids school — pick three — around 2 o'clock, kind started waiting mode sitting around parsing phone like, "I don't want start anything I'm going leave hour." literally 5 minutes leave, coat one shoe saw dog food kitchen floor something, started sweeping mopping kitchen floor 5 minutes leave decided done right then. So, ended late pick kids.And even though literally done nothing hour, 5 minutes like, thought head, something could easily 5 minutes. think that's another thing lot us struggle with, like, long task take us? so, moments I'll sit around hour nothing, we'll late, thought would take 5 minutes completely reorganize kitchen cabinets.Laura: feel like better understanding personally run motor phrase means?Katy: mean, yes no. guess still don't. mean, use example still don't really understand means. think lot sometimes comes idea many us, we're diagnosed adulthood, don't realize everybody thinks way operates way. Right. so, term, feel like you're run motor? like, who? Everybody feels way. Like, felt like was, like, akin asking breathe oxygen. Like, it's like, yeah, right? heart beats.And so, think,

Now I Get What It’s Like to Have Executive Functioning Issues

For nearly 20 years, learning and thinking differences have been the focus of my professional and personal life. As a teacher and an early intervention specialist, I felt fairly prepared to be a parent of children with learning and thinking differences.And for the most part, I have been prepared. I’m a fierce and organized advocate and feel I’ve been empathetic to the struggles my boys face.Honestly, because of my background, when I was asked to try Through Your Child’s Eyes, I wasn’t expecting to see anything new.I was wrong. And it’s been hard to write about it because I feel so humbled.It only took three-and-a-half minutes of simulated executive functioning issues to bring me to tears of frustration. It still makes me panicky to think about it.The task seemed simple enough—just move a “basket” and catch falling shapes on the computer screen. Except the directions kept changing and the shapes kept falling, and no matter what I tried they didn’t slow down and I couldn’t do everything at the same time. I failed at the task repeatedly. I felt helpless.I was completely unprepared for the emotional impact of this experience. Is that how my children feel every day? Those few moments of looking through the lens my children wear all the time made me realize I haven’t really understood their struggles as well as I thought.I wasn’t sure what to do with that realization. Should I feel bad about not getting it before? Or should I feel grateful that I get it now? The funny thing about parenting is that when you find yourself asking contradictory questions like that, more often than not, there isn’t one right answer.I do feel bad that I didn’t get it before. I also feel grateful that I understand a little more now.Looking through my children’s eyes was a hard thing to do, but I’m so glad I did it. I think it will help me get past feeling guilty for my boys’ issues. And believe it or not, I’m going to try the simulation again. After all, there’s so much more I need to understand.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.

Career advice from an ADHD coach, and how he got there

Brendan Mahan has ADHD, and a drive to help others. Putting these together led him to become an ADHD coach. Hear his story and advice.Brendan Mahan ADHD — drive help others navigate ADHD journey. young age, Brendan knew wanted help people. college major options left little room that, forged path. Now, he’s ADHD coach podcast host. parenting marriage workplace, Brendan’s got covered. he’s remind it’s OK ADHD.On week’s episode How’d Get Job?!, Brendan talks stack different skills perfect combo works best you. Find consolidating hobbies good move people ADHD. get Brendan’s tips finding right career, self-advocate, employer red flags look for.Related resourcesVideo: Thriving work ADHD40+ career examples people learn think differentlyI’m finally letting go shame ADHD learning disabilitiesEpisode transcriptBrendan: lot do, sort subtextually, I'm working with, folks, give people permission ADHD. spend lot time saying, "That's OK, you're allowed."Eleni: Understood Podcast Network, "How'd Get Job?!," podcast explores unique often unexpected career paths people learning thinking differences. name Eleni Matheou, I'm user researcher Understood. means spend lot time thinking find jobs love reflect learn are. I'll host.Do ever feel like need coach help get work life really day? know sometimes do. next guest made career coaching, specifically ADHD coaching. Brendan Mahan ADHD executive functioning coach host ADHD Essentials podcast. helps people manage challenges ADHD life. I'm going talk Brendan built career ADHD coach. I'm also going ask biggest challenges people learning thinking differences workplace tackle them. Welcome show, Brendan.Brendan: Thank you.Eleni: would love start beginning. Like, firstly, mean coach, general?Brendan: So, coaching is, it's counseling, right? Like, it's thing. Coaching focused skill-building goal setting goal achieving. comes ADHD coaching, there's absolutely psycho-educational stuff happens around like "What ADHD?" "How work?" "Why make mistakes make?" say ADHD. So, I'm working client, oftentimes I've similar struggles they're facing. that's part makes good client come we'll working together I'm like, "Oh, I've made mistake. know navigate one," right? might perfect solution them, least beginnings idea. meet client, I'm like super expert guy knows everything come bring problems stuff, right? know tendencies are, know struggles much better do. lot trying ask good questions, trying help people get clear goals values really want don't want, sorts things.Eleni: Yeah. going ask, typical scenario someone might come you?Brendan: adult clients work typically going kind transition. might looking job. might starting new job struggling job they're risk losing don't clean challenges. folks come they're struggling marriage trying understand better. work parents kids struggling ADHD parents ADHD they're trying navigate kids effectively.Eleni: Yeah, sounds super helpful. So, know already talked ADHD and, know, that's one reasons that, know, you're really great you're able empathize experience like bring own, personal story that. know preparing interview, told became person needed growing up. So, I'm curious, like, coaching way person? Like, person needed growing up? guess.Brendan: needed someone understood worked really someone understood ADHD could normalize me. people kind didn't exist. ADHD back "That kid problem," right? "That kid can't sit still attacking children running hallways screaming something." wasn't me. space cadet. tuned hyperactivity, thoughts. wasn't coming physically much. So, needed someone could guide help understand couldn't meet success. smart, kid everybody like, "Yeah, really bright. doesn't apply himself." applying much could. didn't know else apply myself, that's looked like wasn't applying myself. didn't know study. didn't know break big task small chunks. didn't know attack project. get hooked something get interested something, teachers didn't understand it. wrote essay history comics 1980s. like, junior year high school. Yeah, big comic book kid sent areas comics didn't read high school. got like C-plus never worked harder anything. I've never engaged anything. turns phrase things thought clever clever according junior year English teacher, know? so, kind interests imagination didn't match school wanted. didn't get grades sometimes felt like deserved result.So, say became person needed, that's really mean, I'm talk kid parents say like "We don't know assignment. don't know get kid clean room," whatever. say, "Yeah, that's OK. That's ADHD. Like, we're going learn this. We're going work together figure get stuff done." also, lot do, sort subtextually, I'm working folks give people permission ADHD. spend lot time saying, "That's OK, you're allowed."Eleni: Yeah. it's interesting said big part normalizing struggle, that's big part podcast exists, know, sharing stories like normalizing challenges struggle, also demonstrating success, right?Brendan: pulled somehow. I'm sitting guy two master's degrees runs business married wife — I'm going get wrong. no, 2004 — 18 years, we've together 18 years, that's long time. That's big deal people ADHD circles. often don't pull off. identical twin sons 13 years old we're making work.Eleni: That's amazing.Brendan: Yeah. So, yay success!Eleni: Yay success!A big part podcast talking people got careers today. would love hear little bit story also like, know, sharing struggles encountered along way.Brendan: Yeah. story, think, story stacking skills lot ways. high school, early childhood development class. meant like learned young kids also worked preschool existed basement high school. led Future Teachers Program, like place kind went shadowed teacher worked little bit. far back as, that? like 14, 15 years old, kid stuff. kind figuring out. went college majored psychology, didn't give wanted. wanted learn counselor. undergrad psychology really history course. It's like history psychology. Like, here's Sigmund Freud Howard Gardner kind stuff. didn't care. like, "What? helping people? want learn help people." So, shifted English try become writer. English department like, "You could take two classes writing entire major." like, "But psychology going make learn history experiments won't let work people learn counselor? English won't teach write. They'll teach read criticize books." insanity. Like drove nuts. That's ADHD part. part that's like, "I don't care world works. care think world work want better."So luckily, UMass program. They'll let design major, ended designing major, called creative writing sort marketing purposes. really majored comic books, comic book passion still learned stories work. brought myths legends built major. like, "Well, superheroes

Do kids outgrow executive function challenges?

Dyscalculia, more than “bad at math”

When it’s time to split a bill or calculate a tip, lots of people confess to “not being a math person.” But when does struggling with math mean something more?When it’s time to split a bill or calculate a tip, lots of people confess to “not being a math person.” But when does struggling with math mean something more?On this week’s show, hosts Lexi Walters Wright and Amanda Morin discuss dyscalculia, a specific learning disability in math. Expert Daniel Ansari, PhD, explains why kids with dyscalculia have trouble understanding number-related concepts, like time and directions.We also spend time with Lily, a teen with dyscalculia. We hear how math challenges pop up at expected times — like when she makes grilled cheese sandwiches for her family.And of course we hear from callers about their experiences with dyscalculia and why being “bad at math” often gets overlooked.Related resourcesUnderstanding dyscalculia10 surprising ways dyscalculia impacts kidsMath anxiety vs. dyscalculia: Comparing the signsVideo: Why is dyslexia diagnosed more often than dyscalculia?What “I’m not a math person” means to meEpisode transcriptAmanda Morin: Hey, "In It" listeners. Before we get started today, we have a small but important ask: Please take our quick survey about who you are, what you like about our show so far, and what you want to hear more of. Head to U.org/podcast. Take a three-minute survey — really just three minutes. That's U dot org slash podcast. And thanks. Your input means so much. Amanda: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin, a writer for Understood.org and parent of kids with learning and thinking differences. Lexi Walters Wright: And I'm Lexi Walters Wright, community manager for Understood.org. And we are "In It." "In It" is a podcast from Understood for Parents. On our show, we offer support and practical advice for families whose kids are struggling with speech and language, executive functioning, and other learning and thinking differences. Amanda: Today, we're talking about helping our kids who struggle with math — like really struggle with math. Lily: So sometimes when I'm doing a certain problem, my brain — it just kind of gets stuck. Amanda: This is Lily. She's 13, and she's had a hard time with math for as long as she can remember. Lexi: Amanda, lots of people have a hard time with math. I definitely did as a kid, and I still clam up the moment I need to calculate a tip. I know some adults who feel allergic to Excel documents. Amanda: So you've met me and my Excel document allergy. And lots of us have those moments. That's called "math anxiety." But what Lily's dealing with is different. It's a learning disability often called dyscalculia, which you'll hear pronounced in a number of different ways. No matter which way you hear pronounced, you can sort of still hear the word "calculate" in there. And dyscalculia, at its most basic, is about difficulty with number sense — adding, multiplication — and sometimes visual-spatial skills things, like where you don't know left from right very easily. Lexi: The thing is, compared to something like dyslexia, dyscalculia is not widely known. So it can leave kids like Lily, who have it, feeling dumb. Lily: Yeah. I just kind of thought that I was bad at math, until I was 12. Amanda: We're going to hear more from Lily in a bit, and from her mom, Tracie. Lexi: But first, we asked you what dyscalculia looks like in your family. And here's what you had to say. Caller 1: For my daughter, when she was in elementary school, she really struggled with reading the clock, being on time for her classroom. Adding and subtracting is super difficult. And then math homework took hours and hours and caused a lot of anxiety. Caller 2: Long division — that was literally a nightmare. She just could not handle keeping track of every step and where to put each and every one of the numbers. Caller 3: A bigger trigger for us in noticing something was wrong, though, was his inability to connect with the idea of time and the passage of time. For him, everything was now. The idea of tomorrow or yesterday really didn't register for him at all. And when you started talking about longer spans of time, like weeks or months, he was just completely bewildered by that. Once he started kindergarten, he also really struggled with the idea of money. And while other kids were picking up the idea of penny, dime, quarter, or nickel, he couldn't associate the different values with those coins in any way. Amanda: So as we're hearing, Lexi, dyscalculia can play out in many ways. Lexi: Yeah, this sounds like a very complicated topic. Amanda: It really is, and it's not exactly my specialty. So we're turning to someone else to help us really get a grasp of what it's all about. Lexi: First I have to ask your professional opinion: Is it dis-CAL-coo-li-a? Dis-cal-CYOO-li-a? What do you say? Daniel Ansari: I say developmental dis-cal-CYOO-li-a. But you know, people vary in the way they pronounce it. Yeah. Amanda: Daniel Ansari is a professor of psychology and education at the University of Western Ontario in Canada. He studies how children develop numerical and mathematical skills — and why for some children it can be such a struggle. Lexi: Daniel says there are other names for dyscalculia, like math learning disability or mathematics disorder. Daniel: I think they can be used pretty much interchangeably, because they point to the same thing. I find dyscalculia useful because we hear so much about dyslexia. The contrast to dyslexia helps, I think, some people to better understand what it is. Lexi: And how would you explain dyscalculia to someone who's never heard of it before? Daniel: I would say dyscalculia is a severe difficulty in acquiring basic numerical and mathematical skills. Being able to judge which of two numbers is numerically larger. They will also have great difficulties in learning their math facts. Lexi: Daniel says that long after their peers have figured out which two numbers add up to 10 and they can do simple calculations in their head, kids with dyscalculia may still be counting on their fingers. And sure, that makes math class tricky. But dyscalculia doesn't just shut off when kids walk in the door from school. Lily: I guess I'll just make my grilled cheese. Lexi: That's 13-year-old Lily again. She lives in Kansas City, Missouri. She has an older sister, a younger brother, and a pet guinea pig, Fezzy, who is named after Fezzik from "The Princess Bride." Amanda: Lily and her mom said it was OK to come to her house to see what dyscalculia looks like for her. Lexi: It comes up when she's doing her math homework, but also when she's trying to make lunch for the family. Lily: I have to put the butter in here and melt it in the microwave so it doesn't take forever. Amanda: When you're making a grilled cheese sandwich, you're probably not thinking about all the steps it requires. But for people with dyscalculia, going through a long sequence of steps in a row can be a real challenge. Lily: First you have to do this, then you have to do this, and it just kind of makes my brain tired. Lexi: Lily was diagnosed with dyscalculia two years ago. Before that, she just knew that math was really hard for her — which was confusing, because reading and writing have always come easily to her. Lily: I can read like a 300-page book in less than a day. Lexi: But Lily's math troubles go back as far as first grade. Lily: So a really long time ago, when I was having trouble with even addition, it just took so long — just takes longer for my brain to calculate things. Amanda: She understands that about herself now. But when she was younger, those math struggles made her really upset. Lily: I would usually cry about it, because that's what I do. Yeah, and I'd yell, because I was just so mad that I couldn't get it right. And then I'd kind of start thinking about like, "Oh, other people can do this, so why can't I?" Tracie (Lily's mom): She would say things to me those times when she was upset. Amanda: That's Tracie, Lily's mom. Tracie: And I won't repeat them because they're not true. But just really down on herself, and that no mom wants to hear her daughter, who is, you know, at that point 10, 11, to have that view of herself, you know, it's starting to go into all areas. And I didn't want her to think that just because there is a struggle in one area that means that she's an awful person. Lexi: All this was hard on Tracie, too. Tracie: I can remember one instance where she brought home a math paper and it was, you know, she had gotten like half of them wrong. I just felt so deflated because 45 minutes a night we were spending on math. And I just thought "Oh my gosh," you know. And then getting the next chapter's homework and I'm like, "Wait a minute, we're not getting it." And I kind of thought, "What is this going to look like in two or three years?" Lexi: Tracie had studied to become an elementary school teacher. And while it was never her plan to homeschool Lily, she and her husband decided that might be best. Amanda: So now Tracie was the one trying to teach Lily math. But no matter how hard they worked on it, it didn't seem to be getting any easier. Tracie: I just kept telling myself "I haven't found the right curriculum yet." So we would start with something that was new, and I would get really, really excited, like "We are going to get through this hurdle. The answer is going to be in the curriculum." And then after a couple months, we're still stuck in the same — in the same place. And I think both of us were kind of feeling — we would get very emotional, not just with each other but... I know I would cry and worry about, you know, are we ever... what's this going to be like for her, you know, as she's an adult. Because that's what moms do — we always go to that place. So, you know, it just felt like, you know, August rolls around every year and I'd have hope, and then by October that feeling in my gut would sink. You know, I would just think, "Oh gosh here we go again." Lexi: Even though she's an educator, Tracie had never heard of dyscalculia. She says she came across it while reading up on dyslexia online. Tracie: And then I went down the rabbit hole. So it was all new to me. Amanda: For Lily, discovering there was such a thing as a math disorder was a big deal. Lily: It was a relief knowing that there was really nothing wrong, and that I just need to learn differently. Like I had always worried that once I got to adulthood, I wouldn't be able to do things because I was so bad at math. Amanda: Lily started working with an educational therapist — a specialist who's trained in working with kids with learning and thinking differences. Together they figured out techniques to make math easier and more accessible for her. Lily: Once I started going to Mrs. McCormick's and I started figuring things out, I realized that with more work I could go into a store and be like, "Hey, 20 percent off — this means I can get this for so much," and not have to think about it so much. Amanda: Daniel, can you talk a little bit about some of those methods that can help children learn math? Daniel: Yeah. I mean, there's no proven method for, you know, for helping somebody with developmental dyscalculia. But I think it's good educational principles that run across different educational subjects, such as giving students who struggle more time, repeating things more often, providing them with opportunities to strengthen their basic understanding of numbers. Making sure that they understand that, for example, the Arabic numeral 5 represents all possible sets of five objects. That's quite an abstract thing to understand, and it may take children with math difficulties more time to learn. Amanda: So like five means five cookies and five blocks and five more minutes and... so five means five, right? Daniel: Exactly. Lexi: Tracie tells us they've found some really effective ways to work with Lily on math. Tracie: So one of the things that we found was when she was first tackling things like multiplication, that what worked best for her was to have some manipulatives, so that she could touch it, move it around. Lexi: Wait. Amanda, what are manipulatives? Amanda: So manipulatives are when you use objects that you can move around in order to connect those abstract ideas of groups, sets, or patterns to visuals, so you can actually see and, well, manipulate the numbers. Lexi: Got it. Tracie: And a dry erase board worked wonders for calculations. And we still use that because erasing is really fast and it's not so labor intensive when you make a mistake. And that's kind of what — it's OK to make a mistake, it's OK to struggle — so we just wipe it away and start fresh. Lexi: So here's one game Lily learned to work on visual-spatial skills. On a chalkboard, Tracie draws a figure 8. Tracie: It's not too wonky, is it? Lily: No, it looks fine. Amanda: Then Lily starts tracing over it. Tracie: Left, right, ready, begin. Amanda: As she traces left, she has to say left. As she traces right, she says right. Lexi: And then her mom starts firing off questions. Math questions or something else related to numbers. Tracie: When's your birthday? Lily: Right. March 21st. Left. Tracie: When is my birthday? Lily: Right. I think it's May 9th. Left. Tracie: Oh no! Lily: Sorry! Is it May 7th? Tracie: Yes. Lily: OK. Sorry. Amanda: It's that combination of keeping multiple things in our working memory that she's developing there. Some of that's a muscle memory thing, where Lily is learning to recognize the feeling of going left with where left is, and the feeling of going right with where right is. But some of it's about being able to access that information quickly while there are other things going on in the background. So for example, if she were going to start driving, she'd need to be able to listen to the GPS and know right and left automatically. That's the kind of thing this is starting to work on for her. Lexi: Another thing they do to help Lily is to put lots of number-related information around the house. Tracie: See that up there? It's on our chalkboard. We have all of the squared numbers — one times one equals on, two times two equals four — to give her an anchor. So if she's got six times eight and she's stuck and she can't remember, she has six times six to go off of. And then she can do the math from there. She has a multiplication chart, too. It's the multiplication table, one through 12. And I give that to her any time that she needs it. Just the more she can see them visually, the better it's going to stick in her head. Lexi: Lily has made incredible progress in the last two years. But some things are still hard for her, like going to the store. Lily: So I'm kind of trying to work on that, and sometimes I think it's more of a — I don't know — fear of social issue. But paying is a little hard for me. Yeah. So the store is kind of one of the main places. Tracie: One of the things that I notice is when there's a lot of people and she's in line, that's kind of off-putting for her. You know the stress of "Oh my gosh, I have to do this and I have to do it fast." She doesn't want them to get mad at her. So I've noticed that. Caller 1: Now that my daughter is a teenager, dyscalculia looks a lot different. The things we struggle with are helping her manage her money, so her wallet is a complete disaster. There's bunches of dollars rolled up in it. There's too much change in there, because she struggles with continuing to add and subtract money, as well as to identify what the money denominations really are. Caller 4: The driving — a lot of times he would get lost, and that is a huge anxiety issue, because he would not know where he was, because he would try to follow somebody's directions of turning right or left. So I would teach him to look for landmarks, so that when he would call us and he was upset and didn't know where was and was mislocated, so we could determine his location. The GPS "find me" apps that we can put on a smartphone for tracking are really useful for that too. That's it. Thank you. Andrea Tudhope: Is there any advice that you would give to parents who are just learning that their child has dyscalculia or are going through some of what you guys have gone through? Lexi: That's Andrea, the reporter we sent to spend some time with Tracie and Lily. Tracie: I would just say to not worry so much about if your child is working at whatever grade level they're supposed to be in. Really, it's just important to have the master number sense and those things that are their struggle. And I know it's really hard to do that, because that's just not how — that's not how we operate with school. But it's just so important to meet them where they're at and to work on the things that they're struggling with, so that they can overcome those — so that they're not always a struggle. And just to be patient and trust the process. Amanda: Why isn't it more well-known? Why aren't math issues sort of more widely discussed the way dyslexia is? Daniel: I think, at least in the West, we have a tolerance for being bad at math. It's not something that people feel shy about admitting. I often — when I meet new people and they ask me what I do, and I tell them, you know, "I do research into math learning difficulties," it's like, "Oh my God, I wish I'd met you when I was young." Amanda: I think we have this conception that math doesn't — sometimes doesn't matter. You always use our smartphone or a calculator. But how do we use it in everyday life? Daniel: We use numbers all the time without actually thinking about the fact that we're using numerical information. Just think about waking up in the morning, and let's say you open your computer or you look at your smartphone, and you look at your favorite news site. You're immediately processing numerical information. You go to your office, you look at your bank statement, you're trying to understand the transactions, you're trying to understand how it is that you've got this balance, and you're trying to add up the different expenditures and things that came into your account. Again you need numerical information. Lexi: So Amanda, imagine — say 10 or 15 years from now — that dyscalculia is as well-known and as readily diagnosed as dyslexia is. That could really bring about a profound shift in how parents and educators respond to students with math disorders. Amanda: Totally. And you know we're still getting there with dyslexia and ADHD. If we get there with dyscalculia, it would probably also bring about a profound shift in how those students think about themselves. According to Tracie, that seems to be the case with Lily. Tracie: I know her therapist and I always say, "You can't say you're bad at math anymore — you can say it's a challenge and that you work harder at it than some people." We try to say that repeatedly to her, so that that internal dialogue changes. And so when she does come against the struggle again with math, to not have that initial reaction of, "Oh I'm really bad at this." To just stop and say, "This is hard. I need to fall back on, you know, the strategies that I use in order to figure this out." Lexi: As her sense of her abilities has shifted, Lily's gotten more confident in other areas too — like cooking. In fact, she has become something of a grilled cheese expert. Lily: It usually takes less time to cook on the other side than it does the first side, because the pan's already hot and all that. So yeah, it should probably only be about three more minutes. Amanda: And she offers these words of wisdom, which I fully support. Lily: If you use a lot of butter, it's better. Like that's the secret to a good grilled cheese: butter. Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," a podcast from Understood for Parents. Our website is Understood.org, where you can find all sorts of free resources for people raising kids with learning and thinking differences. Lexi: We also want to hear what you think of our show. "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/podcast to share your thoughts and also to find resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot o r g slash podcast.Amanda: We heard from several of you after "Episode 2: How to Deal With 'Is ADHD Real?'" And we wanted to play some of your awesome voice memos to let you know we are listening. Caller 5: I'm calling about the question of "Is ADHD real?" It's hard for me to sometimes respond to that question because I feel I don't have the emotional energy or the courage to do that. And then I realize that if I don't, I'm putting it on my first-grade son to be the one to have to respond to that as he gets older, and that's not fair to him. But I also feel like it shouldn't be just on the parents of children with ADHD to answer that question, and that schools and pediatricians and all the people that are important part of children's lives need to do a better job of communicating what is ADHD and what are other forms of learning differences and attention issues and disabilities. So it's not just on the individual to negotiate that, to be the ones to explain themselves. Amanda: Please keep your voice memos coming. This is, after all, a show for and about families like yours — and mine. If you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Maybe share it with your child's math teacher even. You can also go to Apple podcasts and rate us, which is a great way to let other people know about "In It." Lexi: You can subscribe to "In It" on Apple podcasts, follow us on Spotify, or keep up with us however you listen to podcasts. Between episodes, you can find Understood on Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and YouTube. Or visit our website: U — that's the letter U — dot o r g. Amanda: Come back next episode when we'll be talking about the unique challenges of raising kids who are gifted and who have learning and thinking differences. Penny Williams: I mean, he was really severely affected by the fact that he couldn't meet expectations and that people didn't understand him. Lexi: If you have stories about raising twice-exceptional kids, you can call and leave a voice message that we just might use on the next episode of "In It." You'll find that number at U.org/podcast. Amanda: "In It" is a production of Understood for Parents. Our show is produced by Blake Eskin of Noun and Verb Rodeo, Julie Subrin, and Julia Botero. Mike Errico wrote our theme music, and Laura Kusnyer is our director of editorial content. Thanks also this week to reporter Andrea Tudhope. Lexi: And thanks to all of you for listening and for being in it with us.

Rapid automatized naming tests: What you need to know

If your child is being tested for reading, executive functioning issues, or slow processing speed, you may hear the term rapid automatized naming (RAN). It refers to the ability to quickly name aloud a series of familiar items on a page. These include letters, numbers, colors, or objects. Other names for it are rapid automatic naming or rapid naming.Performance on a RAN test is based on how fast children can name in order all the items presented on the page, compared to other kids their age. Kids with reading issues are frequently slower on RAN tests. So the tests are often used as part of a comprehensive reading evaluation. They’re also used for the early identification of kids who are at risk for reading problems.How RAN tests workRAN tests generally show four types of items: objects, colors, letters, and numbers. Small sets of items in the same category (for example, five small squares of several different colors) are presented in rows on a page. But the order in which they appear changes from row to row.The examiner typically starts by going over the names of the set of items with the child. Then, for the test itself, the child has to name all of the items aloud as quickly as possible, from first to last, row by row.Both the time the child needs to name the items and the child’s accuracy are recorded. But the time is what’s of interest.RAN tests don’t measure vocabulary knowledge. Nor are they about recognizing letters and numbers. They’re really tests of fluency.That’s why, to get the best information from a RAN test, the evaluator should test only items the child knows well. For example, a preschooler may not know their letters or numbers. So the preschooler might be shown only colors and objects.How RAN connects to readingExperts agree that RAN tests can tell us a lot about kids’ reading skills. But they don’t all see eye to eye on why. There are two main viewpoints. Both have plenty of research to support them.One view focuses on how we recall and say the sounds for the names of the items. The belief is that RAN affects reading because it involves how well we can retrieve phonological information.Research shows that kids who struggle in this area are very likely to struggle with reading. But some experts think it involves more than just phonological awareness.They believe reading brings together a number of complex processes. These involve our verbal, visual, and motor systems. Experts say RAN covers all of them, serving almost as a small-scale version of reading even before kids actually learn to read.Kids with problems in both RAN and phonemic awareness have what’s called a “double deficit.” They usually have more severe reading problems. And they may have a harder time improving their reading than kids who struggle only with phonemes, the smallest unit of sounds in words.Strengths and weaknesses of RAN testsBy itself, a poor RAN score may not tell you very much about your child’s needs. Kids may have difficulty with RAN for many different reasons. These include attention issues, executive functioning issues, language issues, or even math issues.Sometimes, a poor RAN score is nothing to worry about at all. That’s especially likely if there aren’t any other areas of concern.But a RAN test plus other carefully chosen measurements can be important in spotting reading issues. Many kindergarten teachers give a screening test at the start of the school year.They may also give tests that monitor a child’s progress throughout the year, like the Dynamic Indicators of Basic Literacy Skills (DIBELS). These often look at rapid naming and phonemic awareness, among other skills. But the format may be different than the RAN tests.RAN tests can be an important tool in recognizing that your child might be at risk. That can be the first step to getting extra help for your pre-reader if your child needs it. Ask the school to make sure you get the information about these tests and results.For older kids with reading issues, the tests can help identify core reading problems. They can also guide the plan for teaching your child more effectively.No matter what age your child is, RAN scores are a key element in pinpointing your child’s exact reading needs. Once you know what they are, there are many treatments and therapies that can help your child learn to read more easily.

How starting a creative small business fit my ADHD and dyscalculia

Lindsay Miguelez has ADHD and dyscalculia. College wasn’t right for her, so she took a shot at starting her own wedding photography business.When you have ADHD and dyscalculia, you need lots of tricks for keeping up while running a business. Taking advantage of her smartphone is just one of the tricks Lindsay Miguelez uses. Like so many of us, when Lindsay was growing up, she was told that she wouldn’t always have a calculator in her pocket to help with math. Thank goodness that was wrong!It took seven years of struggling in college for Lindsay to decide to focus on wedding photography. Today, she’s in demand for her whimsical, romantic style. Of course, she still faces doubt and fear of failure. But she knows that sometimes you just have to say yes and figure things out later. This week on How’d You Get That Job?!, explore how you can take a passion and turn it into a career. Hear about Lindsay’s journey, and get her tips for starting a small creative business.Related resourcesWhat is dyscalculia?Dyscalculia fact sheetEntrepreneurs who learn and think differentlyEpisode transcript Lindsay: Maybe because I grew up performing, I love that, you know, we have a start time and it's go, go, go. And things have to keep moving. You can't pause. You've got to keep going. When I was tested years ago for my learning disabilities, they actually found that I had a super high processing speed. Um, and so I feel like because of that, I just love, I love the fast pace. I just love the go, go, go.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Have you ever thought about running your own small business or making a passion into a career? Our next guest, Lindsay Miguelez, turned her love of photography into a thriving business as a wedding photographer. But it wasn't easy. Lindsay has ADHD, executive functioning challenges, and a math learning difference called dyscalculia. In this episode, we're going to talk to her about her learning differences and how she got her small business going. Welcome to the show, Lindsay.Lindsay: Hi.Eleni: So, Lindsay, I know that you're a wedding photographer. What is your favorite thing about your job?Lindsay: Well, there's a ton of things. I think just having the freedom to make my own rules. I like to say that a lot. I mean, obviously I'm serving my clients. I have my couples that I love dearly, and I'm providing a service for them, but just really being able to take my business in directions that I want it to go in, that I know that I have, you know, where my strengths are and where my weaknesses are, and where, you know, I, when I started my business, there were things that I tried to do that I just came to the realization that just were not going to work out and weren't benefiting me. So just being able to take my business in the direction that I want it to, and just not having someone make rules for me and telling me, you know, what to do.Eleni: Yeah, definitely. Is entrepreneurship something that you were always interested in?Lindsay: Actually, no. Um, my dad's an entrepreneur, but I just never, ever thought of that. I was gung-ho on going to college, and I was getting a history degree. I just kept my creative, you know, things like photography and dance, um, just things that I was going to keep as a hobby, and I never thought that that would ever amount to any sort of career.So I was very focused on school, which at the same time was doing horrible in and having the most troubles, but it wasn't till I made the decision to stop going to college that I was going to pursue what I really wanted in life, what I was passionate about. And, you know, I wanted to always, I knew since I was little, that I was not meant for a typical nine-to-five job. I knew that I wanted to do something that I truly loved. I felt like I looked around at people who got their, you know, had their careers, but they just complained about their jobs all the time and they hated it. And I've never been the kind of person that looks at something just for money that, "OK, I'm going to do this because of the money." I want to do something that I love.So it was really, until I made that decision seven years ago to start my business, that I was like, "OK, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm going to, you know, run my own business." And that was very foreign to me. I'd never done that before. So that was definitely a learning process. Figuring out how to do that.Eleni: Definitely. You mentioned that you always knew a nine-to-five wasn't necessarily for you. And one of the things that you love about entrepreneurship is this idea of being able to do what you want and, um, you know, not necessarily have to answer to other people. I would love for you to talk about how that might relate to your differences, and, you know, we haven't really talked about what your differences are. So if you could like introduce what some of your differences are and, you know, if you've thought about how that might connect.Lindsay: Yeah, definitely. Um, so in the fourth grade, I was officially diagnosed with attention-deficit disorder. I was able to easily fall through the cracks because I wasn't necessarily hyper. I was very shy and quiet, so, but my grades reflected poorly on me. So it took a little bit for, um, teachers to take notice. So my mom got me into testing, and the diagnosis was attention deficit.As I progressed through school, and doing more testing here and there, it came out that I had dyscalculia, which is math dyslexia, which I realized was probably the biggest issue that I had in school and just with my learning differences. And just overall, I am a very visual, hands-on person, and I need to teach myself. So, um, having teachers teach me in a certain way, I wasn't able to comprehend. I wasn't able to do as well as the other students, and I really, really struggled. So I think that having my own business, I've done away with that person telling me how I need to learn this.I mean, even with my camera, when I started my photography business, I wasn't an expert with my camera. I still didn't understand how aperture worked. But it was easier because I could teach myself in a way that I knew I was going to learn. And I can learn from mistakes, which is really how I learn. I, once I make the mistake, I will never, ever make it again, but I have to make that mistake first.Eleni: I think it's interesting to think about, you know, you mentioned teaching yourself photography and then having to learn a lot about running your own business, um, and doing that in the style that works for you. And also setting a business up in a way that plays to your strengths. You mentioned strengths as well, earlier, so, I would love to hear like what some of those lessons were, like what were some of the things that you needed to learn about running your own business?Lindsay: Yeah. Oh my gosh, there is a ton, but just having a creative small business, really learning how to put yourself out there. And there's so much fear that comes with that. I thought, you know, what, what are people going to think about me and this baby business? You know, I know I'm not that good yet, and I'm just learning, but I had to put myself out there.Um, so there was a big lesson that I needed to learn in just saying yes, just doing it, just going for it. I always think of the Tina Fey quote. She's like, "Just say yes and figure it out later." And that's what I kept telling myself, 'cause I would get an inquiry for a wedding, and I had not done a wedding myself and I was super, super scared, and I just, I didn't feel confident.And I just thought, you know, of all the bad things that could happen, what if I mess up? But I just said, "You know what, we're going to book this. I'm going to prepare myself as much as I can. And then of course, you know, that first wedding, I learned a ton just about how the day works, you know, different lighting situations with my camera and everything. So there was a lot of fear I needed to put aside and just put it in the back of my head and just really go for it. And I find myself doing that even today, even though I have a well-established business and I have people willing to hire me and loving my work. There are still things that happen that I do get scared. And I think, "What is this person going to think? Or what if I fail? What if I don't do a good job?" And I had to keep reminding myself, "We're just going to say yes. And we're going to think about it later. We're just going to do it." I mean, even this podcast, I was super nervous, but I'm just like, "We're just going to do it. I know it's going to, it's going to be fine."Eleni: I really enjoyed the way that you phrased that, because I think a lot of people, when they think about like starting anything new, can feel like a really daunting thing, but it's really humbling to think about, well, no one really knows what they're doing until they try. And, um, you know, all of the learnings are so unique to, I'm sure, like your own unique business in your own unique situation. So I'm sure that you're learning, like, you know, what you need to learn for yourself personally, and that may or may not relate to, um, to everyone.So you mentioned ADHD and dyscalculia. Are there any challenges that come up that are related to running a small business, and those differences?Lindsay: Yes, definitely. It's definitely difficult with attention deficit when I have a lot of administrative work. And since I am the sole runner of my business, I do everything. Absolutely everything — emails, accounting, the contracts, paperwork, and also, you know, going out in the field and, and shooting and working with clients. And that I have a very easy time doing. When I am hands-on, when I'm with people, I am completely on, completely focused, and I'm loving every second of it. I can just feel that it's, you know, what I'm meant to do, and this — or just being in person with people and photographing a wedding day, I get a high from it. But when I'm in my office having to edit the thousands and thousands of photos, I — of course, I do love editing because that's the next half of the creative process and producing the images, but it gets hard, being distracted with a house, you know; I have pets, I have laundry, I have things to do.And so, working for yourself, you also need to have self-discipline. And so, sometimes I do wish I had someone who was kind of telling me what to do, even though I love that I don't have anyone in this business telling me what to do. But sometimes I feel like I need somebody to kind of keep me on track because it can just be very overwhelming.I just say my ADD is flaring when I can't concentrate, and I try to do all I can to, you know, to get things done in the time that they need to be done. Um, as far as the dyscalculia, that involves numbers. I always say numbers don't mean anything to me. They don't have any value. And I, I have never understood them. And so obviously, my job doesn't revolve around any math or any computing or anything, but simple things like my prices, like, or the amount someone owes me, I always need to have that written down somewhere because I cannot just pull that from memory. It's even hard for me to remember relatives' ages or birthdays, because it's, it's a number. It doesn't really mean anything to me. So I definitely have difficulty that I, you know, I try to hide when someone's like, "Oh, what's the price of this?" And I just, I just have to make sure, because I know in my brain the numbers are going to get jumbled.Eleni: Yeah. Well, firstly, in terms of what you talked about around, you know, a small business requiring a lot of like time management and organization, we know that, you know, there are like some executive functioning challenges that come with ADHD that relate to organization and time management. So what do you do to cope with that like when your ADHD is flaring?Lindsay: Yes. I definitely have, that's one of the things that I was diagnosed with, like executive dysfunction or I'm not sure exactly the name, but the, I remember in school, they were like, you know, it has to do with note-taking and getting homework in on time and things like that. And that was definitely something that I always had an issue with.So now I utilize my phone, my reminders, my calendar — you know, I know when I need to even remind myself to put an alarm on my phone to start getting ready. But I definitely had trouble in the past when I was first starting in, in that time management and you know, how much time I needed to get from one destination to the other, how much time I needed to really get ready. But now, doing this for many years and having the same types of sessions and the same types of weddings, I utilize my phone and alarms and my calendar to really help me, you know, keep track of time because time is, uh, is another big thing with dyscalculia that's really hard for me to grasp. I always think it takes a lot less time than it does. So in order for me, you know, not to be late, I make sure that I kind of lie to myself and tell myself, you know, if the wedding starts at two, it actually starts at 1:30, and that's the time, you know, I give myself a false time to start and act like that's the starting time. And that way I can ensure that, you know, I will get there on time and I have all my ducks in a row.Eleni: Yeah. I think it's really great to normalize, even though you have a job that requires like some of the things that you struggle with, like the time management organization, you have ways to manage that day to day and that it's still totally possible to like get those things done.We haven't talked too much about dyscalculia on the show, so, um, I think it's really interesting to hear like the way that you describe it around, you know, not necessarily having like a concept of numbers or like being able to understand what they are. And, you know, one of the ways that it comes up is, um, pricing. Do you ever get like any support around, you know, those types of challenges, like either from other people? Are there like coping mechanisms?Lindsay: I think mostly, I mean, the people that really understand how I am with numbers is my mother and my husband. So they are, as far as outsiders, it's very easy for me to just keep these things to myself. I don't want to say it's not a common thing, but you don't usually hear "dyscalculia." A lot of people hear that word and they've never heard it before. They've heard of dyslexia. So I just say, you know, it's kind of like math dyslexia.But you know, as far as in my industry, it's easy to kind of hide those things and something that I felt like I've hid my entire life. I've just known that I've got to pull out my calculator for something, or I have to look at it written down. I'm not going to — if it has anything to do with numbers, I'm just not going to remember. But thankfully in my line of work, I get inquiries, you know, via email. Nothing's ever in person. So I'm able to send pricing and send it already written out, which is good. And then, you know what I have like timeline calls with couples and everything. I make sure I have all the papers out and I see, you know, how many hours they hired me for and how their timeline looks.But a lot of times going through timelines, either creating them or viewing them from planners, sometimes it's hard, too, because it's all different parts of time, and I have to kind of calculate, OK, how much time do I need to do, to do this? Or, you know, what time do they want me to arrive versus, you know, leaving?Um, and a lot of times it's over the phone, and I'm just kind of trying to do the math, you know, to the side really quickly, but sometimes I do get a little anxious and like flustered, um, because I just know that I just can't do mental math easy in my head and quick like other people. And I'm sure no one looking at me is realizing what's going on in my brain and realizing that I'm having a difficulty, um, but, you know, it's just, it's always going to be an insecurity for me. But I'm just glad that phones have calculators and we can have calculators in our pocket all the time, unlike what teachers said in grade school, so.Eleni: Exactly. Yeah, you mentioned, you know, working with couples, obviously that's a really big part of wedding planning, um, and wedding photography. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you like and maybe even what you don't like about working with people?Lindsay: Hm. So, I am an introvert, and I a lot of times like to be alone, but there, um, so you would think that I didn't like working with people. But I think the big crowds of a wedding day, sometimes it can be frustrating with guests because they don't know me; I don't know them. And you're trying to kind of herd masses of people to do certain things. Or you have someone who's like in your shot or walking down the aisle in the middle of the ceremony and, those little things can get annoying and frustrating. And I know it's that way for a lot of people in my industry. Um, but as far as the couples that I get to work with, it has been such a — something I didn't realize that I would love and really cherish the fact that I get to know these people and we become friends or good acquaintances, and they hire me throughout their life and they grow their family and have babies and I get to keep up with them. And it's just, I feel like I have all these friends and, it's just really been, been great to, you know, get to know them and just follow their journey. And it's just, it's really awesome.Eleni: I know that you mentioned early in the conversation that it also gives you an opportunity to be really creative. And, you know, I imagine that a lot of couples have like a very clear vision of, you know, what they would like and what they would want their photographs to look like. Um, how do you help like bring that vision to life and make them feel really special?Lindsay: Yeah, so I really try hard with my consistency to produce the same quality of work and the same style, because there's a lot of different styles in wedding photography these days. I'm very, very up-front with my style, so I make sure that when someone wants to hire me that they do love my style and they like what I produce and they want the same thing. They really trust me with the creativity and to produce, you know, what they're looking for.Eleni: How would you describe your style?Lindsay: My style is light and airy. I like it very crisp and clean. Actual film photography is still a thing. A lot of people are surprised about that. I still shoot digital, but the look of film photography is, is gorgeous to me, but in weddings, I need to see what I've shot. I need to shoot digital. I'm not ready to make the jump to film, but I try to emulate, um, that style, that, you know, just kind of whimsical, romantic style so when, so that when my couples look back at their day, you know, all they feel is obviously happiness from the memories, but I want the photos to portray that as well.Eleni: Can you talk a little bit more about what you enjoy in — on the day of the wedding? I'm sure that a lot of people have misconceptions about what a wedding photographer does. Do you want to talk a little bit about what it looks like on the day?Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. I look at it as just like a big production, maybe 'cause I grew up performing. And so I love that, you know, we have a start time and it's go, go, go. And you know, things have to keep moving. You can't pause. You've got to keep going. When I was tested years ago for my learning disabilities, they actually found that I had a super high processing speed. Um, and so I feel like because of that, I just love, I love the fast pace. I just love the go, go, go. And then I love seeing my couples just relax once they hit the reception, because the ceremony is over and, you know, being in front of the crowd is over, and they're just, they're ready to party and they're ready to have fun. And it's just awesome watching them experience the best day of their lives.Eleni: Aw, that's so sweet. I also love that you really love the fast-paced nature, and that really relates back to, you know, the way that your brain works and your differences, in terms of having a high processing speed. So I love how that all like tied together. Last time we spoke, you said that you were in college for seven years. Why do you think that it took you so long to come to that realization?Lindsay: Yeah, I think about this a lot that, you know, "Oh, if only I had started my business earlier" and "I should have started it earlier." I think that I just never saw a way to do it. I never saw any examples until I was seven years in. My now-husband and I, we had just moved in together. We were dating and — but we were reaching that age where a lot of people were getting married. And so I started seeing other people, you know, posting their engagement photos. So when I decided, hey, I love photography. I see these people running their own businesses, working for themselves full time, being able to do photography, but they're doing it with weddings and portraits. So I got a job at a portrait studio in the mall thinking, you know, "They will teach me how to do this." And, so I did, and they, you know, kind of taught me how to pose, and I learned more about the camera. I only stayed there a couple of months 'cause I thought, "OK, I'm learning enough. Like I want to get this thing going. I have my name picked out. Like, I'm just gonna — I'm just going to go and do this and give it a try." And I did a lot of, you know, free shoots for people. I just contacted everyone and anyone I knew who was a couple or a senior or families to say, "Hey, like, let me take pictures of you. It'll be no charge. You'll get the photos. But I just need to build my portfolio, and I really need to practice."Eleni: That's great. You know, I think for a lot of people there's a lot of pressure, like societal pressure, family pressure, to go down the college route. And it's interesting for you like one of the main blockers really was that you didn't have role models for like people that were doing something different. It wasn't until you saw that in practice that you were able to envision it for yourself. And, you know, we hear about a lot of people that have like a passion or hobby but they didn't believe they can make it into a career. So it's really interesting to hear how you made that happen for yourself, even though it took you a while, you still got there in the end, and it sounds like you've found something that's really compatible with your differences and with your strengths, too, which is really great. Looking back, is there anything that you wish you had known sooner, um, as you were like struggling through school and college?Lindsay: The main thing I was always worried about in college was that, you know, was I going to be successful or not? And that to me in terms was not with money or anything, it just was, you know, doing good in my career but also working a job that I loved. And I really have always had a passion for history, so I knew if I got a job, you know, I would enjoy it. Um, but with college and the way my grades were reflected and how I, you know — all the struggles that I had already faced and that I knew lied ahead in order for me to get my degree, I just, it, it leaves you very insecure. It leaves you feeling like you aren't going to be successful. You're never — you're not going to make it. You're not going to, you know, be the person that you want to be. And it  took me at a very, very low point in my college career to decide to quit. And that was my first, that was what I first did; I first quit. I didn't even think of photography. Like I just said, "I have got to stop."I always wanted to be the person to, you know, fall seven times and get up eight, and just keep going, keep going, keep pushing through it. But it breaks you down the more that you fail, and breaks you down mentally. And so my first decision was to stop. And I even thought, "Maybe I'll go back next semester, but I just think that I need to stop." And so I knew I had to do something else. And so, you know, a lot of times when that's, when it feels like this is your only option, you just go for it and you don't look back or look around or anything. You just look forward.Eleni: Yeah. Do you have any advice to people who might want to start a small business based on a passion or hobby?Lindsay: Yeah. I would say, you know, any of those fears that creep up — because they will creep up; I think you're crazy if you don't have any fears — to put them aside and, and literally say yes and figure it out later. When you get any, take any and all opportunities that you can take. And I always tell people, you know, "If you quit, that's the only way you're going to fail is if you quit." If you continue to go, you cannot possibly fail. I think of the artist Lizzo. She said that at one point like she was working for like Liberty Tax and dressing up as the Statue of Liberty even, she was still pursuing her dream, and she just kept going and she did not stop. And that's how she got to where she is today. And just thinking about if she had just stopped and given up, she wouldn't be where she is. And same with me. I wouldn't be where I am. And I see a lot of people in this industry think that it's a lot easier than it is, and they go all in and then they end up quitting.And really, if you just push past those barriers and those struggles and, um, those downfalls, you know, you will make it eventually.Eleni: Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me.Lindsay: Thank you.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Andrew Lee is our editorial lead. Our theme music is created by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show.For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I’m your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.

Attention: How it’s different from working memory

Attention and working memory are crucial for everyday living and learning. They’re both aspects of executive functioning that help us take in and make sense of new information. But while they’re closely linked, these functions are not the same thing. Here’s a brief rundown of what each one is.What attention isAttention is the process that allows us to take information in. It also helps us select useful information. Think of it as a funnel. It gathers what we need to know and channels it into our brain.There are four important parts of paying attention well. Kids may have trouble with any or all of these components.Alertness. Kids need to be ready to pay attention.Selection. Kids must be able to identify what deserves attention. For example, they have to be able to focus on the teacher, not on the voices out in the hall.Sustaining. Kids have to be able to stay reasonably attentive over time. This could be for a three-minute presentation or for a 40-minute lecture.Shifting. Kids should be able to shift attention briefly when important new information is introduced. For example, they should be able to focus on a brief announcement on the intercom. Then they should be able to turn their attention back to the teacher.Kids with attention issues may not recall what they’ve been taught. That’s because it never “got into their head" in the first place.What working memory isAfter gathering information, the attention funnel feeds it into the brain’s short-term storage bucket. This is where new information is first held. Experts call this process “encoding.” This is also where the brain manipulates new information so it’s useful. This process is called “working memory.”Working memory is an active and fairly instant process. It allows us to use new and learned information while we are in the middle of an activity.Imagine a social studies class. The teacher is talking about great explorers. As students listen, their working memory does things with the information they hear so it can have meaning and relevance.This often involves putting pieces of information in some kind of order. That could be chronological order. For example, kids might picture Columbus before Pizarro on a timeline. They might put what they know about Lewis and Clark after Columbus.Kids may also put what they’re hearing or seeing into categories. For instance, they may sort explorers by the country they’re from or by the region they explored.Once this new information is processed, it leaves the brain’s short-term storage bucket. Next, it moves into a larger long-term “tank.” If the teacher quizzes students at the end of the lesson, the information is retrieved from the long-term memory tank.When kids have working memory issues, the information they put into long-term storage may be disorganized in their minds. It might not carry much meaning because it wasn't packaged correctly. And so it may not be very useful.Working memory issues may also cause information to be lost and not enter the long-term tank.Attention, working memory, and learning and thinking differencesWhile attention and working memory are different, both are important for learning. Kids with ADHD and executive functioning issues struggle with attention and working memory. And many kids with language-based learning differences may struggle in these areas too.Kids with multiple challenges like these may find it tougher to learn. But understanding exactly where they have trouble makes it easier to help them succeed.If you suspect that your child struggles with paying attention or with working memory, consider an evaluation. It can pinpoint where the challenges are. It can also help your child’s school provide the strategies and support your child needs to learn.If your child has ADHD, the doctor may prescribe medications that can help, too. There may even be other things you can do at home to help boost working memory and improve the ability to focus.

Adulting and executive function skills: How to help your child thrive after high school

Sending kids off to the adult world can feel both scary and exciting. How can families best support their kids who learn and think differently? Sending kids off to the adult world can feel both scary and exciting. How can families best support their kids who learn and think differently? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with Dr. Karen Wilson, a clinical neuropsychologist who works with a lot of college students. She shares some of the common challenges kids face in the real world — many related to trouble with executive function. Get her expert advice on how families can help their kids manage the demands of adulting. Then, the hosts hear from a parent who’s “in it” when it comes to helping kids become adults. Tune in to get tips from Danielle Janson, a mom of twins with ADHD who are in their first year of college. Related resources Life after high school: Tips to get your child readyExecutive function challenges and learning: 6 ways to help your child after high schoolEveryday challenges for people who struggle with executive functionEpisode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: …the ups and downs...Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer, and editor raising two kids with ADHD. A few episodes back, we heard from high school counselor Jennifer Correnti about how to prepare our kids to take the big leap from secondary school to whatever comes next.Gretchen: Today, we're gathering insights on how things look from the other side of that big leap. Mostly, we'll be focusing on the transition to college, but we'll be talking about other paths, too.Rachel: Later, we'll hear from Danielle Janson, a mom in Virginia whose twins, Jake and Sara, are just finishing up their first year of college. Both of them have learning and thinking differences that made this transition a little daunting.Gretchen: But first, we're talking to Dr. Karen Wilson. Karen is a clinical neuropsychologist in Los Angeles.Rachel: She's also a professor at UCLA and supervises assessment of children and adults with learning, thinking, and social emotional difficulties. And in that capacity, she works with a lot of college students.Gretchen: We were so delighted to have her share her expertise with us. Dr. Wilson, thank you so much for being with us on "In It."Dr. Karen Wilson: Thank you so much for having me.Rachel: Welcome. So, what are some of the most common struggles that you hear about from students at the beginning of their college career?Dr. Karen Wilson: Yeah, I think the kinds of challenges that I am hearing from young people, but oftentimes it's coming from their parents, the difficulties are frequently related to problems with executive functioning.I can think of one client of mine who called her parents very upset because she was falling behind in all of her coursework, and she was really fearful of failing her first semester in college. And the parent in turn reached out to me, and as it turns out, when we kind of looked at what was happening, this young woman was having trouble managing the multiple demands of college life. And what that parent realized was that she had actually been functioning as her daughter's frontal lobe all her life.So, if you think about during this transition to college, this young person who has had her mother wake her up in the morning, help her, you know, navigate to school, has kind of checked in with her daughter. Do you have everything in your backpack? Did you turn in that assignment? All of that feedback and that encouragement was now removed when her daughter was in college and the mother didn't even realize that she had been providing all of this support and scaffolding. Now she has to do her own laundry. She has to manage her own finances, manage her social life, get to places on her own.And so, navigating all of those added things was really creating a problem for this young woman. She had kind of developed the skills to address her learning and thinking differences, but didn't have to kind of manage more in real life, if that makes sense.Gretchen: Oh yeah, that does make sense.Rachel: It does make sense.Gretchen: Makes me think, well, I don't have one high schooler, but I think about this, and I think about, am I doing too much of the executive function stuff for them? And I feel like it might be this, just that kids are just so overwhelmed at school with so many things that sometimes I personally feel like, well, I better do that because they've got all these other things on their plate. How in the world are they possibly going to take care of their basic needs? I better do that for them.Dr. Karen Wilson: I see exactly what you're saying, and I think a lot of these families who have young people who've had these learning and thinking differences for some time, they have been there all along to ensure that their child is getting the support that they need to thrive and reach their full potential.But there is a time when you have to kind of back off. I mean, you don't back off completely all at once in ninth grade, but you do so a little bit at a time. And what that does is it gives young people the opportunity to see that there are some things they can handle on their own.Rachel: That's good to know.Gretchen: Yeah.Dr. Karen Wilson: One of the skills that's really important for students to learn early on are those self-advocacy skills. You know, I've worked with another student who, you know, evaluated when he was in second grade, in fourth grade. And then in high school, I remember getting a call to my office and it was from the student —all along the mother had been making the appointments — and it was from the student who said, "Hi, do you remember me? You evaluated me when I was in sixth grade. I'm now going to be going to this university and I need to get updated testing. I need it by this date. And this is the person you need to send it to."And those are the calls that I love to get. This student was ready for the transition and the parents had said, you know, "You're an adult now. You need to call Dr. Wilson and make your appointment." And I think that taking some of those responsibilities and also having the self-advocacy skills to be able to say, "This is my profile, this is what I need in order to show up as my best self" is really powerful.Gretchen: And can I just say that the skill of making a phone call, I feel like that's so underrated, right?Dr. Karen Wilson: I absolutely agree with you because some students don't know what to say or "What do I say when I get on the phone?" That is another, you know, skill that students have to learn. I mean, you have to call the Learning Disabilities Office and say, you know, "I have a test on Monday. I need accommodations. What paperwork do I need to bring to my professor?" Because that office is not going to send the paperwork automatically to your professor. That student has to ask for what it is that they need.Gretchen: Yeah. And they're not going to send a text message.Dr. Karen Wilson: They will not.Gretchen: They've got to make an old-fashioned phone call and know how to do that.Dr. Karen Wilson: Absolutely.Rachel: So, if a student is struggling academically, who should they turn to first? Is this, should it start out as a conversation that they have with their professor before they kind of take it to another space on campus? Or should they go to support services immediately?Dr. Karen Wilson: It depends on the class, and it also depends on why they're struggling. You know, are they starting only because they don't understand the material or are they struggling because they've got too many classes and they're just overwhelmed with the sheer amount of work that they need to do?You know, if it's the content that they're not quite grasping, definitely start with the professor, go to the office hours, and get some clarity on what it is that they you don't understand. But if it's, you know, "This is too much. I've got five classes, I can't keep on top of all of the expectations, it feels overwhelming," then by all means, go to the student services office and talk about maybe reducing your course load.Gretchen: Yeah. And you know, that again, brings up another life skill that I keep thinking about. Talking one on one with a professor, like I remember as a student myself the first time going to office hours thinking, "What is this? " And I was scared. So, I mean, are there ways to prep students to be able to do that?Dr. Karen Wilson: I think you have to know what you want to ask and what it is you're struggling with. And if you write it down, that is often helpful. What is it you don't understand? Bring your notebook. Bring your textbook. If you're having trouble, you know, taking notes, bring your notes and show what you've been doing just so you're prepared for that conversation.Gretchen: Yeah, I guess preparation is key.Dr. Karen Wilson: Yes.Gretchen: And I feel like maybe having your kid practice that a little bit at the high school level, right? Like, get a little practice, going to your teacher and having those lists and talking about some things that you need to cover.Dr. Karen Wilson: Practice is so key. I'm so glad you said that because high school is a great place for students to get that practice in developing those skills. And for them to keep in mind that there's oftentimes, and there will be, a generational gap between the student and the professor.So, what has to work for communication with your peers is not going to work with a professor. They've spent so much time, this generation, communicating using technology, and they haven't had the opportunity to interact in real life with another person, advocate for their needs, you know, express what it is that they know, what they're struggling with. And that is a skill that they will have to practice before they make that transition because your professors are not going to be responding to a DM.Rachel: So, how does medication fit into this picture? You know, of all of what we're talking about, are there special challenges for students in terms of staying on top of their meds now that they're out on their own? Tell us a little bit about that.Dr. Karen Wilson: It can be a challenge. And again, it depends on the young person and how much support they've been receiving at home, right? If you have a parent who's put your medication beside your breakfast every morning, that's going to be a very different and more challenging situation to manage all of that on your own versus the student who's already been managing and been responsible for taking their own medication through high school. And if you have been reminded by a parent, now's the time to set up reminders for yourself, whether that be an app or on your phone, some strategy that will help you remember now.The other thing is when you need a refill, when you run out of medication, when you're getting close to the end of your prescription, you've got two pills left in the bottle. Can that be a cue for you to request your own medication refill? And so, you know, a parent who might be listening can practice that with their child and say, you know, "For the next two months, you're going to manage your own medication." Obviously, they're going to oversee it and make sure things are getting done. But you'll be able to see where there are gaps. And, you know, if you see the empty bottle that's been sitting there for two days and your child hasn't said, you know, "I need a refill," then you know where the support is going to be needed moving forward.Gretchen: What are some things that parents, or maybe the young adults going, should maybe be more concerned about than they actually are at the time?Dr. Karen Wilson: Yes. You know, emerging adulthood, regardless of whether you have learning and thinking differences, is a vulnerable time from a social and emotional point.Gretchen: Oh, yeah.Dr. Karen Wilson: And what I mean by that is that if students are going to develop anxiety or depression, this is a critical time when oftentimes that does begin to manifest for the first time. And so, making sure that a student has the social and emotional support as they're making this transition is really important.And so, even before they go off, you know, that young person can be excited about making the transition, having that conversation, saying, you know, "I know you're really excited, but sometimes, you know, students who are making this transition can feel lonely, can get depressed, can get really anxious. If you start to feel those things, I want you to reach out to me so that we can make sure you get the support that you need."Gretchen: Well, let's talk a little bit about something different. We've been talking a lot about the challenges for kids who go to college. But what about those who take a different path, whether it's they go to work or they take a gap year or the military or something else? What are you hearing from those kids or parents about things they might be struggling with?Dr. Karen Wilson: I think they're struggling with a lot of the same things, but just in different ways. They may not have the college demands of managing classes, but if they've decided to get a job right out of high school, they also need to be at work on time. They have to finish their responsibilities, they have to notify individuals if they're not going to be there.They also are also facing the same vulnerable time where there are higher rates of depression, higher rates of anxiety. And they're, we already know that there's kind of this loneliness epidemic for all young people. And so, if you've got friends who you were really close to when you were in high school and now, they're off attending college, you know, across the country, then that can increase the loneliness that an individual might be experiencing. And loneliness, we know, puts you at greater risk for depression. And so that can also be something to keep an eye on.Gretchen: And I imagine if kids are struggling with executive function things like getting to work on time, right? Or getting a task done on time at work. That's a little different than if you turn in a paper late and you get a bad grade. The repercussions could be like you don't have a job anymore or like, it affects other people in the workplace. And so that, I imagine that might be tough to handle.Dr. Karen Wilson: Absolutely. And then obviously, that has an impact on self-concept, how you feel about yourself. "Can I do this? Can I get another job? Can I get any job if I can't handle this one?" And so, there can be a lot of self-talk that happens as a result of those challenges.But it's also an opportunity to, again, develop and practice those skills in a work environment, right? And may not be your career job right out of high school, but you can figure out what you're strong at, what your weaknesses are, and what kind of job you do not want in your future.Rachel: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. First, jobs are sometimes really good for that. So, we've talked a lot about some of the things that can trip kids up when they're embarking on this new phase of life. What can you tell us about the kids who have really blossomed? Can you think of an example and tell us what they're getting right?Dr. Karen Wilson: I have a lot of examples, and I would say that in general, the students who have those great outcomes and thrive in a college environment or thrive in their first job outside of high school are those that understand their learning and thinking differences, can self-advocate for what it is that they need, and who have the social and emotional support as they make that transition.So, they have a good group of friends that they can check in with. They know that they have the support of an adult in their life, whether that's a parent, a mentor for students who are transitioning to college, you know, many of them who've gone on to graduate and again, thrive in life are those that can in that first year continue to have a tutor or continue to work with an executive functioning coach or an educational therapist as they made that transition to kind of help them navigate that transition period.And then the other thing is really those students have really thrived, as are those students who've really been able to kind of see what it is that they need and to have put in place in their living environment to support them and help them succeed.One of those is making sure that you're getting enough sleep because, you know, college we talked about all of the distractions and consistent sleep is essential and even more important for students with thinking and learning differences so that they can. Thus, their attention system, their executive functioning system. We know that students who don't get enough sleep are at greater risk for emotional struggles and social difficulties. So, those students who have said, you know, "I need this amount of sleep, I know what you're doing, but I have a class at 8 a.m. I need to get some sleep."So, those students who again, can self-advocate with their roommates about what it is that they need to do exceedingly well. And then also those students who are, who get involved in extracurricular activities, you know, not overscheduled, but get involved with clubs and feel a sense of belonging with their university do extremely well. All of those things in place are setting you up for success.Rachel: Yeah, and I think a lot of that can totally apply, you know, in other settings as well. So, if you are taking a gap year or get a job right out of school, but you want to maybe like volunteer at an animal shelter or get involved with a food co-op or there's like all these different ways to find that sense of belonging. So, I think those are great ideas and hopefully recipes for success. Well, is there anything we didn't cover that you want to mention, Karen?Dr. Karen Wilson: You know, one thing I guess I would say, I mean, we've covered so much and I think one of the things I would say is that, you know, students who have a learning and thinking differences are incredibly resilient. And we can give them the opportunity to see that they have all of the innate skills that they need in order to achieve what it is that they want to achieve. Many will continue to need additional parental and societal support, but once they have that and we can pull back a little, they can really soar.Gretchen: Well, thank you for being on the show with us today.Rachel: Thank you so much. It was so great to speak with you.Dr. Karen Wilson: Oh good. I hope it was helpful.Rachel: Very helpful.Gretchen: Very helpful. Dr. Wilson shared so much good advice.Rachel: She did. I have to be honest, though, I know it's still a few years off, but I have such a hard time imagining my kids managing all the things in college, which is why I was so grateful when a good friend of mine, Danielle Janson, agreed to talk to us about what it's been like for her.Gretchen: This year, Danielle sent not one but two kids off to college.Rachel: Yep, they're twins. Their names are Jake and Sarah. And here's how Danielle describes them in a nutshell.Danielle: They are about to complete their freshman year of college. They go to two separate colleges, both very different kids. My daughter has always been a theater kid singing, dancing, all that. And my son is a total sports kid. Both have diagnoses of ADHD along with anxiety, and my daughter also deals with some depression.Gretchen: We asked Danielle if she remembers what she was the most worried about before they left for school.Danielle: Dealing with professors and so many different personalities and new people. That was a fear. Definitely with my daughter's depression and anxiety, sending her away to college. Like does she have a support system up there and how are we going to have all those things in place for her?Rachel: Those were some of her big-picture concerns. And then there were the worries about how Jake and Sara would handle day-to-day life.Danielle: You know, you always fear medications. Are they going to take them? Are they going to take them on time? Are they going to remember to go get the refills? Also waking up in the morning.Gretchen: Some of these challenges were things they could work on before school started. And they did. Both kids took on the responsibility of managing their meds for a few months before they left.Rachel: And they both reached out to their universities to determine what accommodations they would be entitled to once they got there.Gretchen: Once the school year started, there were a few bumps in the road. Both kids had to figure out how to manage anxiety when faced with new experiences like socializing in a big crowd or making presentations in front of a large class. But they knew to ask for help and they got through it.Rachel: As for academics, they both proved capable of advocating for themselves when they needed to. Though for Jake, at first, it took some parental nudging.Danielle: For example, he had a class. He was taking music and it was a tough class and he just really "Jake just goes talk to the professor." So, he did, and the professor sat down with him is like, "Let me see how you're studying, and let me see how you're taking notes." And the professor pointed out like, "Hey, Jake, all this information is on the slide. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Add notes that are what I'm lecturing about that's not on the slide."Gretchen: Sarah also showed herself to be an excellent self-advocate.Danielle: For example, she had a professor this semester who's kind of old school and first day of class, he said, "Hey, no computers, no iPads, no phones, nothing. I want to see none of it." So, Sara just simply met with him after class and said, "Hey, I have accommodations, I need to use an iPad to take notes." And he was like, "Great, thank you so much for telling me you have permission to use it."Rachel: Danielle's got a lot of pro tips after her kids first year of college. Jake learned a little late, unfortunately, that at his school, kids with learning and thinking differences are entitled to early registration so they can get into classes that best meet their accommodations. Apparently, this privilege is common at other schools, too.Gretchen: Also common, a free note-taking service for students who have a hard time listening and taking notes at the same time. The note-takers are fellow students, they never know who they're taking notes for, and they get paid to do the work. So, it's a win-win.Rachel: You know, Gretchen, with all these preparation strategies, sometimes it's hard to remember the big picture, like why we're sending our kids off to fend for themselves in college or wherever they choose to go. I asked Danielle about that, and I think she offers some really good perspective. What are you hoping they get out of this experience?Danielle: Well, I think we're just hoping that they learn how to be comfortable in their own skin and to just go to the beat of their own drum and know that they can do things in their own time and at their own pace. You know, to develop like a sense of self-worth and a professional life and, you know, just see all the things that they have within them to offer to this world, you know? And mine and my husband's hope for them is just as we've always said, like "We just want productive members of society. That's all we ask for."Gretchen: Yeah, that seems like a pretty healthy outlook. Well, Danielle, you've given us such good advice for families getting ready to send their kids off to college. Thank you so much for all of it.Rachel: Thank you so much. This was really great.Danielle: Thank you for having me.Gretchen: Danielle gave us so much great information. One other tip she gave was about ADHD medication, which we know can be a hot commodity on campus where some kids may be using it recreationally.Rachel: Yeah, I thought this was a really good tip. So, what she told us was that she and her husband actually sent both kids to school with a safe to keep their medications locked up and just keep them safe.Gretchen: That is such a great tip. And in fact, that makes me think that our listeners probably have some great tips. So, if you're someone who's recently pushed your kid out of the nest, whether to college or job or whatnot, we'd love to hear from you. If you've got some great tips to share, please feel free to email us at init@understood.org.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Eric co-wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.

8 tips to help grade-schoolers slow down on homework

There are many reasons grade-schoolers with learning and thinking differences may rush through homework. Kids with executive functioning issues and ADHD may be especially prone to speeding through assignments. But there are ways you can help your child slow down. Try these strategies.1. Designate a set amount of time for homework.Set aside a specific amount of time for homework every weekday. You can even use a homework contract to create a schedule. Having a set time for homework can help your child get used to the idea of homework. It also takes away the incentive to speed through work so they can go play.The rule of thumb for grade school is 10 minutes of homework per grade every night. So if your child is in third grade, your child should spend about 30 minutes a day on homework. If kids finish early, they can read, write a letter to their grandparents, or play educational games online.2. Use a timer.You can use a computer, a phone app, a stopwatch, or even an egg timer. Divide your child’s homework into timed segments. Set the timer to go off at the end of each homework task and reset the timer for each one. Encourage your child to work without stopping until the timer goes off. Having a visual and audible reminder gives your child a sense of how much time homework tasks should take. It also reminds them that they have a set amount of time, which could help with focus.3. Help your child get in the right mindset to do work.If kids are tired or stressed out from the day’s events, they may rush through their homework just to be done with it. When your child seems fatigued or restless, consider letting the homework wait a little while. Let your child run around outside or play quietly for a set time to decompress. When it’s time to tackle homework, your child will have more energy to give it their best effort.If your child takes ADHD medication and tends to crash right after school, let your child’s doctor know. You and the doctor can discuss whether or not the medication needs adjusting.4. Step in if your child needs to slow down.If you notice your child rushing, don’t wait until they’re done to step in. Try to slow your child down in the moment. Check in during homework time by asking questions like, “Are you doing your best work?” or “Will the teacher be able to read that?” It’s easier for both of you if you have your child correct problems before they finish — rather than asking them to redo work later. It can also help your child develop good habits going forward.5. Encourage kids to look over their work.Remind your child to check their work for careless errors and sloppiness before your child considers it done. You can even create a checklist with your child: Did your child follow the directions? Are the words spelled correctly? Did your child use capitals when appropriate? Can your child read their writing? Getting kids in the habit of checking their work helps them set standards for good work. And that can help them feel a sense of pride in what they’re about to turn in.6. Help kids break down projects.In fourth and fifth grade, homework starts to require more time management and organizational skills. Instead of a single worksheet that’s due the next day, kids get more and bigger assignments. And the assignments may have due dates that are further away. Help your child figure out how to leave enough time to get challenging projects done over a longer period of time. Create a study calendar that breaks down the project into small daily tasks. This helps kids see that they can get the project done in time if they work on it little by little, at a steady pace.7. Get kids the help they need.Some kids leave homework questions blank or rush through it because they’re frustrated by the work itself. They may have learning differences that affect their reading, writing, or math skills. If you think that could be the case with your child, you may want to meet with their teacher. Share your observations and ask the teacher what they’ve noticed. Together you can decide what the next step should be. You may want to request an evaluation. Your child may need specialized instruction in a skill area or accommodations to help them succeed. The sooner they get the help they need, the sooner they can focus on learning.8. Remind kids of their strengths.Kids who haven’t had a lot of success in school may not be confident about their ability to do homework well. So they may rush through it, thinking it’s not worth the effort. Remind your child of their strengths. Talk about a time your child worked hard at something — big or small — and succeeded. This could help boost your child’s confidence. And that could help your child approach homework with a more positive outlook.

ADHD and eating disorders

In this bonus episode, Dr. Roberto Olivardia talks about the link between ADHD and eating disorders, and where people can turn for support. Dr. Roberto Olivardia returns show talk ADHD eating disorders bonus episode. explains different types eating disorders — ADHD eating disorders, like binge-eating disorder (BED), often co-occur. Dr. Olivardia shares ADHD symptoms like impulsivity play role eating disorders. also talks treatment options someone know struggling eating disorder needs support.Related resourcesFind support National Eating Disorders Association.And learn about:ADHD eating disordersADHD depressionEpisode transcriptLaura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha!," podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood, someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host.I'm today Dr. Roberto Olivardia. Dr. Olivardia clinical psychologist who's based Massachusetts. He's also Understood expert host Season 2 "Understood Explains" podcast, ADHD diagnosis adults. voice sounds familiar you, that's guest recent episode show, we're thrilled us today talk ADHD eating disorders. Welcome.Dr. Roberto: Thank again.Laura: pleasure. much fun talk personal story talk something probably difficult listeners hear also important share information about. talk ADHD eating disorders, want get started asking, someone struggling eating disorder someone know struggling eating disorder, recommend turn to? do?Dr. Roberto: So, definitely seek professional help eating disorders obviously, mean, it's psychiatric psychological illness, it's also medical condition affects body lot physical ways lot mental ways. it's type condition very, difficult somebody navigate without professional help.And sad statistics 10% women eating disorders get help get treatment them. men, it's even far less. So, vastly undertreated. So, recommend could starting talk primary care physician referral. National Eating Disorders Association phenomenal organization treatment providers database, referrals helpful, local experts community specialize eating disorders. condition need working someone experience expertise working eating disorders.Laura: Thank much. we'll talk treatment little bit go on. felt important start that. Don't cope alone. Get support need. basic definition eating disorder?Dr. Roberto: So, terms clinical diagnoses eating disorders, three four main ones. So, one anorexia nervosa, characterized severe restriction caloric intake, often results weight loss undernourishment, someone less nutrition body really needs, result whole host different adverse consequences body. It's often coupled distortion body image number people might see looking larger actually are.You bulimia nervosa, characterized binge eating episodes somebody consuming large amount calories one would typically consume short period time, sometimes point feeling sick sometimes even passing eating much. bulimia, it's coupled compensating behaviors like self-induced vomiting, laxative use, fasting, overexercise too, attempt neutralize calories, although doesn't actually that, talk that.And binge eating disorder, binge episodes, without compensating behaviors.And eating disorder conditions. One avoidant, restrictive food intake disorder ARFID, refers to, could similar characteristics symptoms anorexia, perhaps body image component.So, eating disorders don't always body image component people distortion dissatisfaction weight. could dysregulation food food intake. So, DSM would see disorders.But there's would call disordered eating. could come whole host different fashions dysregulated eating, poor relationship food, people might eat healthily per se, self-talk around eating negative damaging. So, somebody who, let's say, particularly underweight overweight, every time eat cookie, call pig. That's good psyche. So, although medically might issue, psychologically there's issue terms they're relating food bodies lot ways.So, see sort whole host. So, think it's really important one reasons actually people often likely get treatment think, "Oh, eating disorder somebody 80 pounds somebody 500 pounds somebody vomiting eat." come whole host different flavors.At end day, you're somebody dysregulated, negative relationship food, eating, body image, fit umbrella warrants treatment.Laura: people ADHD likely eating disorder? so, why?Dr. Roberto: always start by, it's important understand ADHD affects every life domain. So, think core ADHD terms executive functioning issues impulsivity, things actually every day kind things likely impacted ADHD.So, episode previously sleep ADHD. People ADHD often issues sleep. Eating another one. higher prevalence now, particularly binge eating disorder bulimia nervosa, ARFID, category sort dysregulated relationship, less anorexia. don't see strong correlation anorexia ADHD. often find co-morbidity anorexia likely people OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder.Having said that, worked patients ADHD anorexia. primarily would call impulsive eating disorders like bulimia, binge eating disorder, ARFID category might rely people ADHD either drawn defensive certain tastes textures.So, people ADHD? Well, studies show know ADHD brain there's dopamine deficit, basically, dopamine neurochemical that's implicated reward. food stimulating, highly rewarding mechanism ADHD brain. mind you, people binge eat, people impulsively eat, they're kale carrots. time, foods people ADHD drawn, people eating disorders, general, drawn to, high sugar, high simple carb type foods. particularly rewarding ADHD brain. So, it's accessible, it's easy, it's legal.So, things people ADHD could use reward, soothe, self-medicate, distract negative emotions, also impulsivity alone. study done kids ADHD ages 10 14 food lab. group kids ADHD, kids without, screen beforehand level hunger, preferences food, basically let kind be. food available them. observed much ate, eat that.And afterwards, study showed that, even controlling bunch variables, kids ADHD ate kids without ADHD. interesting eating nothing level hunger, so, pre-level hunger nothing volume much kids ADHD ate. Kids without ADHD, level hunger correlated much ate. also kids ADHD even eat foods didn't even really like. asked said there. simply there.And sort joke, it's joke. mean, ADHD myself, could see-food diet see it, eat it. so, sometimes it's simple that. Sometimes, mean, patients work with, ADHD, don't hate bodies. might deep, dark things they're self-medicating. issue simply food there. It's available them.Laura: Right. remember interviewed personal story mentioned Chuck E. Cheese incident baffled how — friend relative? — able say, "I’m hungry anymore, I'm going piece pizza."Dr. Roberto: Absolutely. eat too, eat healthily, requires us tune what's called interoceptive awareness, know people eating disorders people ADHD low interoceptive awareness, tuning hunger cues, satiety

The fourth “E” is empower

My storyI’m a parent of two boys and a girl and I live in Maine. Since elementary school, my older son has struggled with anxiety, social skills, and executive functioning issues.What I was doingMy son’s early years were very difficult. He would get upset, very quickly and very loudly. It made it hard for him to keep friends. Every day, I dreaded hearing my phone ring because I knew it would be the school—again. He got into trouble because people thought he was being a “wise guy” and disrespectful. My son felt misunderstood, lonely, and always in trouble.I found myself in a pattern I now call the three E’s: excusing, explaining, and educating. I talked about his issues as a way to excuse his behavior. Later, I realized it wasn’t an excuse, but I used it as an explanation for his difficulties. Now, I try to educate people about how we can all work together to help my son be successful.What I wish I’d known soonerTo tell you the truth, I wish I’d known there’s a fourth E: empower. All that excusing, explaining, and educating was being done about my son, not with him. I’d sit in meetings and doctor’s appointments discussing symptoms, strategies and “what ifs.” How can we learn to recognize his signs of frustration? What if we try a social skills group?My son got used to me being his champion, but it became a crutch. He didn’t develop the problem-solving skills he needed to speak with teachers or friends, something both of us began to realize over time. He needed to be able to speak for himself.We started small by asking him what he thought. Instead of talking about him, we empowered him by asking things like “How can we help you to recognize the signs of frustration?” or “Do you think a social skills group might help?”After we started including him in conversations, things got gradually easier. He started recognizing situations that trigger anxiety. He learned how to manage his feelings and even practice conversations with friends. His new self-awareness is allowing him to explore his strengths, not just deal with the fallout from his weaknesses. He’s now 12 and going into seventh grade. I still need to explain and educate at times. But I also know how important it is to empower my child for the future.

ADHD, working memory, and feeling like a “burden” (Pablo’s story)

Pablo’s wife noticed his ADHD-related struggles. And he shares a unique bond with his daughter, who has autism. Pablo Chavez forgetful easily distracted, trouble managing emotions. He’s also playful, fun dad. unique bond daughter, autism. Pablo’s wife Britney noticed trouble working memory, encouraged get evaluated ADHD. Pablo reflects ADHD-related challenges sometimes make feel like “burden” home. also positive attitude brings joy people around him.We learned Pablo’s story wrote us! love hearing listeners. email us ADHDAha@understood.org.Related resourcesWhat working memory?ADHD emotionsThe difference ADHD autismPodcast transcriptPablo: So, biggest "aha" moment wife pushing get diagnosis, know, several years big roller coaster really high highs really low lows, depression, anxiety dealing issues. like, no, that's it. know, something change.Laura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha!" — podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood. someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host.I'm today Pablo Chavez. Pablo electrician, husband, father two lives California. Pablo got touch us via email. wrote us talk us show share story. compelled wanted invite on. thanks coming on, Pablo, thanks emailing us.Pablo: course. Thank you, Laura, me.Laura: anyone listening interested sharing story, email address ADHDAha@understood.org. read emails come in. don't always time respond right away, I'm thrilled hearing amazing people like you, listening show want share story.Pablo: It's honestly really great podcast. I've heard couple stories twice already.Laura: Thank you. means lot me. about, would love know, get diagnosed ADHD? Pablo: September/October 2021 officially got diagnosed. Laura: led seeking evaluation getting diagnosed ADHD?Pablo: That's kind like two-part series struggled change positions work, lot memorization, computer skills, scheduling, planning I'm strong in. boss would often get onto me. Like could forget? It's schedule? It's plan. Laura: again? Pablo: I'm union electrician, subcategorized low-voltage electrician. deal lot systems access control, data networks, CCTV, fire, alarm, DAS systems, fiber optics. I'm communications. I'm actually Airbnb, headquarters San Francisco. company contracted Airbnb manage access control systems globally. manage 16 sites, Beijing, Singapore, Sydney, Paris, Dublin, Portland, Montreal. Yeah, place. Laura: Wow. lot responsibility. sounds like lot manage.Pablo: Yeah, is. is. got yearly review, that's told me, like, performance isn't par. It's well. need step up. telling pushed start seeking help. That's wife told me, think aboutADHD? know, maybe symptoms coincide ADHD is. Laura: noticing? Pablo: Memory biggest part, honest. even going store, she'd send two three things. I'd forget least one, I'd call multiple times. again? again?One thing mention often usually parties, would often ditch her. purposely, right? go, oh, I'm going say hi guys really quick. I'd get caught jump another group go another group. end night, she'd fairly upset. know, barely hung me, know. And — understand someone would feel way. people would like upset significant didn't hang uncomfortable setting her. 'Cause she's introvert.I'm much extrovert. it's purposefully ignoring her, accidentally getting caught things. Laura: Give example. You're bouncing around, you're party you're talking someone. happens? move something else. Tell that. Pablo: Yeah. get — wife likes call giddy. get really giddy, really childlike playful energy. bounce around, conversate. Get excited. People seem eager talk usually seem interested giddiness. like learn. like hear stories. guess like interaction. It's soothing. It's fun.Laura: imagine one things really drew you. giddiness, playfulness. Pablo: Yeah, that's mentioned. soon started taking medicine, little concerned. thought wouldn't anymore, stories she's heard.Laura: case you, maintain giddiness? Pablo: Oh yeah, much. Laura: I'd like go back conversation wife first suggested, could maybe ADHD? remember said you? Pablo: brought lot symptoms. Like would extreme mood swings. I'd either really happy really mad upset. way express anger shutting down, shut down. don't talk. eye contact. I'm barely even there. Laura: maybe trouble managing emotions. accurate? Pablo: Yes, much so. much so.Laura: That's really common actually, Pablo. People ADHD, know, might tend feel anger frustration disappointment intensely others. That's related trouble executive functioning. Pablo: Yes. Oh, one. Executive function. would get stuck nowhere, knowing lot things do, able start. I'd hyperfocused things, one thing, maybe day complete clearness. Laura: describing earlier conversation, sounded like trouble working memory, absolutely sign ADHD. It's like sticky note brain you're storing short-term information. Pablo: Exactly. heard perfect analogy that, helped, kind help explain wife lot people ADHD is. imagine list tasks. sticky notes little cards. put desk shuffle them. That's memory. That's order go in. know, one — don't remember. kind look through, sort, every time. Laura: Pablo, used server restaurant — karaoke restaurant places. remember keep track people's orders. Like would furiously write down. — tell everybody, actually really great server. hyperaware struggled working memory just, never missed beat, right? always, wrote everything point would stayat table little bit long, never forgot anything. wrote down. Pablo: We're adaptive like that. think that's kind drives us little bit knowing fault. perfectionist. wife calls perfectionist, much so. "go big don't it" type attitude. giddiness always "go big." Don't shy away. it. Laura: last spoke, mentioned felt like burden. Pablo: Yes, much so. think rejection sensitivity, believe it's called. think affects quite bit. remember growing up, afraid lot things. lot things. illegal immigrant child. think pushed back further, kind heightened rejection sensitivity. Always felt like burden. felt quiet. Like would rely people say things me. growing up, pretty much same, except lot confident. learned mask lot symptoms, would portrayed quiet scary.Laura: felt like people perceived quiet scary? Pablo: Oh no, know. told me. Laura: told you. Pablo: Yeah. really fit high school. starting quarterback high school pitcher outfielder baseball. went all-league baseball. didn't good football, though, coming quarterback, right, freshman. told really scary, really scary, know, quiet, scary, serious. soon started practicing got know me, like, dude, funny. You're hilarious. You're cool. can't believe afraid you. Laura: That's big difference described terms giddy fun parents. hiding lot.Pablo: much masking lot symptoms high school. Laura: feeling like burden, Pablo, change got diagnosed? Pablo: No. No. don't think it'll ever change don't really control symptoms. feel like always rely people should. it's just, it's something don't want do. I'm learning accept it. I'm learning that, know, like wife wants help me. She's forgiving. She's tend

A unique IEP solution for our twice-exceptional son

Because of our older son’s high test scores and big vocabulary, his teachers have often suggested that he be placed in gifted and talented (GT) classes. But since he also has issues with executive functioning, social skills, and learning, it’s not that simple.Back when he was 8, my son got his first IEP. The school recommended that he be placed in a self-contained class to help with his meltdowns and difficult behavior. Although my wife and I initially resisted, the class turned out to be just what he needed. He was able to learn in a safe space and soon got better at managing his emotions and coping with stress.As he got older and developed more social skills, he gradually moved out of the self-contained class and into a mainstream grade school classroom. But then a new problem surfaced.Our son is a very intelligent and logical thinker. By fifth grade, he was trying to connect what he was reading in class to larger social issues, like criminal justice. But his teacher and peers just weren’t ready for that.While our son is smart, he also tends to see things in black and white. He can get frustrated with other kids for not “getting things” as quickly as he does. Combined with his trouble with social skills, this led to a lot of friction.We started talking to him about the possibility of taking GT classes. We told him GT would let him work with peers closer to his academic level.Our son, however, felt anxious about trying GT. His biggest concern was the increased workload of being in an accelerated class. Rightly or wrongly, he felt like a lot of school was just busy work, and that he’d rather stay in a regular classroom and not deal with the pressure.My wife and I would always rather our son be happy and OK than accelerated. So we accepted his decision. Our son continued to get the supports and services in his IEP and did well in middle school. But the issue didn’t go away.In his ninth-grade English class, he was again feeling a lack of challenge. The material in the class had a lot of gray area, which doesn’t match our son’s strengths. And what was taught often felt too basic for him. He was feeling frustrated and alone.We called an IEP team meeting and asked for help. How could the school accommodate our son’s learning differences and out-of-the box thinking, while also making sure he was challenged academically? And could all of this be somehow worked into his IEP?Most of our son’s IEP goals have been focused on behavior and his need for concrete instruction. To include a program for his giftedness in his IEP, there had to be an academic impact on him. In other words, we had to show that his high intellect was preventing him from learning in the regular education classroom!Thankfully, his high school was on board. Together, the IEP team created a hybrid program for English that combined classroom time and independent study to meet our son’s needs. This was something the school had never tried before.Here’s how it works. With the help of the GT teacher, his English teacher provides him with more challenging assignments than he would normally get. For instance, rather than short worksheets and quizzes on Romeo and Juliet, he’s writing a longer essay to explore the play in depth. The due dates are spread out to give him time to focus on bigger projects like this.On most days, he works independently in the library or study hall. But once a week or so, he joins the English class to participate in class discussions and to practice the skills he’s working on. He still attends regular classes for all other subjects. Thankfully, he doesn’t feel any stigma about the program, and it’s working out well so far.As we’ve managed to work out a solution for our older son, we also have one eye on our younger son who is in grade school. He has ADHD, and is also intellectually gifted like his brother.Our younger son does just fine in the regular education classroom with supports. Right now, we don’t have goals around our younger son’s giftedness written into his IEP. His teacher simply does her best to challenge him a little more in the classroom.I’m hoping, however, that we find a solution that’s unique for him, just like we did for his older brother. For twice-exceptional (or 2e) people, sometimes giftedness can be just as tricky to work with as their other issues.Read myths about 2e kids. Learn more about gifted children’s challenges with learning and thinking differences. And fine out how a documentary about 2e kids made one mom a more hopeful parent.

ADHD, sleep apnea, and symptoms beyond the DSM (Roberto’s story)

Dr. Roberto Olivardia is a clinical psychologist with ADHD. While he was learning about ADHD for his career, the symptoms felt a little too familiar. Dr. Roberto Olivardia clinical psychologist ADHD expert diagnosed ADHD adult. learned ADHD career, signs felt familiar: impulsivity, trouble focus, more. procrastinated constantly college mischievous kid. even kicked Sunday school. Once got sleep apnea control, ADHD difficulties became even clearer — wasn’t you’d typically find DSM. (That’s handbook health care professionals use diagnosing things like ADHD.) Roberto host Season 2 Understood Explains, unpacks ins outs adult ADHD diagnosis. also two kids ADHD. Listen episode ADHD Aha! learn ADHD trouble sleeping, plus ADHD time zones (the “now” “not now”).Related resourcesDriven Distraction, Edward M. Hallowell, MD, John J. Ratey, MDHow ADHD affects sleep — helpIs ADHD sleep disorder?Understood Explains Season 2: ADHD diagnosis adultsEpisode transcriptRoberto: So, "aha" moment realizing, "Oh, beyond attention. beyond school." eat food spend money sleep plan activities things made much sense. "aha" moment recognizing ADHD really connected many things.Laura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha!," podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood. someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host.Laura: I'm today Dr. Roberto Olivardia. clinical psychologist Massachusetts. He's also Understood expert host Season 2 "Understood Explains" podcast, covers everything need know ADHD diagnosis adults. Super relevant show. show ADHD "aha" moments, know, Roberto, lot folks listening show may wondering, "Should get diagnosed ADHD?" So, we'll talk Season 2 "Understood Explains" get interview. welcome. Thanks here.Roberto: Oh, it's pleasure, Laura. Always pleasure talking things ADHD.Laura: Well, let's get started. diagnosed ADHD adult, right? makes apt host Season 2 "Understood Explains." So, don't start telling listeners diagnosed ADHD?Roberto: So, officially diagnosed 35. However, realized that, "Oh, it, like ADHD," probably 30, 31, know, tell people keep mind, I'm 50. so, young, kids diagnosed ADHD kids pretty serious conduct disorders, probably lot undiagnosed learning disabilities, kids might poor social skills, hyperactive, impulsive.And even though hyperactive, wasn't hyperactive antisocial way oppositional way. mischievous, don't get wrong, within sort boundary, well school, even though hated school. So, wasn't identified back then.So, nothing throughout life ever see affiliation knew time ADHD. Even graduate school late 20s, learned it, frankly wasn't lot, that's indictment particular program. ask lot colleagues this: "How much learn ADHD clinical psychology PhD program?" people say "very, little."So, wasn't patients started private practice, treating issues like eating disorders OCD bipolar disorder, also happened ADHD. suddenly I'm like, "Oh, let learn ADHD," would read it. one things I'm reading it, like slowly, like, "Oh, understand that. Oh, makes sense me. relate that." wasn't much like fireworks epiphany like people, certainly lot patients diagnosed ADHD. familiar sense of, "Oh, me. Oh, yeah, makes sense." actually something validating, felt good about.Laura: signs stories relating most, like angle ADHD? flavor?Roberto: Yeah, think first specifically remember patient sleep apnea. struggling depression. eating disorder also sleep apnea ADHD. reading sleep apnea, thought, "Oh, like lifetime sleep issues." mean, sleepwalker, sleep talker, sleep paralysis. severe sleep apnea, night terrors, name it. So, would read sleep apnea would read connection ADHD sleep, thought, "Oh gosh, makes much sense." So, remember like first angle perspective.And reading executive function issues around procrastination, lot times think past, would think, "Oh, people..." honestly think culturally people still solely see ADHD, person procrastinates doesn't get done. certainly, affect lot people ADHD. part, least school, one always got done. would night. would literally, mean, college running across campus get paper professor's mailbox 5 p.m., mean, that, would get done.And so, started reading that, like, "Oh, wait minute, people ADHD, procrastinate pull off," me. started sort reading broad sense impulsivity, it's like, OK, well, maybe haven't issue this, this, that, always identified knew intuitively addictive personality — anything like like much quickly. And, level, friends growing people issues related it.I didn't see different individuals — even individuals might conduct disorders issues. hung lot kids. mischievous side younger, kind liked little bad. little dangerous.Laura: I'm going ask that, don't worry.Roberto: So, read that, thought, Oh, honestly, much. don't think lot written ADHD '80s, mid '90s. mean, think Ned Hallowell's book, "Driven Distraction" written in, think '94, '95, that's adult ADHD even talked about, kind nuts. like "Where people think went? Like 18 vanished?"Laura: Right. Suddenly executive functioning issues, won't problem college.Roberto: life, right?Laura: Yeah, exactly. So, OK, that's, taking notes. So, number one, ADHD sleep, folks may recognize Roberto's voice actually published bonus episode "In It" talking ADHD sleep "ADHD Aha!" feed, great. want ask little bit that. next thing mentioned procrastination, still getting done. So, like latching onto urgency, sounds like. mind go back little bit ADHD sleep?Roberto: Sure. Absolutely.Laura: quick explanation connection ADHD sleep. encourage folks go back feed listen full explanation, I'm curious interact, also played life.Roberto: Yeah, lot research done ADHD sleep, think honestly, know tip iceberg. know centers brain are, particularly frontal lobe, activated implicated sleep. One best quotes ever heard, don't, wish could credit don't know said it, actually first ADHD conference went 2008, speak every year. said, "For someone ADHD, going sleep lying dark room waiting nothing happen." was, totally made sense thought it's unstimulating it's kind boring. Like you're waiting to, "OK, happening? Like, going to...?"And course, mind thinking it, know, much. it's easy there's stimulation ADHD person generate stimulation we're so, need that. Like brain, dopamine deficit. So, we're always seeking stimulation. sleep, you're kind of, job de-stimulate, really hard.And psychological components well. mean, nighttime also less distractions, one's expecting anything nighttime. college grad school, nothing distract me, better zone work. sometimes nighttime level procrastination would get day. OK it's do-or-die situation kind thing.So, there's something that. it's even work. Sometimes could be, "I don't want let go day I've fun downtime." I'm very, productive throughout day, years ago could literally nothing day. kind wasting day procrastinating yet

How to organize your child’s dresser drawers

Does your child wear the same shirt day after day or complain they can’t ever find their favorite jeans? Keeping drawers organized can be a struggle for many kids. But if your child has trouble with organization or executive functioning issues, it may be even harder.You can reduce everyone’s frustration by helping your child organize their messy dresser drawers. It’s a good idea to hear your child’s thoughts and ideas before making any changes. But once your child has a system in place, maintaining it is much easier. Here’s how to get started.1. Clear some space and dump out the drawers.Clear off your child’s bed or make some space on the floor. If there are already clothes on the floor, then have your child help you separate what’s dirty and clean. Put the dirty clothes into a hamper and put all the clean items into an empty laundry basket. Next, you can both dump the contents of the laundry basket and the dresser drawers into a big pile on the floor or the bed.2. Sort into piles by type of clothing.Sit down with your child and start sorting the clothes into distinct piles. For example, put all T-shirts in one pile and all long-sleeved shirts in another. It’s better to be more specific at first, such as separating jeans and leggings into their own piles instead of just having a pile for pants. You can always combine them later.3. Throw away or give away old or outgrown clothes.While you have all your child’s clothes out, it’s a good time to do some weeding. Keep a trash bag handy for clothes that your child has outgrown or doesn’t wear anymore. Those things can be handed down or given to charity. Have another bag ready so you can throw away socks with holes or other things that are really worn out.4. Decide on a system.See if you have enough drawers for each pile and decide on a system. If you don’t have as many drawers as you have piles, help your child choose which types of clothes can share a drawer. For instance, does your child want T-shirts and long-sleeved shirts together?You might decide it makes more sense to sort clothes by season. You could put shorts and T-shirts in one drawer and long-sleeved shirts and long pants in another.Another option is to sort by how your child gets dressed in the morning. Kids who have trouble with sequencing may find it easier to have underwear in the top drawer, shirts in the next drawer, pants in the drawer after that, then socks and sweatshirts in the bottom drawer.5. Prep and label drawers.Since the goal is for your child to maintain this organization system, it can help to label the drawers. Younger kids might benefit from a picture stuck to each drawer. Older kids might just need labels that say “shirts” or “pants.”You may want to buy drawer dividers to keep your child’s sock and underwear drawer a little tidier. You could also make dividers out of cardboard or place items in shoe boxes inside the drawer.6. Teach your child to fold clothes.If your child has motor skills issues, your child may have trouble keeping clothes organized because folding is hard. Walk your child through the steps while demonstrating how to fold T-shirts, pants, and other items of clothing into rectangles of approximately the same size.If folding continues to be a struggle or is something you also have trouble with, there are other options. You could invest in a flip-folding board. It’s a fun and fast way for your child to fold everything into a uniform size. You may also try rolling clothes into tight, compact pieces instead of folding them.7. Consider storing clothes vertically.Many kids stack items of clothing one on top of the other in their drawers. That can be one reason why your child may wear the same clothes over and over again. Your child sees only the clothes on the top and rarely gets to the ones at the bottom.Stacking clothes vertically, starting from the front of the drawer to the back, has several benefits. It saves room, but it also helps your child see more options when opening the drawer. It also allows your child to sort by color, texture, and other favorite characteristics. (If you’re unsure how to stack clothes vertically, see how in the video at the top.)Cleaning a messy room isn’t always fun or easy. But starting with your child’s drawers can help get clothes off the floor and show your child how to successfully maintain their room. Explore more ideas for getting — and staying — organized. And read about the organization strategies one mom put into place after losing one too many pairs of mittens.

Life after high school: Tips to get your child ready

How can families prepare their kids who learn and think differently for life after high school? Get advice and tips from a high school counselor. For many families with kids who learn and think differently, getting through high school can feel like a big challenge. But what about the challenges after high school? How can families prepare their high-schoolers for what comes next — whether that’s college, a trade school, a job, or a combination of things? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with Jennifer Correnti, a high school counselor and 504 plan coordinator in New Jersey. Tune in for Jennifer’s advice on how to prepare kids for life after 12th grade. Learn what accommodations colleges and workplaces might be able to provide, and how to ask for them. Get tips on supporting kids during this transition time, including teaching them to self-advocate. Related resources After high school: Different ways to thriveAre there IEPs and 504 plans in college?7 things to know about college disability servicesFAQ: The Americans with Disabilities Act at workEpisode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: ...the ups and downs...Gretchen: ...of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today we're talking about how we can help our high schoolers who learn and think differently and prepare for what comes next.Gretchen: Maybe that means college or a trade school. Maybe it means work. Or maybe some combination of these things. The key is helping them get the information and skills they need to figure out their goals and to achieve them.Rachel: With us today to share advice on how to do that is Jennifer Correnti. Jennifer is the director of school counseling and the 504 coordinator at a high school in New Jersey.Gretchen: The student population there includes many new immigrants and kids of all different backgrounds with a wide range of expectations and hopes for their future.Rachel: It's Jennifer's job to support them, advocate for them, and help prepare them for whatever comes next.Gretchen: We're so happy to have her with us today. Jennifer, welcome to "In It."Jennifer: Thanks for having me.Gretchen: So, as you know, today we're talking about helping kids who learn and think differently, prepare for the transition after high school. So, I'm wondering, how do you start that conversation with the students at your school? What do you want them thinking about when they first come in as freshmen?Jennifer: Every student has intentional conversations with their school counselor about what their plans are. And we have to begin with the end in mind, right? So, when a student walks into a high school, we need to start asking them, "What do you think you might want to do when you leave here?" And when I say that I don't mean give me an exact role that you want to have when you walk out of the door in June of your graduation year. We're talking about what do you enjoy? What do you want to capitalize on? What are some things you don't like? Right? Because you can't always talk about the likes, you got to talk about the dislikes.And we also, you know, rely on the behaviors that we see. Like, if you're telling me that you want to do something, that we need to start walking those walks and get those skills early. If you tell me that you want to have a job, like working on the railroad, well, the railroad, right? Conductors have to be on time. We have to do things and you keep walking in 10 minutes late. That's going to be really upsetting for the people who want to get to work on time. So, you know, those are the things that we are working on. So, it's behaviors. And then also, you know, likes, dislikes.Gretchen: Yeah. You know, all kids, no matter where they're going to go after high school, need to develop some skills, right? Some like life skills, being out in the world. So, what are some of those skills you're trying to teach your students while they're in high school? And how do you do that?Jennifer: Well, sometimes I do it better than others, honestly. But, you know, the biggest are those executive functioning skills, you know, can really be central to a student. You know, the ability to put your things in order or the ability to keep a calendar, your time management. Because that time management piece is easy at the high school level, right? Because bells ring and they tell you when to move.Gretchen: Right.Jennifer: That's not going to happen when you're at college and you're sitting at the table with your friends in the student center, you know, eating Taco Bell and it's time to go to class. There's not a bell that's saying, "Oh, I got to go to class." Like you need to be able to get there, you know, being on time. But the biggest one that we have to constantly work on is advocacy, right? You need to say what you need. We need you to find a way and outlet. It doesn't have to be necessarily your voice. Maybe you need to learn how to craft an email that says what you need. Like, maybe you need to just write it down and give it to me, whatever.But you need to be able to say to your teachers, to the people around you, to your principals, anybody, "Can I speak to you? I need to talk to you about this. Can we grab Mrs. Correnti and ask her to come in?" Because they know that I might be the person that will help support the words that they're looking for.So, we're doing a lot of like, role modeling and like role-playing down at the high school level where, you know, if I have students that need to advocate for themselves, I'm going to often say to them, "Hey, why don't we bring your teacher in? The three of us can sit here. We'll rehearse it first. Your teacher will come in. You could say what you need, and I'm there to help if you get stuck."Those are the things that we really need to focus on for the kids. But time management advocacy, point A to point B, executive functioning, like those are just heavy hitters.Gretchen: Yeah, I feel like a lot of our listeners are going to want to know about the time management piece. So, how is it that you're teaching some of these time management skills? What's the secret recipe there?Jennifer: I don't know that there is any. I think that what we try to impress upon the students, right? is that at the end of the day, this is how like you need to move forward through this world. And I am doing what I can do here with you. I'm working with you on these plans. If we can't remediate here, then I might want to bring a parent in, a caregiver in, and ask them what they think that we can do together. Maybe I'm going to bring your teacher in.So, I'm going to keep bringing that team together to find out what we can do better. Does it always work? Sometimes it doesn't. I hate to say that, but it doesn't. Some of my toughest lessons in my life were learned, you know, outside at the college level.Gretchen: So, let's focus for a minute on those students who know they want to continue their education after high school, whether that means a two-year college, a four-year college, a trade school. Who should they talk to as they try to figure out what school would be a good fit for them?Jennifer: Everybody.Gretchen: Talk to everybody.Jennifer: Talk to everyone. Talk to the admissions rep that visits your school. You know, you don't have to do it in front of everybody. You could write, I've had students do this where they write the question down and they want me to ask it. And if you choose to tell your story, that's your disclosure. Like, that's cool for you.But your school counselors are not going to walk around saying, "Hey, we have a student sitting right here who has whatever. Can you talk about how you're going to..." So, we will ask students ahead of time if they want to write something down for all students. Maybe there's a shy kid, you know, who just doesn't want to ask the question. So, we will do that. And we would encourage you to have those conversations with everybody. I mean, even your teachers, right?Your teachers went to college, usually for a content-specific area. What was it like for them? Did you have to do this? Did you have...? Having those conversations makes the kids feel better about what's to come.Gretchen: Mm hmm.Rachel: So, what kinds of questions would they be asking or writing down for you to ask?Jennifer: So, I mean, we've had kids ask, "Is there an Office of Students with Disabilities on campus?" We've had students ask, "What kind of accommodations could be offered?" You know, we have kids ask about like, "Are there jobs on campus?" Because, you know, the transportation is an issue for them. We talk about job placement, if there's an internship, study abroad options, like who's eligible to go on those. So, those are the variety of areas that we've had students ask those questions.Rachel: That's great. And those questions really help them figure out if a school is the right fit for them or what their next step might be, what might make sense.Jennifer: You could tell, I often say to kids, like when you're with the admissions people, you have to get a feel of how that school's going to take care of you. If you have an admissions person who's just reading off material and going through the next slide and doesn't have answers, then you need to just take a minute and think about, "Is this the way they're going to treat me when I'm on campus?"So, I encourage the students to really hear what people are saying to you. If they say, "Oh, you got to contact the Office of Student Disabilities, they don't know anything," that worries me.Gretchen: Yeah.Rachel: Well, you just started to answer my next question, but I have a feeling there's more. What are some signs that a school might be just a bad fit for someone with learning and thinking differences?Jennifer: First, I would probably, any schools that don't get federal money, which I can't even name a lot of them because I can't imagine there's anybody really surviving without some federal money. But like, you know, 504s are federal mandates. So, that's an important thing. You may also look at what they're able to say about the accommodations that they provide.There are different levels for schools like level one, level two, and then a structured experience. So, there's actually a book K&W that will list the schools and how much resources they will give a student. That's helpful. We have that book in our office.Gretchen: I'm sorry, can you go back to this level one level too? Like I don't know what that is. I'd love to know what that is.Jennifer: So, there are like levels of support that schools offer and like, some level ones might offer just basics, right? Some level two schools might offer like a little bit more resources. Maybe they have headsets for you. Maybe they pay kids to take your notes. And then there's like the structured schools that are geared towards individual education plans that are geared towards more structured experiences focused on students with disabilities.So, there are different levels of schools. We are seeing more and more schools begin to incorporate higher levels of resources for students with disabilities.Gretchen: How do you find out, though, what sort of level of school is? How would you know that information?Jennifer: So, that K&W book tells me a lot.Gretchen: K&W.Rachel: OK. I just looked it up. Here's the full title, if anyone wants to make a note of it, it's the K&W Guide to Colleges for Students with Learning Differences.Jennifer: That's, yeah, I just called it the K&W, but that's one of the, they'll tell us a lot about, I think you know about the schools in the area that might be supportive. So, a lot of times I'm going to look on the websites and I'm going to see what the resources are, you know, what offices they house on campus that will help our students and give that information to the students and the parents to see if it fits.Gretchen: So, then if I'm a parent going on a website for a college my kid is interested in or a trade school or whatnot, what is the name of the office that I'm looking for? Like, is there one specific name or do they go by all different kinds of names?Jennifer: They name them all kinds of things. Mostly they like to make them so like they have like cute little names, like oars or, you know, because like, they're helping you.Rachel: Oars, like rowing a boat?Jennifer: Yeah, like rowing oars, but it's like the Office of Accessibility Resources, right? Like they try to make you cute. So, what I usually do is in the search bar is type in disabilities, and it's going to pop up, right? So, it's going to show me, you know, what the name of the office is, Montclair State just started an Office of Student Belonging.So, again, I think that we're seeing this Office of Student Resources branching out to cover a variety of resources, right? Not just like the learning disabilities, but also mental health issues that might emerge, social, emotional.The majority of schools that we see are looking to support students, right? Because retaining students past freshman year is important to a school. And so, they're going to do what they can to keep those students engaged in the college process.Gretchen: Aren't post-secondary schools and colleges required to provide some sort of services for students with learning disabilities?Jennifer: So, yes, they can, they have to provide services, right? But they don't have to provide them at the extent that maybe you saw when you were in high school. So, an example would be we don't often see extra time on projects at a college level because you got your syllabus in the beginning of the semester and so you knew when everything was due.So, that's one that colleges like we don't see often, but we will see extended time on time tasks in terms of like standardized testing. One of the things that we do in preparation for something like that with students is at the high school level begin to put like 50% extra time, you know, 100% extra time, not untimed, because untimed is something that you'll not see at the college level.But again, using those skills starting in ninth, 10th, 11th, 12th grade allows you to build up a stamina for that testing that's inevitable.Rachel: Once your student is out of high school, to what extent do past IEPs or 504 plans, like the actual paperwork, matter? Are those pieces of paper or documents important? Does anybody want to see them?Jennifer: Yeah. So, the first thing I say to students when they're about to leave us is to take that information and put it where their parents put their, like, marriage certificates like anything else in the fire-safe box. Because you are going to be asked to draw on those again.And when you go like, let's say the student is going to go off to college, you have to bring the documentation because they will take that and they're going to use that as the basis. They're going to see how long the plan was in place for, right? They're going to get a lot of good information. But that's only going to be the first step for some of those schools. Some of them are going to say, "Well, this is three years old. You need to get another evaluation," and that's on you, right?So, like, that's going to be something that you will have to take on as a family to get those evaluations redone. That's my quick tip. I often like to make sure that anything that like my students are using evaluation wise are going to be from junior and senior year because it at least be within the three-year mark.Gretchen: So, when they go, for example, to the Office of Student Resources or Student support, whatever it's called, somebody working there is going to look at those materials and are they going to use them then to recommend accommodations or, because there’s not going to be an IEP in college, right? Can you explain a little bit about that?Jennifer: So, you are going to have a conversation, again, advocacy. And it won't be you and your parent, right? They're not going to talk to your parent, right? It's going to be you. They're going to go through the information that's presented and say what they can provide for the student.Again, onus is on the school in high school, but it's not the same level at the college. So, in an IEP, you may see some modification to curriculum. You won't see modification to curriculum at the college level, right? They're just going to try to find ways to help give you the access to that curriculum. And that might be audiobooks, text-to-speech, like someone assisting writing your notes. Those are the things that they're going to accommodate.So, you will go into that office and go back and forth about why you need something. If you got 50% extra time for like tasks like standardized tests, they're going to say, "Oh, you've had this for four years. Clearly, there's something to this. We can offer that."Gretchen: So, if I go and I talk to the person at this office and we discuss this, "OK, I think, you know, yeah, maybe you'll have a little extra time on tests, or you need text to speech." How do my professors know this? Do I have to tell them?Jennifer: So, schools may do it different ways. Most schools, they work with you on your schedule because one of the accommodations that you may get is priority scheduling. That's a nice one, too. So, they will work with you on making sure that there are professors are knowledgeable, are able to get these resources. A lot of times the school is working with the professors to say, "Hey, the student is on your roster, and they need this," like they're not going to say what the issue is.Gretchen: OK.Jennifer: That's confidential. Again, disclosure is on the person is not on the people administering the plan. So, they wouldn't say what the issue was. They would say "This is what the student receives."Rachel: Got it. So, I think a lot of students with learning and thinking differences and also sometimes their parents don't even think that post-secondary school is an option. Do some of your students or their families need confidence boosting in this area? And what do you tell them when they come to you with kind of that perspective?Jennifer: We're going to kind of break down some of those, you know, misnomers that might be in their minds about what is possible, what's not possible, and try to break down what the, what's the real hang-up like, what are you worried about? And then backtrack from there and try to figure out what we can do to either ease the fear or work towards a different angle. Maybe they're right. Like, maybe their fear is very real.And we need to do a bit of balancing. And if we still have a family that's feeling unsure about what they want to do, then I'm going to encourage them to look at the community colleges in the area. You may want to maybe take a class, maybe take two classes, but still you're entitled to the services, or especially after the pandemic, we're seeing a lot of students not go directly to college.Like we are seeing students who go off into the world of work and who are joining like real estate because they have an entrepreneurial spirit and that's what's leading them. And like I said, if we're working with the students from ninth grade to 12th grade, we've done an interest inventory and we begin to highlight the areas that the students feel the most confident in or they feel the most connected to and build off of that. And we give them options like, you know, here's a career that needs a little bit of education, needs a little more education, needs lots of education.You know, sometimes you have to say to a student, "You want to be in the medical field, do you want to be in school for eight-plus years? And if you know, that's something you don't want to do. We need to find something else in the medical field that could still give you what you're looking for without maybe that much education. Maybe you can't afford eight years of education." You know, that's the truth, too, you know.Rachel: When you're having that other conversation. So, the non-post-secondary school conversation, but you're talking to the student who says, "I'm going to go get my real estate license" or "I'm going to work in some other capacity," do you talk with them about accommodations at whatever their next stop is going to be?Jennifer: Yeah. So, depending on the size of the company determines whether or not they have to follow the federal mandate. So, that's something that you may want to find out, like before you're interviewing for a space. Again, something that we talk about with students when they're about to go into the world of work.Because don't forget, like jobs, like careers and stuff like that, their responsibility is a little different. The burden isn't placed on the employer, right? They're going to do their best to accommodate you, reasonable accommodation, and that's what they're responsible for. So, let's go down the real estate rabbit hole there, right?So, if you are having open houses, you know, like you need to make a flyer for the open house, but like, that's not something you're, you know, you don't know how to kind of handle that or how to get it and on time like, so maybe you need to do text-to-speech, that might be reasonable. They might be able to have a program that has like text-to-speech. But there are some companies that may not offer that. Those are things you have to consider.It's also interesting because at the high school, we're compelling you to be in classes from 8:00 to 3:00 and do all the classes that we're telling you are necessary to get your high school diploma. When you go to the world of work, you're doing what you want, like in your space of like of your concentrated area. You know, you may find that some of the things that were a burden because you were 8 to 3 with us and us telling you what to do, are no longer so pressing on you because your attention is not divided.You may still need, you know, your desk away from high-traffic areas, right? That might be something that you need to get your job done. But that's easy to do for a job. You know, that's what we have to think about, you know, what's the whole picture of that occupation?Rachel: Mm hmm. Yeah.Gretchen: OK. I think our last question is going to be to ask you about success stories. So, we're wondering if you can share any success stories of students with learning and thinking differences who've come back to visit after graduation and have done a especially good job of navigating the challenges outside of the protective sphere of your school.Jennifer: So, we have had students come back and join even our, you know, the staff, you know, have become educators. We have students that come back and tell us about the store that they opened after they got their business degree. Oftentimes, though — and this is something that, you know, maybe we should have mentioned a little bit earlier, too — we try not to put the time that you should graduate from.Like people will say, "Oh, you should graduate college in four years." Like, I don't really hold to that standard any longer. I think that there are a lot of people for a lot of reasons who don't do college in four years, who do it in five, who do it in six. Sometimes, like, you need to understand what you can handle and maybe you can only handle three classes a semester.And so, you know that it's going to take you a little bit longer. And so, we have students that come back who may have been six years removed and who just got their bachelor's. And that's amazing, you know, like, that's amazing, because you persevered, and your stamina grew and you did what you needed to do so that you could have what you wanted. And it's always amazing, no matter what the story is, we're always excited to hear what our students are doing.Gretchen: Yeah. So, Jennifer, before we wrap up, are there any points that we didn't get to that you'd like to mention here?Jennifer: I think the most important thing that I'd want everybody to know is that you should use your school counselors as a resource. You can rely on your school counselors and your school counselors love your students.Rachel: Well, I think that really came through in this conversation.Gretchen: Thank you so much for joining us today, Jennifer.Rachel: Yes, thank you. This was a great conversation.Jennifer: It's my pleasure.Gretchen: Wow. We just got so many awesome tips from Jennifer. Yes. Before we go, I want to add one more. You know, Jennifer mentioned that colleges are going to want a relatively recent evaluation for incoming students with learning and thinking differences?Rachel: Yeah.Gretchen: Well, Andy, one of our in-house experts, reminded me that if you try to get one of those after your kid has graduated from high school, you're looking at a 6- to 12-month wait and maybe a very steep price tag and one that insurance might not even cover.So, you really, really want to get that evaluation done before your kid graduates. Since schools are obligated to provide an evaluation and they're going to do it at no cost to the family. But here's the catch, you need to get that process rolling early, anywhere from 18 months to two years before your kid graduates.Rachel: Wow. Yeah, that's a great point. And those are free and up-to-date evaluations would probably be important for any graduate with learning and thinking differences to have, even those who are not college bound. So, definitely put that on your to-do list if you have a rising junior.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.

Executive function and learning: Ways to help your child

Kids with executive function challenges can struggle with learning in different ways. Organization and time management can be especially tough. But there are strategies that can help. Explore strategies to try at different ages.

ADHD and messiness (Jeannie’s story)

Jeannie talks through the executive function challenges she faces when she tries to tidy and clean up.Kids and adults with ADHD can have a hard time keeping things tidy. That’s true of Jeannie Ferguson, a plus model in Brooklyn who describes herself as “messy.” Jeannie was diagnosed with ADHD in college — and her wife, Tash, also has ADHD. Jeannie describes in detail what goes on in her brain when she tries to tidy and clean up her home. She shares what led to her ADHD diagnosis, and why as a Black woman she hesitated to get evaluated. And she answers a burning question: What’s it like when two people with ADHD get married?Related resourcesADHD and messinessWhat is executive function?Tools and tips to get organizedEpisode transcriptJeannie: I was in college, and I come across a finance professor and he actually recommended that I go and get tested for ADHD, because I would zone out in his class. I would be writing the grocery list. I would be doing homework from another class. I had no interest in his class. However, him speaking to another professor and, you know, the three of us talking and having a laugh, he asked that professor, what were her grades in your classes? And she said, she'd get A's and A-pluses. But he said, well, she has failed my class for sure. I definitely think you need to go. And I had my reservations about going, because, in the African American community back then during that time, that's not something that you spoke about. And I didn't want that stigma on me that I was crazy, or I was slow, that I didn't know what I was doing or what have you. I put it off for a little while and I finally went and, yeah, the diagnosis was definitely a positive one.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!" — a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Jeannie Ferguson. Jeannie is a plus model who lives in Brooklyn, New York, with her wife, Tash, who also has ADHD. Welcome, Jeannie.Jeannie: Thank you for having me, Laura.Laura: So, Jeannie, you used the word "mess." I think you said, "I'm a mess." Tell me what you mean by that. What does that word mean to you, and how does that relate to your ADHD?Jeannie: So I can never get my home clean all at one time, in a certain amount of time. So I have to start in my bedroom. I'll go, I'll make up my bed. I'll put my shoes back in the box. I'll put all of my clothes, I'll hang them back up, whatever it is, perfume, if it's sitting out or whatever, anything, just putting it in order. I'm dusting, wiping things down. If I step out of my bedroom and go into the bathroom, I know it's time for me to clean the bathroom. So now I am turning on the shower with Ajax in the tub, and I'm taking stuff off of the cabinet. Cause now we're going to clean the cabinet. So now my bedroom is not complete. Because I need to now take the clothes off the bed, even though I made it. But now the clothes that was on the chair is on the bed and has to be put away. I haven't done that yet. I've walked out.My phone may ring. It may not be near me. It may be in the living room. Now I'm in the damn living room. And I'm like, oh, OK, so now I know I have to sweep the carpet. I don't like the vacuum. I like to sweep. I'm going to sweep the carpet. I'm going to polish the wooden table. OK, so I'll start with that. I'll answer the phone, but now that I'm talking, I put it on speaker. Now I'm cleaning that. The bathtub is still running. Let's not forget the bathtub is still running. The clothes are still on the bed, but I've started in the living room. So now the living room is half clean, because I hung up, but now I'm like, oh, I have to go to the bathroom. Now I go to the bathroom. I use the restroom. I'm now moving everything around. I'm washing my hands. Oh, let me clean the tub.The clothes are still there. The living room, I haven't finished sweeping. There are six different piles of dirt in the living room. Then, you know, the couches, I have pillows that I need to fluff those. Oh, wait, I have a coffee cup and a cereal bowl in the kitchen I need to clean. And I usually wipe my stove off or what have you, because this dust or what have you.Oh, so nothing is complete.Laura: Jeannie, that was an amazing walk through your ADHD brain.Jeannie: Oh, yeah. That's at least three times a week, Laura.Laura: You just ran the gamut of almost every executive functioning difficulty that can lead to quote-unquote messiness, and ADHD, like starting and finishing cleanup tasks, paying attention to what you're doing, keeping track of what you're doing, not getting distracted from what you're doing. I mean, that was a journey. I really appreciate you taking me through your house like that. I could visualize every aspect of it.Jeannie: Well, now the weird thing is if my wife has to clean something, she's a carpenter. So she builds things. She will build you a cabinet. She can build you a home. That's what she does. And she deals a lot with the different tools and stuff like that. She will literally sit and her focus is taking each screw and putting it where it belongs. So it may be 50 different screws. She will sit and organize.Laura: Ooh, interesting.Jeannie: And then she'll put that away. Then she'll go to the kitchen cabinets. My kitchen cabinets are in order, honey. Totally in order, she will play Tetris and put things away where I can see everything and I can get everything. That's not how it was for me. As soon as I clean it up, I can't find anything. I'm still looking for a pair of shoes. They're new shoes. I don't know where I put them because I had cleaned the closet.Laura: So it sounds like Tash gets really, like, hyperfocused on the organization aspect of it, which is really interesting. And then there you are, and it's almost like you seem to, you thrive in the clutter, or like, does it bother you?Jeannie: No, it doesn't bother me because I know where it's at. I know that I tried on, literally, I'm telling you what's there now. So my sister and I have a shoot on Sunday. I have an orange sweater that I know I want to use for the shoot. I did not hang it up. I'm not going to fold it. I'm not going to put it in the closet where the rest of the things are. I'm not going to do that, because if I do, I'm not going to find it. I'm going to leave it laying on this chair until I leave out the door on Sunday.Laura: Hey, good strategy if that works for you.Jeannie: I'm OK with the clutter. As soon as everything is spotless, I start to get anxiety because I feel like I lost something. I don't know if I threw it away. Did I throw it away? I don't know if I'm going to be able to find it. Is it there? I don't know. It's really bad. It becomes bad. Sometimes I cry.Laura: You cry, Jeannie?Jeannie: I do. If I have a lot of things going on, I put it in the calendar first and foremost. I have two calendars. So I have one that my wife and I share that I have to put things in there so she'll know to remind me. Because that calendar will remind her to remind me to look at the calendar that I know is going to actually alert me.So it becomes really bad. And just the other day, she's like, "I need to know what's wrong because you're not sleeping." I couldn't sleep because the next day I had a shoot and I had to get everything together. Not, did I not pack? Did I have these shoes, did I not? So I'm up at 4:00 in the morning and the shoot is not until 1 p.m.There is nothing for me to do, but my anxiety gets the best of me. And I'm thinking I'm going to forget something because I'm so used to not being organized that it scares me. So, you know, I cried the other day. I was like, "I don't know what to do."Laura: Yeah. That sounds really exhausting and stressful. There's the aspect of remembering what you need to do and then remembering to do the things that help you remember what you need to do. And it's a lot to manage.Jeannie: It is.Laura: This word "messy" is a really loaded word, right? I think the word "messy" or "messiness" can imply laziness. And we hear that a lot at our organization. Like people write in — parents or people with ADHD — saying, you know, "My kid or myself, I'm not lazy. I want to do this, but I just — I have trouble getting it done." So I'm just curious, like, how do you perceive that word "messy," and what does it mean to you?Jeannie: I sometimes think that I am lazy. I know that I have to do something and it's like, oh, OK. You have to call the studio and, you know, book, the studio. Eh, I'll do it tomorrow. It's messy because you, as an adult, know that you have to handle business. This is your livelihood. You have to do it. But in your mind, it's just like, I can do it tomorrow. But I will get excited if I clean up the mess. If I, on my list — because I also make lists. That's the only way I'm going to get through life is with a list. I learned that. I completed, Laura, a whole list of 10 things in one day. And I was so proud of myself. I was excited. I was on it. I was like, look it, you did a good job. But two days later it was like, OK. So I have to call again. I'll wait until tomorrow.Laura: You don't seem lazy to me at all. It sounds like you have a thriving career. You have a wonderful home life. And just hearing you describe your day to day, whether or not things get done, I can tell that you're either trying or you are getting them done. So, like, you definitely don't seem lazy.Jeannie: But I do feel that way. I feel very lazy. If I know that I don't have to leave out until 1 p.m., if I sit down, I am there until 11:30. I'm not moving. I know I have to answer these emails. Yes, I have to get dressed. Waiting until the last minute sometimes is, it can be bad, as well, thinking "Oh, I got time." And then you look up like, "Oh, I only got 15 minutes," you know, to get out the door, to get to the train on time, or what have you. It seems very lazy at times to me.Laura: I mean, a lot of people with ADHD, myself included, like, I know I get really hard on myself when I feel like I'm not performing to my top potential. And, like, when I can feel my ADHD blockers, like my trouble with organization or trouble getting started on something, I know why I'm unable to get started or to finish something. And I know that it's, like, in some ways it's beyond my control. But I still, I get really down on myself and it's, it's emotional.So, lists. What other kinds of things do you do to cope?Jeannie: Well, besides the lists, I go back to my calendar and look at things that I accomplished. Like, OK, so I know this day I had a one-on-one training, and then at night I had a Zoom and then, you know, I had to meet friends for dinner, and I accomplished all of these things.So this day, Wednesday, the 23rd, I did that. On the 29th, I have to do the same thing. So what did I do? I'll go back and think about how did I start the day. Did I get up early, you know, on your phone, it tracks everything — the time you got up and you started to touch your phone. Oh, so this is the time you was up or what have you. I'll go back and I'll track absolutely everything and go, OK, so I started at this time and I made good time, and I know I had to start an hour and a half earlier than what it takes. So I'll go back and literally look at the things that I've already done.Laura: Oh, that's interesting. That takes a lot of diligence, too. You're looking back at your accomplishments, which hopefully is like a confidence booster as well. Like, you managed to do X, Y, and Z on this day. Now let's replicate it and then continue to improve. So it sounds like a lot of work.Jeannie: It is, it is.Laura: Jeannie, I want to talk about your diagnosis and evaluation journey.Jeannie: So I, because I am a lot older than what you may think. I won't tell, but I am way older. I'll tell you offline. I was in college and I had come across a finance professor and he actually recommended that I go and get tested for ADHD, because there was certain classes that I kept failing. Just, I can't get past this one damn class, for whatever. I just kept failing. Picked up this class again. I got to pay for it. I have to take this damn class to pass. And he said, "Jeannie, I'm serious. I really think that you should go get tested." I'm not thinking that he was serious. African Americans don't go get tested for crazy. We not crazy. We don't do stuff like that. That's in my mind, because that's what I was taught. You don't talk about it. You don't say anything about, you know, the kid might be slow, you know, in learning and will have a learning disability, you know, slow to learn or what have you, may have a learning disability. You don't talk about stuff like that. A lot of times, you know, from my era, they brush it under the rug. But he said, "Jeannie, I really think that you should go and see." I procrastinated for many, many weeks. And I'm like, this man is crazy. There's nothing wrong with me. Until again, taking different tests and doing different things, and realizing that these classes had caught my attention. I am focused. I am here. I can retain all of the info that I need. When it comes to him, I'm not interested in this. Am I even going to use this? And with my degree, like, mister, please. But when I finally thought about it, I said, you know what, let me just go. I'm thinking it would be a blood test. I don't know why. Of course, ignorant to the whole thing, thinking it was a blood test. And they start asking the questions. How do you feel when you — can you complete certain things? That was one. Are you excited when you complete these things or do you feel like, OK, job well done, and you move on to something else? No, I'm excited the whole time, like we focused, this day belongs to me. This is me, you know, the different things that they would ask. Then I realized, like, all of these things are true. Like what the hell? I'm crazy. Crazy. So I was in college when I was diagnosed, but that's how it came about. I didn't tell my mom and my sister, because again, I didn't want the whole stigma of, you know, Jeannie crazy.So I've never told anybody. But now they all know, and they understand my craziness.Laura: Your wife, Tash, also has ADHD. Isn't that right?Jeannie: Yes. The two of us together. I am a mess. She is kinda sort of OCD. My attention span is very short and I feel so bad for her. If we are watching a movie and if I lose interest, it definitely is. When I met Tash, I didn't know that she had ADHD as well.And she was, she was a model as well. And she's from Texas, I'm from New York, and I was there training.Laura: She was a model, and she's a carpenter. Now this is, this is the coolest relationship I think I've ever heard about.Jeannie: Oh yeah. She was a model at first. And I had come down to teach a class, a runway class in Houston, Texas. And she was very hands-on even there. She was building stuff. She was putting stuff together, very handy or what have you. When she and I finally started to talk and get together, I was like, well, let me just tell you this now, because I'm not always focused. And I kept saying, "What? What did you say?" I'm like, "OK, so let me just tell you this, because I said this about 20 times since we've spoken in the last 10 minutes. I have ADHD. I'm not focused on what you're saying right now. I, it's not that it's not important or I'm not engaged in this conversation, but I have about 75 things running over in my head with what I have to do tomorrow. I apologize. I'm all over the place, and you have to learn how to speak Jeannie eventually." And she said, "I understand."What, you understand Jeannie? Because if you don't know how to speak Jeannie, you won't get through any of this. She said, "No, I understand. You have ADHD. I do too." I was like, "Really? Oh my goodness." Then I got a little quiet, Laura, because I was like —Laura: Wait, but that's so exciting. OK. I'm excited though.Jeannie: Like, how the hell is this going to work out? We two crazy-ass people and you have ADHD too. This is going to be one hell of a relationship.Laura: But at the same time, were you also thinking, "Oh, I found my people."Jeannie: Somebody who can understand. Absolutely.Laura: Yeah, because you didn't share it with your family, right, because you were worried about the perception of that. And here you go, you shared, you took a leap, and now, and then you got married.Jeannie: Yes. It was all legal. What are we going to do? We're going to be crazy together for real.Laura: It's all legal now your, our ADHDs are bound together forever.Jeannie: Forever. Till death do us part, we're going to be crazy together.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha!" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash ADHDAha. Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening.

Executive function strategies for your child

Parenting a child who has trouble with executive function can have its challenges. But there are specific strategies and tools that can make everyday life easier for you and your child. Explore the strategies below, focusing on what might work best for your child.

Executive function skills: What are they and how can we help kids build them?

Messy backpacks. Forgotten lunches. Missing assignments. How can we help our kids get organized this school year? Messy backpacks. Forgotten lunches. Missing assignments. How can we help our kids get organized this school year? What strategies can we use to support kids with ADHD and other learning differences? In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra get back-to-school tips from Brendan Mahan, an executive function coach and host of the ADHD Essentials podcast. Brendan explains what executive function skills are — and how we can help kids build them. Learn why we might be asking too much of our kids sometimes, and how to reframe our thinking around these skills. Plus, get Brendan’s tips for helping kids get back into school routines. Related resourcesWhat is executive function? Trouble with executive function at different ages Understanding why kids struggle with organizationEpisode transcriptAmanda: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It." On this podcast, we offer perspective, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences. We talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. I'm Amanda Morin.Gretchen: And I'm Gretchen Vierstra.Amanda: And this episode is for all those folks out there like me saying oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. How is it the start of a new school year already? How is summer over? And I don't know what I'm going to do because my kid doesn't know how to do school anymore.Gretchen: Yes, this transition can be especially stressful for parents of kids with ADHD and other learning differences. Maybe you had your systems down last year, like how to get your backpack organized or where your child does their homework after school. But will your child remember those things? And are those even the systems you need this year?Amanda: That's why we wanted to talk to Brendan Mahan. He's an ADHD and executive function coach. He's also got his own podcast, "ADHD Essentials."Gretchen: All right. Let's dive right in.Amanda: So Brendan, as an executive function coach, I would imagine that this start of the school year is a really busy time for you. What are you hearing from parents as they're facing down the beginning of a new school year?Brendan: It varies. Sometimes it's really specific. Like my kid struggled last year and I'm worried about how they're going to do it this year. Sometimes it's my kid's going into middle school, what do I do? Or my kid's going into high school, what do I do? Or I want my kid to get in a college and it's right around the corner — help. Like that. It's that sort of thing, right? But a lot of what I talk to parents about is like pump the brakes. Like, your kid is going to be OK. The school year hasn't even started that much yet.Amanda: OK. So I want to dig into all of that. But first, could you just explain what we're even referring to when we talk about executive function skills?Brendan: So executive function is the ability to do something, right? It's like the ability to execute. So planning and decision making, being able to correct errors and troubleshoot, being able to navigate it when things change and shift, when expectations are different and being able to handle that adjustment. It's understanding time and our relationship to it. It's sustained attention and task initiation. There's emotional control and self-awareness and self-understanding. It's kind of a broad category. There's a lot hiding underneath it.But it boils down to being able to do the thing. It's those adulting skills that, for one, we don't really expect kids to have yet anyway because it's developmental. But also we want them to have it before they're supposed to have it. And that causes its own sort of challenges.Gretchen: So I wonder, do kids tend to slide in executive function skills over the summer?Brendan: I don't know that they slide. I think the academic context of executive function slide. Sometimes we're still using some of those executive functions during the summer. Sometimes we're using more of some of them. You might have a kid who struggles to keep himself organized at school, right? But he's been playing with Legos all summer long and his Lego organizational skills are on point. And maybe that transfers to the classroom and maybe it doesn't.Summer is often when kids are much more self-directed. They're much more curious and exploratory. There's more space for that. So that stuff is going to grow when it may have slid during the school year, because they didn't get the opportunities that they might get during the summer.Amanda: I'm going to go back to something you said, though, because it piqued my curiosity. We expect kids to have executive function skills before they're developmentally ready for it. Why do we do that? Or how do we stop doing that? Or what should we be doing instead?Brendan: I'll go for all of it. Like, how big of a jerk do you want me to be?Amanda: Realistic. Let's go with realistic.Brendan: The answer to that, and this is me being a jerk, is kids not having executive functioning skills is inconvenient.Gretchen: Right.Brendan: Right? Like it makes our lives harder that they can't follow 10-step directions.Gretchen: Brendan, can you give a kind of a general overview of what skills I should expect of typical kids in like grade school and up? So I'm not asking for things I shouldn't get.Brendan: So breaking it down into, like, elementary school, middle school, and high school. It's at least academically how we break things down. So we should expect elementary school kids to be able to pay attention. But there's high school kids who have trouble with that, right? So like, that's kind of an illustration on executive functioning challenges. But broadly speaking, we're expecting elementary school kids to pay attention, control their behavior and impulses, follow one- to two-step directions, and be able to change their behavior to follow rules as necessary.Amanda: The kindergarten teacher in me is going to pop in here and say, "pay attention" is a really like nebulous one, right? Because when I was teaching kindergarten, it was like, pay attention for 10 minutes was about as much as they could could do, right? So I just want to caveat and say, yes, pay attention. I also think about how old the kid in front of you is, for how long they can pay attention.Brendan: True. And absolutely like 10 minutes for a kindergarten kid, and sort of add a few minutes per grade level kind of thing. But also, what does "pay attention" mean? Right? I'm really glad you called that out. Because for some teachers, "pay attention" means sitting with their back against the back of the chair and their legs against the bottom of the chair and their hands folded on their desk and looking at the teacher and — and like, I did that in school. And I did not know what was going on. Because my imagination is way cooler than anything my teacher had to say.Amanda: It may be time to narrate for our listeners that Brendan is standing up as he records, and I'm sitting a swivel chair and swiveling back and forth. Yet we are still paying attention.Gretchen: We're paying attention. So then what about middle schoolers that I know Amanda and I have.Brendan: And I do, too. Yeah. For the middle school kids, we want them to start to show that they can think in order to plan an action. We want them to be able to plan ahead to solve problems, even. Right? Like this is a problem that I might encounter when I do my social studies project or whatever. We want them to be able to follow and manage a daily routine. So an elementary school kid not knowing where they're going on a given day? We might not worry about that too much. Middle school kids, we start to go, oh, wait a minute, you should know what's happening. I want to caveat this, though, because some middle school schedules are a nightmare.Gretchen: A day, B day, short day.Brendan: Yeah. We also for middle school kids, we want to see them beginning to develop this skill of being able to modify their behavior across changing environments. Do we expect to see this because it's developmentally appropriate? Or do we expect to see this because that's how middle school works and it's necessary that they can? I don't know.Gretchen: It makes me think I'm asking too much.Amanda: Makes me think I'm asking too much, too.Brendan: Yeah. One of the things that I often talk about with my clients, with my coaching groups, is when a kid is struggling, we want to wonder: Is it the fish or is it the water? Right? Like, is this kid struggling because there's something going on with them? Or is it the kid's struggling because there's something going on with the environment that they're in? Probably it's both. And oftentimes we focus on the fish instead of looking at the water. So I tend to champion like, let's address the environment that the kid's in.Amanda: As a parent staring down the school year, what do I do right now to start bolstering those skills?Brendan: So if school hasn't started yet, I might be talking about things we can do during the summer to kind of get ourselves squared away so that the beginning of school goes more smoothly, right? Start going to bed a little bit earlier now, so that when school starts and you have to go to bed a lot earlier, you can make that transition more effectively. Or give your kids like a few more responsibilities for the time being, so that when school starts, you can take those extra responsibilities away and replace them with the school responsibilities that are coming. Which doesn't mean they should be writing essays at home. It just means that they should be doing a little bit more in terms of chores or something, so that they're used to not being as relaxed and on as much screen time as they were in the summer.And if school is already started, then it's like trust the teacher, right? Like let's communicate with the teacher. Let's find out what it is that they're doing in their classroom. Are they seeing challenges or red flags already for your kid, or maybe orange flags? Is there anything we need to be on top of right now? So don't wait until the problem happens, like solve the problem in advance instead of solving it after things have gone haywire. And pivoting really quick, because one thing I didn't do is I didn't talk about high school.Gretchen: Oh, yeah. High schools.Brendan: So emerging skills in high school: We expect them to start to be able to think and behave flexibly. We also want to see them begin to organize and plan projects and social activities. Now, social activities, yes. But like, why do they have to be able to organize and plan projects? Because that's how high school works, right? And that skill has been building since middle school, maybe even since late elementary school. But now we're starting to expect more independence and it should be an easier process.We also want to see them adapt to inconsistent rules. And it happens in lots of ways, right? Like I just left English class and now I'm in math class and I can't shut up because I was talking a lot in English and it was fine because we were doing group projects and now it's a solo thing in math, right? That's hard. But we start to expect that. Yeah, you have like three-minute hallway time and then you got to be ready to go behaving totally different for a new subject.Gretchen: That three-minute time is like, I've got to say, as a teacher, even I had trouble switching, right? You're going from one class to the next and there's no downtime to readjust. That's tough.Brendan: Yeah, but that's time on learning, right? That's like you've got to be learning, learning, learning. Which is silly, because we know we need time for our minds to wander in order to cement that learning and sort of lock it in. And if we don't give kids any time that's downtime to have their minds wander and be a little spacey, they're not going to be able to anchor in that learning as effectively as they might otherwise.Amanda: Well, I will say that as a parent of kids who have ADHD, I have often been the parent who was like, you don't have to go do your homework right away. And I know that that's sort of antithetical to like all what a lot of people say. You know, come home from school, do your homework, get it done, then do your other stuff. But my kids weren't ready to. They needed that time to sort of breathe or let their brains breathe or whatever they needed to do. We can have the homework station all put together, but it doesn't mean we have to put the kid at the homework station the minute they walk in the door.Gretchen: Right.Brendan: Right. And how much of that is coming from your own anxiety?Gretchen: Just get it done, man. Go to that seat and do it, right?Amanda: OK, so what's the conversation sound like if I am trying to get my kid in the game, get their head in the game, and not put my anxiety on them? What's that conversation sound like?Brendan: A lot of that conversation is happening inside of you and doesn't need to be shared with them, right? Like, because you got to work on your own stuff before you can have this conversation. You have to figure out what is it about, in this case, homework, and doing it as soon as I get home, or is having my kid do it as soon as they get home. What is it about that that makes it so important to me? It might be that transitions with your kid are wicked hard and you don't want to have another transition. You don't want to have to battle them to come and do homework at 5:00. So it's easier to avoid that battle because they're kind of still in school academic mode. So you can at least get them into it better.And that might be because you're doing it wrong in terms of what activities you're having them do before they do homework. Screen time is not a plan before homework, unless you know you can trust your kid to pull out of that screen and go into homework. If there's ever a battle around getting out of screen time, then they need to do something else before they do their homework.Gretchen: Yeah. That brings me to a related question, Brendan, which is sometimes kids have it together executive function wise, especially when they love something, right? But when they don't like something, all of a sudden I see the skills go away. And I wonder, OK, are they struggling or is it that they're just choosing to not have those skills in that moment because they don't want that for that thing?Brendan: When we're talking about kids, it is never useful to decide that they're choosing to not do or do anything. Because all that does is vilify the kid and make us, as parents, feel more justified in being meaner to them. Instead, we always want to assume that our kid is doing the best they can. And we always want to assume that they are trying to do well and want to please us. Those are my fundamental assumptions at all times. And have I screwed up? Yes. There was a period of time when my kid was struggling, like a lot of kids right now. Post-COVID, there's a lot of anxiety stuff going on with kids.My kid is one of them, man. And I was wrapped up in my own anxiety as a result of his anxiety, and I wasn't thinking as clearly. And we started battling. And we had one particular rough battle that my wife got caught in and I sat down on a bed. I can still see it. I can see myself sitting on the bed and going, I'm doing it wrong. Like we should not be battling. This is not the relationship I've had with my kid for the last 13 years. What am I doing wrong?And I literally went through in my head the slides of the parent groups that I run. And I hit this one slide that is like everyone is doing the best they can. Your kids want to please you. They want to succeed. And if those things don't feel true, it's because there's a skill set that's missing or there's a resource that they don't have that they need. And I was like, he's doing his best, and his best is not up to my standards. And that's because something else is going on. I knew what that something else was. It was the anxiety stuff that's going on. And I was just like, oh, the skill set that he's missing is the anxiety management skills that he needs.But it wasn't that he couldn't do the stuff that I want him to do. It was that he couldn't manage his anxiety. And the only reason I started banging heads with him was because I was so anxious that I couldn't bring the skills that I usually have to bear to navigate the challenges that he was facing and help him out. So it makes sense. It happened to both of us at the same time, and that's why we were banging heads. And our relationship changed from that day forward.Amanda: I'm going to push, though, a little bit, because I really I'm super curious about the kids who say to us, like, I'm just not feeling it. Like, is there something below that, you think?Brendan: What's below when you're not feeling it? Like there's times when we're not feeling it either, right? And there's something below that, too. Sometimes it's I haven't slept well for a week, and I'm just done. I don't have the mental capacity to do this. Sometimes it's I haven't moved my body in like a month and a half and that's affecting my get-up-and-go. Sometimes it's I'm chock-full of anxiety because someone in my house has a chronic illness or I'm afraid of COVID or or my parents are getting divorced or whatever, right?There's all kinds of reasons why kids might not feel it. And if they say, I'm just not feeling it, there's two really good responses. One is cool, then you don't have to do it. Like figure out when you can. Give me an idea when you might be able to do this, and we'll do it then. The other answer is, I totally hear you that you're not feeling it and I get it. I can tell that you're not feeling it, but unfortunately you still got to do it. How can I help you get this done?Gretchen: I like that language.You brought up not wanting to battle your child and none of us want to battle our child. But in thinking about going back to school, we might be getting feelings from last year of oh my gosh, the backpack was so disorganized. Oh my gosh, why didn't you bring home your homework assignments? So how can we start off the year better, but get some of those basic skills under control?Brendan: So I have some videos on "How to ADHD," Jessica McCabe's YouTube channel, on my Wall of Awful model. That is exactly what we're talking about right now. The idea behind the Wall of Awful is that — I'll do like a two-second thing. Watch the video. It's like 14 minutes of your life. The gist of the Wall of Awful is that, like, we have certain stuff that we do that we fail at or struggle with. And as a result, we get these negative emotions built up around that task. And we have to navigate those negative emotions before we can do the thing.So if we've battled with our kid about school a lot, as school comes back up, we have a Wall of Awful for navigating school as much as they do. So we get in a fight and argue about stuff. Just put your shoes on, or whatever. And sometimes it's that petty, right? Like we're yelling at our kid to put their shoes on, even though they have 10 minutes before they even have to get on the bus. And it's not about the shoes. It's about all of the battles we've had about school for the last seven years or whatever.So to get ahead of that, talk to your kids before school starts about how you have conflict when school starts. And ask them, like, what do you notice about this conflict? What do you need for me to help avoid this conflict? Or this is what I need from you to help avoid this conflict. What do you need from me to help give me what I need, right?Because that's what parenting boils down to. Parenting boils down to what does my kid need from me in order to be better? So whenever I have a conflict with my kid or my kid is struggling, I'm always asking them, like, what do you need from me? And sometimes what they need from me is for me to intentionally give them nothing so that they can figure it out on their own. Sometimes that's what I'm giving, is like independence.But if that doesn't work, I need to be ready, like a safety net with, like, other stuff, right? Like, oh, you also need me to, like, bust out a timer and remind you that those are useful. Or break this task into smaller, more manageable chunks. Or, as I had to do for one of my kids recently, text the dad of one of their friends that he wanted to hang out with, because he just didn't have it in him to text his friend. And we had that conversation. I was like, cool, then I'll text the dad. Not a big deal.Amanda: Sometimes my kid doesn't know. My kid's like I don't know what I need from you. So as parents, having those examples of what you can then say: Is it this? Is it this? Is it this? What else would you add to that list?Brendan: First I would add if the kid says "I don't know," say to them, "You don't need to know. I don't want the answer to this question right now. I can, like, take a few hours, take a day." Because when we put a kid on the spot, anxiety spikes, executive functions shut down. They don't know. But if we give them some thinking time and some grace, then they can come back later and tell us stuff. Or maybe not. Maybe they come back an hour later and they're like, I still have no idea.Then we start giving them examples — examples that are informed by what we already know about our kid. Do you need me to get some timers? Do you want to sit down with me and I can body-double you while you work on this? I got some knitting to do, or I have to pay the bills. Like we can sit at the kitchen table, you can work on your thing, I can work on my thing. Do you want help breaking this down into small, manageable chunks? I know sometimes you struggle with that a little bit. Would it be useful to maybe call up Sally and have Sally come over or do a Zoom with you and you guys can work on this together? Would that be helpful? Like, and something else that you thought of, because I am running out of ideas? Like, what do you think?Amanda: So we're all about executive functioning today, which always includes time management. And Brendan, I know you said you had somewhere to be. So I just want to thank you so much for sharing all of these insights and advice with us today.Gretchen: Yes, thank you so much, Brendan. So much for us to think about.Brendan: Thank you for having me.Gretchen: Brendan has lots more to share with families who are working on building their executive function skills. Go to ADHDEssentials.com. That's where you can also find his "ADHD Essentials" podcast.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Amanda: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Gretchen: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Gretchen: Thanks for listening and for always being in it with us.

Dyslexia Was No Match for My Daughter’s Love for Soccer

“Mom, can I still play soccer if I’m dyslexic?”That’s one of the first questions my daughter Jocelyn asked me after she was diagnosed with dyslexia in fourth grade.I’d expected her to ask about school or reading. But instead she asked about soccer—the thing in life that she loved the most.Jocelyn started playing soccer around the same time we learned that she has dyslexia. (She also has dysgraphia and executive functioning issues.) She was having a lot of difficulty in school, especially with learning how to read. Soccer seemed to help her through those tough times.If it was a good day at school, she’d come home and ask for a snack with a smile.But if school went poorly, as it often did, she’d come home in a darker mood and head straight to the backyard. Sometimes, she’d kick the soccer ball against the house. Or she'd try to get the dog to play soccer with her. Either way, it was pretty clear she needed to burn off steam, and soccer was the way she did it.When she was done, she’d finally come inside and do her homework. It still wasn’t easy, but after she’d kicked the ball around, she was willing to put in the work for school.As a mom, I think I instinctively understood how important soccer was in her life. I felt like it was my job to make certain she continued to play the game she loved.The funny thing is, I never planned on soccer being such a big part of her life (or mine). I’ve never played soccer. Truth be told, I don’t even really understand the rules to this day!But soccer was her passion. It gave her the motivation to keep moving forward.So I became a soccer mom. I traveled around the state (and later the country) with her to games. When she moved from recreational play to an elite soccer club, I supported her all the way. I watched as she played on an Olympic developmental team.There were times when I was tempted to say that I would take away soccer if she didn’t do her homework. But I don’t think that would have been a good choice. When I had those thoughts, I reminded myself that when she shined on the soccer field, it made her shine a little more off the field as well.Soccer was the one place where she was simply Jocelyn the goalkeeper. No other labels applied.To me, it doesn’t matter what passions children want to pursue as long as it’s healthy and good for them. It can be making cookies or singing in the choir—or even origami.The son of one of my close friends has learning and thinking differences, and he’s passionate about origami. Every holiday or birthday, I know I’ll get an amazing origami from this boy. My friend once shared with me that her son can handle more at school because he says he’s “the best origami creator in the state.”The important thing for kids like my friend’s son and Jocelyn is that when they’re doing what they love, their learning and thinking differences don’t matter.This year, Jocelyn, graduated from high school with a 3.7 GPA. She won the 2016 Allegra Ford Thomas Scholarship from Understood founding partner the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD). She’s headed to college in Washington state to study sports management. At school, she’ll also intern with the Seattle Reign, a professional women’s soccer team.Jocelyn has succeeded because she got the right services, supports and accommodations in school. But I know soccer also played a big role. Her life is so much more than her dyslexia diagnosis, and soccer is an important reason why.Want to learn more about April and her daughter Jocelyn? Watch this video about their visit to Washington, DC, to testify about dyslexia.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.

The real-world benefits of gaming for kids

Many kids and teens love to play video games. Are there benefits or risks to playing video games for kids who learn differently?Many kids and teens love to play videos games. But families often worry about the effects of gaming. How long should kids play for? Which games should they play? And are there benefits or risks to playing video games for kids who learn differently? In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra get answers from digital play expert and child psychologist Dr. Randy Kulman. Listen in to hear Randy’s tips on how families can help kids maximize learning from popular video games — and transfer that learning to the real world. Plus, hear Randy’s thoughts on EndeavorRX, a prescription video game for kids with ADHD. Related resources6 surprising benefits of video games for kids  How to choose video games and apps for your childLearning Works for Kids And check out Randy’s book: The Gaming Overload Workbook: A Teen's Guide to Balancing Screen Time, Video Games, and Real LifeEpisode transcript Amanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood.org. And I'm also a parent of kids who learn differently. Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And this is "In It."Amanda: "In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. On the show, we talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. We offer perspective, stories, and advice for, from, and by people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences. Gretchen: Today we're talking about gaming — as in video gaming — and whether or not it can help our kids with some of those learning differences Amanda just mentioned.Amanda: And we're going to get into some exciting developments in the world of digital games that are specifically designed to help with ADHD.Gretchen: Joining us to talk about this is Dr. Randy Kulman. Randy is a child psychologist who's worked with children, teens, and families for over 30 years and is an expert on the use of digital technologies for improving thinking skills in kids.Amanda: Randy is also a writer. He's a speaker, and he's the founder and president of LearningWorks for Kids, which offers training, video game reviews, and learning resources to make digital games good for kids. Gretchen: He's based in Rhode Island — yay, my home state! And we're delighted to have him on the podcast today. Randy, welcome to "In It."Randy: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited about being here. Gretchen: So before we get into the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to gaming, I wonder if you could tell us a bit about your work. Who comes to see you in your practice and how does that tie into your work on digital tech and video games?Randy: So if I can, let me even give you a bit of history from before I started working with kids directly. I was an undergraduate at the University of Rochester.Amanda: My alma mater.Randy: Oh, I didn't know that. Well, I also had a chance to spend time with Dr. David Elkind, who is one of the leading developmental psychologists in the world. He was an incredible mentor. And his expertise is in children's play. And I've always been super interested in children's play. And back in the 1990s when I started my clinical practice, kids would come into my office, all these kids with ADHD and learning disabilities and to some degree spectrum disorders, but particularly the first two. And the parents would be talking about all the troubles that the kids have, all the difficulties they would have.And then, I started to notice, and then — back in the '90s is when some of the original console games were out. The Nintendo, the Atari was around, and the kids loved those games and technology. And I began hearing, even at that point: "My kid couldn't have ADHD. You should see how much they play with a video game. They can focus and concentrate on that fpr hours. In fact, I can't get them off of it." It really got me thinking about how can we use that — gaming — because one of the things I learned from Dr. Elkind was "Play is learning." This is how kids learn. How could we use that to help these kids? Fast-forwarding, I worked in my clinical practice. We started doing some stuff in the practice. We began using a game called RollerCoaster Tycoon in the early 2000s as a game to teach kids problem-solving. Basically we're doing group therapy, playing RollerCoaster Tycoon. I'm not sure how successful we were. I do remember one thing, that l=kids love to build roller coasters that would end in the middle of the year and people would die falling from the roller coaster. And they were good at it.And by the way, that uses a lot of planning. You have to use some planning skills. You have to be a little bit flexible in terms of how you design it. You have to do a bunch of things. So they were using the skills. And that's sort of where we got going. At some point, shortly thereafter, we developed our LearningWorksforKids.com website that was designed to essentially help parents understand how gaming might help their kids — to find games that practice some of these executive functioning skills and what they could do about it. Gretchen: I'm wondering, before we move on from your history, Randy, do you play games?Randy: So, whenever I'm giving talks, one of the first things I say is: Here's my disclaimer. I am not a gamer. I'm really interested in children's play. And that's really kind of my focus is. And what I'm really interested in is how do we make children's play into real learning? Because if you think about this, many of these kids that we see with learning disabilities and ADHD who play a lot of video games — and perhaps they're almost drawn to those games because it's something that they're good at. It's something that makes them feel good when they're paying attention. It feels good to pay attention, to be really focused, to be in the flow. But if gaming was so good for those kids, why are they coming to my office? Why aren't they learning all these skills? Why is that not happening from playing those games? And I think that that's kind of an important question to take a look at and to determine: can we leverage or use those games to help these kids.Amanda: There's been sort of a lot of buzz in the, well, in the circles that we inhabit, right? About this game called EndeavorRX. And it's that FDA-approved treatment for ADHD. Can you tell us about EndeavorRX, what you know about it, and who's supposed to use it, who can prescribe it and how it works?Randy: So, Endeavor is really designed to improve focusing skills and control of focus. And it's essentially a game that uses sensory and motor feedback to help the kids improve their attention — that challenges them to use those skills. I would say that we're still in the infancy with Endeavor. Another game that I think is really good is called Mightier. Now, if I could say one thing that I think is super important about this stuff, is Endeavor and Mightier, and there are other ones out there as well, but those two games in particular start off from the premise of "Let's make this fun." Because if you don't make it fun, the kids aren't going to do what they need to do. I mean, you learn because you pay attention and you focus. If you don't pay attention, you can't learn. You can't remember. And both of these companies started off with game developers and they said, how do we make fun, engaging games? Because that's what they're competing against to keep kids' attention. You got to make this fun because otherwise it's not gonna matter.Gretchen: Right. Kids will feel like it's meant to teach something rather than "I'm going to play" — and learn at the same time — if it's not fun. Randy: Yeah. Well, I think that's part of it. Although maybe I have a little bit more faith in kids in the sense of, we can say to them, this is fun and you're going to learn, OK? What we're trying to do at LearningWorks for Kids is we try to make games digitally nutritious. You can make healthy things into something good. And I think you can tell kids that. In fact, I actually believe that that's probably one of the things that we don't do well enough is that part of helping kids to improve these skills — is to work on the metacognitive component. To think about what they're doing in a game, then think about how that might help them in the real world, too. That's kind of the premise of what I do with all of our LearningWorks materials. We basically use one simple ditty. We say you need to be able to detect, reflect, connect. So you have to identify a skill, think about that skill, and then connect it to the real world. And so I think we can tell kids, when it comes to, for example, Mightier or Endeavor, the kids know, you know, Endeavor is being prescribed. "My pediatrician or a psychiatrist is prescribing it for me," but this is good medicine. This is the kind of medicine you want to take, if you will.Amanda: I'm wondering a little bit about non-prescription video games. So like, thinking about popular ones like Minecraft and Fortnite and Roblox, and that's about where I can land, because I don't know any of the names of the other ones. Are there any that stand out to you as being really good for that metacognitive, that thinking about thinking for kids who learn differently?Randy: Absolutely. It's funny that you mentioned that. So Minecraft, Roblox, another one that's pretty popular now is called Animal Crossing. Those are three of the main games where we kind of use that to teach kids these skills while we're playing the games. One of the concerns that I have about video gaming and kids is that the kids don't play the game and immediately generalize what they've learned in the game to the real world. And that's the key for learning any place. I mean, if you go to a classroom and the teacher teaches you some math facts, but you can't go and measure something when you leave the classroom or you can't apply it in some ways, it's not that helpful.It's it's, this is really all about generalization. It's, you know, how do you learn something in one setting and apply it to another setting? It's really the key to it. And the way that oftentimes happens is that people work to teach kids. What goes on when it comes to video games — and Amanda, I'm going to pick on you for a minute, OK?Amanda: Absolutely. Randy: You sure? I don't know if you'll talk to me after this, OK? How old are your kids? Can I ask that on a podcast? Amanda: Oh yeah — 25, 19, and 11.Randy: OK. So first of all, you're too young for a 25-year-old. OK. Amanda: I'm going to talk to you again for sure.Randy: So let's put that out on the table, OK? But the 11-year-old, OK? I would say to you that it's important for you to play some of those games with your 11-year-old or sit with — is it a boy or a girl?Amanda: He's a boy. He has ADHD. I do sit with him and he tells me all about what he's doing.Randy: Excellent. Then I'm wrong, because by getting him to tell you what he's doing is really also an opportunity for you to help with that metacognitive process — to kind of think about that stuff.And I think that what's happened with video games in particular, is that, you know, a certain generation of parents, maybe the next generation that's coming out will do this, but an older generation didn't play the games cause they didn't know the games. The kids were the experts in the games. They kind of stayed away from that.I mean, when my kids were growing up, I coached him in baseball. I talked to them about baseball. We would do that kind of stuff. If you played board games, you would do that kind of stuff. That's traditional parenting is sort of teaching kids. If they get frustrated after losing a game, you talk to them about that.But I think when it comes to video games that parents have been far less involved. Now some of that is because of the nature of video games and sitting, staring at a screen. But I think that that's become one of the reasons that kids don't learn so much though, because we don't have parents engaged and involved.Amanda: Well, I will say though, that it took me a while to realize that what he wanted me to do was to listen to him, talk it through, right? And I know a lot of parents will say to me, like, I don't understand why they're telling me everything that's going on in the game as they're doing it. It took me a while to read, realize he wants feedback. He's looking to figure out, like, what do I think of this? What, you know, what — he's into, like a lot of the LEGO city games where he builds the things and then he, you know, navigates them and he'll say, you know, do you think this will work? Or do you think this won't work? And, you know, I realized he wasn't just saying it to talk out loud. But I think that's such an important thing is to realize that you don't have to play it to be engaged with them. Gretchen: Yeah. Randy, you know, since Understood supports people who learn and think differently, we want to ask some questions about specific learning challenges and how games might help — or might make them worse. So I think Amanda is cuing up the first question.Amanda: You know, I think I may have already asked, but I'm going to ask it a different way. Those games like Minecraft and Roblox and Animal Crossing, do they have a way of supporting visual-spatial planning, that ability to look at things, understand where they fit in space, and that kind of thing? Cause I know that that's something that parents worry about when they talk to us. Is this helping or not helping?Randy: I'm not a hundred percent convinced that there's any great research out there to say that. However, I also have no doubt whatsoever that that's what's going on. Because I mean, you know, some people have referred to Minecraft as LEGOs on steroids, if you will.And I can tell you from thousands of interviews, when I see kids who have visual-spatial strengths at least, if I say to the parents, you know, after I'm going over a testing evaluation kind of information with them, and I say, oh, your child's got really strong visual-spatial skills. I'll say, does he or she like playing with LEGOs?And the answer is yes, yes, yes, almost always. And the kids who struggle with that don't do as well, OK? Now what happens is, again, like anything else, you avoid things that you're not as good at, but I think that because some of these things are a little bit more engaging, it does offer that opportunity for kids to practice some of those skills that they might struggle with otherwise.And certainly Minecraft is designed like that and there's lots and lots of other building games. One of the games that a lot of the kids that we see and we've actually done some classes on it, was called Terraria. They like that game as well. So there's a lot of those games where they're, they're building work things in the world and developing that and they have to think it out.Gretchen: So what about kids who get stuck or perseverate? Are there games that can be either helpful or harmful for that?Randy: Both. So, I mean, the most common thing that I hear from parents when they're complaining about their kids' video games is that they get stuck and they won't get off the game. Now it's interesting. Some of the research on kids with ADHD going back into the mid 2000, 2005, 2010, those years, suggested that kids who don't have attention problems are far more likely to give up playing and get done when their parents tell them to, whereas compared to about 90% of kids with ADHD struggle with that. So they are far more likely to get stuck in terms of the transitions. However, it's an incredible opportunity to teach flexibility, because almost by nature, any of the good video games require that you sort of die or you lose a life, or you kind of have to go back to the beginning and you have to then use a different strategy to be successful.That's how the games teach you — the good games teach you how to play the game not by giving you a set of instructions. Like you can't go get a set of instructions and say, OK, how do you play this video game? You just play it. And you say, oh, that didn't work. I got to do something differently. Now do the kids take that and do they internalize that? Some do. Many don't. Could we help some of those who aren't doing it to internalize that? That's our belief at LearningWorks. You know, we really think that that's one of the things that parents should be doing is they should be saying, well, what'd you do then? I know you got frustrated last week with something. Did you get past that? Yeah. Well, what did you do? And it's really an opportunity to teach kids. And then by the way, then the real thing we have to do is say, "And how can you do that in the real world? See if you can kind of connect that to something in the real world." So, I don't know if I answered your question.Gretchen: You did. And the fact that you're saying perhaps these games can help with things like confidence and perseverance, but you have to be talking about it and think of a way to pull it out of the game, right? Amanda: Well, and the sentence starters matter too, right? Like what you're giving us, Randy, as some of those questions that parents can ask that they may not think about asking. And I think that makes a big difference too. One of the things that I know a lot of teenagers — my older son, who is a teenager, he's very much into these MMOGs, right? The massively multiplayer online games. I worry that it makes him more socially isolated, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong and it's actually supporting his social skills.Randy: Oh man. I'm so glad you asked because I know all the answers — not. So here's my take on that, is that it's an opportunity to socialize in a different way. And keep in mind, look how we're socializing right now in some ways, OK? And in the future, that's going to be part of socialization. I love to encourage kids who are doing that kind of stuff to do it with kids that are local — to be playing those games with kids who are in their high schools, kids who they're going to see in some other setting, even if it's just a couple of them.I think that that makes a world of difference because now they have someone they could sit with at lunch and they can talk about the same thing they were talking about when they were online. So to the degree that you can make that happen. There are also a lot of skills that kids learn in terms of leadership skills. Harvard Business Review did an incredible study on people who were World of Warcraft players and found that the people who were Guild leaders there were actually better trained to become business leaders than people who went and got their MBAs. So I do think that's the case, but it also never then helps the kids sort of overcome that face-to-face sort of anxiety issues and things like that. And I would say to you that probably when it comes to gaming in general, the most important part of thinking about this stuff is to think about it from the perspective of balance. The thing that I am proudest of in terms of all the stuff I've written about and developed is this concept of what I call a play diet. What's a healthy play diet in today's world, OK? And a healthy play diet in today's world includes certainly a lot of physical play, being outside, exercising, social play, doing stuff with other people, opportunities for unstructured or creative play.But also, you need to have digital play in there. If you don't, it's actually problematic. There's been a series of studies by a guy by the name of Andrew Przybylski and a few other people that basically says playing an hour of video games a day is probably pretty healthy for you. Playing three hours or more is probably pretty unhealthy for you. But maybe even more fascinating is not playing at all is pretty unhealthy for you as well, because it's how kids connect. So, if that's all your child does, that's probably not healthy because it's just not balanced. Gretchen: So, during the pandemic, I know a lot of kids turned to video games. And my 11-year-old daughter did, and it was a way for her to socialize because she'd be chatting with her friends, sometimes separately on like a hangout thread while they're playing or sometimes in the game.But she was anxious about the world, right? Lots of kids were at that time. And the game started making her more anxious because she couldn't stop thinking about, well, are my friends on, am I missing it? Oh, are they earning more points? Oh, how can I get this token? Oh, wait Mom, I need money. I want to buy this thing. So, what do you say about kids with anxiety and games? How do those two go together?Randy: Yeah, the fear of missing out is huge. And actually I would connect that less to gaming and more to the social media component of it as well. That, that social part, where that's really a remarkable area if you think about it. I see more 8-, 9-, 10-year-old girls who are in the kinds of things that we used to see with teenagers in terms of their peers and the social kinds of stresses and the clicks and feeling removed from that. So, yeah. And you're absolutely right too. When you look at the data on anxiety, in terms of what we've seen during COVID compared to pre-COVID, it's crazy. I think I saw something recently, the data was something like 41% of teens reported some signs of anxiety during COVID compared to typically about 11%. And I think part of that is also how do we help kids with anxiety in general? And part of that is, again, I'll go back to the healthy play diet. Kids with anxiety need to be exercising. They need to be doing other things. Cause I just think sometimes, think about treating anxiety solely as putting somebody in therapy and maybe give them medication. That's not the long view approach to that. Yeah.Gretchen: Maybe games that make you get up and move.Amanda: Dance Dance Revolution.Randy: Well, yeah, there aren't as many of those as they used to be, but there are those, and I think we're going to see more and more of that with virtual reality. Cause that's kind of the next phase of what's going to go on with gaming. And with virtual reality, I mean, you could really be boxing and you can do all kinds of movement. I'm waiting for a really good tennis game so I can start playing. Cause then I'll be a gamer. I keep looking all the time for a new game that is realistic tennis so I can go in my basement — instead of getting on my exercise bike and just peddling, I'm actually kind of moving and doing things.Amanda: Randy, I'm going to ask you another question — knowing this is a question I'm sure you get a lot and that the answer is nuanced. Are there games out there that you think we should really limit kids' exposure to?Randy: Well, I do not like violent video games and that's part of me personally, but I also think that if we can assume that you can learn something from playing video games that's positive, might we assume that she could learn some negative things. Now the data does not say that you play violent video games and you'll become violent. But I do think it can desensitize kids. And I do think that that can have a negative impact upon relationships. Maybe some of why some of the meanness that's in society nowadays could be related to it. I don't know. That's a stretch. So, I don't know if I want to be quoted on that one. But the bigger piece to that, though, is a lot of younger kids. I can't tell you how many 5- and 6-year-olds I have who are playing Fortnite. And normally I don't tell parents what to do, OK? I try very hard to kind of work with them. But I very clearly will say to them, "I really don't think that your 6-year-olds should be playing Fortnite. It's a very violent game." And probably this is my being a non-gamer is there are probably games that if I really knew about in more detail, I would kind of like really be saying to you, no, no, no to these. But, but I'm guessing that those games are fitting into violence or racism, sexism, those kinds of things.I'm not as familiar with those kinds of games. I know they're out there. So like the Call of Duty games, for example. They're really exciting for the kids. They love playing them. And I think if a teenager wants to play them with their friend after school, that's probably fine. They're old enough also to know the difference between fantasy and reality. And the kids who don't, they're going to have problems wherever they're at.Gretchen: So let's look ahead a little. Let's look into your crystal ball, Randy. You know, what do you see in the future in terms of how we're going to think about the role of digital games in our kids' development and how we design them? Randy: Well, let me veer off for a second, OK, if I can. I think that in many ways, a smartphone could be a person with ADHD's best friend. If it's used properly. One of the things that I'm very, very interested in is kids who struggle with writing. I am such a big believer that we are doing a horrible job of teaching kids how to use dictation skills. They're talking all the time, whether they're online talking to their friends or whether they're talking to Siri, everything's going to be like that. They need to learn how to use dictation for example. So part of the future, I think, is going to be that we start to accept this as just kind of what it is. We do a lot of stuff at LearningWorks about finding apps that support weak executive functioning skills. And I think that all these technologies can do that and in a much easier fashion than some of the video games. Cause I think the video game piece is a little bit more indirect. I look at it like, well, you can walk to school and it's three miles away. It takes you an hour. You can ride your bike to school and it's three miles away and it takes you 15 minutes. Why do we not use technologies to help these kids? Especially — I have another particular interest with kids with slow processing speed. I'm actually working on a book on that because there's a lot of video games out there that actually can help a little bit with that. But there's a lot of technologies that can help a lot with that. So those are some of the things I think we're going to be moving towards in the future.Amanda: Well, I mean, this has just been such a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Randy. I really appreciate it. Gretchen: Really interesting. I've learned a lot, you know, just for my own knowledge at home, but also for the world and for our kids. So thank you so much.Randy: Well, you're quite welcome. This is really fun for me. This is kind of what I really enjoy doing.Gretchen: Dr. Randy Coleman is the author of a bunch of books, including most recently "The Gaming Overload Workbook: A Teen's Guide to Balancing Screen Time, Video Games, and Real Life." To find out more about Randy's work on maximizing children's learning from popular video games and interactive digital media go to LearningWorksforKids.com.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Gretchen: Share it with the parents you knowAmanda: Share with somebody else who might have a child who learns differently.Gretchen: Or just send a link to your child's teacher.Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need.Gretchen: Go to u.org/init to find resources from every episode.Amanda: That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash in it. And please share your thoughts. Email us at init@understood.org. We'd love to hear from you.Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are production directors. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.

“I thought I was just quirky.” Plus, ADHD accommodations at work (Mananya’s story)

Mananya Komorowski thought she was just a quirky leader. Then her grief counselor recommended she get tested for ADHD.Executive Mananya Komorowski has been described as “brilliant but chaotic” and “unlike any other executive.” Mananya thought she was just quirky, until she found out she has ADHD.Over the last few years, Mananya has experienced a lot of loss. A number of her loved ones have died. To cope, she’d set her emotions aside and hyperfocus on work. Then her grief counselor recommended an ADHD test. Now, she’s making space to process her feelings. And she’s thinking a lot about ADHD accommodations at work — especially in high-stress executive roles.Related resourcesADHD and emotionsUnderstanding hyperactivity32 examples of workplace accommodationsEpisode transcriptMananya: I thought that people were seeing me as quirky and hyperactive and just fun. Did not realize that people may have seen me differently. Then I got emotional also because how have I gotten to this place at the age of 41 as an executive? It meant probably that I have overdone myself and exhausted myself to get to this point.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I am here today with Mananya Komorowski. Mananya is a celebrity, an influencer executive, and a mental health and wellness advocate. Welcome, Mananya.Mananya: Hi, thank you!Laura: I'm so glad you're here today. Can you please explain to our listeners what is a celebrity and influencer executive? Absolutely.Mananya: I get that question a lot. I think my husband probably still wondering what I do for a living. So, truly what it means is I match major brands with celebrities and influencers in the space. So, it could be any sort of celebrities, whether is musicians, artists or film influencers. It could be TikTokers, YouTubers or thought leaders with major brands in terms of what they want to do online.Laura: Very cool. And I think I know that you probably won't say this about yourself, but I know that you're kind of a big deal in this space.Mananya: Well, it's nice to hear that I may be seen as one. But I will say this, I am an OG in the space. I've actually been an influencer on celebrity marketing for about sixteen years now. And influencer marketing was new sixteen years ago, and I got right into it at the start. It was born out of PR and social media and I did not think I was going to be on this ride to this very day.Laura: So, let's talk about ADHD, Mananya. This is the ADHD Aha! podcast. We want to know about, number one, when were you diagnosed with ADHD?Mananya: About four months ago at most. So, this is a new journey for me and a surprising one. So, the "aha" was no more than four months ago.Laura: Tell me about that "aha." And welcome to our ADHD community, by the way.Mananya: Thank you, thank you. I'm learning so much about the community, but also of course, I'm learning so much about myself. I have a lot of "aha" moments throughout the entire day, but the moment it really happened was I had honestly seven close deaths in five years and three major caretaking. And still to this very day, I'm doing one major one, tag teaming with my husband. But I was informed that I may have ADHD by my grief counselor. So the latest unfortunate death of a close, close friend, almost a sister to me, happened six months ago, and it was the first time that I felt like my brain was a bit foggy.And I have always been highly productive, highly on the go without any sort of qualms about it, right? But when I was talking to my grief counselor, within that first hour, she asked me if I've ever been diagnosed with ADHD. And I actually just asked her, I said, "Is it because I talk too fast? Is it because I keep putting things in the parking lot?" And what I mean by parking lot is that, like I have so many things happening in my mind that I'm always afraid I'm going to miss a topic or a point. And so, I'll put things in the parking lot, and then I'll reverse the car when I need to talk about that particular topic. And I just thought that was normal in terms of my pace and speed in which I talk and think. And she said, "No, it's just not about the parking lot. I just feel you may just need to see a psychiatrist."Laura: She didn't give you any more than that? I'm sorry to interrupt you, she didn't give you any more specifics?Mananya: No.Laura: I'm asking because I also know that people with ADHD can struggle with grief in different ways than other people, or sometimes more intensely because of the innate kind of ADHD challenges that they face around managing emotions and impulse control, etc. So, I was just wondering if she had mentioned anything specifically to you. It sounds like no.Mananya: We're uncovering that right now in our six-month relationship together. But within that first hour, we didn't go further and she didn't push me at all. And it made me curious enough, shall we say, in terms of the ADHD, that she was actually putting a label or name to something, in which I've always just thought it was a personality. Everyone has quirky personalities, right? I just happen to be quirky and hyperactive. And I sought out a psychiatrist and that was a pretty emotional experience for me.My psychiatrist gave me a series of questions as an assessment. This particular assessment, it was ranked from one through ten, one being low frequency, ten being often, with a special answer, which is you could also say this is the way it's always been. So, one through ten or this is the way it's always been. And within four questions, he looked up at me and said, "We're going to continue for 25 minutes. But I can already tell you you have severe ADHD combined type one." Didn't know what that meant, and I just proceeded to continue. And by maybe the sixth question, I paused him and I said, "Wait, hold on, wait a minute. Why did you just say that? How did you know already?".Laura: Yeah.Mananya: And he said, "Because every single answer you've answered so far has been 'This is the way it's always been.'" And I asked him, "So you mean to tell me that the six questions you've asked me others answered differently? Then this is the way it's always been?".Laura: Wow.Mananya: But yeah, so we went through the entire 25 minutes and all of my answers were "This is the way it's always been." And that is when I started getting emotional.Laura: Why do you think you were emotional?Mananya: That was the moment I realized I thought that people were seeing me as quirky and hyperactive and just fun. Did not realize that people may have seen me differently. Then I got emotional also because how have I gotten to this place at the age of 41 as an executive? It meant probably that I have overdone myself and exhausted myself to get to this point.Laura: The coping with grief.Mananya: Yes.Laura: It's not a topic that we've touched on on this show, and you're certainly the first person who I've had on whose "aha" moment came from a grief counselor, which I'm very grateful to, this wonderful grief counselor that you have. Yeah, coping with grief is harder when you have ADHD.Mananya: This latest particular grief gave me that "aha" moment in a way that I did not expect because I just thought I was going to go to the next grief, the next challenge, right? But coping with grief, now knowing my diagnosis, has allowed me to stop and actually grief. Because I promise you, if I did not get the ADHD assessment and saw it on paper, that neurologically my brain just, is always on the go, I would not have walked away from an amazing job. My company as much as many corporate entities, when you have such a special relationship with them, they will give you all the time you need. I didn't want anything to hang over me. I needed for me to just grieve because I know medicated or not, my ADHD was going to get me back to something else immediately.Laura: So, not allowing yourself the time to actually grieve because your brain is moving so fast that you couldn't stick with the grief. Is that what you're saying?Mananya: Yes. So, I'm blessed to have a partner that's very supportive and a great company I've been with for so many years and professional network that all pretty much by now all probably know that I'm taking care of me. It's really interesting because some of the most highest executives have commended me openly and personally about taking what I call 'press pause.' And I'm proud of myself, too, because, again, my behavior and routine is just go to the next PowerPoint deck. Just go to the next pitch, right? So, that's how the "aha" moment has changed me during grief this time around is I'm actually allowing myself to wake up late this morning, to cry if I want to, so I don't have to like, hide it on a Teams call.Laura: And what do you think might have happened if you hadn't done that? Like, how would the grief have come out?Mananya: I would have continued to kill it, but it would have taken a toll on my body. I'm also reading a book called The Body Keeps the Score.Laura: I've heard of that. Yeah.Mananya: And I'm also learning that your brain, of course, is tied to many other things. But we don't think about that. We think of our organs as separate entities. I think I would have done continued back pains. I think that I would have continued to maybe breathe faster. My heart's beating faster and I wouldn't even know it. So, I think that my body would have just given me signals eventually, but I would have still, because ADHD folks are pretty freaking smart, when they'd know how to do something, they do it well. They just keep on doing regardless of anything, right? I wouldn't have failed at that, but I think my body would have failed me.Laura: Right. Sounds like you probably would have burned out because you would have been hyperfocusing on anything you could cling to. It sounds like.Mananya: Yes.Laura: And then jumping from one to another. It's really hard when you have ADHD. I'm speaking from my own experience to just sit with how you feel. Isn't it?Mananya: We don't often sit with how we feel.Laura: Yeah.Mananya: Especially when we have roles in society: a mother, an aunt, a wife, a partner, a teacher.Laura: You were talking about how others might be perceiving you as different than the way that you viewed yourself is. Was it about that? Were you getting feedback from other people that you weren't, or was it really that you had a new conception of yourself maybe?Mananya: The latter, yeah. And I've never seen quirky and hyperactive and being all over the place and putting too many cars in the parking lot is a bad thing. But then I started to realize, "Wait a minute, how does the world see me? Am I damaged goods?" Now that we're putting a title or label on things, I was just kind of shocked, I guess, that one: I also have such loving friends and colleagues that may have known, but have either adapted to me, have catered to me, or have just accepted me as I am. And don't forget, I've led North America teams. So, that means that I manage a lot of also executives under me and also all the way down to like the new generation. And so, how I show up, I start to think, "Wow, bless them too."Laura: Do you think that they knew that about you or have you been masking?Mananya: Absolutely. Because as soon as I received my confirmation, my husband started smiling. I said, "Wait a minute, you knew?" And he goes, "Mananya, of course." My closest colleagues and co-executives, oh, yeah, they all knew. My team under me, all the way down to the new generation, "Wait a minute. You didn't know?". One of the stories when I had approached my close network, right? with this, one of them said, "Mananya, do you not recall how when you just hired me and we had our first one on one, you said to me you don't believe in multitasking? Yes, that's correct. I believe that you should focus on one thing at a time. Give it all you've got." She goes "But you had your Beats headphones on while vacuuming on Kuma with me." I said, "So, what about it?" She goes, "Mananya, I'm your new employee. You don't believe in multitasking and you're vacuuming with headphones." I said "Oh, that's a good example. Yeah."Laura: That is a great example. However, I wonder, because I acknowledge that you're very new to getting this diagnosis, right? So, I imagine the emotions are just all over the place, right? You're getting this feedback from your husband, from your colleagues that they knew.Mananya: Yes.Laura: Do you think that they're viewing that as a bad thing, a neutral thing, a good thing? Like, what's your perception of that, and do you care?Mananya: I, you know because I have a couple of sets of parents, but she laughed and she said, "Of course you are." But she's from the Thai culture. So, ADHD and cognitive behaviors amongst many things are not often discussed or recognized at all. But my mom is a trendsetter. She knew what that meant, ADHD. And she just laughed and said, "Well, why do you think I've always said since you were young that you're hyperactive, hyperactive, and Thai culture equals ADHD I guess.Laura: If you look back, do you remember experiencing signs of ADHD growing up? And if so, what were they?Mananya: Did not see any signs outside of my life mother saying I've always been hyperactive, my husband saying I'm quirky, my friends love me because of it and my colleagues saying I'm brilliant but chaotic. Well, whatever. So, we grieve, right? When we find these "aha" moments because we're like, "Wait, who are we? Are we like not ourselves? What was our old self then? How are we just finding out right now at 25, 22 or 41 in my case?".And I say life mother because I have a pretty traumatic childhood and therefore I was often abandoned, and my life mother unfortunately wasn't with me past the age of eight. And also that was when I was in Thailand. Again, different cultures don't see things like this as an issue. They try to almost knock the ADHD out of you sometimes, too. And so, after the age of eight, I was placed into a home with my biological parents and unfortunately, they abandoned me pretty often. And so, no one was around as an adult to be able to see me grow since the age of eight. And so, no constant adult to take me to a doctor, no parental unit to see my personality change or my focus change over time, no parents to really notice my grades failing at a certain point. And that's why. I didn't see it until now. And the grief helped resurface something that was truly hidden.Laura: When did you come to the United States as a child?Mananya: I came to United States at the age of eight.Laura: At eight, OK. So that was at age eight. OK, so yeah, that, yeah English language learners and then untangling things like ADHD or learning disabilities from that, that's very tricky.Mananya: Yes. Yes.Laura: Yeah.Mananya: I mean, I came at eight and constantly had to be in survival mode, right? And so, therefore, that is what I truly believe attributed me to building a life for myself professionally here, which is you ain't got other options. You got to do do do, you got to win win win.Laura: People have described you, I think if I remember correctly from the last time we chatted, as unlike any other executive.Mananya: Yes.Laura: What is it about you and how has ADHD manifested for you at work? You know, what do you remember from even pre-diagnosis?Mananya: Fearlessness? I do have friends and colleagues still that say, "Are you sure you only got ADHD girl? You think have something else too? Because sometimes you say things that everyone's thinking, but we just don't say it."Laura: So, if that's ADHD.Mananya: Yes. I guess that's what that is, yes.Laura: Right.Mananya: I would say that I do have a sense of fearlessness and that probably as a female and as a BIPOC, it probably catapulted me further in my career and faster just because I don't often hold back in which I've learned through the years that I have to learn how to hold back a little bit, too, to ensure that I'm reading the room and understanding social cues and social norms. But in the world that I work in, it's also good to be unique, right? You have to be a trendsetter to really understand what's next before people know what's coming. And so, I take some of these, like clairvoyance superpowers of mine to be able to predict "Y'all, I know it won't make sense right now. Just trust me on this. I'm seeing, you know, the forest through the trees. Y'all are still in the shrubs. Just trust me." So, I'm also, I think, great in a room, too. And clients love that energy.Laura: What maybe have you struggled with at your job when it comes to ADHD? And then let's talk about if you can even accommodate for that sort of thing in your role.Mananya: So, I think that ADHD and accommodations in the workplace in corporate America is still very new, right? And it's so unique per person. So, that's still a journey that I'm hoping to discover and continue conversations, which is what does accommodations for ADHD look like in today's society in corporate America? But what I have had some challenges in is that in my world of Ad PR agency, it is so high paced, it is high volume. And so, when you have to code switch constantly in meetings between 15 different clients you work with and masking, you tend to get exhausted and maybe a little bit faster than some.And the uniqueness for me in addition is that I'm ESL. English is not my first language. And the culture, even though I'm very Americanized, my processing of my brain pre-knowing about ADHD was already having to translate everything. So, we talk about working in an agency setting. You're working with a pharma client, you're working with a food client, imagine the set of languages and content and information you have to constantly switch to and from. You're working with consumer clients, and then you're working with more conservative clients. Your language also has to change too, often. So it's been something I've excelled at. But that's when I realized, especially tying back to the trauma I face as far as constant losses and stuff like that, is sometimes you just cope and you have insane defense mechanism and you just have survival skills like no other.And I think that individuals with ADHD, you could fall into having high anxiety and depression because you feel like you can't do it all. Or you could be opposite of me, which is I have zero disclose depression and zero disclose anxiey, because we also took those tests because I'm so severe, that my psychiatrist was shocked. Each time I see him monthly, he said, "I think we need to take that test again. I really want to make sure." I said, "Doc, I'm 41, I'm 41. I think like I've just learned how to survive.Laura: Let's talk about that some more because that's such an interesting point and one that — if I'm being honest, I've been thinking about a lot lately with my own therapist and talking about how exhausted I feel and even the code-switching that I'll do between like doing an interview like this and then managing a team, just like going back and forth, like have a little vulnerability hangover, and then I move on and I'm talking about budgets, you know, that kind of thing. So, I'm assuming in your line of work, you don't have the luxury of only working with one client per day, right?Mananya: Correct.Laura: You can't only get to talk to that food Client. Yeah.Mananya: Yeah.Laura: So, you're constantly switching gears, like that's a lot of executive functioning load on you all the time, right?Mananya: That's correct, yes. You just have to keep on going. And those are some of the accommodations that I think that executives probably will need in the future, which is like the recovery time, the support for executive functioning.Laura: I want to hear more about that because that's really interesting. I think that's kind of groundbreaking to think about what are possible accommodations for people at this executive level like this recovery time.Mananya: Yeah.Laura: I do that after these interviews. I always schedule a half an hour in between my meetings, but I proactively do that and someone could very easily just schedule over that, right? I try to avoid that, but like I don't have a formal accommodation in place to allow for that. Do you have other ideas of other types of...Mananya: Yeah, and those are things that I don't think, well, I mean, it definitely doesn't exist yet, right? There's no template for it yet because how often do you see executives like me or see levels that could have that large seat at the table to open up this conversation? And that's why I'm doing this podcast interview, is because I want to have people start to think that ADHD is not just with kids between 3 to 5 and then the newer generation. There are folks like us that are like the boomers and the Gen X or whatnot that have it.So, I would say that some of the things I've learned I will continue to fight for is recovery time, right? And every single industry looks different. But if you're doing a lot of presentations, is it just saying, "You know what, between every single presentation, I need at least the rest of the day to have not one," or if you're doing major patches, is that they you restrict it to only two per month, right? But again, this is why it's so hard to kind of put some sort of rigor and process around it because every single organization is different. So, I think that is the responsibility of each company when they're doing DEAI programs.Laura: Diversity, equity and inclusion.Mananya: Yeah, they need to really think about neurodiversity as its own entity. And how do we not just get together and talk about it at these employee groups or business resource groups, but how do we change policies within each company? Because each company has to really take a look and take stock of their employees and the wellness of their employees. From a DEAI standpoint, DNI, I believe still, which is important, focuses on race, culture, gender, and things like that. Again, very important that we've really sparked a lot of conversations, and within the past five years. But let's add neurodiversity to that, too.Laura: Yeah. So, what's next for you, Mananya? Your new on your ADHD journey.Mananya: Yes.Laura: You're still grieving.Mananya: Yes, I'm still grieving. But, you know, I think that humans grieve and challenges doesn't just come one time, two times and stops, right? We have to learn how to kind of adapt to it. It's just part of life. But really knowing and listening to yourself to go like, wait a minute, this time around is a little different. Let's give ourselves some grace and do some self-care and love. And I don't mean self-care, just like getting massages. Self-care is also knowing to make some compromises in your life so that your heart and your brain, your body is just one.So, given that I love what I do as a career, I'm still dabbling in terms of doing some projects because I think that it's really important for me even medicated to be able to not just go cold turkey, shall we say, like kind of like slowly take a back seat eventually over time. So, I'm still learning. I'm doing a lot of new cues now. So, learning new things such as Mananya, all right,  write things down more? Mananya, like maybe like don't have 500 outstanding text messages. When you get a new one answer right away. So, just like learning a lot of these new executive functions, to be honest with you.Laura: Mananya, I'm so glad that you reached out to me and to Understood.org, and I'm just grateful that you came on the show today.Mananya: Thank you for having me. Thank you to the listeners for taking the time to hear my story out. It's definitely an honor. And but more than anything, thank you for supporting and being a part of this organization, I think is such an important organization and the mission and what you're doing. I think there's a lot of work to be done and coming from where I sit, which is corporate America, I really want Understood.org to really like tap in to that and continue to break through in those conversations.I think that the newer generation, even though it is hard for all of us to be neurodivergent, they have a very supportive community and you know, it's not stigmatized for them to talk about it. But like for all of the ones that are older, you know, we see you and I really do hope that individuals don't burn themself out and they start to take stock of their life, too, and go, "What's happening? Do I need to take a pause? And what does that look like?" But then again, that goes back to having organizations like you to kind of bring that sort of integrity into what you're supporting and in doing is going to help move the needle a lot, I think, in corporate America.Laura: Thank you so much Mananya, I appreciate it.Mananya: Thank you.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission."ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine!Jessamine: Hi, everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening. 

Biofeedback: What You Need to Know

Biofeedback is an alternative therapy some people use to treat the symptoms of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). It’s also called neurofeedback, EEG biofeedback or neurotherapy.This treatment has been used since the late 1960s, but evidence on whether it can help ADHD symptoms is still mixed.What Biofeedback IsBiofeedback has long been used to treat problems like high blood pressure, muscle tension and anxiety. Neurofeedback, a form of biofeedback, is used mainly with kids who have ADHD. It may also help kids with learning and thinking differences who struggle with organization, working memory and executive functioning skills.When used for ADHD, a device reads a child’s brain wave activity and sends feedback via a game-like challenge. Supporters claim this process can train the brain to behave differently and reduce ADHD symptoms.The concept of neurofeedback for ADHD is based on evidence that some people with ADHD show differences in brain activity, especially in the frontal lobe. This part of the brain affects concentration and organization.How Biofeedback WorksA biofeedback device acts like a sixth sense that allows a patient to “see” or “hear” activity inside his body. A typical device picks up electrical signals in the muscles. It translates these signals into a form the patient can sense, such as a flashing light or a sound, every time muscles tense up. He tries to slow down the flashing or beeping by becoming aware of the tense muscle and figuring out how to relax it.During neurofeedback, electrodes (which look like flattened ear buds) are placed on a child’s head or in a headband, to monitor his brain activity. These electrodes are not painful.Here’s how neurofeedback works:The child watches a video and listens for a prompt to change something he sees. For example, he might be asked to make a dot onscreen stand still.He focuses his mind on the task, which sends a message through the electrodes on his scalp to the computer. He does this without using a mouse, joystick or keyboard.As the computer senses electrical activity in the child’s brain, it sends him feedback (the dot on the screen does or doesn’t stop moving, for example).This feedback helps the child figure out how to “control” or change the way he’s concentrating or paying attention.The idea is that over time, having a child alter his brain waves through practice and repetition will help him concentrate for longer periods of time while playing the neurofeedback game.Weekly sessions of an hour or less are usually recommended. Depending how severe the ADHD symptoms are, treatment may take 10 to 20 sessions.Who Provides BiofeedbackThis therapy is provided by a biofeedback therapist. Laws that regulate this therapy vary from state to state. Some biofeedback therapists are certified in a certain approach.Biofeedback therapists are usually professionals in psychology and psychiatry, physical therapy or nursing. Some provide biofeedback therapy under the supervision of a medical doctor.Your child’s doctor or other specialists, such as psychologists, can often help you find a good biofeedback therapist in your area.What to Watch Out ForSo far, research on how well neurofeedback works for ADHD is inconclusive. Some scientists who reviewed the studies say the therapy is “probably helpful.” But others found that it’s only “possibly helpful” for ADHD.Neurofeedback can be expensive, and your health insurance may not cover it.The Bottom LineThere is little harm in trying neurofeedback. But the evidence that it helps kids with ADHD and other learning and thinking differences is mixed. Before trying any alternative therapy for your child, be sure to investigate it. Here’s a list of questions to ask.

ADHD and the “model minority” mask (Emily’s story)

Emily would hide the ADHD symptoms that made them feel like a failure to their traditional Asian family. Getting an ADHD diagnosis changed that.Emily Unity’s challenges with executive function and sensory processing seemed very similar to those of their mental health clients with ADHD. Emily does peer support work for young people in Australia. Ultimately, it was their interactions with other youth with ADHD that led to their own ADHD diagnosis. Emily talks about masking their ADHD symptoms and feeling like a failure to their traditional Asian family. They also discuss how stereotypes of Asian people as a model minority made them feel shame and guilt. And they share how they finally felt seen and “broke the mask” when they were diagnosed with ADHD.  Related resourcesEmily’s article: How culture shaped my ADHD diagnosisThe difference between ADHD and sensory processing challenges What is executive function?Episode transcriptEmily: I was very honored to work with a lot of really diverse young people, particularly a lot of young people that have been diagnosed with ADHD. When they shared their stories with me, that was the first time that I really, really felt understood. And I was really able to relate to what they were saying.And I was like, "Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Like, I really relate to that. Here's an example of how I also had that experience," and they were like, "OK, you should probably check that out because you potentially have ADHD." And it was maybe, like, the 20th person I've worked with that had said that, that I was like, "OK, I should probably get this checked out."Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Emily Unity. Emily is a young person who lives in Australia, and she refers to herself as a miscellaneous blob. I'll let her tell you why that is.Emily: Hi! Thanks so much for having me. My name is Emily. My pronouns are she/they. I definitely feel like I am a miscellaneous blob because there's just so much about me that doesn't necessarily discretely fit into certain categories. I've just found myself to be really interested in the world in general and really attracted to very weird, niche things that don't really have anything in common. So I'm culturally diverse, and sexual and gender diverse, and also neurodiverse. But also, like, even career-wise, I've been an artist and an engineer, and now I'm a mental health advocate. And this is just me, just now, and so if you talk to me in a week, maybe everything will be different. But I just love being a weird blob and existing in spaces that are new. And it's just, yeah, not, not really able to describe myself in a very succinct way.Laura: I love that. So why don't you tell our listeners what it is that you do?Emily: So about 50 percent of my work is, like, policy advocacy, but I'd say the other 50 percent is peer work. So I've always been really passionate about mental health, and I've been volunteering since a young age. And when I went and did my studies in, like, postgrad psych, I found that it was a little bit too rigid for me or didn't quite sit with me too well, so I went in and found other alternative things of therapy.And one of the pathways that I went down was peer work. And peer work essentially is when you have a lived experience of a mental illness and you work alongside someone else that has that lived experience as well. And it's much more mutual than a psychologist and patient relationship, like, you're working with each other, you're walking alongside each other, and your journey, like, neither of you, uh, recovered in a binary sense. You're consistently working through things, and it's very reciprocal and lovely.I found that, like, in my journey, it was definitely such a big catalyst for me to find other people that really understood what I was feeling because they had lived it and were still living it. And that was such a game changer for me. Instead of talking to someone who felt like they were trying to fix me or felt like they didn't quite get it, it's been absolutely game changing for me and apparently game changing for a lot of the young people that I work in.Laura: And through that work, you actually started to hear a lot from clients with ADHD, is that right?Emily: Yeah, definitely. So I didn't think that I was necessarily neurotypical before peer work, but I was really labeled with, like, certain labels, like depression and anxiety. But through doing peer work, I worked with a number of young people that had diagnoses of ADHD and were in, like, quite formal treatment settings. And it was then that they were sharing a lot of experiences with me, and what they were saying were a little bit too relatable. So they highly encouraged me to go seek out that pathway for myself.Laura: So tell me about the too-relatable things. What were you hearing from your clients about ADHD that perked your ears up, so to speak, and made you think, "Is this related to anything that's going on with me?"Emily: There were, like, these small anecdotal things that they would tell me, particularly with, like, sensory stuff. It was, like, overstimulation of like, "I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying over the sound of my shirt tag being itchy and, like, the one strand of hair touching my face." Like, I was like, "Oh yeah, I totally get that." And they're like, that's not tied specifically to my depression or my anxieties; I should probably explore that more. Or, like, understimulation, with trying to go to sleep and then the latent noise in your brain being too loud so you need to put on something else to sort of drown that out. And then lots of, like, executive dysfunction, like, "Let's clean the table, but before that, I should clean the sink, but oh, I need to take the trash out. Oh, I should get changed." And there's just all this, like, stuff going on and then feeling like you can't do any of it because there's too much and not enough happening. And like, I tend to info dump a lot, which I'm currently doing, which is like —Laura: At my request, thank you.Emily: Putting a lot of information there, going down these tangents because I'm just so passionate and focused on it. It's just all those small cognitive and sensory things that — it just happened over and over again and hearing my young people's stories and just being able to relate to them way too much. But also being able to see the immense amount of, like, pleasure and understanding that they had within themselves once they got help.Laura: Tell me a little bit more about the sensory stuff that you're referencing. I think it sounds like sensory overload, right? Like, a lot of information coming in and also, like, seeking out sensory stimulation, which can be pretty common with ADHD. Because, you know, we can look at, like, trouble with self-regulation or trouble switching gears as leading to sensory overload. Tell me a little bit more about your experience with that.Emily: From a very, very young age, I used to go on ski trips overseas, and my mom would get me to wear gloves because it was freezing. And I just, I really hated wearing gloves because I felt like the world was completely on mute. Like, I just felt like I was experiencing the world through this really thick shield. And that's because I realized later that, like, my touch sensors were dulled, and that was such a big thing for me. And, like, nowadays to manage even my anxiety and, like, lots of my ADHD, I do a lot of stimming, which is, like, self-stimulatory behavior of trying to regulate my sensory input. So if there's not enough, like, I'll tap my hand a little bit or I'll play with a fidget toy. Or if there's too much, then I'll try to, like, redirect that somewhere else. Sometimes I'll eat some food that's just so good. Like, sometimes I really love peanut butter on toast, but I will not be able to concentrate on what the other person's saying, because I just really love the peanut butter. So yeah, just be aware of that, I think, to be able to communicate with the other person in that environment and be like, I'm really sorry. I do want to listen to what you're saying. Can I please just finish, like, what's happening in my mouth? For me, there's so many small things. Like, I need to take out the trash. I need to take out the trash, I need to take out the trash, but there's a plane flying overhead and I can hear the sound of the plane, but I need to take out the trash. Because of that, I can't listen to the plane or take out the trash. It's very silly. I feel like that sort of executive dysfunction is something that was really lovely to understand about myself. Because normally I would just beat myself up about it and be like, "You're useless. Like, why can't you do anything? That makes no sense that you can't take out the trash because there's a plane."But I think it's about being, like, a lot more kind with myself and having that language to really communicate what's going on with me. Because I think for a lot of people around me, they just see me, like, frozen, like, "Ah, I can't do anything," and they can't help and they can't understand.Laura: You're talking about executive functioning difficulties, which, I have to be honest, Emily, it kind of surprises me. In my interactions with you, I've found you to be one of the most organized people I've ever interacted with.Emily: Thank you. I highly appreciate that. People tend to say that quite a bit about me. And I think, honestly, it comes from a place of sort of being forced into that. So I was only diagnosed with ADHD quite recently, like in the past couple of years. And I think because I was sort of punished for a lot of the symptoms that I exhibited from ADHD, I hid a lot of it, or I, like, built up different structures in my life to just cope with it. When I hear any sort of constructive criticism, I take it on quite personally. I'm working on that, obviously, but I definitely used to carry a lot of criticism with me all the time.I was just, like, compulsively trying to organize myself because I felt really awful anytime that I let anyone down with my dysfunction of not being able to remember things, you know. So now I have, like, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets and lists upon lists, just trying to get to that point where I can be accountable for my own actions and people don't have to be, like, let down by me all the time, which I definitely felt a lot when I was younger.Laura: You felt like you let people down.Emily: Yeah, intensely. Laura: Can you say more about that? Emily: So I grew up sort of surrounded by a lot of expectations. I come from a first-generation immigrant background — like, my mom is a refugee and my dad's a migrant. And I think a lot of people from those types of backgrounds, they come to a new country and they want to just flip that narrative around as quickly as possible. And so, they want the best for their children, they build up this, like, really amazing life. And I grew up so privileged. But in doing so, I had so many expectations on me: to be smart, to be good at everything, to get a good husband and that sort of stuff, to find, like, a privileged, pristine, and prestigious career path and be this perfect human. But I'm so imperfect as a person and now I've come to love that. But at the time, I definitely felt like it was a bad thing. And I just really tried my best to shape myself into something that I wasn't. And I think that's why my ADHD went undiagnosed for so long is because I was really good at that at the time within, like, school settings, and I really benefited from a lot of the routine and structure that was imposed on me. But when that was taken away after school, everything fell apart. Laura: How did it fall apart?Emily: Not having, like, class in the morning consistently and not going into all these specific things. I would just not be able to function. It was sort of the first time in my life. Like, I definitely had that ADHD symptom of, if something is not interesting, it is almost physically painful to do. But I had people around me at the time that the expectation and, like, the fear of letting them down was so much louder. And like, I would just be able to push through it, push through the pain, because, like, that pain of letting them down was so much more important to me.But when I finished school, I was just, like, completely moved away from, like, most things that I knew. And I think because of that, I also moved away from a lot of the active, like, expectations and, like, the criticism. Which is partially a good thing, but also the, like, physical pain that I felt not being able to do something that I wasn't interested in, that was everything. So I fell into, like, a lot of, you know, following the, like, I call it, like, the ADHD demon. And I mean, it in, like, a really wholesome way. I love my ADHD demon, but they would lead me down these, like, really, like, interesting and beautiful pathways, but they were completely nonproductive and definitely derailed the life that other people had sort of set up for me in terms of going and getting, like, this set degree or in doing this job.I just started pursuing a lot of miscellaneous things, which now I'm entirely grateful for. But at the time it just felt like I wasn't in control. But I was still having, like, the best time.Laura: Is that related to, um, this idea of masking that you talked about in the article? For our listeners, Emily wrote a beautiful article called "How Culture Affected My ADHD Diagnosis." And in it, she talks about the "model minority mask." There's a quote from your article — you say there was this model minority myth that claimed all Asians are obedient and academically gifted. And you go on to talk about how model minorities are supposed to be quiet and well behaved, and they're meant to be high achievers.Emily: Yeah. I studied so hard in school. I, like, I really tried. And I think because of that, I ended up being quote-unquote high achieving. But I think at the time, I didn't afford myself that sort of "Hey, you did it" feeling. Because I assumed that if I was good at something, particularly in school, it was just a product of my genetics because I'm Asian. Like, I genuinely just thought that because I'm Asian, I have to be good at this. And anything less than 100 is, like, a complete failure. And I'm not just letting myself down. I'm not just letting my family down. I'm letting down, like, the entire collective that is Asian people, which is a ridiculous sentiment. But I definitely felt that at the time; that sort of model minority mask of me pushing myself and being this, like, high-achieving, quiet human. It just goes against every, like, stereotypical idea of what ADHD is. When someone thinks about ADHD, I think, particularly when I was younger, I thought it was, you know, a young boy that's, like, restless in class, like, the class clown. But for me, I was, like, just, I felt all this weight of expectations. I felt like if I acted out, if like, if I was fidgeting with anything, it was a bad thing and I would be punished for it. And so I just really contained myself, even though it was, like, sometimes physically painful to sit still. And I just did everything that was expected of me because I, I just felt like there would be severe consequences to not just myself but, like, the people that I love if I didn't.And I think later on it took me so long to take off that mask. It was, like, permanently on my face. But that sort of high-functioning, quote-unquote, which I think is a really humble term, like, high-functioning aspect, I was demonstrating was used to deny me support. There was like, "You're too smart to have ADHD. You're too intelligent to, like, need support. Like, why aren't you working up to your full potential?" And that was just so distressing. And I just always felt like I was too Asian to have ADHD. Like, Asians can't have ADHD, you know — you're meant to be good at math. And, like, you're meant to be organized and quiet. And I just felt this huge imposter syndrome of "I don't deserve help," which is something that I felt when I was a lot younger, but it just translated so easily into the ADHD context as well.Laura: That sounds really exhausting, Emily.Emily: Yeah. It really was, like, just this internal battle in my head.Laura: Did you burn out at any point?Emily: Yeah, I think there are a couple of points where, like, ADHD definitely feeds into a lot of my other diagnoses, I suppose. Once one thing sort of starts falling down, everything else falls down, as well, like a house of cards. And I think it's just, it's incredibly difficult for me, at the time, to understand what was going on. I think particularly with ADHD, because I didn't have the understanding or the label or the medication, I just felt like I knew who I was and I was just an obedient, high-achieving human. And then suddenly, without all that structure, I couldn't be that person. And I just had this huge identity crisis that was also a part of exploring my own identity and nothing really made sense.So I did have a lot of breakdown points that were not just burning out from work or study. There were also, like, burning out from just, life, from having to, like, discover who I am by, like, trial of fire. I just want softness and understanding. And I just, I couldn't find that.Laura: I wrote down something from one of your emails. I'm writing down a lot of things that you say, by the way, Emily, you're a very great communicator. But you said diagnoses are ways to communicate myself. I thought that was really lovely that you said that, and I'm hoping that you can share a little bit more what you mean by that.Emily: This is, like, a fairly controversial opinion, but it's something that's widely shared, I think, within particularly complex mental health. I think that diagnoses are sort of ways that we try to categorize people to help them on a certain path. And I think clinical psychology is really good in that sense that, like, you can investigate certain experiences and then have treatment pathways that are, like, evidence-based.But I think that they can be really, really harmful — diagnoses. I think that they can be a label that, like, becomes, like, who you are, and people tend to just minimize the complexity of your experience down to just a certain label. But I found that diagnoes for me, the benefit of it is being able to communicate who I am and find my shared people. Like, I wouldn't have been able to find you if I didn't identify by the label of ADHD. And I think that, like, that label for me is something that is very positive, but I think for a lot of other people, it's very negative. It's a way of just saying like, "Hey, like, this is something that I have been labeled with, necessarily, and you can go and look it up for yourself." And I think that was just excellent for me, like, growing up. You know, when I was diagnosed with depression or anxiety, or, like, certain other things, people that I loved that weren't really able to understand me could go and look that up on their own time. And particularly because I didn't have the language to explain to them, "This is how I'm feeling." Then it would be a lot easier for us to come to that sort of shared ground.And I think ADHD for me has just been — it's not that I should have a favorite diagnosis or anything like that, but it's been such a wholesome experience coming and finding more people that really identify positively with that label. And now it's like, this is my kin, this is how we are. And it's lovely to have that shared experience, whether it be good or bad, it's just nice to be a part of that team.Laura: Yeah. Your ADHD demons can hang out and have fun together, right? Emily: Exactly! Yeah, yeah.Laura: I appreciate that you laid out what can be the downside of diagnoses and labels, but also talking about what the positives can be. The downside, I think, if I got this right, that you mentioned is that they can be an excuse to minimize certain things. Is that something that happened with you growing up? Because you had other diagnoses, did your ADHD, quote-unquote, stuff kind of get pushed to the side?Emily: Absolutely. I think that when you get labeled with certain things, particularly within, like, very formal clinical settings, whatever experience that you have later, this is not generalizing all mental health professionals, but, like, the ones that I engage with tended to tie different symptoms down to what was already on my record. And so because of that, I was misdiagnosed with a number of things. Like certain eating disorders were actually, like, diagnosed by itself instead of attributed to, like, different sort of body dysmorphia things that I was experiencing, or, like, identity crises. I had a lot of my experience that was tied down with ADHD to just, "Oh, you're, you're just really depressed or, like, you're really traumatized from this thing." Like, PTSD and depression and anxiety all have overlapping symptoms with ADHD, but there's a lot that I was experiencing that was just ADHD. Like, it wasn't explained by all the other labels that I had. But I think those things were just sort of glossed over. It'd be like, "Oh, OK, you already have this label. So we'll just try to funnel it into that." It was such a struggle to get a diagnosis because I think a lot of the psychiatrists that I engage with either had this stigma of ADHD, particularly women with ADHD, and then particularly nonwhite people with ADHD. Because there's a lot of cultural nuance that came into my presentation. And I think it took a really long time to find a psychologist or a psychiatrist that really understood that. I genuinely cried when I found the psychiatrist who was able to validate my experience. And I remember reading the notes, that they were, like, explicitly, "Emily was able to hide her symptoms within the structure of her family and within the culture that she was raised in. But away from that structure, everything became a lot more apparent." And so that was what brought, like, all the things to the surface and, like, broke the mask, so to speak. I never felt so seen in my life.Laura: Thank you so much for being here with me today, Emily. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you.Emily: No, really. It's such a pleasure to talk with you as well. I really love these conversations, and it's really nice to find people with that shared lived experience. If any of the things that I've shared today, like, really resonate with you, I just want to let you know that, like, your experience is really valid with just the way that it is, and that you really don't need a shape yourself into someone else's idea of who you are, whether that be, like, you don't necessarily identify with ADHD or you don't identify with any sort of label; you're valid in just who you are and how you're experiencing the world is completely important without needing to translate that to someone else's idea of mental health.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha," from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org, or leave us a voicemail at 646-616-1213, extension 702. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash ADHD Aha.Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening.

Anger is exhausting

My storyMy two boys are about seven years apart in age. That’s far enough that they never had typical sibling rivalries. They didn’t compete for friends, for instance. But they both have different needs and they did compete for my attention.What I was doingMy youngest son has attention issues. When he was in preschool, some days it seemed like he never stopped talking. I spend a lot of time redirecting him and telling him to wait his turn. That got in the way when I wanted to focus on his older brother, who was in middle school.My older son has executive functioning issues and sensory processing issues. He tended to get overwhelmed by sensory input and feel frustrated when things didn’t go as expected. That got in the way, too.The result was that my husband and I often had to decide between equally undesirable options. When one of our boys had a school event, was it more disappointing for him if we had to sneak out of the auditorium with his overwhelmed (or overwhelming) brother or if only one of his parents attended to begin with?This is not the way I wanted things to be. I used to spend a lot of time feeling angry. Not at anybody, but at the circumstances that made me feel like I wasn’t the kind of mom I wanted to be. I didn’t want to feel pulled in so many directions or to be so irritable.It was always easy to see what I was doing wrong. But it wasn’t so easy to see what I was doing right.What I wish I’d known soonerOne day I had an epiphany. I’d snapped at my younger son, “Can you please just stop talking? This has to stop before you get to kindergarten! I cannot deal with explaining this to another teacher.”As soon as I said it, I was ashamed of myself. I realized that I’d been so angry about how hard life was that it had gotten in the way of my understanding that this amazing little boy just wanted to talk to me. There’s nothing wrong with him. His enthusiasm for life is wonderful.I wish I’d known sooner that being angry is just exhausting and unproductive. I realized that day that all the energy I’d spent worrying about everything I wasn’t doing well was energy I could use to enjoy what was going well.From then on, my husband and I worked to find new ways to manage our boys’ needs. We tag-teamed our way through many of our days. While I helped with middle school homework, my husband occupied our preschooler so he wouldn't interrupt. We found good babysitters so we could both go to school functions and neither boy felt ignored.Finding these new ways to cope helped me see my boys in a different light. To this day, my then-preschooler has never stopped talking. But the things he says are amazing. He’s inquisitive, quirky, and really funny. Yes, my older son still gets overwhelmed in social situations. But when we stay home together, that’s time we can spend getting to know each other instead of decompressing from sensory overload.Anyone who has more than one child knows that making sure everyone gets what they need is always going to be a juggling act. And you have to accept that some of those balls are going to fall — especially when you have kids with learning and thinking differences.I probably still juggle too many balls. But at least now I’m better at focusing on the ones that are still up in the air instead of just feeling angry about the ones that drop.

Diagnosed with ADHD during the pandemic (Scott’s story)

Getting diagnosed with ADHD as an adult during the pandemic helped Scott make sense of his childhood. Hear about his “light bulb” moment. Sometimes ADHD only makes sense in hindsight — like when you find out who the killer is in a murder mystery. During the pandemic, actor Scott Watson’s trouble with focus hit a tipping point and made him wonder if he had ADHD. Once he got diagnosed — and after stumbling across a handy acronym — he could see how ADHD had impacted him his whole life. Host Laura Key talks with Scott about his executive function skills, ADHD medication, and the pros and cons of hyperfocus.Related content What is executive function?All about ADHD medicationADHD and hyperfocusEpisode transcriptScott: I had my "aha" moment in 2020, when I was sitting at home trying to work remotely. And I just couldn't do it. It was something that wasn't hard. Something I've done before should not be a challenge. The idea of doing the task was just so monumentally daunting that I would just sit in front of my computer and avoid it for hours. And it was like, "Why can't I focus?" No matter how much coffee I drank or how many jumping jacks I do. So, yeah, I think the pandemic was really the moment where I was like, I need to do something.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Scott Watson. Scott is an actor who lives in Brooklyn, New York, and he has ADHD. Welcome, Scott.Scott: Hey, how's it going?Laura: Great. I'm so happy that you're here with me today. Let's jump right in. Tell me about your "aha" moment. When did you realize that you had ADHD, and how did you realize that?Scott: Like a flashbulb moment. It's hard, cause it's kind of like a movie where you find out who the killer is at the end, and then you go back through the whole movie and you're like, "Ah, of course it was that guy — look at all the clues." And that's our lives. When we find out we have ADHD, it's "Oh yeah, that makes total sense."But, yeah, I think the pandemic really was a big key. And for me, I was recently formally diagnosed this year. And I had been working from home and I just could not focus on getting the work done that needed to be done. And that just started to bring up a lot of things my entire life, where I was struggling to do things like this, that I've done a million times, that are not challenging, but I just have no interest or ability to do them.And I started doing some research, and then I came across this acronym on the internet that was incredibly helpful to me and was eye-opening, which was ICNU, which is interest, challenge, novelty, and urgency. And if a task does not fall into this category, for people with ADHD, those are the tasks that our brain struggles with the absolute most to complete.It was just such a light bulb moment of that acronym, because it was like, "That a thousand percent defines every test that I struggled with in my life." A lot of things started to break through with that realization.Laura: I really relate to that, especially what you say about looking back. It's like you struggled for so long and then finally it clicks and you look back and you're like, "Oh, I get it now."I think you said that you're from Michigan, is that right?Scott: I am, yeah.Laura: I'm from Ohio. So, from the same area. I know we're supposed to be enemies.Scott: Bitter rivals!Laura: But when you look back at growing up, as a kid in Michigan, can you pinpoint times when you were struggling and you're like, "Oh yeah, that was the ADHD that whole time."Scott: All the time.Laura: Tell me about them.Scott: ADHD can kick in at any time, but just being a kid, it's a lot easier to kind of ignore because kids are kids. They're impulsive, they're creative, they're full of energy, things like that. But I just remember around third or fourth grade, stuff that was so easy for me stopped being easy.And I went from breezing through A's and my grades to suddenly just not doing my homework. Coming home, being like, "OK, I need to do this — I need to do this math homework," setting it aside, and then, before I knew it, it was 10 p.m. and the homework was not done. That inability to focus on getting that done just continued to snowball through middle school and high school.And I think like a lot of people with ADHD, I'm no Mensa member, but I'm not dumb! But it was so frustrating to know that I had the capability to get this stuff done but I just wasn't. And that leads to all sorts of self-loathing, depression, all sorts of things. But, yeah, with the diagnosis, just looking back, especially in college, too, even though I got a theater degree — so, I was on my feet pretending to be a bird, so that was a lot easier for my ADHD brain — but just, like, the gen-ed subjects, it was the same thing. I just couldn't write a paper about cultural anthropology. It just didn't happen.Laura: It's not interesting enough for you.Scott: Yeah, it just didn't check the boxes. And that was the other thing. Occasionally, there would be assignments in school, like, in fourth grade I drew every single United States president, because I realized that I didn't know the names of all the presidents. So I did an incredible amount of research into who they were. I drew a portrait of every single one of them. This was not for an assignment. This was just me going down something that caught my hyperfocus. And I spent weeks and weeks and weeks on that while my homework just built up slowly beside me, and my parents were like, "This is great, so happy you're so excited about this, but, you know, your math homework is not done."Laura: Yeah. And I'm not surprised to hear you say that around third and fourth grade was a really telling moment for you. That's around the time in school when assignments start to get trickier, you have more to manage, and that's where that executive functioning difficulty comes in that you're referencing.A lot of people get confused about hyperfocus. They think, "OK, you have ADHD. So how are you able to hyperfocus on things that are so interesting to you, but you can't focus on other things." And what a lot of people don't understand is that ADHD can make it hard for you to shift your attention to something. It can also make it really hard for you to shift your attention away from something. And that's where the hyperfocus comes in. Do you use hyperfocus to your advantage right now in your life? Or is it a detriment ever? Talk to me about that.Scott: Yeah, it seemed to be, back in the day. It was many years before I realized that that's what happened.I've always liked to write. That was always something that I was passionate about. And that hyperfocus would click in when I was writing sometimes. And I knew after a while that I had to sit at my computer and chain myself to my chair and just kind of wait for that to happen. And sometimes it didn't, and it was so frustrating.It was like being Superman and only shooting lasers out of your eyes every fifth time. You just never know when it was going to click in. But when I saw that acronym — interest, challenge, novelty, and urgency — all of a sudden, a lot of things started to make more sense.It was like, OK, what helps me write? A deadline. And what do I like to write about? Things that I don't necessarily know about. So then there's the interest, drawing in, doing all this research; challenge, trying to do something I've never done before; and novelty of just writing something new. And that's what I've always really loved. I loved the first draft, getting it all out there.The second and third draft, no, not really. So, there's like 36 stories that are unfinished on my Google Drive.Laura: What you say about needing to basically chain yourself to a chair in order to get something done, it really reminds me of something that I heard from one of our experts. His name is Tom Brown, and I heard him say something like this before I got diagnosed, and it really stuck with me. And I'm paraphrasing here, but he said something along the lines of, you know, in order for someone with ADHD to really focus on something that they don't care about that much, that they're not interested in, it's almost like you have to have a gun to their head. Which I know is a very dark way of putting it, but it feels so true. And it reminds me, oh, this is so real, right? This is legit. This difficulty.Scott: Absolutely. Urgency — with chores, with all these things, it would just reach a certain point where I would look around at my car or my room or the shattered remains of my life. And I would just be like, "Enough." And then I would clean for hours. Hours and hours and hours.So it was like, build up, build up, build up, build up, build up, until it was urgent. And then the hyperfocus would click in, and then I would clean obsessively. And then, you know, rather than just, like, maintaining that cleaning schedule, I would go back to the "OK, I'll just throw my stuff on the ground" until another month had passed and things had built up. It's so frustrating. Because you're like, "Why am I like this? I know what I need to do so that this doesn't happen, but I just don't do it."Laura: It's the way your brain is wired. Let's talk a little bit about — boredom isn't a symptom of ADHD, but it can be the result of ADHD and that need for stimulation. Did you experience a lot of boredom growing up? Did you ever get in trouble for seeming bored or daydreamy?Scott: Yeah, especially as I started to get older through middle school and high school, I would just cover my notebook in doodles and sketches and things like that. I remember sitting in geometry class in my sophomore year of high school, and every day it would be the choice of "I can try to listen and be here in class," and just like excruciating torture of that. "Or I can just escape into my head and draw pictures of, like, Homer Simpson riding a rocket."Laura: Based on what you're telling me, it sounds like hyperactivity wasn't the symptom that you struggled with, or at least not the most. Is that accurate?Scott: That's pretty accurate. That's hard to look at from my own personal perspective; I was definitely a very active kid, like, my brother and I would go outside and he would come back sparkling clean and I would come back just like Pigpen from Peanuts, just, like, covered head to toe in dirt somehow.Laura: Sounds fun.Scott: Yeah. It's fun. And I loved to run when I was a kid. So there was definitely, like, an excess of energy that I was siphoning off. But I do have fidgets with my legs and things like that, where I'll be sitting in one place and my leg will start going up and down or shaking and things like that. It's all totally unconscious. But as I've gotten older and, I think this is relatively common, the whole hyperactivity thing has faded away a bit.Laura: Right. Of the symptoms of ADHD, it's one of the ones that can subside maybe more than others do.Scott: Yeah. And I would say that one, if it was ever there, subsided pretty quickly, which added to the confusion, because that's the one that the ADHD diagnosis seems to be first and foremost for a lot of people or an easy indicator when you're young that this person might have ADHD is that they are just, like, bouncing off the walls.Laura: Exactly. While you may have had some excess energy and were a bit fidgety, it sounds like that wasn't your primary symptom, hyperactivity. We typically associate boys with ADHD as being hyperactive. So, it's interesting to me that that's not the thing that really came to the forefront for you. And also makes me wonder if the fact that hyperactivity wasn't your big symptom, do you feel like that's potentially why you flew under the radar for many years?Scott: Yeah, absolutely. And, also, you know, I was growing up in the '90s in a very small, small town. So, the kind of things where students can maybe get a little bit more of an individual focus or they're surrounded by other, like, neuro-atypical students. So they can be like, "Well, this person clearly kind of is a part of this group that we've seen before." I think the fact that I was able to maintain a certain level of grades, that I wasn't crashing until certain parts of high school, did allow me to fly under the radar.Laura: Does your family know now that you have ADHD?Scott: No. I haven't talked to my parents much about it, honestly. Not that they would be opposed to that diagnosis. But I think a lot of times with parents, there can be a certain amount of guilt that something could have been troubling their child as they were growing up and they missed it or didn't know. And that's not necessarily fair, because we know so much more about ADHD now than we did even 10 years ago.Laura: I really feel everything you're saying. I grew up in the Midwest in a relatively small town and, you're right, I mean, we have to be fair. There's a lot more information about it now. And I feel you — sometimes I don't want to talk about it with my family because I don't want them to feel bad about anything, that, like, they did anything wrong.But I do wonder sometimes, you know, maybe it would be helpful if I were more open about it with my family, because sometimes I notice them struggling with some of these symptoms too. And I don't think they're as aware of it as I am.Scott: Being diagnosed as an adult, you have built up strategies on your own without even realizing it to cope with ADHD if you're not specifically getting therapy for it or using medication. And for some people it's a completely debilitating thing, and they cannot function. And for other people it's more insidious or confusing, but, you know, you work up strategies to get stuff done. And it can be kind of hard, for example, if you see the symptoms of that in your parents and they're in their 70s, to be, like, "You know, would a diagnosis at that point be helpful, because you've lived your whole life with this?" And being diagnosed at 35, I would say it is helpful. Like how useful to have an answer for a lot of questions that you didn't even know that you necessarily had.Laura: What treatments or treatment or strategies do you use to manage your ADHD?Scott: The thing that I was most hesitant to do was to take medication. And I think that's why I put off getting a formal diagnosis for so long, was because the idea of taking medication to be normal was not a great thought for me. Because I thought, well, if I take medication every day to get to baseline, where does that leave me? But that was a bad way to look at that. That was just my own neuroses. So eventually I was like, well, what do I have to lose? I should try medication to see if it helped. And I did try a couple of different things. And then eventually I got on to a stimulant medication, a relatively lower dosage that was extended release.It was just a game changer. And it's hard to describe the difference between your brain before and your brain after. But I think it can kind of be described as like somebody who puts on those colorblind glasses for the first time and they don't even know what they're not seeing. And then all of a sudden they're like, "Red! Holy crap, that's red, and that's green!"And that was me going through my email inbox, just being like, "I can organize this. I didn't even read this email. We're putting labels on stuff. This is great." Or just, like, looking at the dishes and being like, "I'm going to do those right now." Or arriving early for an appointment — that was great.Laura: What's that about?Scott: I don't know. It's like, "I'm not an hour early or an hour late to this."Laura: Good on you. I know that there's this myth, it's really pernicious, that's out there that, like, using medication is a crutch. I think it takes a lot of bravery to use medication as a tool. Scott: Absolutely. And it is so unfair to say that medication is a crutch. I challenge anybody who wears glasses, who wears braces, who drives a car — because, by the way, we can't go 80 miles an hour with our legs. There are things that we do every day in our life that make our lives a little simpler.Laura: Scott, are you ever impulsive?Scott: Yes. Extremely.Laura: Are you comfortable giving me some examples of that?Scott: Oh, sure. I won't give you all the examples. What are, like, the two halves that it kind of falls on? There's impulsivity, and then there's hyperactivity.Laura: Impulsivity and hyperactivity often go hand in hand, yeah. But impulse control is an executive function.Scott: Right? Which I lack. Yeah. I mean, I was always, like — especially during college and high school — I was bad with money. I was bad with money. My first paycheck from my fast-food Subway job, I was like, "I'm getting a PlayStation 2; I'm getting a game." It was, like, any money that was in my account was there to be spent on the first thing that kind of caught my fancy.I would start collecting things, like I would get all into that. Like, I started just collecting old Nintendo games during college, out of nowhere. And then pretty soon I had 300, and then I lost all interest in it.Laura: Oh, man. That sounds really fun, though.Scott: It was very fun until the thrill went away, and then I just had 300 Nintendo video games.Laura: You could probably get a lot of money for those these days.Scott: Yeah, absolutely.Laura: If you have Bubble Bobble or Bubble Boggle or whatever, I would buy that for me. I love that game.Scott: Oh, yes, Bubble Bobble. That game is amazing.Laura: You're an actor. I know, from what I've read about you, you do a lot of physical acting. Is that right? You use your body a lot in your acting. Scott: Yeah, I've got training in theater, focus in Shakespeare. And what I love to do was always like, zany, crazy clown, or play like 36 different roles. Like this one has a limp, this one has an eyepatch. Or some commedia dell'arte clowning stuff. The physical part of it was always really so helpful because when I would reach for that energy that I needed for the performance, it was there. And being an actor kind of checks off that acronym again, especially the urgency and the novelty. If you're in a play, if you're in a commercial, TV show, film, every day is different, and it's always urgent because if you forget your lines or screw up a take, yeah, there's pressure. There's pressure whether there's, like, a Broadway house of 1,500 people looking at you or if there's 35 guys in cargo shorts just like "Get the take so we can go to lunch" kind of thing. Laura: Scott, tell me what you love most about your ADHD brain. Scott: I love how creative it can make me. And I love that feeling when I get excited about something and I'm in the zone. It's kind of like an out-of-body experience where I'm so focused. This especially happens when I'm writing, because I write plays and screenplays and stuff. But when I'm just, like, writing dialogue and two characters are talking to each other, it's like I'm there just watching them talk. And that ability to really zone in and kind of lose myself in the details, it's just an incredible experience. Laura: Well, thank you so much for being here with me today, Scott. I am so grateful for your candor, for your insights, and I just really relate to you on so many levels. Thank you so much for being a champion for people with ADHD. Scott: This was such a great experience. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. And this is wonderful. Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha," from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash ADHD Aha. Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.  Jessamine: Hi, everyone.  Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening. 

When Yelling, Like ADHD, Runs in the Family

I come from a large family that likes to talk loud and yell even louder. As a child, I never noticed that we were any different from the other families in my neighborhood. Back then, I think everyone raised their voices: at the TV, at the umpire on the baseball field, and at their kids.Fast-forward to today. As a mother with two kids with learning and thinking differences, I feel like I’m replaying my childhood, and not in a good way. I’m losing my cool more often, and it’s taking a toll.My 12-year-old son has ADHD and executive functioning issues, like several members of our extended family. Just last week he had a huge soccer game in the city. I had to leave work early and rush home to pick him up. Then, I battled 45 minutes of bumper-to-bumper traffic to get to the game.As we finally pulled up to the field, I asked him to put on his soccer cleats. But they weren’t in his bag. They weren’t on his feet. They weren’t in the car. They were back at home.I lost it. I pulled over to the side of the road, ripped open his backpack, and started screaming.Why did you forget your cleats? How could you lose THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR UNIFORM? What were you thinking? You need to take more responsibility if you want to continue with this sport!I went on for at least 10 minutes. Exasperated and stressed out, I’m sure I was a scary sight. Red-faced, eyes bulging and arms flailing. A frightening mom. A monster, I dare say.My son burst into tears. Then, he started hitting himself, yelling that he was “stupid, stupid, stupid” and will “never be good at anything.”And that stopped me right in my tracks. I felt an overwhelming wave of guilt and shame. What have I done? What have I become? All the hard work our family has been doing to build my son’s self-esteem, confidence and trust in us was blown out the car window with all my hot air.I started crying too. I know remaining calm is better, but sometimes I just can’t help it.I climbed in the back seat with my son and tried to console him. But he wanted nothing from me. He’s older now. Trying to hug him and assure him all is well and that mom made a mistake is much harder than when he was little. Parents aren’t perfect. Parents of kids with learning and thinking differences can be even more fragile and imperfect at times.We’re trying to balance home and work life with the full-time job of supporting kids who struggle with reading, writing, math, organization and even anxiety. Sometimes we lose our cool in the most minor of situations. At times like this, we often wish we could rewind time and get a do-over.My son and I got through that horrible day. The solution was simple in hindsight—he borrowed a pair of soccer cleats from another player. And to try to prevent this from happening again, I vowed to create a checklist of everything we need for soccer.After the game, my son and I reviewed the wreckage over a milkshake at our favorite ice cream parlor. I spoke from the heart to my boy. I apologized to him for my poor behavior and losing my temper, and said I’d try to be better. I know yelling is not the answer.But I also explained that I couldn’t promise that it wouldn’t happen again. I was raised in a passionate, fiery family and that’s part of my DNA. He nodded, knowing that he also struggles with anger and strong emotions. You could say yelling, like ADHD, runs in our family.As we finished our milkshakes, I promised him, however, I will always be there for him and love him. Even when I lose my cool.Read about alternatives to yelling or raising your voice with your child. Learn how one mom got her child to listen without yelling. And watch as parents of kids with learning and thinking differences talk through tough topics like guilt, frustration and confusion about their kids’ future.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.

Depression, relationships, and the myth of the ADHD “superpower” (Max’s story)

Max Willey’s ADHD diagnosis has led him to a more stable life — and to seeing ADHD as a “glorious curse,” with downsides and upsides. Max Willey, an expat living in Norway, often found himself overwhelmed by complex tasks as a kid. There were too many moving parts, and his brain was always racing too fast. A teacher thought he might have ADHD. But it wasn’t until adulthood that Max was diagnosed “by accident.” He was feeling depressed and was struggling with some relationships. When he sought treatment, he was diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, and depression all at once. Max felt relieved. And he’s come to see ADHD as a “glorious curse.” It has its downsides — but also allows him to feel and do wonderful things.  Listen in as Laura and Max unpack this and more. Related resourcesADHD and creativityTrouble getting work done is real. Executive function challenges may be the culprit.ADHD and depressionEpisode transcriptJessamine: Hi, everybody. This is "ADHD Aha!" producer Jessamine. Before we get into the episode, I wanted to give you a heads-up that our guest, Max, shares his experience with depression. And there is a brief reference to suicidal ideation. Max's telling of his journey back from that dark period is important to his story, and we hope you will find it as insightful as we did.Max: Just recently, the realization that came to me was that I don't need to turn everything up to 11 in order for it to count. Sometimes it just needs to be showing up. These little things — they count. More than the gigantic, titanic, Herculean efforts. And with that, it's very liberating.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I am here today with Max Willey. Max is a content and video producer and expat living in Oslo, Norway. Max is also a listener who wrote in. And one of the things that stuck out to me in the letter that he sent in to our "ADHD Aha!" email address was that he referred to ADHD as a glorious curse. Welcome, Max. Thanks for being here today.Max: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.Laura: Let's get started with when were you diagnosed with ADHD? What was going on?Max: The official diagnosis occurred when I was 31.Laura: So that was a few years ago.Max: A few years ago. Unofficially, my first-grade elementary school teacher picked up on some unattentiveness, inability to complete tasks. And that was brought forth to my parents, but nothing was really done.Laura: Tell me more about what led you to get diagnosed when you were 31.Max: Well, let's see. The childhood symptoms were, I mean, a touch of hyperactivity. The main thing I remembered from kindergarten was just that complex instructions were very difficult, and I lost interest very quickly.But at the same time, I felt that everyone around me was going so slowly. Like, if it was something that interested me, then I just soaked it up like a sponge. If it was animals or planets or facts about UFOs, I just ate that up.But if it was following through on complex things, then I was hopeless. I still remember the very first project I didn't complete. It was the, you know, those little hand printed — like you traced your hand for the turkeys for Thanksgiving?Laura: Yeah.Max: There were just too many moving parts for me to really wrap my head around. I was like four and a half, five years old at that time. And I just remember having this uncompleted turkey on my desk for a week. It just sat there and it was this constant reminder of my first failure.Laura: Wow. That's kind of amazing how vividly you remember that.Max: It just stuck out to me. Perhaps because, like, I've gone back in my mind so many times, I've ruminated so many times about these things and just been like, that was a sign and I should have seen it.I remember reading comprehension and math were also big issues because it just felt like everyone was running circles around me. I just completely did not get it. Until I was put in — this was in third grade — I was put in remedial reading and math. And they just took everything at a snail's pace. And I just remember, wow, this is fun. I can do this.Laura: I wonder if there was a struggle with reading and math, or if it was the effort that needed to go into learning — the kind of, the ADHD symptoms around that? Or maybe a combination of both. Have you struggled with forgetfulness?Max: Oh, yes. That was one of the things that drove my mom crazy in particular. It has been a specter over my life — forgetfulness. And like it just built up to such a state where, like, sometimes I would forget a piece of paper. I'd forget a piece of homework. I would forget to do this thing, or I would forget that. I mean, all throughout my childhood.And it drove my mother crazy. She would ask me, "Why did you do this?" or "What happened?" I would tell her "I forgot." And she would either mock me and say "I forgot! I forgot!" like that, or say, "Max, I'm going to get you a tombstone. And it's going to say 'Max Willey, I forgot' on it."The problem was, I thought it was normal for parents to do that to their kids. It's been a point of contention for not just me and her, but me and other people. Forgetfulness is a big issue that I've had to tackle.Laura: I think a lot of times when we talk about people with ADHD and we talk about forgetfulness, I think what we're really talking about is trouble with working memory, which is related to executive functioning issues. People with ADHD, their brain makes it harder for them to have strong working memory.So you've been carrying around this information that you had been identified as potentially having ADHD when you were a kid. You remember these struggles. So what led you to get evaluated for ADHD as an adult? What was the turning point there?Max: Well, it happened actually by accident. Because I was originally being treated for depression. There was a period between 2016 and 2019 where I had a serious personal decline. I was stretching myself thin with freelance work. I was working with someone who was very cynical and exploitative, working for them almost every day, on top of working nearly full time at a part-time job. And also starting a master's degree, which I didn't finish.It was a lot. And throw in multiple failed personal relationships into the mix. That pushed me over the edge. But it was a slow decline, I would say, from the early 2010s. And I just got to a point where I was showing all the classic signs of depression. Lack of interest in things, rumination, ideation of suicide, poor sleeping habits, poor eating habits, not exercising. It all just balled into one.And I was just like — I was in such a hole that I was just like, I can't keep going on like this. I need to get help. And so I went to the doctors. My general practitioner told them what was happening and they immediately fast-tracked me to a therapist's office. I was screened for different symptoms, and they identified ADHD. Plus generalized anxiety and depression.Laura: How did it feel? That's a lot of diagnoses to receive at one time. How did that feel?Max: I felt actually relieved. As crappy as I was still feeling, I was happy that I was getting help. I have this range of like mood from like 100 being like, you're living your most ideal, perfect life. It's heaven. Zero? Dead. You're gone. You don't exist. Like I went from 40% to at the end of the treatment, around 70%. So far, more stable. Still a long road ahead.I went through group therapy for ADHD. I actually met some people that I knew that I was surprised that they were there. I was like, What, you're here? You're one of the best people in your class. Like, that's a surprise. And they're like, Yeah, like, likewise. You know, I just. I didn't expect you to be here. It was fun to have that kind of camaraderie. And it was very nice to know that a lot of the symptoms that I was having were quite normal.Laura: Right. And to see them and people, it sounds like, who you admired or were in your eyes high achieving. Probably a good reminder that you can thrive with ADHD.So one thing I remember, Max, when we had our initial interview, you were like, my view of ADHD isn't all sunshine and roses, right? I remember you talked about the glorious curse, which I guess isn't totally a negative thing because you've got this word "glorious" there. I want to hear you articulate what you mean by ADHD as a glorious curse.Max: Absolutely. In my research of ADHD, I have heard more people than I can count call it a superpower. And the term just seems so saccharine sweet and just so like Oh, we're going to have fun. Whee! You know, just like — and I just was like, it's not a superpower. I mean, it's a curse.Because here's the thing. The glorious part is it opens up vistas of creativity and energy and dynamism that people just don't understand. Like when you are fired up, you get fired up. You just can do all the things. You feel like you have divine inspiration. The gods have just shone down a light upon you, and you are at the very center of what you were meant to be. It shows you that, off in the distance, off on the horizon. This glorious city in the clouds.But between you and that is a deep valley of sharp rocks and obstacles that you have to get through to get there. It's like the ADHD part oftentimes makes it impossible — or not impossible, but just very, very difficult and tedious to get there. So that's where the curse part comes in.It's glorious in that you can see the potential of who you can be, or even just things that just light your heart on fire. Brings out the best in you. But at the same time, it's like trying to sprint up a mountain with the ball and chain. So that's how I feel about that.Laura: Very — really beautiful imagery that you use to describe that, too. It really resonates with me. I feel like a good manifestation of this glorious curse is something that you described to me when we originally talked, which you actually had mentioned as being a big "aha" moment for you: writing your thesis.Max: Yes. I took my very first bachelor in humanities at the University of Oslo. And usually you have a year and a half to do your thesis. They clear your schedule and they just say, Just do that. And I took almost three years to get it done, because it was all of the things that hamper completing a task through — following it through.It was just the task was a bit complex. I was doing it by myself. And the longer I went without contacting my advisor, the more pressure I felt to deliver. And also fear of his wrath that was just building exponentially with every week, with every unanswered email. I just felt the pressure increase. And so I delayed. And I finished it and handed it in four minutes before the deadline. And that was my last chance.And one of the biggest symptoms, one of the biggest things that stood out to me was — aside from the things I mentioned, where the putting the pressure on myself and expectations from my advisor and just this pressure to deliver this perfectionism — was it again boiled down to my reading comprehension was too slow for my brain. And it — just like sitting there in a quiet environment, just like reading sentence after sentence. And then just my brain felt like I was holding my breath underwater. And you know that feeling when you just try practicing holding your breath for as long as you can, and it starts burning in your lungs? That's what it felt like in my brain.So it was frustrating. It was very, very difficult. It was a topic that I loved, too. And it was it was just so interesting. But the thing is that when you get into the nuts and bolts of it — doing the actual work — that's when the passion can evaporate. That's when you'd be like, I have to set up a schedule to actually do these things. I have to write two pages a night. It turns into work. It goes from being a passion and an interest to being an obligation.You know, a lot of people can say like, Oh, that's childish. Then you're not serious enough. Or you know, grow up, which I've heard before. But it's like that's the point for a lot of people where they fall off. And then it's like, I can't do this. I'm giving up.Laura: This race to the finish line. Handing in your thesis four minutes before it's due. I mean, that to me is exactly what you described with the glorious curse. You're sprinting up a mountain with a ball and chain. All of this was happening during what you called that decline time period that led up to your ADHD diagnosis, right?Max: Just before, I would say. Like it was this in-between phase where I graduated from my second bachelor, in media and communication studies. It started around there where one personal relationship ended very badly. And then I just had a string of bad relationships. And it really affected me because I had a lot of guilt.But the depression part — one of the main like points where I've ruminated on in that dark period was just like, You never follow through. You never complete tasks. You're never going to be anything. You are going to be surrounded by a graveyard of dreams. And that's essentially what I was feeling at the darkest points. It was like being awake at three in the morning. So tired but my brain is just on. And I was just thinking of all the points in my past where I could have changed things. Or thinking about how I'm never going to amount to anything because I never complete anything.Laura: Wow, that's really powerful. So you've got anxiety and depression kind of feeding off of and ruminating on what are essentially ADHD symptoms. So you're ruminating about your difficulty with these kind of every day.Max: Yes.Laura: Executive function skills, completing tasks.Max: And even up until that point, before my diagnosis, I just thought it was a personal failing. I just thought it was me. I had notes dating back to like 2011. Like "goals for my life" type thing. One of which was "Learn to be consistent. Follow through on tasks." Like on sticky notes I would have on my chalkboard.Laura: Oh my gosh, I did the exact same thing.Max: Yeah. God, why are we like this?Laura: Well, these like, giant ideas I've evolved from, you know, sticky notes to, like, emailing them to myself because that doesn't put any pressure on you to have an email to yourself that says, "Figure out next five years." Or like, "Get better at focusing" or whatever. It's like kind of this all-or-nothing approach, right? Where it's like we're not allowing ourselves — maybe because it's so difficult to break down tasks — we're not allowing ourselves to take these things in chunks. And instead it just looks like this big, giant gray cloud of things we will never get to.Max: The I think most destructive aspect of it, from what I've experienced, is like the older you get, the more that you rely on friends, on your financial stability, your health. And all of these things needs to be maintained. So I mean, that has always been a challenge for me.And like especially in the last few years when I was diagnosed with depression, you know, there are times where you just want to vent to a friend. You just want to meet up with someone that you feel safe with. And you just want to talk about everything that's on your mind, talk about what's in your heart.But for me, that was difficult because I realized that I have not maintained friendships, because I was under the presumption that if you get along with someone, you know, that connection will be there. Right? And I mean, at least in my twenties, I never really considered that maintaining friendships required effort. I always was under the presumption, very naive presumption, that like, oh, we've got chemistry. It'll come back like that. No.And that really was a bitter awakening in the last few years, just wanting to talk to someone who isn't your therapist, who isn't your significant other, who is not your parents, and just dump all of the stuff out on a table. And not just like talking about your problems, but also growing, you know, becoming an adult parallel with your friends. That's something that, you know, is very, very important, I think. And no one tells you that you have to maintain friendships. Growing up, at least no one told me. So that's — that was one of the things that really hit me in the teeth.If you find people of value in your life, you do need to touch base with them often. It's just I've never been good at consistency. So it's more of just the repetition of that effort has always been difficult, because then that falls into the routine. It's less novel and interesting, and it just kind of falls into the routine. Like the thought of maintaining something is just like, ugh, work. It's automatically in a work category and then it no longer becomes fun. I mean, this limiting mindset, that's kind of how I approached friendships for a while.One of the things that I realized just very recently, and this has been in due part to therapy, is that the reason why I was so averse to things like maintaining effort, maintaining fitness, or maintaining financial health or, you know, maintaining friendships, is that my presumption of what it takes to do that work has always been skewed. It has been contaminated by a perfectionist mindset, an all-or-nothing mindset, that any effort that you do has to be turned up to 111 in order for it to count.And with that corrupted mindset, every time I thought of doing work to maintain these things, I immediately was just like, I'm too tired. I cannot do this. Because I assumed that the effort it took was this monumental effort. But something that my therapist told me was that — it was more of a rhetorical question. She asked me, like, with those things, those assignments at work or the effort it requires to maintain certain habits or hobbies. Could you have done any better there and then with the knowledge that you had? And I was like, obviously not. I mean, I did the best I could. And she's like, There you go. You did the best you could with the knowledge you had.And that changed my mind is that maintaining things, half of the battle is showing up. And just recently, the realization that came to me was that I don't need to turn everything up to 11 in order for it to count. Sometimes it just needs to be showing up. Or sending a message to a friend. Sending them a funny meme or gif or saying, Hey, what's up? You know, just like what's new in your life? These little things, they count more than the gigantic, titanic, Herculean efforts. And with that, it's very liberating. And with that, it's more hopeful, I think.Laura: So, Max, you're here talking with me now, which means that you have a level of self-awareness. You're aware of your diagnoses. You're aware of what you're struggling with. I know that you've got coping strategies in place now. And am I right that you even can joke about some of this now?Max: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, that's the best part is just like my girlfriend. We've been together for five years, and she knows better than most the struggles, but also the humor. And we joke constantly about it. Early in our relationship I told her that, like, I envision my ADHD as a tiny baboon in a control center. He's watching stuff on his phone or got like 20 tabs open. And he's just like going from one thing to the next. He pushes a button here and there. Or he gets hyperfocused on one thing and just like lets the whole thing just melt down.It's easier sometimes to laugh at it — only if you are trying to fix it. Like if you're trying to actually deal with it, then yeah, sure, you can laugh. That's the thing. Like now I'm a grown-ass man, you know, it's on me to fix this.Laura: Do you need to fix it, or do you need to cope?Max: Well, I mean, yeah, maybe a little bit of both. You know, find strategies that work.Laura: I like that better, Max. You use the language that you want, but I like that better. I'm just telling you.Max: Yeah, OK. Healthier.Laura: Max, it's been really nice to talk with you today. I really appreciate your perspective. I love the imagery, the beautiful images that you use. And I appreciate your realism. I think it's necessary.Max: Thank you for this opportunity to talk with you. Just one parting point I think I'd like to make is just that life can be very beautiful with ADHD. I'm not trying to have this like, "oh, poor me" type mentality, you know. And it can be a very powerful tool if wielded correctly.My hope for other people is that they do have an opportunity to find a balance between the gloriousness of the curse so that they can actually get to those perfect vistas that they envision for themselves.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission."ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi, everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

ADHD and related behaviors

Many people know ADHD involves trouble with focus. They may also know ADHD often includes struggles with hyperactivity and impulse control. But many people are surprised to learn that ADHD plays a role in lots of other behaviors too. Learn about ADHD and these behaviors and situations: AggressionAngerAnxietyBedwettingBoredomCheatingClass clownsCreativityDepressionEating disordersEmotionsFalling in loveGriefLyingMessinessMood swingsOversharingPerfectionismRejectionRemorseRisky behaviorSleep issuesScreen timeThe myth of lazinessWishful thinkingWays to helpUnderstanding how ADHD affects behavior is a great first step. Ready to dive deeper? Explore these tools and tips:Parents and caregivers: Use contracts to help kids follow rules.Educators: Get a list of classroom accommodations for ADHD.Adults: Learn about workplace supports for ADHD and executive functioning issues.

ADHD and creativity (Kenny’s story)

Kenny Friedman is a creative director with ADHD. ADHD-related boredom is his superpower. Kenny Friedman is a creative director with ADHD who’s driven to constantly do more and better. And yet he calls himself an underachiever. (Stay tuned to the 18-minute mark for a mini “aha” moment on that.)Kenny has been diagnosed with ADHD twice, but his true ADHD “aha” came after his second diagnosis. He realized ADHD is actually what makes him so creative and great at his job. Yes, ADHD has its ups and downs. But for Kenny, his ability to get bored quickly allows him to always be innovating and improving his ideas. Kenny grew up as the class clown and still holds that title today. Join a conversation with Kenny and host Laura Key on ADHD and creativity. Also in this episode: Is there a connection between punk rock and ADHD?Related resourcesADHD and creativityADHD and boredomThe 3 areas of executive function Episode transcriptKenny: I realize that my superpower is ADHD. It's a good thing for me, and it's the thing that helps me create and get bored and then come up with something new and see things at that speed that I need to to do what I do. And I realize for me, I need ADHD to be the person and the creative that I am. Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. I'm here today with Kenny Friedman. Kenny is a creative director who lives in the Chicago area. So let's get started, Kenny. Tell me about your diagnosis. When were you diagnosed? How old were you? What was going on at that time? Kenny: I actually had two different diagnoses — two different points in my life. The first one was when I was about 11 or 12. It was right around when people started realizing that ADHD was a thing, and I was that classic underachiever in school. And I got diagnosed. It was weird. I don't really remember it because it was so long ago. But I remember going to neurologists and things and going through all the tests, and then I was prescribed medication at that time. So I think I started that in either end of fifth grade or the beginning of sixth grade. Laura: And around — I don't want to give away your age if you don't want to. But when was that? What year? Kenny: That would have been like '85? It was either in fifth or sixth grade. So it was around '84, '85. Laura: OK, great. Well, I'll do the math at home later. I'm just kidding. Kenny: I'm like 23. Laura: Yeah, 23-year-old Kenny. So you said you were acting out. Can you give me an example of how you were acting out? Kenny: I mean, I've always been and still am, I guess, in a way, the class clown. And I think it came from — I was bored in school and I needed to entertain myself. So anything from cracking jokes to doing weird things to like literally getting up in class and walking around. I would often leave class. I would, you know, finish an hourlong test in like 15 minutes and then leave for 45, just because I couldn't sit there. So that was the only thing I knew how to do is to go to the bathroom or pretend to go to the bathroom for 45 minutes. And, you know, after a while, teachers didn't like that, I suppose. Laura: Was it teachers who were noticing behavior like that who recommended an evaluation? Kenny: Yeah, my teachers definitely noticed it. My parents probably did. I know my mom, she's older, so she's never been confirmed, but she's more ADHD than I am, I would say, just based on the way that she is and her impulse control and things like that. But it was really obvious. And then if you compare me to my sibling, we were very different. So I was definitely the one that was acting out and getting in trouble. Laura: How did your parents react to your evaluation, getting diagnosed? Were they mad at you for acting out? Were they supportive? Kenny: My parents were definitely mad at me for acting out because I was underachiever. Because I would test well in the tests that I was taking and honestly leaving early. But I was then not doing as good in school. So that was a constant struggle. And because all my report cards would say — literally all of them said — if Kenny spent half the time on his school that he did acting out, he would be getting straight A's. So they were supportive. But that said, they were also going through a divorce. So I don't think I was the focus, and I think having me diagnosed was a nice thing for them to understand and it was one less thing for them to have to deal with during that. Also, my father was a pharmacist, so he got it right away, the need for medication and all that. Laura: At that age, were you aware of what you had been diagnosed with? Did you have a name for it or not? Kenny: When I was diagnosed, I mean, it was — so again, it was a long time ago. And I think my belief is that that's when the conversation about ADD and ADHD started. So I was given both of those titles. I had no idea what it was. There was another kid in my class who went through testing, and I remember they said, "Oh, no, he doesn't have ADHD. He just eats too much sugar." Which I don't even know if it's a thing, but you know that. Laura: It's a mess. Kenny: Yeah, that's what was going on at the time is he didn't have it, so it must be sugar. So I didn't really know what it was. I knew that I was different than everybody else because I was the only person that had this at the time. I didn't really understand it. I know that it spoke to the reasons why I was doing the things I was doing, but there was no understanding like there is now. You know, I literally — I don't think I met anybody else with an ADHD diagnosis until I was maybe in college, or maybe after. Laura: How does that make you feel? You said you felt different. Did you feel like you stood out? Did you feel like you fit in? What was going on with you? Kenny: I mean, I've always not necessarily cared about fitting in, so it didn't hurt in any way. I was always in scenes, that — I mean, I was a punk. So not fitting in was probably a good thing. Laura: That's really interesting to me. I had a little kind of flirtation with punk scene in high school and college, and I don't know, is there any connection to like ADHD mindset and the punk scene as you see it? Kenny: Probably. I bet you a lot of the people in the punk scene skew towards ADD or something, right? Because in that scene, there's a huge DIY movement. And I do think for me, one of the things that I see is I got bored, so I would need to do things myself. So it wasn't necessarily DIY, but I think a lot of people I know that are musical are, you know, ADD, ADHD, and there is that whole movement of doing things yourself. And I think when you have that brain that's always going, you need to find something to do yourself so you can put that energy into something good and kind of stop the madness of the brain. Laura: That's really interesting. I never thought about it that way. And when you said that, the first thing that came to my mind is like how short punk songs often are. Kenny: Yeah, they are short. I say that I like to go see a band whose songs are like two and a half minutes long, but then like they're like under 2 minutes. And again, I don't know if it's just the music that I like, but one of the worst musical experiences of my life was going to a Dead show, because then you go, and there's this song that's 5 minutes long, and it just goes on forever — for like 30 minutes. And it's like, I get it. And it's technically a great solo, but that could have been seven songs. Laura: Yeah, move on. Kenny: Yeah, I'm done. And that gets to that — like, again, I don't know if it's connected. I only know my brain as my brain. But yeah, I get bored. Like the world that I'm in right now, you know, I'm in the creative field and that ability to get bored quickly helps me. Probably helps musicians. It probably helps other people with ADHD that are in the creative field, because they get bored quickly and they do their thing and then they move on to the next thing and they keep growing. Laura: I went to a Sonic Youth show in my teens and there was like 10 minutes of plucking the same guitar note. And then I was just like, I about lost my mind. Kenny: It's funny you say that because you'd think I'd like Sonic Youth because it was in the whole thing, but it was — their songs are too long. Laura: They're so long. They're great. They're so long. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're obviously like making a lot of bleeps here about ADHD in music, but it's still interesting to talk about it and like it pertains to your life and to a smaller degree, probably my life. When we first started chatting, you mentioned you had two diagnoses. And so we talked about the fifth or sixth grade one. What's the other one? Kenny: When I was in sixth grade, I was diagnosed and they prescribed Ritalin for me, and it didn't really work for me. I probably only took it for six months. From 12 to about 27, 28, I was unmedicated, and I just learned how to be me off of medication. But then I got a job at a brand and it was — the life there was very corporate. And that was a time where I realized, OK, having ADHD is a hurdle to me. Like all throughout my life, it wasn't necessarily a hurdle, but in this case it wasn't a good thing. It was very obvious that I was very different. So I went and I got diagnosed again because I wanted to get medicated for it so I can work through like these long meetings and the expectations that the people at this company had for me. I was prescribed medication and it helped me in that environment, helped me in that corporate environment. And I think most people are in environments where it does help them. But for me, in this creative environment where I had to keep coming up with ideas, I felt like that part of my brain just wasn't firing on all cylinders. So I stopped taking it again. Switched jobs for many reasons, but I haven't felt that same sense of "You're not the same" since I left that job. And I think it's because in my industry, in the creative industry, in the ad industry, the marketing and all that kind of industry, my gut is — and again, this is stereotyping — but my gut is that a lot of people from generations before and generations before in that industry, the creatives, probably a large amount of them had ADHD. I know quite a few now that do, so there are built-in checks and balances that help them. And what I mean by that is we have producers and project managers to make sure that we get things done. I mean, that's not all they're doing. They're doing a lot more. But like one of the things is I have a producer who used to send me meetings to look at certain emails because they knew that I wouldn't look at my emails because I'd forget. And that's what they do is they help drive the project along. And I think they're that part of the brain that I just don't have access to, which is organization and, you know, some of that executive functioning that we talk about. Laura: Yeah. Shout-out to all the producers and project managers. Jessamine, I think you may be listening since you produced the show. Shout-out! Kenny: I literally can't do my job if I don't have a good producer, project manager, because it's something that I can't do. Or I can do but it would take so much time and energy out of it because it's just not native to me, because it's not the way that I think. And so I always look for that strength of somebody. And anytime I have a great one, I sell more because it's just not the way that I'm wired. Laura: Between those two diagnoses — getting diagnosed with ADHD as a child and then again as an adult — setting aside that ADHD medication works really well for some folks, not for others. It wasn't a fit for you, it sounds like. But like through all of — through that journey, I mean, where was your "aha" moment in all of that? Kenny: I think my "aha" moment — my true "aha" moment — was after my second diagnosis. And I think I realized that my personal superpower is having ADHD. I think it helps me in my career. The moment came when I realized that ADHD is an advantage for me, because I think it helps me ideate better, faster, come up with more ideas. I think a lot of it has to do with I get bored really quickly. So, not that I necessarily need to throw something away, but I want to make it better because it's already boring me. So if it's boring me, is it going to bore the person that's looking at this? I can come to conclusions quicker. I don't need all the information. So I think for me, having ADHD and self-medicating with a lot of coffee works really good and has helped me get to be who I am. Laura: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I do — I want to talk more about being a creative director. What you're saying makes a lot of sense about the creativity that's needed. Like it's a good thing almost to be bored and to want to try new things and to try new and artful ways to develop things. Is there a fine line there? Does it ever lead to a obsessiveness about like, OK, I'm done, I want to try something new or I want this to be perfect, I need this to be perfect. Does that ever come up for you yet? Kenny: Yeah. You can never get perfection in this industry. And what I mean by that is everything can always be a little bit better. And you have a timeline because something has to go out and you know it's going to go out Friday end of day. So there's this compulsive to get it better and you always want to get it better, and then you have to be fine with it at Friday at 4:59 because you know that it needs to get out. Like we always want to get stuff better. Then at some point we have to be like, OK, this is good enough. It has to get out or it's not going to air. So up until there, we're spending all our time to make everything perfect and great and awesome. And at some point the color isn't going to go to absolute perfection, but nobody is going to know because it's absolutely beautiful already.Laura: So you sound pretty levelheaded about it. Kenny: Yeah. I mean, it's part of the process and you have to — you know, I've been doing this for a long time and you have to learn what battles to fight. Laura: Maybe I like obsessiveness and like that fine line. I guess it's more of a curiosity that I have, and pardon my bluntness because I think I do this too. But do you ever think you maybe drive people nuts? Like, if you want it to be perfect, then you get so hyperfocused on something that other folks may not be paying attention to? Kenny: Yes, I absolutely drive people nuts. My creative partner would probably describe me as completely exhausting, but also super creative and collaborative. But I wake up going 100 miles an hour and I drink a lot of coffee. I think it settles me down. He thinks it doesn't, and he's on the West Coast. So by the time he wakes up, he's got a hundred slacks and he gets hit with all this stuff. I'm either like off or on, and I'm usually not off. And when I'm on, I'm going like a hundred miles an hour. That said, I think I'm super empathetic to people and pretty open, pretty collaborative, and I'm still that class clown and goofball. I try to pare it back, but that's never going away. And I speak over people a lot. How are those things? Yeah, yeah. I always speak over people and I'm like, it's not because I'm not interested. It's not because I'm trying to shut you up. It's just I can't not do that. Laura: Kind of like what I just did to you. Yes. My bad. How are you the class clown today at work? Give me an example. Kenny: I will constantly, on calls, take screengrabs of my creative partner and Photoshop him into weird situations and then send them to him. I do it because it's me goofing off and trying to make him laugh. But it's also — I can pay attention to this meeting that we're having and not do anything. You won't get my full attention, but if I'm doing something that I don't have to think about — and for me, Photoshop is something I really don't have to think about, so I can absolutely screengrab him, go find an image of Pirates of Caribbean, put him on the Pirates of Caribbean ride and create a little gif. And to me that's just such a natural thing and doesn't really take a lot of thought. I'm able to focus better on the meeting when I'm doing that than if I was just like focusing on the meeting. Because right now I'm playing with a Lego. I have all these Legos here and I need to be doing something if I'm going to actually focus. Laura: I want to hear more from you about ADHD and creativity, because we've been bouncing around it and I know it's related to your "aha" moment. So I just want to hear more from you. How does ADHD and creativity intersect for you? What does it feel like? Kenny: It's hard for me to take ADHD and creativity and disconnect them. Ever since I was a kid, I was into drawing and then I got into photography and then I got into art direction. But I've always been doing something creative. And I think it was a way to have my brain work. As a kid, I was always able to concentrate if I was drawing. Or in college, when I was going to school for photography, I would literally spend all day in the darkroom and working on the tiniest thing. I could do that all day and just work on one image for 10, 12, 14 hours. So for me, it's probably something that helps rein in my ADHD. Like I've been doing what I've been doing for over 20 years now, creative direction, art direction. And that is big for me, because it keeps my brain interested. And like I said, the checks and balances that we have — the people like producers and project managers that make it so I can stay in this business because they help me create by giving me that structure. That's pretty amazing to me, because I think a lot of times people with ADHD, you know, we're underachievers. We're not seen in school as somebody who's going to become something, going to make it. We're seen as the problem. I know, you know, I switched schools in 10th grade and I went to a school that was more — I'd say like any school in "Pretty in Pink." And I was like Duckie. And then they actually called me Duckie. But, you know, it was that kind of, you know, everybody was put together. And every — like my graduating class, they had to send letters to every school saying, like, even though this person's in the bottom 20% of the class, they still have an A, you know, a 4.0. But most people have a five or, you know, because they took all these extra credit classes or whatever it was. And so that's what I was living with. So I was seen as somebody who like "Kenny is not going to make it." And I think that's what people saw in me. But through what I do and the magic of this industry and the kind of people that it brings, I've been doing this for 20 years and I love it. I'm still going and I'm probably creating better stuff now than I was 20 years ago. Laura: Yeah, you say that and it makes me want to ask: Do you really think you're an underachiever? Kenny: Yeah, I do think I'm an underachiever. Laura: You do? Kenny: Yeah, I still do. I always think I can do better. I have these projects, too, that I take on that I want to do. I made these shirts that were like using letterpress type and printing with it, kind of a different way to print shirts. And I wanted to create something from that, like a company from that. And I got bored. So I sat. Like sold like 100 and I was like, yeah, did it. Bored. And I've done that several times where I create something. My wife laughs at me. I have a new one that I'm doing and she's like, OK. It involves working with fire hose. So I just bought like a bunch of fire hose coming to my house on Friday and I'm going to cut that up and work with it. But she knows there's a good chance that that fire hose is going to be one project and then lay, you know, somewhere. So, yeah, I still have that underachiever, underdog mentality. And maybe that's what keeps pushing me, but I absolutely feel that I underachieve. Laura: Yeah, we don't really know each other. But listening to you, I don't hear underachiever. I hear someone — the things I wrote down you were saying were "I always want to do better." That's not what an underachiever would say in my mind. What you described was somebody who has trouble completing tasks, which is an ADHD-related behavior, but not a willful lack of like trying. Kenny: Yeah, no, it's interesting because it's kind of making me tear up, honestly, because, like, oh, you know, and I'm thinking about it. And I think to be told that you're underachiever of the things that kids, especially at my age, were told, is probably like not the worst thing that people are being told. But I was told that my whole life. Teachers that had my sibling in class is like, why can't you be like them in math? And I think I was technically better at math, but math bored me. So like, that's why I can't be better. And I took drums for a while and I was never as good. So I like quit drums after eight lessons because I knew I'd never get to be as good as them. So I've always kept that. And so maybe it is true that the things that you were told as a kid, like never get out of your brain. But yeah, I still carry that. Laura: I see that. I think that's really common to carry the things that we're told as kids. That made me emotional as well, honestly, Kenny. Because that's just — I don't know. If you're on my side of it, I'm just — all I'm hearing is like desire to achieve. Desire to achieve, but not for like grandiose things, but because that's just who you are. You're a creator, you want to do things. So to me, it's like the opposite of laziness and underachieving, you know? Kenny: And then honestly, part of it is while I know that we've created something awesome, you know, we concept and it's like awesome. And we're now shooting and it's awesome and now we're producing it and editing and it's awesome. But there comes this point where I'm still into it, obviously, but I'm also interested in what's coming next. What are we doing next? So while this being completed, I care more about what's coming next. So again, my brain doesn't stop. I want to know what we're going to do because I'm already bored of this. So like, let's get on to this and let's make this next thing that we do even better than the thing that we're working on now. Laura: Except for this interview, though, I'm sure you're never thinking about the next thing in the midst of. Kenny: No, I'm not thinking about the next interview. I'm actually thinking about my son who's about to make a lot of noise on his drums. Laura: I was just going to ask you about your son, actually. Do you think that your experiences growing up, like, has it molded how you parent today? Won't you be more gentle with him than perhaps others were with you? Kenny: That's a complicated question, to be honest. So like I said earlier, my parents got divorced, I guess officially when I was 12, and I didn't want to see my father. I had to technically on and off for a bit. So kind of talk about how like the years that mattered, I didn't have a dad. He is that age now. He's 12. So this experience is in a way new to me, but I'm seeing it from the flip side. And he is a mini me. He is into music more than art, but he does like art and he's got some executive function problems. He's a little bit of a class clown. He was not diagnosed with ADHD, but he was on the border. And you look at him and he is exactly like I am. And so it's really interesting. But I also try to not throw my views onto him. I try to let him just be him and not put him in the world of what I am, even though we're very similar. Laura: Sounds like he's really creative, like you. Kenny: Yeah, he definitely. He's very creative, but more in a musical sense. I mean, he was playing drums and he just added bass and hopefully he'll be in a huge band and make billions of dollars. Laura: Yeah. Make sure his songs aren't too long so that we can focus on them. Kenny: That's a great thing is he also likes the music I like and so they are shorter songs, and we talk about that. And my wife likes pop music and she liked the Dead back in the day. So he definitely doesn't have that, which is nice. Laura: Kenny, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you today. I really enjoyed it. Kenny: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for your time. It's really good talking to you, and thanks for having me on. Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

My kids have both autism and learning and thinking differences, and it’s complicated

I have three children. Two of my kids have autism, two have learning and thinking differences, and one has neither. That sounds like the beginning of a brain teaser or a logic puzzle, but it’s not. It’s just my reality.Recently, my younger son was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder in addition to his ADHD and sensory processing issues. I’m still in shock from his autism diagnosis. And my shock surprises me. That’s because he’s not my first child to receive an autism diagnosis.My older son was diagnosed the other way around — Asperger’s syndrome first, and then we learned later he has executive functioning issues, too. I didn’t struggle with his autism diagnosis. In fact, I was relieved when he was finally diagnosed.Before he was diagnosed, we didn’t have a way to frame his struggles. It was a years-long process of evaluation and of him struggling in school before we had some answers. So I was relieved that he could finally get the supports and services he needed.I was also relieved because none of us had to feel so alone anymore. There was an entire community of parents like us and kids like him.Why was I relieved with our older son’s diagnosis, but now reeling with our younger son’s?Our younger son’s autism diagnosis came two years after he was diagnosed with ADHD. I felt like we’d already found our place with him in the learning and thinking differences community. But then autism was added to the mix. Now I’m not sure which community I relate to.There’s definitely some overlap of symptoms between his autism and learning and thinking differences. For instance, we’re not sure if our younger son’s sensory issues are related to his ADHD, to his autism, or both. His issues with impulsivity and social skills could be a sign of either, too. But some things, like his intense interests in everything about cars and trains, are clearly traits of autism.I don’t know if I’d feel this way if he had, say, ADHD and asthma, like Understood blogger Kerri MacKay. She has both and is an advocate in both communities. But that seems much more clear-cut and easier to sort. Asthma-related symptoms are caused by asthma. ADHD symptoms are caused by ADHD.People send me links to all the cool stories and research studies about autism because they think it might interest me “as a parent.”They also send me links about learning and thinking differences because they think it might interest me “because of what you do for work.” (I’m a former teacher and early intervention specialist, and a parent advocate.)But it’s not that simple. My sons are uniquely themselves. They have challenges that create challenges for me as a parent — challenges that other parents have faced and might be able to help me through.If I’m looking for help, it doesn’t matter if the resources and support I find helpful are autism-specific or ADHD-specific. If it works, it works. If people understand me, they understand me.I don’t want my kids to have to leave pieces of themselves behind. I want them to find support wherever people understand them.I don’t want to have to choose one community over another. And even though my experience is unique, I know there are other families like mine. I don’t want any other parents to feel like they have to choose, either.I think making that happen starts with greater understanding that kids can have both autism and learning and thinking differences. They can have two very separate conditions that need different interventions. But they can’t separate out the different pieces of themselves and put them in neat categories.It would be so much less frustrating if we could sort our kids’ symptoms into an “autism box” and a “learning and thinking differences box.” But we can’t because they blend together.I have three children. Two of my kids have autism, two have learning and thinking differences, and one has neither. Three of them have the ability to make me laugh, make me proud, make me cry, and make me crazy. And they all deserve to belong to any group of kids like them, even if they don’t fit neatly into any one group.

ADHD in girls: Overlooked?

ADHD is just as common in girls as it is in boys. So why are girls diagnosed less often? And why do signs of ADHD in girls tend to get overlooked? ADHD is just as common in girls as it is in boys. So why are girls diagnosed less often? And why do signs of ADHD in girls tend to get overlooked? In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Bob Cunningham hear from parents who initially missed signs of ADHD in their daughters. They also hear from a fellow Understood team member about being diagnosed with ADHD at 30 and how it changed her perception of herself.Listen in. Then:Learn more about ADHD in girls.Get a personal take from a young woman about ADHD and anxiety, and the signs she overlooked.Subscribe to In It on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts.Episode transcriptAmanda: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin. I'm a writer with Understood.org, a parent to kids who learn differently, and a former teacher.Bob: And I'm Bob Cunningham. I'm a career educator and parent, as well as executive director for learning development at Understood.Amanda: And we are "In It."Bob: This is a podcast from Understood. On this show, we hear from parents, caregivers, and sometimes kids, and we'll offer support and advice for families whose kids are struggling with reading, math, focus, and other learning and thinking differences. Amanda: Today, we're talking about ADHD in girls and why it can so easily get overlooked and underdiagnosed. Amanda: Bob, if you were to ask, say, a random person what they picture when they think of a kid with ADHD, what do you think they'd say? Bob: I think they'd tell you a hyperactive boy, can't sit still, disruptive, those kinds of things. Amanda: Yeah, that's definitely the perception of ADHD that most people have. But there's a few things wrong with that picture. First of all, girls have ADHD too. It's more commonly diagnosed in boys, but girls also have it. Bob: And second, while some girls do have that hyperactive kind of ADHD, most of the time it presents differently. Here's how one mom describes it. Christine: So she can be in class and be totally out to lunch. You know, her mind can be elsewhere and she can look like she's completely obedient and sitting there and polite and all that stuff, but her mind can just wander. Amanda: That's Christine talking about her daughter Siobhan, who is 11. For a long time, Christine thought Siobhan was just, you know, a daydreamer and maybe a bit defiant, since trying to get her to do something so often went like this. Christine: Siobhan, can you please set the table? I've just asked you 10 times to stop doing what you're doing and you're sitting there staring into a book on your bed. Homework, same thing. You know, redirect, redirect, redirect, redirect. Amanda: It took some time before Christine considered that maybe this wasn't a matter of Siobhan being stubborn or of bad behavior. Maybe it was something else. Bob: She wishes it hadn't taken her so long to get there. And she hopes other parents can learn from her experience. Amanda: Can you tell us a little bit about Siobhan and what she's like? Christine: Sure. So she is 11 years old. She's in sixth grade. She's very social. She's into art and drawing and stuff like that. She has always been a bookworm. She'll reread the same book a million times. Harry Potter, the whole series has been read probably, like I have lost track. And she likes to make up stories, too. You know, she can sometimes write some down, but writing is not a strength and so she'll tell them to me. And when we go for a walk or something in the park, she can start talking. And it almost sounds like she's reading the pages of a book because the story is just spinning in her head. Amanda: What about that said to you, "Oh, ADHD." Or did it? Christine: It really comes from the daydreamy aspect of her. That can really be a problem in a school setting, in a trying to get homework done setting, and a trying to keep the household running setting. You know, she said to me once after her math teacher, I think in fourth or fifth grade was complaining that, you know, she's always zoning out, this teacher said, I'm a seasoned professional. I've been doing this for decades. And I've tried all my tricks on her and nothing's working to get her to pay attention. And so I asked Siobhan, you know, what's going on? And she's like, well, whenever I'm bored or whatever, I can just, like, watch a movie in my head. And so it's not like what I thought of as typical ADHD, which is one reason I think that went undiagnosed for longer than it should have. Amanda: Before the math teacher said that to you, was ADHD even like on your radar? Christine: No. I knew that something was up because her grades were very uneven despite that she's a bright kid. And I think the previous conference to that one, I had asked her teachers, do you think she needs a tutor? And they said to me, no, she gets this material. She doesn't need extra help. It's not that it's conceptually challenging for her. She's just not focusing. It was almost like a personality flaw. You know, she's lazy. She's not applying herself. And so there was a lot of, in retrospect, wasted time. And no, ADHD was not on my radar. And now I have so much regret about that because I just was not informed. Bob: We asked other parents who have girls with ADHD if it took them a long time to arrive at the diagnosis. Here's what Margie told us. Margie: Yes. The thing is, when she was 10, we took her to an educational psychologist because we knew she was having learning issues. We knew something was wrong. She was coming home in tears and insistent that she was trying as hard as she could and actually vocalized that she felt that some of the other children had some kind of magic that she didn't have, that the teacher would say what to do, explain a project, explain the next steps. And they all seem to get on with it. And she didn't know where to start. The teacher said she was daydreaming, spacey, you know, et cetera. I told the ed psych, after doing research of my own, I thought she had auditory processing issues and that she had ADD inactive, which was what they called ADHD without the H six years ago before they started looking at it as presenting differently than the typical hyperactive boy diagnosis. And the ed psych came out and said, no, it wasn't ADHD. Everybody kept saying she's just not trying hard enough. She was trying so hard and she would force herself to try and focus. And because she was bright, because she was trying so hard, she was succeeding just enough for them to say, no, she didn't have it. Bob: So you said that you noticed things about Siobhan, and the way she was participating in school and what she was doing at home, that kind of made you think I wonder what's going on here. How about for Siobhan? Did she seem to recognize anything? Did she know that things weren't going for her the way they might? Christine: Yes. I think for a while she has not had a great sense of self-esteem around schoolwork, around homework. And I think for a long time, she also was confused about exactly what was going on and probably frustrated by all the negative feedback coming her way, both from her teachers and from us at home, honestly. Because I, too, thought it had a lot to do with her not working hard enough, not applying herself. Amanda: We often think of ADHD as sort of a boy thing. Did that have anything to do with ADHD not necessarily being on your radar? Christine: I think so. I think that's what's in the public perception, right? That it's a boy who's kind of bouncing off the walls. Bob: When it is a girl, it usually stands out a lot when they have that hyperactivity or the impulsivity, that sort of stuff, because it's so counter to sort of what we stereotypically expect from girls. But what you describe is so much more frequently what girls experience in school when they have ADHD. Amanda: I want to pause here for a second just to note that even when a girl does have what people think of a more typically boy kind of ADHD, she may not get the support she needs. This is something we heard about from Rob. His daughter, who's college-age now, had a lot of difficulties in school that only later were attributed to ADHD. Rob: You know, particularly when she went to Catholic school, the first- and second-grade teachers that we had seemed to have this expectation that little girls are all like A, B, and C, and my daughter was doing D, E, and F. And like the second-grade teacher told me flat out, in my 25 years of teaching, I've never encountered a little girl like that. And I was like, well, gee, that's really sad. You know, that your experience has been so limited. Bob: Have you had teachers talk to you about ADHD in girls and kind of how they look at it? Christine: No, not at all. I don't feel like any of her teachers really have expertise in this area. It's more me and my husband. Christine: Telling them what we have figured out along the way.Amanda: Christine told us that figuring this all out has been a slow and sometimes frustrating process. Partly that's just the reality of being a working parent raising young kids. Siobhan has two younger siblings. Christine: One time, I was very proud of myself because I had carved out this time to spend with her on homework. It's very hard at home because we have so much going on. So I had kind of left work early or something. The babysitter was going to be with our other kids and we were gonna sit down in a coffee shop so I could focus on homework with her and there weren't gonna be all these million interruptions. And she couldn't focus. And I was so frustrated that even despite having, you know, done all these things to set the stage, her mind kept wandering. And I was later telling the learning specialist at her school about that. And the learning specialist said to me, well, you may not realize it, but in a coffee shop setting, there's all kinds of other stimulus coming at her — people talking, you know, cappuccino machine, all these other things going on. And they're taking her attention away. And that was kind of an aha moment for me. Oh, right. Even those little things. Bob: An even bigger aha moment came when Christine took Siobhan to be evaluated by a neurologist. First, he went over the school's reports and assessments on her.Christine: And then he did one of those computerized tests where she sits in front of a computer and it's an attention test. And she had to press the spacebar when one of two stars came up. And that was the only thing that was happening on the screen: two stars. And I was sitting behind her and she totally bombed it, you know. That was another really telling moment for me where it was like, wow, there's no effort that goes into this beyond attention. There's nothing to figure out. There's, you know, nothing challenging to me about this. And yet she really could not sustain her attention. Bob: So from that evaluation, Siobhan got an ADHD diagnosis and now she gets some extra support at school. Amanda: But having a name and a language for what makes some things hard for her hasn't meant that Siobhan's insecurities just went away. Christine: Yes. And now that she's a couple years older, when I was talking about before, where she doesn't have a great sense of self-esteem around schoolwork, I think that's only gotten more pronounced. And now she can articulate things a little bit better and so she'll actually say to me, well, there's not really anything about school that I'm really good at. You know, and then she'll list the things that she's not good at. And she'll describe to me instances where she's experiencing symptoms. Like she was in band the other day, and the other clarinet players were nudging her because she had spaced out when it was her turn to come in, or she took a test and she realized that she couldn't concentrate because other students were whispering and she was sitting near the door to the hallway, which was open, and there was noise going back and forth. Amanda: Bob, while we were working on this episode, we talked a lot with our colleague Laura about what it's like to be a girl with ADHD. Bob: That's right. Laura didn't figure out that she had ADHD until she was 30. And that delay in the diagnosis led to a lot of pain and anxiety that perhaps could have been avoided. Laura: Growing up, I didn't know that I had ADHD. It was something that I had heard of. But it wasn't something that we talked about a lot, especially not in the Midwest. I don't know. The attitude was just, you know, work harder. Play sports. Study more, that kind of thing. And I definitely latched on to that. Growing up, I really busted my butt to get perfect grades and to be a student athlete and a leader at school. But all the while, I was really suffering because it was just so hard to focus. Laura: And it's funny, I look back now at my journals from when I was in middle school and high school, and I would see that I would scribble the word "focus" all over them. And yet it still didn't really click for me that something like that was going on. And I just developed these really perfectionistic ways of doing things. You know, I would like give myself fake deadlines so that I would work extra hard and give myself extra time to do things to the best of my ability. And it worked like on paper. I was very successful, if you like, looked at my grades, if you looked at how it did in sports and how it was with friends. But deep down, I was really sad and stressed out and anxious all the time. Laura: And it wasn't until I got diagnosed when I was 30 that I finally realized what was happening and it really clicked for me. I was like, wow, this is what was happening the entire time. Bob: What do you want teachers to know about your daughter? Or what do you want them to do for your daughter in their classes? Christine: So my daughter has a tutor who comes from a company that focuses on executive functioning. And I wish that those skills were taught in school. Amanda: Tell us what those skills are that she's working on with that tutor.Christine: Focus, organization, being able to sustain a task, being able to switch from one task to another, being able to organize materials like a backpack, things like that.Amanda: We are keeping you as the person who now describes executive functioning skills. That's perfect.Bob: Exactly. Amanda: Like that was spot on. How has knowing that Siobhan has ADHD affected how you interact with her and parent her? Christine: I do try to dig extra deep to find that patience. I definitely do not always find it, but I try. It affects how I analyze the situation afterwards and see the different factors that were at play. Amanda: Do you ever talk to her about those different factors, or I guess what I'm asking is do you ever go back and have those conversations after you have been impatient.Christine: Yes, absolutely. Amanda: What do they sound like in your house? Christine: Look, I'm really sorry that I was so angry with you for X, Y, and Z. You shouldn't have done X, Y, and Z, but I shouldn't have reacted in that way. I say that a lot.Amanda: I say that a lot, too. Yeah. Christine: Feel like it's the next best thing if you can't muster the 100 percent patience that you want to in this situation, then five minutes later, when you've cooled off a little bit, you can. Amanda: That's a great advice. That's really good advice. Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," a podcast from Understood. If you want to learn more about ADHD, go back and listen to some of our other episodes, like the one that answers the question "Is ADHD real?" Or our interview with Tumaini Coker, a researcher who looks into ADHD in communities of color. Bob: We'd like to hear what you think of our show. "In It" is for you. And we want to make sure that you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/podcast to share your thoughts and also to find resources. That's the letter "U," as in Understood, dot O R G slash podcast.Amanda: You can subscribe to "In It" on Apple Podcast. Follow us on Spotify. Or keep up with us however you listen to podcasts. And while you're there, please take a moment to rate and review us. Amanda: It's a great way to let other people know about "In It." And if you like what you heard today, please also tell somebody about it. Anyone you think should hear it. Maybe even your kids. Bob: Between episodes, you can find understood on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, and YouTube. Or visit our website. U, that's the letter "U," dot O R G. Our show is produced by Julie Subrin and Sara Ivry. Mike Errico wrote our theme music and Laura Kusyner is our executive director of editorial content. Amanda: Thanks for listening everyone, and a big thank you to everyone who called in and shared your story. Bob: "In It" is a production of Understood.

How to teach new classroom routines during COVID-19

Teaching classroom routines is always important at the start of the school year. If you’re returning to in-person instruction this year, you may be teaching classroom routines in a different way than you did before the coronavirus pandemic. If you’re teaching online, almost all routines may be new for your students.No matter the context, some routines may stir up anxiety or other emotions that can make it hard to teach and follow the routines. Supporting your students socially and emotionally during distance learning can make routines less stressful. And adding an element of fun, like using rhymes or mnemonics, can make them easier to remember.Even under the best of circumstances, following a routine requires strong executive functioning. Many students who learn and think differently may find these skills challenging, including organization and planning, remembering multi-step directions, and staying on task without getting distracted.So, how can you make sure you’re teaching these important routines so all students can learn and use them? The steps below can serve as a guide.1. Communicate with families about new classroom routines.Communicate with families ahead of time to tell them what routines you’ll teach students. Not only will this keep the lines of communication open, but it will also give families the chance to practice those routines ahead of time. Being able to preview these new expectations is especially helpful for students who struggle with changes in routine. If possible, consider sending detailed instructions or videos to families so they can see what those routines will look like. Example: “Dear families, here is a list of the safety routines our class will be following and why.”2. Explain the reason for the routine.It’s important to let students know the “why” behind the routine. Is it for safety purposes? Is it a way to keep everybody organized? When students know why they’re doing a routine, it can help them feel like they have some control over keeping themselves and their classmates safe and supported. Example: “Class, here’s why we all need to wear masks in the classroom. Masks help stop germs from spreading when people talk, cough, or sneeze. When we all wear our masks, we protect each other from getting sick.” 3. Model the routine step-by-step.Explain or demonstrate the routine in the way students are expected to follow it. Show what you expect them to do. Use clear, concise language to think-aloud what you’re showing them. Students who learn and think differently often don’t know how to begin a task or what to do when they get stuck. Breaking down the routine into small chunks can help. You can even use fun names for each step. Example: If the new routine is lining up after lunch, with masks on, 6 feet apart, you might break that down into steps that look like this: Chunk 1 (“Ready”):Find your mask.Put on the mask correctly.Chunk 2 (“Set”): Wait for your name to be called. Look around you to make sure you have a clear path.Chunk 3 (“Go”):Go to the lineup area.Wait on the next available spot marked on the floor. 4. Pause for reactions or discussion.Students may have questions about a new routine. They may want to understand what happens if they forget to follow the routine. Or they may want to know if they can do things a different way. And some students, especially those who experience anxiety or who have a history of trauma, may have strong emotional reactions. Respond with empathy and acknowledge that everyone’s feelings are valid. Consider how the routine can be flexible to address students’ concerns. Example: “Your feelings aren’t right or wrong here. Let’s talk about how we can work together as a community to respond to everyone’s concerns.“5. Provide multiple ways to learn and remember routines.Give students more than one way to remember the routine after you teach it. Post a video of the routine on the digital learning platform you’re using. Or hang up step-by-step directions with pictures or other visuals. You can give the directions to families to make sure the routine is used at home, too.Example: If you teach a routine for handwashing, you can write out step-by-step directions (or print out the picture chart below) to post near the sink. An acronym or a short song (for younger kids) might also help jog students’ memories. 6. Give opportunities to practice.Allow students to practice the new routine in low-stakes situations. You can practice as a class or individually. These practice sessions give you a chance to make sure all students understand every step. You can provide corrections in the moment before students have to complete the routine independently. Example: If you’re teaching students how to show they want to say something during a live video lesson, model the behavior and then practice it during a morning meeting.7. Allow for a learning curve.Let your students know that this routine is new for everybody, so it’s important to give each other a little leeway. Talk through what students can say to hold their classmates accountable for following safety routines without shaming them. It’s OK for you to be nervous about these new routines too. But try to be conscious of your own reactions if a student makes a mistake. Your class will be following your lead. Try to remain calm and model the correction. Overreacting can heighten emotions and make a small correction escalate to a bigger behavior challenge. Example: As a class, you can come up with a few reminder sentences that are easy to remember and that won’t hurt someone else’s feelings. Here are a couple rhymes you can use: “Let’s meet at 6 feet” and “If we want to share this space, let’s keep our masks on our face.”The key to teaching new routines is using the same evidence-based practices you would use in teaching other skills. Learn more by:Reading about explicit instruction Identifying and proactively reducing barriers to learning Using positive behavior strategies to support students in meeting the expectationsBuilding positive relationships with families

Dyslexia: More than mixing up letters

When kids have trouble learning to read, families may wonder about dyslexia. But what exactly is dyslexia? And what are the signs to look out for? When kids have trouble learning to read, families may wonder about dyslexia. But what exactly is dyslexia? And what are the signs to look out for? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk about dyslexia with Dr. Gabrielle Rappolt-Schlichtmann. Gabbie is an education scientist who works to make education more inclusive to kids and adults who learn and think differently. She’s also dyslexic, and the parent of a third grader with dyslexia. Tune in to learn some of the early signs of dyslexia, and why it’s never too late to get a diagnosis. Find out how to work with your child’s school to get support, and what reading strategies work best. Plus, hear why Gabbie would never want to be “cured” of dyslexia, even if she could be. Related resources What is dyslexia?7 common myths about dyslexia How to teach kids with dyslexia to read The legit fear behind “Please don’t call on me to read”Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs…Rachel: …the ups and downs…Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today, we're taking a deep dive into dyslexia, what it is, what it isn't, and how to support kids who have it.Gretchen: And we have the perfect guest here to help us with that. Dr. Gabrielle Rappolt-Schlichtmann is an education scientist and the executive director and chief scientist at EdTogether, an organization that works to make education more inclusive to students who learn and think differently.Rachel: Gabbie is also someone who herself has dyslexia, and she's a mom to a kid with dyslexia. She talks about all that with so much insight and clarity, we're so happy she joined us for this conversation. So, Gabbie, welcome to "In It."Gabbie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you both today.Rachel: Well, to start off, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and in particular your work as it relates to kids who learn and think differently.Gabbie: Sure. So, I'm an applied developmental psychologist, and I've been working with schools and teachers, education professionals, museums — basically, wherever learning happens — to help them to be inclusive to kids who, and adults, who learn and think differently in designing learning environments.And I want to start off by saying, even though I work with and think about and design environments for all kids who learn and think differently, dyslexia has a very close place in my heart because I'm dyslexic and I am also the parent of a third grader who is dyslexic and has ADHD. And so, I do think about that. I think a lot more in my personal life and my personal experience in addition to working with schools and in educational environments.Gretchen: So, as you know, we invited you here today to talk about dyslexia. So, let's start with the basics. Gabbie. I think probably the most common myth we hear when it comes to dyslexia is that it's about reading and writing letters backwards. Is that what dyslexia is?Gabbie: No, definitely not. So, when we think about dyslexia, it really doesn't have anything to do with flipping letters around or anything like that. It's a brain-based learning difference that affects reading, writing, and spelling. So, people who have dyslexia have difficulty basically working with language is how you can think about it. So, they may have difficulty isolating the sounds within words or matching letters to the sounds. Like, for example, you might have difficulty mapping the sound "to" to the letter T or the sound "tho" to the letter Th. And when you have difficulty with that, it can really affect your ability to deconstruct words as you're trying to read. And that affects reading, and it also affects your ability to spell and produce language as you're trying to write.It tends to run in families, like in my family. So, my son's dyslexic, I'm also dyslexic, and my father as well. And it really has nothing to do with intelligence. It's really important to understand that. It's just really about how your brain handles language as it relates to text, but it doesn't have any meaning to how intelligent you are.Rachel: So, were you kind of on the lookout for it, knowing that it runs in families and knowing that you yourself have it, you know, so with your kids, was that something that you kind of had an eye out for?Gabbie: Definitely. And my son is actually my second child, but we were on the lookout for it, and they popped up for us when he was in preschool. It felt like he was randomly — when we would talk about the alphabet or letters, or I would read to him — it almost felt like he was sort of guessing or randomly saying what letter went with a sound. So, I kind of had a clue that he was going to have some difficulty. And then, in fact, by the time he got to kindergarten, he was really struggling to get anything out of the reading instruction that was happening in his classroom.Rachel: You know, one common belief is the idea that you can't diagnose a child with dyslexia until they're in elementary school. Is that true?Gabbie: No, absolutely not. In fact, oftentimes we refer to that as the sort of waiting to fail approach. So, absolutely, by the time kids get into elementary school, when they're in the thick of reading instruction, you're going to see difficulty if a child is dyslexic. But way before that, when they have first exposures to anything about mapping the symbols of language, to the sounds of language, you know, doing things in a sequence, really that idea of thinking about working with language, if they're having difficulty with that, it's a clue that they might have difficulty. In fact, you can screen kids as early as preschool for difficulty with that.And with my son, because he was having difficulty, I can remember — he's in third grade now — but we went in to see his teachers for a conference and, you know, they were like "Kids develop at different rates and let's just give him time." And I thought, you know, there's no harm in having direct, explicit reading instruction, right? So, let's just do it. Why wait for him to fail, you know? And I did actually have to I don't know if this is the right word, but escalate it to the head of the preschool, because I was getting a lot of pushback from the teachers. And when I talked to her, I just said, "You know, I'm dyslexic, my dad's dyslexic. He's not responding to reading instruction. I don't think any kid gets sad or upset from getting competence with a skill. So, let's get him some, you know, instruction." And they did. They were very responsive up to that.Gretchen: I like that idea. I like to say, "You know what? No matter what, this is confidence-building, right? To get these extra skills in place." So, you know, you mentioned a few of the things that families or teachers could be looking for when kids are really young, you know, thinking about a parent at home, what would be a very like easy sign to maybe bring to the teachers and say, hey, could there be something here?Gabbie: Sure. So, I think a lot of times as parents, we do nursery rhymes with kids or maybe singing songs with kids where there's rhyming. And if you're noticing that your child's having a lot of difficulty with rhyming or sort of not picking that up or seems like they're guessing you might probe like in a fun game, you know "What rhymes with cat? I'm thinking sad," you know, sort of going back and forth. And, you know, a lot of kids have difficulty with these things. But if it's popping up along with when you're sort of introducing a letter to a child or something like that, and maybe they have difficulty following directions in a sequence or something like that, that would be a sort of constellation of things to raise to a teacher.Rachel: So, is there an optimal age for a child to be evaluated for dyslexia or, you know, I mean, we talked a little bit about it can be as young as preschool, but is there kind of like an ideal age or is it really about when you see the signs?Gabbie: Yeah, I think the answer to that is it's never too late. Absolutely not. And I'm a good example of that. I didn't have a diagnosis until I was in ninth grade.Rachel: Oh, wow.Gabbie: And I'm a very good example of, you know, a girl who's not identified because I was doing well enough. So, the teachers were sort of saying, "Well, it's fine. This is just who Gabby is. And then I had an English teacher actually in the ninth grade, who was like, "Wow, I would really.." based on our classroom discussions and, you know, how smart this teacher thought that I was, he expected more from my writing, And so, he asked to see a rough draft in my handwriting, and the spelling was so bad, he was like, "I can't read this. Let's figure out what's going on."And then I was finally evaluated and I got my diagnosis. And it made a huge difference to me in terms of the direct instruction — really remedial instruction that I had around reading specifically — but also the accommodations that I received in school, which allowed me really to excel in areas of interest like science and math. And in fact, I went on to college and majored in neuroscience and my job now it's like 80% reading and writing.Rachel: Right.Gretchen: So, then your ninth-grade teacher noticed these things. It took up until them. I'm wondering if you had a sign, if the teachers didn't have one, did you have one inside and wonder what was up?Gabbie: Oh, yeah. And my mom is actually a special education teacher.Rachel: Got it.Gabbie: And she knew, she knew what was going on and she was teaching me at home, basically. So she was, you know, reading with me. I can remember spelling tests in elementary and early middle school where we would start on Mondays and just drill through them. And I would still barely pass after hours and hours. I can remember having homework where I, you know, had to fill out a workbook, and I can remember becoming so frustrated I actually threw the book across the room in a sort of fit of anger. And I was very calm, self-regulated child. So, I think for me I just thought, "This is what learning is" until I had that teacher.And it was like this real relief for me being evaluated and having the label, because I think sometimes people worry that the label is bad or can affect you in a negative way. But for me, it was a complete relief because it was like, "Well, you know, you just learn and think differently and your teachers aren't teaching the way that you need to learn. And there are some things that we can do now that we know to make this a way easier lift." And it was absolutely true.Rachel: Wow. That is really amazing that, you know, you were able to get to that point without anybody really seeing it. But once you got there, what supports did you get, you know, and how did they help?Gabbie: Yeah, I want to say first to that, as a professional in the field, you know, when I work with middle school teachers and high school teachers and sort of helping them think about kids with dyslexia, kids with other learning and thinking differences, I'm often incredibly surprised at how little they know about their kids reading levels and that they tend to make assumptions about everybody being able to read when they're sitting in like, say, a history classroom or a math classroom, and making assignments without looking into that, especially if a child doesn't have an IEP yet.So, I think it is important to know that by the time you get past fourth grade, most teachers aren't thinking about teaching reading, they're thinking about their content area instruction. And so, they may not be aware of where your child's specific reading skills are or writing skills. So, in terms of accommodations, I would say for me it was mostly about being able to listen to my texts across the curriculum.So back then, this is a long time ago now, I used to have books on tapes, so my textbooks on tape, but now, of course, we have digital support, so you can get basically any text, any reading that you need to, including things that are on paper like worksheets. You can use accessibility, accommodations, and features even on your phone just to have things read aloud to you. And so, that's a pretty basic accommodation that was really important to me. In fact, now I still often because I'm so much more efficient at listening comprehension in my professional life, I listen to the texts that I read. Not always, but most of the time.Another accommodation that I've used through college was doing speech to text technology, so where you can speak what you want to say in text and then editing through typing. I also had a lot of executive functioning support. So, you can think about executive functioning as being that sort of control center of your brain, that sort of set of skills that helps you to self-regulate and organize and figure out how much time it will take you to do something and be able to plan to get your work done. That was a huge thing for me. So, I had really explicit instruction and supports around, you know, having a daily planner and really learning how to chart and better guesstimate how long things would take me.Rachel: Right. You know, reading instruction is such a hot topic. It was then, it is now. So, families might be hearing things like structured literacy, balance literacy or phonics versus whole language. When it comes to kids with dyslexia and really all kids who are learning to read. What does science tell us about how kids learn to read best?Gabbie: Yeah. So, they really need explicit instruction about the code of reading. English is very, actually exists across languages, but let's just talk about English here. English is a very complicated language. It involves you learning one sound and then under a different set of rules. It makes a different set of sounds, you know. So, for kids who are dyslexic and many other kids as well, really explicitly teaching that sort of phonics-based, separating out, intentionally teaching systematically, the code of language is really important. And for kids with dyslexia, really doing it in a multisensory way so that you're taking different ways to get the information into your mind.One approach that a lot of people talk about, that's evidence-based in terms of supporting kids with dyslexia to learn to read is kids actually trace letters with their finger in sand as they're doing the sound-related work and it's just a way to work on getting that idea into the brain through different channels. And then repeated practice. You know, kids with dyslexia are going to need repeated practice with a skill over and over and over again in many different ways, more times than you would ever expect that you would need that repeated practice.Rachel: That brings me to my next question, because teachers always tell us from preschool all the way up. I mean, I've had sixth, seventh, eighth grade teachers even say it, that the best thing we can do for our kids is read out loud to them. So, does a diagnosis of dyslexia reflect some sort of failure on that front?Gabbie: Definitely not.Rachel: Good.Gabbie: And it really goes back to that brain-based difference thing. You know, our brains are built for language, not for reading. And so, some kids, when they come to reading, have a brain that picks it up more easily. And other kids, you know, kids with dyslexia being one example, really need that explicit instruction to get their brain around what's happening on the reading side. So, it's nothing that you did. It's just the way I am. Exposure to text is always good because it's good for your relationship with your child. It's good for them to understand the utility of books and to be transported by stories or to understand like how they can get information from books. But whether you did that or not won't affect their ability to pick up reading, when you start getting into decoding and understanding the really, you know, the relationship between symbols and sounds.Rachel: So, as you shared, you know, there's a genetic component to dyslexia. And so, if there's a parent or caregiver out there who is dyslexic and maybe they didn't get the supports to feel confident in their reading now, or they still find reading really frustrating, how can they read to or read with their child?Gabbie: OK. So, this is a wonderful question, and you can absolutely get as much out of listening to books as you can from reading books to your child to listening to books together and then talking about the story when you're in bed together. I remember when my daughter, she was, I think, in fifth or sixth grade, I think fifth grade, and she really wanted me to read "Little Women" to her and I can read it, but oh my goodness, is my fluency slow with that. You know, the sort of older English and it was very tough. And I remember sitting in bed with her and she was like, "I can read it, Mom," you know? And I'm probably going to cry right now while I'm talking about it. It's a hard moment, you know, like, because she was, you know, beyond me in that skill. Now, I can read a very complicated neuroscience text about dyslexia published in "Science" magazine. But I read it by listening, and reading a text like that is always going to be really hard for me. So, having her do that, I was like at the same time really proud and then also a little bit ashamed. But she just made it so wonderful for me in terms of being like, you know, "I want to read it" and us doing that together. So, that's also a good opportunity, I think reading together doesn't necessarily mean you reading to your child.Rachel: And I love that you're sharing that, you know, audiobooks, listening to books. It's I feel like there's that myth out there that that's a cheat. And it's totally not.Gabbie: Definitely not. And I think one big piece of advice I could give parents, you know, when they're sitting in IEP meetings and or thinking about their kids talking to their teachers in parent-child conferences, you know, by the time kids get to fourth grade, which is really that transition from learning to read to reading to learn, now your child might still be learning to read, and that's fine, but by the time you get to fourth grade, you really don't want all of their access to the content in the subject areas to be through reading in a traditional sense if they're reading below grade level.So, it's like separating "I'm still learning how to decode the text at a certain level, and I'm learning to comprehend texts at maybe a much higher level. And so, I can do that through listening comprehension." So, that's one of the best things that can happen when you get into middle school and high school. If you have a child who's reading below grade levels and working is on that is to say, "Let's make sure that reading comprehension in subject areas is that they have access to listening to text."Rachel: So, I've seen a statistic that one in five students has a language-based disability. But you certainly don't get the sense that we have that many students getting extra reading and writing support in the classroom. So, why is that? And what are the barriers to getting a diagnosis, if that's related to the reason why there's this kind of disparity?Gabbie: I think there are lots of reasons why kids aren't identified. So, you know, resources is one thing in the schools. So, there's a kind of threshold to be screened and there are limits, a limited set of resources, amount of time in terms of the number of special educators that they have in the school. So, that sometimes plays out, you know, in terms of who gets identified, how many kids are captured in that net. You know, I think it's knowledge on the teacher's part.General education teachers, so the ones who teach the main classroom, they might not know anything about dyslexia at all, might not have had any experience in their training, might have only had one class where they learned about all disabilities from teaching kids who are deaf to teaching kids or has autistic to teaching kids who are dyslexic. And that often sets up a kind of us and them in schools where it's like kids who have difficulty reading, that's the responsibility of the special education teachers and then everybody else's I'm responsible for, just because they don't know. They just don't know. There's a knowledge gap there.And I think also sometimes parents don't necessarily know that they can have their kids evaluated or can advocate to have their kids evaluated in the school. And that testing can be free, is free in the school. You can always have a private evaluation which can be expensive and you have to wait a long time for. But you can ask to have your child evaluated and you are protected. Your child is protected under IDEA to be evaluated and to have services when they're warranted. So, there are lots of issues as to why those kids don't get services.Rachel: And so, then if, let's say a kid gets missed and then they don't get a diagnosis and they don't get the support they need, how does this impact a person's future life? How does it impact, you know, upper grades of school to beyond if they don't get these supports?Gabbie: Yeah. So, I mean, it can be really devastating. And I don't want to put it on the child because I really believe, you know, in my work we make choices, how we create schools, and the ways that we teach.Rachel: Yep.Gabbie: And there's absolutely no reason why all kids couldn't be getting direct, explicit, systematic multisensory reading instruction, because then we would capture all the kids in the general classroom. But unfortunately, that's not the way most schools are set up. And so, what ends up happening is kids fail and then they get separate, explicit reading instruction as an add-on. So, I think when you don't have that and you're not reading on grade level, it really affects your ability to participate in any aspect of the curriculum. So, being able to learn about history, learn about science, and about math, even if you might be gifted in those areas because so much of the way that we construct school is through reading. Yeah, like if you think about math, you get a math textbook, right?Rachel: Yep. You read a word problem.Gabbie: You get a word problem, you're doing a proof. You have to write the proof, right in geometry. So, we really use reading and writing as a medium for instruction and for learning. It doesn't have to be that way, but that is how we do it. So, it can be really devastating for kids. And on an emotional level, I'm doing a bunch of work around stigmatization and how it affects kids with learning differences. Their perception of themselves and literacy is so important to our culture that when a person presents as not literate, they feel almost as if they're less than human, right? Because it's like this skill that we all assume that everyone has within our culture. And it's like, "Well, why can't you do that?" You know?And so, it's like this experience of dehumanization that happens if you can't read. And so, yeah, if you feel like it's being missed, if you have a concern about your child, if you suspect, you know, get in there and ask questions and you might get pushback. But I think, you know, no child was ever harmed by having an evaluation and getting extra support, really.Rachel: To be super clear about this, can a child or anyone who's been diagnosed be cured of dyslexia?Gabbie: No.Rachel: I'm using the word cured or doing air quotes, but also, you know, can we make it go away?Gabbie: Yeah, you cannot make it go away. It is literally a brain-based difference in how your brain processes and works with language. There's some evidence that as you get intervention, your brain does change. You know, the brain is classic. It does change in response to intervention. But when we look at that, it's mostly about when dyslexic people learn to read marshaling other areas of the brain to help them to do that. So, you can change in response to intervention. But no, it's not going to be cured.And OK, I might I'm going to say something a little controversial now as an adult with dyslexia, I'm not saying that it was easy. It was really tough to be in school and to go through schools that weren't really like fit for me as a person and that I had to figure out how to navigate, you know, with support. It was really hard. And I have a lot of privilege as a white person and a person who is resourced in terms of my parents being able to get me extra support. So, I don't want to like reduce that.But I do want to say, looking at my life now and who I am, I wouldn't want to be cured of dyslexia because it makes me the person that I am. And what's interesting is if you look at the research literature, even the brain science literature around dyslexia, that there are actually lots of other differences in the brain. Everyone's focused on reading because that's the biggest challenge, because the schools aren't set up to support kids who are dyslexic. But there's actually this other really interesting research literature that's just getting going, that's looking at, "Well, do kids with dyslexia have advantages in visuospatial processing?" So, for example, people who are dyslexic when they get through school are actually overrepresented among astrophysicists.Rachel: Wow.Gabbie: And you may be like, why is that the case? Well, it turns out that people who are dyslexic tend to be better at picking up patterns from a visual field. So, like pattern recognition, like being able to look at a star chart and recognize a black hole and things like that.Rachel: Something I could never do.Gabbie: Yeah. So, I think there's lots of things about being dyslexic that are advantages that maybe make up the kind of person that you are. That also comes with negatives, you know, in terms of the reading in the way school set up. But doesn't everybody have a mix of those things?Rachel: Totally.Gabbie: So, even if it could be cured, I wouldn't want it to be because it makes me who I am.Rachel: And that's such a great thing to be able to communicate to kids who maybe find out like, "Oh, you know, I have this diagnosis now. Now what?" You know, for parents and teachers to know that, you know, these are some things that they can maybe share with those kids. You know, as a super positive.Gabbie: Absolutely.Rachel: Gabbie, thank you so much for sharing everything you know and your personal stories. It's been just such a pleasure.Rachel: I have learned so much today. And also, I really appreciate you busting these myths because some of them I really didn't understand were myths.Gabbie: Thank you both so much. It was really fun to talk with you today.Rachel: Before we go, we have a favor to ask. On this show, we talk a lot about finding joy and celebrating successes when it comes to raising kids who learn and think differently. But what about the fails.Rachel: Oh the fails!Rachel: Yes, the fails. Let's be real! We all make mistakes. So, let's bond over those kinds of moments, too.Rachel: I have no idea what you're talking about, but. OK, I do. So, I think we're talking about those days when we are so exhausted, so fed up, we find ourselves saying or doing the total opposite of what we think a good parent or caregiver would actually say or do.Rachel: Totally. Like, maybe you just lose it after your kid spills juice everywhere again.Rachel: Or maybe you set a limit, even though you know there is no way you're going to stick to it. I mean, not that I've ever done that, but it's probably something to watch out for.Rachel: Yes, you are not alone. So, let's laugh and maybe cry about these all too human fails together. 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We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Rachel: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin, and Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Rachel: And thanks for always being in it with us.