57 results for: "gifted"
The challenges of twice-exceptional kids
“Your child is gifted and needs special education?” Many parents are all too familiar with this kind of comment. You may hear it from friends. From family. Even from some teachers and doctors.Yet there are lots of people who have exceptional ability in some academic areas and significant learning difficulties in other areas. Educators use a special name to describe students who qualify for gifted programs as well as special education services. These children are referred to as twice-exceptional, or 2e, learners.“Some organizations estimate that there are hundreds of thousands of twice-exceptional learners in U.S. schools.” Consider Tessa: She’s a bright, insightful, and enthusiastic fourth grader who is reading at a 12th-grade level. At the same time, she can’t pass her spelling tests, and writing is a huge struggle.Consider Jamie: At 16, he knows everything about the Civil War, writes beautifully, and can talk endlessly about politics. Yet he needs a calculator to help him with even the most basic math. And he couldn’t tie his shoes until he was in seventh grade.Consider Steven Spielberg: He’s one of the most successful filmmakers of all time, but reading has been a lifelong struggle for him because he has dyslexia.Twice-exceptional and easily overlookedSome organizations estimate that there are hundreds of thousands of twice-exceptional learners in U.S. schools. But there are no hard numbers because so many of these students are never formally identified as being gifted, having a disability, or both.Twice-exceptional children tend to fall into one of three categories. These categories help explain why students often go through school without the services and stimulation they need:Students whose giftedness masks their learning and thinking differences. These kids score high on tests for giftedness but may not do well in gifted programs. These students use their exceptional abilities to try to compensate for their weaknesses. But as they get older, they may be labeled as “underachievers” or “lazy” as they fall behind their gifted peers.Students whose learning and thinking differences mask their giftedness. Learning and thinking differences can affect performance on IQ tests and other assessments for giftedness. For example, since many of these tests require language skills, kids with language-based challenges may not perform well. These kids may be placed in special education classes, where they become bored and possibly act out because they aren’t being challenged enough. Some of these children are identified, wrongly, as having emotional problems.Students whose learning and thinking differences and giftedness mask each other. These kids may appear to have average ability because their strengths and weaknesses “cancel each other out.” Consequently, these students may not qualify for gifted programs or for special education programs.Identifying twice-exceptional studentsFederal law protects students with disabilities. School districts are required to look for children with disabilities and provide special education to those who qualify for it. Gifted education is a different animal.There is no federal requirement for gifted education. Decisions about gifted programming are made at the state and local level. Few states specify what these services should be and which talents should be nurtured. This is often left up to individual school districts. And funding for gifted services can vary greatly from district to district.Identifying twice-exceptional students tends to be a low priority. Often it takes a proactive parent to push for testing for both giftedness and learning and thinking differences. But sometimes teachers are the first to raise the possibility.Here are some early tip-offs that your child could be a twice-exceptional learner:Extraordinary talent in a particular area, such as math, drawing, verbal communication, or music A significant gap between your child’s performance in school and performance on aptitude testsSigns of a processing disorder, such as having trouble following spoken directions or stories that are read aloudThere isn’t a simple, one-test way of identifying twice-exceptional children. Ask your child’s school how it evaluates kids for giftedness and learning and thinking differences. The process usually includes assessing kids’ strengths and weaknesses as well as observing them in class and other settings.It may be helpful for you and the teachers to keep records of what your child excels in and struggles with. Be on the lookout for “disconnects” between how hard your child is studying and what kinds of grades your child gets.Social and emotional challengesGiftedness can add to the social and emotional challenges that often come along with learning and thinking differences. Here are some challenges that twice-exceptional learners may face:Frustration: This is especially common among kids whose talents and learning differences have gone unnoticed or only partially addressed. These students may have high aspirations and resent the often-low expectations that others have for them. They may crave independence and struggle to accept that they need support for their learning and thinking differences.Like many gifted students, twice-exceptional learners may be striving for perfection. Nearly all the students who participated in one study of giftedness and learning disabilities reported that they “could not make their brain, body, or both do what they wanted to do.” No wonder these kids are frustrated!Low self-esteem: Without the right supports, children with learning and thinking differences may lose confidence in their abilities or stop trying because they start to believe that failure is inevitable. This kind of negative thinking can add to the risk of depression.Social isolation: Twice-exceptional kids often feel like they don’t fit into one world or another. They may not have the social skills to be comfortable with the students in their gifted classes. They may also have trouble relating to students in their remedial classes. This can lead twice-exceptional learners to wonder, “Where do I belong?” These children often find it easier to relate to adults than to kids their age.How to help your childWith the right supports and encouragement, twice-exceptional learners can flourish. (Just ask Steven Spielberg!) Here’s what you can do to help your child:Talk to the school. If you suspect your child may be twice exceptional, request a meeting with the school’s special education coordinator. Discuss your concerns, and ask about types of tests.Ask to stay in the gifted program. If your child has been identified as gifted but is not doing well in that program, request an assessment for learning and thinking differences before any decisions are made about removal from the program.Make the most of your child’s IEP. If the school determines that your child is twice exceptional, use the annual goals in the Individualized Education Program (IEP) to address weaknesses and nurture gifts. Be prepared to brainstorm — and to be persistent!Find other twice-exceptional kids. Encourage your child to spend time with children who have similar interests and abilities. This can help kids celebrate their strengths and feel less isolated. You may be able to connect with twice-exceptional families through Understood’s Wunder community app.Empower your child. It’s important for kids to understand their gifts and weaknesses. Reassure your child that kids can get support in the areas where they struggle. But resist the urge to rush in and rescue your child every time something is frustrating. It’s better to help kids learn to cope with their mixed abilities.When caregivers partner with teachers, it can help kids develop their talents and achieve their full potential. Learn more about how to be an effective advocate for your child at school. With love and support from their family, kids can move ahead and make the most of their gifts.
In ItWhen gifted kids need accommodations, too
Meeting the needs of kids with learning and thinking differences can be a lot. Add giftedness into the equation, and parenting takes on a whole additional dimension.Meeting needs kids learning thinking differences lot. Add giftedness equation, parenting takes whole additional dimension.That’s Lexi Walters Wright hears co-host Amanda Morin episode raising twice-exceptional (or “2E”) kids. Amanda swaps shared experiences guests Penny Williams, parenting trainer coach, Debbie Reber, author creator TiLT Parenting — raising 2E sons.They talk finding right school program students gifted struggling. also rethink intelligence really means hope future looks like 2E young adults.Related resourcesGifted children’s challenges learning thinking differences12 questions ask school 2E studentsA unique IEP solution twice-exceptional sonDebbie Reber’s TiLT Parenting PodcastPenny Williams’ Parenting ADHD PodcastEpisode transcriptAmanda Morin: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin, parent kids learning differences — writer Understood.org.Lexi Walters Wright: I'm Lexi Walters Wright, community manager Understood.org.Amanda: "In It." Lexi: "In It" podcast Understood Parents. show, offer support practical advice families whose kids struggling reading, math, focus learning thinking differences. Amanda: today we're talking supporting kids learning differences gifted. Penny Williams: That's something we've heard teachers long time. know, he's told, "I don't understand can't this. You're smart."Lexi: Penny Williams writer best known book, Boy Without Instructions. Amanda: boy she's referring son, Luke, teenager.Penny: Luke 16. No, he's driving yet. ready yet. Amanda: Luke intellectually gifted. also learning thinking differences. parents figure deal gifts home, school world. Lexi: Amanda, we're going get Luke Penny's story minute. first want ask you: There's term people often use kids gifted disability. It's "twice exceptional," "2E" short. I'm guessing listeners hearing term first time thinking. "Well, what's big deal? Isn't like, kid learning disability that's tricky — hey, bonus, it's bad gifted?"Amanda: Wouldn't nice easy, right? twice exceptional 2E, think key exceptionality. We're talking exceptionalities rare ways. kid learning disability, means they're struggling type processing learning difference kind thing. kid who's, like, sort off-the-charts really smart way separates rest kids class also. concern twice exceptionality makes really tough oftentimes one "E" mask other. kid who's really strong one area — gifted — learning disability learning difference gets way makes look average. sometimes you'll see giftedness really good job masking disability.Lexi: topic know lot about, Amanda. So, parent advocate also parent. Amanda: Oh yeah, definitely. two twice-exceptional kids home. don't know math is. Exponentially? It's challenge. Lexi: give us example know 2E kids? Amanda: house? give example house. looks different everybody's house. So, example, yesterday — live Maine. snow day 9-year-old, one twice-exceptional children, said him, "Hey, it's snow day!" says me, "Great, I'll sitting reading interview CEO Mitsubishi 'Motor Trends Magazine.'" Whereas expected be, like, "Cool, I'm going put pajamas hang playing LEGOs." Lexi: son also learning thinking differences. Amanda: Yeah, also ADHD autism, he's sort wrapped that. teenager also twice exceptional, thinks amazing ways. deep conversations. yet can't seem grasp idea left hat room last place saw hat, hat literally room somewhere — didn't walk off. sounds like lot teenagers, literally it's idea still hard keep mind. Caller 1: three 2E kids one stories aware kid struggling son 3 years old. reading, pretty much, words since 2. noticed also really hard time keeping together nursery school. said "he's either gifted bored ADHD" actually turned both. true. Caller 2: third grade started getting calls son saying, "I think I've tried hard enough today, Mom. It's time come home." People always focusing deficits challenges misinterpreting actions. Reading class actually way calm nervous system pay attention. brain's way doodling. Caller 3: hardest thing get people understand 2E kid lazy unmotivated. actually story: ninth grade, finally able get advanced class, math class. teacher upset able get class went principal told son unorganized immature class. principal pulled son's file showed teacher son's math scores. that, told son highest math scores entire K 12 school. deserve class also let know teach son. Lexi: today's episode, we're going draw experience, Amanda, we're also going hear two moms whose paths taken many twists turns try make sense learning strengths challenges children have.Amanda: First we're going go back Penny, mom Luke. Lexi: Luke little, Penny husband didn't know "gifted," "learning disabled," "2E," labels. knew sweet, smart, curious kid. Amanda: started school. Penny: Kindergarten disaster. one worst years we've had. October birthday kid. still 4, could see super, super intelligent. So, know, knowing anything, went ahead started. end second day, parent-teacher conference. morning second day already called me: "You need stay pick up, talk." Like, oh, great. thought, well, he's prepared. know, didn't go preschool. stayed grandma working thought, know, really need give time. Lexi: calls notices kept coming. "He's sitting still, he's wiggling much carpet time. He's flailing scissors, endangering kids." Penny: know onus put us, hadn't prepared work fit classroom. know, one ever said "hey might something else going on." know, "This could learning disability. could developmental disability. know, might want go pediatrician." Lexi: Penny husband figured school problem. next year, switched. new school seemed like much better fit. Penny: amazing teacher first grade differentiated instruction. kind sweet understanding flexible kids' needs. sort notes coming home: Luke can't stay task, Luke behind reading, Luke doesn't control body. know, notes kinder, still issues. that's ultimately led us pediatrician, developmental pediatrician ADHD diagnosis. Lexi: team evaluation recommended Luke try medication ADHD. Penny hated idea. could see needed something Luke. Penny: really, really suffering. sad time. crying time. mean really severely affected fact couldn't meet expectations people didn't understand him. Lexi: So, Amanda. relate story?Amanda: relate story really hits home me. time child feels like they're meeting expectations really hard. can't meet people don't believe true, it's much worse. don't know you, Lexi, I've never met kid wants stand crowd negative way, happen giftedness learning differences. know Penny I, quirky, amazing kids think differently many ways, it's hard makes stand apart want fit in. Lexi: Well, Luke began taking medication ADHD, help some. Penny could see things going Luke, years later
A government reminder to schools: Don’t overlook twice-exceptional kids
Many gifted children also have learning or thinking differences. But if they’re doing well in school, their issues may not be recognized. Schools can be reluctant to evaluate kids like these for special education services.So in 2015, the Department of Education (ED) issued a reminder. The message? Students who are “twice exceptional” are entitled to evaluations, too.Melody Musgrove was director of the Office of Special Education Programs at the Department of Education. She sent the reminder to state special education directors in April.Her memo talked about “children with disabilities with high cognition.” It stated that they’re also covered by the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA). And it asked the state directors to remind schools: They must evaluate all children who may have a disability.There’s another side to this situation, too. Kids who do get IDEA services are often shut out of gifted programs. The National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD) reported on this in 2014. And the Civil Rights Data Collection shows that twice-exceptional kids are underrepresented in gifted programs.“Too often, kids with learning and thinking differences are precluded from participating in gifted programs,” says Lindsay Jones. She’s the director of public policy and advocacy at NCLD. Jones adds that schools often believe these kids can’t achieve in these classes, but that’s not true.Jones thinks that Musgrove’s memo and this data can be useful to parents of twice-exceptional kids. “These are great tools to help parents start important conversations with their schools,” she says. Such talks, ideally, can “ensure that all children get what they need to truly thrive.”Any opinions, views, information, and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions, or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.
ADHD Aha!Twice exceptional: Raising a gifted son with ADHD (Emily’s story)
From a very young age, Emily’s son would have meltdowns and get intensely angry. He was also really bright. From a very young age, Emily Hamblin’s son would have meltdowns and get intensely angry. He was also really bright. He was ahead of the curve academically and scored in the 99th percentile on standardized testing. His teachers would say he was just “smart and quirky.” That didn’t sit right with Emily, though. She knew something else was going on.Then one day, a friend suggested that Emily look into ADHD. Emily was skeptical at first. But when she learned more, it was clear that this was the missing puzzle piece. Her son was twice exceptional: He’s gifted and he has ADHD. This discovery even helped Emily recognize ADHD symptoms in herself.Emily co-hosts a podcast called Enlightening Motherhood, which aims to help moms who are overwhelmed by their kids’ big emotions. Listen in to hear how Emily reframes ADHD symptoms in a positive light.Related resourcesThe challenges of twice-exceptional kids7 myths about twice-exceptional (2e) students Twice-exceptional Black and brown kids (The Opportunity Gap podcast episode)Episode transcriptEmily: I had a friend and I heard her talking to someone about her child's behaviors. And I kind of stopped in my track because it was the first time I heard someone describe my son's behaviors. At the time, I took it as, "Oh, he's just disrespecting me." But finally, that friend said, "You know, that sounds like impulsivity. Have you ever thought that he has ADHD? Because emotional dysregulation is also a part of ADHD." And I was like, "No, no, no. There's no way he has ADHD. He can sit down and read a book without blinking for three hours. If he had ADHD, he couldn't focus that long, right?" And I of course, I fought against it. Then I looked it up and was like, "Oh, my goodness."Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. I'm here today with Emily Hamlin. Emily is a life coach and a mom to a son who's gifted and has ADHD. She's also the host of "Enlightening Motherhood," a podcast dedicated to empowering moms of kids with big emotions. Hi, Emily. I'm so happy to have you on the show today.Emily: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.Laura: Let's start by telling our listeners and me about your son.Emily: I'm going to use a pen name for him just to keep his identity a little bit confidential. I'll call him Jack. Jack has always been so bright. He was the kid when he was one year old, and we brought him up to the light switches he would study which light turned on. We'd see him turn and predict which one it was and get this look of satisfaction when he got it right. And so he's always been really, really bright. And when he was in preschool —he was 3 years old — I remember he started to have some kind of really intense behaviors. He would have meltdowns and scream and just become so intensely angry. And I felt like it wasn't very normal, like the twos were actually OK. Everyone says terrible twos, but for us, it was 3 and 4 that was when the, those kind of behaviors started popping up. But I kind of felt that it wasn't super typical.And I went to his preschool teacher and I remember saying, "He's doing great academically, but we're seeing these behaviors pop up." And she would say, "Oh, no, he's just copying the other kids, throwing fits at school," or "Oh, he's just a little bit quirky because he's so bright." And in kindergarten, he was reading 100 sight words before kindergarten, and he went to school, and they would say, "OK, well, here's the letter 'A.' It makes the sound 'Ah.'" And so, he would start to act up in kindergarten. And again, the teacher would call me in and she said, "Well, let's just skip him to first grade. I think that will solve all of his behavioral issues." And I was like, "Oh, he's already the little kid in kindergarten. I don't want to have him be this tiny kid in first grade," but that's kind of what was offered.So, we tried a lot of, you know, sticker charts and what I could at the time, never really figuring out the underlying issue. And we got him through that patch. First grade, he had a really good teacher who recognized "OK, he does not need to sit and read line by line with us in this book. Here, Jack, you can bring this book to the corner. You can read at your own pace." And it was like the perfect fit that we've ever had for him for schooling, but he still told me one time, "Mom, we had to partner read on the rug in school, and the book was just so easy that I decided to lay down out on the rug and roll around and make noises instead."Laura: Oh, wow. So, is this about the time that you discovered that Jack was gifted?Emily: Yes. They tested him in school, and he tested 99th percentile gifted. And there wasn't really a gifted program, but his teacher was accommodating him as much as she could. And it was really great because the homework was the worst when he already knew how to do it beforehand. And he would come home with, "OK, write the word 'cat.'" And he was reading Harry Potter at that point in time. It was like pulling teeth to get him to do it, even though it would only take him about five minutes or so, right? But he would throw a fit for about 40 minutes over not wanting to do the homework. And I couldn't quite figure him out. At this point, I really was suspecting that he was neurodivergent and I went to Google.Laura: Dr. Google.Emily: Yeah, Dr. Google. And I thought maybe he has autism. I don't know. And I went to his teacher, and I said, "Do you think Jack has autism?" She said, "No way. He's just smart and quirky." And that was what they always would say, "No, he just has these little, like, behavioral quirks to him and he's smart, and the two combined," and it wasn't really explaining the intense emotions, which is the hardest thing for us as parents to handle. So, it was not until third grade, where I had a friend and we were at a workout group and I heard her talking to someone about her child's behaviors. And I kind of stopped in my track because it was the first time I heard someone describe my son's behaviors, where he made a little mistake on his homework, and then suddenly he ripped it up and then he was raging for like 20 minutes over this little mistake on his homework. And I stopped in my tracks, I was like, "Can we connect?"And I don't remember exactly where it went from there, but I just remember her being this support. And I would say, "No, I just, I need him to listen to me when I say 'stay off my phone' and he walks past my phone and he gets on my phone and it's like he just ignores me and he disrespects me because he gets on it anyways," I had no idea what impulsivity was or what it meant. But looking back, that's totally what was going on. He just couldn't control that impulse. Whereas at the time I took it as, "Oh, he's just disrespecting me." And the teachers would say, "Oh, he's just been bad in class," or "He won't listen to us." Nobody understood any of that underlying things.But finally, that friend said, "You know, that sounds like impulsivity. Have you ever thought that he has ADHD? Because emotional dysregulation is also a part of ADHD." And I was like, "No, no, no. There's no way he has ADHD. He can sit down and read a book without blinking for three hours. If he had ADHD, he couldn't focus that long, right? Or he couldn't sit still that long, right?" Of course, that's what I thought. What everyone says on your show, what we thought and what we know now.Laura: That's what we do here. Yeah, that's right. So, it sounds like that was the start of your ADHD journey. Maybe your ADHD "aha" moment for your son.Emily: Yeah. And I, of course I fought against it. Then I looked it up and was like, "Oh my goodness." Like it was the whole package. It's not just "He can't pay attention and he can't sit still." It had that whole package, and I went to his third-grade teacher who was really close to students and really perceptive of them, which was great, and I said, "Do you think he might have ADHD?" It was like, "Yes, please go get him evaluated."Laura: Wow. What happened then? How did the evaluation process go?Emily: We just found an ADHD clinic and she emailed us all the forms ahead of time. So, we only had one in-person visit, but filling them out, we did the NICHQ, and looking through those questions and filling them out for him, I was like, "Oh my goodness." He was marking pretty much everyone. I don't remember the exact scale, but like very often, I think is what the highest one pretty much everyone was very often. And as I was filling it out for him, I had my own "aha" moment where I went, "Oh my goodness, I'm checking all these boxes, too." And I never even considered that I could have ADHD. But suddenly it explained my own emotional dysregulation and my own tendency to just get lost in time and not realize that time had passed or procrastination, things like that. It was like a double "aha" moment.Laura: Your son is twice exceptional. Could you define that for our listeners? This is the first time we've had the opportunity to talk about twice exceptional or 2e on the show.Emily: So, he's twice exceptional in it that on the one hand, he is academically gifted, but he also has this additional neurodiverse side to him, which for him is ADHD. So, he has both going on at the same time. Getting that diagnosis was kind of difficult because it was almost like the giftedness was masking the ADHD. He was compensating with his ability to do so well in academics, but we didn't notice really what was going on.Laura: It's so tricky already to spot signs of ADHD. There's so many misconceptions about ADHD and how it presents. That's just got to add this extra layer of misconceptions or confusion.Emily: Yeah, and there's kind of a social conception, too, that children that are academically gifted should be quirky. And so, they would just describe all of those quirks as a result of his giftedness that it couldn't be something else.Laura: Because your son is academically gifted. I imagine there are all these expectations around what he's supposed to be able to do, and he's supposed to be extra mature and extra good at everything. Do you find that that's true?Emily: Yeah, and I had that for a long time, too. I would say "You're too smart to be melting down over brushing your teeth. Can't you see that brushing your teeth will take you three minutes and this fit is taking you 15 minutes? Why don't you just brush your teeth? Why can't you be logical? You're smart enough."Laura: Did you ever feel judged as a parent during this journey?Emily: I mean, definitely. I feel like most parents feel judged for their children's behaviors, and I just felt like it took so much more effort and people didn't realize that I was trying. I would get like phone calls home, "Oh, Jack did this again in class," and I would be like, "OK, I'm working on him and I'm trying." And he was doing his best too. For him, it was frustrating. There was one time he was probably five or six and a neighbor girl came over to invite him to go to the park and she knocked on the door and we answered it and she said, "Hey, Jack, want to come play at the park with me?" And her dad was with her. It was a really safe situation, but he didn't know how to handle it. So, he just like froze and he turned around 180 degrees and just let her stare at the back of his head, and he just shut off.Laura: Oh, wow.Emily: And then they're looking at me like, "So what's going on with your son?" And I'm looking at my poor son, just my heart breaking. I don't know if they were judging me, but at the time, I felt judged. I could imagine them thinking, "Why can't you teach your son social skills instead of realizing, "Oh, your son is trying so hard. He just had a hard time."Laura: From that moment to where you are now, what kinds of things helped you cope with feeling, judged, and what kinds of strategies maybe brought you and Jack closer together or things that you would say?Emily: Mindset is huge. Realizing that he wasn't just trying to be bad, or he wasn't choosing to be impulsive and he wasn't intentionally melting down, realizing that he was really doing his best. There was just a lot going on for him. That helped me out a lot. Also starting to see behavior as communication of something bigger. That was a huge deal. Like, that's probably the biggest thing that I tried to share with everyone.My website has a freebie on why is my child melting down and what's at the root of their intense emotions. And it's this five-step cheat sheet that I, I try to just get everyone to take a look at because the more that we understand that "My child is not intentionally being bad, it's not their fault. It's not my fault. They just need help developing these skills." Like, it just changed me from being upset and trying to get him to behave a certain way to being completely compassionate and trying to help him develop those skills.Laura: Wow.Emily: I say completely, but I'm still human.Laura: Yeah.Emily: I still mess up. I still go back to like, "Why are you doing this?" Pulling my hair out, OK I'm gonna pause. He's doing his best. And what is going on? instead of this like, "What is my child doing?" It's like, "Huh, what is my child doing?" Moving from judging my own child to curiosity, that's helped me, and then realizing other people might be judging me. And they might not be. And it's OK. Like I can be a good mom, even if they're judging me.Laura: A lot of what you just described is the reason that I just went back to therapy. I'm not kidding. I recently went back to therapy just to cope with like, "How am I reacting to my kids? How can I change my mindset about things that bother me, etc." I'm wondering if you could maybe call out a few of the areas where it's tricky to unravel what is a gifted type behavior versus an ADHD behavior. If it's helpful to start you off, I heard you talking about boredom. And from what I know from our experts that we work with, I know that boredom can be a big factor for gifted kids. But boredom is also something that a lot of kids with ADHD struggle with. So, talk to me about symptoms.Emily: I feel like there is a lot of crossover. I've never actually thought about separating them. For my son and for me, we don't see our ADHD as like a debilitating or a disability. We see it as a superpower. Because, and that's actually what I thought was going on. His mind was just always going so fast, and that helped him learn things really quickly and it helped him understand and it helped him come up with these ideas. But it also leads to like acting really fast and you can't wait your turn to speak. You just have to blurt out your answer right now because it's fresh on your mind and you can't wait to share it and interrupting conversations, acting without thinking. I always thought it was just the super-fast brain.But a lot of things like impulsivity is a symptom of ADHD. And I'm like, "But being spontaneous," that's what we always call it, "is really fun and it can be really creative," right? So, is that the giftedness, or is that what most people think is ADHD actually having a good spin on the same symptom?Laura: How does Jack identify? Does he use terms like 2e year or twice exceptional, gifted, ADHD, or just not a thing for him?Emily: It's not really a thing for him. Once in a while, he'll say, "Hey Mom, so I was at school..." and stop mid-sentence, and then he'll come back and say, "Is that because I have ADHD?" Like, he's asking why he just stopped mid-sentence.Laura: Wow. Good for him. I love that curiosity.Emily: And so, we approach it from like, "Yeah, it's likely and it's OK, right? And so, we were totally accepting of it in our house. And rather than, "Oh, that's what's wrong with me," we use it as, "Oh, that explains that quirk."Laura: So, let's talk about your "aha" moment, Emily. When you were going through the evaluation process with Jack, which symptoms stuck out to you? Which symptoms in particular that really spoke to you and who you are as a person?Emily: There are a lot. I think interrupting was an obvious one. When I was first married, I would interrupt my husband a lot to the point where he thought I just didn't care what he was talking about and he thought I didn't care about anything he had to say. And that wasn't it at all. I cared a lot. It was just like the thought came into my head in my mouth opened up, and I didn't realize I was doing it until he stopped me. One day he was like, "Do you realize you just interrupted me like five times in this conversation? You didn't let me finish my sentence." And I stopped and was like, "Oh, really? And why am I doing that?" I was like, "Oh, OK. Well, that's one of my quirks."When I was younger, I did really well in school, but in college, for example, I thought everybody had the same struggles I did with sitting down and reading a textbook. I had to go to the gym to read a textbook. I had to get on a treadmill and walk or ride a bike, or I had to find an empty classroom and stand at a podium and read it out loud or pace around the classroom while reading it out loud, just to get myself to focus on it. So, I did really well in school, and I thought everyone had those struggles. And I honestly, I was graduated, and I was dating my husband, who was still in school, and we sat down — I sat down to grade papers. I was a teacher at the time — and he just put out this super boring history textbook and he sat there, and he read it, and he was turning pages. And I said, "Are you actually like paying attention to that?" He was like, "Yeah." I'm like, "No, like, you didn't have to go back and reread that first page six times?" And he was like, "No, I'm just reading it and paying attention."Laura: Oh my God. It boggles the mind. I mean, for sure I can't. I see people do that too, and I'm like, "What are you doing? Aren't you like, how are you just not moving around?"Emily: Yeah, he wasn't like twitching in his leg or like flipping a highlighter lit or like anything that I do to cope. And I was in my early twenties and was like, "Wait, that's possible? I really thought everyone struggled to read something boring like that."Laura: What about impulsivity? You mentioned that Jack has struggled with some impulsivity or some spontaneity. He has the luxury of being spontaneous. What about you?Emily: Oh, yeah. I'm a teacher and a mom, and it makes for a really fun teacher role. I'll just be sitting with the kids and be like, "You know what, kids? Let's go on a turkey hunt." And we had nothing to do with the lesson plan, but I just looked at the kids and they were fidgeting and the idea pops in my head and suddenly we're acting out a turkey hunt in the classroom and it's so much fun. But I do have to temper it because we want to be wise with that.It's easier as an adult. I think as a child, when my upper brain wasn't fully developed, it was my classic example. I was five or six and I was at my grandma's house visiting her. She had this beautiful — it was probably a handmade doily — on one of her end tables, and there was someone had set a pair of scissors on it. You already know what happened.Laura: Oh, my God.Emily: I didn't even think, I was just like, "I wonder what it's like to cut through that doily." And so, I picked up the scissors and I just cut right through. I don't even know if I cut through it. I just remember cutting it and feeling I was just curious to know the texture of when the scissors went through it. I honestly wasn't trying to be bad. I didn't even think it through. I was just like, "I wonder what it's like to cut through that doily." And I try to remind myself of that when my kids do things that I'm like, "What in the world are you doing?" And like, they probably weren't thinking. They probably just had a thought pop into their head, and they acted on it.Laura: Oh, my gosh. Emily, this is reminding me of something. When I was a kid, I remember that I didn't feel like I had enough shelves in my room, so I just went in, got some shoeboxes and some super glue, and I glued them up to the wall. And they were obviously, they were not perfectly straight either, so they were tilted, so the shelves didn't really work, but I just super glued a bunch of shoeboxes to the wall, and I was like, "Why are Mom and Dad so mad?"Emily: I think that's incredibly creative, which I feel like people with ADHD are incredibly creative. We have these out-of-the-box thoughts who would think to go and grab shoeboxes and super glue it into the wall? Like we could say that negatively, like “Who would ever think to do this?" But we can also think, "Oh my goodness, that is brilliant." You saw a need in your room and you just went for it and you totally thought of a solution that nobody else would have thought of. That's incredible.Laura: Thank you, Emily. And that's very, that's very validating. I appreciate it. Can you call my parents after we record?Laura: Has your son getting diagnosed with ADHD and now you knowing that you have ADHD, has that created a unique bond in any way? Is that brought you closer together? It sounds like you've always been close, but just curious.Emily: Yeah, it's helped me be a lot more empathetic, like where I realized, "Well, I wasn't trying to interrupt my husband," and when he interrupts me, I'm like, "He's not trying to do this. It just kind of that that in his head, in his mouth opened up."Laura: Right.Emily: I'll say something like, "This is our superpower." And his little brother was recently diagnosed with ADHD also. And I'm a little bit suspicious that the third one might have it, but he's not quite old enough yet for us to get him evaluated. And so, yeah, I just, my poor neurotypical husband, he never understands why we're like so creative and so spontaneous and just...Laura: I bet he loves it. That's got to be really exciting, right?Emily: He does, I mean, he married me for a reason, right?Laura: That's a lot of spice of life that you're going to have that you already have in your house.Emily: It is.Laura: You're like "It is, I'm tired."Emily: It's fun. It's fun. I really, I mean, I wouldn't want my kids any other way, but it is a lot of work. Yeah, it really the hardest has been the emotional dysregulation part of it that I had to learn to temper myself. I would just flip a switch and get angry so fast when they were doing something that I thought that they shouldn't and learning to catch myself before I get to that ten.Laura: That is so hard. I find that to be the most difficult thing about parenting. You know, I'll be fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, being a quote-unquote model mom, and I'm just I'm responding calmly to things and gently nudging and teachable moments. And then I just get to this point and I'm just like, "Just go to bed," and I just want to lose it. I'm like, "You got to get out of here. I can't answer this question again." And the way I just said it, it's putting it mildly. So, I feel you and I'm working on it. It's a journey.Emily: We're all working on. It sounds like you're human. Isn't that great?Laura: Thank you.Emily: And we were talking about like ADHD being a superpower. A lot of things list oversharing as a part of ADHD, and I was a little bit mind blown when I read that because I was like, "I've always called it being authentic." And I realized a lot of my really close friends also have ADHD, and a lot of us didn't know until we were in adulthood. And I realized like I was being authentic, they were being authentic.Maybe people were a little bit weirded out because they called it oversharing, but we connected with each other and just felt like we were totally open. And when people come to know me, they know the real me. I can't hide it very well. It's just who I am. And so that it's another spin on "Sure, you might be able to call it oversharing," but for me, I'm like, "I'm just telling it how it is, and now you know who I really am."Laura: You are so good at spinning this. So, I'm going to run down what I've heard so far, and then I may ask for more. So, oversharing, reframing that as authentic. Impulsive, reframing that as spontaneous. Can I try out a few more on you and see what you come back with?Emily: Sure, let's.Laura: Hyperactivity. Hyperactive.Emily: Energetic.Laura: Yeah. Distracted.Emily: Overly attentive.Laura: Oh, this is great. You're so good at this. Let me think. How about disorganized?Emily: I'm still struggling with that one.Laura: Creative.Emily: Human.Laura: Human, there you go. Forgetful.Emily: Oh, learning to use tools. Using a phone alarm all day long.Laura: Got it. Oh, my gosh, procrastinating.Emily: Oh, yeah. You're hitting some of my pain points right now.Laura: Sorry.Emily: Yeah, I don't have a creative spin on that one.Laura: So, you've learned to flip the ones that are primarily maybe your kid's symptoms, but tougher when it's things that are more about us.Emily: Well, yeah, I think just learning to flip the ones that I really do see as being able to be helpful. I can't, procrastinating is just one of those hard things we have to learn to find ways to deal with it, I guess.Laura: That was really good. I'm really impressed with your ability to do that. It's just like you really, your mindset is really lovely.Emily: Thank you.Laura: What's one or two things that you wish more people understood about ADHD?Emily: I think the biggest thing is that people with ADHD are really doing their best, that we're not interrupting you because we don't care about you. I guess that's the biggest one. People with ADHD are doing their best and that might look different than someone's best that doesn't have ADHD, but it doesn't mean that the efforts are not there still. And in fact, many times we're trying two or three times as much to do the same thing.Laura: Tell our listeners about your podcast.Emily: As you said, it's called "Enlightening Motherhood," and our goal is to help moms who are feeling overwhelmed with their children's big emotions, which often lead to big behaviors, too. And it's meant to help empower them so that we can turn that overwhelm to confidence so that they can confidently parent their children. It starts with us with our mindsets, with being able to handle those difficulties, and then we learn a lot of tools that we can apply to parenting.Laura: Emily, it's been so great to talk with you today. Thank you so much for doing this and just for your candor.Emily: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And I love the work you're doing with this podcast and with Understood. I love to follow you on Instagram and just the compassion that you have for not only people that are neurodivergent, but also trying to get the information out there in the world so that we can all understand each other a little bit more. I just love your mission and what you're standing for.Laura: Oh, thank you so much. You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine!Jessamine: Hi everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.
12 questions to ask the school about 2e students
What do you need to know about how your child’s school supports gifted students with learning and thinking differences? One key question is whether the school is aware of the Department of Education’s guidance around supporting twice-exceptional (2e) learners.See a list of other questions to ask the school below. You can print this list by clicking the view or download link below.How do you define a gifted and talented student?When are students screened for gifted and talented identification? What measures do you use?Do you have a specific program for twice-exceptional (2e) students?What type of instruction do you offer for 2e learners?Do you have teachers with training in teaching children like mine?What enrichment activities do you offer for gifted students?Do 2e students typically receive accommodations through an IEP or a 504 plan?How do you offer emotional support to 2e students?What support do you provide for kids who are thriving in some areas and struggling in others?How do you propose to use my child’s strengths to work on challenges?Do you have any resources to help me learn more about how you support 2e students?How can I help you better understand my child?Explore common myths about 2e students. And read about a parent’s unique IEP solution for his 2e son.
The Opportunity GapTwice-exceptional Black and brown kids
Kids who have learning and thinking differences can also be gifted. But what does being “twice exceptional” mean when you’re marginalized?Kids who have learning and thinking differences or other disabilities can also be gifted. This is known as being “twice exceptional,” or “2e.” But what does twice exceptional mean for Black and brown kids? In this episode, hosts Julian Saavedra and Marissa Wallace explore how kids who struggle with learning can also have incredible talents and skills. But for marginalized kids, these abilities are often overlooked. Gifted testing may be biased against them. The hosts react to startling statistics about how few kids of color are in gifted programs. Listen for thoughts and advice on how families can get schools to focus on their kids’ exceptional abilities, not just their challenges.Related resourcesGifted children’s challenges with learning and thinking differences12 questions to ask your school about 2e studentsWhen gifted kids need accommodations, too (In It podcast episode)National Center for Education StatisticsPublic school gifted or 2e programs mentioned in this episode:Montgomery County Public Schools twice exceptional students and servicesChicago’s U-46 gifted and talented academy (in process of renaming) Aurora Public Schools definition of gifted and talentedArizona Public Media news article on Southwest Junior HighEpisode transcriptJulian: Welcome to "The Opportunity Gap," a podcast for families of kids of color who learn and think differently. We explore issues of privilege, race, and identity. And our goal is to help you advocate for your child. I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: And I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian and I worked together for years as teachers in a public charter school in Philadelphia, where we saw opportunity gaps firsthand.Julian: And we're both parents of kids of color. So this is personal to us.Welcome back to "The Opportunity Gap." What's up, Marissa?Marissa: Good to be back. How are you doing, Julian?Julian: I've got to take a deep breath. If I'm being honest.Marissa: We can do that.Julian: Today was a day. Today was a day. You know, tomorrow's a new day, so we start fresh tomorrow and we see where it goes.Marissa: And it's Friday tomorrow.Julian: It is Friday. Fri-yay!Marissa: And Lincoln's birthday! We have a 6-year-old in our house tomorrow, so that's happening.Julian: Oh, snap, OK. What are you going to do for the little guy?Marissa: He's actually going to have a dance party. So he's having a hip-hop-themed dance party.Julian: Well, hopefully his dad is not going to be teaching him how to dance. Because I've seen that man try to get on the floor and he just needs to sit down, take a seat.Marissa: Lincoln's got it.Julian: Lincoln will dance circles around him. I'm sure he'll do the wobble and everything else. So, I'm actually pretty hyped about today's episode because it really is hitting at the intersection of a lot of the things that we've been talking about. And so I want to really dig in and dive in to the idea that there's so many exceptional students out there. So many students that have gifted possibilities. So many students that also have learning disabilities and learning and thinking differences. And so many of them that are Black and brown students that are not being given the services that they deserve.So let's go into Julian as a teacher. Back in the day, I was the history teacher, and I was definitely a popular teacher and the kids liked me. But I also knew that there was a lot of things I didn't know about how to teach, especially when it came to students with learning and thinking differences. And I remember this one student, his parents were immigrants. They were refugees. They had come from Central America, and neither one of them spoke English. But he had learned English on his own, and he was kind of a quiet, brooding type. He'd kind of chill in the back, not really talk too much. But he had been identified as having a learning disability. And so a lot of his teachers thought that he didn't really want to be engaged with the activity. He'd never acted out or anything. He just kind of just sat there and didn't really do much. So this one in particular, though, because I taught history, for some reason, it sparked an interest in him.And so, when he came to my class, we would have these crazy-deep conversations about his thoughts on history. When I taught about World War II, he had such an in-depth knowledge of Nazism and of the Allied forces. He could name every single general on the Allied side, with the correct pronunciation for the French generals. He could name the different battles. He could tell me every single type of airplane, the B-52s, and all of the things that were involved in this war. And I found out that he had gone home and memorized everything. And I'm sitting there like, "Bro, you've been sitting in the back of this class for the last, like, three months, not saying a word. And then out of nowhere, you come out and have all of these facts. Where does this come from?"So, as I got to know him more, I've found that the learning disability manifests itself in his struggle to stay focused in the moment. But if he found something that interested him, he was completely bought in. And so we worked together with him and some other male teachers, kind of got together and really tried to push him to show what he really knew. And over time we found out that he really loved writing, he really loved history, and he loved to write about his experiences. He graduated eighth grade, he went on to high school, he went to college, and he has just finished writing his first book.Marissa: Wow.Julian: And he is going to different places around the world to learn more about the history so that he can write about them. He actually participated in Bernie Sanders' campaign. And one of the coolest pictures that I've ever seen is this student in the back with the Bern, hanging out with him during this campaign. And I'm thinking back to when he was an eighth grader, sitting in the back of my class, telling me about World War II and Allies and communism and Nazism, and here he is, working with this man that is in big-time politics. And it makes me think, "Why did we never test him to see if he was gifted?"Marissa: Absolutely. Thank you, Julian, for sharing that story. I think it's really a fantastic way to start this conversation. If I think back to 12 years ago and where I was as an educator, I don't think I was able to navigate students who had this twice exceptionality.Before we really get in, let's talk a little bit first and foremost about some of these definitions, right? So, when we're talking about twice-exceptional kids, understanding first, this idea of gifted, right? So what gifted is, is this exceptional talent or a natural ability compared to others, right? So, if we look at, like, you know, what's considered average, these are individuals who perform above average compared to their peers and their experiences, their environments. They're performing above average. So, a child or individual who's twice exceptional is a child who also has this gifted ability, this exceptionality, and also a disability. So, some other ways we can think about it, right, is a kid who has learning and thinking differences but also has, like, a really exceptional ability when it comes to their cognitive ability, their processing skills, right?There's, like, natural talent that they have. I know parents, I talked to there's this reference to 2e, if you hear Julia and I interchange and say the word 2e —Julian: It's like a superhero: 2e.Marissa: Twice exceptional. Yes, exactly! Right. I love it. Like, it's such a cool term. I think it's still like, we're breaking through some barriers in this conversation today. But I'd love for us to just keep these terms in mind as we go through the conversation and just give them some power in some shout-outs.So let's just dive in to what does giftedness mean for Black and brown kids? Let's start with that.Julian: I will say that my personal experience is that I have lived as a Black man in this society. I am also Hispanic, but my primary experience has been as a member of the African American community. When I think about students, though, specifically Black and brown all across this country, giftedness is — it's a very unclear topic. Traditionally, giftedness falls into the academic realm. There's a variety of tests that are taken, and those tests relate to an IQ score. And that score is determining whether or not that student is considered gifted because their score puts them so far above what the average IQ tests would be for the average student.So, let's unpack that a little bit. As we know, or maybe you don't know, standardized tests historically have been very biased, from the way that they are written, the questions that they are asking, the background knowledge that they are referencing. And in many cases, the people that are giving the test, all of those things include biases that are oppressive to marginalized communities and specifically the Black and brown kids.The prevalence of those tests and the identification process for students to potentially even be considered gifted also is not nearly as strong in urban communities where many of our Black and brown kids live. It's one of the things that gets cut first, when we talk about schools that are strapped for cash.And so all of that leads to a situation where many of our students are not even being pushed to be considered as being gifted in the academic realm. But on a personal level, I'm also thinking of the idea of this word "exceptionalism." You said when you define "gifted," it's being exceptional. So, for somebody that lives in a society that is already designed to support a specific group of people, on a racial level, for them to exist, just to exist, that, in my view, makes them exceptional. For somebody to have multiple barriers to success, whether it be socioeconomic status, whether it be race, ethnicity, language, documentation or lack thereof, and still to be able to be successful and thrive in that. Doesn't that make them exceptional too?Marissa: We haven't even started to talk about the other ways in which someone can be exceptional. All the creative ways in which someone can show forth art, music, talents that we don't look at either. I think just overall there's like this lack of looking at strength and looking at, and like you said, like, what are we comparing it to? You said it perfectly when you were talking through how these standardized tests and the assessments and what is done to go through the evaluation process to be identified as gifted. It is very biased, and it's just not happening in a lot of schools. Even just talking about the student you were sharing about in the beginning, that kid probably went through K through 12 without being identified for his exceptionality. And clearly he had an exceptional talent that thankfully you saw, but why did it have to take that long?And why did he have to be, like, the kid in the back of the classroom who's withdrawn?Julian: You multiply that by millions of people over decades, and you think about how many of our Black and brown students over decades of being in schools have not been even given a chance to increase their exposure to challenging topics, to show and demonstrate their giftedness.Marissa: So as we're kind of discussing this, Julian, you know, it keeps coming through my mind, like, you know, I know from my research alone that there is this overrepresentation of students in the Black and brown communities that are identified in special education, but an underrepresentation of Black and brown individuals within a gifted identification. So I'm curious, Andrew, what are our statistics in this area?Andrew: We had been talking, right, before this episode about some of the statistics around gifted education and disability. So, I looked it up on the National Center for Education Statistics, and, yeah, there is a disparity. Around 8 percent of white students and 13 percent of Asian American students in public schools are in gifted programs. And then by contrast, it's only about 5 percent of Hispanic students and 4 percent of Black students. It actually gets down even less than that in some years.Julian: Wow. A third for Asian versus Black and Hispanic.Andrew: And on the other side, if you look at kids with IEPs, comparing them by race, you know, again, Black students, 17 percent have IEPs, which is higher than the average of 14 percent of students. So, they're overidentified in special education, underidentified in terms of being part of those gifted programs. Interestingly enough, in those statistics are the underidentification for giftedness, just by a percentage, is actually bigger.Julian: I mean, I just have to let that sit for a second. Hearing those numbers, it always, it always hits home when the data speaks. And the data is speaking to us and saying that clearly what we're saying anecdotally is actually truth.Marissa: Exactly.Julian: What I'm interested in, though, is digging more into the fact that Asian and those who identify as white, the higher prevalence of those students in gifted programs. And wondering what are your thoughts on that? I mean, 13 percent of Asian students in gifted programs, like, that's a really fascinating number given that cohort of students is also a minority in our country.Andrew: As someone who's looked at this issue and is also Asian American, I feel like I can speak to this. So, the Asian American community is very diverse. If you look at Cambodian or Vietnamese Americans, for example, they are underrepresented in gifted programs, while other groups are overrepresented. People tend to lump all Asian Americans together, but there's actually a lot of differences between communities. You know, some groups came to the United States as refugees without any money or resources. Other groups came because they had some specialized skills and were recruited by companies. So, it's really hard to generalize and that's going to impact whether or not a family's kids have the advantages to be able to get into a gifted program or be in the right neighborhood. The other thing I would say is that just because you're in a gifted program, it may not be serving you in the best way. You know, a lot of the Asian American people that I speak to feel like there's not enough identification of Asian American kids for learning differences and ADHD. You know, the feeling is you're Asian American, you must, you're too smart. How do you have this problem? Just work harder.Julian: Well, that that's that model minority myth. And I love that you brought up the diversity within a subgroup.Marissa: Absolutely. Andrew, I appreciate you sharing some of that information and your experiences because it does, like, these statistics, while they're jarring, they're not surprising.Julian: Let's go back to our Black and brown kids' learning and thinking differences, but also gifted, 2e.Marissa: 2e, let's do it.Julian: Marissa, I'd love to hear more about what you've learned in your studies and your dissertation work, and in general, how does this play out?Marissa: The main thing is that in general, 2e students are not receiving appropriate programming across the board. I see that a lot, especially with our Black and brown students, because again, based on kind of the experiences they have within schools, educators are very quick to see a behavior. And that behavior becomes the problem they need to address. Right? So student's withdrawn; student can't sit still; student has outburst, right? They're calling out during class. There's behaviors that are disrupting what they believe an ideal classroom looks like. They must need support or services. So then the process usually starts where they're being evaluated to receive special education services.Now, oftentimes there is an aspect of it that does focus on academics and does focus on cognitive ability. Those tests are also done, correct? Now, I think more recently, we're starting to look at those scores more so than we did in the past and be like, "Oh, wow, like, this child is performing above average cognitively, academically," and then they are receiving that twice-exceptionality — that 2e — identification.What I think is missing, though, is I still feel like their programming is built upon the behaviors. So it was focusing on the disability part more so than actually challenging them. So now you're seeing situations where a highly intelligent kid is being pulled out, right? Or the weakness is being focused on and not the strength. And it's interesting right now, because I'm talking to families. And I don't know if this is, like, a solution, but it may be for some families. What's working? Some of the families that I work with now left brick-and-mortar schools because it was way more challenging, they felt, for their students to get their needs met there. But because of the flexibility of virtual learning and virtual programming, they're noticing their students who are identified as 2e are having some success because we have the power to be like, "Oh, you're an eighth-grade student, but you're performing above grade level in math? Great. Cool. We're going to put you in a geometry class." And so we can do that because they're not going to different classroom. You know what I'm saying? They're just, their schedule just looks different. They're just attending that 10th-grade class while being in eighth grade. I'm not saying virtual learning is the answer, per se, but I'm seeing it as something that some parents are becoming interested in seeing if this is the programming that works best for their child.Julian: I'm thinking just on a practical level, say I'm listening to Andrew, Marissa, and Julian talk about 2e and my child is showing signs that they may very well have exceptional ability, but maybe that child already has an IEP for any sort of learning disability. What do I do? What's my next step?Marissa: Well, one, talk to your student, right? Talk to your team. I always say the IEP team is, like, that first family of people you go to have conversations. And remember the IEP is the individualized education plan for your child. So those would be your first kind of, like, line of defense to start the conversation with. And then you as the parent have the right to be like, "Hey, my kid also needs this."One thing we should definitely go over too, Julian, is like the idea of a gifted IEP. Because I think even though it's not a federal mandate to have a gifted program, there are states, district, schools that do that and do it well. And so the parents have to know how to ask for those things to be put in place for your student.Julian: Anybody out there that's listening along with us — families, caretakers, guardians, friends, students, anybody. I mean, thinking about the letters IEP, there's a weight with those letters. There's a weight with that acronym. And sometimes that weight steers to a negative connotation — that it means something's wrong with you, so you need help, right? Like, "I have an IEP. That means that I need to get extra services because something's not clicking right." Let me be the one to tell you you're wrong. And if you think that's what an IEP only is about, you're wrong. An IEP is an individualized education program. It say things that people are going to do as a team to help the student be in an environment that is going to support them to get to the best possible potential.So, the idea that it's just weaknesses, the idea that it's just going to focus on things that are wrong? No. Don't think that at all, especially for my folks that are students of color, my folks that have already dealt with things that have happened in schools that might not be so great. I understand completely. I've worked in schools for a while, and I know that sometimes we are not treated the way that we deserve to be treated. We got to reframe that. We have to change that and realize that this is a place to be empowered. Having an IEP, especially, pushing the school to figure out what are they going to do for your child if they are gifted?Marissa: And that's the stepping stone.Julian: You got to go in there and ask questions.Marissa: Like, use it as a benefit. That's my push, it's like, regardless of how you got the IEP, right? If your child has the IEP and you feel that there's something missing and you feel they have an exceptionality, use that as that stepping stone, because it is a legal document. So, regardless of whether or not your particular school has a gifted program, like, utilize that to be able to then say, "Hey, like in addition to this particular accommodation or specially designed instruction to help my student with this behavior, can we also put in this extension or this activity or something that can also challenge them and meet their needs academically, as well?"Julian: I will say that I'm excited to be in the school district that I live in, where my own children attend. There is a pretty robust gifted program.Marissa: That's awesome.Julian: And what I've found out is that not only are all students eligible, they do a mandatory gifted screening for everybody. And when this gifted screening happens, if a student has an IEP or learning and thinking differences, any sort of assessments are also in place for the gifted screening. It makes sure that everybody has an even playing field. This program that I see these kids doing robotics and taking Legos and making these really cool structures, and they're going out and doing project-based learning.Marissa: And that's what it's all about. That's amazing.Julian: And the district I'm in, it's incredibly diverse. You have Black kids, white kids, Asian, everybody kind of coming together in these groups and really doing some big, powerful things.Marissa: You found the unicorn, Julian. You found the unicorn school district.Julian: I mean, it's not the unicorn, but it definitely is, well, this, I mean, we talked about earlier, like it's not something that should be a unicorn.Marissa: Exactly.Julian: And not to say that the district is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And Andrew has found examples of powerful things happening all across the country. So trust and believe, like, it's not only one place, outside of Philadelphia, that's happening. Like, it's all over the country.Marissa: Thank goodness.Andrew: There seem to be roses everywhere from all these different cracks, to borrow your analogy, Julian.Julian: Is somebody listening to Tupac?Marissa: Or listening to our podcast.Andrew: Again, right before we started recording, we did some research just to see, like, where are people doing some interesting things around both gifted programs for kids but also twice-exceptional programs. And there were some really interesting ones. I mean, you just mentioned the universal screening. So, Montgomery County public school district, in Maryland, they actually had some criticism over the years because their gifted programs are very slanted toward white kids. And they really made this effort to do the universal screening, as you mentioned. So, instead of just like you apply to the gifted program, they said, "No, we're not doing that. Every kid, we're going to see if they're gifted. And not only that — we're going to match them up with whatever the screening processes they have for disabilities for learning and thinking differences." And that's not perfect, but that's made some differences there, which I think are pretty cool.Chicago School District U-46 was really interesting because a lot of people say that they really prove that these gifted programs could be diverse and that they could integrate them. And that was a really cool thing to see. And Colorado — in Aurora Public Schools, what they did was they used different measures. So, you guys talked at the beginning about sort of having IQ tests that have been traditionally biased. Instead, they looked at all the different tests they were giving and they sort of applied them in different ways to make sure that their programs were diverse, were integrated, were not just slanted toward one group or another, but really captured everybody who is gifted.Julian: Oh, I love that. I love that it seems like they took theory to practice. I mean, the word "equity" and "anti-racism" has been the punchline of the year, but I love that I'm hearing about actual tangible changes that are benefiting everybody. And it seems like these programs you're talking about are exactly it, it's theory to practice. So, that's dope.Andrew: Let me share one more that I thought was really cool was in Yuma, Arizona. So, Southwest Junior High — and there's a center at Johns Hopkins for, like, talented youth, and they always identify the top 10 junior highs in the country, and they identified Southwest Junior High, near the Mexican-American border, which has a really great gifted program. And the demographics of that school are heavily Hispanic, a lot of immigrant families. So it was just cool to see that happening and to give, like, real concrete stuff. We'll put some links to these programs in the show notes. I'm sure if people dig in, there's always drawbacks, but it's still great to see some of these things happening.Marissa: There's no perfect scenario yet, right, that we know of, but at least there are educational systems that are taking steps in the right direction to do better.Julian: So, we just touched the tip of the iceberg. Just the tip of the iceberg. You know, anybody out there that is choosing to listen to us first, we appreciate it. We want to hear from you. We want to hear what you'd like us to discuss. What topics are you interested in? What things should we lift up specifically around the opportunity gap?You can always reach us at opportunitygap@understood.org. You can call Andrew; he's giving his personal number at the job.Andrew: That's actually the show voicemail.Julian: Just kidding, just kidding. 646-616-1213, extension 705. Again.Marissa: As parents, as educators, like, Julian and I have spent literally over a decade having these conversations, and so we know how meaningful it is for us to discuss some of these topics. So hearing your thoughts, and especially as we dig into something where it may be a new term, this 2e, this twice exceptionality, and we want to know if you have had experiences of success within your own families.Julian: Please, feel empowered to go to your schools or go to whomever you're dealing with in the educational pathways. What are they doing to help address giftedness? Are there programs out there? What is the gifted program availability? What does the screener look like? What ways are they challenging? Even if your student is not deemed to be gifted, they still deserve to be challenged, and they still deserve to have extra activities to meet their needs. Feel empowered to go in and ask.Julian: This has been "The Opportunity Gap," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "The Opportunity Gap" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.Marissa: If you found what you hear today valuable, please share the podcast. "The Opportunity Gap" is for you. We want to hear your voice.Go to u.org/opportunitygap to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash opportunity gap.Julian: Do you have something you'd like to say about the issues we discussed on this podcast? Email us at opportunitygap@understood.org. We'd love to share and react to your thoughts about "The Opportunity Gap."Marissa: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors.Julian: Thanks again for listening.
How the documentary “2e: Twice Exceptional” made me a more hopeful parent
I’m always wary of telling people my sons are twice exceptional, or 2e. It means they’re intellectually gifted and have learning differences. I could explain this to people. But I worry they’ll stop listening after I say “gifted.”Sometimes I feel like people think one “E” makes up for the other “E.” As if the gifted part cancels out all the learning challenges. The truth, however, is the two multiply and make my kids twice as complicated.People don’t always understand that I’m also twice as worried about them. I cry behind closed doors because I don’t want other people to tell me I should be grateful they’re gifted. In my mind, those gifts make them stand out twice as much.But when I watched the new documentary 2e: Twice Exceptional, I couldn’t hold back. I cried openly with tears of relief and recognition. Here’s the trailer for the film.The film follows a small class of students at Bridges Academy, a school in California for 2e students. The film weaves together stories from students, parents and teachers about the joy and challenge of teaching these kids.I was in awe — the students in the film are so much like my sons!I laughed hearing the kids in the movie say things like: “You tell me to look you in the eye and I want to know which eye should I look in!” That’s just like my sons. They have no problem reading books, but reading social cues is tough.I was also struck by the knowledge of the school staff profiled in the film. One psychologist explained how kids who are way ahead intellectually may be way behind socially. That disparity, she explained, can cause great anxiety.“Yes!” I said to myself, when she talked about how these kids tend to disregard their talents because of their challenges.The film shows that when you work at reaching 2e kids by building on their strengths, they really can soar.In one scene, a student asked offbeat questions about the geography of the places in The Great Gatsby. His teachers realized the best way for the student to study the book was to literally create a map. Once he created the map, he became more invested in the characters and the literary themes.I also deeply identified with the parents in the film. I knew exactly what one mother meant when she said she thought her son would be at home forever. She didn’t know if he would go to college or get a job. Like her, I worry that my oldest son might not be able to handle the “real” world. I celebrated with her as I watched her son blossom throughout the film.For me, the most moving part was when one of the school’s teachers spoke about happiness. He said:Happiness is just this kind of trill that happens in the melody. Like, there’s the melody of your life and then every once in a while, there’s a little trill, a little something extra. And that’s what happiness is ... except if you’re not singing the song, you’re not gonna get the trill anyway. So you gotta sing the song.As parents, I think we need to encourage our kids to sing their song. That’s how they can find their happiness — the trill in the melody. But we also need to sing our own song. All my worrying about my sons can dampen my happiness, but this documentary is a trill in the melody for a parent of 2e kids.The film reminds me that there are more kids out there like mine than I might think. It shows me there are people who understand them and will accept them for their gifts and their challenges. And that gives me so much hope.Do you have 2e children? Learn more about their rights in school. And explore questions to ask the school about meeting their unique needs.
ADHD Aha!ADHD and hormones (Catie Osborn’s story)
Catie Osborn’s ADHD flew under the radar until her late 20s, when she experienced a hormone shift that made her ADHD symptoms much more noticeable. Catie Osborn’s ADHD flew under the radar until she had to get an ovary removed in her late 20s. Left with one ovary (“Han Solo-vary”), she experienced a hormone shift that made her ADHD symptoms much more noticeable. Catie is a former “gifted kid” who excelled in school. Growing up, she didn’t fit ADHD stereotypes, aside from being a bit messy. Once she was diagnosed, she started seeing ADHD flags everywhere. Hear what she’s learned from her experience and her work, like how hormones — especially in people who get periods — can impact ADHD symptoms.Catie, aka catieosaurus on TikTok, is a certified sex educator, neurodivergency specialist, and co-host of the podcast Catie and Erik’s Infinite Quest: An ADHD Adventure. Related resourcesADHD and eating disordersADHD and messinessADHD in girlsEpisode transcript Catie: After my ovary was removed, the shift in my hormones was so profound that my ADHD that had sort of been like under the surface really started showing up in a lot more places in my life in a way that was very, very scary. I couldn't remember things. I couldn't focus. I couldn't sit down to do my work. And so I got diagnosed with ADHD and I learned that ADHD and PCOS — polycystic ovary syndrome — are very connected. And so I guess my "aha" moment came like three days after my diagnosis because I went, "Oh. OK. Those hormones the whole time. All right."Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I am really happy to be here with you today, Catie Osborn.Catie: Hello.Laura: Catie Osborn, also known Catieosaurus on TikTok. Catie is a certified sex educator and a neurodivergency specialist. And also she is the co-host of "Catie and Erik's Infinite Quest and ADHD Adventure." I've been listening to so much of your show lately, Catie. I really, really enjoy it. So candid, so real, so relatable.Catie: Oh, thank you.Laura: Erik Gude is your co-host. I'm excited to dive into some of the topics that the two of you talk about. But first, this is a show called "ADHD Aha!" And your "aha!" moment is so interesting and so educational for a lot of people, especially women. So let's just start there. Tell me about your ADHD "aha" moment. When did you start to think you might have ADHD?Catie: Our tale begins when I was 29. So it feels important to contextualize before I tell the "aha" moment that I was extremely good at school growing up. And I grew up in the '90s when sort of like the conversation around ADHD was that it was very much like a school thing. It was very much like a "little kids who like mess around in the back of the classroom" type of thing. And so I will fully confess that I was very undereducated on ADHD and what ADHD could look like in different people, and just like the range and sort of spectrum of, you know, symptoms associated with ADHD.And so growing up, I was great at school. I was amazing at school. I loved school. It was my thing. But I was terrible at like keeping my room clean. I was terrible at organizing. I was really bad at like, you know, managing my emotions. I had all of these like little underlying, sort of like tiny red flags. But because I was very academically successful, I sort of just flew under that radar.And so I went to college, I went to grad school, I got several master's degrees. And all along the way, I'm just burning myself out a little bit more and burning myself out a little bit more and burning myself out, you know, a little bit more. Struggling to cope, struggling to keep up and all this stuff.And then I had an ovarian torsion, which I do not recommend. So basically I had a cyst on my right ovary and the cyst got so large that the weight of it basically pulled my ovary like around itself inside my body, and the circulation to that ovary got cut off. And it's a very serious medical emergency. People who have testicles, we often talk about like testicular torsion, but people who have ovaries can also have ovarian torsion. It's very similar in terms of what happens in the body. And so I had an ovarian torsion and it was an extreme medical emergency. I almost died and I had to go in for emergency surgery, and they removed my right ovary. So now all that remains is "Han Solo-vary." I'll pause for the uproarious laughter that I'm sure is coming from your audience.So I had an ovarian torsion, and things started to happen in my brain that were just very confusing. I'm an actor and a performer, and so at the time I was working at a Shakespeare company and we were doing three shows in rep and I'm — hair flip — very good at my job. So I had some like big deal parts in the, in the company, you know. So it's kind of a big deal. I'm pretty fancy.And so I would sit down to try and memorize my lines and I just — I couldn't do it. And I love Shakespeare. Shakespeare is my, like, hyper fixation. I've been like obsessed with Shakespeare for years and years. Just like one of the things that I love most, I'm most passionate about in the whole world. And I couldn't memorize my dang lines.And then like slowly, like other stuff started to happen as well. Like, I noticed that I would just forget more things. I would lose my phone, I would lose my keys. My house was a mess. Like I had to hire professional organizers to come in and dig me out of the hole that I had to put myself in. And it was really scary. It was really scary. And at the time I thought very honestly that I had early onset dementia.And it kind of came to a head one night. It was like two weeks before the show. But our first show was supposed to open and I didn't have my lines. I didn't. I just didn't have my lines. And I was like, my personal and my professional reputation are on the line. Like, I've never been the actor who is like a week out from performance and doesn't know their lines. And that's so unprofessional and it's so embarrassing. And so I was like having my husband quiz me on my lines. And he — I remember very specifically, he looked at me and he was like, "Are you OK? You are never this bad. You are never this bad on your lines." Because, like, I couldn't retain information when I did find like the focus to like sit down and learn my lines, I would just immediately get distracted. I wasn't holding information and I was like, "No, I'm not, I'm not OK."Now, thankfully, this is where the story takes a happy turn, because I have a friend who has pretty profound ADHD. And he looked at me and he was like, "You have ADHD." And I was like, "No, I don't. What are you talking about? ADHD is like a kid thing," you know? And he was like, "No, you have ADHD." And I was like, "OK, well, I at least need to get some help." And so the part of the story that I don't get to tell very often is that that friend actually made the phone call for me to go to the psychologist and get an evaluation, because I was just so not functioning at the time and I will always be forever grateful for that. Like, he was the person who made that call for me.And so I got an appointment. And then once again, extreme stroke of luck is I found my way to a psychologist who is also a former burnt-out, gifted kid who has ADHD, who has anxiety, who has depression. And so I walked into her office and she was like, "Oh, yeah, yep. I recognize myself in you. I understand this experience. I know what it's like to be really good at school and have that like female experience of ADHD." And so the evaluation process was extremely simple. That was like the easy part of the whole thing.And then I always say it was the day before my 30th birthday when I went into that appointment, which was like a trip because it was like, "Welcome to your 30s. Here's an entirely new way of understanding yourself and understanding how you navigate through the world." And so I started doing research. I started doing research on ADHD. I started doing research on especially like just the different ways that ADHD can affect us. And one of the things that I was shocked to learn is that your hormones affect ADHD, especially in people who get periods. And so I was like, Oh my gosh. And so I start connecting the dots. And then I just got mad because I'd flown under the radar for so long. Nobody had ever talked to me about this facet of ADHD. And now I'm here. That was so long. I'm so sorry.Laura: It was great. We're done now with the questions — no I'm just kidding.Catie: Yeah, good talk, everybody, thanks for being here. Good.Laura: Well, that's a lot to unpack right there. So you're talking about hormone changes. You had a very extreme example of a hormonal shift.Catie: Yeah. So when I had my ovary removed, it was really interesting because basically it all happened in less than a day. Like, I went from being like, "Oh, it's just cramps" to like literally almost dying. So they removed my ovary and then basically, like, the doctor was like, "Yeah, you know, you might have some, like, hormone troubles, but, you know, girl stuff. Am I right?" You know what I mean? Where I was just like, cool, thanks for that, you know, useful information.But then it was like as I started learning more about like ADHD and how it's like related to your hormones, it's honestly fascinating. Yeah, there's this really cool study that was done and it was a very small study. So this research is still in its infancy. But basically in people who get periods, ADHD tends to be worse the week or so before your period. And that is because the levels of dopamine and serotonin in your body are also very low, along with the levels of estrogen in your body. And estrogen is one of the things that helps promote dopamine and serotonin. So it's like your attention is regulated by those chemicals, your emotional processing is regulated by it.So it's like no wonder that people with ADHD tend to have more like issues with like PMDD and that kind of stuff. But it's up to the point where there is that, like I was talking about, there was a study done recently where they had people who get periods come in and take an ADHD evaluation. Now all of them had ADHD. Like they it was known. They had already all been diagnosed. But depending on where they were in their monthly cycle, their ADHD changed so much that some of them would not get diagnosed depending on where they were.So when they came in, like the week before their period, their ADHD was pronounced enough that they would like, you know, quote unquote, fail the test and be like, OK, you have ADHD. But during the other couple weeks of the month, they were totally fine. And so there's like this really interesting conversation that's starting to happen about now that we're really understanding like ADHD's connection to hormones, are we missing a lot of people based purely on how much, you know, quote unquote, they're struggling depending on where they are in the month. And similarly, one thing that I hear a lot as well is from people who say like, "Yeah, my ADHD meds were great until the week before my period." And it's well, that's because your hormones are affecting everything in your body. It's so interesting.Laura: It is so interesting. And I just want to be really clear...Catie: People yelling about hormones.Laura: Yeah, let's get really loud all of a sudden. I want to make it clear for folks who are listening: So you had an ovary removed. Han Solo-vary is left. Right? I've got that, right? And so that led to some extreme hormonal shifts than normally, like for like a period, right? But like it's not that having an ovary removed is the reason that you have ADHD. It's — the hormonal shift is what made you more aware of your symptoms, right?Catie: That's, yeah. No, you're exactly right. Like, basically what happened was my ADHD had already been kind of latent. I had grown up building systems and structures that supported the amount to which I was struggling. But then like overnight, my hormones completely shifted and so that like really exacerbated my ADHD symptoms to the point where it was like, OK, this is a problem.But that actually beautifully leads in to the next point that I was going to make, which is we see this happen a lot in women as they go into menopause, where a lot of older women start getting diagnosed with ADHD in their 40s and their 50s as menopause starts like approaching. And it's for the exact same reason. It's that your hormones are lessening. You're having less of that estrogen in your body just as like a baseline. And because of that, then they're starting to realize, hey, wait a minute, there's some stuff going on here that I'm now struggling with. And so, yeah, it's been really interesting. Like in the past decade or so, there's been this like massive uptick in women in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who are getting ADHD diagnoses. And it's exactly because of that. It's because your hormones are so like profoundly linked to a lot of ADHD stuff that that just winds up happening.Laura: So you're talking about being afraid that you have early onset dementia. You're not the first person who's actually raised this with me this week. We work with a lot of experts at our organization, at Understood.org. And speaking with one of them today and talking about, you know, when does someone who is in a workplace start to realize that they may be struggling with a learning or thinking difference or struggling with ADHD at work? They're like, it's the forgetfulness. It's often the forgetfulness. And they think that they actually are struggling with dementia. And a lot of people, that's their entry point. That's their "aha" moment. And then they go see a doctor. So, OK, now I digress. But tell me more about like that conflation or overlap.Catie: I mean, I think it's just really interesting because I think what it — in my experience at least, what it came down to for me was honestly again, just like an absolute undereducation on ADHD. I didn't understand what ADHD could look like or might look like. And so the only sort of like direct thing that I knew that could be a thing that affected forgetfulness was like, oh, it must clearly be dementia. Now, obviously I was very wrong. But I think that that's a really common thing because we see that narrative. We see the stories on TV of like the Lifetime movies or whatever. Like we see that experience, that commonality represented. And so I think it honestly, like it makes a lot of sense to me that people would make that leap from like, well, I've never been forgetful, or I've never struggled with this thing, to now I am. So it must be this specific thing.And again, I think a lot of that just has to do with undereducation and honestly, like not having the information to recognize just the latent symptoms of ADHD that are with you earlier in life. Like I certainly didn't, you know. I certainly didn't think about things like how I would get involved in like every single activity there was and like really struggled to finish projects until the last minute or struggled to like start my homework until like, "No, it's really due" the night before. All of these again like really tiny red flags that now that I know, like, oh, it's been ADHD all along. I was like, OK, that makes so much sense. But when you don't know, when you're not educated, you don't have that background to go "Oh." So it's just clearly it's dementia.Laura: I was listening to one of your more recent podcast episodes, but I wrote down something that you said that really — it gave me chills. I'm going to misquote you probably, but: "The forgetfulness that you experience in everyday life, it can make you feel small and afraid and powerless to how your brain works." And then I love because you flipped too: "And it's a superpower" and laughed because... No, but that really struck a nerve with me and I don't think that people realize just how tricky ADHD symptoms can be.Catie: Yeah, I mean, I think the thing, especially as I got more into my work and into my research and the more that I learned, I think the thing that I was most frustrated about, and I think also — both frustrated and fascinated I think is a good way to say it — because I just didn't realize how much ADHD affects the every moment of every day. It's not just a school thing, it's not just a work thing. It's not just preferring to send the text message or struggling to keep your room clean. It is a overarching, all-encompassing, neurodevelopmental disorder that affects every moment of every day. And when you start contextualizing it in that way, I think it's a lot easier to approach because the conversation is still so much about school. It's just still so much about the office. It's not about how it affects our entire life from the moment we wake up to the moment we have trouble going to sleep.Laura: On the forgetfulness front, now that you have this awareness of your diagnosis, can you give more examples of recontextualizing these ADHD symptoms that at the time you didn't know were ADHD?Catie: Oh God. Just my entire childhood. I joke about it on TikTok, but it's true. I have like profound desk dumping trauma because I was the kid in class whose grown-ass adult teacher would dump their desk and make me crawl around on the ground to find my crayons because my desk was too dirty. Like that kind of stuff.Laura: Overly punitive.Catie: Yeah, it really was. I don't get mad about a lot of stuff having to do with ADHD, but I do get mad about the adults who are like, "I'm going to punish you for this thing." Like, "You're messy, so I'm going to dump your desk," but then provide you no supports and not teach you how to organize and not give you any skills or structures that you can build upon. They're just like "You're bad and messy."Laura: Right.Catie: Another big one is that I was bulimic from the time I was 15 until I got into therapy when I was in my 30s for it. So about half of my life I've spent with an eating disorder and there's a profound link between eating disorders and ADHD. And that's really the one that I think I look back on and I go, "If only." You know, if only somebody had told me, if only that information had been available, which is again, a big part of why I do what I do now, because I want to be the person talking about it.Laura: Can you talk a little bit about that link between eating disorders and ADHD?Catie: Yeah. So there is a big link between people who struggle with eating disorders and ADHD. In particular, people with ADHD struggle with binge eating. Some people struggle with food restriction, but for a lot of people, it's binge eating. And then in like my case, that can then lead to bulimia. And there's fascinating research being done on it. But primarily what it is, is the binge eating part of it is absolutely grounded in executive dysfunction. You're dopamine seeking, you know, the food tastes good. But then you combine things like time blindness where, you know, you start eating the ice cream and then you look down and the ice cream is just gone. And then there's also just emotional processing and how we process emotion. Well, the food makes me feel good, so I'm going to keep eating it because I'm having trouble regulating my emotions.And so it's like when you sort of like lay it out point by point, you're like, oh my God, of course it makes sense that people with ADHD struggle with binge eating. Like that makes so much absolute sense. And then even more like a lot of medications for ADHD will suppress the appetite. And then you're like, "Oh my gosh, I haven't eaten all day, so I'm going to eat this entire pizza." And that can really lead to disordered eating.Laura: Which ADHD symptom would you say still impacts you the most or still is like the old chestnut that you just can't seem to crack.Catie: The old chestnut. It's weird how often I get this question, and it's weird how I still have not decided on my answer, honestly. I think for me, and this is going to be weird, but I will explain, is time perception. I think for me that is — that's a huge thing because for me, I'm pretty good at task initiation and I'm terrible at finishing projects. But for me, time perception is a big one because I also feel like it's one where like it's like, oh is like wacky. It's like whimsical. People with ADHD are always five minutes late. It's so cute and wacky. But it's like, no, it's been six months since I called my mom because I didn't realize it's been that long. You know, it's been three weeks since I sent that email back about the brand deal that I was going to get or whatever. That kind of thing, where I feel like time perception and struggles therein can be so damaging to not only just like basic life stuff, like upkeep. It's like I consistently forget to take the garbage out because I forget that it's Tuesday. It's the oh, it's been literally a year since I dusted my house. Like that kind of thing where time is so nebulous for me that I just constantly feel like I'm sort of standing in like this, like hurricane of things happening around me. And I'll reach out and grab something. But by the time I get ahold of that, 20 other things have blown past me. And it's very defeating. It's very frustrating. And it's very — it's, I mean, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing as like a grown adult to be like, I forget to call my mom or, you know, I forget that I have friends, like that kind of stuff.But it's because the difference of two weeks and two days to me absolutely depends on what I'm doing. Sometimes two days feels like an eternity, and sometimes two months will go by before I even realize that they have. And that's scary. It's scary to constantly be worrying about, well, what did I double-book myself or what did I forget? Or what am I going to be late for? Or whose wedding am I going to not show up for because I didn't realize it was this week and not next month? That's the one that I think gets me the most because it affects everything that I do.Laura: That's what I wanted to know, though, because I don't want to ever paint a picture that it's like, OK, you got diagnosed with ADHD and now you don't struggle with symptoms anymore.Catie: Yeah, I'm fixed.Laura: Yeah, yeah. Diagnosis can lead to treatment can lead to all these things that can help, but it's not — that's not a curable disorder. How did getting a diagnosis, having a name for what you were struggling with, how was that helpful?Catie: At first it wasn't, I think is my real answer. At first I kind of went, OK, great. But it doesn't solve any of my issues, you know what I mean? And for a really long time, like, I really lived in that place of like, great. It doesn't solve the fact that I can't remember my lines. It doesn't solve the fact that every month my house goes to heck before my period starts, you know, like that kind of stuff. The more that I started researching and the longer I started working in this way that I'm now working, the more I started realizing that it was less about having a name and it was more about having a fundamental understanding that so many of the things that I have struggled with, so many of the things that I always thought I was just wrong or bad or broken or fundamentally flawed, it had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with how hard I tried. It had nothing to do with, like, how motivated I was. It wasn't that I wasn't just trying hard enough. It wasn't that I just needed a plan or I just needed to keep my room clean. It's that I have a disorder that makes those things extremely difficult and extremely challenging. And realizing that all of these places where I felt like a screw-up and a failure and I've carried shame and guilt and embarrassment were not my fault. And beginning to sort of like reframe my understanding of my struggles and the things that I find difficult with that understanding, that was incredibly, incredibly powerful. Especially when it came to things like, oh, I am predisposed to an eating disorder. Like I am predisposed to emotional dysregulation. I am predisposed to like all of these things that I've always really felt like, well, why can't I just be like everybody else? And it's like, well, because my brain is not like everybody else's.And so having that opportunity, I think, really brought me forward in terms of self-acceptance and patience with myself and grace with myself and kindness with myself and understanding with myself. And that has been really important. I think that's been the big takeaway for this.Laura: I'm just pausing to bask in that for a second. That was really lovely what you just said. I really relate to what you've been talking about in terms of being burnt out. Just working myself so, so hard and making very unhealthy decisions for my body and for my brain. And I agree with you. Like talking with you about also even the hormonal changes that happen before you get your period, like these little nuggets that you learn along the way, I'm like, oh my God, this makes so much more sense now too. Because I can't be kind to myself during that week before my period starts. Wondering if I should up my medication dosage for them.Catie: Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, is like that, that understanding of like, oh, OK, well, now — and then it's like, OK, well, now I know, you know, like, and then it's like that next.... If you know that you're going to struggle more the week before your period, then OK, let's start building a system and structures in which you can treat yourself more gently. You know, like for me, I'm incredibly chore-averse that week. And so it's like, OK, let's put a little money in the budget so I can order takeout so I don't have to worry about dishes. You know, just like small, little, gentle things that you can do to support yourself. Like, it doesn't have to be an overhaul. It doesn't have to be this, like, massive, life-changing thing. It can just be like, no, I'm going to get, you know, takeout twice this week instead of once because, you know, it's easier for me to, like, not have to worry about the dishes. Like, just, you know, stuff like that.Laura: I love that. I want to start doing that. I'm going to add a little reminder to my calendar.Catie: Get a lot of ramen the week before your period.Laura: Oh, nice.Catie: I love ramen so much.Laura: For me it would be Indian food for sure. Catie, it has been so nice to talk with you, and I would love to have you back on the show at some point. If I ever need a sub, if I'm out, can you come in?Catie: Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, of course.Laura: You just can't upstage me. You're so good at this, but yeah. OK. Thanks so much for being here. This really means a lot to me.Catie: Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@Understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission."ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi, everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.
A unique IEP solution for our twice-exceptional son
Because of our older son’s high test scores and big vocabulary, his teachers have often suggested that he be placed in gifted and talented (GT) classes. But since he also has issues with executive functioning, social skills, and learning, it’s not that simple.Back when he was 8, my son got his first IEP. The school recommended that he be placed in a self-contained class to help with his meltdowns and difficult behavior. Although my wife and I initially resisted, the class turned out to be just what he needed. He was able to learn in a safe space and soon got better at managing his emotions and coping with stress.As he got older and developed more social skills, he gradually moved out of the self-contained class and into a mainstream grade school classroom. But then a new problem surfaced.Our son is a very intelligent and logical thinker. By fifth grade, he was trying to connect what he was reading in class to larger social issues, like criminal justice. But his teacher and peers just weren’t ready for that.While our son is smart, he also tends to see things in black and white. He can get frustrated with other kids for not “getting things” as quickly as he does. Combined with his trouble with social skills, this led to a lot of friction.We started talking to him about the possibility of taking GT classes. We told him GT would let him work with peers closer to his academic level.Our son, however, felt anxious about trying GT. His biggest concern was the increased workload of being in an accelerated class. Rightly or wrongly, he felt like a lot of school was just busy work, and that he’d rather stay in a regular classroom and not deal with the pressure.My wife and I would always rather our son be happy and OK than accelerated. So we accepted his decision. Our son continued to get the supports and services in his IEP and did well in middle school. But the issue didn’t go away.In his ninth-grade English class, he was again feeling a lack of challenge. The material in the class had a lot of gray area, which doesn’t match our son’s strengths. And what was taught often felt too basic for him. He was feeling frustrated and alone.We called an IEP team meeting and asked for help. How could the school accommodate our son’s learning differences and out-of-the box thinking, while also making sure he was challenged academically? And could all of this be somehow worked into his IEP?Most of our son’s IEP goals have been focused on behavior and his need for concrete instruction. To include a program for his giftedness in his IEP, there had to be an academic impact on him. In other words, we had to show that his high intellect was preventing him from learning in the regular education classroom!Thankfully, his high school was on board. Together, the IEP team created a hybrid program for English that combined classroom time and independent study to meet our son’s needs. This was something the school had never tried before.Here’s how it works. With the help of the GT teacher, his English teacher provides him with more challenging assignments than he would normally get. For instance, rather than short worksheets and quizzes on Romeo and Juliet, he’s writing a longer essay to explore the play in depth. The due dates are spread out to give him time to focus on bigger projects like this.On most days, he works independently in the library or study hall. But once a week or so, he joins the English class to participate in class discussions and to practice the skills he’s working on. He still attends regular classes for all other subjects. Thankfully, he doesn’t feel any stigma about the program, and it’s working out well so far.As we’ve managed to work out a solution for our older son, we also have one eye on our younger son who is in grade school. He has ADHD, and is also intellectually gifted like his brother.Our younger son does just fine in the regular education classroom with supports. Right now, we don’t have goals around our younger son’s giftedness written into his IEP. His teacher simply does her best to challenge him a little more in the classroom.I’m hoping, however, that we find a solution that’s unique for him, just like we did for his older brother. For twice-exceptional (or 2e) people, sometimes giftedness can be just as tricky to work with as their other issues.Read myths about 2e kids. Learn more about gifted children’s challenges with learning and thinking differences. And fine out how a documentary about 2e kids made one mom a more hopeful parent.
The Opportunity GapHow to teach Black history to kids with learning differences and ADHD
The podcast welcomes Kimberly Eckert, 2018 Louisiana teacher of the year, for a conversation about race, parenting, and Black history.It’s critical teach Black history kids learning differences ADHD, well students get special education. what’s best way teach it? families engage kids Black history — well current events Black community? This episode features Kimberly Eckert, 2018 Louisiana Teacher Year, conversation race, parenting, Black history. Kimberly shares personal experience growing biracial Black woman bayou South, talks race daughter today. describes “80/20 time,” method get kids engaged learning. Co-hosts Julian Saavedra Marissa Wallace also share picks books activities kids — especially Black boys — learn Black history.Resources teaching Black history kids“Young, Gifted, Black: Meet 52 Black Heroes Past Present,” Jamia Wilson (Julian’s pick) “I Am... (Positive Affirmations Brown Boys),” Aeysha Rodriguez (Marissa’s pick)“Teaching Child Black History,” PBS (Marissa’s pick)“Black American History,” Crash Course YouTube (Producer’s pick)Harriett's Bookshop (Julian’s pick)Uncle Bobbie's Bookshop (Julian’s pick) Episode transcriptJulian: Welcome "The Opportunity Gap," podcast families kids color learn think differently. explore issues privilege, race, identity. goal help advocate child. I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian worked together years teachers public charter school Philadelphia, saw opportunity gaps firsthand.Julian: we're parents kids color. personal us.Hello, everybody. Welcome back. excited we're today. Hey Marissa, doing? Marissa: I'm good, Julian. excited well. special guest, I'm always excited guests.Julian: Oh, yes, yes, yes. So, Happy Black History. mean, Black history American history. celebrate uplift month, it's really important crucial remember part Black history today. really tough conversations race racism within community. continue take action fight oppression.And remember actions take today affect future, future children obviously future society world. today really special episode, Black history teach Black history kids struggle school learning thinking differences, even ADHD.We excited — word hyped. word extremely hyped introduce guest, Kimberly Eckert. Kimberly dean undergraduate studies Reach University innovative programs coordinator West Baton Rouge Schools. holds bachelor's degree social work, MEd special education, won many awards 2018 Louisiana Teacher Year. she's also author, reading interventionist, reading specialist, master teacher, much more. she's also high school teacher speak. please, thank much. let's bring grace us presence. Thank joining us.Marissa: Kimberly, share little bit tell us little bit experience growing rural Louisiana?Kimberly: Oh my. many ways, I'm still growing Louisiana. hometown — I'm bayou. It's called Marksville. Population's 5,000 people. Whenever say grew bayou, mean, real, like there's pirogues know fish. there's zombie apocalypse, make sure fed like freshest catch day.Growing Black woman, like bayou '80s, don't get opt conversations race. there's never time conversations race, racism, things completely, um, surrounding me. it's really interesting. became social worker knew wanted to, know, make change make impact.And became point felt like wasn't changing world fast enough. Like every time students leave leave school in, felt much work done. Teachers get 180 days year. I'm lucky get hour week. Like want go room happens. became alt cert teacher rest history.Marissa: remember, like become connected knowing wanting education, continue important part life?Kimberly: Education life. always go back quote. It's Mark Twain. said, "I've never let school interfere education."And think much sort growing power, myself, mean, many people really leave town. there's anything wrong staying. parents didn't graduate high school. graduating high school pretty big deal space.And number one, like education being, um, sort equalizer creating opportunities. I'm living life literally read books now, that's amazing thing. also realize power education ability combat ignorance. feel like ignorance, don't mean derogatory way, ignorance lack knowledge, ignorance leads lack empathy.And don't think people bother solve problems don't care about. don't care problems don't know about. think education way help sort illuminate problems solutions ways make better.Julian: mentioned earlier idea growing Black able escape idea racism conversations around race. know, know myself, early exposure Black history, school, home grandmother. know, Nana made sure knew story. made sure knew key figures. wanted ask perspective, start getting exposed history? mean you?Kimberly: I'm biracial. I'm biracial Black. mom's white, dad's Black. think me, baptism life, literally, mother's family, slave owners. dad's family slaves. it's interesting that's common knowledge. So lot early history tainted by, like, glory excellence. really tainted affected cruelty by, like, kind denial humanity white family life. wasn't later started really understand that's one piece. history even within family beautiful. think that's important legacy make sure expose students well, live South. much legacy African Americans Black people rooted entrenched slavery civil rights. we're still underneath dark shadow Jim Crow heavily history weighs present.Julian: go bringing classroom? go bringing students?Kimberly: me — like day one, matter class walk into, whether it's, know, first hour, it's seventh hour, matter school demographic looks like, making life authentic students front center. sometimes school least realistic place kids go. think helping students, number one, understand huge world huge history, point actually made whenever opened, we're part it.And becomes matter matters you. care about, interested in? let's find, let's find that's done before. Let's find ways that's done somebody looks like you — someone looks different you. we're sort tokenizing othering people contributions history story truth, bringing much larger perspective much larger, universal truth.Marissa: individuals blessed fortunate someone like corner, feel outside four walls, we're talking families parents, responsibility important also talk race racism their, children home?Kimberly: I'm teacher. I'm also citizen, right? Like taxpaying American citizen. I'm also mother, I'm friend, I'm ally, I'm activist. I'm many different things, right? child, biracial, presents white, OK? I'm obviously lot darker child. within community — child's 6 years old. cannot tell conversations dinner table when, example, there's this, there's boy class that's ridiculing telling she's adopted 'cause mom's Black. there's girl class told Black people white people shouldn't together can't boyfriend, girlfriend. know started even sooner that, like daycare.But problem whenever complacent, whenever speak all, become complicit, conversations happening. we're nothing counter it, we're nothing counter it. Marissa: th
Why the school with the highest test scores wasn’t the right fit for my child with ADHD
I’m the mother of a twice-exceptional son who just started sixth grade. Tay is gifted. He also has ADHD, anxiety, high-functioning autism, and epilepsy. Despite these challenges, he finished elementary school above grade level in math, and almost above grade level in English language arts.I was so proud as I sat through Tay’s fifth-grade graduation ceremony. But I wasn’t prepared for what would come afterward. Graduation was filled with cheers, tears, and, much to my surprise, a message to me from his teacher: “Tay holds a special place in my heart...I know he walked toward a bright, exciting future.”There were high-fives and chest bumps celebrating the end of homework and dioramas for the summer all around me. But I just strolled the schoolyard in a haze, taking in what Tay’s teacher had said.Other mothers approached me and volunteered to take Tay on summer outings with their kids. I watched Tay collect phone numbers from fellow classmates to keep in touch. I stared in amazement while he seamlessly allowed school staff to hug him (despite his intense aversion to physical touch).That whole morning felt surreal, because life wasn’t always that harmonious for Tay.Before he entered elementary school, I did extensive research to find the areas in our district with the highest test scores. I began my search with GreatSchools, which provides key information on schools to help parents assess the best fit for their children.I also referred to the Academic Performance Index scores (this is the formal measurement of academic performance and progress of individual schools in California). We sold our home and found a rental within our budget near a high-performing school — the motherlode.But within weeks at this academic oasis, Tay was having daily meltdowns and seemed to be declining academically. I decided to hire a tutor and do classroom observations. Though Tay had a 504 plan, it appeared that it wasn’t being followed. The teacher wasn’t seating him in the front of the class, breaking down tasks into small chunks, and giving him regular breaks.My frustrations with this situation led to more research, and that research led me to what I hoped was the answer: an IEP.While learning about what an IEP could do for Tay, I enrolled him in social skills classes, placed him in therapy, and signed up for support groups and parenting workshops. At the same time, I applied for charter schools and then to magnet schools in our district.Instead of relying on test scores, I toured campuses, spoke to parents, and sat with school staff. I even spoke to students. I relied on my gut. But before I moved my gifted child, I asked that he be evaluated by the school so that he could qualify for an IEP. I was denied. And that crushed me.My husband and I decided to enlist help. We found our own superhero in the form of a special education attorney. Just weeks after we sent off a request from her, Tay was granted an IEP and got accepted into a magnet school that played to his strengths.Tay spent five years of his elementary school career receiving the services he needed to get on track and stay there. He surpassed everyone’s expectations both academically and socially. And while there are still challenging times, most days actually leave us in total agreement with his fifth-grade teacher: He’s heading toward an “exciting future.”If you’re thinking about switching schools, learn what the options are for different types of schools. And find out what happens to your child’s IEP if you switch schools.
In ItBusting myths about learning differences and ADHD
There are plenty of myths and misconceptions about learning differences. Let’s get the facts to debunk them. There are plenty of myths and misconceptions about learning differences. Is ADHD just about hyperactivity? Is dyslexia a vision problem? And do kids outgrow learning differences? In this episode, host Gretchen Vierstra shares common myths about learning and thinking differences for co-host Amanda Morin to bust. Listen to Amanda debunk these myths with the facts. Learn why these myths persist and how you can help fight against them. Plus, hear the misconceptions that Amanda, Gretchen, and their producer believed before they learned the truth about learning differences.Related resources6 common myths about learning and thinking differencesWhat are learning and thinking differences?When gifted kids need accommodations, tooEpisode transcriptAmanda: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It." On this podcast, we offer perspectives, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences. We talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood. And I'm a parent to kids who learn differently.Gretchen: And I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And today, we want to do some myth busting. There's lots of misconceptions out there about learning and thinking differences.Amanda: And it's totally understandable that there are misconceptions, because a lot of what we've learned over the years about these differences is complicated. It's counterintuitive, and we are still learning, too.Gretchen: Exactly. I don't know about you, Amanda, but I can still remember some of the ideas I had way back when, when I started teaching at a mere 23 years old, that I now know were totally not true.Amanda: Me, too, Gretchen. I think I started teaching when I was 21, and I don't know about you. Do you have, like, examples that stick in your mind of your misconceptions?Gretchen: Yes, totally. You know, as a general education teacher, one of the things I thought I knew about ADHD was that I would be looking for kids and probably mostly boys who were hyperactive. I wasn't thinking about the fact that it could be a student who was quietly not able to focus, right? Couldn't finish the book, perhaps couldn't get through a whole test. I really wasn't thinking about that. I only thought about hyperactivity.Amanda: I think me too. And I wonder how much of that is about when we started teaching and how much of that is about just sort of that expectation that, you know, you see it, you see ADHD in that — that it's like the boys who are running around and bouncing off the walls and jumping off the top of the playground and all of those kinds of things. But we now know that's not true. ADHD, the "H" is hyperactive, but there's also attention deficit in that, right? So that inattention matters as well. There are kids in classrooms, there are kids all over who maybe don't show those hyperactive or impulsivity kinds of things. That's a common one, right?Gretchen: It is. And also, what about the fact that I, going into teaching, thought it would mostly be boys and that the boys would definitely be the hyper ones? I mean, I will admit that is what I thought. And I know that's not true.Amanda: Yeah. And I think, like, I can take that as an early intervention specialist, we often saw boys first, you know, because boys tend to have hyperactive-type ADHD a little bit more often than girls. And that's the first thing people notice. But the truth of the matter is inattentive-type ADHD, that distraction, that daydreaming, that kind of thing, it's also really common. And it's not just girls who have that. So you see it in girls and boys, but it's not the kind of thing, like in a classroom, it's not the kind of thing that like jumps out at you. Because when you're trying to manage all of these kids, the things that are like literally popping up are the things that you're paying attention to more.Gretchen: That's right. What about you, Amanda? Is there any particular idea you had about learning differences that tripped you up as a teacher or maybe as a parent?Amanda: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So as our listeners know, I have kids who have learning differences, too. When I first started this with my own kids, you'd think because I had experience in the classroom that I'd notice it and I'd not have these myths. But I remember thinking with one of my children. I remember thinking like, "Why doesn't he just try harder? He can do all of these amazing things." And it's like what teachers would say to me: "He's just not trying hard enough."I didn't do a real good job at first of pushing back on that and saying, you know, this stuff he needs to learn and has trouble with. I think I may have accepted it more than I should have. And I — that's a whole other thing. But as a teacher — gosh, you know, you have that one kid you remember, you know? I remember from maybe my fifth year of teaching, right? So more years ago than I'm willing to say. But I will say that this child is now probably has her own family, let's just say, right? Had a really hard time learning how to read and do letter sounds and stuff like that, but was also kind of like balky about it. Wouldn't do it and was sort of tuned out a lot of the time. And and I kind of chalked it up to she was being stubborn. And as I look back at it, I realize like she was telling me with her behavior that she was having trouble. And I think that now I would definitely have a conversation with that child's parents and say, "I think we're seeing some signs of reading issues. I think we're seeing some signs of inattentive, maybe ADHD, maybe...." You know, I wish I'd had that conversation and like, I still think about that. And I wonder, you know, how is she doing? What did her rest of her school career look like?Gretchen: I know. It's hard not to focus and blame ourselves for things that we may have missed. The word "blame," though, right? Also reminds me of something else that I think comes up, which is hearing people blame parents for their kids' behaviors. Actually, not just behaviors, but the learning differences themselves. I've heard things like, "Hmm, maybe you just didn't read enough to your child," for a student who has dyslexia. Or "Hmm, are you setting boundaries? Maybe that's why your child has ADHD." I've even heard things about like, "Maybe you're feeding your kids too much sugar." These are all myths, right? This blame that we're placing? These are all myths, aren't they?Amanda: They totally are. And the sugar one, I don't know how many times I've heard that. You know, "If you change his diet a little bit, you know, he'd be calmer." And I kind of have this like maybe if I change his diet, I'd be calmer, but I don't know if he would be calm, right? But I think you're right. Like, I think a lot of times people are looking for a place to put blame and they don't do it deliberately. I think they do it weirdly. They're trying to be helpful. They're trying to say, like, well, if you just tried this, probably it would get better. But what it comes out to, like parents like me, what it is, is like you're not doing it right. And that's really hard. I am going to do the thing where I put our producer Julie on the spot and ask her to chime in. Because Julie, you've worked with us for a few years now, and I'm wondering, what didn't you understand at first or maybe still don't understand about learning differences?Julie: Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that I didn't understand and that I'm still learning. I'm a little embarrassed to tell you this one, but it is true that a lot of times when people ask me when I'm working on it, I'm telling them about this podcast, I'll say it's, you know, for families who have kids with learning and thinking differences. And then I say, like, you know, ADHD or dyslexia, and then I sort of trail off.Gretchen: You mumble and....Julie: I feel like I know there are others and some of them we have actually done episodes on. But I wonder, can you spell out for me, what do we mean when we say learning and thinking differences? Amanda: I can do that. OK. So at Understood in particular, we have sort of what we call core issues, right? Issues that we specifically focus on. And the word "learning differences" encompasses a lot of things. But when we talk about some of our core issues, they're actually learning disabilities. And so dyslexia is a language-based learning disability. So that's one of them. There's written expression disorder, which is sometimes known as dysgraphia as well, another learning disability. And then dys-cal-cu-luh — or dyscalculia or however people say it — is a third learning disability that we also focus on. And then we also focus on ADHD, which is not a learning disability, but it can get in the way of learning. And that's another myth. A lot of people think ADHD itself is a learning disability. And then the last thing that we focus on as a core issue and Understood is language disorder. So receptive language, the ability to make sense of what other people are saying to you. And expressive language disorder is the ability to take your thoughts and put them out verbally and have other people understand you. There are other differences. Those are just the ones that we particularly focus on. So now you can go answer that question differently or have people listen to this podcast.Julie: Exactly.Gretchen: No more trailing off.All right, so we've just learned a lot and we're ready to learn more. Because there are actually quite a few misconceptions that we've come across. And I'm so happy that Amanda is here to help us sort through some more of them. So, Amanda, are you ready to tackle another one?Amanda: Indeed.Gretchen: So here's one we hear a lot. It's the belief that a child who is diagnosed with a learning disability will grow out of it. Does that actually happen?Amanda: Oh, that's a really common one, right? It doesn't happen. If you have a learning disability, you have a learning disability because your brain is just processing information differently. What may happen is kids, as they grow older, have more strategies. So they've learned how to accommodate for themselves. So it looks like they maybe they've outgrown some of the things you saw when they were younger. But it's not that they're outgrowing a learning disability. I think that does a disservice to all of the adults out there who have learning disabilities. Because at 18, you're not like, oh, no learning disability anymore. It may change what it looks like and how it shows up, but it's not that it doesn't exist anymore.Gretchen: And what about ADHD, though? I've heard different things about this.Amanda: There is a very small percentage of people, and this is not my expertise, so I want to be really cautious in saying. There's a very small percentage of people who do sort of outgrow the symptomology of ADHD, but it's a very small percentage.Gretchen: All right. Well, here's another one. And I think this is something I held on to for a while when I was a kid. When I first heard about dyslexia, I thought dyslexia was either a vision problem or I thought it was just seeing letters backward and that's it. But we know that's not the case, so please explain, Amanda.Amanda: I think we think that because you see it a lot like in TV and stuff like that, when somebody has dyslexia, you see like the words are swimming on the page or in front of them or that kind of a thing. It's not. I think we're just going to say that. It's not just that. It's not a vision problem. You know, people with dyslexia may have vision problems, but I'm sitting here with my glasses on. I also have vision problems and no dyslexia. I think one of the best things I heard is somebody that we work with who has dyslexia. She said to me, "It's not that I can't read, it's that I had trouble learning how to read, right? I had trouble with the sounds and putting the sounds together in the language." So that was really helpful to me to realize what dyslexia is, is more about that language learning and the being able to decode the sounds and being able to get the vocabulary and get all of that put together. And people who have dyslexia may often have difficulty with sort of their spoken language as well, like retrieving language when they're talking. So that's why it's called a language-based learning disability.Gretchen: Got it. All right. Well, here's another point of confusion, I think, that has to do with kids who are what we call twice exceptional, or 2e. Can you explain what 2e means and how does it throw people off?Amanda: I'll do a quick one and then I will also put a plug in for the fact that we did an episode on twice exceptionality that people can go back to and listen more about. 2e or twice exceptional means that you have a child or adult who is intellectually gifted and also has a disability. It doesn't have to be a learning disability, and I think that's important to note, too. But when we talk about it, we're often talking about kids who have learning disabilities and are also intellectually gifted. And what throws people off there is this myth that, like, you know what, you can't be gifted and also have a learning disability. And it's just not true. One of the things that I think people — and I probably held this misconception as a teacher when I first started, too — is that it sort of cancels each other out, right? But you can have a learning disability and also be in like AP classes. And you can have accommodations in all of those gifted classes. And we all have things that are difficult for us and are not difficult for us. So I think it's just a magnitude thing to think about it that way, too.Gretchen: That's a good way to explain it. All right. Here's the one that people have trouble pronouncing: dys-cal-cu-li-a or dys-cal-cu-luh? I know, I think I say dyscalculia. In any case, this is often described as just math dyslexia. But that's not really how we should be describing it, is it?Amanda: No, no. I've heard people say it's also just like significant math anxiety, which it is also not. Again, I'm going to go back to the brain part of this. It's the way your brain is wired and the way it processes information around math. I actually like the word "dyscalculia" because I can remember it sounds like calculator, so it makes me remember that it's math, right?But you know, it impacts sort of the ability to learn numeracy, which is kind of a fancy way of saying like all of those underlying concepts about numbers — you know, counting, one-to-one correspondence, knowing that a numeral matches a group of numbers, knowing patterns and shapes, estimating, proportionality, all of those kinds of things that are math concepts that we actually use in everyday life. So it's not just about being anxious about math. It's about those everyday skills. You know, people may also have trouble with, like, calculating the tip, you know?Gretchen: Yeah. I never thought how helpful those tip calculators on the end of a receipt. I always thought they were just trying to push me to give more money. But really, maybe it's an accommodation. I should think about it that way.So speaking of accommodations and things like calculators, a lot of people have confusion around this. They see some of the tools that some people might use as accommodations as cheating. So, for example, I'm thinking of assistive technology, things like dictation apps, or audiobooks, or even the calculator. Are those things cheating? Are we stopping people from learning or doing things in the way that they should? I'm using air quotes right now. Or are those things just accommodations? What's the what's the deal here, Amanda?Amanda: It's not cheating. Like, I'm just going to say that flat out. It's not cheating. I've heard that, you know, with kids with a written expression disorder, people say, like, my kid refuses to write, and I think they just want to use the computer. Or, you know, this kid will only read comic books and that's not really reading. And like, those things just aren't actually true, right? These adaptations, these accommodations are actually helping us learn. And what's really interesting is that everybody uses accommodations in their daily life, right? The example I often talk about is way back when, when you used to go to crowded restaurants or whatever, right? And there was a lot of noise going on, and if there was a game on the TV or whatever, oftentimes you have the closed captions on because you can't hear over the crowds, right? My Mr. 12 — we talk about Mr. 12 sometimes, right? He uses closed captions all the time on the TV, not because he needs the closed captions, but because it helps him process the language. He uses the closed captions as an accommodation. But you know what? It helps everybody. Those kinds of things help everybody.Gretchen: Yeah, exactly. And as a former English teacher who filled my classroom with books, I would like to just point out that graphic novels, comics, magazines, all those things counted as reading is my classroom.Amanda: Reading is reading.Gretchen: Reading is reading. Exactly.Amanda: Well, and I would add to that audiobooks, right?Gretchen: Yes. Audiobooks, too. Exactly. Yep. All right. I think one last thing here. A pet peeve, Amanda, that we were talking about just the other day. We were saying how we are not fans of hearing things like, "Oh, I'm so ADHD today," or "You'll have to excuse me, I'm a little OCD." Explain. Why don't we like that so much?Amanda: Gretchen is watching my face do a whole thing right now. I actually have OCD, so that one is very personal to me. It's just like I get frustrated when people use it as a shorthand for explaining what they're having trouble with, right? I have OCD, and I will always have OCD. And so I don't get to put it to the side. "I'm OCD today and I'm not OCD tomorrow and I'm not," you know, like — and so when people use those phrases like, "Oh, I just, you know, I'm so ADHD today" or, you know, "I'm a little OCD," it feels like it sort of diminishes the experience that people have on a daily basis. You know, you don't get to put it away. You don't get to have days when you're not ADHD. It doesn't acknowledge that there are people that this is their whole experience all the time.Gretchen: Yeah, exactly. All right. I think we've covered a lot. Is there anything else, Amanda, that you think we should address?Amanda: I think maybe just that these are just a few of the myths that are right there, right? There are tons of myths and misconceptions which are — that's very hard to say. So the more we bust them, the less we have to say "myths and misconceptions." So just, you know, take a moment to think through. And if you don't know, ask. And if you don't have someone to ask....Gretchen: Write in or ask us.Amanda: Right? I know!Gretchen: Write in or ask us, or go to Understood.org, where we have a ton of articles on many of these myths. We've got articles that are called like "7 Myths About ADHD," for example. I don't know if it's seven, but you know what I mean. We've got lists. And so if you go to a Understood.org, you can find some of these lists and they can explain things. And, you know, if you have someone in your family who maybe is questioning some of the things that perhaps like your child is is learning, they have a diagnosis and a family member saying "that's not true" or "that's not real," send them these facts. We've got fact sheets and we've got myth-busting sheets. And you can send those along to people to help, you know, better educate them and give them the tools so that they can talk about it.Amanda: Send the tools. And I think that what that does is take some pressure off you for having to be the one who feels like you're always educating other people. And we will put links to — I wouldn't — probably not all of them, because we have so many of them. But we'll put links to a lot of them along with other resources in our show notes for this episode, so that you out there can start educating other people and be a myth buster on your own.Gretchen: That's right.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Amanda: And if you liked today's episode, please share it with the folks around you — other parents, your child's teacher, or other people who may want to know more about learning differences and debunk some myths of their own.Gretchen: Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Andrew Lee is our editorial lead. Justin D. Wright mixes the show, and Mike Errico wrote our theme music. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Gretchen: Thanks for listening and for always being in it with us.
7 myths about twice-exceptional (2e) students
Some students with learning and thinking differences have outstanding skills in certain academic areas. These kids are often called twice-exceptional (or 2e) learners. They’re exceptional in two ways. They’re gifted, and they have learning differences.They also face unique challenges. These include myths and misconceptions about being 2e. If you have a 2e child, you may hear all kinds of things that fill you with concern. Here’s the reality behind seven common misconceptions.Myth #1: Being gifted makes up for having a learning or thinking difference.Twice-exceptional students can be confusing to teachers (and to parents). It can be hard to recognize or understand the signs. Sometimes giftedness may mask learning and thinking differences. Other times the extreme strengths and weaknesses “cancel each other out.” In either case, 2e students can look as if they have average abilities.But when you look more closely at where they shine and where they struggle, it becomes clear that they really are 2e. No matter how well they can use their strengths, they still have learning and thinking differences for which they need support.Myth #2: Students can’t be gifted and lack basic skills, so they’re just not trying hard enough.It can be hard to realize that a child who understands some things on such a profound level can have trouble with basic skills. But 2e students often have uneven skills. They may do really well in one area, like math, but have trouble with processing speed, social skills, or following directions. Without explicit instruction in those areas, it doesn’t matter how hard 2e kids try — they’re still going to have trouble.Myth #3: 2e students aren’t eligible for IEPs or 504 plans.When students are mostly doing well, the school can sometimes be hesitant to evaluate them for special education services. But academics aren’t the only thing to consider. There are other challenges that can point to learning and thinking differences, too. These can include things like trouble making friends or managing emotions.The U.S. Department of Education has made it clear that 2e students and behavior supports are covered by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Schools must evaluate a child if a disability is suspected. Students who are found eligible should have an IEP or a 504 plan.Myth #4: Giftedness and challenges can’t be addressed at the same time.For 2e students to succeed, both their giftedness and their challenges need to be addressed. They need to be challenged in areas in which they’re gifted. They also need support in the areas where they struggle, just like any other student with a learning or thinking difference.If you’re not sure how your school handles that, ask how it meets the needs of 2e learners.Myth #5: Addressing weaknesses should be the top priority when helping 2e students.The National Education Association stresses that programs for 2e learners should be individualized to meet both special education and gifted needs. One isn’t more important than the other.Some school districts even have individualized learning plans to address specialized instruction for gifted students. Others have special programs to address the unique needs of 2e students. No matter how your school handles it, playing to your child’s strengths is best practice.Myth #6: 2e students need accommodations, so they can’t be in AP classes.While data shows that 2e kids are underrepresented in gifted programs, it’s not because these students can’t be there. Accommodations are changes that make it easier for your child to learn. They change how kids learn, not what they learn. So they have no impact on the content of the AP course.Myth #7: 2e students should be more mature than other kids their age.2e kids often have what’s known as asynchronous development. That means they’re far ahead intellectually, but far behind socially and emotionally. This gap can cause kids a lot of anxiety and make it hard for them to get along with other kids their age.2e kids may get easily frustrated with other students who don’t “get it” as quickly as they do. They may also have a lot of anxiety around doing things “just right.” They may come across as argumentative when they really just want to have in-depth discussions. And they can have trouble reading social cues the way other kids do.By building a good relationship with your child’s teachers, you can help dispel some of the misconceptions around 2e students. Learn more about the different kinds of learning strengths your child may exhibit. And read about an inspiring film that may help you feel more hopeful about your 2e children.
In ItWhat is neurodiversity? An interview with the host of “The Neurodiversity Podcast”
The term “neurodiversity” seems to be everywhere right now. But what exactly does it mean? And how does it apply to kids who learn and think differently? The term “neurodiversity” seems to be everywhere right now — in the news, the workplace, and even in your podcasts. But what exactly does it mean?In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra talk with Emily Kircher-Morris, counselor, author, and host of The Neurodiversity Podcast. Emily has a unique perspective on neurodiversity: She’s a neurodivergent parent to twice-exceptional kids. Listen in to hear Emily talk about what neurodiversity means, how it applies to kids who learn and think differently, and why the language we use matters. Related resources What is neurodiversity?All about twice-exceptional students The Neurodiversity PodcastTeaching Twice-Exceptional Learners in Today’s ClassroomsRaising Twice-Exceptional ChildrenEpisode transcript Amanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership and expertise for Understood.org. I'm a parent to kids who learn differently, and I'm a neurodiverse human.Gretchen: Hi, I'm Gretchen. I'm an editor at Understood. I'm also a former classroom teacher and a mom of two. And this is "In It.""In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. On the show, we talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. We offer perspective, advice, and stories from and for people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other learning differences.Amanda, I've heard your introduction a bunch of times, but I've never heard you introduce yourself as a neurodiverse human. That's a new one.Amanda: Yeah. I thought it was a good segue into our conversation today about neurodiversity because the term "neurodiversity" seems to be everywhere right now. It's in the news. It's in the business world. But we really wanted to explore what it means.And for the answer to this question and more questions, we thought it would be best to talk with my friend Emily Kircher-Morris, who's the host of "The Neurodiversity Podcast." She's also a fellow author, and her book "Teaching Twice-Exceptional Learners in Today's Classroom" came out in August.Gretchen: Oh, hooray!Amanda: Right. And Gretchen, like us, Emily has been a teacher. She's taught in gifted classrooms. She's been a school counselor. And these days, she lives in Missouri. She has a private practice as a licensed professional counselor, and she specializes in helping gifted and twice-exceptional kids.Gretchen: Emily, welcome. I'm so happy to meet you.Emily: Yes, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation.Gretchen: And Amanda just gave a great introduction of you, but it's my first time meeting you, so why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?Emily: Well, I am also a neurodiverse individual, which is part of why I have the passion that I do for this field. I have three kids. The older two are identified as twice exceptional, and my littlest is only in first grade, but, you know, we'll see how that all goes. I think we can probably make some good predictions, but, you know, this is my life between the podcast and my clinical mental health practice and just kind of advocating and supporting neurodivergent and twice-exceptional people.Amanda: So, basically, what you're saying is you live this the same way the rest of us do. Emily: I do. And, and you know, it's interesting, you know, how people, like, refer to parenting experts or whatever, and I'm going, "Oh, please." I talk about it a lot, and I read about it a lot, and I'm very good at brainstorming solutions, but I do not have it all figured out. We're all in this together. We're all trying to figure it out as we go. And if we can collaborate and work together on it, then that's just best for everyone.Amanda: And we thought who better to collaborate with on an episode about neurodiversity than the host of "The Neurodiversity Podcast." Right? I mean, it's literally in the name of what you do.Emily: It's literally in the name.Gretchen: Yeah. So speaking of that name, how would you actually define neurodiversity?Emily: So. Neurodiversity really is a concept that allows for a lot of different disorders or diagnoses that people have and recognizes that it's not necessarily always a deficit.A neurodivergent person has brain wiring that is atypical compared to the normative population, but that doesn't mean that they are dysfunctional or broken. So when we talk about autism or ADHD, these are things that are innate, that are in place since a person is born; they are not acquired. And there's nothing that you're going to do, like when I have kids come into my counseling practice, who are ADHD'ers or are autistic, like I'm not teaching them how to not have ADHD. Like I'm not, I'm not going to get them to not be autistic. Like that's just part of who they are. And neurodiversity really recognizes that, just like biodiversity in the natural world, having variation is good for the world, and it just kind of normalizes some of that while recognizing that these different neurotypes might operate in the world a little bit differently, but that doesn't mean that it's bad.Gretchen: Emily, that's such a beautiful way to explain the need for this term. And I'm wondering if you can also get into a little bit about what specifically falls under the term "neurodiverse."Emily: So we're talking about, like I mentioned, ADHD; I mentioned autism. We're talking about dyslexia, dyscalculia. Um, some people would put diagnoses like schizophrenia or bipolar or OCD in that category. Most people would not put diagnoses like anxiety, like generalized anxiety or, um, you know, major depressive disorder, but there's kind of like, in my mind, I visualize this Venn diagram where we have neurodivergent diagnoses and then we have mental health diagnoses, but there's definitely some overlap, like OCD, to me, I'm not quite sure where that should really fall.Amanda: I would say neurodiversity. I actually have OCD. So, to me, it feels like it.Emily: Well, it's, it's interesting because there's not necessarily an agreed-upon definition of what neurodiversity is or is not because I also, I agree with you on that, Amanda. But I also think there are some instances where, if the premise is that neurodiversity is something that somebody is born with, OCD is not always something that somebody is born with. It's like, depending on who you're talking to, you're getting different parameters for where things fall. And so, that's kind of why I say, I think it kind of straddles a little bit, depending on the individual.And I would also say that for example, um, I would put cognitive diversity or cognitive giftedness in the category of neurodiversity, and I think that's one that doesn't get recognized quite often. And I would also say twice-exceptional individuals, who are gifted and have another one of those diagnoses or a mental health diagnosis, if they need additional supports, like, they are also then neurodivergent.It's very broad and ambiguous is my point, but why I like the term. I do talk about my clients both as a group but also individually when I'm talking to their parents, I use the term "neurodiverse" as a way to explain and normalize their experiences, you know, because I feel like what happens is sometimes we fall into this, like, "Oh, well, they're just a little quirky." And I think more than anything, what that does is it minimizes a person's struggles. It disallows them access to accommodations. It enhances the stigma that surrounds those diagnoses.And I'm very much a believer that let's just call something what it is. And if we don't know what it is, there are kids, especially in my practice, who maybe we can tell are neurodivergent, like, we just know, but is it ADHD? Is it autism? Like, what exactly is going on? It can be very difficult to tease out. Do we need a full psychological evaluation? Do we need it for an IEP or a 504? Do we need medication? If we don't need any of those things, is it useful just for the person to have a label? Sometimes that's empowering for people to know what to call something. But sometimes we can just go, you know, they're neurodivergent, their brain works differently, and we don't necessarily have to drill down much further than that. It can be kind of an umbrella term.Amanda: That's super helpful. And also, as I'm listening to you say that, I had this moment because I realized when I talk about myself now, I talk about being neurodivergent. Diagnoses, labels, how that impacts me. But when I talk about who I used to be when I was a kid, I often will say I was a quirky kid. And I never thought about the fact that, that's actually, like, what I'm doing there is I'm minimizing who I was. Right?Emily: And you were an unidentified neurodivergent learner.Amanda: I was an unidentified neurodivergent learner. I wasn't just a quirky kid. There was actually something bigger there. I need to stop saying that. I need to stop saying I was a quirky kid.Emily: You know, I also want to just address the fact, though, that there are a lot of folks who like to talk about neurodiversity as a superpower. And I think that is also kind of like talking about like being a quirky kid. I think it diminishes the needs that go along with it.And there is nobody who is a part and really active in the neurodiversity movement who denies that being neurodivergent can be a disability. And what does that really mean? You know, Amanda, it's like, you know, I have glasses as well. It's like, I can see as long as I have the accommodation of my glasses. If you take away my glasses, I can't see anything.Amanda: Right.Emily: So I am then disabled. I'm unable to function in the world as others do. And so if I am an ADHD'er and I need certain accommodations in order to be able to focus, or if I have certain sensory processing needs, I can still fulfill my potential. I can still live my life as long as those accommodations are put in place. But if the world refuses to put those accommodations in place, then I am disabled.Amanda: And that's the social model. Like that's something that you and I talk about, know about, and I think I'm just going to like, take a pause and, you know, just for the listeners who don't —Gretchen: Good idea, maybe for me too.Amanda: The social model of disability is speaking about how you interact with the environment, and that the environment is what can cause you to feel more or less disabled. And it's not that you are inherently disabled, right? It's how the environment interacts with whatever differences or, you know, challenges that you have. You know, like, if we didn't have to read, the glasses wouldn't matter, right? If we didn't have to see each other, the glasses wouldn't matter. I just think it's important to note that that's sort of where that social model comes in is, is it's different than a medical model that says there's something inherently wrong with a person, right? Emily: And the neurodiversity movement, and neurodiversity just in general, lives in the world of the social model of disability.Gretchen: Emily, I've noticed you've been talking about people who may have ADHD as ADHD'ers, right? So that, I'm noticing, is different than some other language that I've heard where it's person first, and then the difference. And the way that you've been speaking sounds to me like the neurodivergent first. Can you explain that?Emily: Absolutely. I am an ADHD'er; I have a diagnosis of ADHD. I was given that diagnosis, but without the ADHD, I am not who I am. I am no longer Emily. There is just so much of that that is inherent because it is part of my neurological wiring, and neurodivergent communities were not the first to embrace this.The Deaf community — they use identity-first language: "I am a Deaf person." I believe that blind and visually impaired people also use identity-first language, because you can't separate it from how they interact with the world and how they see themselves. Autistic individuals. I am autistic. I'm not a person with autism.It's not like you can just like, get rid of that pesky autism, and then everything's just going to, you know, work OK. And we don't want to, we don't want to get rid of those things. Like, the reason I have the ideas that I have, the reason I can have 12,000 million things going on all at once is because the way my brain works, and if my brain didn't work that way, I wouldn't be an ADHD'er, but I also wouldn't be me.And there's an ownership to that, right? Like, this is who I am. I'm not perfect. I have strengths, I have struggles, but don't try to fix me because of the way my brain is wired. Somebody who is dyslexic, for example, what are the skills and the compensatory strategies that they build, and how does that influence their personality and how they interact with the world and how they see themselves? Like, you can't extricate that.Amanda: That makes sense. I want to actually circle back to something because we touched on it a little bit — is the "twice exceptional" thing. Emily and I both are twice exceptional, which is such a strange phrase. Sometimes you hear it as 2e; I'd love for you to talk about what that means.Emily: Yeah. So maybe I'll just go back and share a little bit about my story. So when I was growing up, my mom was a special educator in the school district where I attended school. And thank goodness, because I was a hot mess. And so she was on it, but she insisted, you know, when I was in second grade, that I was screened for the gifted program. She's like, this is not typical development, you know, with the things that I was doing and the questions I was asking and how I was learning. And so. Yeah, the district tested me and I was placed in the gifted ed program. But then by the time I was in fifth grade, I was really struggling. I mean, I have teachers who tell the story about having to dump out my desk to find my work. And we could get in a whole lot of different conversations about my experiences there, but, but the bottom line is I was really struggling.And so my mom went and found a neurologist. This was at a time that ADHD was still pretty new. It was very rarely diagnosed in girls. And I had teachers who would say, "Well, we don't think she should be allowed to go to her gifted education program because she's not getting her work turned in. I'm like, "Well, you're asking me to write spelling words five times each and I already know how to spell those words." So I don't want to do that. And that was at a time that we didn't even have the terminology "twice exceptional." So, "twice exceptional" means gifted and another diagnosis. So when I started out as a teacher, I started in just the general education classroom. As far as executive functioning goes, that was a really difficult environment for me.And so I quickly moved and got a master's degree in education with gifted education certification. And I've taught at both the elementary and the middle school levels in gifted ed programs. But when I got that master's degree, we didn't even talk about the term "twice exceptional." So this is like within the last 15 years that people have even really started to understand that somebody can have cognitive giftedness and have another diagnosis, and that they can still deserve and need services both for their cognitive ability to challenge them, but also special education services at the same time. And this is like blowing people's minds in the education world. Cause they just don't know where these kids fit. And when I was taught in the gifted ed classrooms, like that's where, like I found the kids who I connected with and they were of course the twice-exceptional kids, and I wanted to do more to support them.So I went back and got a second master's, in counseling and family therapy. And that's where I specialize with those kids. My mission is to protect those kids from some of the experiences I had as a kid, because it really sucked growing up in a world that didn't understand twice exceptionality.Amanda: Absolutely. You know, there's nothing quite like knowing there are things that you are brilliant at doing, and there are things that you are falling down at doing, and not being able to know why they both happen at the same time. There are some states now that look at gifted education as special education. And I think those are states that are doing it right, right? Because they're looking at the fact that it's specialized instruction, no matter why you need that specialized instruction.Going back to the whole parenting experts thing. I do think that there's an expectation sometimes when you have a neurodiverse child, when you have neurodivergence in your home, when you have twice exceptionality, there's this expectation that you've got to get it right as a parent; that you know how to do this. And I am here to tell you, you have no idea. Like, I have no idea how to do this.Emily: It changes day to day.Amanda: It does. And I'm not automatically a better, more prepared parent because of the kids I have. I just think it's important for parents to know that just because you have a child who is neurodivergent, you have a child who's twice exceptional, it doesn't mean you have to be better at parenting than anybody. You're just doing your best, right?Emily: You're parenting your child.Gretchen: I like that. But I still will go to you for advice, Amanda.Amanda: Well, you know, now you know Emily, so there we go.Emily: There's not so much. I always feel like, people will say, "Well, what should I do?"And it's not so much advice, but it's like, well, what have you tried? What other options are there? And like, let's just brainstorm it together. I might have more ideas just because I do this every day and brainstorm with people. And I've seen things that work for other families, but I am not the expert on your child.You're going to know what might work for your personality and their personality for the specific thing that's going on. But sometimes you've just got to step back for a minute and kind of figure out, "What could I do differently? This isn't working. I need to do something different. What is that different thing?"Amanda: Well, if you just recognize that you need to do something different is a big step too. Emily: You know, one thing I would, I would say to that, Amanda — and this is another one of my soapboxes that I like to get on, especially when it comes to neurodiversity and parenting neurodivergent kids — is that so many of us were raised with very behaviorally based interventions, meaning disciplines, as far as rewards, punishments, those sorts of consequences.You will not bribe your neurodivergent child into executive functioning. Like, that's just not how it works. And so taking things away from them or promising them whatever if they are able to do X, Y, and Z, it doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't teach the lagging skill. You might get some short-term benefit, but we have got to move away from behavioral solutions for neurological wiring difficulties.I think we do so much damage to kids by giving them consequences for things that really — not that they can't control, but they don't know how to control.Amanda: That's a soapbox I will stand on with you anytime. Well, Emily, thank you so much for talking to us today. Gretchen: So great to meet you and talk with you today.Emily: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it.Gretchen: Share it with the parents you know.Amanda: Share it with somebody else who might have a child who learns differently. Gretchen: Or just send a link to your child's teacher. Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need.Gretchen: Go to u.org/init to share your thoughts and also to find resources from every episode.Amanda: That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash "in it." You can also email us at InIt@understood.org.Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin, with special help this week from Anna Mazarakis. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry our production directors. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.
All about twice-exceptional students
Some kids with learning and thinking differences have exceptional skills in certain academic areas. These kids are sometimes called twice-exceptional learners. (You may sometimes see this abbreviated as 2e.) Learn more about these gifted students, their challenges, and how to help.
The Opportunity GapWisdom for families from LeDerick Horne, poet with dyslexia
Growing up, LeDerick Horne couldn’t read. Today, he’s a poet, activist, and person thriving with dyslexia. Hear his advice for families of color.LeDerick Horne Black man, poet, activist, person dyslexia. He’s spoken White House. wrote definitive book hidden disabilities. life could turned differently.As child, LeDerick couldn’t read. labeled “neurologically impaired” put separate special education classes. struggled find place Black man America learning differences. says one mistake could led prison worse, like many classmates.In episode, hosts Julian Saavedra Marissa Wallace talk LeDerick people made difference life. LeDerick shares advice help kids color learning differences thrive. Stay tuned end episode special reading LeDerick poem inspire family.Related resources Video: challenges African American learns thinks differentlyVideo: LeDerick Horne, poet activist learning disabilitiesTo Black America learning disabilityEpisode transcriptLeDerick: words describe this, "you're dumb" "you're stupid," neurological, biological roots behind mind works way does. label, part gives community. able say, "I dyslexic like Harry Belafonte dyslexic. dyslexic like Muhammad Ali dyslexic." could start making connections, narrative connecting people's narratives. just, that's empowering. It's uplifting act. That's why, like silences, it's never going golden. always give words experience.Julian: Welcome "The Opportunity Gap," podcast families kids color learn think differently. explore issues privilege, race, identity. goal help advocate child. I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian worked together years teachers public charter school Philadelphia, saw opportunity gaps firsthand.Julian: we're parents kids color. personal us.Welcome back, everybody. Julian Saavedra here. Hey, Marissa, what's going on?Marissa: Hi, Julian. Oh, know, excitement building today.Julian: Somehow, someway, incredibly fortunate continue really phenomenal people podcast. guest spoken United Nations; spoken White House. Black man, poet, activist, person living dyslexia. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Mr. LeDerick Horne.LeDerick: Hello, hello.Julian: Um, want make sure jump actual interview portion show. explained specifically one disability we're going focusing on.We're focusing dyslexia. Dyslexia learning disability reading. may also something student hard time reading comprehension, spelling, writing. making sure speak dyslexia, we're specifically focusing idea reading.Marissa: Thank you, Julian. Thanks clarifying listeners. thank you, LeDerick, incredibly much. beyond grateful you. want take back early days. would love tell us, tell listeners, school like world look like time?LeDerick: think different points time school times challenging, times uplifting. started education private school, Catholic school New Brunswick, New Jersey — St Peter's. kindergarten first grade, first time. first grade second time. know, remember kid. remember enjoying school around kids, even would struggling academically. recall first family, recommended placed back district. eventually recognized someone needed evaluated. initially given label neurologically impaired. great teacher, Ms. Priscilla Yates, first special ed teacher, much love poured every one us, feeling still today, investment caring had. also remember school district started gifted talented program, brand-new thing.And Ms. Yates really encouraged go part class. remember stepping first time feeling totally overwhelmed. I, point, I'd special ed years, realized moment, think I'd become institutionalized. placed environment little interaction students outside special ed, felt overwhelming. Middle school, lot emotion around, think, identity fit world, thought got good putting front OK. internally OK. got high school, challenging putting front maintain. got winter junior year, always describe emotional breakdown. primarily motivated think, one, stress trying like pass normal, also fear knowing going happen graduated high school. I, time know, like weren't really much way transition planning, knew I, like, wanted go college, didn't think folks like could go college read books solve complicated math problems, just, time. career goal seemed like always going like manual labor. depressed clearly showing signs needed mental health support.I'm fortunate I've totally won parent lottery. supportive family. think I've also resilient, used horrible time opportunity rebuild bounce back. started talking going college then, yeah, world changed me.Julian: Wow. love you're able reflective, like able look back identify specific moments time school career shifts. call like points diversion. one two three paths could chosen, path chose led specific outcome. So, thank that.LeDerick: Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, no, point divergence piece think important because, moment, I'm clear, like have, friends growing jail time. know, got involved kind behavior. And, would try point folks like, I'm pretty bright guy, many classmates, people brilliant.But think much around much support have. then, sadly enough, think it's also role dice. Like plenty times where, know, — don't know, encounter gone wrong way, maybe wouldn't today. also know I, existential dread think carried long time young person just, didn't think going live past 25. didn't think cards me.Just breakdown, know suicidal. I've described past like — clearest thing remember like wanting get altercation police officer that, get locked I'd shot killed. police officers name it: call death cop. And, um, yeah, are, dark times, fortunate none took place. given little bit time work little bit step potential.Marissa: That's really raw real, I'm appreciative you're point, obviously, life go reflect understand everything got exactly are.Julian: you, discover dyslexic? occur you?LeDerick: Uh, language interesting. gets label dyslexia doesn't. definitely think label privilege, right? So, grew New Jersey. born '77, I'm part first generation students really able take advantage Individuals Disabilities Education Act creation special education. state, one labels tossed around lot, particularly boys particularly boys color, "neurologically impaired." carried throughout entire time. like either went neurologically impaired class went behavior class, right? remember kids behavior class. But got college. my, uh, Middlesex County College, were, great support program students learning disabilities, attention issues, also provided evaluations. five years getting ready transfer university, asked evaluated. was, actually fun experience point, won many battles. learned write. I'd become math major. I'd like become strong self-advocate. And sitting evaluation, laughing places would struggle spelling reading, you. also like, slam dunking, like, remember, spatial relations question, lady
Video: How a Jeweler With Dyslexia Found His Strengths
From a young age, Blaine Lewis knew he learned differently. He was struggling in school with reading. And when he was 8, he was diagnosed with dyslexia. Lewis had strengths, too. He picked up knowledge quickly. He was also gifted with his hands, and he loved to create things.Even though his parents wanted him to go to college, he realized that wasn’t his path. Instead, he started a career in metalworking. In just a few years, he became an industry leader in the field of jewelry and stone setting.Hear from Lewis on how he found his strengths as a jeweler and goldsmith with dyslexia.
In ItUnpacking the teen mental health crisis: How we got here and what to do about it
The teen mental health crisis. How is it showing up in kids with learning and thinking differences? And what can we do about it? We’ve been hearing a lot about a mental health crisis that’s affecting kids — especially teens — really hard. What’s behind this crisis? How is it playing out for kids with learning and thinking differences? And what can we do about it?To help answer these questions, hosts Rachel Bozek and Gretchen Vierstra turn to Dr. Matthew Cruger. He’s the clinical director and a senior neuropsychologist at the Child Mind Institute. Learn how the crisis is showing up in his practice, especially with kids who learn and think differently. Hear Matt’s thoughts on when the crisis started — and why. Plus, get Matt’s advice on how families can help support their kids’ mental health. Related resources Treatment for mental health issues How to talk with your child about social and emotional issuesListen to this episode of The Opportunity Gap for more tips on supporting kids’ mental health Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: ...the ups and downs...Gretchen: ...of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today, we're talking about our children's mental health.Gretchen: We've been hearing a lot in recent months about a mental health crisis that's hitting kids, especially teens, really hard. It was there before the pandemic, but we know the isolation and anxiety brought on by COVID-19 didn't help.Rachel: And honestly, even if we weren't hearing about this crisis in the news, I think it would still be on our radar. Because speaking for myself, at least, I see evidence of it all around me.Gretchen: I do, too. I mean, I see it in my own home. And I've been hearing from lots of parents in the community that kids just seem to be saying a lot of "What's the point? Why should I do it?" And they're just lacking some of that motivation that I think kids used to have.Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess the question I have is: What's behind this crisis? How is it playing out in particular for kids with learning and thinking differences? And what can we do about it?Gretchen: So to answer those questions, we're speaking today with Dr. Matthew Cruger.Rachel: Dr. Cruger is the clinical director and a senior neuropsychologist in the Learning and Development Center at the Child Mind Institute.Gretchen: In that role, he does clinical work, neuropsych exams, cognitive assessments, and other evaluations for gifted children, as well as kids with learning difficulties, autism spectrum disorders, and ADHD.Rachel: We are delighted to have him here with us on the podcast. Matt, welcome to "In It."Dr. Cruger: Thank you.Rachel: We've been hearing for some time now about a mental health crisis for teens and even pre-teens. And we want to get into how this is showing up for our kids who have learning and thinking differences in particular. But first, we thought it might be useful to look at the problem more broadly. Even before the pandemic, we were seeing a marked increase in depression, anxiety, and suicide among teens. Is that right?Dr. Cruger: Yeah, I think that prior to the pandemic, we certainly recognized there's a couple of things that I think are factors. One is that we don't have enough clinicians to provide treatment for all the patients that need treatment. So families adjust to many of the struggles that their kids have, hoping that they'll get better, when some clinical intervention could be helpful in turning things around.Gretchen: What about what we've heard about the impact of technology and social media? Has that had a negative impact on kids?Dr. Cruger: I think so. Certainly, I think kids are spending a lot more time on technological devices. The impact of that is that they're not necessarily out interacting with other kids. Certainly, we want parents to monitor the kind of content that they're accessing as well, because there can be communications in that context that are problematic for kids and present a way of living in the world that's not as helpful. So the amount of engagement and the access to certain types of content on the on the internet I think is problematic and exacerbates things.Rachel: Yeah, I definitely saw this with both of my kids that when the pandemic hit, the device usage just like went through the roof for so many reasons that we all know and understand. But can you talk a little bit about how that contributed to this crisis?Dr. Cruger: Yes, I think that it was obvious because most of us were home and everything switched to remote platforms. Kids had to be on the computers every day for much of their schooling. And obviously many families couldn't also stop the work that they were doing. And so I think by necessity, some of the technology became — it served as a babysitter, right? For some of the time when kids had downtime. And it is less of an interactive experience, I think, even under the best circumstances.So I think with those increased time screen usage going up, we have pretty good evidence that that can have negative effects on their mental health experience. And I think it's persisted. So even with the return to school, the situation has sort of led kids to have a decrease in their experience, right?Gretchen: I think about engagement with the kids during this time period, right? Whether that was school or family. But like, really school, like I saw at home, at least for me, like engagement go down.Dr. Cruger: Yes, I do feel like — and I'm reflecting on my own kids in particular, who were in third grade and kindergarten at the time. So there are special, unique challenges at those developmental time frames. Right? Kindergartners need to learn to read. That is such a great process to do in person with a teacher who is helping you sound out words, who has books and content right there for you.And third grade when you're really starting to like apply yourself for deeper thinking. That's something where a mentor, a sort of coach, someone who's there as your champion to support you like a teacher could and give you direct feedback. That kind of engagement is really essential to the learning process that we are all used to. So there's no doubt that that was much harder to do. So I think that that clearly had an effect.Gretchen: Yeah, I mean, in my house I had a fifth grader going into sixth grade. So in middle school. That's such a social time for kids. And to be isolated from your peers during all of that, it was really hard.Dr. Cruger: Yeah. I think that during that time frame, the group of kids I was most worried about were kids that were in middle school heading to high school or in the early phases of high school. It's a time of really serious reflection on the material that you're working with in school. And really it's where a lot of those social advancements happen. Really learning where you stand in relationship to others and more complex social encounters and interactions were so important to develop in that time frame. And a lot of those kids I do think suffered. They were sad.Gretchen: So what does all of this look like and sound like in your practice? What have you been hearing from the kids who come into your office these days?Dr. Cruger: Yeah, I think maybe the first piece of things is like a low-level sort of sadness or anxiety about some experience that's sort of persisted. I do feel like kids benefit from the sense that they are going through some of these experiences for a purpose. And I think it's been very hard for us to know how to explain to them why things are organized the way they are. What's the higher purpose, what are they striving to achieve?So that reflects a little bit of the engagement piece, like to be fully engaged in the content of material. But also to feel like school happens in a certain way and we're headed for a certain destination. That seems to me to have been lost.Gretchen: Yeah, like I would say, like in my house, I've heard a lot of "What's the point?"Dr. Cruger: I think that's true. I think there's an apathetic sort of response. It's sort of like it doesn't really matter so much what I do. And I've heard it for a long time, you know, where in focusing on academic work with kids, you know, kids might have for a long time have said to me, like learning math doesn't really matter because I won't use it in my future.But it's maybe like a broader response to the time, like, I guess a feeling of like, I don't really know what the point is or what the goal is of what I'm being asked to do. That's a little bit of a helplessness towards the task and activity.Gretchen: Rachel, I want to step back for a second here and just pick up on something that Matt just said. He's talking about how kids responded to the time. What's that time? All the time Is the pandemic, right? When things really shifted. And I think it's worth unpacking a little bit about what that time was and what it did.Rachel: Yeah, right. Definitely. It's easy to forget from a little distance how just upside down our world was when the pandemic first hit. All of a sudden, a lot of kids discovered that their parents, their teachers, and maybe other people that they always would look to for answers really didn't have much to offer or know what to do.Gretchen: Yeah, I mean, it must have been — I know it was hard for kids to see rules changing all the time, adults complying, not complying. To see, you know, your parents who used to like get up and go out the door to work are now sitting at home in their pajamas on the screen all day. And what's happening there?Rachel: And and the rules about screen time kind of went out the window and, you know, some other rules, too, just because we were all just trying to get through the day. That's a lot.Gretchen: Yup. So it seems like all of a sudden kids are like: All these structures that you have in place are arbitrary and made up. And I'm not going to go along with this anymore.Rachel: Yeah, we got called out. So let's get back to our conversation with Matt.Rachel: We know that you work with a lot of children who have learning and thinking differences. Can you talk about how all of the stressors that we're talking about here may be affecting them in different ways?Dr. Cruger: Yeah. I mean, I think that if you — I guess I reflect on the learning differences that I see. The kids who are struggling with academics, in particular, the inputting of new ideas, new processes for solving problem. They need real guidance on how to manage that material. And that can sometimes come from family involvement, but often comes from direct instruction. They really need teachers who are able to guide them in that process of learning.Kids are struggling to find a source of motivation that they can direct their efforts to. And sometimes they feel like it's hard to know: Will their efforts pay off? And that can sometimes lead to sort of decreased motivation.Rachel: You know, we've been talking a lot about the impact of the pandemic on mental health. But I know there are a lot of other sources of anxiety and depression for kids these days. Things like school shootings and climate change. Do you hear about those kinds of things from the kids that you see?Dr. Cruger: Well, I think you bring up, Rachel, like a set of things that are on my mind. There's a bunch of global issues that kids confront. So it's very common for me to hear kids talk about sort of what we think of as like climate anxiety. You know, that worry that the world is on a crash course towards not being able to exist in the way that we know it. And that is a like a low-level worry and source of preoccupation for kids, even though they're highly motivated many times to do something about that.I think violence and safety is another thing that kids spend their time thinking about. And I certainly also think a lot of teenagers are focused on their own identity development. That's a developmental goal for that age range. And there's so much information about choosing your identity. What are acceptable identities? What are identities that others will not accept? That makes that process, I think, even more complicated for them. So those preoccupations, I think, sort of derail them from knowing how to invest time in the things that they need to do.Gretchen: Right they're figuring out all those questions around sexuality and gender identity. Not to mention, for older kids, they're thinking about what they want to do with their life. Is that something kids come to you for guidance on?Dr. Cruger: Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of teenagers think there might be only like four or five jobs that a person can have in life, or that college is the only choice.Rachel: Yeah, totally. Although they all seem to have gotten the memo that professional video game player is a thing.Dr. Cruger: There is no doubt.Gretchen: Or YouTuber.Dr. Cruger: Yes. YouTuber Influencer Professional Video Player. Yeah. Yes. I think I did say to my son at one point, not that many people get paid to play video games.Gretchen: Right.Dr. Cruger: He did not believe me. So.Gretchen: You know, not to bring us back to doom and gloom, but for one more moment, I do want to ask about something else has been in the news. Is this whole idea of loneliness — that we have a loneliness problem in the U.S. Are you seeing that come up in your work with kids?Dr. Cruger: I do think that it's worth sort of questioning what are the ways that kids have contact with others outside of school? When do they get to play with each other? I sound like, you know, I have a lot of gray hairs in my beard, which I do. But like, I remember being outside on the street playing football. And we just don't see kids out and engage with each other in unstructured play activities quite as much.And, you know, I do also think like going to your friend's house to play video games when I was younger was sort of boring. You could only play Atari 2600 for so long. But now they're much more engaging and activating processes that the kids immerse themselves in. And so I think it leads to some challenges in how to have contact.Rachel: So how can we best help our young people, you know, as parents, as caregivers, as teachers, whoever's listening. What makes a difference for them? You know, in all of these things, loneliness and the other things we've been talking about.Dr. Cruger: Yeah. I mean, I think most parents decided that they were going to have kids sort of set their kids up for the best future and the best life. So I think just reminding ourselves again of the importance of the parental involvement with kids, I think is the first piece of things. Right?It's been hard to, I think, over this past period of time, to keep our values front and center in our mind because we've had to adjust to what's required in the moment. And so to return again to the idea of, like, what are the most important things for me and my family? I do think there's value in families sort of trying to think of is there a motto that they could have for their family that sort of captures that moment, like "We Crugers stick together" or something like that? It sort of captures the family spirit, but also like a positive element of we're all in this together and we have values that we're trying to achieve.I do think spending more time together is a clearly like an antidote. As annoying as it was for my kids to learn to play pinochle, that was the thing that we focused on learning. Because it gave us time to get away from the screens, to sit down together, to challenge each other. And I think those kind of activities where you're really engaged with each other and having a good time are very important.There's no doubt family meals are also something that we should invest in. It's not always possible and it's not always easy when you're catching things on the fly. But that time where you're sitting down together as a family I think is really worthwhile.I won't say family meetings because everybody calls family meetings and the only people that show up are the parents. But I mean, but that idea that there's time to work together to align your interests. And then I think helping support your kids to find, you know, the one or two or three good friends, and making traditions and routines that they can sort of establish with their peers that are reliable. Like if they, you know, the friends all come over on Friday for pizza or something like that, that might be something that's like low investment but really worthwhile.Rachel: Yeah. I feel like our family meetings always, there's an expectation that there's some, like, amazing surprise. It's like, hey, we're going to have a meeting and it's like, oh, we're going to Disneyworld. Like, No, we actually need to talk about something that's going on in school.Dr. Cruger: That's right.Rachel: They backfired.Dr. Cruger: Taking out the garbage. Yeah.Gretchen: Right. The chore list.Dr. Cruger: Yeah, exactly.Gretchen: So if you think your own child may be anxious or depressed, but they aren't talking with you about it, what can you do as a parent? How do you figure out if they're at risk in some way or if they're just going through a fairly typical high and low of life as a teenager, for example?Dr. Cruger: Yeah, I mean, I think parents need to trust their instincts. I do think that when we have concerns about our children, it's not often just because we're worrying needlessly. It means that we're noticing something that our intuition is sort of telling us we better check in with them about.I think that a safe space for talking for kids is one that sort of models what we know good friendships are about. Right? It's sort of a model of a place where you can share information without someone making designs on how you should improve. Right?Some of the things that might make it easier if you're, you know, the teenagers turning away from you, if there's two parents involved, maybe it's time for the other parent to try to take over. And getting away from the house, going out to eat for breakfast, carefully bringing up a topic that you have concerns about. I think all of those things. You know, a nice soft start works well for all of us. Don't start with a heavy hand when we're raising a concern with someone that we love. And I do think that kids who are going through some struggles do desire solace for those struggles. So if they know that you're available for that, that's helpful.Anxiety is maybe a tricky one because anxious people try to get out of the situations that provoke anxiety. So even talking about the thing that makes you anxious, you really sort of are mobilized to seek to avoid it. The problem is, is that if you avoid it, it just sort of gets worse. And so I think that's one thing that parents should sort of keep in mind, that when your child is feeling anxious, it might make them sort of naturally more reticent to share with you the details of that.And, you know, some mind reading is very problematic. Like, if you say, I know you're thinking something negatively about it, the person you say that to is bound to get irritated with you. But if you say, I've been noticing that you look sort of sad and I want to help with that, you know, can you tell me more about what's going on for you? That kind of mind reading might convey interest and sincere desire to understand. That kind of mind reading is affectionate and maybe positive and might yield a good result.Gretchen: You know, getting back to making a safe space to talk to kids about what's going on. I've really been trying to do that. And I know I've mentioned before that I do a lot of this in the car, which doesn't work for everybody. But the other thing I've been trying hard to do, which is very difficult for me, is not be the advice giver, is to kind of just sit and listen and let them vent. And then when I don't give advice, every once in a while, my daughter will give me this look like, Well, where's your advice? I'm looking for it now. And then I give it.Rachel: Right. But you have to wait for that cue for sure.Gretchen: Yeah.Rachel: Yeah, I think that's great. And I try to do that, too. I definitely have some work to do there because I often jump in with like, well, it sounds like.... And I just offer my read on what happened, which isn't necessarily why the conversations happening.Gretchen: Yeah.Rachel: I do like that approach. and I think they do get to that point where they still want to know what we think.Dr. Cruger: Yeah.Rachel: So what do you wish people better understood about this crisis and how we get out of it?Dr. Cruger: I think my biggest wish would be really thinking about how they can, you know, parents can develop or teachers can develop like a deeper, more personalized understanding of the people that they're interacting with. So time is always tight, but a way to really show sincere interest and engagement, I think is important. Otherwise, it's sort of like almost like commuting culture. We're just sort of passing each other by, sort of missing those moments and opportunities to make deeper contact. So that's why I think what I would wish for it, you know, time and opportunity to take a moment to find out what's going on, I think that would be a real boon for people.Gretchen: That sounds like a good plan.Rachel: Thank you so much for this. It was such a great conversation.Gretchen: Yeah. Thank you so much.Dr. Cruger: Well, thank you. I appreciate being able to talk to you both. I enjoyed the conversation and I appreciate what you're doing.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being in it with us.
Understood Explains Season 3IEPs: Busting common IEP myths
Learn how to separate fact from fiction when it comes to the many myths about special education and IEPs. If someone says something that makes special education sound bad or negative, chances are it’s just not true. There are a lot of myths about IEPs, or Individualized Education Programs. And these incorrect or outdated ideas can keep some kids from getting school supports that can help them thrive. On this episode of Understood Explains, host Juliana Urtubey will bust common myths and explain the facts. Timestamps[00:38] Myth #1: My child will be labeled forever[02:10] Myth #2: My child will be in a separate classroom[03:15] Myth #3: IEPs are only for kids with severe physical or intellectual disabilities[04:17] Myth #4: Many kids with IEPs misbehave on purpose[05:34] Myth #5: My child needs to wait to get evaluated for special education services[07:13] Key takeawaysRelated resources10 special education myths you may hear5 myths about English language learners and special educationEpisode transcriptJuliana: If someone says something that makes special education sound bad or negative, chances are it's just not true. On this episode of "Understood Explains," we're busting IEP myths. From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "Understood Explains IEPs." Today we're separating fact from fiction. My name is Juliana Urtubey and I'm your host. I'm the 2021 National Teacher of the Year and I'm an expert in special education for multilingual learners. And speaking of languages, I want to make sure everyone knows all the episodes this season are available in English y en español. OK, let's get started. [00:38] Myth #1: My child will be labeled foreverMyth number one: My child will be labeled forever. This isn't true, but it's super, super common for families to worry about the stigma that may come along with special education. Stigma is often based on ideas about special education that simply aren't accurate, or, in some cases, are no longer accurate. Special education today is a lot different and a lot better than what you may have experienced or observed when you were in school. Having an IEP, or an Individualized Education Program, no longer means setting low expectations. Every child's IEP goals need to be tied to grade-level standards, and schools are working hard to keep all kids on track to graduate with a regular diploma. Now, coming back to the myth about labeling your child forever: It's just not true. If your child qualifies for an IEP, that doesn't mean they will always need special education. Let's say your child has dyslexia. After a year or two of specialized reading instruction, your child may not need these services anymore. No more IEP. So, getting an IEP does not mean getting a lifelong label. And there's one other point I want to make about labels. Getting supports through special education might actually help your child avoid negative labels. Struggling students who aren't getting enough support in school often act out in class, and they may even get labeled as a "bad kid" by some people. Behavior is one of the most important pieces of the IEP puzzle. It's also one of the most misunderstood. We're going to talk more about behavior later in this episode. [02:10] Myth #2: My child will be in a separate classroomMyth number two: My child will be in a separate classroom. So, this is a really common fear, but you can actually look up federal data on how many hours a day students with IEPs spend in regular classrooms. And it may surprise you to learn that two-thirds of all kids with IEPs spend 80 percent or more of the day in regular classrooms. In other words, most kids in special education spend most of the day in general education classrooms. Now, don't get me wrong — separate classrooms can be very helpful for some kids based on their needs. But for most kids, getting an IEP does not mean spending all day or even half the day in a special education classroom. In my 12 years as a special educator in Nevada, most of my students would come into my resource room for 30 or so minutes for one-on-one or small-group instruction. I also spent a lot of time in regular classrooms, working alongside general educators. And one reason I really enjoyed co-teaching with general educators: It gave us time to plan together how to support each child and celebrate their progress. [03:15] Myth #3: IEPs are only for kids with severe physical or intellectual disabilitiesMyth number three: IEPs are only for kids with severe physical or intellectual disabilities. Once again, not true. Half of all students with IEPs qualify for special education because they have a learning disability or a speech or language impairment. Only about 6 percent of kids with IEPs qualify for special education because of intellectual disabilities. Now, this myth about needing to have a severe disability often goes along with another misconception, which is that kids who are smart don't need special education. But this is not true. There are plenty of kids who are very strong in some areas, but need an IEP to make progress in other areas. "Twice exceptional" is a term you'll often hear to describe students who are gifted and also have a disability. And these twice-exceptional, or 2e students, are an important reminder about something I said in an earlier episode: Having an IEP is not a sign of low intelligence.[04:17] Myth #4: Many kids with IEPs misbehave on purposeMyth number four: Many kids with IEPs misbehave on purpose. So, this myth is really common when it comes to kids who have ADHD. And it can show up with other kinds of learning and thinking differences, too. Oftentimes, adults are convinced that a child doesn't really have a disability and that ADHD is just an excuse for off-task behavior. Likewise, some people think kids act in certain ways so they can get accommodations, like extra time on tests. They think that these kinds of supports are a form of cheating, or coddling, or getting out of tasks that kids don't want to do. But struggling students are often trying as hard as they can. They have a need that's not being met, and it's very common for these kids to have trouble expressing themselves. Maybe they're feeling an emotion they don't have words for. Maybe what an adult sees as defiance is actually a child who's overwhelmed with frustration or fear of failing yet again. Whatever it is, remember that behavior is a form of communication. Your child is trying to tell you something. Getting an IEP can help you understand what's causing the misbehavior, and help your child learn how to replace those challenging behaviors. Later this season, we'll have a whole episode on how IEPs can help with behavior. [05:34] Myth #5: My child needs to wait to get evaluated for special education servicesMyth number five: My child needs to wait to get evaluated for special education services. So, this myth is often related to another common misconception — that kids will grow out of whatever they're struggling with. But there are four really important things I want you to know about special education. First, research shows that students have a better chance at success in school when their struggles are identified sooner rather than later. Waiting to see if they will grow out of it can actually make it harder for a student to make progress and feel successful in school. And I'm not just talking about academics. Meeting kids' needs sooner can also help them socially and emotionally. The longer kids go without the right support, the more likely they are to believe really negative things about themselves. Like, "I can't learn, so why try?" Second, you can ask the school to evaluate your child for special education at any time and for any reason. Third, the law is very clear that schools need to be actively looking for kids who might need special education. If the school suspects your child may have a disability, the school can't delay the evaluation for special education. It can't sit back and wait. And the fourth and final thing I want to say about possibly waiting to evaluate has to do with multilingual students. Learning English at school is not a reason to delay getting an evaluation for special education. Schools can use the evaluation to see if kids are having trouble learning skills like reading or math in their home language. Evaluations can also factor in important details, like if a student missed a lot of school. We're going to talk more about evaluations in the next episode. [07:13] Key takeawaysAll right, so we've busted a lot of myths on this episode. Let's go over the facts once more. If your child qualifies for an IEP, that does not mean they'll be labeled forever or that they'll always need special education. Most kids with IEPs spend most of their day in regular classrooms, and half of the kids who qualify for special education have either learning disabilities or speech and language impairments. IEPs are definitely not just for kids with severe physical or intellectual disabilities.Struggling students may look like they're choosing to misbehave, but they're often trying as hard as they can, and they don't know how to tell you what kind of support they need. Behavior is a form of communication. And finally, if you or the school suspects your child has a disability, you don't have to wait to get an evaluation for special education. The sooner your child gets the help they need, the better. OK, folks, that's it for this episode of "Understood Explains." In the next episode, we'll take a closer look at how schools decide if a child qualifies for an IEP. You've been listening to "Understood Explains IEPs." This season was developed in partnership with UnidosUS, which is the nation's largest Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization. Gracias, Unidos! If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we've mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission. CreditsUnderstood Explains IEPs was produced by Julie Rawe and Cody Nelson, with editing support by Daniella Tello-Garzon. Video was produced by Calvin Knie and Christoph Manuel, with support from Denver Milord.Mixing and music by Justin D. Wright.Ilana Millner was our production director. Margie DeSantis provided editorial support, and Whitney Reynolds was our web producer. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Special thanks to the team of expert advisors who helped shape this season: Shivohn Garcia, Claudia Rinaldi, and Julian Saavedra.
Small success: My son with ADHD stood up to a bully
One day at school, my youngest son Benjamin, who has ADHD, saw another student being bullied. Benjamin has two older brothers — both of whom have experienced bullying. One brother has serious developmental and learning differences, but never gives up. He even was part of the Special Olympics a few years ago. The other brother is an incredibly gifted but quiet kid who has trouble with social situations.When Benjamin saw the bullying in his school hallway, he remembered everything his brothers had gone through. So Benjamin went right over to the bully and told him to stop — and the bully did! As a mom, I’m proud of all my sons. They’ve all taken on challenges with grace. But what Benjamin did was special because I know how much he cares about his brothers and our family.— Sarah P.Sarah is a mother of three children with learning and thinking differences.Learn steps to take if you suspect bullying at school. Read how to help your child defend against bullies. And find out what one mom did when she found out her daughter was being bullied by mean girls because of her learning differences.
ADHD Aha!ADHD and the myth of laziness (Rebecca’s story)
Rebecca is a high achiever who’s always pushed herself to work around and compensate for her ADHD challenges. And yet she still thought she was lazy. Rebecca Phillips Epstein has ADHD. But as with many high-achieving girls, her symptoms were missed early on. Then, during the pandemic, it finally clicked: She discovered a Twitter thread about people who beat themselves up for being lazy when clearly they’re not. Rebecca has always been aware of her challenges — procrastination, being late, and having a million great ideas that never get finished. As a screenplay writer and essayist, she’d overcompensate so no one would be the wiser. Hear how an ADHD diagnosis helped her rethink what she used to call “personality failures” or “laziness.” Also in this episode: How depression treatment before her ADHD diagnosis helped her tread water but never “surf.” Rebecca also talks about her decision to stop breastfeeding her second child in order to stay on her ADHD medication. Related resourcesADHD and the myth of lazinessADHD and the brain8 common myths about ADHDYou can also check out Rebecca's Washington Post article on ADHD medication and breastfeeding. Episode transcriptRebecca: I was scrolling through Twitter and came across a thread written by a woman who talks a lot about ADHD and writes a lot about ADHD. And she said that in her experience, the thing that causes her to pause and suggest to someone that they might want to talk to someone about this is when she hears people describe themselves as lazy when clearly they are not. She wrote, "If you're sitting around thinking that you're lazy, thinking that you're a failure, please allow me to suggest that maybe you're not." And it was like all those years of not understanding myself just suddenly made sense. All of the near-misses and the failures and the frustrations just clicked into place.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Rebecca Phillips Epstein. Rebecca is a screenwriter and essayist who lives in Los Angeles. She's worked on a bunch of shows, including "Roseanne" and "Emily in Paris." She's also written for a variety of publications, like the Washington Post's On Parenting blog. Hi, Rebecca. I'm so glad you're here today.Rebecca: Hi. Thanks for having me.Laura: So let's dive right in, Rebecca. I would love for you to start by telling me when you were diagnosed with ADHD and what was going on in your life at that time.Rebecca: I was diagnosed with ADHD in June of 2020. And what was going on in my life at that time? The majority was what was going on in a lot of people's lives, which was the pandemic had totally changed every aspect of my life and career and family life. I had two young children. One was in his last year of preschool and the other was 6 months old. And in May of 2020, I was on Twitter and stumbled across a thread by a woman named Erynn Brook, who writes a lot about ADHD and neurodivergent brains. And it had been retweeted by a friend of mine. And because I care about this friend and I'm always interested in what they post, I clicked through.And it was a thread talking about speaking to people and helping them realize that they have ADHD. It happens a lot. And that she says when people are talking to her, the things she listens for that makes her say "you might want to talk to somebody about this" is when they tell stories about things they want to do, that they know how to do, that they care a lot about, that they just can't do. And they write themselves off as lazy or terrible people.And she wrote that the thing about lazy people is they don't actually care that they're lazy. They don't care that they're letting people down. They're fine with that pattern, truly lazy people. So if you're sitting around calling yourself lazy because you can't understand why you can't get things done and you're beating yourself up about it, perhaps you're not lazy. Perhaps it's something else. And it was like 30 years of tiny "aha" moments all of a sudden just exploded.I often compare it to at the end of "A Beautiful Mind," when Jennifer Connelly walks into the murder shed and he has all those pictures with the strings connecting everything, and the room starts to spin. That's what it felt like for me, because I had two very close near-misses to getting diagnosed throughout my life. But it hadn't happened. And in this one moment, just this one Twitter thread, I realized, like, it made everything make sense.I immediately emailed my therapist and said, "When I see you in two days, I need to talk about this." And we talked about it and she said, "I think this is undeniable." So I called my psychiatrist. I was incredibly lucky that I had known my psychiatrist for years, because she had treated me for postpartum depression when my oldest was a baby. So we had a long relationship. So when I went in there, I had a shorter diagnostic evaluation because she had years of notes on me and knowledge about my life. And she just said, "Yes. You meet the entire diagnostic checklist. You are a textbook example of how this gets missed in high-achieving girls."And similar to your story, Laura, I was a perfectionist. I fell back on my AP classes, my top 10 university degrees, being 15 minutes early for everything, because if I wasn't 15 minutes early, I was going to be extremely late. I knew what my shortcomings were, and I overcompensated for every single one that I could so that no one would know. Because I knew I wasn't good enough. But there was no good reason why. So I just had to hide it.Laura: Yeah, so you were overcompensating all this time and — but yet feeling like you were lazy. And that's — it's so interesting because one person says one thing in one particular way, and it just clicks. And you had that "Beautiful Mind" moment. So what were you feeling lazy about?Rebecca: Oh, God. Procrastinating everything. Being late on everything. A million terrific ideas that never got finished. You know? And as a writer, writing is hard even for neurotypical writers. It's like the Dorothy Parker quote, "I hate writing, but I love having written." And with ADHD, you never get to the point where you have written. You have the ideas, you know how you want them to be. But getting them out — getting started — is a nightmare. And I came up with some tricks and some tips and deadlines, of course, pressure.But for me throughout my life, I was just always that kid whose paper was a day late. And so all through high school it was, "Oh, my printer didn't work." "I emailed it to you. Didn't you get it?" And things that every teacher knows what that is. And because I was good and smart and accomplished, they let me get away with it. And I never learned that lesson when I was young enough to learn it. And so instead the lesson I learned was that I could get away with it. And it had that effect of me thinking that if I did put in an effort, then it meant that I wasn't good at something. So I had this, like this double bind of I'm naturally gifted, so I shouldn't have to work that hard. But even when I do work as hard as I can, sometimes I can't even produce anything.Laura: Yeah. Yeah.Rebecca: And in graduate school, it just got worse and worse because there was less oversight. I wasn't living with my parents to provide that structure, and so I would just stay up all night and wait. And I would have a paper that really I should have spent two weeks working on, and I would do it in 8 hours. And I would do almost as well as I could. And at the time, of course, I chalked it up to imposter syndrome and fear of failure. And "Oh well, if I work as hard as I can and I don't do well, what does that say about me? So that must be why."You know, there was always another explanation. "Oh, I'm depressed. That's why my house is a mess." And I was treated for depression a couple of times throughout my life. And I remember saying to the psychiatrists who were treating me, "I feel like I'm not drowning anymore, but I don't feel like I'm surfing." Like I'm never ahead of it.Now, looking back, I recognize that that's because I wasn't dealing with a serotonin deficiency. I wasn't dealing with standard depression. I was dealing with a dopamine deficiency, which is different. I was dealing with ADHD and the depressive behaviors that sometimes come with ADHD. So it looked like depression, right?Laura: Yeah. ADHD and depression can kind of mimic each other. Hats off to you for going into a writing career. I know exactly the feeling that you're talking about when — there's a reason that I'm an editor and I'm not a writer. I love when I have produced something — to go back to your Dorothy Parker quote — but getting there is just impossible. But I'm really fast when I can edit something.Rebecca: I didn't start out as a writer. I sort of tried to do everything, but — and when I look back, it's like, I don't know how I missed it because in college I did improv. I didn't do sketch in graduate school. I went to theater school, but not for playwriting, for dramaturgy. And the job of a dramaturg is to basically read drafts and give notes. To sit next to a director and just say thoughts to them. The job was immediate. It was very in the moment. A lot of the job was sitting and bouncing thoughts around and bringing my sort of academic background into a rehearsal room, which could be done live in the moment.And I noticed that I always thrived in environments where the only prep was being really smart or being really competent, and where the actual work was something I could do live — where it wasn't about homework, it wasn't about preparing, it was about showing up prepared. And that the bulk of the work was happening in the immediate sense. So there was no way to procrastinate. You know, I instinctively chose this path that leaned into my skills as a person with ADHD and where I could be creative but be in the moment.But when I moved to Los Angeles, I started working at a talent agency as an assistant. And a lot of the job was making phone calls, managing calendars, sending materials. And my boss has had upwards of 50 clients who all had submissions going out, who all had meetings to attend that I had to schedule. And everything gets rescheduled a million times. So there were hundreds and hundreds of emails every day and dozens of packets that had to go out. And so much to keep track of. And I recognized very quickly — this is pre-diagnosis — that I was going to forget everything unless I figured out a way to not allow myself to. So I created this enormous tracking spreadsheet where every single step had its own — put the email together, send the email, get response to email, check with my boss about response. Follow up with the same.Laura: Reminder to check the spreadsheet.Rebecca: But it was like every single step of like receive email, reply to email, was its own step, right? Everything so that I would know what step I was at and what I needed to do. And then I structure my day of, in the morning and the afternoon, there were 45 minutes where I would go down and see what can be followed up on. Where am I at? What have I left hanging? And this spreadsheet was so useful to me during the busy times of year that I — people started asking me for it. Other assistants in the department. And I am told that years later it's still a thing that assistants use in staffing season so that they don't lose track of things. Now, I had a pile of six months of contracts to be filed that I kept under my desk that nobody knew about. And then when I left the agency, the person who took over for me just had to do it as part of her training.Laura: Oh, my gosh. Rebecca, that is like some intense coping mechanisms there, but I'm really glad that it worked out for you and that now it's helping other folks at the company.Rebecca: Everybody knows what that's like to lose track of things, to forget things, to be overwhelmed. And it's not like these systems wouldn't help someone who's neurotypical, you know. And I think that's part of — they know that's part of — what's so tricky with ADHD is that all of the symptoms taken on their own are common. Everybody forgets things. Everybody loses things. Everybody interrupts people. Says things they shouldn't. But it's how much of it are you doing? Can you stop it? And how much of an impact is it having on your ability to live your life the way you want to?Laura: Right. That's something I talk about with a lot of guests is the ubiquity of the signs and how that leads to so much like excuse-making. Sure, everybody struggles with it every once in a while, but like the severity and the frequency with which you struggle is huge. But because they're such common things, people tend to blame themselves. Again, going back to the laziness thing, I'm just being lazy. Or I should just — I just need to try harder. Or I didn't exercise today or whatever.Rebecca: And before I knew why, it was very difficult to make changes. Because if the only reason that I had for why I was doing these things was personality failures, then I couldn't solve it, right? Because if it's just, oh, this is just who I am and I am a failure. I'm lazy. I'm weird. I have a hard time making friends. I am obnoxious in group settings. You know, if it's just me, if I'm just terrible, then there's nothing to be done. And it was really not until after the diagnosis that I could give myself that grace of like, let's look at this a different way. Which I had not been able to do my whole life.And an example I talk about a lot is like vacuuming the floor. I, like many people, especially people with ADHD, housekeeping and cleaning is impossible. Because it's drudgery. It's not fun. There are so many steps, and I'd rather be doing other things. And for some reason, vacuuming was really the one that bothered me the most — that I could not make myself do. So I just would sit there after I put my kids to bed and watch the chunks of mac and cheese just drying on the carpet, going, "I have to vacuum. I have to do it. Just get up and do it." And I wouldn't. And I just wouldn't. And I would think, "Oh, I'm like, I'm a piece of shit. I'm a piece of shit. That's the only possible reason." And then after the diagnosis, it was OK. I have been spending years and years trying to force myself to vacuum because that was the only solution I could come up with to the problem of I don't vacuum. But the real problem is my floor is not clean, my carpets are not clean.So if I say like, let's just assume I'm never going to be a person who vacuums. Let's assume that my ADHD will never allow me to vacuum. Because what's really hard about it is the number of steps. The vacuum cleaner is like in a closet behind the garbage can in my small kitchen. So I have to move the garbage can, open the closet, take it out, unwind the cord, plug it in, move the table, move the chairs, push the thing around. It's like 15 steps and it's really annoying.So I said, "OK, so what if I'm never going to do this? Do I have to vacuum or do I have to have a clean floor?" And I bought a Dustbuster and it sits on a stand on the bookcase within arm's reach of my chair at the dining — I don't even have to get up. So now my floor is clean because I asked a different question. The fact that I couldn't even give myself permission to say "Maybe I should do this a different way" — that's one of the hardest parts of living with undiagnosed ADHD is, I think, the pressure you put on yourself to do things the same way everybody else does. Because you don't have, or I didn't have, a good enough reason to make those accommodations for myself.Laura: Exactly. The way that you described laziness was really important, because I don't like when people are critics of ADHD, say, OK, we're just making an excuse for laziness here. Because to your point earlier, it's not real laziness that we're talking about. We're not talking about we're not giving a damn about doing the things. Like there's a deep care — like you want your floor clean. You really genuinely care. You just could not get to it for whatever reason. I think that that's really interesting and important.Last time we chatted, you mentioned that when you were 7 you were almost diagnosed with ADHD. I would love to hear what was happening at that time.Rebecca: So I was in the second grade and I have no memory of this, so I'm kind of cobbling together what my parents told me. I have no memory of any of this, and I didn't find out about it till I was in my early 20s. But from what I understand, I was doing like a fine job in second grade grades-wise. And my teacher called my parents and said some version of "Rebecca is having more trouble in my class and she should given how smart she is. You might want to get her evaluated for ADHD." And so they took me to the pediatrician, who was like this old-school Manhattan pediatrician, who evaluated me and said unequivocally, "She does not have this. She is reading at a sixth-grade level. She can sit still and color for hours. Like that's not ADHD. Sounds like she's just bored and the teacher needs to work harder."Laura: Well, bored might have been true.Rebecca: For sure.Laura: Yeah, that's — again, ADHD is not related to intelligence.Rebecca: So I went back to school. And what I do remember is that I started meeting weekly with this teacher, and she created a chart for me. And every week there were check-ins of how I was doing on the different markers that would show up on the report card. From what I remember, it was more about just finishing everything, you know, and staying on task and not letting myself get distracted by other things. And so what she was doing was the kind of behavior modification that we know works now.And my grades improved. And it's funny, the reward. My parents said, if you get — I don't even remember what it was — you know, all satisfactory pluses, I was going to get a Game Boy. And I did it, and I got my Game Boy, and the game that was on it was Tetris. Which is kind of an amazing metaphor for what the 30 years that followed that were like. Because, you know, as you're playing Tetris, it starts out with the blocks are falling slowly, you have the whole screen to work with, and you turn them to make lines. And as the levels get higher and higher, they start to fall faster. And when you're not able to make straight lines, then you have less space to work with. Right?I was so smart at like the game of Tetris in life. But even though my pieces were falling so fast and I had so little space to work with, I was beating level after level. I did it! But I knew it was harder for me than other people. And if I'm supposed to be this smart, why is this hard for me? And what I didn't realize was that, like, my game was busted. Like other people had more space to work with. Their pieces were not falling as fast. And I was holding myself to the same standards that everybody else was. But I was working with a totally different system.Laura: Shout-out to that teacher, by the way. She sounds fantastic.Rebecca: Mrs. Bronsky, if you're listening, she really was my favorite. Mrs. Bronsky. She was just a sweet, gorgeous, funny. I loved her. But she saw it. She saw and she believed in me. And she built my confidence. She didn't punish me for these things. She found a way to reach me, which was really special, and it really made that year possible for me.Laura: So I really like this Tetris analogy. I love the way that your brain works. It's a very visual, creative image, and it's helping me understand, like, the pieces of your life, actually, as we listen to it. So at that point then, you're in your 20s, and they're like, "Well, it wasn't a thing." So you're like, "OK, bye. Bye, ADHD."But then you have your second child. It sounds like it just started storming Tetris pieces at that point. And not all of the "ADHD Aha!" listeners are going to maybe be as interested, but I would ask that they try to be interested in this aspect of it, because it's very interesting to me as a mom who breastfed. I believe you were breastfeeding your second child and you were at the same time like getting evaluated and diagnosed with ADHD — and potentially going on medication. So I would love for you to talk me through your thought process.Rebecca: You know, the recommendation that my obstetrician and my psychiatrist at the time made was to avoid it. Because the way that it is described is it should only be taken if the benefits to the parent outweigh the potential risks to the infant. And so for most people who are breastfeeding and have ADHD, it's like who would say that any potential risk to your baby is worth it? I mean, I went through that moment of like, well, I've suffered for 30 years without meds. Surely I can do six more months to get to a year.Laura: Get to a year of breastfeeding, you mean?Rebecca: Yeah, because with my oldest, I had done 14 months. It was not always easy, but it was easy-ish, you know? And it was because I had terrible postpartum depression with my oldest. Breastfeeding felt like a thing I could do. So I was like, I was going to do one thing well. And with my second, I did not have postpartum depression, like, at all. So for the first three months of his life, pre-pandemic, I was like, I love being a mom of two kids. Like, this is going well for me. I'm good at this. I am managing this in a way that I never could before. I had found a rhythm that works. I finally felt like I was getting the hang of it.And then the pandemic and everything shut down. And it was emotional overwhelm and a totally different schedule. And everybody was trapped in a thousand square foot apartment and all the things that have happened to so many people. So then when I got diagnosed and the question arose of what was I going to do? Sidebar: I would certainly recommend that any listeners speak to their doctors about the risks, about the benefits. And this conversation seems to be evolving. But at the time that I was diagnosed, it was presented to me as rather binary.And I will say that my psychiatrist was very flexible in that she said, you know, there might be a way to take short-acting medication and kind of pump and dump around it and minimize the risk as much as possible. But the amount of pumping I had to do before I took the 4 hours of medication, and then the pumping and dumping I had to do during to keep my supply up, and then after to get rid of any residual meds. And then I still had to feed him. Within a month of trying to do this, it became obvious that this was not going to work.First of all, I was miserable. And the whole time I was on the meds I was spending attached to a breast pump. And the difference for me, the first time I took the medication was so immediate and so obvious. You know, I compare it to like the first time you get on an airplane and put on noise-canceling headphones and all of a sudden you realize just how loud it was. You had no idea. And within 30 minutes of taking my very first dose of short-acting medication, I walked into the living room where my husband was sitting and I said, I'm going to have to quit breastfeeding. I am — there is no — I cannot not feel this way. I cannot — I feel normal. I feel quiet. I can't go back. This is — there's no way. I can't. No way.Laura: Clearly, you made a very informed decision. You did your research. You know, you did what was best for both you and for your baby. Like, if you're not in good shape, then how can you care for a child? And I'm curious about any feelings that came with that. Because we put so much pressure on moms to breastfeed. And then there's — you've got the shame feelings maybe around ADHD, and then the shame feelings around mom. I mean, did that just like concoct into like a cauldron of, like, crazy shame?Rebecca: At first, it was torturous getting him to take a bottle even of pumped milk at first. And there was this part of me that was going, "Why am I doing this to him? How can I be doing this to him just so that I can, like, have an easier time remembering where I put my keys down? That's not fair. It's not fair to him." But also because of what my constellation of symptoms are, my issues with emotional regulation and getting overwhelmed. I mean, all parents get overwhelmed, right? So when you already have an issue with getting overwhelmed and your go-to response is anger and freak-outs, which mine was, marriages suffer. Parent-child relationships suffer. And if it was me and a baby in a vacuum, that would be one thing. But it was me and a baby and a 5-year-old who had had everything taken from him. He was about to go to kindergarten. His fifth birthday was March 10th, 2020, and so his was the first birthday party that was canceled.So, OK, even if breastfeeding is what makes you a good mother, which it's not, but let's go with that for a second. Let's say breastfeeding makes you a good mother, OK? To a baby. But I had two kids. And I had to be a good mother to both of them. And on my meds, I am a better mother to both of them in the day-to-day activities of being a mother. Breastfeeding is a very passive, often, activity, which is wonderful when it works. But there is so much else that happens during the course of the day.And my oldest was old enough to remember. He knew what was going on and he needed me. And the bar for what I needed to do every day had gotten higher, because I needed to be able to shift between virtual schooling and infant care and dealing with our financial issues. Because my husband and I both work in TV and film and the whole industry was shut down. There was so much going on that required not just my active attention, but for me to be really at my best. And also I had already been breastfeeding for six months. That's a long time. I made it a long time.Laura: You did! Kudos to you.Rebecca: It just really wasn't a choice.Laura: I love when smart, strong women make thoughtful choices about what's best, not just for the people in their lives that they take care of, but also what's best for themselves. Because that ultimately makes us better mothers, better friends, better co-workers. So I think that it's really beautiful how you've navigated your diagnosis and motherhood. I mean, there's — you've got so much going on and you are, like, you're thriving. You're like a badass lady out there in L.A., let me say. So, I mean, cheesiest thing I've ever said.Rebecca: I mean, you know, I think so. And I think knowing that it's genetic and knowing that there is a high chance that one or both of my kids will have it, I've been able to lay that groundwork of — well, my youngest is young to understand. But my oldest, I told him about my diagnosis. I told him what it means. I told him how it shows up in my life.He knows I take medication. And I said, "It's kind of like how I wear glasses. I can't see as far as other people. I wear my glasses and I can. My brain can't organize itself the same way other people's can. I take my medication and it's easier." So that if and when the day comes, when that becomes his story, he will not see it as something being bad or wrong. He will see it as, oh, everybody has things about themselves that are harder for them than they are for other people. And maybe this is mine, and mine happens to have a name, but that doesn't mean it's worse or bad, it just is.And so it's been not just a gift to me in my parenting that I now know myself better and am more capable, you know, and mostly calmer. But it's been a gift to me that I get to consciously pass those things along to my children — however their brains are organized — and give them permission to do things in a way that works for them.Laura: That's beautiful. It really is. And I'm going to carry that with me when I go home and see my kids this afternoon. So. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.Rebecca: Thank you for having me. I loved talking to you. I mean, this type of conversation was life-changing for me in my own journey. So I'm so thrilled to be a part of it.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi, everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.
6 common myths about learning and thinking differences
There’s a lot of misunderstanding about learning and thinking differences like dyslexia and ADHD. Here are some of the most common myths — and facts to debunk them.Myth #1: Learning and thinking differences aren’t real.Fact: Learning and thinking differences like dyslexia and ADHD are very real. They’re not made-up challenges. They’re caused by differences in how the brain develops and functions, and they often run in families.Myth #2: Learning and thinking differences aren’t common.Fact: Millions of people learn and think differently. These challenges aren’t always easy to spot, though, for lots of reasons. People may hide their difficulties. Or their challenges may go unnoticed by families, teachers, and employers. Chances are you know someone who learns and thinks differently.Myth #3: People who learn and think differently aren’t smart.Fact: Having learning differences doesn’t mean people aren’t smart. They can be gifted, too. But they may struggle in school or at work because of their differences. And that can lead others to wrongly assume that people with ADHD, dyslexia, or other differences aren’t intelligent.Myth #4: People who learn and think differently are “just being lazy.”Fact: Learning and thinking differences don’t just “go away” through sheer willpower. People who learn and think differently are often trying as hard as they can to work around challenges. They need the right kind of support to thrive.Myth #5: Kids grow out of learning and thinking differently.Fact: Kids don’t outgrow these differences, so it’s not just a matter of catching up. They’re lifelong challenges. The sooner kids get the support they need, the sooner they start to make progress.Myth #6: People who learn and think differently can’t do well in school or at work.Fact: With the right support, kids who learn and think differently can make great progress and thrive in school. Thriving means something different for everyone. It could mean calmly sitting through a class. Or it could mean getting A’s. The same goes for jobs and careers. Look in any field and you can find examples of people who learn and think differently and are thriving.Debunk more myths about learning and thinking differences. Get to know common myths about dyslexia and ADHD.
The Opportunity GapGrowing up with ADHD: An interview with René Brooks
ADHD advocate René Brooks was diagnosed with ADHD twice as a child. But it wasn’t until she was diagnosed again as an adult that she finally got support. Listen to her story. René Brooks was diagnosed with ADHD twice during her childhood. But stigma and shame kept her family from learning more and getting her the right support. So when she was diagnosed with ADHD for a third time at age 25, she decided to take control of her own journey. In this episode, René unpacks her experiences growing up with ADHD. Listen as she explains: The impact of delayed interventionWhat she wishes the adults in her life did differently And why it’s important to build support systems for kids with ADHDRelated resourcesRené Brooks’ podcast: Life With Lost KeysChildren and Adults with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity DisorderMasking ADHD symptoms to go above and beyond (René Brooks’ story)Episode transcriptJulian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. And there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. Hey OG family, welcome back to another episode of "The Opportunity Gap." Today's show is about growing up with ADHD. ADHD is a common condition that's caused by differences in the brain. Some people with ADHD mainly have trouble with focus, but this learning difference can impact other skills, including managing emotions. ADHD isn't a matter of laziness. It's not a matter of willpower. It's much more than that. And today's guest is here to debunk that myth and share her journey. So I'm super hyped to welcome René Brooks to the show. Welcome, René. Welcome welcome, welcome. René: Hey, Julian. Thank you. Julian: Oh, I'm so glad you're here. She is amazing, listeners. She's not only an advocate, she's a content creator. And she's the host of Life With Lost Keys podcast. She's a black woman with ADHD, and she's committed to silencing the shame and empowering kids and adults with ADHD. I really believe, I truly do believe that her experiences can help parents and educators better support kids with ADHD. René, welcome to the pod. René: Thank you so much for having me. It's a wonderful thing to be here with you today, Julian. Julian: Of course. So let's get into it. We're talking all about growing up with ADHD, and we know that growing up with ADHD is vastly different for every single person. So René, can you tell us a little bit about what it was like to grow up with ADHD? René: Absolutely. For me, it was always hearing that I wasn't performing up to my potential. Dealing with teachers who were frustrated by that and thought I was challenging them maybe, by not doing the homework or keeping up with the lessons, but always having me answer in class because I knew the material. It was having to put up with my mother's exasperation too. It was always having to be pulled into a meeting. My mother was a big fan of the meet-and-greet with the teachers, and if things weren't going smoothly in the classroom, I might get pulled out of one class to be in a meeting with three other teachers to find out, "Hey, what the heck is going on with this girl? And why isn't she performing up to snuff?" So, there was a lot of frustration and embarrassment on every side of the problem. Julian: Do you feel like you were bored? René: Yes, in some subjects I was bored and that was the thing that people always wanted to know. "Is she just bored?" And the answer is not quite as simple as just boredom. I think I was bored, but I was also understimulated. But I was also, you know, some classes you just don't like. And when you have a challenge like attention deficit disorder, you're going to not pay attention in those classes because they can't pique your interest. Julian: Got it. Thinking about just the way that you describe your teachers and sometimes mom, and how she would feel a certain type of way about your progress in school. Can you go back to childhood René, and describe how did childhood-René feel about all this? What did it feel like to be labeled "challenging," or to have all these questions about your progress in school? René: It was embarrassing for me. I really, really disliked it because I just wanted to... I just wanted to do the things so that they would stay out of my hair. Does that make any sense? Julian: That makes total sense.René: Nobody wants to be seen as " the problem child," you know? Julian: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important for our listeners to just hear the feelings attached with the labels that sometimes we place on our students and/or our children. And here René is explaining that, just wanting to be seen, and how sometimes that might equate to how she felt about herself, like the idea of self-esteem really plays into that. I'm wondering if you could go back to that time. Would there be something you'd want the adults to do differently? René: Yeah. I would want them to approach me as if, not as if I were an equal, but as if I was not just a problem to be solved. As if I was a human who a conversation could be had with and not just "What do we do to make her perform?" And the funny thing about it was, they knew that I had the ability, because I was also in gifted and talented classes at the same time, so they really...Julian: Oh, so you were twice exceptional? OKRené: I was twice exceptional. So, the idea back then in the 90s was always like, "Oh, they're twice exceptional. Give them more work or challenge them. They're not being challenged enough. They're bored. Stack some other strange stuff on top of there so that they can perform." Julian: And that's interesting because there's a much larger contingent of students now who have the dual diagnosis. Right, like having ADHD and also having gifted as a part of their IEPs. And so, you're seeing like this kind of mixed bag of a situation. And it's interesting that the adults might have attempted to challenge you. But in that same time period, you might not have felt like you had the support you needed. René: I did feel like I didn't have the support I need. I'm glad you brought that up because, when they designate a child as gifted — or at least I've been out of the school system for quite some time right now, but in my experience — it was like, "You're gifted, why don't you just do these things?" And it wasn't that simple. Julian: Right. It's never that simple. It's never that simple. René, I want our listeners also to hear about how, in your lifetime, you were diagnosed with ADHD three different times: when you were seven, when you were 11, and when you were 25. Can you talk about that? How did that come about? René:What happened? Yes. Julian:Yeah. For real? What? What happened? René:The stigma was the real issue for me. My mom was not having it at seven. She knew people who were being put on meds and according to her, these children were like zombies and it just wasn't something that she was willing to entertain for me. For some reason, she equated having ADHD with having to be medicated, and she was not trying to hear or learn anything about ADHD at that point. So, when the second time came around and of course, in middle school, they caught it because there's such a difference between the way you handle a middle school child versus how you handle an elementary school child. There I am trying to deal with a locker and making it to classes on time and getting the homework done and dealing with those different sorts of responsibilities. And they evaluated me for it again and were like, "Hey, she has it. And she, again was like, "Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with my child. She's in gifted and talented classes." She took me to my then pediatrician and the pediatrician said, "She's bored, give her more responsibility," which we know now is absolutely the wrong thing to do. And so, there I was, surrounded by support, but it wasn't the right kind of support. There were people in my corner who genuinely wanted me to succeed, but they weren't going about it the right way. Julian:And so, how did you come to being 25 and where did that come into play? René: So at 25, I was working at a job that I loved. And then one day the novelty wore off and I just couldn't do it anymore. And I got really depressed and took some mental health leave from work. And I was laying on the couch at my therapist's office one day, and I just so happened to mention, "Yeah, they thought I had ADHD back in the 90s, but my doctor just said to give me more work." And my therapist stopped me in the middle of a session and sent me down the hallway to book with the ADHD specialists who worked in her practice. And the rest is all she wrote. That's how we ended up here. Because she saw what kind of help I needed and sent me to a person who could help me. Julian: Wow. René:It was an accident. Julian:Well, nothing's ever by accident. I'm a firm believer that things happen in the time and space that they're supposed to happen. You know, one, I want to applaud you for being really clear about your story. I know that it's not easy to share how this journey, it took a long time to get to a place where you finally felt like you got the diagnosis that you needed. I'm interested to know, you know, just thinking about all those different time periods — whether it was at seven, 11 and 25 and even now — what do you think the type of help was that you needed? Like, what kind of help do you think would have been helpful for you? René: Someone who knew about ADHD sitting there with me, teaching me about the way that my brain worked. Because instead of internalizing messages about how my brain works differently and I needed different tools, I internalized things like "I was lazy," "I was careless," "I was not willing to apply myself to do the work." Because when they said those things, of course I was trying my hardest to get those things done right and didn't know why I couldn't. Julian:And so, now that you got that diagnosis, you went down the hallway. You got the diagnosis. What does help look like now? René:Oh, help now looks like being able to call somebody and just say, "Hey, I'm having a hard time getting through this. Can you sit with me on the phone while I work through this thing that I'm struggling with?" or saying, "Hey, mom" — who is one of my biggest supporters and always has been — I don't want to make it seem like she wasn't before. She just was misguided in the way that she gave the support. But I can call her now and say, "Hey, you know, I've got this thing coming up. I need a reminder call ma. Can you go ahead and call me back in an hour and just make sure I'm off doing the thing?" Or I know that I need to set those things up for myself. So, for our appointment today, I have a reminder that goes off at an hour before, 30 minutes before, 15 minutes before, or five minutes before I'm at the time up. That sounds excessive, but I can get caught up in whatever else it is that I might be doing until it's time to meet up with you and never make the meeting, because time blindness will take me away. So, it's knowing what works for me now. Julian: So this new René that got the treatment, this new René that got the support. Did it feel liberating to finally have some answers? René:It felt liberating, and it also felt incredibly frustrating because I didn't have to go through some of the things that I went through. Some of those meetings with teachers were embarrassing. Like, I used to crochet in class because it helped me concentrate, and my mom caught wind of it and was so mad at me. Some of the teachers were so... Julian:Mad for crochet? René: They were. That was a scandal. That was quite a meeting that we had, and it was an innocent thing and it helped me concentrate. Julian:So, I have an eight-year-old daughter and she just learns how to crochet, and I've probably spent about $200 at Michael's in the last couple of weeks because we keep getting yarn, and she uses crocheting as a way to help her focus too. René, I got to be honest with you, I am sitting here. I'm just really digging everything I'm learning about you. I think you're an incredible person, and what I admire the most is how you've chosen to take your experiences as a black woman with ADHD, and you could have just kept it to yourself, but you decided, "No, let me let me create a community. Let me get people together." And I think especially for our folks, that's something that we do. We bring people together. And there's so many of our black women out there looking for answers, like trying to figure out what can they do. And you found some. And so you decided, let me share my knowledge with others. So, can you tell our listeners all about Black Girl, Lost Keys and the motivation behind it? Which, by the way, the road trip episode, folks. Amazing. Dope dope dope dope dope. My favorite one, but I digress. Let's go into Black Girl, Lost Keys. Tell us about it. René: So, I started Black Girl, Lost Keys in 2014 because I was looking, when I got diagnosed, for a resource with black and brown people at the head of it, and there was nothing. And that was in 2009. So around 2014, I was looking for it again and there was nothing. And I've always been a good writer. Like I said, the English department dragged me through high school. And so, I thought, if there's nothing here, then what I lack in knowledge, I can learn more. But there needs to be something here. There needs to be somebody sharing their experience. Because this is bananas. Julian:It is bananas. René: So, I decided to start it because there was no one out there talking about the black and brown experience. And it just seemed a shame. And I'm — you know, I don't consider myself to be the only black experience that I could talk about — but I'm pretty average black woman living in America. And if there was nothing and I've got the talent to write, it only made sense that I take it and use it to help the other people around me so at least there was something so they didn't feel like they were all by themselves. And so after I started that, little by little, I built it into an audience that, oh gosh, there's a ton of followers now. There was nobody at first. I used to write about everything that came to mind, and now I mainly focus on teaching other people different things about ADHD and the common challenges. So, it's a little bit less about my life and more about their lives and what they might need. Julian: Got it. What do you think is your proudest portion of Black Girl, Lost Keys? Like, out of all the experiences you had through the writing, through the podcast, through the digital resources, and all that. What are you most proud of? René: I'm just proud that I was able to do it at all. But if I had to pick a moment that I was most proud — not last year, but the year before — I got to fly to Dallas, Texas and give a keynote speech for the International ADHD Conference, and I got a chance to bring my mom there. They wanted me to do an hour speech. I did it in 20 minutes and there was not a dry eye in the house by the time I got finished speaking, and it was just... to be able to do that with my mom there. Julian: With mom there. That's that's full circle right there, right? René:What's even more full circle, and another thing that I'm proud of is that my mother was diagnosed with ADHD. She has it. Julian: Wow.René: Can you believe it? Julian: Wow, that is wild. I mean, and again, you know, things work in the way that they're supposed to work. And I just think it's amazing that you've been able to use your platform and share so much information. And people don't realize when it's coming from somebody that's living it and experiencing it, It just hits different. As a black woman, especially, there's a certain language in a way that black women can only communicate with other black women. So, the fact that you've chosen this platform to communicate, I just applaud that, I applaud that. René:Thank you. Julian: And I'm so glad that you've chosen to do it. For our listeners, I'm wondering, are there any resources that you've found that are super helpful? Just, you know, some quick things that you'd like to share that anybody could reference? René: Yeah, for sure. If you're living with a child or you yourself have ADHD, there's CHADD (that's Children and Adults with ADHD), and if you are an adult with ADHD there's ADDA (that's adults with ADD). Both of those are nonprofit resources that exist and are solely there to help people with ADHD. They both have groups. They both have webinars, all kinds of things to put information right at your fingertips and help. Julian: So, we heard that's CHADD and ADDA, CHADD and ADDA. We'll make sure to link those in the show notes. Thinking about the shared experience of being a black woman with ADHD, something that you also did is you created a support system that really impacted you, because you weren't doing this by yourself. And you've been able to create this system. And I know that so many of our listeners out there — especially, you know, our black moms are parents of black children with ADHD out there or our teachers of black children that are out there — they're wondering, what's the first step in building these support systems that you were able to create? What do you think is one of the first steps that people should take? René: Honesty. Julian: Honesty. Say more about that. Say more about that. René: Because a lot of people come into this and they don't want to admit that they have the ADHD, or they don't want to admit that they need as much support as they actually need, or they don't want to be honest about the type of support that they need. You can't get help until you are clear about articulating the kind of help you need. Does that make sense? Julian: 100%. The first step is always admit that there's something going on. I don't want to label ADHD a problem. It's a difference. It's admitting that there is a difference happening and that extra or different support might be needed. That's the important part. René: And that difference is causing problems for us. So, it's OK to say that ADHD isn't the problem, but the challenges that it can throw in our way is definitely problematic from time to time. Julian: Exactly. On this podcast, we talk about the stigma of ADHD and other learning and thinking differences in the black community and how, especially with the older generation — your mother and my mother, probably similar age-groups — there's a very specific experience that the older generation had with special education. And how we have to reclaim what we rightfully deserve, which is a high quality education that includes all of the accommodations and modifications that come with having a learning and thinking difference. I think this work that you're doing is unpacking some of the stigma that goes along with it, and empowering black women specifically, and embracing all of the learning and thinking differences that are out there. René: Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to do. Just make a space where everybody could feel comfortable and come talk. Julian: Now, any resources specifically that you mentioned CHADD and ADDA, but anything specifically that — and again, I say my podcast in general, we specifically focus on the intersection of race and special education — for you, any specific resources that are most effective in helping black and brown kids with ADHD to navigate and thrive? René: Let's see. There's people doing that work now. There's a lady named Torrian Timms. She runs a place called Sistas With ADHD, that supports. My friend Inger. She runs the page Black Women With ADHD, that supports as well. And there's a friend of mine — I'll see if I can get you that info, because she's a coach that works with children specifically — and I want to make sure I've got her information right. Julian: Well, please shout them all out because we'll link as many resources as possible. I think it's really important that any time we have a platform, we call out all the positivity that's happening across the country. And that we're not working in silos. We're all working together with the same desire to build positive outcomes for our children. And so, everybody that you know is doing good work. Let's make sure we shine them out and make sure that we inform our listeners who they are. René: Oh, it will be a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Julian: René, I could talk to you all day long. I wish I could, but they give me a time limit on this. So, I just wanted to say a big thank you. I just appreciate you. I appreciate the work you're doing. I appreciate the journey that you've gone on. I appreciate your candid honesty. It's not easy getting on a stranger's podcast and sharing your life story, but you chose to do that, and I cannot be more grateful. So before I go, I just wanted to again extend my extreme gratitude for you to join us. Thank you. René: Thank you. It's been a real pleasure, Julian, and I'm so glad that we were able to push through and get this thing recorded. Julian: Listeners, OG family. Before we go, I want to make sure that we share a few resources with everybody. First, please check out — and I'm being serious, I'm a big fan of this podcast myself — René Brooks' podcast. It's called Life With Lost Keys, and it is hilarious. It is a great listen. I could listen to it all day. She's a much better podcast host than I am. So, check it out please. Also, follow her on social media @Blackgirllostkeys. You can follow her on social media @Blackgirllostkeys. She also referenced CHADD and ADDA, and Understood will have a host of resources on our episode page that relate to ADHD. René Brooks, thank you so much. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks, edited by Daniella Tello-Garzon. llana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show for the Understood Podcast Network. Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Our Community Weighs In: 20 Things Parents Wish People Knew About ADHD
No one knows your child better than you do. And in our Facebook community, families were eager to offer what they wish other people knew about parenting a child with ADHD.Here’s what they shared.“The hardest thing about ADHD is that it’s ‘invisible’ to outsiders. It’s not like other conditions that people can clearly see. People just assume that we are not being good parents and that our child is a brat, when they don’t have an idea how exhausted we truly are.” —Sara C.“Kids with ADHD have to work very hard to achieve a grade most would consider mediocre. When I congratulate my son for getting a 75 (and of course discuss why he got the answers wrong that he did), it’s because I know the hard work it took to achieve that passing grade.” —Michele A.“Having a high IQ or being intelligent does not mean ADHD is not a disability. The fallacy that a gifted or bright student shouldn’t need accommodations or an IEP needs to stop. The family is not using it as a crutch and neither is the student.” —Yolanda T.“Kids have a lot of gifts from their ADHD: unending creativity, thinking outside the box, energy, enthusiasm and passion about their interests. —Carmen J.“One thing I wish others without a child with ADHD understood is the hours of research and education it takes to understand your own child and what they have to learn to deal with daily.” —Leslie A.“When people learn that our 8-year-old is medicated you can just see the judgment in their eyes. It was not an easy choice to make and it took many, many months to come to that conclusion.” —Loriel S.“I understand you can be judged if you put your child on medication. But we’re judged by some because we have chosen NOT to medicate. I think whether you use prescription medication or not, someone will judge you.” —Gayla P.“Yes, my child does need this medication. And no, she won’t outgrow it!” —Diane B.“Just because you didn’t see these disorders when you where growing up doesn’t mean they weren’t happening. Kids with ADHD then were just called ‘awkward’ and ‘a handful.’” —Lori W.“We can’t ‘just let him stay up late’ for something special, because sleep is critical to his well-being. Our son has a hard enough time settling down at bedtime and every minute of good sleep is precious.” —Jessica F.“Yes, my son scores well on multiple-choice exams and can regurgitate information like a scholar. But he still has trouble remembering to do simple things like pack his lunch or put homework into his backpack and turn it in!” —Dana B.“It’s exhausting. He’s awesome, but sometimes thinking for two, three or four people is exhausting.” —Rita C.“This does get better. My 17-year-old is wonderful now. He still has issues but understands how his body works and how to control it.” —Leah C.“I wish people simply knew that ADHD is so much more than just ‘being hyper.’ I’m so tired of hearing, ‘He’ll grow out of it,’ ‘All boys are active,’ and ‘Well, have you tried (insert condescending suggestion here).’” —Shanna S.“Kids won't ‘outgrow’ ADHD. They will learn to cope with it, and accommodate it, with A LOT of hard work on their part and my part. But it is something that they will struggle with for the rest of their lives.” —Heather C.“Some families spend years in a heartbreaking search for what is causing so much inner turmoil in their child, for what causes their child to be incredibly loving one day and just hateful the next; what is causing their child who is so bright to not be able to grasp why they can’t run out into the road. This struggle for answers takes years and evaluation upon evaluation. And we’re all so tired.” —Laura R.“The way I handle my child’s behavior may look permissive to you, but constantly scolding does nothing but hurt self-esteem. I know what I’m doing and I don’t need an onlooker’s approval.” —Bridget P.“Even close family members don’t understand. They think that my daughter is just spoiled. They don’t spend countless hours reading and researching and trying different things to find what works and what doesn’t.” —Crystal A.“Unless you are a medical doctor or a licensed therapist, I don’t care what you think is wrong or how to fix it. If you are going to spout something you heard, please let me know what peer-reviewed journal you got your information from. Or at least what a licensed medical doctor or therapist actually told YOU. Not what they told your sister. Or your friend.” —Meghan M.“Continue to embrace the uniqueness in YOU, yours and all!” —Janet H.These comments from parents came as a response to one mom’s emotional take on what she wishes others knew about parenting a child with ADHD. Join the discussion by commenting below. You can also connect with other parents of kids with ADHD in our online community groups.
- In It
Dyscalculia, more than “bad at math”
When it’s time to split a bill or calculate a tip, lots of people confess to “not being a math person.” But when does struggling with math mean something more?When it’s time to split a bill or calculate a tip, lots of people confess to “not being a math person.” But when does struggling with math mean something more?On this week’s show, hosts Lexi Walters Wright and Amanda Morin discuss dyscalculia, a specific learning disability in math. Expert Daniel Ansari, PhD, explains why kids with dyscalculia have trouble understanding number-related concepts, like time and directions.We also spend time with Lily, a teen with dyscalculia. We hear how math challenges pop up at expected times — like when she makes grilled cheese sandwiches for her family.And of course we hear from callers about their experiences with dyscalculia and why being “bad at math” often gets overlooked.Related resourcesUnderstanding dyscalculia10 surprising ways dyscalculia impacts kidsMath anxiety vs. dyscalculia: Comparing the signsVideo: Why is dyslexia diagnosed more often than dyscalculia?What “I’m not a math person” means to meEpisode transcriptAmanda Morin: Hey, "In It" listeners. Before we get started today, we have a small but important ask: Please take our quick survey about who you are, what you like about our show so far, and what you want to hear more of. Head to U.org/podcast. Take a three-minute survey — really just three minutes. That's U dot org slash podcast. And thanks. Your input means so much. Amanda: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin, a writer for Understood.org and parent of kids with learning and thinking differences. Lexi Walters Wright: And I'm Lexi Walters Wright, community manager for Understood.org. And we are "In It." "In It" is a podcast from Understood for Parents. On our show, we offer support and practical advice for families whose kids are struggling with speech and language, executive functioning, and other learning and thinking differences. Amanda: Today, we're talking about helping our kids who struggle with math — like really struggle with math. Lily: So sometimes when I'm doing a certain problem, my brain — it just kind of gets stuck. Amanda: This is Lily. She's 13, and she's had a hard time with math for as long as she can remember. Lexi: Amanda, lots of people have a hard time with math. I definitely did as a kid, and I still clam up the moment I need to calculate a tip. I know some adults who feel allergic to Excel documents. Amanda: So you've met me and my Excel document allergy. And lots of us have those moments. That's called "math anxiety." But what Lily's dealing with is different. It's a learning disability often called dyscalculia, which you'll hear pronounced in a number of different ways. No matter which way you hear pronounced, you can sort of still hear the word "calculate" in there. And dyscalculia, at its most basic, is about difficulty with number sense — adding, multiplication — and sometimes visual-spatial skills things, like where you don't know left from right very easily. Lexi: The thing is, compared to something like dyslexia, dyscalculia is not widely known. So it can leave kids like Lily, who have it, feeling dumb. Lily: Yeah. I just kind of thought that I was bad at math, until I was 12. Amanda: We're going to hear more from Lily in a bit, and from her mom, Tracie. Lexi: But first, we asked you what dyscalculia looks like in your family. And here's what you had to say. Caller 1: For my daughter, when she was in elementary school, she really struggled with reading the clock, being on time for her classroom. Adding and subtracting is super difficult. And then math homework took hours and hours and caused a lot of anxiety. Caller 2: Long division — that was literally a nightmare. She just could not handle keeping track of every step and where to put each and every one of the numbers. Caller 3: A bigger trigger for us in noticing something was wrong, though, was his inability to connect with the idea of time and the passage of time. For him, everything was now. The idea of tomorrow or yesterday really didn't register for him at all. And when you started talking about longer spans of time, like weeks or months, he was just completely bewildered by that. Once he started kindergarten, he also really struggled with the idea of money. And while other kids were picking up the idea of penny, dime, quarter, or nickel, he couldn't associate the different values with those coins in any way. Amanda: So as we're hearing, Lexi, dyscalculia can play out in many ways. Lexi: Yeah, this sounds like a very complicated topic. Amanda: It really is, and it's not exactly my specialty. So we're turning to someone else to help us really get a grasp of what it's all about. Lexi: First I have to ask your professional opinion: Is it dis-CAL-coo-li-a? Dis-cal-CYOO-li-a? What do you say? Daniel Ansari: I say developmental dis-cal-CYOO-li-a. But you know, people vary in the way they pronounce it. Yeah. Amanda: Daniel Ansari is a professor of psychology and education at the University of Western Ontario in Canada. He studies how children develop numerical and mathematical skills — and why for some children it can be such a struggle. Lexi: Daniel says there are other names for dyscalculia, like math learning disability or mathematics disorder. Daniel: I think they can be used pretty much interchangeably, because they point to the same thing. I find dyscalculia useful because we hear so much about dyslexia. The contrast to dyslexia helps, I think, some people to better understand what it is. Lexi: And how would you explain dyscalculia to someone who's never heard of it before? Daniel: I would say dyscalculia is a severe difficulty in acquiring basic numerical and mathematical skills. Being able to judge which of two numbers is numerically larger. They will also have great difficulties in learning their math facts. Lexi: Daniel says that long after their peers have figured out which two numbers add up to 10 and they can do simple calculations in their head, kids with dyscalculia may still be counting on their fingers. And sure, that makes math class tricky. But dyscalculia doesn't just shut off when kids walk in the door from school. Lily: I guess I'll just make my grilled cheese. Lexi: That's 13-year-old Lily again. She lives in Kansas City, Missouri. She has an older sister, a younger brother, and a pet guinea pig, Fezzy, who is named after Fezzik from "The Princess Bride." Amanda: Lily and her mom said it was OK to come to her house to see what dyscalculia looks like for her. Lexi: It comes up when she's doing her math homework, but also when she's trying to make lunch for the family. Lily: I have to put the butter in here and melt it in the microwave so it doesn't take forever. Amanda: When you're making a grilled cheese sandwich, you're probably not thinking about all the steps it requires. But for people with dyscalculia, going through a long sequence of steps in a row can be a real challenge. Lily: First you have to do this, then you have to do this, and it just kind of makes my brain tired. Lexi: Lily was diagnosed with dyscalculia two years ago. Before that, she just knew that math was really hard for her — which was confusing, because reading and writing have always come easily to her. Lily: I can read like a 300-page book in less than a day. Lexi: But Lily's math troubles go back as far as first grade. Lily: So a really long time ago, when I was having trouble with even addition, it just took so long — just takes longer for my brain to calculate things. Amanda: She understands that about herself now. But when she was younger, those math struggles made her really upset. Lily: I would usually cry about it, because that's what I do. Yeah, and I'd yell, because I was just so mad that I couldn't get it right. And then I'd kind of start thinking about like, "Oh, other people can do this, so why can't I?" Tracie (Lily's mom): She would say things to me those times when she was upset. Amanda: That's Tracie, Lily's mom. Tracie: And I won't repeat them because they're not true. But just really down on herself, and that no mom wants to hear her daughter, who is, you know, at that point 10, 11, to have that view of herself, you know, it's starting to go into all areas. And I didn't want her to think that just because there is a struggle in one area that means that she's an awful person. Lexi: All this was hard on Tracie, too. Tracie: I can remember one instance where she brought home a math paper and it was, you know, she had gotten like half of them wrong. I just felt so deflated because 45 minutes a night we were spending on math. And I just thought "Oh my gosh," you know. And then getting the next chapter's homework and I'm like, "Wait a minute, we're not getting it." And I kind of thought, "What is this going to look like in two or three years?" Lexi: Tracie had studied to become an elementary school teacher. And while it was never her plan to homeschool Lily, she and her husband decided that might be best. Amanda: So now Tracie was the one trying to teach Lily math. But no matter how hard they worked on it, it didn't seem to be getting any easier. Tracie: I just kept telling myself "I haven't found the right curriculum yet." So we would start with something that was new, and I would get really, really excited, like "We are going to get through this hurdle. The answer is going to be in the curriculum." And then after a couple months, we're still stuck in the same — in the same place. And I think both of us were kind of feeling — we would get very emotional, not just with each other but... I know I would cry and worry about, you know, are we ever... what's this going to be like for her, you know, as she's an adult. Because that's what moms do — we always go to that place. So, you know, it just felt like, you know, August rolls around every year and I'd have hope, and then by October that feeling in my gut would sink. You know, I would just think, "Oh gosh here we go again." Lexi: Even though she's an educator, Tracie had never heard of dyscalculia. She says she came across it while reading up on dyslexia online. Tracie: And then I went down the rabbit hole. So it was all new to me. Amanda: For Lily, discovering there was such a thing as a math disorder was a big deal. Lily: It was a relief knowing that there was really nothing wrong, and that I just need to learn differently. Like I had always worried that once I got to adulthood, I wouldn't be able to do things because I was so bad at math. Amanda: Lily started working with an educational therapist — a specialist who's trained in working with kids with learning and thinking differences. Together they figured out techniques to make math easier and more accessible for her. Lily: Once I started going to Mrs. McCormick's and I started figuring things out, I realized that with more work I could go into a store and be like, "Hey, 20 percent off — this means I can get this for so much," and not have to think about it so much. Amanda: Daniel, can you talk a little bit about some of those methods that can help children learn math? Daniel: Yeah. I mean, there's no proven method for, you know, for helping somebody with developmental dyscalculia. But I think it's good educational principles that run across different educational subjects, such as giving students who struggle more time, repeating things more often, providing them with opportunities to strengthen their basic understanding of numbers. Making sure that they understand that, for example, the Arabic numeral 5 represents all possible sets of five objects. That's quite an abstract thing to understand, and it may take children with math difficulties more time to learn. Amanda: So like five means five cookies and five blocks and five more minutes and... so five means five, right? Daniel: Exactly. Lexi: Tracie tells us they've found some really effective ways to work with Lily on math. Tracie: So one of the things that we found was when she was first tackling things like multiplication, that what worked best for her was to have some manipulatives, so that she could touch it, move it around. Lexi: Wait. Amanda, what are manipulatives? Amanda: So manipulatives are when you use objects that you can move around in order to connect those abstract ideas of groups, sets, or patterns to visuals, so you can actually see and, well, manipulate the numbers. Lexi: Got it. Tracie: And a dry erase board worked wonders for calculations. And we still use that because erasing is really fast and it's not so labor intensive when you make a mistake. And that's kind of what — it's OK to make a mistake, it's OK to struggle — so we just wipe it away and start fresh. Lexi: So here's one game Lily learned to work on visual-spatial skills. On a chalkboard, Tracie draws a figure 8. Tracie: It's not too wonky, is it? Lily: No, it looks fine. Amanda: Then Lily starts tracing over it. Tracie: Left, right, ready, begin. Amanda: As she traces left, she has to say left. As she traces right, she says right. Lexi: And then her mom starts firing off questions. Math questions or something else related to numbers. Tracie: When's your birthday? Lily: Right. March 21st. Left. Tracie: When is my birthday? Lily: Right. I think it's May 9th. Left. Tracie: Oh no! Lily: Sorry! Is it May 7th? Tracie: Yes. Lily: OK. Sorry. Amanda: It's that combination of keeping multiple things in our working memory that she's developing there. Some of that's a muscle memory thing, where Lily is learning to recognize the feeling of going left with where left is, and the feeling of going right with where right is. But some of it's about being able to access that information quickly while there are other things going on in the background. So for example, if she were going to start driving, she'd need to be able to listen to the GPS and know right and left automatically. That's the kind of thing this is starting to work on for her. Lexi: Another thing they do to help Lily is to put lots of number-related information around the house. Tracie: See that up there? It's on our chalkboard. We have all of the squared numbers — one times one equals on, two times two equals four — to give her an anchor. So if she's got six times eight and she's stuck and she can't remember, she has six times six to go off of. And then she can do the math from there. She has a multiplication chart, too. It's the multiplication table, one through 12. And I give that to her any time that she needs it. Just the more she can see them visually, the better it's going to stick in her head. Lexi: Lily has made incredible progress in the last two years. But some things are still hard for her, like going to the store. Lily: So I'm kind of trying to work on that, and sometimes I think it's more of a — I don't know — fear of social issue. But paying is a little hard for me. Yeah. So the store is kind of one of the main places. Tracie: One of the things that I notice is when there's a lot of people and she's in line, that's kind of off-putting for her. You know the stress of "Oh my gosh, I have to do this and I have to do it fast." She doesn't want them to get mad at her. So I've noticed that. Caller 1: Now that my daughter is a teenager, dyscalculia looks a lot different. The things we struggle with are helping her manage her money, so her wallet is a complete disaster. There's bunches of dollars rolled up in it. There's too much change in there, because she struggles with continuing to add and subtract money, as well as to identify what the money denominations really are. Caller 4: The driving — a lot of times he would get lost, and that is a huge anxiety issue, because he would not know where he was, because he would try to follow somebody's directions of turning right or left. So I would teach him to look for landmarks, so that when he would call us and he was upset and didn't know where was and was mislocated, so we could determine his location. The GPS "find me" apps that we can put on a smartphone for tracking are really useful for that too. That's it. Thank you. Andrea Tudhope: Is there any advice that you would give to parents who are just learning that their child has dyscalculia or are going through some of what you guys have gone through? Lexi: That's Andrea, the reporter we sent to spend some time with Tracie and Lily. Tracie: I would just say to not worry so much about if your child is working at whatever grade level they're supposed to be in. Really, it's just important to have the master number sense and those things that are their struggle. And I know it's really hard to do that, because that's just not how — that's not how we operate with school. But it's just so important to meet them where they're at and to work on the things that they're struggling with, so that they can overcome those — so that they're not always a struggle. And just to be patient and trust the process. Amanda: Why isn't it more well-known? Why aren't math issues sort of more widely discussed the way dyslexia is? Daniel: I think, at least in the West, we have a tolerance for being bad at math. It's not something that people feel shy about admitting. I often — when I meet new people and they ask me what I do, and I tell them, you know, "I do research into math learning difficulties," it's like, "Oh my God, I wish I'd met you when I was young." Amanda: I think we have this conception that math doesn't — sometimes doesn't matter. You always use our smartphone or a calculator. But how do we use it in everyday life? Daniel: We use numbers all the time without actually thinking about the fact that we're using numerical information. Just think about waking up in the morning, and let's say you open your computer or you look at your smartphone, and you look at your favorite news site. You're immediately processing numerical information. You go to your office, you look at your bank statement, you're trying to understand the transactions, you're trying to understand how it is that you've got this balance, and you're trying to add up the different expenditures and things that came into your account. Again you need numerical information. Lexi: So Amanda, imagine — say 10 or 15 years from now — that dyscalculia is as well-known and as readily diagnosed as dyslexia is. That could really bring about a profound shift in how parents and educators respond to students with math disorders. Amanda: Totally. And you know we're still getting there with dyslexia and ADHD. If we get there with dyscalculia, it would probably also bring about a profound shift in how those students think about themselves. According to Tracie, that seems to be the case with Lily. Tracie: I know her therapist and I always say, "You can't say you're bad at math anymore — you can say it's a challenge and that you work harder at it than some people." We try to say that repeatedly to her, so that that internal dialogue changes. And so when she does come against the struggle again with math, to not have that initial reaction of, "Oh I'm really bad at this." To just stop and say, "This is hard. I need to fall back on, you know, the strategies that I use in order to figure this out." Lexi: As her sense of her abilities has shifted, Lily's gotten more confident in other areas too — like cooking. In fact, she has become something of a grilled cheese expert. Lily: It usually takes less time to cook on the other side than it does the first side, because the pan's already hot and all that. So yeah, it should probably only be about three more minutes. Amanda: And she offers these words of wisdom, which I fully support. Lily: If you use a lot of butter, it's better. Like that's the secret to a good grilled cheese: butter. Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," a podcast from Understood for Parents. Our website is Understood.org, where you can find all sorts of free resources for people raising kids with learning and thinking differences. Lexi: We also want to hear what you think of our show. "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/podcast to share your thoughts and also to find resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot o r g slash podcast.Amanda: We heard from several of you after "Episode 2: How to Deal With 'Is ADHD Real?'" And we wanted to play some of your awesome voice memos to let you know we are listening. Caller 5: I'm calling about the question of "Is ADHD real?" It's hard for me to sometimes respond to that question because I feel I don't have the emotional energy or the courage to do that. And then I realize that if I don't, I'm putting it on my first-grade son to be the one to have to respond to that as he gets older, and that's not fair to him. But I also feel like it shouldn't be just on the parents of children with ADHD to answer that question, and that schools and pediatricians and all the people that are important part of children's lives need to do a better job of communicating what is ADHD and what are other forms of learning differences and attention issues and disabilities. So it's not just on the individual to negotiate that, to be the ones to explain themselves. Amanda: Please keep your voice memos coming. This is, after all, a show for and about families like yours — and mine. If you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Maybe share it with your child's math teacher even. You can also go to Apple podcasts and rate us, which is a great way to let other people know about "In It." Lexi: You can subscribe to "In It" on Apple podcasts, follow us on Spotify, or keep up with us however you listen to podcasts. Between episodes, you can find Understood on Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and YouTube. Or visit our website: U — that's the letter U — dot o r g. Amanda: Come back next episode when we'll be talking about the unique challenges of raising kids who are gifted and who have learning and thinking differences. Penny Williams: I mean, he was really severely affected by the fact that he couldn't meet expectations and that people didn't understand him. Lexi: If you have stories about raising twice-exceptional kids, you can call and leave a voice message that we just might use on the next episode of "In It." You'll find that number at U.org/podcast. Amanda: "In It" is a production of Understood for Parents. Our show is produced by Blake Eskin of Noun and Verb Rodeo, Julie Subrin, and Julia Botero. Mike Errico wrote our theme music, and Laura Kusnyer is our director of editorial content. Thanks also this week to reporter Andrea Tudhope. Lexi: And thanks to all of you for listening and for being in it with us.
When my mom suspected I might have ADHD, she did what a lot of parents do
Voices of the 1 in 5: Guest Post: So often, parents and families of children with learning and thinking differences feel alone on their journeys. At Understood, we’re building a community to change that. In the following guest post, Jessica McCabe shares her experience growing up with ADHD and outlines the challenges her mother navigated while seeking a diagnosis. She describes what it was like to finally have a name for her struggles — and to get the kind of support that she hopes more kids can have. When my mom suspected I might have ADHD, she did what a lot of parents doBy Jessica McCabe When my mom suspected I might have ADHD, she did what a lot of parents do: She took me to the doctor. He asked her some questions about my behavior (I was screaming a lot), heard that I was struggling in middle school (I forgot everything, including my locker combination, and I wasn’t completing assignments), and asked her how I’d done in elementary school. “She got straight A’s. She’s a gifted student.” To which he replied: “She can’t have ADHD.” To which she replied, “Thank you for your opinion. I’d like to see a specialist.” A lot of testing later, I was diagnosed with ADHD. (It was called ADD at the time; my current diagnosis is ADHD-combined presentation.) I was prescribed stimulant medication, which helped a lot. My GPA went up a full point without me doing anything differently (other than completing assignments, which I was magically able to do). I felt the same way I did when I put on glasses for the first time: I could focus. And I felt good about having a name for my struggles, because it meant it wasn’t just me. There was a reason I was struggling. I wasn’t just a bad kid, which I honestly felt like at the time. My mom challenged the doctor’s opinion because by that time she was at her wits’ end with me. Enough had happened all in the same year — a change in schools, a traumatic car accident, hormonal changes — that my symptoms had become obvious and problematic. But what if they hadn’t? Like a lot of girls with ADHD, I flew under the radar so long because my symptoms were more internalized. I wasn’t racing around the classroom, I just had racing thoughts and speech. While my brother was throwing things through windows, I was just staring out the window. I struggled to regulate my attention and my emotions, but my struggles were less visible. Easier to shrug off. Easier to consider “not that big a deal.” Until I got to middle school and started struggling to get to class on time. Until I was still having regular meltdowns at 12 years old. Until hormones exacerbated my emotional dysregulation to the point that I was screaming at my mom every day. My symptoms really hadn’t seemed that unusual or even that bad. Who cares if I forget my jacket at school or got distracted while the teacher was talking? It happens. Except, for me, it happened a lot. A LOT a lot. By the time I was diagnosed with ADHD, a lot of my core beliefs about myself had already formed. I was messy. Spacy. Flaky. Forgetful. Irresponsible. Weird. The immediate impact of my ADHD wasn’t apparent. But from the research we have on women and ADHD, we know that there are significant long-term effects. And the sooner we get the support we need, the better. Thankfully, medical professionals are becoming better educated about ADHD. And organizations like Understood are creating tools and resources to help parents understand what to look for. Take N.O.T.E. is such an important tool because symptoms aren’t always easy to pick up on. Not everyone has the blessing (curse?) of having trauma, hormone shifts, and increases on executive function demands happen all at once, making the invisible struggle of internalized ADHD suddenly very, VERY visible.And even if symptoms are obvious, it can be hard to know what to make of them.Not every mom is a special education teacher who can recognize when something isn’t developmentally appropriate. Not every parent knows how to insist on getting a second opinion when a doctor says there’s nothing wrong. I’m hoping that extra guidance from tools like Take N.O.T.E.® will help a lot more children with ADHD get the support they need, sooner.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia gave me problem-solving powers — and a career in politics
Robert Carroll grew up with resources that helped him with dyslexia. Now, he’s an Assembly member who wants to give every child that opportunity. Robert Carroll, a New York State Assembly member, has dyslexia. He was born and raised in the district he represents, the 44th Assembly District in Brooklyn. Growing up with dyslexia helped make Robert an independent, out-of-the-box thinker. Sometimes it was hard for him to read or think the “right” way, so he learned to see things differently.After law school, Robert dived into the world of politics, a field that requires a lot of technical reading and writing. But he thrives in the work through a combination of good ideas and delegation. In this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, Robert talks about how he had the privilege of going to schools that helped him work with his dyslexia. Now he advocates for policies that allow all kids to get that same support, even if their families don’t have the resources his family did.Related resourcesDyslexia laws: What they are and how they workVideo: Gavin Newsom opens up about his dyslexiaA day in the life of an employee with dyslexiaEpisode transcriptRobert: That, for better or for worse, is something that I think, you know, dyslexic children learn very, very quickly is to how to solve problems for themselves. And I think it's our job as adults to try to, you know, accentuate the positive and limit the negative and to make sure that, you know, those kids have, you know, the supports they need and the education they need so that they can really thrive and be unbelievably successful in whatever they choose to do. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. We hear a lot about national politics, but we often don't acknowledge the impact that state and local laws have on our daily lives. My next guest is New York Assembly Member Robert Carroll. He represents the 44th District in Brooklyn at the state house in Albany, and he's co-sponsored and written several bills related to education, literacy, and dyslexia. For Assembly Member Carroll, it's personal. He was diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age. Now, he's taking his own experience to help students with dyslexia across New York State. We talk to him from his bustling office in Brooklyn in the middle of a thunderstorm, so you might hear some rain during this one. Hi, Robert. Thank you so much for talking to me today. Robert: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Eleni: Yeah. So, I thought a good place to start is, you know, just naming the fact that I did not grow up in the States. So, I don't really know that much about local politics, and I'm sure that people that did grow up here might even have the same issues. So, could you just tell me a little bit about what your position is in government, what your district looks like, and, you know, what a typical day might look like for you? Robert: I'm a New York State Assembly member. I represent the 44th Assembly District in the New York State Legislature, of which there are 150 members of the New York State Legislature, each coming from a different district from around the state. The districts are approximately 140,000 people. As I think people are seeing in America, more and more, so much of the important work and so many of the rights that so many hold dear in our country really are done at the state level in so many ways. And so, it's great to be able to represent a part of Brooklyn that I grew up in and that lots of my family members still live in and good friends. And so, I've been doing this for almost six years now. Eleni: What led to you becoming an assembly member? How did you kind of get here? Robert: My family was always very civically engaged. From a young age, I was very much attuned with what was going on right here in Brooklyn, as well as just kind of politically generally. And so, you know, after I graduated law school, I was very active in Brooklyn politics and civic life here in Brooklyn. And the then assembly member had decided to retire. And so, I ran against two other people in the Democratic primary and won that. And then I won the general election as well. But it's a very, very democratic area. So, it was really the Democratic primary was the main event, so to speak. Eleni: You know, in a previous conversation, we heard from you that, you know, you have dyslexia, and you also really like to talk. Do you want to talk a little bit about how that might have influenced your career exploration at all, or even your interests or hobbies?Robert: Struggling with dyslexia as a child let me know full well that not only are there many ways to skin a cat, but that those who say they know best, those who say that they are experts, are oftentimes wrong, and oftentimes, you know, don't see the full picture and that things can be deceiving. And so, it made me a little contrarian. It made me a little bit of somebody who every once in a while doubted things. And I, you know, it definitely gave me kind of a perspective on the world from a very, very young age. Eleni: How do you think that influenced, like your values and your politics and like the work that you do now and the things that you advocate for? Robert: You know, what I realized as a child was "Just because you learn differently or think differently doesn't mean that therefore you are in some way less than someone else." And so, you know, what I would say is that it made me very much a free and independent thinker, but a thinker that also is rooted deeply in facts. You know, one of the things that I think lots of young people struggle with, lots of families I see struggle with is, you know, reading and writing or these kind of initial indicators so often of a child's academic achievement and intelligence. And, you know, there's lots of folks to this day, you know, who roll their eye at dyslexia. They roll their eyes and say that, you know, they don't believe in it. They think that it's mumbo jumbo. They think that it's false and that, and of course, you know, at first blush, you might say, "Well, just a second." Of course, the most gifted children — to use a phrase that they might use — well, of course, they're going to be the kids who are the earliest readers when if you scratch a little bit deeper, if you actually look a little bit more critically, of course, life doesn't pass that out, right? Yeah. There are some people who are phenomenally, learned, read very early on and the such and are phenomenally gifted and talented people and have done amazing things for our society. But of course, just the reverse is true as well as we've had phenomenally gifted people in every walk of life who have not. Just because a young person is struggling to learn how to read when they're six or seven, doesn't mean that they don't have unbelievable amounts of talents and gifts, you know, academically and otherwise, that we should not be trying to foster and that we need to get them the education that they deserve. And stealing somebody's agency, because you don't give them that proper education, is a real crime to that person and has damaged so many people. And I was lucky not to have that happen to me. I was lucky that my parents had the resources and the means to get me an education. And so, I've dedicated a large part of my adult life to making sure that you don't have to be lucky or wealthy or privileged to get a proper education. Eleni: Yeah, 100%. And I think that's so important to think about, like, you know, like the effects of standardizing what intelligence looks like because it really does look different for every person. You've touched on a little bit about like, you know, your experience of school. Could you talk a little bit more about your experience? Like as a person with dyslexia, you know, what helped you through and how that's kind of contributed to the things that you're working towards now? Robert: Well, I mean, I think one of the big things, I think perseverance, right? And I think understanding that, you know, we're all going to face adversity and challenges. You know, dyslexic children, unfortunately, see that adversity very early on. It's not the hardest adversity anybody has ever faced, but it definitely presents itself very early on in a school setting. And I think that that can be unbelievably frustrating, but also allows for, you know, individuals to have a real grit and to become independent critical thinkers very early on. Because, of course, you know, all of us are just trying to survive. A young person, when they're faced with an obstacle and they need to figure out a way around it, well, if the more traditional way is not going to work for them, they're going to have to come up with unique ways to solve that problem. And I think one of the, you know, I'm reticent to generalize about dyslexia or neurodiversity. I think people are all very different, and my story is not the same as anybody else's story and vice versa. But I do think that, you know, when people like to talk about dyslexia being a gift, I think one of the places where you could really make that assertion is the fact that if you give a child, a young person, the proper support so that they can become a fluent and fluid reader and they don't have the kind of stigma or self-esteem issues that can then sometimes come with that if they've continually failed. They also have had to constantly approach problems in novel ways. And I think like in most things in life, I don't care what you're doing. I don't care if you're, you know, in government, in business and the arts and media, in the sciences, people are paying you or hiring you or electing you to solve novel problems, not to recite previous successes. And I do think that, you know, that for better or for worse is something that I think, you know, dyslexic children learn very, very quickly as to how to solve problems for themselves. And, you know, I think it's our job as adults to try to, you know, accentuate the positive and limit the negative and to make sure that, you know, those kids have, you know, the supports they need and the education they need so that they can really thrive and be unbelievably successful in whatever they choose to do. Eleni: Yeah. Thank you for going into all of that. I think it's, yeah, really interesting to think about, you know, how adversity impacts the way that you approach other aspects of life. And, you know, perseverance is a skill, not necessarily an innate thing. It's definitely like learned and can be taught and comes from experience. So, I totally understand where you're coming from there. For you personally, were there any particular interventions that made a big difference that helped you through that you kind of wish for other kids, like in a similar circumstance now? Robert: Oh, I mean, 100%. I mean, so, you know, I went to my local public school, P.S. 230, and I was a very chatty kid. And at the end of first grade, though, I couldn't spell my name or say the ABCs. And I was lucky enough to have a teacher who went to my parents and said, "Look, I, you know, I bet, you know, I bet my salary that he's dyslexic or he has dyslexia." And my parents had the means to go get me a neuro psych at Columbia University Medical School. And then I went to the Gateway School midway through the second grade, and I then went to the Windward School for middle school, and they saved my life. I would have never gone to law school. I would have never been able to do those things if I wasn't given those foundational skills by the time I was starting when I was seven years old. And so, you know, a lot of the work we do in the legislature is about how do we do early screening and identification of dyslexia, how do we bring in evidence-based supports, how do we start treating children as individuals? You know, so there's a lot of nonsense. You know, I lied, cheated, stole to get out of foreign language requirements, you know, I had to constantly advocate for things like, you know, extended time for, you know, the SAT or the bar exam and, you know, a bunch of the things that, you know, I think I want a school system that realizes that, "Look, there's lots of strengths and weaknesses out there." Some are much more easily identified, and some have very specific signs and symptoms and need specific remedies like dyslexia, and others are more amorphous.But what we need to do is we need to treat children like individuals. And we need to realize that, you know, it's a big, diverse world out there and we want them to interact with that big, diverse world. You know, it's an absurd thing to say, "Look, let me have a speed-reading contest with you." I do like to read. I read quite often. But yeah, if I took the bar exam and I didn't get time and a half, I don't know if I would have passed it on the first time. And look, you know, you want to take it without any time? I'm fine with that because I know the studies show that folks who are, you know, don't have dyslexia, who get extended time, their scores don't change. And folks who do have dyslexia, their scores change dramatically. And so, I definitely, I am dogmatic when it comes to that about identification and making sure that we're providing, you know, evidence-based curriculum in our schools. Eleni: Yeah, that's great. I know you just mentioned like a couple of things that could still come up for you, like, you know, reading speed and learning the language. Is there anything that you would like to share about the ways dyslexia kind of, you know, impacts your day-to-day and maybe what you do when challenges come up and how you advocate for yourself, and you share those things with like the people you work with?Robert: Look, I don't know, Spanish or Russian or Chinese or French. And I don't try to pretend that I do. I have a great team around me. I think we do things collaboratively a lot, and I think that that's really an important skill. There's not anything that I go, "Well, I don't do that." We write lots of newsletters and op-eds and bills here. I draft some of it, other people draft some of it, other people do this or that. I'm a much better persuasive writer than technical writer. You know, I would say that I probably write 80 or 90% of the op-eds that come out of our office that we publish. Some of the more technical writing, I would say, you know, gets done by staff. But, you know, all of it is very collaborative. You know, there are people in our lives who are overwhelmed by detail and are pedantic, and don't know how to get to the point. And some people would say that, you know, this is the secret strength of people who are successful dyslexics is kind of getting to the point and what are the things that matter? And, you know, I would definitely say that's something that speaks to me. Eleni: I think it's interesting to think about, you know, you mentioned, you know, one of your strengths might be like pulling out key points or like, you know, focusing in on like certain details. And I think what I love about this podcast is like everyone can kind of share where they are in personal experiences of dyslexia and other like thinking and learning differences, you know, where it does kind of like look and sound and kind of manifest differently for everyone. So, I think that's really cool that that's how it kind of shows up for you and, you know, like this idea of having a team of collaborators where everyone is able to bring to the table whatever their unique strength is. I think that is so important because, you know, we're not all geared to be good at all the same things. And that's a great way to kind of lean into what your strengths are by relying on other people to also lean into theirs. So that's a really great point. Robert: I think it does. It takes kind of all types, and I think it's surrounding yourself in environments where, you know, I also find like people do things that they're good at and that they like doing. And so like, look, I can, you know, I can talk and give interviews till I'm blue in the face, right? I'm not I'm not worried. I will get on the phone with a reporter or somebody else like, these are things that I don't find difficult or hard at all and thus am happy to do them all the time. And so, I think when people have strengths and weaknesses, it's also it's like, "OK, what's going to make your day a day that is more enjoyable or workflow that's more enjoyable?" Obviously, we all have to do things sometimes that aren't completely, you know, that we like to do or are always great at. But I think finding roles that you go and say, "I know I can hit the ball here. I know this is the kind of role player I can be." You know, will just set you up for a lot more success and then will also make it so that you're less likely to be put in a position where you feel like, "Look, those aren't my strengths." Eleni: Yeah, everyone's experience is unique. And also, the world is a more interesting place for the fact that people learn and think differently. Progress wouldn’t happen if we didn’t have some people that like, thought out of the box. And then also we need people that are really good executors and able to get things done. Robert: Totally. Eleni: Thank you so much for talking to me and for sharing your story and for all the work that you're doing in this space in terms of, you know, initiatives and, you know, state bills that help kids with dyslexia. Robert: Well, thank you so much for having me on, and thank you for this series. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got that job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Brianna Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
In ItDyslexia: More than mixing up letters
When kids have trouble learning to read, families may wonder about dyslexia. But what exactly is dyslexia? And what are the signs to look out for? When kids have trouble learning to read, families may wonder about dyslexia. But what exactly is dyslexia? And what are the signs to look out for? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk about dyslexia with Dr. Gabrielle Rappolt-Schlichtmann. Gabbie is an education scientist who works to make education more inclusive to kids and adults who learn and think differently. She’s also dyslexic, and the parent of a third grader with dyslexia. Tune in to learn some of the early signs of dyslexia, and why it’s never too late to get a diagnosis. Find out how to work with your child’s school to get support, and what reading strategies work best. Plus, hear why Gabbie would never want to be “cured” of dyslexia, even if she could be. Related resources What is dyslexia?7 common myths about dyslexia How to teach kids with dyslexia to read The legit fear behind “Please don’t call on me to read”Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs…Rachel: …the ups and downs…Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today, we're taking a deep dive into dyslexia, what it is, what it isn't, and how to support kids who have it.Gretchen: And we have the perfect guest here to help us with that. Dr. Gabrielle Rappolt-Schlichtmann is an education scientist and the executive director and chief scientist at EdTogether, an organization that works to make education more inclusive to students who learn and think differently.Rachel: Gabbie is also someone who herself has dyslexia, and she's a mom to a kid with dyslexia. She talks about all that with so much insight and clarity, we're so happy she joined us for this conversation. So, Gabbie, welcome to "In It."Gabbie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you both today.Rachel: Well, to start off, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and in particular your work as it relates to kids who learn and think differently.Gabbie: Sure. So, I'm an applied developmental psychologist, and I've been working with schools and teachers, education professionals, museums — basically, wherever learning happens — to help them to be inclusive to kids who, and adults, who learn and think differently in designing learning environments.And I want to start off by saying, even though I work with and think about and design environments for all kids who learn and think differently, dyslexia has a very close place in my heart because I'm dyslexic and I am also the parent of a third grader who is dyslexic and has ADHD. And so, I do think about that. I think a lot more in my personal life and my personal experience in addition to working with schools and in educational environments.Gretchen: So, as you know, we invited you here today to talk about dyslexia. So, let's start with the basics. Gabbie. I think probably the most common myth we hear when it comes to dyslexia is that it's about reading and writing letters backwards. Is that what dyslexia is?Gabbie: No, definitely not. So, when we think about dyslexia, it really doesn't have anything to do with flipping letters around or anything like that. It's a brain-based learning difference that affects reading, writing, and spelling. So, people who have dyslexia have difficulty basically working with language is how you can think about it. So, they may have difficulty isolating the sounds within words or matching letters to the sounds. Like, for example, you might have difficulty mapping the sound "to" to the letter T or the sound "tho" to the letter Th. And when you have difficulty with that, it can really affect your ability to deconstruct words as you're trying to read. And that affects reading, and it also affects your ability to spell and produce language as you're trying to write.It tends to run in families, like in my family. So, my son's dyslexic, I'm also dyslexic, and my father as well. And it really has nothing to do with intelligence. It's really important to understand that. It's just really about how your brain handles language as it relates to text, but it doesn't have any meaning to how intelligent you are.Rachel: So, were you kind of on the lookout for it, knowing that it runs in families and knowing that you yourself have it, you know, so with your kids, was that something that you kind of had an eye out for?Gabbie: Definitely. And my son is actually my second child, but we were on the lookout for it, and they popped up for us when he was in preschool. It felt like he was randomly — when we would talk about the alphabet or letters, or I would read to him — it almost felt like he was sort of guessing or randomly saying what letter went with a sound. So, I kind of had a clue that he was going to have some difficulty. And then, in fact, by the time he got to kindergarten, he was really struggling to get anything out of the reading instruction that was happening in his classroom.Rachel: You know, one common belief is the idea that you can't diagnose a child with dyslexia until they're in elementary school. Is that true?Gabbie: No, absolutely not. In fact, oftentimes we refer to that as the sort of waiting to fail approach. So, absolutely, by the time kids get into elementary school, when they're in the thick of reading instruction, you're going to see difficulty if a child is dyslexic. But way before that, when they have first exposures to anything about mapping the symbols of language, to the sounds of language, you know, doing things in a sequence, really that idea of thinking about working with language, if they're having difficulty with that, it's a clue that they might have difficulty. In fact, you can screen kids as early as preschool for difficulty with that.And with my son, because he was having difficulty, I can remember — he's in third grade now — but we went in to see his teachers for a conference and, you know, they were like "Kids develop at different rates and let's just give him time." And I thought, you know, there's no harm in having direct, explicit reading instruction, right? So, let's just do it. Why wait for him to fail, you know? And I did actually have to I don't know if this is the right word, but escalate it to the head of the preschool, because I was getting a lot of pushback from the teachers. And when I talked to her, I just said, "You know, I'm dyslexic, my dad's dyslexic. He's not responding to reading instruction. I don't think any kid gets sad or upset from getting competence with a skill. So, let's get him some, you know, instruction." And they did. They were very responsive up to that.Gretchen: I like that idea. I like to say, "You know what? No matter what, this is confidence-building, right? To get these extra skills in place." So, you know, you mentioned a few of the things that families or teachers could be looking for when kids are really young, you know, thinking about a parent at home, what would be a very like easy sign to maybe bring to the teachers and say, hey, could there be something here?Gabbie: Sure. So, I think a lot of times as parents, we do nursery rhymes with kids or maybe singing songs with kids where there's rhyming. And if you're noticing that your child's having a lot of difficulty with rhyming or sort of not picking that up or seems like they're guessing you might probe like in a fun game, you know "What rhymes with cat? I'm thinking sad," you know, sort of going back and forth. And, you know, a lot of kids have difficulty with these things. But if it's popping up along with when you're sort of introducing a letter to a child or something like that, and maybe they have difficulty following directions in a sequence or something like that, that would be a sort of constellation of things to raise to a teacher.Rachel: So, is there an optimal age for a child to be evaluated for dyslexia or, you know, I mean, we talked a little bit about it can be as young as preschool, but is there kind of like an ideal age or is it really about when you see the signs?Gabbie: Yeah, I think the answer to that is it's never too late. Absolutely not. And I'm a good example of that. I didn't have a diagnosis until I was in ninth grade.Rachel: Oh, wow.Gabbie: And I'm a very good example of, you know, a girl who's not identified because I was doing well enough. So, the teachers were sort of saying, "Well, it's fine. This is just who Gabby is. And then I had an English teacher actually in the ninth grade, who was like, "Wow, I would really.." based on our classroom discussions and, you know, how smart this teacher thought that I was, he expected more from my writing, And so, he asked to see a rough draft in my handwriting, and the spelling was so bad, he was like, "I can't read this. Let's figure out what's going on."And then I was finally evaluated and I got my diagnosis. And it made a huge difference to me in terms of the direct instruction — really remedial instruction that I had around reading specifically — but also the accommodations that I received in school, which allowed me really to excel in areas of interest like science and math. And in fact, I went on to college and majored in neuroscience and my job now it's like 80% reading and writing.Rachel: Right.Gretchen: So, then your ninth-grade teacher noticed these things. It took up until them. I'm wondering if you had a sign, if the teachers didn't have one, did you have one inside and wonder what was up?Gabbie: Oh, yeah. And my mom is actually a special education teacher.Rachel: Got it.Gabbie: And she knew, she knew what was going on and she was teaching me at home, basically. So she was, you know, reading with me. I can remember spelling tests in elementary and early middle school where we would start on Mondays and just drill through them. And I would still barely pass after hours and hours. I can remember having homework where I, you know, had to fill out a workbook, and I can remember becoming so frustrated I actually threw the book across the room in a sort of fit of anger. And I was very calm, self-regulated child. So, I think for me I just thought, "This is what learning is" until I had that teacher.And it was like this real relief for me being evaluated and having the label, because I think sometimes people worry that the label is bad or can affect you in a negative way. But for me, it was a complete relief because it was like, "Well, you know, you just learn and think differently and your teachers aren't teaching the way that you need to learn. And there are some things that we can do now that we know to make this a way easier lift." And it was absolutely true.Rachel: Wow. That is really amazing that, you know, you were able to get to that point without anybody really seeing it. But once you got there, what supports did you get, you know, and how did they help?Gabbie: Yeah, I want to say first to that, as a professional in the field, you know, when I work with middle school teachers and high school teachers and sort of helping them think about kids with dyslexia, kids with other learning and thinking differences, I'm often incredibly surprised at how little they know about their kids reading levels and that they tend to make assumptions about everybody being able to read when they're sitting in like, say, a history classroom or a math classroom, and making assignments without looking into that, especially if a child doesn't have an IEP yet.So, I think it is important to know that by the time you get past fourth grade, most teachers aren't thinking about teaching reading, they're thinking about their content area instruction. And so, they may not be aware of where your child's specific reading skills are or writing skills. So, in terms of accommodations, I would say for me it was mostly about being able to listen to my texts across the curriculum.So back then, this is a long time ago now, I used to have books on tapes, so my textbooks on tape, but now, of course, we have digital support, so you can get basically any text, any reading that you need to, including things that are on paper like worksheets. You can use accessibility, accommodations, and features even on your phone just to have things read aloud to you. And so, that's a pretty basic accommodation that was really important to me. In fact, now I still often because I'm so much more efficient at listening comprehension in my professional life, I listen to the texts that I read. Not always, but most of the time.Another accommodation that I've used through college was doing speech to text technology, so where you can speak what you want to say in text and then editing through typing. I also had a lot of executive functioning support. So, you can think about executive functioning as being that sort of control center of your brain, that sort of set of skills that helps you to self-regulate and organize and figure out how much time it will take you to do something and be able to plan to get your work done. That was a huge thing for me. So, I had really explicit instruction and supports around, you know, having a daily planner and really learning how to chart and better guesstimate how long things would take me.Rachel: Right. You know, reading instruction is such a hot topic. It was then, it is now. So, families might be hearing things like structured literacy, balance literacy or phonics versus whole language. When it comes to kids with dyslexia and really all kids who are learning to read. What does science tell us about how kids learn to read best?Gabbie: Yeah. So, they really need explicit instruction about the code of reading. English is very, actually exists across languages, but let's just talk about English here. English is a very complicated language. It involves you learning one sound and then under a different set of rules. It makes a different set of sounds, you know. So, for kids who are dyslexic and many other kids as well, really explicitly teaching that sort of phonics-based, separating out, intentionally teaching systematically, the code of language is really important. And for kids with dyslexia, really doing it in a multisensory way so that you're taking different ways to get the information into your mind.One approach that a lot of people talk about, that's evidence-based in terms of supporting kids with dyslexia to learn to read is kids actually trace letters with their finger in sand as they're doing the sound-related work and it's just a way to work on getting that idea into the brain through different channels. And then repeated practice. You know, kids with dyslexia are going to need repeated practice with a skill over and over and over again in many different ways, more times than you would ever expect that you would need that repeated practice.Rachel: That brings me to my next question, because teachers always tell us from preschool all the way up. I mean, I've had sixth, seventh, eighth grade teachers even say it, that the best thing we can do for our kids is read out loud to them. So, does a diagnosis of dyslexia reflect some sort of failure on that front?Gabbie: Definitely not.Rachel: Good.Gabbie: And it really goes back to that brain-based difference thing. You know, our brains are built for language, not for reading. And so, some kids, when they come to reading, have a brain that picks it up more easily. And other kids, you know, kids with dyslexia being one example, really need that explicit instruction to get their brain around what's happening on the reading side. So, it's nothing that you did. It's just the way I am. Exposure to text is always good because it's good for your relationship with your child. It's good for them to understand the utility of books and to be transported by stories or to understand like how they can get information from books. But whether you did that or not won't affect their ability to pick up reading, when you start getting into decoding and understanding the really, you know, the relationship between symbols and sounds.Rachel: So, as you shared, you know, there's a genetic component to dyslexia. And so, if there's a parent or caregiver out there who is dyslexic and maybe they didn't get the supports to feel confident in their reading now, or they still find reading really frustrating, how can they read to or read with their child?Gabbie: OK. So, this is a wonderful question, and you can absolutely get as much out of listening to books as you can from reading books to your child to listening to books together and then talking about the story when you're in bed together. I remember when my daughter, she was, I think, in fifth or sixth grade, I think fifth grade, and she really wanted me to read "Little Women" to her and I can read it, but oh my goodness, is my fluency slow with that. You know, the sort of older English and it was very tough. And I remember sitting in bed with her and she was like, "I can read it, Mom," you know? And I'm probably going to cry right now while I'm talking about it. It's a hard moment, you know, like, because she was, you know, beyond me in that skill. Now, I can read a very complicated neuroscience text about dyslexia published in "Science" magazine. But I read it by listening, and reading a text like that is always going to be really hard for me. So, having her do that, I was like at the same time really proud and then also a little bit ashamed. But she just made it so wonderful for me in terms of being like, you know, "I want to read it" and us doing that together. So, that's also a good opportunity, I think reading together doesn't necessarily mean you reading to your child.Rachel: And I love that you're sharing that, you know, audiobooks, listening to books. It's I feel like there's that myth out there that that's a cheat. And it's totally not.Gabbie: Definitely not. And I think one big piece of advice I could give parents, you know, when they're sitting in IEP meetings and or thinking about their kids talking to their teachers in parent-child conferences, you know, by the time kids get to fourth grade, which is really that transition from learning to read to reading to learn, now your child might still be learning to read, and that's fine, but by the time you get to fourth grade, you really don't want all of their access to the content in the subject areas to be through reading in a traditional sense if they're reading below grade level.So, it's like separating "I'm still learning how to decode the text at a certain level, and I'm learning to comprehend texts at maybe a much higher level. And so, I can do that through listening comprehension." So, that's one of the best things that can happen when you get into middle school and high school. If you have a child who's reading below grade levels and working is on that is to say, "Let's make sure that reading comprehension in subject areas is that they have access to listening to text."Rachel: So, I've seen a statistic that one in five students has a language-based disability. But you certainly don't get the sense that we have that many students getting extra reading and writing support in the classroom. So, why is that? And what are the barriers to getting a diagnosis, if that's related to the reason why there's this kind of disparity?Gabbie: I think there are lots of reasons why kids aren't identified. So, you know, resources is one thing in the schools. So, there's a kind of threshold to be screened and there are limits, a limited set of resources, amount of time in terms of the number of special educators that they have in the school. So, that sometimes plays out, you know, in terms of who gets identified, how many kids are captured in that net. You know, I think it's knowledge on the teacher's part.General education teachers, so the ones who teach the main classroom, they might not know anything about dyslexia at all, might not have had any experience in their training, might have only had one class where they learned about all disabilities from teaching kids who are deaf to teaching kids or has autistic to teaching kids who are dyslexic. And that often sets up a kind of us and them in schools where it's like kids who have difficulty reading, that's the responsibility of the special education teachers and then everybody else's I'm responsible for, just because they don't know. They just don't know. There's a knowledge gap there.And I think also sometimes parents don't necessarily know that they can have their kids evaluated or can advocate to have their kids evaluated in the school. And that testing can be free, is free in the school. You can always have a private evaluation which can be expensive and you have to wait a long time for. But you can ask to have your child evaluated and you are protected. Your child is protected under IDEA to be evaluated and to have services when they're warranted. So, there are lots of issues as to why those kids don't get services.Rachel: And so, then if, let's say a kid gets missed and then they don't get a diagnosis and they don't get the support they need, how does this impact a person's future life? How does it impact, you know, upper grades of school to beyond if they don't get these supports?Gabbie: Yeah. So, I mean, it can be really devastating. And I don't want to put it on the child because I really believe, you know, in my work we make choices, how we create schools, and the ways that we teach.Rachel: Yep.Gabbie: And there's absolutely no reason why all kids couldn't be getting direct, explicit, systematic multisensory reading instruction, because then we would capture all the kids in the general classroom. But unfortunately, that's not the way most schools are set up. And so, what ends up happening is kids fail and then they get separate, explicit reading instruction as an add-on. So, I think when you don't have that and you're not reading on grade level, it really affects your ability to participate in any aspect of the curriculum. So, being able to learn about history, learn about science, and about math, even if you might be gifted in those areas because so much of the way that we construct school is through reading. Yeah, like if you think about math, you get a math textbook, right?Rachel: Yep. You read a word problem.Gabbie: You get a word problem, you're doing a proof. You have to write the proof, right in geometry. So, we really use reading and writing as a medium for instruction and for learning. It doesn't have to be that way, but that is how we do it. So, it can be really devastating for kids. And on an emotional level, I'm doing a bunch of work around stigmatization and how it affects kids with learning differences. Their perception of themselves and literacy is so important to our culture that when a person presents as not literate, they feel almost as if they're less than human, right? Because it's like this skill that we all assume that everyone has within our culture. And it's like, "Well, why can't you do that?" You know?And so, it's like this experience of dehumanization that happens if you can't read. And so, yeah, if you feel like it's being missed, if you have a concern about your child, if you suspect, you know, get in there and ask questions and you might get pushback. But I think, you know, no child was ever harmed by having an evaluation and getting extra support, really.Rachel: To be super clear about this, can a child or anyone who's been diagnosed be cured of dyslexia?Gabbie: No.Rachel: I'm using the word cured or doing air quotes, but also, you know, can we make it go away?Gabbie: Yeah, you cannot make it go away. It is literally a brain-based difference in how your brain processes and works with language. There's some evidence that as you get intervention, your brain does change. You know, the brain is classic. It does change in response to intervention. But when we look at that, it's mostly about when dyslexic people learn to read marshaling other areas of the brain to help them to do that. So, you can change in response to intervention. But no, it's not going to be cured.And OK, I might I'm going to say something a little controversial now as an adult with dyslexia, I'm not saying that it was easy. It was really tough to be in school and to go through schools that weren't really like fit for me as a person and that I had to figure out how to navigate, you know, with support. It was really hard. And I have a lot of privilege as a white person and a person who is resourced in terms of my parents being able to get me extra support. So, I don't want to like reduce that.But I do want to say, looking at my life now and who I am, I wouldn't want to be cured of dyslexia because it makes me the person that I am. And what's interesting is if you look at the research literature, even the brain science literature around dyslexia, that there are actually lots of other differences in the brain. Everyone's focused on reading because that's the biggest challenge, because the schools aren't set up to support kids who are dyslexic. But there's actually this other really interesting research literature that's just getting going, that's looking at, "Well, do kids with dyslexia have advantages in visuospatial processing?" So, for example, people who are dyslexic when they get through school are actually overrepresented among astrophysicists.Rachel: Wow.Gabbie: And you may be like, why is that the case? Well, it turns out that people who are dyslexic tend to be better at picking up patterns from a visual field. So, like pattern recognition, like being able to look at a star chart and recognize a black hole and things like that.Rachel: Something I could never do.Gabbie: Yeah. So, I think there's lots of things about being dyslexic that are advantages that maybe make up the kind of person that you are. That also comes with negatives, you know, in terms of the reading in the way school set up. But doesn't everybody have a mix of those things?Rachel: Totally.Gabbie: So, even if it could be cured, I wouldn't want it to be because it makes me who I am.Rachel: And that's such a great thing to be able to communicate to kids who maybe find out like, "Oh, you know, I have this diagnosis now. Now what?" You know, for parents and teachers to know that, you know, these are some things that they can maybe share with those kids. You know, as a super positive.Gabbie: Absolutely.Rachel: Gabbie, thank you so much for sharing everything you know and your personal stories. It's been just such a pleasure.Rachel: I have learned so much today. And also, I really appreciate you busting these myths because some of them I really didn't understand were myths.Gabbie: Thank you both so much. It was really fun to talk with you today.Rachel: Before we go, we have a favor to ask. On this show, we talk a lot about finding joy and celebrating successes when it comes to raising kids who learn and think differently. But what about the fails.Rachel: Oh the fails!Rachel: Yes, the fails. Let's be real! We all make mistakes. So, let's bond over those kinds of moments, too.Rachel: I have no idea what you're talking about, but. OK, I do. So, I think we're talking about those days when we are so exhausted, so fed up, we find ourselves saying or doing the total opposite of what we think a good parent or caregiver would actually say or do.Rachel: Totally. Like, maybe you just lose it after your kid spills juice everywhere again.Rachel: Or maybe you set a limit, even though you know there is no way you're going to stick to it. I mean, not that I've ever done that, but it's probably something to watch out for.Rachel: Yes, you are not alone. So, let's laugh and maybe cry about these all too human fails together. If you have a story to share, send us a voice memo at InIt@understood.org. Tell us how it started, what you were thinking and feeling, and how it ended. If you'd rather send an e-mail, that's fine too. You can also send that to InIt@understood.org.Rachel: You can be anonymous or use your first name. Just know that submissions may be played or read on the podcast and thanks. We can't wait to hear from you, and we can't do this part without you.Rachel: You've been listening to" In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So, we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at InIt@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Rachel: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Rachel: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin, and Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Rachel: And thanks for always being in it with us.
ADHD Aha!ADHD and the “model minority” mask (Emily’s story)
Emily would hide the ADHD symptoms that made them feel like a failure to their traditional Asian family. Getting an ADHD diagnosis changed that.Emily Unity’s challenges with executive function and sensory processing seemed very similar to those of their mental health clients with ADHD. Emily does peer support work for young people in Australia. Ultimately, it was their interactions with other youth with ADHD that led to their own ADHD diagnosis. Emily talks about masking their ADHD symptoms and feeling like a failure to their traditional Asian family. They also discuss how stereotypes of Asian people as a model minority made them feel shame and guilt. And they share how they finally felt seen and “broke the mask” when they were diagnosed with ADHD. Related resourcesEmily’s article: How culture shaped my ADHD diagnosisThe difference between ADHD and sensory processing challenges What is executive function?Episode transcriptEmily: I was very honored to work with a lot of really diverse young people, particularly a lot of young people that have been diagnosed with ADHD. When they shared their stories with me, that was the first time that I really, really felt understood. And I was really able to relate to what they were saying.And I was like, "Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Like, I really relate to that. Here's an example of how I also had that experience," and they were like, "OK, you should probably check that out because you potentially have ADHD." And it was maybe, like, the 20th person I've worked with that had said that, that I was like, "OK, I should probably get this checked out."Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Emily Unity. Emily is a young person who lives in Australia, and she refers to herself as a miscellaneous blob. I'll let her tell you why that is.Emily: Hi! Thanks so much for having me. My name is Emily. My pronouns are she/they. I definitely feel like I am a miscellaneous blob because there's just so much about me that doesn't necessarily discretely fit into certain categories. I've just found myself to be really interested in the world in general and really attracted to very weird, niche things that don't really have anything in common. So I'm culturally diverse, and sexual and gender diverse, and also neurodiverse. But also, like, even career-wise, I've been an artist and an engineer, and now I'm a mental health advocate. And this is just me, just now, and so if you talk to me in a week, maybe everything will be different. But I just love being a weird blob and existing in spaces that are new. And it's just, yeah, not, not really able to describe myself in a very succinct way.Laura: I love that. So why don't you tell our listeners what it is that you do?Emily: So about 50 percent of my work is, like, policy advocacy, but I'd say the other 50 percent is peer work. So I've always been really passionate about mental health, and I've been volunteering since a young age. And when I went and did my studies in, like, postgrad psych, I found that it was a little bit too rigid for me or didn't quite sit with me too well, so I went in and found other alternative things of therapy.And one of the pathways that I went down was peer work. And peer work essentially is when you have a lived experience of a mental illness and you work alongside someone else that has that lived experience as well. And it's much more mutual than a psychologist and patient relationship, like, you're working with each other, you're walking alongside each other, and your journey, like, neither of you, uh, recovered in a binary sense. You're consistently working through things, and it's very reciprocal and lovely.I found that, like, in my journey, it was definitely such a big catalyst for me to find other people that really understood what I was feeling because they had lived it and were still living it. And that was such a game changer for me. Instead of talking to someone who felt like they were trying to fix me or felt like they didn't quite get it, it's been absolutely game changing for me and apparently game changing for a lot of the young people that I work in.Laura: And through that work, you actually started to hear a lot from clients with ADHD, is that right?Emily: Yeah, definitely. So I didn't think that I was necessarily neurotypical before peer work, but I was really labeled with, like, certain labels, like depression and anxiety. But through doing peer work, I worked with a number of young people that had diagnoses of ADHD and were in, like, quite formal treatment settings. And it was then that they were sharing a lot of experiences with me, and what they were saying were a little bit too relatable. So they highly encouraged me to go seek out that pathway for myself.Laura: So tell me about the too-relatable things. What were you hearing from your clients about ADHD that perked your ears up, so to speak, and made you think, "Is this related to anything that's going on with me?"Emily: There were, like, these small anecdotal things that they would tell me, particularly with, like, sensory stuff. It was, like, overstimulation of like, "I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying over the sound of my shirt tag being itchy and, like, the one strand of hair touching my face." Like, I was like, "Oh yeah, I totally get that." And they're like, that's not tied specifically to my depression or my anxieties; I should probably explore that more. Or, like, understimulation, with trying to go to sleep and then the latent noise in your brain being too loud so you need to put on something else to sort of drown that out. And then lots of, like, executive dysfunction, like, "Let's clean the table, but before that, I should clean the sink, but oh, I need to take the trash out. Oh, I should get changed." And there's just all this, like, stuff going on and then feeling like you can't do any of it because there's too much and not enough happening. And like, I tend to info dump a lot, which I'm currently doing, which is like —Laura: At my request, thank you.Emily: Putting a lot of information there, going down these tangents because I'm just so passionate and focused on it. It's just all those small cognitive and sensory things that — it just happened over and over again and hearing my young people's stories and just being able to relate to them way too much. But also being able to see the immense amount of, like, pleasure and understanding that they had within themselves once they got help.Laura: Tell me a little bit more about the sensory stuff that you're referencing. I think it sounds like sensory overload, right? Like, a lot of information coming in and also, like, seeking out sensory stimulation, which can be pretty common with ADHD. Because, you know, we can look at, like, trouble with self-regulation or trouble switching gears as leading to sensory overload. Tell me a little bit more about your experience with that.Emily: From a very, very young age, I used to go on ski trips overseas, and my mom would get me to wear gloves because it was freezing. And I just, I really hated wearing gloves because I felt like the world was completely on mute. Like, I just felt like I was experiencing the world through this really thick shield. And that's because I realized later that, like, my touch sensors were dulled, and that was such a big thing for me. And, like, nowadays to manage even my anxiety and, like, lots of my ADHD, I do a lot of stimming, which is, like, self-stimulatory behavior of trying to regulate my sensory input. So if there's not enough, like, I'll tap my hand a little bit or I'll play with a fidget toy. Or if there's too much, then I'll try to, like, redirect that somewhere else. Sometimes I'll eat some food that's just so good. Like, sometimes I really love peanut butter on toast, but I will not be able to concentrate on what the other person's saying, because I just really love the peanut butter. So yeah, just be aware of that, I think, to be able to communicate with the other person in that environment and be like, I'm really sorry. I do want to listen to what you're saying. Can I please just finish, like, what's happening in my mouth? For me, there's so many small things. Like, I need to take out the trash. I need to take out the trash, I need to take out the trash, but there's a plane flying overhead and I can hear the sound of the plane, but I need to take out the trash. Because of that, I can't listen to the plane or take out the trash. It's very silly. I feel like that sort of executive dysfunction is something that was really lovely to understand about myself. Because normally I would just beat myself up about it and be like, "You're useless. Like, why can't you do anything? That makes no sense that you can't take out the trash because there's a plane."But I think it's about being, like, a lot more kind with myself and having that language to really communicate what's going on with me. Because I think for a lot of people around me, they just see me, like, frozen, like, "Ah, I can't do anything," and they can't help and they can't understand.Laura: You're talking about executive functioning difficulties, which, I have to be honest, Emily, it kind of surprises me. In my interactions with you, I've found you to be one of the most organized people I've ever interacted with.Emily: Thank you. I highly appreciate that. People tend to say that quite a bit about me. And I think, honestly, it comes from a place of sort of being forced into that. So I was only diagnosed with ADHD quite recently, like in the past couple of years. And I think because I was sort of punished for a lot of the symptoms that I exhibited from ADHD, I hid a lot of it, or I, like, built up different structures in my life to just cope with it. When I hear any sort of constructive criticism, I take it on quite personally. I'm working on that, obviously, but I definitely used to carry a lot of criticism with me all the time.I was just, like, compulsively trying to organize myself because I felt really awful anytime that I let anyone down with my dysfunction of not being able to remember things, you know. So now I have, like, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets and lists upon lists, just trying to get to that point where I can be accountable for my own actions and people don't have to be, like, let down by me all the time, which I definitely felt a lot when I was younger.Laura: You felt like you let people down.Emily: Yeah, intensely. Laura: Can you say more about that? Emily: So I grew up sort of surrounded by a lot of expectations. I come from a first-generation immigrant background — like, my mom is a refugee and my dad's a migrant. And I think a lot of people from those types of backgrounds, they come to a new country and they want to just flip that narrative around as quickly as possible. And so, they want the best for their children, they build up this, like, really amazing life. And I grew up so privileged. But in doing so, I had so many expectations on me: to be smart, to be good at everything, to get a good husband and that sort of stuff, to find, like, a privileged, pristine, and prestigious career path and be this perfect human. But I'm so imperfect as a person and now I've come to love that. But at the time, I definitely felt like it was a bad thing. And I just really tried my best to shape myself into something that I wasn't. And I think that's why my ADHD went undiagnosed for so long is because I was really good at that at the time within, like, school settings, and I really benefited from a lot of the routine and structure that was imposed on me. But when that was taken away after school, everything fell apart. Laura: How did it fall apart?Emily: Not having, like, class in the morning consistently and not going into all these specific things. I would just not be able to function. It was sort of the first time in my life. Like, I definitely had that ADHD symptom of, if something is not interesting, it is almost physically painful to do. But I had people around me at the time that the expectation and, like, the fear of letting them down was so much louder. And like, I would just be able to push through it, push through the pain, because, like, that pain of letting them down was so much more important to me.But when I finished school, I was just, like, completely moved away from, like, most things that I knew. And I think because of that, I also moved away from a lot of the active, like, expectations and, like, the criticism. Which is partially a good thing, but also the, like, physical pain that I felt not being able to do something that I wasn't interested in, that was everything. So I fell into, like, a lot of, you know, following the, like, I call it, like, the ADHD demon. And I mean, it in, like, a really wholesome way. I love my ADHD demon, but they would lead me down these, like, really, like, interesting and beautiful pathways, but they were completely nonproductive and definitely derailed the life that other people had sort of set up for me in terms of going and getting, like, this set degree or in doing this job.I just started pursuing a lot of miscellaneous things, which now I'm entirely grateful for. But at the time it just felt like I wasn't in control. But I was still having, like, the best time.Laura: Is that related to, um, this idea of masking that you talked about in the article? For our listeners, Emily wrote a beautiful article called "How Culture Affected My ADHD Diagnosis." And in it, she talks about the "model minority mask." There's a quote from your article — you say there was this model minority myth that claimed all Asians are obedient and academically gifted. And you go on to talk about how model minorities are supposed to be quiet and well behaved, and they're meant to be high achievers.Emily: Yeah. I studied so hard in school. I, like, I really tried. And I think because of that, I ended up being quote-unquote high achieving. But I think at the time, I didn't afford myself that sort of "Hey, you did it" feeling. Because I assumed that if I was good at something, particularly in school, it was just a product of my genetics because I'm Asian. Like, I genuinely just thought that because I'm Asian, I have to be good at this. And anything less than 100 is, like, a complete failure. And I'm not just letting myself down. I'm not just letting my family down. I'm letting down, like, the entire collective that is Asian people, which is a ridiculous sentiment. But I definitely felt that at the time; that sort of model minority mask of me pushing myself and being this, like, high-achieving, quiet human. It just goes against every, like, stereotypical idea of what ADHD is. When someone thinks about ADHD, I think, particularly when I was younger, I thought it was, you know, a young boy that's, like, restless in class, like, the class clown. But for me, I was, like, just, I felt all this weight of expectations. I felt like if I acted out, if like, if I was fidgeting with anything, it was a bad thing and I would be punished for it. And so I just really contained myself, even though it was, like, sometimes physically painful to sit still. And I just did everything that was expected of me because I, I just felt like there would be severe consequences to not just myself but, like, the people that I love if I didn't.And I think later on it took me so long to take off that mask. It was, like, permanently on my face. But that sort of high-functioning, quote-unquote, which I think is a really humble term, like, high-functioning aspect, I was demonstrating was used to deny me support. There was like, "You're too smart to have ADHD. You're too intelligent to, like, need support. Like, why aren't you working up to your full potential?" And that was just so distressing. And I just always felt like I was too Asian to have ADHD. Like, Asians can't have ADHD, you know — you're meant to be good at math. And, like, you're meant to be organized and quiet. And I just felt this huge imposter syndrome of "I don't deserve help," which is something that I felt when I was a lot younger, but it just translated so easily into the ADHD context as well.Laura: That sounds really exhausting, Emily.Emily: Yeah. It really was, like, just this internal battle in my head.Laura: Did you burn out at any point?Emily: Yeah, I think there are a couple of points where, like, ADHD definitely feeds into a lot of my other diagnoses, I suppose. Once one thing sort of starts falling down, everything else falls down, as well, like a house of cards. And I think it's just, it's incredibly difficult for me, at the time, to understand what was going on. I think particularly with ADHD, because I didn't have the understanding or the label or the medication, I just felt like I knew who I was and I was just an obedient, high-achieving human. And then suddenly, without all that structure, I couldn't be that person. And I just had this huge identity crisis that was also a part of exploring my own identity and nothing really made sense.So I did have a lot of breakdown points that were not just burning out from work or study. There were also, like, burning out from just, life, from having to, like, discover who I am by, like, trial of fire. I just want softness and understanding. And I just, I couldn't find that.Laura: I wrote down something from one of your emails. I'm writing down a lot of things that you say, by the way, Emily, you're a very great communicator. But you said diagnoses are ways to communicate myself. I thought that was really lovely that you said that, and I'm hoping that you can share a little bit more what you mean by that.Emily: This is, like, a fairly controversial opinion, but it's something that's widely shared, I think, within particularly complex mental health. I think that diagnoses are sort of ways that we try to categorize people to help them on a certain path. And I think clinical psychology is really good in that sense that, like, you can investigate certain experiences and then have treatment pathways that are, like, evidence-based.But I think that they can be really, really harmful — diagnoses. I think that they can be a label that, like, becomes, like, who you are, and people tend to just minimize the complexity of your experience down to just a certain label. But I found that diagnoes for me, the benefit of it is being able to communicate who I am and find my shared people. Like, I wouldn't have been able to find you if I didn't identify by the label of ADHD. And I think that, like, that label for me is something that is very positive, but I think for a lot of other people, it's very negative. It's a way of just saying like, "Hey, like, this is something that I have been labeled with, necessarily, and you can go and look it up for yourself." And I think that was just excellent for me, like, growing up. You know, when I was diagnosed with depression or anxiety, or, like, certain other things, people that I loved that weren't really able to understand me could go and look that up on their own time. And particularly because I didn't have the language to explain to them, "This is how I'm feeling." Then it would be a lot easier for us to come to that sort of shared ground.And I think ADHD for me has just been — it's not that I should have a favorite diagnosis or anything like that, but it's been such a wholesome experience coming and finding more people that really identify positively with that label. And now it's like, this is my kin, this is how we are. And it's lovely to have that shared experience, whether it be good or bad, it's just nice to be a part of that team.Laura: Yeah. Your ADHD demons can hang out and have fun together, right? Emily: Exactly! Yeah, yeah.Laura: I appreciate that you laid out what can be the downside of diagnoses and labels, but also talking about what the positives can be. The downside, I think, if I got this right, that you mentioned is that they can be an excuse to minimize certain things. Is that something that happened with you growing up? Because you had other diagnoses, did your ADHD, quote-unquote, stuff kind of get pushed to the side?Emily: Absolutely. I think that when you get labeled with certain things, particularly within, like, very formal clinical settings, whatever experience that you have later, this is not generalizing all mental health professionals, but, like, the ones that I engage with tended to tie different symptoms down to what was already on my record. And so because of that, I was misdiagnosed with a number of things. Like certain eating disorders were actually, like, diagnosed by itself instead of attributed to, like, different sort of body dysmorphia things that I was experiencing, or, like, identity crises. I had a lot of my experience that was tied down with ADHD to just, "Oh, you're, you're just really depressed or, like, you're really traumatized from this thing." Like, PTSD and depression and anxiety all have overlapping symptoms with ADHD, but there's a lot that I was experiencing that was just ADHD. Like, it wasn't explained by all the other labels that I had. But I think those things were just sort of glossed over. It'd be like, "Oh, OK, you already have this label. So we'll just try to funnel it into that." It was such a struggle to get a diagnosis because I think a lot of the psychiatrists that I engage with either had this stigma of ADHD, particularly women with ADHD, and then particularly nonwhite people with ADHD. Because there's a lot of cultural nuance that came into my presentation. And I think it took a really long time to find a psychologist or a psychiatrist that really understood that. I genuinely cried when I found the psychiatrist who was able to validate my experience. And I remember reading the notes, that they were, like, explicitly, "Emily was able to hide her symptoms within the structure of her family and within the culture that she was raised in. But away from that structure, everything became a lot more apparent." And so that was what brought, like, all the things to the surface and, like, broke the mask, so to speak. I never felt so seen in my life.Laura: Thank you so much for being here with me today, Emily. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you.Emily: No, really. It's such a pleasure to talk with you as well. I really love these conversations, and it's really nice to find people with that shared lived experience. If any of the things that I've shared today, like, really resonate with you, I just want to let you know that, like, your experience is really valid with just the way that it is, and that you really don't need a shape yourself into someone else's idea of who you are, whether that be, like, you don't necessarily identify with ADHD or you don't identify with any sort of label; you're valid in just who you are and how you're experiencing the world is completely important without needing to translate that to someone else's idea of mental health.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha," from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org, or leave us a voicemail at 646-616-1213, extension 702. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash ADHD Aha.Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening.
Questions to ask at your parent-teacher conference
Knowing that you have to go to a parent-teacher conference may make you feel nervous, intimidated, or frustrated. You may wonder what to expect, and what is expected of you. Preparing a list of questions will help you have a productive conversation with your child’s teacher. Prepare a list of questions.Prioritize your questions in case you run out of time during the conference. The following questions are examples that will help you learn more about your child’s progress in school: What is my child expected to learn this year? How will this be evaluated? What are my child’s strongest and weakest subjects? What are some examples of these strengths and weaknesses? Does my child hand homework in on time? What types of tests and evaluations will my child have to take this year? How are my child’s test-taking skills? Is my child participating in class discussions and activities? How are my child’s social skills? Does my child seem happy at school? Have you noticed any unusual behaviors? Has my child missed any classes other than excused absences? Do you think my child is reaching his or her potential? What can I do at home to help support my child’s academic progress? If your child receives special services (gifted programs, special education, English classes, speech or occupational therapy, or support for a learning disability), ask about the frequency of these services and about your child’s progress with them. Ask for explanations of anything you don’t understand. Listen carefully to what the teacher says. If you don’t understand something that the teacher talks about (such as an educational term or an explanation of a school policy), don’t be afraid to ask for clarification. It is important for you to understand what your child’s teacher is telling you. Ask the most important questions early in the conference. Ask the most important questions first as you may run out of time, especially if other parents are waiting to have their conference after yours. You can always schedule another meeting with the teacher to cover any points you didn’t cover. This article is excerpted with permission from Colorín Colorado. More resources Get tips to make the most of your parent-teacher conference. Use these two-minute parent-teacher conference surveys to help talk about your child. Explore conversation starters to use with teachers.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!How balancing anxiety and ADHD understimulation led to my “just right” job
Delia Gallegos is the chief financial officer of the Black Nerds Create collective. Her fandom hobby became the perfect job for her ADHD. Delia Gallegos combined her love of fandoms with her business experience to create the perfect job for her ADHD. Delia is the chief financial officer of Black Nerds Create (BNC), a collective for marginalized creators to make fandom content. Delia first joined BNC as a side hobby to her business operations career. But during the pandemic, she took part in the great resignation and left a job she loved at the Smithsonian. Delia realized that everything she loved about that job was about being there. Without the stimuli of in-person work, she couldn’t get a thing done. Delia’s resignation led her to transition her hobby to full time when she saw that BNC could use her business skills.Listen to this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?! for tips on forming habits with ADHD — and how sometimes you need to throw everything against the wall to see what sticks. Related resourcesBlack Nerds CreateADHD and anxiety4 ways I stay organized with ADHDADHD symptoms at different agesEpisode transcript Delia: That just made me realize, like, OK, if I can't control for these external factors that were making my job so enjoyable and my ADHD is, as I say, acting up so badly, like, what am I doing? Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. Growing up, Delia Gallegos loved story. Her love of stories like Harry Potter and Doctor Who led to her co-founding Black Nerds Create, an online community focused on critical and creative fandom. For years, Delia was helping to run Black Nerds Create, while also working a day job. Then came the Great Resignation and Delia left her office job. Now, her main focus is serving as the chief financial officer of Black Nerds Create. Delia has ADHD, and she's found a job that inspires her enough to keep her feeling productive and fulfilled. Delia, it's great to have you on the show. Delia: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Eleni: So, could you tell us what is Black Nerds Create? Delia: Black Nerds Create is essentially a collective that provides content through a lens of critical and creative fandom. What we like to say is we, like, we exist at the intersection of fandom and creation. We're talking like, you know, Marvel or Star Wars or things like that that people build fandoms around or, you know, some books, literature, things like that. Often you see people get inspired by those spaces, you see people all the time. Big-name creators who will say, "Oh yeah, I was inspired by growing up reading the Nancy Drew books" or whatever. And so, our goal with the content that we create is to provide kind of that bridge for marginalized creators, but especially Black creators, because we're often so underrepresented in media. So, there's a lot of Black people who don't feel welcome in fandom spaces but feel inspired by these works. So, how do we take those people and bring them into creation and hopefully inspire them to create their own things, whether that's within fandom and it doesn't go beyond that or hopefully goes beyond that into their own works. Like we've developed an anthology before, we've held virtual conventions before, you know, just inspiring people to take that next step in their process. Eleni: It's interesting because I think on first impression, when I hear the word like fan, I often think of it as more of, you know, like a consumer, or like an appreciator. So, could you talk a little bit more for those of us that perhaps are not that familiar with fandom, like how it kind of starts to, I guess move beyond just like consumption and like into creation? How does fandom do that? Delia: There are different types of fandom, let's say. So, let's say, you know, you watch Game of Thrones back when it was airing, you watched it every week. But that's kind of all you did. You enjoyed the show. That's what we would call casual fandom. A lot of people participate in casual fandom, even if they don't realize it. Like if you are really into sports or a sports team, that's a fandom, right? You're gathering — I don't do sports — you gather weekly to watch your team do the thing with the sports, right? So, that you could say is casual, but you're, the bridge creation often starts with what we call and, you know, we didn't, you know, create this term but critical fandom. So, what that is is viewing fandom works or any work really, could be literature or music through a critical lens, that means you may love the work. Like for me, originally my biggest fandom was Harry Potter. And we all know, you know, the author has done things that, you know. Eleni: What author? I thought there was no author.Delia: No. Right, right. Well, that's a great that's a great way to put it. For listeners who don't know anything about J.K. Rowling or her controversies, essentially within the last few years, she has really grounded herself in TERF ideology and TERF rhetoric. And for people who don't know what a TERF is, a TERF is a trans exclusionary, radical feminist. So, these are feminists who believe that trans people are harmful to the feminist movement, are specifically they're pretty vitriolic towards trans women specifically. A lot of people are not engaging with her works at all, not giving her money. And I, at Black Nerds Create, fall in that camp. You know, Harry Potter will always have a special place in my heart, but I can't consciously support somebody who would be so vitriolic and harmful to a marginalized group of people. Even before she went down the path, she went, you know, there are some harmful things in those books. And so, breaking that apart critically, like what does that mean? Critiquing it as a work, critiquing it for its messaging while still holding it in a place of love and enjoyment. You get really deep into it and you start asking questions and those questions can create inspiration. Like, "Why aren't there characters that look like me that are the main characters? What would that look like? What does it mean to be Black going to Hogwarts, a British boarding school?" you know, things like that. Eleni: Yeah, that's so cool. I know that you didn't get diagnosed with ADHD until later in high school, but like now, in retrospect, do you think your ADHD or your differences or the way that your brain works had anything to do with like why this might be such an important outlet for you and why you have such a strong interest in this? Like, is there any connection there? Delia: I think so. I grew up, you know, the stereotype. I was the book nerd, you know, reading all the time. And when you have ADHD, it's about what can engage your mind because, you know, your mind isn't rewarding itself off of basic tasks, like any neurotypical brain would. It's much easier to get really fixated, I think, on things that do interest you. So, when those things are nerdy and fandom-related, it's really easy to go all in because it's like something that's feeding your brain in the way that other tasks don't. So, I think I've always had a propensity to nerd hard, if you'll say, and for me my journey coming to Black Nerds Create happened right at a time where I my day job was not at all like rewarding my brain. I was struggling a lot as far as like my ADHD in that job. And so, having this like nerdy outlet, how it started for me, it was just a nerdy outlet really was able to know, I guess you could say, satiate my brain. In a way, it was this interesting kind of like side thing that just kind of grew over time. Eleni: Yeah. And how did that happen? How did a nerdy kind of side project become your, like, full-time thing? Delia: You know, sometimes I wonder how to because it's been over the course of many years, but at the same time, it just seems like it happened all of a sudden one day, right? Originally, I worked at iHeart Media and that job was very fast-paced and I would say I was really good at it and it was really good for my ADHD in that like I was constantly stimulated, so I didn't have any problems as far as like focusing on the work, getting the work done, but it was really bad for my anxiety, so I had to leave that job and enter the public sector to try and find a healthier work-life balance. But that job was, you know, you hear things about government workers and a lot of those stereotypes can be true. Like it's a very slow-paced type of job, which was great for my anxiety and my work-life balance, but my ADHD like was off the rails. So, I kind of came to the Black Nerds Create just in my spare time, just looking for anything interesting to do outside of my day job. And, you know, at that time, I was still fully into Harry Potter, and I think I just found them through a hashtag. And I was like, "Oh, this is a really cool place. They've got a cool podcast, they've got a cool content" and just kind of threw myself in that into that community. And before you knew it, I was creating, I was writing, and it was just really, I don't know, feeding my soul, if you will, my nerdy soul I suppose. And I think that year — it hadn't even been a full year — there was a Harry Potter convention that was happening in Texas, which is where I lived at the time, and they needed an extra person to be on all these panels and they were like, "Hey, you're always really thoughtful in the community, we need an extra person to fill in the seats, do you want to come with us and like hang out with us and be on these panels?" And I was like, you know, "Absolutely. I definitely want to do that." And I guess from there, I just kind of progressively got more involved. And so before you knew it, I was just like, "Hey, you guys seem to need help in these specific areas," specifically like with business operations, that's kind of in my at the time and my day job was kind of like my bread and butter was, I've worked in pretty much most facets of like business operations except HR and I was like, "I can help, you know, shore that up, like, why don't we just build this thing out?" And so that's kind of how it happened. And so, here we are years later, and I am fully the CFO. Eleni: I love it. And well, two questions actually. What does that entail? What does being a CFO of like a collective, what does that look like day to day for you? Delia: We're a small business. So, it's not you know, I wouldn't say it's got the glamor of a lot of startups, but, you know, it's making sure we have a varied and I would say unique streams of revenue compared to, you know, your average company, you know, so just managing all those. We have contractors that we get our work through, making sure they're all getting paid on time. And a lot of it is projections, lots of projections. That's most business because, you know, we have big plans, but a lot of these things take a while to realize. And so, making sure all of the stuff is in order for that and working with our CEO and co-founder Bianna to make sure our strategic plans are financially aligned with where we are. Because I don't know if you've ever worked with creatives in business, we can dream really big, but I feel like I'm the grounding force as far as all that is concerned. Like we can dream as big as you want, but what does the budget actually allow for? Eleni: Like, it's interesting because we often hear from ADHD folk that, you know, organization can be a challenge, planning can be a challenge. But, you know, you just talked about the fact that you've always worked in business operations, which sounds like it requires a lot of organization and planning. So, yeah, I guess my question for you is like it sounds that like, you know, things that we've heard other people reference as challenges are not challenges for you. Do you want to talk a little bit about like how your differences show up for you at work? Like how it actually makes you a great business operations person or a great CFO or not only like when things can kind of come up for you as well, either way. Delia: Yeah. No, business operations does require a lot of organization. And I would say, you know, and if by a traditional measure, do I struggle? Yes, of course. Deadlines are hard. Knowing when I'm going to have that spark of productivity is difficult. And so, in my 9 to 5 job, that was, you know, a lot of times what I struggled with was, you know, is my brain going to work today is kind of how I felt, which may not be the healthiest way to think about it. But that's how I felt, you know, on the day-to-day. Like, I had no idea. It really felt like, you know, I wasn't in the driver's seat all the time. For me, recognizing what I do excel at, like I'm good at my job. I'm great up, you know, problem-solving and puzzles like analytical thinking. Even though I'm a creative, a lot of people are like, you're a creative and you do business ops? I think it's because of, you know, my neurodivergences, I don't think that one has to exist without the other. Like for me again, I think the fact that I'm good at analytical thinking is derived from just my unique way of looking at things because of these neurodivergencies. And so, I'm really good at it, but the part I'm really bad to is making sure my brain is on on the days that I need it to be on. So, finding a space and being able to kind of mold the external factors around me helps a lot and that's been across the board in school. I really struggled in school, but when I was able to control for those things and just my day-to-day life as far as like, you know, keeping a house together and keeping myself together and in my various jobs, you have to compensate for what you struggle with internally with the external. And so and you know, that is absolutely a privilege. The fact that I was able to find this position where I could, you know, leave my 9 to 5 job and make that work for me and be able to work in a space where it's fine to be open with, you know, different divergences and say, "Hey, this is where I'm at, this is what I need." And being able to advocate for yourself and you have a team behind you that's like, "Yeah, totally. We understand." And being able to again, we're also a small, a small company. So, being able to work around that is absolutely a privilege. In my 9 to 5 job, it was more difficult, but again, it was just really about staying on top of those external factors. So, like for me, I know I don't work well in, you know, chaos. So, making sure like it's a hard well that I have to make sure my desk is clean at all times. A lot of calendar reminders, you know, finding the systems that work for me. So, I would say the stereotype is true and it isn't true. It on the surface seems untrue because I work in business ops, but you know, my struggles are the same. It's just how I've created systems around them that has allowed me to be able to do this job. Eleni: Totally. So, you know you just mentioned giving up your 9 to 5. I know when we spoke previously, like you mentioned, like during the pandemic, you know, you had a number of revelations and said many which led to you being part of the Great Resignation. Delia: I did. Eleni: So, you talk a little bit about what some of those revelations were and what led you to the revelations? Delia: Oh, boy do I. I was at a job that I loved, frankly. And then, you know, the pandemic hit. And I think, you know, it changed what your job was really like. I was working for the Smithsonian. It was a great job. I'm doing business operations there and going into work every day, you know, seeing the museums every day, my coworkers, all of that stuff I loved. It felt like we were doing something important. I mean, you know, nobody like we used to always say nobody's going to die because, you know, there's other sections of the government you can work for where that is true, but no one's dying at a museum. So, it's very low-stakes, but important work at the same time. And so, it was fast-paced, just enough to keep my brain engaged, but not so fast-paced I didn't have a bad work-life balance. So, these are things, you know, I loved all of it. Then the pandemic hits and we go to a work-from-home status and oh my gosh, it was so bad for my ADHD. And so, trying to start to pick apart, why is it suddenly changed? It's the same job, right? And I was able to kind of sit down and really think about it and realize all of the things that I loved about my job were external. Like the actual day-to-day of my job was no different than the job that I had before was no different than the job that I had before. Like we're doing business operations, things like I mean, you can, I'm not going to say that you can get that anywhere, but, you know, and there were factors, other factors too, you know, you know, I got a new boss, things like that that just made me realize, like, "OK, if I can't control for these external factors that were making my job so enjoyable and my ADHD is, is, as I say, acting up so badly, like what am I doing?" And you know, on top of that, with the basic realizations that everybody was having, you know, of like "What is priority in my life? Am I really living if I'm working at 9 to 5?," you know, those other basic revelations all came together and I just had to have a conversation with my partner, like, OK. And we've always kind of known because I've struggled in other jobs. You know, there might be a time where I need to not work a traditional 9 to 5, like it just may not work for me. So, we've always been putting money aside for that day that maybe come. So again, it's a big privilege. But you know, finally we had that conversation and I was like, "Working from home is not for me. If I don't have these external stimulants and I can't control all of these external factors, like I'm just floundering and why am I forcing myself to do that if I don't have to? Like, what are what are we doing that that's no way to live if you can help it." And, you know, I'm very cognizant again, because I have friends who are also have these problems. And it is a lot of bouncing job to job to see if you can find a way to keep your brain stimulated enough so that you can perform well at the job. Like I have been there, I totally understand. But yeah, it just was finally in conversation because at that time — it's now been a year — there was no end in sight. And so, I would have been struggling for a very long time and my job performance would have been struggling. And I as a kid who, you know, you always hear about, "Oh, former gifted kids, they have it so hard." But that's what I was I was, you know, the smart kid growing up. And so, I also have a lot of struggle with performance. I want to perform at my peak all the time, which if anybody, you know, not only has ADHD, but any neurodivergency, you know that that's not always possible. Eleni: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to acknowledge, like. That, you know, there are various components of a job, like it's not always just about the tasks themselves. And like we talk about that a lot on this show that sometimes the environment can be the, you know, most enabling or disabling factor in things. So, really it's about like finding a task that you enjoy in an environment that's right for you. Like the combination really does have to come together for it to be... Delia: Absolutely. Eleni: ...the right fit. Yeah, I know that you talked a little bit about like systems. Like were there any other systems that you would like to share that relate to how your brain works and like how you, you know, are successful in your day-to-day? Delia: Sure. I think, you know, a lot of it's been learning as I go and what works for me won't work for everybody. But absolutely, one system that's worked really well for me was accidentally bullet journaling. And what I mean by that is over time I developed the system of to-do list keeping a running to-do list that every day the goal is not to get everything checked off. The goal was to make sure I could see because I have a big one of my biggest issues is besides executive function is object permanence like I have zero zilch. If it's not right in front of me, it does not exist. So, I kept a running to-do list that had everything I ever needed to do, and I kept it on my desk at work and then transitioning to working from home and working for Black Nerds Create, keeping it on my desk at home, just a running to-do list. And every day, at the end of the day, I made myself rewrite it for the next day. So, I had a clean, new one, had checked whatever I checked off I didn't continue it. And I had symbols and stuff. And one of my friends who also has ADHD, she told me that's bullet journaling, which I did not know. It was just a system that worked for me. And I know a lot of people with ADHD would say, you know, that doesn't work for me. I have a really hard time with habits and you know, habits are hard for ADHD. They don't happen in the natural way that they happen for neurotypical people. Can't tell you what the difference is. That's just what I've heard, because I have the brain that I have. So, it is difficult because it wasn't a choice for me to read in. And when you're limited on choices, if you're having a low capacity day, it's hard to make that choice that I need to do this to-do list because that's what keeps my brain together. But yeah. So, you know, forgiving yourself for those low capacities where maybe you didn't do your to-do list and you kind of fell off. That's a system that's worked really well for me. Eleni: It sounds like you have, like, a lot of self-awareness around, like, what works for you and what doesn't. Like, how did you discover all of those things?Delia: Oh, so much trial and error. Again, like I think we said earlier, I was diagnosed late in high school. And so, I think for people who've gotten diagnosed later, just to cope and survive, you come up with a lot of these mechanisms that you don't realize they're coping mechanisms. But in order to be a functioning human, you have to figure out something. So, you're just trying a lot of things. So, I would say, to be quite honest, desperation a lot of the time is, is what has brought me to my biggest breakthroughs of just kind of being at a breaking point because, you know, I'm talking now, having found a job that works for me and a system that works for me. And, you know, I quit my traditional 9 to 5, and that comes from a lot of privilege. But don't be mistaken. Like a lot of people with different, you know, neurodivergences, like I've had a lot of low points in my life where ADHD has been nearly debilitating, like I couldn't function. And so, in those moments of desperation of like I literally will try anything, something has to give because I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to like literally flunk this grade of high school. Like I need, something has to give. Those are the moments where I've kind of, you know, thrown everything at the wall to see what sticks. And that's kind of how I come up with my systems. And I wouldn't recommend that way — don't wait to the point of desperation — but I would recommend just being open-minded and trying whatever you can. Because I have also had the mentality of "Oh, that won't work for me," or "That may work for them, but they don't know what it's like to have my specific type of ADHD." I think for a lot of people who are neurodivergent, we get into thinking like, "Oh, our version, though, is very difficult," or "We're really struggling with this specific piece," but try, if you can, to be open-minded and just try it. I mean, the worst thing that can happen is it doesn't work for you and you're all right. But, you know, you can say you've tried it and maybe you learned something along the way because even systems that haven't worked for me, I've learned why they didn't work for me. And I've come to understand my ADHD just a little bit more. Eleni: Thank you so much for talking to me today. Delia: Thanks very much for having me. It was so much fun. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Underserved Podcast Network. This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show, or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got that job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out our show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at U.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot O-R-G slash workplace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
From Leonardo da Vinci to Muhammad Ali: Learning and Thinking Differently in History
Did Leonardo da Vinci have dyslexia? Did ADHD cause Babe Ruth to focus on baseball? Historians say it’s possible many major figures from the past had learning and thinking differences. However, it’s hard to know for sure about people who lived 100 years ago or more. And for many—especially women and people of color—there aren’t enough records to let us guess. But here are some accomplished individuals who made a big impact on history, from centuries past to more recent times. They overcame challenges and may inspire your child to do the same.Leonardo da Vinci (1452–1519)As an artist, inventor, scientist, engineer, and writer, Leonardo da Vinci had many talents. He also had interesting habits, like writing backward, spelling strangely, and not following through on projects. Today, we understand that these traits can all be characteristics of dyslexia and other learning and thinking differences. For example, his ability to create imaginative drawings is a strength shared by some people with ADHD. Whether or not he had dyslexia or ADHD, Leonardo used his strengths to earn a place as one of history’s greatest geniuses.Alexander Graham Bell (1847–1922)Bell reinvented the field of communications by creating the first telephone. But years earlier, he struggled in school. Even though he was gifted at problem solving, it’s thought that he had trouble reading and writing, possibly as a result of dyslexia. He was eventually homeschooled by his mother. With her help, Bell learned to manage his challenges. And he went on to change the world.Thomas Edison (1847–1931)School didn’t come easily for Edison, either. He was considered “difficult” and hyperactive. Historians believe he may have had ADHD and dyslexia. But his appetite for knowledge was huge. He developed effective ways to study and learn on his own. As a result, Edison’s unique way of tackling problems helped him make history. He shaped modern life by inventing the phonograph, the motion picture camera, and the light bulb.Henry Ford (1863–1947)Industrial revolutionary Henry Ford founded the Ford Motor Company and transformed the transportation industry. Ford, who preferred hands-on learning to reading, may have had dyslexia. If he did have trouble with reading, it didn’t stop him from creating an industrial empire.There also may be learning differences in his family. Ford’s great-granddaughter Anne (former chair of the board of the National Center for Learning Disabilities) writes and speaks about her daughter Allegra’s learning disabilities.Pablo Picasso (1881–1973)According to many accounts, the world-famous artist may have had dyslexia. He expressed feelings that many kids who learn and think differently have. “Don’t think I didn’t try [to learn at school],” he said. “I tried hard. I would start but immediately be lost.” Fortunately, his father, an art teacher, encouraged him to develop his artistic talents. His unique vision of the world came through in his powerful works of art. The rest is art history.Agatha Christie (1890–1976)This famous writer’s mysteries had a big impact on how suspense stories were written in the 20th century and beyond. But historians think that Christie may have had trouble with reading and writing. They don’t know whether it was dysgraphia or dyslexia (or both). But they do know that she dictated all of her famous works, possibly because of learning differences. Those novels still rank among the world’s most popular books. And characters she created, like Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple, continue to entertain readers today.Babe Ruth (1895–1948)As a young child, baseball great George Herman “Babe” Ruth Jr. always seemed to be running wild, getting into trouble, and fighting. That’s why his parents sent him to a strict boarding school that emphasized discipline, learning a trade, and sports. There, he discovered his love of baseball and honed his skills. Today historians believe that Ruth may have had ADHD. ADHD can make it hard to pay attention, but it can also lead people to focus on a topic they’re deeply engaged with. Maybe this helped Ruth become the “Sultan of Swat.”Harry Belafonte (1927–)Belafonte dropped out of school at 17 because of his trouble with reading. He was working as a janitor’s assistant when he discovered his love of theater. He started singing to pay for acting classes. That’s when his career took off. It wasn’t until his late 20s that he learned there might be a reason for his reading problems: dyslexia. The “King of Calypso,” Belafonte won a Tony and three Grammys, as well as the first Emmy to go to an African American. He helped break down racial barriers in entertainment in America. And he’s used his fame to support the civil rights movement and many other humanitarian causes.Muhammad Ali (1942–2016)One of the greatest boxers of all time, Ali struggled with dyslexia. He’s said he could barely read his high school textbooks. Nonetheless, he managed to graduate. He became an Olympic gold medalist at the age of 18. And he was world heavyweight boxing champion at 22. He’s also remembered today for having strong principles. He refused to fight in the Vietnam War, even though this damaged his career. And his determination inspired Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Later in life, Ali worked to encourage more young African Americans to enjoy reading.Carol Moseley Braun (1947–)At the age of 8, Braun was bused across Chicago to an all-white school. Upset that she was put in the “dumb row,” she figured out ways to manage her dyslexia. She used a ruler to help her focus on words and numbers. And she re-read books and re-did math problems. A semester later, she was in the “smart row.” Her grit and determination later helped her become the first female African American senator. She later served as ambassador to New Zealand. Today she owns her own organic food company. And she’s worked to take away the stigma of dyslexia.Erin Brockovich-Ellis (1960–)When she was growing up, Brockovich-Ellis was teased by her classmates for having dyslexia. She was also told she would never make it through college. But she read through thousands of pages of legal documents to help bring a landmark case against a power company accused of polluting water in a small town. Even though she had no formal legal training, she helped win the largest settlement ever for a lawsuit of that kind: $333 million. Today, she continues her work as a consumer advocate. And she’s spoken out about her dyslexia and how it’s affected her.
In ItThis is how we make it through
In an article for the New York Times, Andrew Solomon wrote, “The fact that you wouldn’t have chosen something doesn’t mean you can’t find joyful meaning in it.” In an article for the New York Times, Andrew Solomon wrote, “The fact that you wouldn’t have chosen something doesn't mean you can't find joyful meaning in it.”In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Bob Cunningham hear from families about the (sometimes unexpected) ways joy creeps into everyday life — even on the most challenging days.From learning to ride a bike (as an adult!) to making fart noises at the dinner table, this is how families with kids who learn and think differently make it through.Listen in. Then subscribe to In It on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts.Episode transcriptAmanda: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin, a writer and in-house expert for Understood.org and a parent to kids who learn differently. Bob: And I'm Bob Cunningham. I'm a career educator and a parent. And I'm the executive director for learning development at Understood. Amanda: And we are "In It." Bob: This is a podcast from Understood. On this show, we hear from parents and caregivers and sometimes kids. And we'll offer support and advice for families whose kids are struggling with reading, math, focus, and other learning and thinking differences. Amanda: Today, we're talking about finding joy and beauty in everyday life — while also managing the challenges that come with raising kids who learn differently. The idea for this episode started with an article I read in the New York Times, by Andrew Solomon. His name may be familiar. He writes a lot about families that are different in some way. This article was about the work we as a society need to do to overcome these sort of pervasive negative and kind of uninformed views of disability. Amanda: And there was one line in it that I especially love as a parent of kids with autism and ADHD. Solomon wrote, "The fact that you wouldn't have chosen something doesn't mean you can't find joyful meaning in it." And boy, did that resonate with me.Amanda: It's nice to start talking about the great things about having kids, regardless of whether they learn anything differently. Because a lot of the time we're talking about what we find difficult, and to be able to talk about what's really just joyous in having kids, I think, is something every parent probably should be looking at, at some point or another. But first, Bob, tell me what "joy" means to you. Bob: So for me, "joy" is that little bit of overwhelming feeling you get, right? So it goes beyond just being happy or being excited. It's that kind of sense of being overwhelmed by what is happening that makes you feel so happy. Amanda: I, you know, I think your definition of "joy" is very similar to mine. I don't think of it as sort of that everyday contentment that, you know, things are going well. It's that moment that makes you like laugh out loud. So once we started talking about this, I was reminded of a family my kids and I got to hang out with over the summer, Lindsay and Kevin. And we're just going to use their first names today. They're raising two kids who learn and think differently. And when I found they and their family were going to be passing through my town in Maine, I suggested we meet up. And we all went out to lunch, and our time together was — it just made a really powerful impression on me. First of all, our two boys are very close in age, never had met, and they were just joyous together. And then there was this one moment after lunch when Kevin and his son Sam just started skipping down the street like they didn't have a care in the world. Kevin, do you remember skipping down the street like that? Kevin: I do. Yeah. And we'd just had a good lunch and we were — he was feeling silly. And I think what's important to say about that is that he used to not be able to skip. You know, he wears braces on his feet. And that was a challenge for him to get to the point where even could skip. So when he wants to skip now, I'm there. I want to skip with him. I know how hard he worked to get there and how much fun it is for him. So I take those chances whenever I get them. Amanda: Sam is 8 years old. His sister Maggie is 12. When asked to describe Maggie, Lindsay says right off that she is ferociously brave. Lindsay: She is the person who will do parasailing 400 feet in the air with my mom.Amanda: Maggie loves art, theater, soccer, and science. Lindsay says she has what's called a language-based learning disability. Lindsay: So for her, her working memory and her short-term memory are smaller than other kids. And so for her what that means is it's sometimes hard for her to comprehend or to take multi-step directions. And sometimes it's really hard for her to express herself. Amanda: Maggie's brother Sam has a different personality. Lindsay says he's super silly, very emotionally expressive, and all heart. Lindsay: People at school call him the mayor, because he goes around and says hi to everybody. Amanda: Sam has some difficulty with reading like his sister. But most of his challenges are physical. He struggles more with motor skills. Kevin and Lindsay talk about their kids with so much warmth and humor and pride, but they say it took them some work to get there. Both Kevin and Lindsay loved school when they were little. And success came easily to them, so they figured their kids would be the same. When Maggie's kindergarten teacher first told them she thought there was some sort of problem, they were floored. Kevin: We were blindsided with that news in kindergarten and it really — really took us back. You know, there'd never been any signs in preschool. The teachers always said, "Oh, she's such a delight. She's got a great attitude. She's doing just great." They didn't catch any of this stuff because she put on such a brave face. And so it really — it surprised us. And also, we didn't know how to deal with it, because it was not something that we ourselves had been through, right?Amanda: What was it to you when it looked like school wasn't going to be as easy for her as it had been for you? Kevin: It was definitely disappointing. I mean, I mean, because, you know, we had a certain — you know when you have kids, you have a certain vision of how things are going to go. And it's always rosy and optimistic, right? But parenthood is a series of steps where you realize that your kids are like everyone else. So they're not perfect. And we had steps like this before. Both Maggie and Sam have vision problems. So they had to get glasses when they were really young. And that was our first moment of, oh, wait, our kids aren't perfect, you know? And it seems like such a stupid thing now. But at the time, just Maggie getting glasses was heartbreaking for us. Now it's a tiny thing. We don't even think about it, you know. The news in kindergarten was an even bigger blow to that idea that this wasn't the path that we'd imagined for our kids. First Maggie, then — and then Sam later on. And yet, you know, that's the path they're on. And you can get upset that it's not the perfect way it's gonna be. Or you can realize this is who your kid is and you've got to meet them where they are. Amanda: It sounds like they've redefined your expectations of what parenting would be. Does that sound accurate? Lindsay: A hundred percent, I think in two ways. I was thinking about this idea of joy. And I think, you know, we live in a university town that sends tons of kids to Ivy League colleges. And, you know, the conversations at the school board meeting and around town are just about how stressed our kids are. And there's this great author that calls it the checklisted childhood. Like we're doing everything we can to sort of build our kids' resumes so they get into the perfect college and get the perfect job. So I would say one of the most beautiful ways, and one of the most freeing things that having the kids we have did was — it kind of threw all of that out the window. Like I feel very free that our kids do not have to compete with other kids. And that is not saying we're lowering our expectations at all for our kids. It's saying, what we're gonna do is really figure out the kids we have and what's going to make them thrive. And so it doesn't matter if so-and-so is going to college and so-and-so is going on to do this. In some way, that was like so relieving to not even have to be a part of that conversation or to feel influenced by it. Because I think we learn early on like we have to know the kids we have, and the way that they're going to be the most successful is really figuring out what's right for them. Amanda: But parenting their kids hasn't just been a matter of adjusting expectations. It's also allowed for some incredible growth. Like when Lindsay saw Maggie struggling to learn how to ride a bike.Lindsay: I never learned how to ride a bike. Lindsay: And the reason I never learned how to ride a bike was not for lack of trying. Or my parents trying. So we did the traditional thing where my father held on to the back seat of my bike. And, you know, what's supposed to happen is you're supposed to be riding and all of a sudden your dad lets go in you're supposed to have this great moment where you realize you're doing it. And what actually happened was I just kept falling and falling and falling. And I did not like to fail as a kid. So I decided I was not going to ride a bike because my father was clearly sabotaging me, which doesn't make sense now. But anyway, fast-forward to Maggie learning how to ride a bike. I'm 38 years old. She's trying so hard. And, you know, I feel like such a hypocrite because I'm telling — and this is so true of so many things in her life where I'm pushing her to be brave and bold and do all these things when I'm not really doing them myself. So she and I basically made a deal that if she learned how to ride a bike without me holding on to it, that I would go out, I would buy a bike, and I would learn to ride. Lindsay: And so that's exactly what we did. It was not pretty. Her elementary school had a big hill that goes down sort of, a street that goes down a big hill to her school. And so I used to make her — she really wanted to ride bikes to school — so I would make her go to school a half an hour early because I didn't want any of the adults to see me flying down the hill on a bike, screaming and terrified and potentially falling. So we would go early until I built up the confidence to just be able to ride normally. And now we now we ride all the time.Lindsay: And so I'm really grateful for her that, you know, I can't tell her to be brave and tell her to keep trying when it's hard if I don't do it myself. Bob: We heard from some of you about how you found joy raising kids with differences. Here's Beth.Beth: Patrick was born with Down syndrome, but he was also born with a heart defect and he had to be — have open heart surgery at 9 weeks old. And I had two other older children, Jack and Mary Kate. But I wasn't sure if Patrick was my last child or not. And so every part of his babyhood felt so special. And I savored it. And I felt gifted with that slow unfolding. It felt like those slow-motion videos that you see of a flower unfolding. Beth: In fact, I remember so clearly one time watching him spend an entire day figuring out how to open a kitchen cupboard. And as he was doing that, I thought, you know, Jack and Mary Kate just figured this out so quickly. I never even noticed when they figured it out. They — I mean, it was like I opened my eyes and now they know how to open the cupboard. Here, I'm watching you figure it out all day long. And by the end of the day, he figured it out. And it was such a special moment to get to see him really figuring these things out. Beth: I wasn't upset with him that it took him longer. I just thought it was cool that I could notice it. Bob: So I can remember a mom talking to me at length about her son. And her son had a lot of difficulty with a lot of things, especially around school, and that transferred into a lot of difficulty with a lot of things at home. Bob: And so one of the things that he started to do when he was kind of a young teenager is he really jumped into cooking. Fortunately for him, his mom and dad realized like, oh, this is really turning him on. He's really excited about this, right? So they encouraged it. They started to take him places to learn more about cooking. And the mom was, you know, talking to me about this over a period of months and then over a period of a year and stuff. And I can vividly remember kind of the last conversation I had with her about it. And it had entirely shifted from how into cooking her son became, to how into cooking she became. And this was somebody who never really liked to cook and was a very busy executive. And I remember her saying in the end, if it hadn't been for how excited he got, I never would have figured out that I actually love cooking. Amanda: Oh, that's so cool. So like she found joy through him finding his passion.Bob: Yeah. Amanda: And you know, and I think that's so important because we need to find those moments of joy, like whether it's from our kids, whether it's in our kids, or those kinds of things. And we definitely heard that from Lindsay and Kevin. But I don't want to give the impression that Lindsay and Kevin are superhuman and always patient and loving and understanding parents, because that's setting the bar pretty high. And they are the first to tell you that it's not moments of beauty and grace all day, every day. Kevin: I remember, we had a — we were having dinner one time, and it was one of those nights where both kids were acting up for whatever reason. And I'm not even sure it had anything to do with their differences. But it's just, you know, it's like a stressful night. We'd all had kind of a crappy day and we were all in a snippy mood. It was a very serious, tense moment. And Lindsay just stopped. She was about to lose it. And she put her mouth to her upper forearm and made a fart noise. And it was hysterical. It just cut through the tension of the table. And we all just started howling. It was just stupid and silly. And it just brought us all back to: What are we upset about? What are we doing here? They're kids! Have fun with them. Amanda: Such good advice, right? They're kids. Bob: Very good advice. And you know, we heard from another parent, Michelle, whose 17-year-old son Avi has autism. Michelle tells us she's gotten a lot of joy out of raising Avi, and she actually credits him with making his three siblings kinder people and with bringing lots of music and dancing into the house. But that doesn't mean she never struggles.Michelle: You know, it's an interesting balancing act, because I want to allow myself the permission to be human and to say sometimes this is really hard because sometimes it is really hard. And I feel like not allowing myself to understand that — and experiencing that — is not fair to myself, you know? And I don't want it to get pent up and turn into resentment. So usually, like in those moments when I feel that way, my husband or I — we're very good at bouncing off of each other. So neither one of us are allowed to be in one of those slumps at the same time. Michelle: If I'm in a slump first, he's not allowed to be and vice versa. That's number one. Number two is that we'll often remind ourselves of something that Avi has said or done that will just turn us into laughing within minutes. So somehow we try to bring in some of what who Avi is and remembering that great sense of humor and remembering that great, fun-loving, musical, happy kid. And that kind of helps bring us up. And I always try to remind myself that I think Avi's biggest problem with autism is us — meaning we are working on trying to fit him into a world that he doesn't naturally fit into. Michelle: But if he's not being pushed to fit into that world that he doesn't actually fit into and he is being allowed to play, dance, and sing and do what he wants, and it doesn't matter if he does that in a grocery store, because we're not worried about appropriateness, he's fine and happy. Michelle: You know, sometimes trying to remind myself about that happy kid, and that focus and whatever that issue is that's bothering me at the moment, can often usually just pull me out. Bob: She's so right about the grocery store. And, you know, when you have kids with stuff going on, other people think that's difficult for you or you need pity. Kevin, he really bristles at that notion. Kevin: When Maggie gets down about herself and the challenges she faces, we've actually pulled over the car one time and be like, look, all your friends have something to deal with, too. That one is emotionally fragile and cries on the soccer field anytime the ball gets taken from her. That one, you know, can't focus on this and that. Every kid is imperfect, right? And we just happen to know the way in which ours are imperfect. That doesn't mean they're broken or bad or wrong. Kevin: It's just that they're different, right? Every kid is different. And so there are these parents who I think, look at you like, oh, well, you must be dealing with it. But you're dealing with something else. I know that your kids have some issues, too. And if you don't know it yet, it's coming at some point, right?Amanda: Right. Kevin: Don't look at me. Look at your kids. Bob: So that's Kevin's message to folks who aren't raising kids who learn and think differently. Amanda: And here's Lindsay's message for those who are: That joy you're cultivating isn't just important for you. Lindsay: I think if we send them the message that there isn't room for joy or that this is so hard or such a life sentence, like whether we realize it or not, our kids are picking up on that. And, you know, I think they're working harder than most adults we know, because they're grappling with so much. And so, you know, I think it's key to their survival — having that belief and being able to create those moments. You know, I think one of the ways that I've tried to keep my perspective on this is like dealing with my own stuff, getting help. Talking to other parents, finding a community of parents and kids who learn and think differently so that I'm not processing that stuff with them. That's not fair to them. I think, you know, our job — I think my parents were the ones who sort of said your job from now on is to be a detective and to watch them and to figure out what they're good at and figure out what brings them alive and to lean in to that. Lindsay: And so I guess my only closing thought is just how important our job is as parents to make those moments of joy and to make things right and to sort of be detectives and figure out what gives them joy and to do more of that. Amanda: Lindsay makes such a good point about the need to deal with your own stuff, right?Bob: For sure. And it's not only our own stuff. It's also kind of just the way we expect things to go, right? And we expect things to go a certain way because that's how it went for us, right? That's how it went for us when we were kids. That's how it went for our other child. That's how it went for the kids we watched our friends raise — that sort of stuff. So you get your ideas about the way it should go. It's not going to go the way you expected it to go, necessarily. I think we have as parents a lot of influence on it. But if you go into it thinking you're gonna control it, you're way off the mark. Amanda: And I think we have less influence than we actually think we do sometimes. I find myself having those moments where I'm like, wait a minute, why did I say no? Why am I not letting you do this thing that it doesn't matter if you do or not? It's these things as parents, we have sort of let go off and then just like finding the humor in it. Bob: The other thing is, look, you know, I have to remember, my wife has to remember, all of our listeners have to remember: Parenting is a long game, right? It's what happens over time. And each moment is far less important than you think it might be. So if something doesn't go well or you don't react the way you think you should or you have, you know, spent the last couple years really focusing on what's wrong and what's a problem and how can we help and what can we do better, it's never too late to sort of say, hey, let's start. You know, every week we're going to talk about one thing that was an experience of joy for all of us. Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," a podcast from Understood. Our website is Understood.org, where you can find all sorts of free resources for people raising kids who learn and think differently. Bob: We also really want to hear what you think of our show. Go to u.org/podcast to share your thoughts and also to find resources. That's the letter "U" as in Understood, dot O R G slash podcast. Amanda: You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcast, iTunes, Spotify — wherever you download your podcasts from. It's a great way to let other people know about "In It." And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Send it to somebody who needs to find a little joy in raising their child. Or just send a link to your child's teacher. Bob: You can also subscribe to "In It" on Apple Podcasts. Follow us on Spotify or keep up with us however you take your podcasts. Between episodes, you can find Understood on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, or YouTube. And you can visit our website, U — that's the letter "U" — dot o r g.Bob: Our show is produced by Julie Subrin and Sara Ivry. Mike Errico wrote our theme music, and Laura Kusnyer is our executive director of editorial content. Amanda: Thanks for being in it with us. Bob: "In It" is a production of Understood.
6 myths about 504 plans
A 504 plan can offer kids support and accommodations in school. But there are many misconceptions about these plans. Here are six common myths about 504 plans — and the facts to bust them.Myth #1: A 504 plan is the same as an IEP.Fact: Both 504 plans and IEPs can help kids thrive in school. But they’re covered by different laws and work differently. The point of a 504 plan is to give a child equal access to learning at school. An IEP, on the other hand, is focused on special education services. Here’s a chart on the differences between 504 plans and IEPs. Myth #2: A 504 plan isn’t as good as an IEP.Fact: A good plan is the one that fits a child’s needs. A child with severe learning challenges probably needs special education through an IEP. But another child who's doing OK in school may only need certain accommodations through a 504 plan. And some kids, even kids who learn and think differently, don’t need a formal plan at all.Myth #3: A 504 plan can only give accommodations, not services. Fact: Some people think that a 504 plan can’t include services. But that’s not true. The U.S. Department of Education says a 504 plan can include school services. For example, some 504 plans offer things like speech therapy or study skills classes. It’s less common, though. And the services a 504 plan offers may not be the same as those available in an IEP. Myth #4: Students can’t get 504 accommodations for advanced or AP classes.Fact: There are many kids with 504 plans who are in advanced or AP classes. Kids who learn and think differently can even be gifted. A child with a 504 plan in an advanced class has the same rights as in other classes — the right to equal access to learning. This may mean accommodations, like text-to-speech technology or extra time for assignments. Myth #5: 504 plans are for kids with ADHD.Fact: 504 plans are not just for one type of challenge or difficulty. Some kids with 504 plans have ADHD. Some have learning disabilities. Others may have severe allergies, trouble with mobility, or other challenges. Keep in mind, too, that some kids with ADHD are eligible for IEPs, not just 504 plans. Myth #6: There are 504 plans in college.Fact: There are no IEPs or 504 plans in college. Students who qualify do have the right to accommodations in college. But it won’t be through a 504 plan. Colleges also have different requirements for getting accommodations. And in college, students (not the school) are responsible for asking for the accommodations.Read about common accommodations you might find in a 504 plan. And uncover myths about IEPs.
ADHD Aha!Procrastination, rushing, and ADHD (Yasmeen’s story)
Yasmeen would always wait until the last minute to do homework and assignments. Then came college, and Yasmeen couldn’t skate by anymore. Yasmeen (they/them) was a perpetual procrastinator. They would always wait until the last minute to write a paper or start an assignment. But then came a tough college course and an equally tough professor. Yasmeen’s old methods were no longer working, which set them on the path to an ADHD diagnosis. Yasmeen reflects back on growing up with undiagnosed ADHD, specifically their struggle with homework. Yasmeen, who works as a user researcher, also shares what they’ve learned about the over- and underdiagnosis of ADHD in the Black community.Related resourcesWhy kids with ADHD rush through homeworkChild procrastinating? Why kids struggle with time managementADHD in black children: In It with Dr. Tumaini CokerEpisode transcriptYasmeen: So, when I was in my junior year of college, I had an English class that I needed to pass in order to get my minor. And we had sort of one final paper that was worth a lot for that class. And so I remember knowing that my usual routine of going to the library two or three hours before class and doing the paper that was due that day wasn't going to work for this paper, um, in particular. And I tried to do a different approach. I spent a couple of days writing this paper. I got so much feedback from other people about the paper. And I felt really, really proud of, sort of, the work I put in. But then once I submitted the paper and he started talking about the prompt we were answering, I realized that I didn't read the prompt properly and I missed a key point that he wanted to see in the paper. And I wrote a completely different prompt that he didn't want. And I just remembered that day, just, like, sinking into my chair, and I just started crying in that class because I knew, even though I tried my best, I still failed.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!" a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Yasmeen Adams. Yasmeen is a user researcher, and they work with me at Understood. Welcome, Yasmeen.Yasmeen: Thank you for having me.Laura: When you got to Understood, you had not yet been diagnosed with ADHD, is that right?Yasmeen: No, no, no, I hadn't. Laura: But your "aha" moment wasn't necessarily at Understood. It sounds like working at Understood kind of nudge you towards getting diagnosed, but you had an "aha" moment when you were in college — your junior year, is that right?Yasmeen: Yeah, so in my junior year of college, I was finishing up my English minor. And there was one class that you had to take. I forgot what the exact class was, but there was a professor that was sort of known in the English department of being, like, someone who was, like, really, tough, like, a tough grader. A lot of the people in my major kind of described him as, like, a pain in the ass, to be honest. And so he was the only person who was teaching the specific class that I needed in order to finish up my English minor. And I was sort of notorious by a lot of my friends of being, like, a chronic procrastinator. I was not the person who would be responsible enough to, you know, oh, if I have a 10-page paper, do you let me do two pages a day so that, you know, I'm not too anxious about finishing the paper. What I would do is that I would actually do it the day of, or, like, the day before and just sit in the library for, like, two hours and, like, bang out a 10-page paper and call it a day.I look back on it now and it's like, wow, that was, I was a little, that was a bit insane for doing that. But for me, it was sort of like, one, I couldn't really break down things into tasks. It was always like, let me just do this one big assignment and in one go and, like, get through it. And there was also, like, this weird sort of like rush I felt while doing it because it was almost like, I don't know if it's similar to like how chefs are on, like, cooking shows and they have, like, 30-minute timers and they have to, like, whip out a dish and, like, hope and pray that, like, they'll get through.I felt like that was sort of the same rush I felt. Where it's like, wow, I'm, like, really anxious. I'm, like, down on the wire. I only have 30 minutes before I have to get to class, and I have 250 words to still finish up. But it was the, like, adrenaline rush of actually getting it done and, like, the relief to get it done. I would do this constantly.And I would never really be punished for it via, like, having bad grades or anything like that. And I sort of provide this context to help establish why this moment in my junior year of college was, like, so devastating. Because I remember, like, submitting a paper in for one of our first assignments, and then I got feedback on it and I got, like, a C on it, which I’d never, I’d never gotten. And he was just like, "You were jumping all over the place in the essay, you were doing this, you were doing that." And I was like, "I never had this feedback from everybody else. Why am I getting it from him?" And I think, like, the breaking point for me was there was either, like, a final paper or, like, it was a pretty significant paper to my grade. And based on the feedback I was getting from other papers and the grades I was getting, I was like, for this paper that I have to submit, I actually can't do what I usually have done. I actually have to, like, really sit down and, like, pay attention and, like, break this up so that I'm presenting the best possible paper I can for this class.And so I spent, like, two or three days writing this paper, getting feedback from other people, working with the English resource center at my school. I did, like, a lot of, like, preparation for this paper, which I've never done for any other class throughout all the time I've been in school. And I submitted it; I was really proud of it. I was, like, yeah, I'm going to get an A, like, I actually destroyed this paper. And then I remembered he was, like, talking about the paper and he was just, like — he mentioned something in the instructions that I completely looked over for this research project. And I realized in that moment, I had made, like, a really dire mistake, and I essentially wrote a different type of paper than he was asking for.And I just remembered, like, sitting in class and kind of just, like, sinking down in my chair and just started, like, crying. Because I was like, I did all of this hard work. I put in so much time and resources that I never had to in other classes, for me to still fail and not do well. And that, I think, for me, it was kind of a big breaking point to where I was like, maybe I should really see what's going on with this. Because I always, like, kind of suspected it was related to ADHD, but I was like, "Well, it works for me, so I'm not going to really change it." But then it was, like, after that moment, I was like, "I really should probably consider something's wrong."Laura: Am I right that you got good grades for all of your life, leading up to this?Yasmeen: Oh yeah, definitely. I was definitely, like, an A or B student most of, like, my classes. The only thing that got me in trouble was, again, this idea of following instructions. Even when in, like, kindergarten, like I remember just, I remember teachers would say, "Hey, go right," and I would go left; "go up," and I'd go down. That was sort of me. I never really liked the idea of having, like, things being set out to me in the form of, like, commands or, like, actions. And I never understood why I had to do it, so I would always, like, not do it. Laura: Yeah. And just to be clear, I don't think that actually getting a C is a terrible thing. It's not a bad grade. It's average. It's just, I have a feeling from your perspective that it was like, like a knife to the heart.Yasmeen: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Because I'd literally never gotten a C, up until that point. And I was like, "Whoa, I don't want to be a C student." And it was definitely, like, a real crush to me cause I was, like, "I always did well, so why am I not doing well in this class particularly?" Laura: Did you feel, like, exposed when the professor kind of discovered your symptoms or your methods?Yasmeen: Yeah, like, I definitely felt, one, like, embarrassed a little bit. I remember, like, everyone was looking at me and just, like, "Yikes, how did you get that wrong?" And I also kind of felt that from that professor at that time, "It was clear for you to not do that and yet you did it." And so I felt, like, a little embarrassed because I felt, like, "Am I the only one that didn't get this? Really, nobody?" And I think also a lot of it, too, was that again, like, I felt like I could always kind of, like, skate by in a lot of classes. Because even I knew, like, it wasn't always the best work I put out when I had to rush, or I was, like, in sort of that crunch time mode, but I would still get really good feedback. But when it came to him, it was kind of, like, he saw through the fluff I would put a lot in writing. He was the one who was able to kind of see, like, the cracks in my foundation a little bit.And I think that's what really also irritated me. And it kind of brought up a lot of insecurities about, like, my own intelligence. Was I actually smart, or was I just kind of, like, passing through to pass through, you know what I mean? And so I felt like a lot of emotions kind of came up in that class. And I think that one paper moment really summarized essentially, like, how I felt at that time, if I was, like, actually capable. Laura: What did you think with that feeling and that information after that? And how many years ago was that?Yasmeen: Well, that was my junior year of college. So I want to say that was probably, like, three or four years ago now. And I think maybe one of the first things I did was, I definitely went to my friends, and, you know, at first I kind of looked at it as a him issue, as like a, "He's just an a-hole, like, he just sucks. Like, he is not helpful." And looking back on it now, I kind of see why I did it because, again, I was embarrassed. I felt like he was, like, seeing through me and seeing through all of my faults, and never looked at me holistically as a person through my writing.And I blamed a lot on him, but I think for me, it kind of took a lot of just reflection on, like, OK, this didn't work again. So maybe this is related to something else and I just don't really know it yet. Laura: Isn't it interesting though, Yasmeen, that, like, one paper — how that can change everything and be a catalyst? And so when did you get diagnosed? That must have been one, two years ago?Yasmeen: Yeah, it was actually pretty early this year, I want to say. Laura: So recent. Welcome to the club, Yasmeen!Yasmeen: I know! Oh, a weird club to be in, but happy nonetheless.Laura: You’re right. It is a weird club. I noticed at one point when you were talking, you said, "Oh, my methods aren't working again," which kind of tipped me off that maybe, like, little inklings of this had come up, just not as intensely, before. Is that right? Yasmeen: Yeah, definitely. Like I remembered in school, one of my biggest sort of report card notes that I would always get is that "Yasmeen does not do homework." I just hated the concept of homework. Why am I going to school for, like, eight hours a day? And I could barely focus there. And then you're forcing me to spend another two, three hours on homework? I would just never do it. And so many of my teachers said I was, like, smart and I was capable, and I was definitely knowledgeable of what I was doing in class, but it was just the homework where that was a big stickler point. And one of my favorite, like, classes when I was younger was history. I really loved history. I love learning about world events and how that affected, like, future world events and who were the actors and who were sort of the players in those events and everything. And I remembered I got, like, a really high score on like the New York State Regents. I think it was like a 99 percent or something like that. It was super high. But then I got, like, a 75 in the class because I didn't do any homework. Laura: Oh, that's interesting. Because I was actually just going to ask you, why do you think that you would rush through homework or dislike homework? There are so many reasons that kids with ADHD can struggle with homework and one of them might be that they're just not interested in the topic and don't want to deal with it. But you were really interested in history. Yasmeen: Yeah, I was super, super interested. I loved history and, like, I was good at memorization and everything like that. It was just the thought of having to sit down for another two hours after I just sat down for eight hours of school to then do an assignment that was due the next day — I just could never do it. And so I never did. Or, like, if I knew, like, I had history for seventh period and I had lunch at fifth period, I would do my homework in fifth period so that it was ready for seventh period. But sometimes it just never aligned and I didn't do great in the class. But my teacher was always, like, kind of baffled by that.I remember her saying like, "Yasmeen, you're really smart and I want you to pass. I actually want you to get a really high grade in this class because I know you can. But the homework." And I just, I, I just couldn't do it. I, I don't know what, what it was. Laura: It sounds like it was fatigue, right? Like during the school day, kids with ADHD that may put all of their energy into, like, focusing and doing everything that they need to do. And then by the time they get home, they're, like, totally drained. And, it’s like, you gave everything that your ADHD brain could give during the school day and you just needed a break. Yasmeen: Yeah, definitely. I feel like it was a little weird for me because I felt like I, in a sense, was almost, like, masking a lot of the symptoms. Like, I couldn't sit down, or I just had to talk to somebody and distract them while I'm also distracted. Or, like, I would just do things that I guess people would consider weird. Like, when I was in school, I always just, like, used to talk to myself or, like, come up with, like, weird scenarios in my head and kind of, like, daydream a lot.And other kids would notice that, and they would call me weird or they’d be like, "What are you doing?" And so I experienced that a lot when I was growing up. And so I felt like I had to, like, basically portray normal. And I remember that being, like, super tiring for me because I was being someone that I wasn't, and having to almost be like a chameleon in school to like, make sure that people know like, "Hey, I'm normal, guys. I'm not weird. Yeah, I don't talk to myself." And I got bullied a lot when I was in school. And so again, that's sort of where that hiding kind of came from where it was like, "OK, I need to be perceived as normal because at least if I'm perceived as normal, I probably won't get bullied a lot, or I probably won't get asked, like, weird questions and things like that." And so I felt, like, in order to, like, maintain some form of social connection with my other peers, I sort of had to morph into what they believe or perceive normal is. And so by the time I got home, I was so exhausted from the school day.Laura: I'm sorry to hear you got bullied, Yasmeen. Yasmeen: Yeah. Laura: What was the school like that you went to?Yasmeen: I went to public school here in New York, and a lot of the schools I went to, many of the families were lower income, pretty diverse in terms of, like, race and gender. But it was only until I want to say maybe in middle school is when they started putting me in sort of, like, magnet classes or quote-unquote gifted classes.And, like, in high school I started to be in sort of, like, honors and, you know, IB and AP, and then the racial makeup of the classes and sort of diversity slowly but surely started to sort of disappear. I think for me, that was sort of a big reason why I kind of got overlooked in school because it was just, like, "Well, you know, their grades are good and they don't have any socio-emotional issues, so I think they're good." I felt like that's how a lot of teachers kind of looked at me. And at some point I kind of get it because it was just like, there were other kids who needed much more, like, attention and much more help from, like, parents and things like that. And for me, it was kind of like, "Well, OK, they don't do homework. They can't really follow instructions, but they're passing class. So that’s what matters." Especially for the type of schools I went to, like, you know, grades of students determined, like, the sort of funding you can get. And so, for them, as long as you're passing and as long as you're, you're not sort of a danger to yourself or to your other classmates, we just don't have enough time to, like, really look to see if there might be something else that's there.Laura: What was your family's perception of all this?Yasmeen: It's interesting. So my family are from the Caribbean. My parents are from Jamaica, and so kind of like two different worlds. And so even if they did sort of hear from teachers that like, "Oh, your child has trouble, like, sitting down and paying attention and has trouble listening to us and focusing," and things like that. My parents kind of just chucked it up to me being a kid because it's like, "Oh yeah, we see that so much in Jamaica." And so they didn't quite understand it. And so if there was maybe a teacher who saw that, like, maybe there was something going on with me, if they were to try to explain that to my parents, my parents would have just been like, "Oh, uh, it's kind of an American thing. You know, Americans love to like overdiagnose things and diagnose people with things. You don't have that; that doesn't exist, because we don't have it back at home." And I was like, "No, you do probably have it at home." And I get it, they didn't have that language, but I do wish that they sort of took some of it with validity, because I felt like if they did, it would have been much easier for me in terms of them sort of helping me to get, like, sort of the services I need versus me, you know, when I'm 12, like looking up WebMD and looking up, "Why can't I pay attention?" And I hear it a lot from, like, other immigrant households where it's, like, the first-generation kids, you know, we have to be our own advocates because our parents sometimes need advocates themselves.Laura: Your self-awareness is pretty amazing. At 12 years old, you're looking up "Why can't I pay attention?" I definitely wasn't doing that when I was 12, and, listeners, it has nothing to do with the fact that the web was not very robust when I was 12 years old. There are a lot of feelings around that. We talk with a lot of people who think about, like, their parents. And again, I always say this, like, it's no judgment. Our knowledge of ADHD has come such a long way. And you're on the front lines of that as a user researcher. Can you tell folks a little bit about what you've learned about ADHD diagnosis, particularly in the Black community, through your research?Yasmeen: Yeah. So we recently did research specifically with Black and Latinx parents and also Black individuals. One of the things we heard a lot was this idea of, like, an overdiagnosis and an underdiagnosis. A lot of times, behaviors related to ADHD that are seen in Black children, they are more seen as, like, disruptive, but when it's not sort of related to quote-unquote disruptive behavior, when it's, like, sort of just, like, an inability to focus or things like that, it's usually sort of overlooked in a lot of Black students.And so there is sort of this weird, almost ironic sort of dichotomy between, like, focusing on this disruptive behavior in order to, like, punish, and then not providing, like, help and services for people who are exhibiting, like, behaviors that aren't related to this idea of, like, disruptiveness. And, you know, in the end, it just doesn't help the Black students in general, because you're constantly policed in school, but also not getting the help you needed. And we saw a lot of that. And also this idea of just kind of, like, passing kids through the education system, even though they still require help and still require some form of accommodation.I remember there was one person who we talked to who just felt like they were kind of getting passed through school because teachers just didn't have the time, the resources, or honestly just didn't care enough to provide him the help he needed. And then once he sort of entered into college and entered into the real world, he was, like, struggling so much because he never was able to get the help he needed or develop the strategies he needed in order to, like, be in sort of an environment where you are sort of your own advocate and you need to seek out these resources. We don't just provide them to you. It ends up being like a real detriment to a lot of Black students once they're sort of aged out of, like, our K–12 system and they kind of have to figure it out on their own.Laura: In your work, do you ever feel like you relate to any of the stories that come up, and if so, is that cathartic at all? How does that make you feel?Yasmeen: Yeah, a lot of the interviews I conduct, it always feels like I'm sort of looking back at myself. And it really gives me sort of the opportunity to really, like, reflect back on, like, my life and how that sort of came up for me and also feeling, one, seen, and two, that I wasn't, you know, this wasn't my fault. Because a lot of the time, issues around not getting that help tend to be a lot more systemic than we sort of realize. And so, yeah, it’s sort of amazing to kind of do this work because I get to help out other people while also learning so much more about myself and, like, you know, also forgiving myself for things that I couldn't really control.Laura: That's pretty incredible that the way that your work and your life and your experience have kind of intersected in that way. It's powerful.Yasmeen: I'm so grateful to, like, be able to have that story of experience, because I don't think I would've been able — or I think it would've probably took me a lot longer — to actually look to get a diagnosis if I hadn't had that chance of, like, constant reflection.Laura: Have you been in contact at all with that professor from your junior year?Yasmeen: Oh no! I have not. Laura: I’m just curious.Yasmeen: Yeah, I'm still kind of a little salty with the B-minus I got in the class, but, you know, if he's listening to this, thanks, I guess.Laura: Well, I mean, Yasmeen, this has been wonderful. Thank you for being here with me today and talking with me.Yasmeen: Yeah, of course. I think this was fun.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha!" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash ADHD Aha.Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening.
Understood Explains Season 3IEPs: Does my child need an IEP?
Get tips from a special education teacher on how to tell if your child needs an Individualized Education Program (IEP) — or if you may want to wait.If your child has been struggling in school, you might be wondering if they need special education. And once you start exploring special education, you’re going to run into the term IEP, which stands for Individualized Education Program.But what exactly is an IEP, anyway? On this episode of Understood Explains, host Juliana Urtubey will cover IEP basics and how to figure out if your child needs this kind of support. Timestamps[00:57] What is the purpose of an IEP?[03:27] What’s in an IEP?[05:42] Does my child need an IEP?[07:42] Should I wait to get my child an IEP?[10:05] What if my child is learning English? [11:36] Key takeawaysRelated resourcesUnderstanding IEPsAre my child’s struggles serious enough for an evaluation?How to help if English language learners are struggling in schoolSeason 1 of Understood Explains: Evaluations for Special EducationEpisode transcriptJuliana: So, your child is having some struggles in school and you're wondering if they might need an IEP. But what does this mean? On this episode of "Understood Explains," we'll cover IEP basics and how to figure out if your child needs this kind of support. From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "Understood Explains IEPs." My name is Juliana Urtubey and I'm the 2021 National Teacher of the Year. I'm also an expert in special education for multilingual learners, and I'm so excited to be your host for this season of "Understood Explains."Quick note about how we're going to structure the season: Most of the episodes focus on information that's important for all parents or guardians to know. But we also have a few episodes that are tailored for different groups of families: families with younger kids, older kids, and multilingual learners. And all the episodes are available in English y en español. OK, let's get started. [00:57] What is the purpose of an IEP?So, what's the purpose of an IEP? Before we answer that question, I want to quickly explain what an IEP is. IEP stands for Individualized Education Program. It's a formal plan that details the special education instruction, supports, and services that are designed to help a student with a disability make progress in school. IEPs are covered by a federal law called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, or IDEA. This law applies to all public schools in the U.S., including charter schools. If your child qualifies for an IEP, you'll work with the school to develop annual goals and monitor your child's progress throughout the year. So the purpose of an IEP is basically to be a road map, showing how the school will help your child catch up with their peers. It might surprise you to know that IEPs are very common. Nearly 1 in 6 public school students has an IEP. That means millions and millions of kids have Individualized Education Programs. And each IEP is customized to a student's needs. So if your child has dyslexia, the IEP might specify an hour of special reading instruction a few times a week. Or let's say your child has ADHD and autism. Maybe you and the school think your child needs to be in a smaller classroom to get more individualized instruction throughout the day. These are the kinds of details that get spelled out in an IEP. And it's important to know that most kids who have IEPs spend most of their day in general education classrooms. By law, IEPs need to keep kids with their peers as much as possible. There's one other really important thing that all parents need to know. Having an IEP is not a sign of low intelligence. I've taught many, many kids, and all of my students have unique strengths and needs. But sometimes, people's strengths can be overlooked if they have a learning difference. For example, during my first year of teaching, I had a student named Abelardo, who really struggled with reading and writing. The most I had ever seen him write was "Yes," "No," and his name. But one day, we discovered that Abelardo was selling candy and fun school supplies out of his backpack. And he was so good at it. He even had charts to keep track of his inventory and charts to show what was the most popular. And his charts were even color-coded. It was clear to me that Abelardo had incredible math, reasoning, and entrepreneurial skills. But he needed formal supports to help him with reading and writing. So remember, kids can do really well in some areas and still need an IEP to help them thrive in school. [03:27] What's in an IEP?Let's get into a bit more detail and talk about what's in an IEP. There are lots of important parts, but I want to give you an overview of four key things in an IEP. First, there will be a section detailing your child's present level of educational performance. This is the jargony term for how your child is doing in school. You might hear the school use acronyms for this, like "PLOP," or "PLP," or "PLAAFP," which is short for "Present Level of Academic Achievement and Functional Performance." This part of the IEP outlines the student's strengths, challenges, and how their classroom scores compare to their peers. This section may also mention some of your child's behaviors or interests, like the subjects they enjoy and how they get along with other kids. Next, there will be an "Annual Goals" section. This describes what progress the IEP team is hoping to accomplish. It will list each goal and break down shorter-term objectives to reach along the way. And later this season, we'll have a whole episode on how you can help the school come up with these goals. The third main part of an IEP is the "Services" section. This part details how the IEP will help your child meet the annual goals. This section lists any services your child will get and for how long, such as 30 minutes of speech therapy twice a week. There are also a gazillion different kinds of services that can go into an IEP. Anything from mental health counseling to physical therapy to training in things like social skills or time management. Remember that “I” in IEP is short for "Individualized," which means the IEP can include whatever special services your child needs to make progress in school. And last but not least, is the section that details the accommodations, which are changes in how your child does things at school. This section of the IEP is often called "Supplementary Aids and Services." It could include things like more time on tests and a seat at the front of the classroom to help your child pay attention. It could also include assistive technology like text-to-speech software or audiobooks. The other important thing to note is that an IEP is a legal document. And later this season, we'll have an episode about your rights during the special education process. [05:42] Does my child need an IEP?All right, here we go. One of the biggest questions: Does my child need an IEP? Sometimes the answer to this question is very clear: "My child is blind and needs to be taught how to read Braille." But sometimes the question is harder to answer. Here's an example: "My child has ADHD and needs a lot of support to get organized and follow directions. Will classroom accommodations be enough to help my child make progress in school? Or does my child need specialized instruction?" Schools look at a bunch of different kinds of data to figure out which kids qualify for an IEP. And to help you understand this process, I recommend you listen to the first season of "Understood Explains," which is all about evaluations for special education. We'll include a link in the show notes. But the school cannot evaluate your child for special education unless you give permission first. So you play a very important role here. If your child is struggling in school and you're wondering if these struggles are serious enough to need an IEP, I want you to ask yourself a few questions:Why an IEP now? What got you thinking about this? Was it something a teacher said or that your child brought up? Are your concerns new or have you been worried for a while? Thinking about what prompted your concerns can help you talk about them with your child's school or health care provider. How are your child's struggles getting in the way at school? Is your child having trouble with a certain subject like reading or math? Is your child struggling socially or with things like concentrating in class? Try to write down a few examples, even if you don't know the root cause. What are you observing at home? Does homework take hours and hours and often end in tears? How often is your child worried about school? How intense are these worries? Is your child wanting to stay home from school because it's too hard? These are the kinds of questions that can help you get ready to talk to the school about giving your child more support. [07:42] Should I wait to get my child an IEP?Should I wait to get my child an IEP? OK, so you've noticed your child is struggling and you think school supports might help. There's a very common question that parents ask themselves next: Is now the right time, or should I wait? I've worked with a lot of parents who wanted to wait because they were hoping their child would grow out of their challenges. But I found that the sooner we meet children's needs, the better. Being proactive can help kids in many different ways: academically, socially, emotionally. So if you're wondering if your child needs an IEP now or if you can wait, I want you to do three key things:First, ask the school what kind of interventions they've tried with your child and for how long. Interventions are much more formal than simply giving a student some extra help. They typically take place over several weeks, and during that time the school keeps track of your child's progress. If you think your child's skills are improving with the intervention, you may decide to wait to ask for a special education evaluation. But you don't have to wait. You can ask for an evaluation at any time. The second thing I want you to do is find an ally at your child's school, whether it's a teacher or an aide or another staff member. Sometimes schools have family liaisons. You can ask the front office to guide you to one. Having a relationship with someone you trust at the school will help you understand the process, ask questions, and get help for your child. And the last thing I want you to think about is time of year. Remember, you have the right to request an evaluation at any time, but practically speaking, it's better to avoid asking during the first few weeks of the school year unless you had concerns from the previous year. And likewise, it's better to avoid asking for an IEP at the very end of the school year, when school's winding down for the summer. So, those are a few concrete things you can do to help you think about whether now is the right time to talk about an IEP, or if you want to wait. As a general note, I know many families may be reluctant to speak up or be seen as the squeaky wheel at school. And in particular, I know some Latino families may not feel like it's their place to tell the school how to educate their child. But I want to be really clear here. Schools in the U.S. want families to tell teachers when they're worried about their child's progress. And teachers want to partner with families. So I encourage you to talk with your child's teacher and share your concerns — whether you're asking for an IEP or not. [10:05] What if my child is learning English? So, this next question is near and dear to my heart: What if my child is learning English? Before we dig into this, I want to note that schools use different terms to describe students who speak languages at home, in addition to, or other than English. Many educators use the term "English language learners." I prefer the term "multilingual," and better yet, "linguistically gifted."The important thing to keep in mind is that all children learn languages at different rates, and that's OK. It can be hard to become fluent in English while also learning to read, write, and do math in that new language. But there are ways to tell if a child's struggles are due to a language barrier or something else, like a learning difference, such as dyslexia. We're going to talk more about this later this season, but for now, I'm going to put a link in the show notes to an Understood article to read if your multilingual learner is struggling in school. It includes lots of good questions to help think about whether your child might need an IEP. And there's one more thing I want to mention while we're on this topic. Learning more than one language cannot cause a learning difference or disability. All children, even children with learning and thinking differences, can be multilingual. Families often ask me if they should stop speaking to their child in their native language because they worry it's causing harm. That's just not true. In fact, educational experts recommend that families keep using their home languages. Speaking multiple languages is good for a child's learning and brain development. [11:36] Key takeaways OK, we've covered a lot of information in this episode, so I want to wrap up with a few key takeaways to help you think about whether your child needs an IEP:Think about how much or how often your child is struggling. Being proactive can help your child in the long run, not just academically, but also socially and emotionally. Kids can do really well in some areas and still need an IEP to thrive in school. All right. That's it for this episode of "Understood Explains." Tune in for the next episode to learn the difference between IEPs and 504 plans, which is another common type of school support. You've been listening to "Understood Explains IEPs." This season was developed in partnership with UnidosUS, which is the nation's largest Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization. Gracias, Unidos! If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we've mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission. Credits Understood Explains IEPs was produced by Julie Rawe and Cody Nelson, with editing support by Daniella Tello-Garzon.Video was produced by Calvin Knie and Christoph Manuel with support from Denver Milord.Mixing and music by Justin D. Wright.Ilana Millner was our production director. Margie DeSantis provided editorial support, and Whitney Reynolds was our web producer. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Special thanks to the team of expert advisors who helped shape this season: Shivohn García, Claudia Rinaldi, and Julian Saavedra.
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