574 results for: "strengths"
Strengths-based IEPs: What you need to know
Imagine an Individualized Education Program (IEP) that focuses as much on your child’s strengths as it does on your child’s weaknesses. Unfortunately, that’s not the norm for most students yet.In a typical IEP meeting, not much time is given to looking at a child’s strengths. Strengths are covered at the beginning of the meeting, and the rest of the time is focused on deficits.But more and more schools are shifting the focus from deficits to a strengths-based approach. This kind of IEP gives much more weight to a student’s strengths, interests, and preferences. The team not only identifies strengths but leverages them to help address weaknesses.Here’s what you need to know to help develop a strengths-based IEP for your child.What strengths-based IEPs areA strengths-based IEP looks at abilities as well as weaknesses. It looks at what students can do, what the team wants them to do next, and how strengths might be used to set goals to help address a particular need.A strengths-based IEP often boils down to a shift in mindset. Schools have been focused for many years on areas of need because that’s what qualifies kids for IEPs. But by shifting the focus and putting a big emphasis on strengths, this new kind of IEP helps adults — and kids — see that there’s more to these students than their weaknesses.To do this, IEP teams often need to gather more information. This likely means asking students to help identify their strengths, interests, and preferences. Students can also help the team think about how to use these strengths to develop strategies for success. And this process promotes self-awareness and self-advocacy that can help kids in school and beyond.How strengths-based IEPs workThere’s no one way to develop a strengths-based IEP. But here are some common elements and approaches.Use a strengths finder before the IEP meeting. These kinds of student self-assessments can help IEP teams develop a strengths-based IEP. A strengths test not only tells the IEP team about kids’ abilities. It also tells the kids about their own abilities. And these insights can be a guiding force throughout the IEP meeting.Find out if your child’s school already has access to a strengths finder. If not, you and your child’s case manager can look for a free strengths assessment online. (You can also try a fun hands-on activity to help identify your child’s strengths.)Give students a leadership role in IEP meetings. Having students actively participate in parts of the IEP meeting can help in many ways. For example, students can lead the part of the meeting where they share what they discovered about themselves when taking the strengths test.Student involvement in IEP meetings can deepen the discussion about strengths. It can also give kids a sense of ownership when they get to help make decisions about their IEP.Student-led IEPs also underscore the importance of self-awareness. This can help kids think about new ways to develop their strengths and work on their weaknesses.Many parents encourage kids to attend at least the first part of the IEP meeting. This is when the team discusses a student’s strengths, interests, and preferences. Older students are more likely to participate in or lead more parts of the IEP meeting.Reframe the way the IEP team talks about strengths. Too often, IEP teams discuss a student’s strengths by saying things like “What I like about Elana is….” And these kinds of comments can be hard to connect to the rest of the IEP in actionable ways.But IEP teams can reframe the strengths discussion so it focuses on abilities: “What does Elana do well?”The paragraphs in the IEP’s present level of performance are likely to be the first things new teachers read about your child. Emphasizing strengths throughout this section as well as weaknesses not only sets a positive tone. It helps teachers get a better sense of how to help your child move forward.For example, if Elana struggles in math, what does she do well in that subject? Can she work independently? Does she prefer to work in groups? Is she able to use a calculator? Strengths-based IEPs aim to start with a strength for each of the skill sets discussed in this section.Weave strengths into IEP goals. This is the heart of a strengths-based IEP. IEP goals are built around what the student can do and how the team can use that ability to work on an area of weakness.It’s important for IEP goals to be SMART (Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Results-oriented, and Time-bound). Incorporating your child’s strengths into SMART goals can make the goals even stronger. It helps kids see how to make progress by leveraging what they’re good at.Here are a few examples of how a strengths-based IEP goal could differ from a SMART goal that isn’t strengths-based:The common goals and the strengths-based goals set the same expectation for student progress. But only the strengths-based goals use the student’s abilities and interests to help chart a path to progress.The potential of strengths-based IEPsStrengths-based IEPs aren’t widely used yet. But as more schools make strides in student-led IEPs and other areas, they may inspire more districts to rewrite their IEP templates. Adjusting these templates can help ensure that strengths are discussed throughout the IEP meeting, not just in the first section.In the meantime, you don’t have to wait for your child’s school to change its IEP template. There’s a lot you can do right now.For starters, you can get answers to common questions about having your child attend IEP meetings. You can also learn more about how to develop SMART IEP goals, and then help steer the IEP team to include strengths in at least a few of your child’s goals. And you can advocate for more teacher training in strengths-based IEPs at your child’s school or in your local district.Explore eight ways to be an effective advocate for your child at school.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Tapping into the strengths of my dyslexic brain
Gil Gershoni says that everything he does is dyslexic. He founded the branding firm Gershoni Creative and hosts the Dyslexic Design Thinking podcast. Gil Gershoni is the founder and creative director of the branding firm Gershoni Creative. He says that everything he does, he does dyslexic. Gil sees dyslexia as a hyper-ability. His goal is to show the world that dyslexic thinkers can open new doors and innovate anything. Along with Gershoni Creative, Gil created Dyslexic Design Thinking, a method that helps clients see new perspectives and tell the story of their brand. Gil also hosts Dyslexic Design Thinking, a podcast that explores the link between dyslexia and creativity. Through these outlets, Gil spotlights dyslexic thinkers and ideas. Listen to this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?! to learn more about Gil’s approach to changing the dyslexia disability narrative, and how he advocates for neurodiverse teams. Related resourcesDyslexia and creativityEntrepreneurs who learn and think differently“Out of the darkness and into dyslexia” — a for/by article by Gil GershoniEpisode transcriptGil: So, when somebody asks me about my dyslexia, I'm dyslexic through and through. I wake up dyslexic, I eat dyslexic, I dance dyslexic, I do everything dyslexic, because that's the way my mind works. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. My next guest, Gil Gershoni, identifies as dyslexic, an artist, an entrepreneur, a father, a husband, and a pretty good table tennis player. Being dyslexic is in everything he does because it's how his mind works. He sleeps, eats, and breathes dyslexic. Gil is the founder and creative director of the branding firm Gershoni Creative. He's also the founder of Dyslexic Design Thinking, a methodology he uses to work with clients to see things from new perspectives. Dyslexic Design Thinking has led to a number of initiatives that are changing the narrative of dyslexia as a disability to a hyper-ability. He also advocates for more inclusive and neurodiverse teams in organizations. He credits his creativity, visual and emotional intelligence out-of-the-box nonlinear thinking, and unique ways of solving problems to being dyslexic. Welcome to the show, Gil. Gil: Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. Eleni: So, you're the founder and creative director of a successful branding firm, Gershoni Creative. You also have a podcast called Dyslexic Design Thinking, where you talk about a lot of the topics that I think we'll cover today. Talk to me about how you think your dyslexia contributed to your success. Gil: Well, maybe the good place to start is to sort of reframe what I see dyslexia as versus what the dictionary or the common sort of misunderstood meaning of it is. Most folks that you ask, "Oh, you have dyslexia. Oh, you do the letter, you flip them, you have the hard time reading." And that's true. First thing to know is that dyslexics come in all different forms. Dyslexia is a big umbrella for different types of minds and different types of ways of processing the world around them. The symptoms of not being able to read easily or write easily really has to do with the idea that I negotiate everything. My mind looks at letters as negotiable symbols, and most people that read easily, they don't negotiate the letters. To them, they're fixed symbols that they refer to as just, you know, a string of codes and cues and things, and then they can read the word. But for me, when I look at letters, I tend to sort of negotiate them. I tend to look underneath, below, above, and I do it all at the same time. But you take the same symptoms of learning differences, and you apply it as a strength. And all of a sudden, I can visualize like nobody's business, I problem solves and come up with solutions that are not obvious to the regular or to the traditional mindset. And I can connect people and things from different places with the blink of an eye, I think immensely fast. A lot of dyslexics find their path of entrepreneurship because they can then, you know, create their own story, look at organizations' problem and in industries in a whole new way. And I think a lot of dyslexic and I think I have it similarly, I have a tremendous amount of empathy because I can relate to folks and I'm trying to listen not only to the words but to where they come from, their whole body, what's their intention. So, those are some of the things that the gift of dyslexia and the strength of it has been a huge part of my success and the way that I look at the world around me. You know. Eleni: I know that you really put yourself out there to get your first job. Do you want to tell that story and how, you know, what that taught you about your dyslexia and the kind of person that you are? Gil: I always, you know, when I first set a paper route, I figured that because I was very young and they only give me X amount of routes that I can't really, there's not a lot of room for growing that got that route. So, I said, "OK, what if I get my cousins and my brother to extend the route and then they'll work underneath, you know, under me?" And we were able to sort of grow our paper route to a much larger neighborhood. We did it for all sorts of different things. I went to all the summer camps in my community, and I must have been nine years old and says, you know, "I want to perform for the kids." And the camp director says, "You are one of the kids. What are you going to perform?" He says "No, no, no." And I had a little dove, a little, you know, in my bag. And I showed him I had a pigeon, and I did a little bit of a trick and he was like, "OK." So, he said, "Yeah, let's try one show." And I was like, "No. Either I did the whole summer camp for all the sessions, or I don't do it at all." And he was like, "I'm sure I don't know this person today, but I'm sure that he was just like, 'You got to be kidding me, man.'" This is a 9-year-old with a pigeon and a bike trying to close, you know, the whole summer season. And he gave me the show, you know, and I got my brother and my niece to participate. And we would do a 35 to 45 minutes performances twice a day at the summer camp, and we earned some decent money for it. So, I always kind of like to think about those things, you know, and take the leap. When it came to doing some branding work, I remember I was at university and I was at an administrative office and the phone rang and the person, you know, says, "Oh," and she put the person that rang on hold and said, "They're looking for somebody to design the Miami Grand Prix Auto Race. Do we know anyone?" And I says, I was just there, and I was like, "Oh, that's what I do. Can I pick up the phone?" And he was like, "Sure." So, I got up the phone and I talked to the guy and I was like, "Absolutely what it is you guys are looking for?" He says, "Well, we're going to need some merchandising. We need to do some brand the city of Miami with Toyota and the branding and all these things." And I says, "Absolutely. Let's meet and put this together." I must have worked for that gentleman for about five or six years. And through the process, I you know, I brought one of my dear friend that was an illustrator to join, another friend that was a writer, and I just created this sort of small little team. And we're just we're taking these projects on, and we would always go and meet with this guy and or the team at the time, to figure out what they needed and then sort of faked it until we made it, and we made it very quickly because we had to figure out how to deliver these things. And yeah, I think that's something that I've heard from a lot of dyslexics that we sort of marched on drum beat. We found our own paths, you know, and if I went to a proper interview and had to write something to do it, I probably would never get the job. But the fact that it just sort of I was open to it, I was at the right place at the right time, and I just kind of took the leap, you know, kind of changed the outcome. And it happens every time. I mean, everything we do it sort of starts somewhere around that place. Eleni: Yeah, I, I love that phrase "take the leap." You know, you have mentioned entrepreneurship a couple of times and obviously, you are an entrepreneur yourself, and I noticed that you had also written an article about, you know, what makes dyslexics such good, successful entrepreneurs. I would love for you to talk about like how that's relevant to your career and your success. And if you can apply some of those, you know, principles to yourself. Gil: Yeah, I love that you sort of grabbed the idea of the leap, because that's what we do with language, right? We leap over letters, we leap over ideas. You know, often, you know, it's harder for me to be linear. You have to really focus on trying to stay linear. But leaping is something that comes naturally to me. And, you know, so as an entrepreneur, I tend to sort of leap, you know, I tend to leap through ideas, I tend to leap toward direction, adapt to see the world around and connect things that maybe are not apparent to the eye. I am meticulous, you know, because I can see the details I describe before I can see the details between how this particular screw in my watch can change the manufacturing, can benefit the economics, and help us actually deliver something that weighs less so we can start a less expensive product and manage our margins, right? Like I can see all the details in a blink of an eye. And I think that that's part of what's a very keen gift of the dyslexia and been very successful for me as an entrepreneur is I see the immense details. Sometimes it's too much. So, I have to choose like to what you know, because it's just, I can see imbalances. I can see when things don't align right or don't vibrate right. You know, mental visioning is something, again, that dyslexics do really well. You know, I think probably for two points. One is that, as I said, I can see things that connect each other, but also practice over the years to memorize visual cues and where can I find them, and that sort of developed this sort of photographic memory, but also the ability, very strong ability, to mentally visualize what I'm trying to do, where I'm trying to go, how the pieces fit. And when you do that, then you have a clear map to where to go, you know, and when you have a clear map to where to go, the economy of effort is much more focused toward a desired outcome. And you can then account on it, you can measure it, you can evolve it, you can adjust it. It's only when you're not so clear about the direction that you spend a lot of energy sort of fishing to where we have to go. So, mental visioning is a really, really strong tool that as a dyslexic, I use every day. And in everything I do, you know. Eleni: I know some people in the disability community prefer like person-first language, like people with dyslexia, and then other people for their, you know, identity-first language like dyslexic people. And I've heard you use the term like I'm dyslexic and it seems that you tend to use identity-first language. I would love to hear your perspective of that. And like if there's a particular reason that that is how you prefer to identify and refer to yourself. Gil: Let's start about the idea that dyslexia didn't happen to me. I was born with it. I'm not broken, so I don't need to be fixed. My mind thinks immensely fast, nonlinearly. And as I practice to have a relationship with my dyslexia, it's my hyper-ability. So, when somebody asks me about my dyslexia, I'm dyslexic through and through. I wake up dyslexic, I eat dyslexic, I dance dyslexic, I do everything dyslexic because it's the way my mind works. I just think immensely fast and often faster than most. I practice having a relationship with that, like everybody with an amazing mind practicing their gift, their skill, their talent. Most people think it's my learning differences, but that's the least of it, and that's really the least of it. Eleni: Yeah, it's such a big part of who you are. I know that you said dyslexia is forever present, but can you give some examples of how you might apply it to, like work in your management style? Like where it comes up? Gil: So, when I was younger, I used to get really frustrated with the world around me because. It would go so slow, you know, and I would have to kind of really wait and have a lot of patience for others to literally think the answers. And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, we already know the answer," you know, but I would get so frustrated and...Eleni: I'm laughing because I could relate. Like yeah, I get the point. I get the point. Gil: Totally. You know, and a lot of us really, you don't have to be dyslexic to relate to that. But what I learned over the years is that it was very important for me to rely on other ways of thinking, to bring my team, and work closely with my partners and clients to work together. And in order to do that, I needed to find ways to accommodate for different types of ways of thinking and different types of way of solving problems and different types of way of looking at problems. So, I've learned to, as I said a minute ago, to slow down, to move fast. But I also learned to try to create a balance. You know, identifying my strength in my weaknesses, expressing that to my team so that they have room for themselves to have their strength and differences so we can actually work as a cohesive team and understand how to integrate our thoughts to create a better outcome. We look at collaboration is working together through different lenses to come up with a much better inclusive outcome and arrive at the summit together. You know who wants to climb the mountain, get to the view and be like, "Oh, where is everyone?" You know? So, for us, it was always around kind of "How do we make it inclusive? How do we use all of our senses? How do we use different lenses to look at human experiences and how to address them?" And, you know, that's a lot of the things we do around our team and working with others to kind of bring some of that dyslexia strength to the table. Eleni: Yeah. Sounds like you really advocate for having a neurodiverse team. Gil: Absolutely. If you want to solve a problem the same way you always have, choose a person like yourself to do it. If you want to solve the problem differently, then be open-minded to bring somebody else to maybe shed light about a different angle or perspective. It doesn't mean that it's either or. It means that it's both. Eleni: You share your strengths and challenges with your team, and it sounds like you kind of model that openness. Is that something that you generally advocate for in the workplace for people to be open about, you know, differences and kind of disclose any challenges that they might be having? Gil: I lead by example. So, what tends to happen is that they see that I, you know, I talk about it. I take daily risks. I reward failing forward. I embrace experimentation. I really reward and support and believe in coachability. And when you, you know, when you experience that and you develop your own road and pursuit to your own identity as it is to you, and with the experience that you come to the moment with that. So, everybody is different, you know, and every environment is different. Sometimes it's about seeing it in others and making the environment inclusive for them so they can just relax, regardless of their differences. Everybody's where they're at and we absolutely respect that. You know. Eleni: I think a lot of these concepts that you've talked about kind of fit into this like idea of Dyslexic Design Thinking, which I know is a concept that you came up with. So, I would love for you to talk about how that came about and like what your vision is for organizations in terms of how they can incorporate Dyslexic Design Thinking into, you know, their teams. Gil: So, Dyslexia Design Thinking came about a while back when I gave a talk at South by Southwest with a good colleague of mine and a partner and at the time strategist April Durrett. And we looked at the way we work. You know, she was a strategist, a researcher, so creative and I was not, and I was nonlinear, and she was. And so, we always found ways to collaborate in ways that were different than our colleagues at other agencies. And so, we really kind of start to look at "What it is that we're doing that's different?" And we kind of start to realize it's the way that we dance together that makes our outcomes stronger. It comes from the idea that dyslexia thinking it's really around visualization, imagination, it's around problem-solving, connecting to others. As we just talked about, building a team, finding the outside-of-the-box solutions, and we look at design thinking, it's really using the methodologies of designing and making, right? So, it's around finding inspiration in the world and looking to human behavior. It's using the empathy, understanding others. So, when we combine all those types of methodologies, we realize that we really suddenly had something unique, that when we include the neurodivergent mindset, the dyslexia gift, the dyslexia thinking with the design philosophy of what we were doing at the agency, it came out, you know, just to be something that was really successful for us. You know, dyslexia thrives in the nonlinear, and instead of trying to tone that down, we found places where that really helps that process to define and discover. And that really applies to everything we do at the agency, from working with our own clients, with a team, but also with our culture, you know, because we really look at every part of stepping stone and those process with that lens and we bring a lot more to it because of our inclusiveness and our diversive thinking of how to address the problem and address human needs, you know. Eleni: When you started out in branding, did you think you would end up doing such, like so much work in the dyslexic space? Like, what is it like working in a space that is so personal to you? Gil: No, and I don't even think that I'm working in the dyslexic space right now, although I'm really involved in it. I'm doing so much about it because it's what, draws me. You know, it's like when you align and you come from a place of the heart and you work on it, then at least for me, there is a draw that happens. You know, it's not work. It's just attraction. It's just the right thing to do and I get so much out of it and it pays in space to the community and it's kind of selfish, you know, I'm doing it because I want to learn more, you know, just talking to you I'm learning so much. I'm like, you know, "How can I say no to this?" You know? So, I end up saying yes to everything. And, you know, we just finished designing the Schwab Learning Center, which is a dyslexia center that was supporting some students in Stanford and high schools around how to take their dyslexia and turn it into a hyper-ability and kind of, so it just lead you to different places to make a difference. I was always interested in the idea of the perception, you know, what happened between the subject and the object? You know, when I was a young boy, I was always interested in the idea of first impressions. Love at first sight. How do you control the, you know, how do you control that illusion? You know, so I started to read a lot around the psychology of magic and misdirection. And how can you bring an audience, a large audience, to believe that something, that you can change gravity or that you can affect, you know, the elements? And that really drew me. And I think that I was always playing with that kind of narrative. Earlier on, I didn't realize that that was my dyslexia, but I still do today. You know, I'm the first to sort of play and I'm the first to sort of change the direction. And say "We've never done it before this way. Let's go this way." And it was like, Really? "Yeah. It's going to be much more interesting." And then you kind of, it's kind of addicting. You fall in love with that. Eleni: Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. It was magic. Gil: That was such a pleasure. I really appreciate your time. This was really insightful, and I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much for having me. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you. So, we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got that job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes for the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
Strengths chain: Hands-on activity to help kids identify their strengths
To help kids thrive, recognizing their strengths is just as important as working on their challenges. Here’s a cool — and crafty — way to identify kids’ strengths and connect them in a paper chain, or a “strengths chain.”Download and print the set of worksheets above and follow the directions. Want a demonstration before you dive in? Watch the video below.For families: Make the strengths chain with your child. Working together will help both of you see your child’s strengths and how they link together. Planning to do this activity with more than one child? Print a full set of worksheets for each child in case they may have many of the same strengths. For educators: After your students create their own strengths chains, connect the chains to make one long chain to hang in your classroom. The activity can spark a conversation in your class about how everyone has strengths and challenges. Plus, the completed strengths chain is a visible reminder to your students that they all contribute to making the classroom community stronger.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia is why this production manager is so good
Dyslexia helped him find his strengths — like thinking ahead. Frank Imperiale explains why he excels as a production manager for live events and concerts.As a child with dyslexia, Frank Imperiale always had to think 10 steps ahead to account for his reading challenges and anxiety. Today, thinking ahead is a skill that’s served him well in his career as a production manager for live events. His impressive list of credits includes the NYC Marathon, comedy shows, concerts, and more. Get Frank’s advice on how to turn your learning and thinking differences into strengths. And hear what Whoopi Goldberg, who also has dyslexia, once shared with Frank backstage. Listen in. Then:Watch a video about a jeweler with dyslexia who found his strengths.Check out Whoopi Goldberg and a dozen other Oscar winners with dyslexia.Episode transcriptAnnouncer: On the Understood Podcast Network, there's a podcast for everyone. Find your new favorite today at u.org/podcasts.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Frank Imperiale is a production manager for live events. His credits include the New York City Marathon, comedy shows, political debates, and concerts with stars like Whoopi Goldberg and T-Pain. He's an expert in audio-visual technology, and he has dyslexia. Welcome to the show, Frank. Frank: Thanks for having me. Eleni: So as part of your work on live events, you're an expert in audio and sound. So was sound always your thing, or do you have a story of what you were into as a kid and where it all began? Frank: Yeah, it's kind of funny. I was the little toddler running around the theater because your teacher didn't have a babysitter. My dad, he used to do kind of high school dramas and that situation. And I was just always around theater sound and lighting, and it was something to keep me busy. And instead of me just sitting there or playing games, I was like, how does that work? And that's how my mind kind of works a lot, is I just want to know how things work and why. So I started getting involved with it and I stuck with it.Eleni: So Frank, I would love for you to describe how dyslexia shows up for you. Frank: My version of dyslexia is I definitely have issues with sounding out names. Words and spelling are just not my forte at all. And then a big problem is when I read, I just get line convergence. So I can read the same line five times and not realize it until I'm like, wait, did I read this? And it happens constantly. And still to this day it does. And you know, I learned tricks. I put a piece of paper under it to try to keep me on track. And it works, but it's still there. And it's never going away. It's just, I know how to deal with it now. Eleni: When I heard that you are an audio and sound person or that you've gravitated towards audio, that kind of made sense to me because I often imagine if you have dyslexia, perhaps like reading might be a challenge, so you might lean into other things. But I was wondering if that is a fair assumption to kind of think, oh yeah, like having dyslexia means that you're more into audio. Like, is that actually true for you? Frank: I don't think so. I mean, audio? Yes, it does help. Yes. I've listened to a million books on tape. Podcasts are the same for me. Like, I'll get a lot of information from that versus reading from a book. For me, when I have to read, it's usually manuals or instructions, that kind of thing, or something that I'm really interested in. But when I was in school reading, no, no, thank you. I'm good. Cliff Notes, please. Cliff Notes helped me so much. And most of it was, I would try to find audiobook versions of everything and listen to it. So maybe subconsciously it was built in for audio. But I think it's more of just the adventure of it. I don't think I can ever do like a nine-to-five office job. It's just something that I'm not built for. Eleni: Yeah. So as you said, it's more interesting because you don't really know what's going to come up day-to-day. What do you think it is about audio that makes a good fit for you?Frank: When I was a little kid, it came easy to me. I was very good with technology, and I have that kind of brain for technology. So it fit and then it was something I did and I enjoyed. And then I moved on farther. And then in high school they found out, oh, actually this kid knows what he's doing, so great. We'll give him even more. And then when I went to college, I was like, I'm not going to go to school for theater because I know what I need to know. So I said, let me dabble in television. And I went for broadcasting, and TV added to my toolbox we would say in the communications world. It just kept adding to that toolbox of what I know, but I kind of fell back into that live event.And maybe it's the adrenaline, maybe it's the crowd that there's kind of this feeling that you get from an audience. I kind of noticed a lot, even as a technician, it's not just being on stage, but you can just feel it from them. And it was missing in television and things like that. Eleni: What I'm hearing is that it's more about the environment and the setting and like the thrill of live events, as opposed to like day-to-day tasks that you do around audio and visual.Frank: Yeah. I think it's just like, there's an end product. There's something you can see, and every time it's different, but you're doing the same thing. You're moving levers, you're tweaking knobs, you're adjusting volume. That kind of thing. To me, that's the boring part. The fun part in the stuff that I do is it's organizing and managing and making sure that we complete our goals and get across the line. So that way we can have that performance. Eleni: I want to talk a little bit about like how dyslexia shows up for you at work. Have any challenges come up in the work that you do, or is it more so that you've found a role where you're not really impacted day to day by the challenges associated with dyslexia.Frank: I don't know. I feel like now I've grown to be able to compensate in a lot of areas. Like there's still the sending of the emails and reading it like five times and reading it out loud. And is this the right word and googling that to make sure that it's perfect and right, because I'm always thinking that it's going to be wrong. So that's a big problem. But otherwise I feel like because I have dyslexia and because I've figured out ways to compensate, maybe, it's those skills that I bring to the table that a lot of other people can't: the multitasking and the thinking, the thinking way ahead to avoid potential problems. It just happens now.Eleni: What is it about dyslexia that makes you good at thinking ahead? Frank: It came from when I was in school. I had a whole bunch of anxiety. I mean, sick every day before I go to school, because I didn't know what was going to happen. And the big thing was trying to control that feeling and making sure that I could figure out what was going to happen and anticipating that. So I think, OK, well, what are we doing in class? What could happen? Is there a potential chance for like a pop quiz? Well, what would be on that quiz? How can I study for that? And all that would process for every class. And then depending on how the day was going, it would change. And I would just think constantly about what's going to happen next in English class when you're sitting in class and we have to all read in class. Dreadful, dreadful experience. And I would be constantly monitoring and calculating. All right, well, this person's reading this paragraph. There's five people in front of me and then you count down and then of course you have the one kid that decides they want to read too. And then all of a sudden that changes and you have to reevaluate. And then it would be like, OK, one, can I say, "Hey, I got to go to the bathroom." So they skip over me. That's another opportunity to do that. So it was always that process of calculating. And I think it's more now that I do it and I don't even realize I do it.Eleni: Where you're anticipating?Frank: That I just anticipate all the problems, even like the smallest thing possible. And it's the same thing. Like people laugh at me when I'm at work, because I always say, oh, hang on, I got it in my car. And they're like, why do you have all this stuff in your car? Like, why do you have extra tools and all of this and timeline and whatever it is. And I got it in my car because I don't want to be unprepared and I don't want to be stopped.Eleni: You said that you always had to feel really prepared when you went to school. It sounds like there was a little bit of anxiety that showed up. In what ways did that anxiety show up for you day to day? Frank: School was horrible until probably about my junior year. But before that, I would literally throw up every morning to the point where I would even make sure that I had something in case I was on the bus and I got sick. It wasn't carsick. It was purely anxiety because I didn't know what was going to happen that day. Eleni: Wow. That's so intense. Frank: It was. And it sometimes comes up now, too, surprisingly, that it's still at work. Sometimes I'll get that same feeling. Eleni: It's really interesting to hear how two things that maybe you wouldn't necessarily associate as being related — I wouldn't necessarily think, oh, because you have dyslexia you're really good at thinking ahead and planning. But I can see now, like after you've explained it, how those two things can relate to each other. Frank: Yeah, it was the only way that I figured out how to survive. And that was a big thing. My mom was really a big fan of figuring out what works for you. Yes, it's a learning difference and it's true: I learn differently. So I needed to figure out the way that I was going to fit in to what I was given. And the anticipation was the only way I could figure it out. Eleni: I've heard a lot through interviews I've done with people. it actually becomes easier when you focus your energy on your strengths and maybe the things that you can change as opposed to either dwelling on challenges or like things that can't change, or like maybe accepting that there are certain things where you can't fit into that box. And that's actually OK. Frank: Oh, absolutely. My motto is "I'm not doing brain surgery." And that is what I tell everyone. I mean, I deal with clients and they think that it's the end of the world if something doesn't happen or if a cue's late or something like that. And I literally say one, no one's probably going to know. Because they don't know the show or they don't know the performance. And two, it's OK. You can't sweat the small stuff. You can't dwell on the past. And I think that's part of my anticipation. I can't dwell on the past because I got to keep going. Like, I don't have time to complain about, oh, we should have, or we could have. There's just no time for it. You've got to keep going and keep moving forward. Eleni: It's interesting that you bring up the audience won't necessarily be able to pick up on if there's a mistake a lot of the time. I often will attend concerts and events and you know, I'll be blown away by the light effects, especially if it's coordinated with sound. I'm like, how do they do that? Can you give us like a peek into how the magic happens? Frank: Honestly, how it works a lot of the times is it's just, you do the same show over and over. I ran what a lot of people term as a roadhouse. What would happen is about seven in the morning or so two tractor trailers would probably back in, and we would unload them and basically set up their sound, their lighting, their set, whatever they had for the performance. Most of the time that would bring us all the way to lunch. And we'd come back. We'd focus some lights and keep moving forward. And then we get to the showtime. And half the crew, all of my staff, which could have been anywhere from 10 to 50 people, had never seen the show, didn't know what was going on. And so they have a stage manager. And the stage manager says, OK, do that. And then we just listen to them and we're almost in a sense trained professionals that we know our operation and what we have to do. And there's some lead person that gives them the command. Now, sometimes that fails miserably and sometimes it doesn't. I can't tell you how many times you just have to fly by the seat of your pants.Eleni: Do you have any crazy stories you can share of things that have gone wrong?Frank: One of the funniest times was we were trying to load out a show because once the show is done, we then take everything and pack it back up and put it on the trucks. And they leave that night. So we had one show that someone had snuck around the truck and parked in the loading dock and it's on a college campus. So they just went to go party or wherever they want. And we couldn't get the stuff on the truck. So we finally devised like a ramp and we wheeled everything on this 53-foot tractor trailer over this little tiny ramp over this car. Got it all out. And then at the end of the night, we aired out all of its tires so that way it would be stuck there for the weekend. We had to get that truck packed. It had to be, I don't know, in Connecticut the next day. But it's like, yeah, it really got under our skin. So we're going to get a little bit back on them. And then, I mean, there's been simple things, like all of a sudden, company I worked for, their truck driver got injured and they need someone to drive their truck. And next thing you know, I'm a truck driver for the day. And I think that's why I do like the line of work I'm in. Because one day I'm a sound guy. One day I'm lighting guy, one day I do video. And the other day I'm a truck driver. Eleni: Well, it sounds like you wear many hats. But you're also in a managerial role at these live events, right?Frank: I mean, the management role is a little different and weird because I'm not a manager that is very hands off. I'm always like, no, I'm part of the team, I'm going to help you where I can. And when I have to step away, I have to step away because I have to do something. But yet also I'm not your typical manager again, because I just can't do one thing. And I'm also a big fan of teaching. So if I see someone doing the wrong thing, I'm not going to say no, you're doing the wrong thing. This is how I want you to do it. I explain to them why. And a lot of people start learning my process of my mind. They understand. They're like, well, why does it matter that we run the cable this way or that way? It's still getting point A to point B. Like, yes, but when you're loading out, it's going to be much easier if it goes this way, if it goes around this one piece that I know is going to be a problem. And they're like, why are you thinking about the load-out? And I was like, you always think about the load-out, because you want to get home. You want to get out of there. So again, it comes into that mind of anticipation and already solving those problems before anyone thinks of it. Eleni: Yeah. I see how that's related. So, I was told you see a lot of celebrities backstage and you once met Whoopi Goldberg, who also has dyslexia. Can you tell us that story?Frank: Whoopi was awesome. I mean, Whoopi literally, when we sat down, she came up to the stage and we were sitting and we were like, oh, you probably have about 15 minutes before we start. And she sat down and she just started talking to me and like, what are you doing in life? What are you this, what did that? And to the point where I was like, you have to go on stage now and she's like, they can wait. And we just continued to have a conversation. And it was, it was great. I was like, really? This is happening right now? Eleni: Earlier, you mentioned that you do think differently. And then now you just talked about how it's also important for you to kind of communicate how you're thinking or why you're thinking that particular way and for other people to understand that. Do you think that you have like a desire to be understood and for your thinking to be understood because it's different?Frank: I think so. I think that's a big thing. Like even the last gig I just finished was working the New York City Marathon. And we only do a small sliver of it, but that small sliver is still covering sound for 200 acres for all 30,000 people that came this year. But even that I was bouncing around doing 50 things, four sets of communication. I had two different radios, two cell phones, and everything was going off at the same time, but yet I was still also loading a truck. And people constantly ask me, I don't know how you do it. And I said, I really don't either, but I do it.But then I do try to convey a lot of why I do things and how I do them. And I want people to understand, like, I'm not like an advocate or like, oh yeah, I'm special and I'm different. No. But it does keep rearing its head that yeah, I'm dyslexic. And you know what? That's why I'm doing what I do. Eleni: Do people at work or colleagues and peers, do they know?Frank: Oh yeah, absolutely.Eleni: Do you talk about it in that way? Like, yeah, I think that that's because I'm dyslexic.Frank: It comes up. Like in conversation, I don't shy away from it. Why should I? It's nothing to be ashamed of. Even when I was a kid, like I remember when my mom wanted me to get tested. And I was kind of like, I don't want to be the dumb kid. Oh, you're the kid in special ed. You're going to resource. But that changed when I was like in high school, because no one thought of me as the dumb kid. And they're like, wait, you have resource? And then I would try to be an advocate in that case and explain it. And I think that's where I learned, don't be ashamed that you're dyslexic. It is who you are. You can research and you can find out so many like CEOs and amazing people have dyslexia. And I think it's because they're wired that way and that's why they're successful. And that's why they have that kind of drive because they've always had to do it to survive. Eleni: Yeah, there's like a little bit of a correlation there between dyslexia and entrepreneurship. Frank: And what's funny is I have no interest in running my own business. I mean, I've done it. I've been there, done it, but no thank you. I'm good. For me, that's too much. Eleni: You mentioned that when you were a kid, people would ask you why you were going to resource. And you know, you didn't really feel any shame around telling them why. Where do you think you learned that? Because it's not an easy thing. It's something that I hear people struggle with a lot, especially when they're younger. Frank: I think that ultimately came from my mom, because my mom was a big supporter. And she said, use your resources, use that as you need. Do want to look up that or study more. That's just time for you to figure out what you need.And I think that's a lot to do with why I am the way I am today, was during our, you know, IEP meetings and anything that was dealing with us, my mom made sure that we were at them. I was one of very few kids in my circle that I knew that actually went to their IEP meeting. Everyone else, they were like, the parents kind of hopefully went but barely. And my mom said, no, this is your educational program. Like, this is your educational plan. You should be involved, and you should know what's going on and help them make the proper decisions.And even now, like, I'll take on a job that I'm like, oh, can I do this? I don't know. And I'll just talk myself up. Yes, Frank, you can do it. It's the same concept that you've been doing. It's the same elements. And I'll talk to myself about it. And I'll just convince myself that even if you don't think you can do it, try.Eleni: How does that apply to work now, like, are you having those conversations? Is there anything that you ask for in a work setting?Frank: Not really — accommodations I don't ask for. It's more of, at this point with work, I think it's partly again, because I enjoy what I do and I took that driver's seat. So I'm in a position. I don't think I could work an office job, partly probably because for me it seems very — the same job over and over every day, that kind of thing.But it's also a lot of writing and reading if you're thinking about data processing and typing and things like that. I mean, now that I'm talking to you literally right now, I'm like, huh, maybe I haven't had an office job because of dyslexia. And I've just said, I'm staying away from it. Eleni: And again, it's about leaning into your strengths and being aware of that. And it's OK. An office setting isn't for everyone.Frank: Absolutely. I learned at a young age that I definitely have a mind for technology, and I understand how things work. And it definitely was a natural progression that I was going to go into some type of production or technical stuff, because it's just how my mind works.And now with the management stuff, I know the terms, I know what the devices do. And then I just now am understanding more and more the best way to get the players to fit. And the other thing is, I keep learning. I joke about it, but I don't stay with just one company in one job. I'll stay with my main company, but I'll always do some side jobs here and there, because I'm always wanting to learn new techniques, new ways to do things, new ways to understand what might make and what I could apply to make what I do better.Eleni: Yeah. And also it's so important to be able to reapply knowledge in like different settings. And I think that relates back to what we were talking about in terms of reapplying what you learn in school in like a work setting.Frank: Oh yeah. And pivoting. I mean, life's such a fun journey. and it's like kind of one of those things, like, you never know what you're going to get. And it's totally true. Know what you know, and try to apply it. Pivot all the time. Just constantly. Every job I've had has been some random connection. I mean, even this interview, I met one of your producers in a different way, and that's how we're connected. And we're having this conversation. You never know where anything's going to lead.Just be a happy human. Talk to people, enjoy life, and enjoy what you're doing. And if you're not, then go find something that you do enjoy. Because there's gotta be a job for whatever it is. Eleni: Thank you so much for sharing your story. Frank: Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
The Opportunity GapEmpowering English language learners
English language learners bring unique perspectives to the classroom. It’s important for teachers to learn about their strengths and challenges. English language learners bring unique perspectives to the classroom. Their diverse backgrounds and experiences often impact how they learn, too. So, it’s important for teachers to take the time to learn about their strengths and challenges. Learning a new language is hard work. Multilingual students are often learning how to read, write, and do math in that new language all at the same time. In this episode, listen as Understood expert Dr. Claudia Rinaldi explains:How teachers can create inclusive learning environments Why ELL are both overrepresented and underrepresented in special educationWays schools can build stronger partnerships with ELL and their familiesRelated resourcesUnderstood’s article 4 challenges of English language learners who learn and think differently Understood’s article: Learning and thinking differences in the Hispanic community In It episode: Joy and justice with Juliana Urtubey, National Teacher of the Year Episode transcriptJulian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. And there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. Welcome back, listeners. I am very excited because we're kicking off our third season with an incredible episode. September 15th will mark the start of National Hispanic Heritage Month. During this month, we celebrate the histories, the cultures, and the contributions of American citizens whose ancestors came from Spain, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Central and South America. Shout out to my father, Andres Saavedra. He was born and raised in Havana, Cuba. I'm very excited to represent my culture as well. In today's episode, we're talking about supporting English language learners in special education. During the course of this episode, we may refer to students as English learners, multilingual learners, or students in English language acquisition programs. The terms may differ depending on which region of the country you're located. We're also going to be talking about how to identify learning and thinking differences in English language learners. And how do parents in schools find a better way to work together to support our students? To dive deeper into this important topic, we've invited a very special guest, Dr. Claudia Rinaldi. Dr. Claudia is a full professor of education at La Salle University. She's also an expert, and I mean like OG expert. She's been with Understood since the beginning. Please welcome Dr. Claudia. What's up, Dr. Claudia?Dr. Claudia: Good afternoon, everybody. It's good to see you today. Thank you for the invitation to join you on this very special month that we'll be celebrating. And I'm happy to be here as your expert and also a parent of a child with a disability. Julian: Oh, thank you so much. So, we always like to start off our show with just a little icebreaker to get us talking, get us familiar a little bit. And it is the fall season, and I'm wondering what's your favorite thing about fall? Dr. Claudia: Definitely the changing leaves. I used to live up in Boston, Massachusetts, and that was my favorite season was just going around taking pictures of the trees every day, the colors they change and I just miss that a lot now that I live in Florida. What about you? Julian: Oh, I used to live in Boston as well. We can share some stories. Boston Common looks beautiful in the fall. Dr. Claudia: Yes. Oh, my God yes. I miss that. Julian: But you don't miss that snow. So, enjoy your 75 degree December. Enjoy it. Let's jump in. So, you know, the diversity among English language learners is extremely rich, right? There's no two students that are the same. They come from a variety of cultural backgrounds. And so many of our students bring these unique perspectives and experiences to the classroom. This experience influenced their approach not only to learning English but to their experience in the classroom overall. As many of our listeners know, I serve honorably as an assistant principal in an urban high school in Philadelphia, and I have students from all over the city, but in some cases all over the world coming to our school. A couple of years ago, I had a student who was a refugee from Afghanistan, right? And he had gone to very prestigious schools, his father was a diplomat, and although he didn't know English well, his knowledge of science and biology and algebra was extremely high quality, because he had gone to these amazing schools back in Kabul. In the same class, I had a student who had come from Guatemala and they were the same age, both on the same level of English language learning. But the student from Guatemala had never gone to school past the third grade. They both were English language learners, but their school based knowledge was very different. And so, when we talk about the idea of English language learners, there's such a diversity of culture, diversity of experience, diversity of knowledge about just school in general. And I want to make sure we call that out. So, as our expert, Dr. Claudia, how can teachers effectively leverage these types of experiences to create a more inclusive learning environment?Dr. Claudia: Julian is such a rich experience that you shared and this question about how we can leverage those experiences to create a more inclusive environment it's so key, because I do think in many cases the teachers see the students as a blank slate over the beginning of every year, and they also see students who are learning English as all the same. And you just shared two really rich experiences about students with very different opportunity to learn the content and also the different life experiences from different parts of the world. So, I think one of the ways to leverage those experiences is actually to really connect personally with each student, right? We need teachers who show an interest in learning about the different cultures of their children by asking them having opportunity to sit with them, or even inviting the parents in to share about their culture and doing their own research about different cultures and what their political, educational, familial, traditional, medical kind of experiences are that may be different from ours. I think when you live in the US, we feel like the center of the world, but in reality there's lots of centers of the world. So, we need to open up our opportunity to learn from different cultures and what those students can bring to our classroom. I came here from Bogotá, Colombia, back when I was ten years old, and I didn't know a word of English, but I had been, like your student of Afghanistan, I had gone to private school and I had really rich literacy skills, and my experience was very different to the little boy that I came in with that had gone off a boat from Cuba, coincidentally. And he ran to shore to get political asylum. And we were both sitting at the same English language levels. The teacher treated us like the same student, right? In fact, even in that school, we didn't even have an English as a second language teacher to help us out. We were just like, fully immersed. And it took me a year to realize that all my teachers spoke Spanish and I could have asked for a lot of support, and I just didn't know it because the teachers never took the time to really get to know me and what I knew and what I brought from my culture and my experiences that my counterpart, for example, a friend of mine, didn't have. Leveraging that communication and that relationship, so that they feel like they're part of the classroom. They feel that their experiences are valued. They feel that the education they know is valuable, and that they feel that however they got to the United States was a miracle and a triumphant way that their families wanted to come here to create a different experience. Julian: I love that you referenced the idea of opportunity and relationships so much, right? There's this giant opportunity to really be a welcoming environment and a supportive environment. And on top of integrating into a new society, just being into a new environment educationally could be an extremely big challenge. The students have to adapt. Knowing this, Dr. Claudia, how do these differences in education and their educational experience, how do these differences influence a student's transition and impact or affect their academic performance? Dr. Claudia: So, one of the main differences that we find is for children like the child you discussed you had as an assistant principal, that did not have but a third grade education and was now in high school, knowing whether the child is literate in their first language. It's really important to find out. Because if they are literate in their first language, we should leverage that language in order for us to teach them English. And what I mean with that is, there's plenty of research that tells us that if the students have a strong native language literacy skill, they can more easily and faster transfer to English. It's particularly faster when the languages are transparent, like English and Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, right? But either way, having the native language literacy skills actually impact the learning speed of English. But if we don't know whether the children are literate in their first language, then we can't help them to make that transition. Again, going back to the idea that if we assume that all students are the same when they're get to our classrooms and they're all learning English at a level one and don't know any English and don't bring anything, then we can't really teach them what they really need to do to learn English faster and more appropriately, right? So, for example, if we think about the kind of skills that we asked students to do, one is learn new vocabulary and then use that vocabulary. And a lot of those vocabulary words that we use in content areas like "identify," "list," are things that are very similar in other languages. So, they may have those already. Now if we have a child that does not have literacy in their native language, what we want to know is, what do they know in general, like knowledge that they know and then make a decision whether it is more effective to teach them using their native language, particularly as they get older than just put them into English. Because their native language, they have a rich vocabulary, right? They're speaking, even if they don't know how to read. They have rich vocabulary in their speaking language and listening and speaking. You know, it's still up to the teacher and the parents to kind of say, "okay, he does have a rich vocabulary. We should probably begin with our native language," and in languages like Portuguese and Spanish, we could teach a student to read in three months, basic reading skills. So, if we could leverage those, then we can make that transition into learning the English content in much more effective ways. But again, it goes back to knowing the student and also getting to know their literacy skills and also taking into account their effect. Like, did they have a traumatic experience coming into this country? Again, did they cross the border and they're running for their life? or, did they get off a plane and they came with their parents because they were able to? That brings a lot of differences. I think all students who immigrate to United States come with some trauma. That's why trauma-based practices are important. Julian: Everything you just raised, it's hard work from an instructional standpoint to not only know your student, know what their levels academically are. Know that there's so many emotional things that are happening all at once. I'd love for you to talk more about just some things that teachers can do to help students navigate some of that emotional toll that it takes, you know, coming into a new place. Dr. Claudia: Good question, Julian. And I think some of those very tangible kinds of things that teachers can do is ensure that your students are eating, because if we're eating, we can learn. Ensuring that the students come to school and feel safe. So, that's a big one. Feeling of safety allows students to relax and be able to learn and take in the environment. Find them a peer that could be a good support system for them throughout the day as they make the transition. And sit and talk with them. Look to get insight into, again, anything that you know about them and start building a relationship. For example, even if you don't know the language using Google Translate at first or bringing in a peer that can translate, you know, smiling. Remember, they're scared. They're more scared because they're in the new place. Julian: Yeah. A smile goes such a long way. It's simple, but it's so, so effective, right?Dr. Claudia: Yes, it really does. Julian: There was a study that the U.S. Department of Education conducted where they found that English language learners with learning disabilities represent 13.8% of the total ELL population enrolled in U.S. public elementary and secondary schools. So, thinking about that, when it comes to special education, English language learners are often either overrepresented or conversely, underrepresented in special education. Dr. Claudia, can you tell us more about first, why would multilingual language learners or English learners, why would they be overrepresented in special education? Dr. Claudia: And I get this question asked a lot, which is, the overrepresentation, why does it happen? The main reason is I think a lot of teachers are not prepared to work with students who are learning English in their classroom and they're looking for help. And the easiest way to get help is through special education. The challenge is that just because you're learning a language doesn't mean that you have a disability. And so, it's really important that we follow a process of data collection, parent interview observation and really collect a lot of information that tells a story about the student. But sometimes, and in many cases, this the group that is put together to do that evaluation, they didn't know that the child was learning English. They just thought the child was very quiet because their child they didn't answer correctly. And so one of the important aspects of addressing overrepresentation of English learners in special education is ensuring that our assessment or evaluation process really takes into account the child's native language and that when appropriate, that we evaluate them in their native language. Because the best way to understand whether a disability happens is if their disability is shown in both their native language and in English. Yeah, that underrepresentation is also evident in some districts and again, it is driven by uninformed professionals who tell teachers, "No, you can't jump to get extra help in special education. You have to wait until the student is a level four or five in English, meaning close to English speaking students before you can refer them to special education." Let's say you come in and you have an English learner who's a level one or two, but you definitely feel that the child is significantly behind in their native language, in English, or there's very little growth over time. And then the teacher got the message that we cannot refer them to special education until they're a level four. It may take the child four or five years to get to that level. And in the meantime, they're not being able to access the general curriculum and learn as much as it could have with the support of special education if they indeed had a learning disability or any other kind of disability that they brought. Julian: Dr. Claudia, you've referenced different levels in English language acquisition a few times. Can you clarify for the listeners when you refer to a level one versus a level four?Dr. Claudia: Sure. So, link English language acquisition as a process of learning English and the way that schools measure that English language acquisition or development is through evaluation tools that tells them where in the English language development process they're at. Typically, all agree that levels one or twos are what we call, you know, almost non-speaking English. They're probably coming in with little to no English. And then it takes about a year to go from one level to another. That means that it takes between 5 to 7 years to become as close as you can to a native language speaker. So, if you could think about that, if you have a child that's coming in in kindergarten, they are not going to be fully fluent in English for academic purposes until they're somewhere between grade five and grade seven. They should be getting English as a second language support, and the general teacher and the ESL teacher should be working together to make sure that the child is accessing the curriculum in the most appropriate way, depending on their level.Julian: That makes a lot of sense. So, given your experience, not only as a former English language learner, as a student, but now in your professional experience. Given that it's so difficult and there's a lot of different things happening in different school systems, what are some ways that schools and school districts can form stronger partnerships between English language learners and their families? Dr. Claudia: Yeah, Julian, that's something that we struggle a lot across the United States. Some school districts do it a little better than other, but I think it takes the commitment of a school district or and a school to think about parent engagement not from a one-way directional from the school to the parents delivering information, but to really make it a mutual or interactive commitment to working with them. I've seen schools that, again, are purchasing apps that allow parents to receive information in multiple languages. Obviously, we have back-to-school parent night, but really preparing so that we can culturally and responsively communicate with these parents that we do want them in our schools and that it is common in the United States for parents to be involved and ask questions and then provide answers through their language. So, really hire those family liaisons, which could be a parent in the school and bring them in for unique opportunities for the parents who speak one language or the other language or students who have disabilities so that they feel that their participation is helping their child beyond just sending them ready to learn. But it does take time and effort. I've had a couple of principals that have coffee hour in Spanish in some of our schools in Boston, and I always thought that was great and it was informal. So, it's not like you were just sitting in a big auditorium, but it felt more familiar. You provided childcare, you provided food and try to see how you can also bring them in to share about their culture. So again, so that it is interactive relationship rather than a just one way directionality from the school to the parents. I think for students with disabilities, as we think about them, they should even have a unique group themselves because what parents of children with disabilities go through is different than what their parent for a child who's typical goes through. So, I think thinking about different groups and maybe engaging teachers to take leadership in offering those times or offering other venues that are like Zoom or even just phone chats where you could have a group chat that is interactive and parents can ask questions, or if they are afraid of immigration status or if they're afraid of asking a question again, it creates different entry points for parents to ask for supports and additional resources that they may need. Julian: I appreciate that. There's so many great tips that you offered, especially just overarching making sure that our families feel like they're supported and that they have a welcoming environment and meeting them on their level is really important. That two-way street of communication is instrumental in building a relationship. Listeners, I do want to call out that there are federal rights that parents and students are entitled to within the school, no matter what. In recent times, we've seen an emergence of sanctuary schools within sanctuary cities and like sanctuary cities, these schools are committed to protecting undocumented students and their families from federal immigration enforcement, especially in school spaces. So, Dr. Claudia, could you share with our listeners some very specific examples of ways that sanctuary schools protect students and their families?Dr. Claudia: Sure. Sanctuary schools protect students because they have a commitment to ensuring that nobody is asking about those immigration issues that families come with. In many cases, these schools also have a lot of connections to other resources in the communities that helps families and students with a variety of challenges with immigration or medical needs or whatever it may be, living situations. It's really important, I think, as the schools make a concerted effort to be sanctuary schools, that we share the information of what they're doing because they serve almost as models for other schools. As you said, Julian, we have many laws in the United States that protect our civil rights for anyone who lives here, despite of your immigration status. And so, it is important if your child has a potential disability or you feel they're not developing that they should or that it is different than your other children. You know, you don't worry about, you know, your immigration status. The schools are not able to ask you about that information. And they should be providing special education services to any child who needs that. It's called a free and appropriate education in the least restrictive environment. It is really important to realize that those civil rights laws that protect all of us that live in the United States are there in schools as well to provide the best opportunity for students as they move forward. Julian: Yes. What a great way to end. I could sit and speak with you for a lot longer, but I think we really got to a place where we start off Season 3 really strong. So, I'm just really excited that you decided to join us Dr. Claudia. Your insight, your experience, it all just made for a fantastic show, so I can't thank you enough from myself as the host, but also to all the listeners. We really appreciate you joining us. Dr. Claudia: Thank you for having me and being able to share with our community who desperately needs support and services that their children deserve and that we can provide. So, I love talking with you as well, and I hope this season continues to go really well. Julian: Appreciate it. So, thank you, Dr. Claudia. And thank you to the O.G. listeners, "The Opportunity Gap" listeners for tuning in. Season 3 is beginning. Before we go, I have a few resources to share that all of you might find helpful. And I also have a quick little exciting announcement. So, first Understood.org's article Four Challenges of English Language Learners Who Learn and Think Differently. Check that out. Another article for you, Understood.org Experts Weigh in Learning and Thinking Differences in the Hispanic Community, and then listen to how this teacher is making learning joyful for all English language learners in an episode of "In It," another fantastic podcast on the Understood.org podcast lineup. But for the exciting announcement, our next episode airing later this month — make sure you tune in — is going to be recorded all in Spanish. Todo en español. No longer Julian; it is el presentador Julian. And I'm excited because my simple Spanish gets to get broken in and we get to have an entire episode in Spanish. We are super excited to do this and it's been a long time coming, so we really are excited for you all to check it out, listen, share with your friends that we're really trying to broaden our audience and as Dr. Claudia said, to raise issues that desperately need to be raised and desperately need support. Till' next time. Julian: "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks edited by Cin Pim. Ilana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Learning strengths: What you need to know
The idea that different kids learn best in different ways isn’t new. You may have heard it called “learning styles.” Many kids naturally prefer learning in very specific ways. But researchers caution that it’s not appropriate to say a child has one “learning style.” There’s no one all-purpose pathway to learning that’s “right” — or that determines how well a child will do in life.One of the easiest ways for kids to tackle new tasks or ideas is by using their natural learning strengths. Read on to learn more about helping your child discover what those learning strengths are and how to make the most of them.What are learning strengths?Kids don’t approach every new learning task in exactly the same way. But how your child interacts with information probably does fall into patterns that draw on natural talents and preferences. Those patterns are learning strengths, and they are the pathways to learning.Learning strengths combine talents and abilities with existing skills and knowledge to help kids take in new information. These strengths are ways of thinking, feeling, or acting that can be used effectively. For instance, one child may naturally understand how other people are feeling. Another may know how something works just by taking it apart.Try a hands-on activity to identify your child’s strengths and create “strengths chain.”There are many different types of learning strengths. For example, some kids are drawn to words, while some are good with their bodies and movement. Some kids do very well learning new information visually. Other common pathways include learning by listening to information, by finding patterns, and by working with other people. Many people learn best through combinations of these areas of strengths.The role of “thinking styles”People have varying levels of natural ability in different areas. Your child’s set of abilities help make up a unique “intelligence fingerprint.” But it’s not the only factor. Another is thinking style. That’s the way kids process the information they take in.Some kids are reflective thinkers. They need time to consider all the aspects of an idea before it makes sense to them. Some are global thinkers. These kids often have sudden “aha!” moments when everything makes sense all at once.The importance of a growth mindsetJust because kids have a natural ability in one area doesn’t mean they can’t build ability in other areas. It’s important to help your child learn to take on challenges when it comes to learning. Believing that abilities can improve over time despite setbacks is known as a growth mindset.Help your child build a growth mindset. Download these free activities.Kids with a growth mindset believe that even when they fail at something, they can eventually succeed. Feedback and what they learn from experience helps them create strategies to improve. This, too, is a strength that affects learning.How does your child learn?Talent, ability, skill, knowledge, and thinking style. Looking at them together can help you understand how your child naturally learns.Take learning to tie shoes, for example. Kids who have a talent for thinking in pictures may have learned to tie their shoes by watching someone else do it. Kids with a talent for taking things apart and putting them back together may have learned shoe-tying by doing it over and over. Whatever a child’s preferred method is, it’s likely they learned to do other things the same way, too. (If your child hasn’t learned to tie shoes yet, watch an expert demonstrate a unique shoe-tying method.)Knowing kids’ learning strengths is useful when you’re exploring ways to help them learn new information. It can help you find the best studying options for them. And you can use each child’s strengths to help improve other skills they’re working on, too.Learn steps you can take to recognize your child’s strengths. Explore ways to help your child discover strengths and passions. And start talking to your child not only about weaknesses, but about strengths, too.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Why this clinician with ADHD decided to work with foster kids
Robert Benjamin calls himself an “absent-minded professor” because of his ADHD. Hear how he turned his strengths into a career working with kids.Robert Benjamin describes himself as an “absentminded professor” because of his struggles with working memory and organization. Robert always knew he wanted to work with kids. He focused on strengths like emotional IQ to get a job managing therapy services for foster kids and their families. Hear how he handles job challenges that come with ADHD and executive function issues.Listen in. Then:Watch the video story of Lena McKnight, who went from high school dropout to college student and youth advocate.Listen to a podcast episode about a teacher with ADHD dedicated to his students.Check out a video from an Understood team member about thriving with ADHD at work.Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Bobby Benjamin works at a foster care agency, where he's the director of clinical services. That means he's a licensed social worker, and he supervises a team of clinicians who work with foster kids and their families. He describes himself as an absentminded professor, because he has challenges with memory and organization and that type of thing.So, Bobby, could you give our listeners a sense of what it is you do at your job?Bobby: First, I'm very happy to be on the show. Just very pleased to be here. I work at Cayuga Centers, which is a foster care agency. I work in the Bronx, New York, office. So, I think my job is to see the big picture of how to maintain the well-being — emotional, mental health, well-being — of children and families in foster care.So the people who work under me we call clinicians, who are, like, individual therapists. I supervise them. So I'm not doing any one-on-one therapy, but my job is to make sure that they have guidance, give the therapist support, especially when they're dealing with a hard case and maybe need to process it. I would say my main job is to be a guide to the clinicians and to hold lots of meetings.That is my wheelhouse is to hold meetings among various people and bring people together and talk.Eleni: So, how does ADHD show up for you in a typical workday?Bobby: In terms of a typical day for me, I think one thing I have to be very attentive to is just my level of energy that I could bring to something, and having some very intense exercise in the morning before work really helps to be much more focused.So, that's one thing that makes me feel more present. The other thing is, the morning is really when I do things that I know are going to be difficult for me that are maybe high importance but very low reward. I've had my gigantic thing of coffee, and that helps me feel able to take on maybe those administrative things that I would normally at the end of the day, not having any energy or effort or focus on. So, I have to do that in the beginning of the day. And I'll often have some very high-intensity music in the background. Lately, my interest for that has been, like, trip-hop. So, like, very intense beats that don't have lyrics, which is not my normal taste in music, but that's what works for me, focus-wise. The other thing is, a lot of my day is about meeting with people and talking about problems. And one thing I have had to think about is, I will tend to just schedule meeting after meeting. And so, by the fifth meeting, I am completely useless. But if I don't have any meetings, if I don't meet with anybody and I'm just sitting alone in my office, I won't get anything done, either, because I need some kind of stimulus. And meeting with people and talking is very stimulating for me.Like, I'll have a whole meeting where we plan all the, like, psychiatric appointments for the next week. And just having to run that meeting is very engaging for me. And so, I'm like, OK, how's Jaquan doing on his medication? How many pills does he have left? OK, we can last for two more weeks. So, we’ve got to schedule him no later than next Friday, and then bing bang boom, I'm going through all the kids that have to be seen by their psychiatrist or else they're going to run out of their medications. So, if that helps me focus on gathering information, maybe I could have done this offline, but talking to people really helps organize me.Eleni: So, when we last spoke, you mentioned you had a really meandering path in terms of how you got to where you are today. Could you give me an overview of how you found your way?Bobby: I guess the first thing I think about is, I worked as a camp counselor from when I was, like, 14, until, I think, 21 was when I stopped working at that camp. I liked working with kids who were younger than me. I remember I would often look out for the ones that were being left out and try to comfort them, because I had gone through a similar experience when I was a little kid. So, I think that might've been part of it, this idea that I like working with kids. When I was in high school, one of my favorite teachers, Mr. Donnerbeer, gave me a book called "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat," which is by Oliver Sacks. And he's a neurologist who has, like, really interesting cases of basically when the brain goes wrong and the strange experiences that can create for people, and, actually, the surprising resilience that people have in still being able to operate.And I think reading that, I was like, "Oh, I want to do that." So, that got me really interested in psychology. Great thing about college is that you get a very expansive access to lots of different disciplines. And so, I meandered a little bit; I went into a little bit of computer science, a little bit of anthropology, and I liked this holistic view of who people were.So, I lost track of the wanting to be a psychiatrist in particular, and then kind of mid-college, I struggled a lot with writing papers. My way of writing papers was to procrastinate until the day before, and then use the energy of just sheer terror to then turn out a bunch of pages of stuff. And that worked really well for me until my second semester sophomore year.And then it didn't. And then all of a sudden, I think lots of things come crashing down. I get diagnosed over the summer with ADHD. And a lot of things started to make sense for me. And that's how I got into Eye to Eye, doing mentorship with kids who have learning differences and ADHD. So, out of college, I had no idea what I wanted to do. But I did know that I really enjoyed mentoring and working with kids with learning differences.Eleni: You know, it's really common for us to hear that people reach almost a breaking point, which often triggers some sort of diagnosis or just feeling like, "Yeah, I can't really do this anymore. I finally need to do something about this. It's not something I can ignore or minimize or deny any longer." And that kind of prompts them to get help.So, it's actually not unusual for people to get a really late diagnosis, in college. And I think partly the reason for that is there's a lot of innate structure in school. And then getting to college, people lose that structure.Bobby: Right. It's so interesting, because you're completely in control of your time. There's no person watching you, telling you, "Hey, you haven't gotten to your homework in a while" or "Hey, it's dinnertime." It's all internal. And I was not very good about that. Eleni: So, Eye to Eye is actually an Understood partner. And I would love you to tell me from your experience, like, how did that help you learn more about yourself and also what you enjoy doing, which you mentioned was mentorship?Bobby: Well, what Eye to Eye is, you're with a group of a bunch of other people who also have learning differences and ADHD. So, I think one thing Eye to Eye does just right off the bat is it connects you to a community of people who are going through the same things you're going through. Before getting connected with them, I had no idea — I thought I was diagnosed and unmoored and just by myself.So, I think one thing that Eye to Eye does is just create that sense of community. They're really good about that. We had a local elementary school that we went to, and we were meeting with fourth graders who had learning differences and ADHD. And boy, at that age, like, doing well in school is your identity. And so it's so much a part of your identity that it's really hard just emotionally.And so you get paired with maybe one or two kids that you're following through the whole curriculum. And what you see is, like, you're paying attention to their strengths, and then they start to think about their strengths. And they're thinking about ways of coping. And then also you start applying some of these things to yourself.Because, I remember one time I was talking to this 10-year-old girl through, like, how to advocate for yourself. And then I thought to myself like, "Well, I need to advocate for myself. That's something I need to do just for me, not just to teach her about." So, it was also just really helpful. I think sometimes teaching can be a great learning tool as well. Eleni: Definitely. Bobby: Just to see them develop over the academic year where you have this very, like, quiet, reserved child who like, maybe isn't thinking much of herself, to being able to say, like, near the end of the curriculum, "I have ADHD and I'm proud." It's just an amazing thing.Eleni: That's awesome. And you mentioned that through this experience, you were able to learn how to also self-advocate for yourself. What does that mean to you, and, like, how do you ask for what you need?Bobby: Some of it is, I think, just being very up-front about where my challenges are. I might say, "OK, you're telling me something verbally — great, but can you follow it up with an email or something? Because I am going to get distracted and forget." Sometimes I'll put that in the context of "I don't have the greatest working memory," but other times I just put it in the context of "This kind of works better for me if you follow it up with an email." And people usually are pretty accommodating in terms of those kind of asks. Eleni: Do you talk to your work colleagues about your ADHD?Bobby: I tend to focus on the symptoms that impact other people versus talking about a diagnosis. Because sometimes when you say you have ADHD, especially for somebody who is on the more inattentive end of ADHD, like, people get basically the opposite impression. They'll say, "Well, you don't seem hyperactive; you don't seem like you're bouncing all over the walls."Because that's not my experience with ADHD, so I tend to really focus on, OK, what are the things that are really going to impact you? Well, one thing might be, if you tell something to me, am I going to need a reminder? And so, another thing I'll say is, "Well, if you haven't heard back from me by the end of the day, remind me again tomorrow morning, because I might've gotten caught up in something." Eleni: You know, that might also be the case for some of our listeners. They might not know that there are different types of ADHD. Can you describe what is the difference between inattentive and hyperactive ADHD and how that shows up for you? Bobby: Sure. So, hyperactive ADHD is kind of what people normally think about when they think of ADHD. They think about the boy in class who just seems to have a ball of energy. And he's, like, running around the class, touching everything, maybe super impulsive. And then you have the inattentive type, who might be very quiet and instead, maybe an unkind term for them would be, like, a "space cadet." But you might be sitting there thinking about, "Oh, I wonder what we're going to have for lunch today." Not paying attention, maybe, to the grammar lesson that you didn't find very interesting. So, what tends to happen is inattentive ADHD tends to get missed, because it tends not to present as a problem. Because kids tend to be quiet and to be maybe well behaved, but you tend not to notice the ones who get lost in their own attention as much.Eleni: Yeah. So earlier you mentioned the word "space cadet," and you said that that could be an offensive term. Has anyone actually outwardly called you that when you were younger, as a kid, or even as an adult in the workplace? And how has that come up?Bobby: I think people, at least when I was a kid, would notice when I spaced out. My mom put it in a much friendlier way. She called me the absentminded professor. And I think that's a great encapsulation of who I am, is that it acknowledges that I'm very absentminded and sometimes space out, but it also acknowledges that I am intelligent and that I am smart. And that those two things are different. My ability to pay attention and my intelligence are different things.Eleni: And you also mentioned working memory.Bobby: Yes. Eleni: How might having inattentive ADHD impact your working memory? Bobby: So there are two ways. One is I might not have 100 percent of my attention on you and you tell me something, and I haven’t processed it. And so there's no memory to form. The other way though, is that sometimes even if I am paying attention, it's completely clear — it just doesn't store. Or, like, imagining working memory is a bunch of papers on my desk. And so they're all going to be ready to be filed at the end of the day, but then somebody slams this big pile that scatters all the rest. And so I've lost those other bits of memories, because maybe something big that grabbed my attention wipes those away.Eleni: That's a great visualization. Bobby: Yeah. Eleni: And before you started your current job, did you have any idea how challenges with working memory might show up for you at work or, like, maybe something that showed up that you didn't expect? It could have been a challenge. It could have actually been a skill or a strength that you didn't expect, but in the environment that you're in, you realize that actually this could work in your favor.Bobby: The one thing I didn't realize could be a strength is kind of my ability to shift. Because I've noticed that I'm very good at pulling out conflict and pulling out when I think — and this can sometimes be a disruptive thing. This is sometimes perceived, maybe, as being disruptive. But in some meetings I'll notice when maybe not everybody agrees, but we're going along with something. And I tend to be pretty good at calling that out. And I think impulsivity that I have is about really voicing where I hear disagreement, and that leads to some very productive conflict. But other people might sit back. I guess that's more the impulsive end of ADHD, but you might sit back for fear of stirring the waters. And I'm very OK with stirring the waters because I know that conflict can often produce better outcomes, get more consensus, actually, in the long run. So, I tend to be more comfortable with conflict.Eleni: And it sounds like you're able to pull threads together or maybe notice things that are under the surface that other people are overlooking.Bobby: Yes. And I think that stems from the ADHD. I think it's the variable attention, meaning that sometimes I'm looking for things, whereas other people might be focused on the strict content of the meeting. And I might be noticing that somebody is quieter than they usually are. I think in terms of how it affects my work and maybe how people perceive it, is it can be sometimes difficult to prioritize. The thing I often ask of people who supervise me is "What do I really need to focus on today? If I need to get something done today, what does that need to be?" Because my attention shifts so easily, it can be hard to prioritize and stick to maybe something that gives me less of a dopamine hit, but it's actually really important, versus things that I am enjoying doing more, but could probably have been pushed off until later.Eleni: So I want to bring it back a little bit, because we started talking about your meandering path. And you mentioned that originally you were interested in psych, you got to college and you became part of Eye to Eye, realized that you really enjoyed mentorship, that kind of, like, reinforced the previous experience that you had as a camp counselor, where you were also interacting with kids. And that's kind of as far as we got in terms of your journey. So I would love to hear a little bit more about how those things led you to your current role as director of clinical services. And also, I know that you said your path was quite meandering, but you also told us that the ADHD mind often follows inspiration.Bobby: Right. Eleni: So could you talk a little bit about how that applies to you and, like, ultimately how that got you to where you are now?Bobby: When you're talking about the difference between having a goal at the end of something versus exploring your interests, I think about that in terms of the way that people think about sailing, for example. Like, sailing, you might have a map of your destination, and then you just chart a course toward that destination. Whereas other people, other cultures, will kind of navigate by going to the next landmark or by going along with the currents and with the prevailing winds, but you might go from one point to the next, along the way. And so I think of my path as kind of like that. I'll start on, like, maybe one island. I kind of see what might be next there, and I'd sail to that next island. And it pushes me one way or the other. I don’t have any sense of if I'm going to end up being in Australia or Japan, but I kind of might be able to see the next way point. Eleni: I would love for you to sail me back to Australia. Bobby: I've never been to Australia, so I would love to go.Eleni: So, tell me, what were the islands that you stopped at along the way to get you to where you are now?Bobby: I graduated from college, and I think that feeling was maybe feeling lost at sea, not really knowing which way to go. But I thought about what I did know, and what I did know is that I really enjoyed working with kids. I really enjoyed Eye to Eye. So maybe I could work with kids like that, with kids who have learning differences. And where can I do that?So, the first place I went to was a school. And I think a school is almost, like, a collection of islands, because you get to see different islands of teachers. One island might be a history teacher, a math teacher, or a social worker, or a principal, and you get to see all those different roles and you can see maybe that island has a volcano and you want to avoid that one, but this one looks pleasant. It's got some swaying trees, and maybe it's got a nice river going through it. And so you sort of head toward that. So at the time, I'm sort of, I guess, in this archipelago? Is that a collection of islands? And the schools are great for that. The name of the position was instructional assistant, but I got to go into a bunch of different classrooms.I briefly thought about teaching, and I did sort of enjoy some of that. But I was noticing, hey, a lot of these kids have difficult economic circumstances. Like, one of my kids was having trouble in class not just because he had dyslexia, but also because he had spent the night before until 2 helping to watch his 2-year-old sister because his mom had to work late.So when I saw that, I could see that there are these circumstances. There are these people's lives that are really actually impacting their academics. And I wasn't going to be able to help him by tutoring him on a math problem, at least not in that moment. And so I thought, "Well, where do I go to do that? Where do I go to help?"And that led me to social work. So I went to get my master's in social work. I guess I had a prevailing wind, or I guess a crosswind pushing me to a different island where I was working with adults who were homeless. And that got me a picture of poverty. Because working with kids, you're not just working with kids. You're working with their parents, as well.And then I got blown back on course. I worked in an elementary school doing counseling with elementary students and just really enjoyed that work. So then I moved with my spouse down to New York. We're charting a new course in the sea and I think — I remembered that a friend I had met in my grad program was himself a foster child.And so I thought, "I wonder what foster care is like" — that would meet this need of wanting to work with a vulnerable population and wanting to work with kids, that would combine those two. So perhaps naively at the time, I thought, "OK, let me apply to be a therapist." And then that got me connected to Cayuga Centers. And then I guess I took a very traditional path of rising through the ranks.Eleni: Yeah. I would love for you to tell me what is it that you really love about your job? And why you think it is ultimately, like, a good fit for you, whether that's the work itself or the environment?Bobby: Yeah. I love my job in some sense because it's a job that not a lot of people want to do.I find that very valuable — is that not a lot of people want to work with kids who've been through some of the most difficult experiences and sometimes come at you with a lot of anger that is displaced from their circumstances, from what they've had to deal with. And I like at least the potential for it being a reparative experience. Being somebody that could be safe in maybe a world that doesn't feel very safe. And to bring that to kids who have been through some of the worst experiences that a kid can go through, it's really affirming. And I think that's how I can maybe deal with the fact that progress is very slow. Just knowing that I'm making some kind of impact day to day on people who really need me to make an impact.Eleni: I'm so happy you found that for yourself and then also other people have you. Bobby: Thank you. Eleni: Thanks for being here, Bobby.Bobby: Yes. Thanks so much for having me, Eleni.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Building strengths: Pick one skill for your child to work on at home
Spending more time with your child at home lets you see challenges you weren’t aware of. Discovering difficulties may not sound like good news, but it creates an opportunity. It gives you an idea of skills you can help your child build while you’re together. Working on a new skill can also be refreshing.You don’t want to put any more pressure on your child and yourself, though. The key is to focus on one skill at a time and to do it in a way that’s not intense. Here are some examples of skills you can work on, and ways to do it.Learning skillsFocusSet a timer and make it a game. Pick different activities and see how long your child can focus on them. They can be serious, like a chore, or silly, like listening to you read recipes out loud.VocabularyTell jokes and play word games. Pick a few topics your child is interested in and have frequent conversations about them. Include new words and ideas as you talk.Addition and subtractionUse pieces of cereal or dried beans to help your child “see” math problems. For example: Start with two beans, add four more, and then count out the six beans.WritingHave your child choose any topic and write something about it in a creative format. It could be an ad, a TV script, song lyrics, or a review. Younger kids can tell it to you to write down. Life skillsWashing up, brushing teeth, and getting dressedBreak self-care tasks into very small steps. You can list the steps or draw them out and then hang the directions in the bathroom or bedroom.Working with moneyEmpty a money jar and have your child guess how much money there is. Then have your child sort the coins by type in clusters that add up to a dollar. Ten dimes, 20 nickels, etc.Getting ready for bedMake a picture schedule with your child, showing all the steps involved in getting ready. Have your child create a bedtime checklist to keep track of doing each step. Social and emotional skillsNot interruptingDecide on a signal, like raising an index finger, to point out when your child interrupts. Use it when your child cuts people off or barges into conversation. Have your child use it with you, too. Coping with challengesMake a “How Am I Feeling?” visual chart to help your child identify emotions. Use it to help your child talk about feelings and ways to manage them.Picking up on body languagePlay body-language charades as a family. Take index cards and write a different emotion on each one. Have a player draw a card and act out the emotion, while the others guess what it is. Looking for more ideas? Explore tips and strategies on:Improving focusBuilding vocabularyBuilding math skills at home and helping kids work with moneyTeaching self-care routines, like using bedtime checklistsEncouraging your child to writeHelping your child make conversationBuilding coping skillsTeaching your child to read body language
ADHD Aha!ADHD runs in the family (Michelle’s story)
Michelle started to notice her own ADHD symptoms when her son got evaluated. And they’re bonded by their shared challenges and strengths. Like many parents, Michelle Lassiter started to notice her own ADHD symptoms during her son’s evaluation for ADHD. In this episode, Michelle, whose mom is from the Dominican Republic, looks back on how ADHD impacted her growing up in Mexico, Venezuela, and Puerto Rico. And she connects this to her son’s experience with ADHD — confusing signs, feeling “stupid,” and the strengths they share. Michelle also talks about parenting a child with ADHD when you have ADHD yourself: “When you’re also lacking those skills, it is very tough.”Related resourcesIs ADHD hereditary?8 things that go into an ADHD evaluation for a childWhat to do when your child says “I’m dumb”Episode transcriptMichelle: I was reading this book because I was trying to learn about ADHD for my son. And for me, it was just so emotional because I was realizing that was me. I had struggled with all these things in school, and that's why I didn't like being in school. The report cards where, you know, "She's a sweet girl. She needs to work harder."I always felt smart, but I always felt like something wasn't really working. So as I'm reading, realizing he has ADHD, I started realizing I was struggling with the very same thing as he was.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm here today with Michelle Lassiter. Michelle is a bilingual speech-language pathologist who's lived in many places, including Mexico, Venezuela, and Puerto Rico. Michelle has ADHD, and so does her son, Aidan. She also happens to be one of my colleagues here at Understood. I'm so grateful to work with her. And I'm so grateful that she's here today. Hi, Michelle. Michelle: Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for that sweet introduction. Laura: Can you tell me about Aidan? What was he like growing up? Michelle: Oh, so, Aidan has always had just a huge personality, a huge presence. I remember coming home from the hospital with him and my mom saying, "Oh my gosh, this child is a live wire," because he just — his presence filled the room from the moment he was born. And he was very smart. He was very sweet, very active, just very physically — he'd climb up me, or he just was never still. He wouldn't sleep. But he's always been just a joy to have. Laura: Did you ever notice any ADHD symptoms early on with him?Michelle: I have been a speech pathologist for over 25 years, and I was a brand-new speech pathologist when I had Aidan. He was always extremely active, but it wasn't until about 18 months — I just felt like something was not right. And he was talking, but he wasn't using language, putting words together. I noticed he didn't have any interest in sitting down with a book, learning little songs. He enjoyed singing them, but he wasn't learning the words. So, I want to say about 18 months, I went back to my pediatrician and I was like, "I'm really worried about this. I've seen this in some of the children that had been referred to me. Do you think he might be on the spectrum?" And I remember the pediatrician saying, back then, "Michelle, he's just very excitable. He's not on the spectrum." That is the very first time somebody alerted me to the fact that he might have ADHD. Laura: You weren't on board with that at first. You didn't believe it. He was young. Michelle: He was, and he definitely had all the signs and symptoms. I definitely knew something was off, but I wasn't ready to hear that yet. It's just a tough process, when you've got your beautiful baby, to think that it's not going to be everything that you hoped and planned for. As a new parent, it's definitely a daunting journey not to know. "I'm seeing some things; they're raising concerns. Is this typical?" I think that's really where I was still.Laura: And then later, in preschool, you started to notice more of what your doctor — it was Dr. Vasquez, no? — what Dr. Vasquez was noticing?Michelle: Yes. At that point in time, we had moved to Puerto Rico, and we put him in a bilingual school. His preschool teacher started telling us, "He really doesn't like to color within the lines, and he doesn't grasp his crayon well, and he can't sit still. You really need to have him evaluated by an OT." Laura: An OT being an occupational therapist. Michelle: That's absolutely right. And at that time, the occupational therapist had told us, "You know, his pencil grip isn't great. He'd much rather be outside riding a bike. I mean, he definitely just doesn't have the attention to sit down and dedicate to this."So she felt like a lot of his fine motor skills were being impacted because he preferred doing gross motor things outside. And for him, it was a chore to sit and try to do these small fine motor movements. So we moved forward to kindergarten at that school. And that's the first time a teacher had approached us and said, "I have 20 students in this classroom. And Aidan is probably the smartest in this class, but if I take him aside, I can teach him anything and he grasps it. When there's 19 other kids in the classroom, he just can't sit still enough to pay attention, you know, everything distracts him." So that was really the first time we had to sit, think about, OK, clearly intelligence isn't an issue, but he's definitely struggling to pay attention.Laura: And how are you feeling about all of that during that time? Michelle: It was clearly something he didn't have control over. As a parent, it was heartbreaking just because we knew how friendly and — sorry, he just wanted to be liked. You know, he just wanted to please. That's all he wanted. And you could tell, and it just wasn't working, and he couldn't figure out what he was doing wrong.So it was — as a parent, it — oof, I'm sorry, it is emotional just because you see your child struggling, and you know that his intentions are to be loved, but something was getting in the way of that. Laura: Do you think, Michelle, that he was aware that something was getting in the way of that? Could he express it at all?Michelle: He couldn't. And what we decided to do, Laura, was that was around the time that we moved back stateside, and we decided, "Well, let's hold him back a year. We know that he's very smart. Maybe if we give him a year to mature, maybe that will help." So what we did was, when we moved, we put him back in preschool for that half a year, and that made him very aware. So, he was very, very aware of, "Wait a minute. I was in kindergarten over there, and now I'm back in preschool." We explained to him that he had been learning in a different language, he had been learning in Spanish, and things were different stateside, you know, and at the time, that was a good enough explanation for him. But for us, we were just really wanting him to be successful. And it was clear that even though he was grasping concepts very quickly, he was definitely struggling with things that required him to sit and pay attention, like reading, or coloring, or writing. Laura: And then what happened? Did he get evaluated? Michelle: We still weren't there. We let him finish out preschool in Virginia, and then he went to kindergarten again and he had this sweet, sweet teacher, brand spanking new, and Mrs. Smith was, you know what, I mean it was everything we thought would be great for someone like Aidan, cause she was bubbly, and she was young, and we kept going to our parent-teacher conferences saying, "So, how's he doing?" And we kept hearing, "Oh, he's doing great." And we're like, "Hmm, maybe we were wrong. Maybe just giving him that year would help or helped him." And we'd keep going to our parent-teacher conferences asking, "Hey, tell us what's going on with Aidan." "Oh, no, he's doing great. He's so smart. He's the smartest one here in the classroom. He knows everything he needs to know." And I want to say, that spring, Aidan first said, and I get really emotional with this story. I apologize. Laura: But it's your child. You don't need to apologize. Michelle: For sure. It was the first time that we felt like, "Oh, we've got to do something about this," but we'll never — I'll never forget. He came home, and he said, "I'm stupid. I can never make it to recess." And that just broke my heart. So, I asked, "Well, hey, what's going on here? Why is he not making it to recess ever? I mean, he's definitely starting to feel like he's not smart. And that was the whole purpose of us holding him back for a year." And she said, "He's really smart, but he can't ever finish his work in time. And I have to be really strict in my class. And the other students need to see that if somebody doesn't complete their work, they can't go to recess." And that was it. I was like, "Yeah, if we need to get a diagnosis so that we can get some accommodations made for him, that's what we're going to do."Laura: I can't imagine how that must have felt, Michelle, to hear Aidan say to you, "I'm stupid," when you have been observing him being so smart, excelling in so many subjects. As the mother of two children myself, I mean, it is just — that had to be so difficult. How did you respond? Michelle: I went mama bear on the school. And that was probably when I started advocating for my son, and I advocated for him all through school, but that was probably the very first time. He did receive a diagnosis of ADHD at the time. And we sat down with the principal and said, "Listen, this is not OK. If he needs to complete work at home, he can send homework, but he cannot miss recess. Quite on the contrary. Somebody like Aidan absolutely needs recess, and he does better with recess." Laura: Right. That brain break, that release of energy. Michelle: Oh, absolutely.Laura: What did you learn through Aidan's evaluation process? Michelle: That time was very tumultuous for me. I think that was the very first time I decided, "OK, I need to start researching and looking into this." And I think the very first book I got was "Driven to Distraction" by Ned Hallowell. And for me it was very emotional, because as I was reading it, I could clearly see that Aidan definitely fit the profile, but I could see that I had lots of those struggles throughout my own life. I had never done well in school. I was a mediocre student at best. The report cards starting in first grade were, you know, "She's a sweet girl. She needs to work harder. She needs to complete her homework. She needs to pay more attention." Or, "She needs to dedicate herself a little bit more to class." I always felt smart, but I always felt like something wasn't really working. So as I'm reading this book, realizing he has ADHD, I started realizing I was struggling with the very same thing as he was. I wasn't hyper. I do remember my mom saying that I wouldn't sleep, like him. But I was very reserved. I was very quiet, so I didn't stick out that much in class. But, yeah, that was definitely my "aha" moment. I realized there was a name for what I had felt in school and that's why I had always been successfully unsuccessful. It just had never clicked. I mean, learning disabilities and ADHD, back when I was growing up, was just never spoken about, especially in Latin communities.There's very little awareness. So, for me, it was extra emotional going through this process because I was going through it as a parent, but I was also mourning, myself, and realizing that I could have had support. And at the same time, realizing that, you know, I had done something just out of pure resilience. I knew something wasn't right, and I just figured I couldn't give up. So it was a tough time for sure. Laura: Growing up, did your parents notice you struggling like this? Michelle: My mom was in education, so when I was going through this, I went back and I chatted with her. And I did ask her, "Hey, did you not notice that this was going on?" She basically just said, "I just didn't have very high expectations. I just didn't think that you were the smartest child in your class," kind of something to that effect. And I — Mom, forgive me — but, I mean, she just thought that I wasn't that smart, I guess. And I think that's what opened my eyes to the cultural lack of awareness for learning and attention differences, and just how we handle it. We just attribute it to, "Well, they're not that smart, or maybe they are lazy." There's a lot of stigma involved with it, and there's a lot of shame. And it's just not something that is spoken about, Laura, in the Hispanic culture. It's just not the awareness that we have. Laura: And this is not about judgment of people noticing or not noticing. That's actually why we're here, talking about the things that you notice both in yourself and in Aidan. It took me 30 years. Right? It took — everyone I talked to on this podcast, there was a long period of time during which they were confused or the people around them were confused. And I think you're right, because there is a lot of shame and it can be baffling sometimes. I'm hearing this thread in your story about Aidan, who obviously is extremely intelligent but thought he was stupid. And he's not stupid. You worrying about being perceived that way and even potentially being perceived that way in your own family, for better or worse. Now, you were diagnosed five years ago. Is that right? Michelle: That's correct. Laura: So, we know that ADHD tends to run in families. A child with ADHD has a one-in-four chance of having at least one parent who has it. Do you ever notice signs of ADHD in your mom, for instance? Have you? Michelle: For sure, in both of my parents. So, my mom, she was always a very high achiever.She definitely struggled to keep things organized. And even though she was definitely never diagnosed with anything, I do find she gets easily distracted and is forgetful. I didn't realize the symptoms until I started researching them in myself. My dad, on the other hand, was very much like Aidan. Just brilliant. He knew five languages, and he studied business because he felt like he had to support a family, but he hated it. And he was just very much — if there had been anyone that would have for sure received a diagnosis, I think it would have been him.Laura: I work with you, Michelle. You are not stupid in any way. And I hate — that's a gross word. I want to flip it. You are extremely intelligent. I see that every day, working with you, and you accommodate for your challenges, and it just makes you stronger. Michelle: It has been a learning process, Laura. And I've always felt very smart, but in an intuitive sense, not so much in a book-smart way. And I have to say that even as I realized going through Aidan's diagnosis, "Hey, this is what I have," it took almost 20 years for me to go and get myself diagnosed. Because even though I had the awareness of, yeah, he clearly got this from me, and I could talk about it, and I was advocating for him, I just never felt like, "Well, this is about me and my disability." I always felt, "Well, this is about him." I'll never forget having those conversations of, "Well, you need to organize his backpack and you need to organize his schedule and you need to keep him on a routine." And I finally told our pediatrician, I was like, "I can't do that. So you're expecting me to do with him something that I don't have the skills to do." And I think that is what eventually led me to getting a diagnosis and getting the support that I needed, because it was very hard. I know that, as a parent, you want to do what those caregivers are telling you to do with your child. But when you're also lacking those skills, it is really tough.If you don't look for the support that you need, it's very tough to support your child. So, yeah, that was pivotal in me seeking out my own diagnosis. Laura: How are you coping? What did that ADHD diagnosis, like, how did that help you get the support and accommodations that you needed? Michelle: I think in my case it was more relief. Because even though I knew it, just somebody telling me, "It's OK, this is just the way you think," allowed me to be forgiving with myself. It allowed me to be a better therapist. You know, I was working in the preschool by the time I did get a diagnosis, and a lot of parents were coming to see me with concerns about their own children. And it was so much easier to say, "Hey, listen, it's going to be OK. I was in your shoes with my own son, and I was in your shoes as an adult with ADHD." Let's find a village, but allow yourself to realize that we all have strengths, and we all have things that we're not so good at. Let's support those things we're not so good at while we are highlighting those strengths. I think that helped my conversation with those parents of children that I was treating. But it also helped with my healing process. Laura: I was thinking earlier about, you know, everything you were saying about what Aidan was going through. And I was just wondering, did your relationship with Aidan change when you found out that you had ADHD, or even when you suspected it? Michelle: For sure. So, the joke in our family is that Aidan and I understand each other, that we speak the same language, even though sometimes it's hard to come up with the words or the right language that we want to use. We are really good at other things. And we could definitely talk to each other about, "OK, yeah, so we can't keep our sock drawer clean, but we're very intuitive, and looking at other people and seeing what they're feeling, perhaps." Laura: I love that, Michelle. It sounds like there's just a lot of electricity in the air between you and Aidan. Michelle: For sure. It helps that when he was little, when we first went to get that diagnosis, I said his pediatrician at that time was very good and I'll never forget. Her name was Dr. Sprinkle. And she told us — it was amazing. And of course, I'm in tears because I know this is what's coming, and I'll never forget. She said, "Michelle, in an agrarian society, ADHD — it's not that it didn't exist, but we were out, and we were in the field. So, we weren't having to sit for hours on end and we weren't having to pay attention for hours on end. So, it wasn't a thing. But your child lives in this world, and he is being judged by others in this world.And I remember her saying, "The side effects of medication are short-term; the side effects of a low self-esteem because others don't understand your child are for life." And that's when I was able to have that conversation with Aidan and say, "You know, our brains are just different." We think in different ways; we have other gifts. So letting people judge us by the things that we can't do is just short-sighted by other people. And as long as we know that, it's OK. Laura: Aidan is so lucky to have you. You are so lucky to have Aidan. The two of you together sound like two peas in a pod and are just really lifting each other up. I mean, that gives me chills, Michelle. I think it's fantastic. Michelle: He's definitely a great kid. Laura: How's he doing lately? What's he up to? Michelle: Oh, my goodness. So he's made me go gray, and it has been a journey of highs and lows with a child with ADHD. We continued on, and there was definitely other things going on. So, he eventually got diagnosed with learning disabilities and stealth dyslexia. He graduated high school, and he got a scholarship to play lacrosse at the university. And it was a very exciting time. With COVID, he definitely struggled big time. And he was injured. He couldn't play lacrosse, and he was not doing well in school. And he was definitely not thriving with online instruction. And last December, we had to pull him out of school. I mean, he was probably the lowest point I've ever seen him. Just very depressed. We were very worried about him. But we put him in a community college near us, and we were rehabbing him as far as his physical injuries. And he's really good at things outdoors. He's always good with wilderness. And so we signed him up for a wilderness school. He was accepted. When it came time for him to go, he was, like, "I really think I would love this, but I need to go back to school and finish what I started." And both my husband and I were, like, "That might not be the right environment for you; we're not a hundred percent sure." But he worked his behind off, and he got back to the university where he was initially accepted to. And he's been working with the lacrosse coach and getting himself back on track. And he texted me last night, he got a 91 on his accounting midterm. So he is definitely grown up, and he has worked really hard to get where he is.Laura: Wow, Michelle, I mean, if that's not a story of resilience, I don't know what is. Michelle: It's amazing to watch. He's definitely my hero. He's not the perfect child, but he's definitely perfect for us.Laura: Michelle, thank you so, so much for being here. I know you from working with you. I see you in action. You do such great work for Understood. But talking with you, hearing your story, hearing about Aidan, I just feel even more deeply connected to you now. So, thank you so much for being here. Michelle: The pleasure's all mine. Thank you so much for having me, Laura.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha," from the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "ADHD Aha" on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about the show. We rely on listeners like you to reach and support more people. And if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. You can go to u.org/ADHDAha to find details on each episode and related resources. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash ADHD Aha.Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine. Jessamine: Hi, everyone. Laura: Justin D. Wright created our music. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And I'm your host, Laura Key, editorial director at Understood. Thanks so much for listening.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Coffee as a career? ADHD, dyslexia, and my dream job
David Rubinstein took his love for coffee and turned it into a career. Learn about how his learning differences became his strengths. What if you loved coffee so much that you made it your career? That’s exactly what David Rubinstein is doing — and it’s working for his ADHD and dyslexia. In this episode, David shares how his unique combination of interests and learning differences led him on a career path with stops along the way as an electrician and as a champion cyclist. Today, as a coffee professional, he packs four jobs into one: barista, espresso machine technician, roaster, and teacher of all things coffee. All that action keeps David on his toes and engaged.David also talks about growing up with ADHD and dyslexia in a conservative Orthodox Jewish family. He explains how he was able to find community and understand his passions, and he encourages others to do what they love. Learn about how David’s differences have been his biggest strengths — from speaking five languages to getting things done like Flash Gordon. And pick up a coffee fact or two along the way!Related resourcesCaffeine and ADHDCareer paths for people who don’t want to sit at a deskWhat is ADHD? Episode transcriptDavid: When I was in the eighth grade, I wanted coffee in school, and the coffee that they had was, like, really terrible. So what I did is I borrowed my dad's angle grinder, and I cut a hole in the back of my locker so that I could run the wire to my coffee maker from my locker to the outlet that's hidden behind the lockers. That hole is probably still there.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Many of us like to start our days with a good cup of coffee. I know I do. But what if you love coffee so much that you made it into your career? Today's guest, David Rubinstein, has done just that. He's a barista and espresso machine technician, a coffee roaster, and a teacher of all things coffee. David also has dyslexia and ADHD.We're going to talk about why having these four roles works for him and his learning differences. Full disclosure: We've been friends for a few years. I've been able to visit him at work and see him in action. So I'm excited to have him on the show. Welcome to the show, David.David: Thank you. It's good to be here.Eleni: So you're in a job right now where you perform a number of different roles. Do you want to talk a little bit about what each of those roles are and why they appeal to you in context of the way your brain works and the way your body works?David: I work in coffee in a bunch of different ways. So I guess the most customer-facing would be that you'll see me behind the bar. I also fix espresso machines and install them and do all sorts of tech work around maintaining and upkeep of coffee equipment, as well as roast coffee on occasion and teach classes mostly in the coffee tech part of the job.And I guess they all appeal to me because I can take this one thing that I love and kind of work it into four different jobs, which kind of keeps me interested and stimulated. And they're all with my hands, which is great — or teaching, with my mouth, I guess, but also really like showing people is, is part of the way that I teach. So again, still with my hands, and then, yeah, that feels really good for me.Eleni: Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about why working with your hands feels good and perhaps how it might relate to some of your differences?David: Being able to work with my hands means that I don't have to really, like, think in the same way as if I were, like, working with a computer or something like that and looking at a screen. Where I get kind of this tactile feedback that really, like, works for me and helps me understand what I'm doing. The more I have something in my hands, the more I feel it, the easier it is for me to, like, retain that knowledge and do it again and do it better and repeat it, and yada yada.Eleni: Yeah, definitely. Do you want to talk a little bit about what your differences are and how that might relate?David: Yeah. So I was diagnosed as dyslexic from early childhood, and that was, like, always, you know, trouble in school and kind of having the words jump off the page and all that. I remember, like, copying exercises from the blackboard, like, one letter at a time and losing my place every single time and just being so infuriated with that whole process.I also recently discovered that I have ADD or ADHD, and that's been really interesting and has put, like, my, all these different, like, times in my life into perspective in a way that I never had before and always just was kind of confused by. But even today, like having a conversation with somebody and all of a sudden having this, like, urge to, like, run out and do this one thing and then want to come back to the conversation, I kind of now have an understanding of, like, where that comes from. And that's been super powerful and great.Eleni: Do you want to talk about whether there have been any reflections that are related to, like, job or career choices?David: Yeah, for sure. I think the job that I have today, like, I don't read anything. I don't organize any numbers or letters. I'm really happy about that. And I'm sure I picked that career subconsciously, knowing that, hey, I can't do that. Or consciously, I guess that falls into the dyslexia part of it. And also like having four roles within my company, I think that really speaks to my ADD side and being, like, I would not be able to stay with this job if it didn't continuously keep me stimulated. So being able to, like, pick a career that has that is, you know, super powerful. A career that, like, I kind of don't have to — that, that my, my different learning style doesn't limit me. In fact, it probably is a boon.Eleni: Yeah. And I think that you're in a pretty unique and, like, lucky position in the sense that your challenges don't come up for you at work. Now that you're a little bit more aware, are there any deliberate choices that you're making when you're thinking about how your strengths or challenges might translate into day-to-day work?David: An interesting question. I think moving forward that's definitely something I'm going to keep in mind as I navigate career and work. And today I think, like, there's, like, this understanding of, like, a task at work that I might delegate to someone else.And I think, like, those instinctual choices have served me really well in the past. I don't do my own scheduling. I don't do my own billing. I don't do my own ordering. Uh, anything, like, along those administrative lines, somebody else takes care of. And I get to focus on the things that I'm good at, like the work with my hands, the understanding of these complex mechanical things, interaction with people. Say, like, a cafe shift, there's a line out the door and you have to make a thousand drinks in 10 minutes and being able to have this almost Flash Gordon–like speed to execute.Eleni: Do you want to explain what Flash Gordon is?David: Yeah, so Flash Gordon is, like, a comic book slash movie character. The Flash. Who, you know, is super speed everything. But also the, the whole word came about from my partner, who would be, like, in the kitchen, like, you know, chatting or whatever. And she'd be like, "Oh, can you wash the dishes?"I'll be like, "Yeah, sure." And then like 10 minutes later, she'll be like, "Hey, what? How are the dishes done? You were in front of me the whole time. I didn't see you do it." Or something along those lines and just this, and I think, like, my co-workers sometimes feel it also, where they'll, like, turn around and be like, "It's all done already?" That's Flash Gordon-ing.Eleni: Another thing that we've talked about in the past is acknowledging that maybe management isn't for you and turning down some of those opportunities. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and why you haven't gone in that direction?David: I really enjoy human connection and being able to kind of be at eye level with everyone around me. And I think, like, some of the managerial roles that I have been offered kind of would, like, change that and, like, create this kind of power dynamic that doesn't allow me to have that eye-level relationship that I really want with everyone around me. And you mentioned that, like, not everybody has, has found their — a way to make all their strengths work for them. And you know, their learning differences are apparent in some of their work. And I think, like, everybody has that to some extent. And even me, like, I'm going to be looking for other opportunities in the future, and there's going to be things that don't perfectly align. And it's just a continuous navigation through life of figuring out what works and what doesn't.Eleni: Yeah, definitely. It's all an experiment. Well, I know you talked a little bit about coffee machine repair, and I think you called it the "coffee tech" side of things. And I think that's such an interesting niche and something that I didn't really know there was a demand for or that there was a field in this. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you discovered it and why you like it?David: Yeah. My family is very crafty, I guess is the best word. And I was an electrician for a little while and did some of that, and then did not enjoy the fact that it didn't have that human experience and that human connection. So I wanted to move away from that, and I knew that coffee was a passion of mine, and I wanted to see how I could work in that space but still make rent, because coffee doesn't pay a lot of money. So it was kind of, like, an understanding of, oh, here's an interesting skill that I have through electric work. Can I kind of at least say that I know how to fix espresso machines well enough to get some hands-on experience in the field on my own? And then I actually know how to do it now. So there was a little bit of that, and, yeah, that was kind of, like, the — you know, I had a friend that once told me that you're never, you're probably not going to be the best at anything. But if you take this interesting combination of all the things that you're pretty good at, you might be the best at this combination.So I kind of, like, thought through that. I was like, well, I like coffee. I'm pretty good with my hands and technical stuff. I know some electric work. Should probably poke around them, the inside of the things that are making the coffee. And that's kind of how I landed where I am.Eleni: I've heard you refer to it as kind of like being the coffee equivalent of a car mechanic, maybe.David: Yeah. You know, cars need yearly maintenance, your espresso machine needs yearly maintenance. They both have plumbing. They both have electric. They both have a power source.Eleni: Do you kind of feel like there's an element of, you know, problem-solving or, like, detective work of like, "Ooh, what happened? What can I do?"David: For sure. It's like, is it clicking in this way? Is it not clicking in that way? Is there steam coming from here or not? That's kind of like, you know, like the plumber will come to your house, you know, will, like, bang on the wall, hit a little pipe, and everything will start working again. And then charges you a thousand dollars. And you're like, "Why is that a thousand dollars?" And he's like, "Because I knew where to hit. You didn't." And that kind of, like, speaks to, you know, the experience in the field and figuring out how to do that.Eleni: Does it translate as a skill into other areas?David: I wish it did more. They're pretty specialized. It's pretty nuanced. And the places that it does translate to, I — you know, I guess I know plumbing now. I don't really plan on being a plumber, so, yeah, I wish —Eleni: Can you fix your own kitchen sink, though?David: I definitely can.Eleni: That's helpful.David: Yeah.Eleni: Helpful life skill.David: For sure. Eleni: And you talked briefly about loving coffee. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you love about coffee and maybe some fun facts around coffee that you like to share with people?David: Sure. So what I love about coffee is that it's drank by so many people all around the world, and it's kind of this unifying human experience that is shared by so many. And that, like, leaves room for, like, amazing conversation and amazing connection, which, you know, it's kind of, like, almost, like, connection through coffee, as opposed to just this brown water that we drink.And I love the taste. I think it's delicious. I'd probably be — I don't know where I'd be without caffeine in my life. So that's, like, some of the things that I love. Um, interesting facts. So if you look at your whole coffee beans and you flip — there's the round side and the flat side, and the flat side kind of has this indent in it. So if it has a lighter-colored inside of that little crack, then they used water to process it. And if the indent inside is the same color as the rest of the coffee bean, that means that it was dried on beds, kind of like concrete slabs that the coffee's, like, spread in a single layer to dry the fruit out so that they can then easier remove the pit from it. Other fun facts? Um —Eleni: The tasting notes?David: Tasting notes are, like, super subjective. Everyone has their own, and —Eleni: You said something about there's more tasting notes in coffee than wine or something. Is that a fact?David: Yeah. There's three times as many tastes that are recognized. Over a thousand different tastes in coffee and only a little over 300 in wine. So you can say that it's three times more nuanced than wine, although I'm sure some wine people will get very upset at that.Eleni: Maybe we'll have a wine person on the show as another episode.David: There you go. They can, they can give their rebuttal. Oh, and the world's largest coffee-producing country is actually not one that you'd think it is. And I might be getting, this might be the second largest, not the largest, um, but it's actually —Eleni: Oh, I think I know the answer to this.David: Do you? What do you think it is?Eleni: I think it's Vietnam.David: Yeah, you're right. It is.Eleni: Yeah, winning in trivia!David: Um, but everyone's like, oh, Colombia or Brazil, but no, it's Vietnam.Eleni: I remember being surprised by it because I would've thought it was, like, Colombia or Guatemala or somewhere in Central or South America.Is there a story around how you kind of became focused on coffee and how that interest became so prominent?David: So when I was in the eighth grade, I wanted coffee in school, and the coffee that they had was, like, really terrible. So what I did is I borrowed my dad's angle grinder, and I cut a hole in the back of my locker so that I could run the wire to my coffee maker from my locker to the outlet that's hidden behind the lockers.Eleni: That is ingenious.David: That hole is probably still there.Eleni: Oh my God. Was it ever discovered?David: No, it wasn't, actually, but there was definitely, like, classmates of mine, they were like, "Oh, you have coffee? Can I get a cup?" But yeah, no, no, I never got, like, in trouble or anything for it. It was my little secret.Eleni: Well, that's an early indication of some interest in electrical work.David: I suppose.Eleni: Well, I think that that was actually a good segue because I was going to ask you. You know, you have this interest in coffee. Do you want to share some other hobbies or interests that have kind of come up throughout the years and whether they led to other jobs and career paths?David: I was a professional cyclist for a point that led to almost a professional career path, but not quite.Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about that story?David: Yeah. I found that the intense physical exercise to kind of, now I realize after this ADD diagnosis, I'd be like, "Oh, that's what I was doing to kind of, like, quiet the mind and quiet the body and kind of have this, like, intense physical space to kind of, like, let all that extra energy go."And I became like really, like, addicted to this, to this release, and ended up cycling for a, like, local cycling team here in New York and racing and during all of that, which led to my team sending everyone on the team to a training camp in a different country of your choosing. And I had some friends that I was visiting in Israel. So I chose to go there for my training camp, which led to me speaking to the Israeli national team to join their team, which led to a whole new life experience. And so I kind of, like, did not get back on my return flight to the States and ended up staying there for five years.Eleni: Which maybe talks a little bit to, I don't know, going with the flow of the moment, perhaps.David: Maybe.Eleni: I know you grew up in, you know, a fairly conservative Orthodox Jewish community. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, and how and if that played a role in your understanding and acceptance of some of your differences?David: I think that, like, mental health is really not spoken about in a lot of, um, conservative communities, or it's overlooked, when it's just like, "Oh, you should just turn to God." Which is not really a helpful way of, way to put it. So I think there was definitely some of that, which I was like, well, "I turned to God and it didn't work for me. So maybe let's try something else." But also, like, at the same time, like what is 20 years ago, research was just coming out about like neurodivergence and dyslexia, and especially, like, within more insular communities, which are always 10 years behind, at least, on everything. So there was nothing. So that was never really, like, spoken about, discovered — no one ever like tested me for ADD. Um, and so that was unhelpful.Eleni: So I'm curious how you ended up with your dyslexia diagnosis.David: I think it was more like, oh, we were trying to, like, study, like, the Talmud and the Torah for many hours a day. And it got to this point where it was very, very apparent and very clear that I could not read one letter of it.My mom is in the teaching field. So I think that was, like, kind of her push to, like, see where this is coming from. And then once I did get the diagnosis, not much was really done with it. And it was like, "Oh, you're dyslexic. Cool. Still, read the Talmud. Have fun." So I, yeah, so, like, I think there was kind of, like, this, even though you have the letters, um, or, you know, you're dyslexic and you have this learning difference, I don't think there was any understanding of like, "Oh, let's do something about it." It was kind of ignored.Eleni: Do you think that anything in particular happened that helped you shift away from, you know, the stigma of that and being a little bit more open and, like, getting to the place where you're comfortable enough talking about it on a podcast?David: Yeah, I definitely think there was. I think the biggest one was when I came back to the States, I was really looking for community. And I had been exposed briefly to partner acrobatics, or AcroYoga, when I was living in Israel. And when I came back to the States, I kind of found my community through that. And that's a space that very much, like, um, celebrates communication, openness, working through problems. It's very collaborative. And I think just being in spaces like that really helped me both look inwards because there's a lot of introspection in, like, "Oh, why didn't this work?" or "How can we make this better?" And just again, being around people in places that celebrate individualism really, really helps with coming to your own individualism and really celebrating that.Eleni: What have you come to, like, love and appreciate about your differences?David: Oh, that's such a good question. I really, like, love this ability to, you know, you have a task list of 15 things and to just like, you know, one after the next, just go, go, go, go, go, and get it all done. That's, like, that sense of accomplishment is really great. And I really enjoy that ability.Eleni: What about, what about from the dyslexia?David: I don't know if this is connected, but I do have, like, I'm really good with languages. The spoken word is, like, much, much more — maybe, like, that part of my brain developed a little bit more to kind of compensate.I speak three languages and understand two others, and they all come really easily and naturally to me.Eleni: What languages are they?David: I speak English, Yiddish, and Hebrew, and I understand German and Arabic.Eleni: Wow. I didn't know that. How did you go about learning those languages if you couldn't necessarily read in those languages?David: I think just, like, more immersion. I still can't read any of those languages, but just being, hearing them around me and kind of, like, facial recognition and context, it really comes pretty naturally to me.Eleni: Super cool. I wish I could do that. At some point in the conversation, you mentioned, you know, like, eventually you might be looking for the next thing. So I would love to hear your philosophy around jobs or careers, and, you know, what you're thinking in the long term.David: Yeah, I think that there's, like, two different ways to approach work. There's the "I want to do the thing that I love" or "I want to make enough money to do the things that I love." And I'm pretty well rooted in the "I want to do the thing that I love" camp. Doing a job that pays well that doesn't fill me — it just feels really exhausting and draining. So I think it's kind of, like, take all of these, like, unique combinations of yourself, like, all the different things that you love, throw it on a sticky note, throw it on the wall, and I'm sure over time, like, the right thing will, will come to you.Eleni: Yeah. That's great advice. Thanks for being here, David. I was going to say, do you want to say "thank you" in all five languages?David: Shukran. Todah rabah. Danke. Adank. Thank you.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" was created by Andrew Lee and is produced by Gretchen Vierstra and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
Types of strengths in kids
Kids have many different kinds of strengths, not just academic ones. Sometimes they’re obvious, like when a child is really good at drawing or playing sports. But other strengths can be harder to notice — like being a good listener or working well in groups. Kids who are strong in these areas often don’t get credit for it.Recognizing and talking about these strengths can help kids thrive. This is especially true for kids who are struggling in school. Use this list to help identify a child’s strengths.Character strengthsIs honest and trustworthyIs caring, kind, and empatheticHelps othersShows loyaltyWorks hard Is resilientShows independenceCooperatesSocial strengthsShares, takes turns, and can compromisePuts effort into making friends and keeping themIs a good listenerAccepts differences in othersAsks for help when neededAccepts personal responsibility for actions (good and bad)Tells the truth and can apologize when neededHas a good sense of humorLanguage strengthsUses words to express needs, wants, and ideasParticipates in discussions at home, at school, and with friendsCan change tone of voice when telling a story or asking a questionTells stories that have a clear beginning, middle, and endUses lots of words and likes learning new wordsCan answer “who,” “what,” “when,” “where,” “why,” and “how” questions in conversation (or about a story)Understands jokes, puns, and sarcasmLiteracy strengthsUnderstands the structure of sounds; can do tasks like rhymeCan sound out unfamiliar wordsEasily recognizes sight wordsCan remember details and retell stories after reading themCan make predictions based on what’s happened so far in a storyReads with expression, like the way an actor talks on TV showsMakes connections between reading material and personal experiencesMath and logic strengthsHas strong number sense, like knowing which is larger and which is smallerSees and understands patterns in nature and in numbersRemembers math facts (like 5 + 4 = 9)Can do mental math (“in your head”)Uses math concepts in the real world (like doubling a recipe)Understands math terms used in word problemsSolves puzzles or word problemsStudy skills strengthsUnderstands and sets goals; can plan aheadIs a self-starterStays focused on tasksTries different approaches (flexible thinking)Organizes thoughts and physical items (like a backpack)Follows rules and routines wellLearns from mistakes and solves problemsOther strengths and talentsIs creative/artisticDances, acts, sings, or plays a musical instrumentPlays sports or games (including video games)Practices yoga, mindfulness, or meditationTakes care of animals and/or younger childrenEntertains people by telling jokes or storiesDoes community service projectsGet tips on how to talk with kids about strengths and challenges. You can also read about how to identify signs of resilience. And download a list of activities to help kids develop a growth mindset.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Being a ship captain floats my ADHD boat
Ship captain Dave Gugliotti has ADHD — and a love for the open sea. Hear how he made a career that fits his ADHD brain. Ship captain Dave Gugliotti has ADHD — and a love for the ocean. Full of energy, yet calm under pressure, Dave’s strengths help him flourish on open water. As the seasons change, so does his work. Every day is different, with varied activities and constant repairs to keep Dave’s bouncing mind happily engaged. Dave’s never been one to sit still, and he works best with his hands. He tried to sit at a desk for an office job, but he left after a week and never looked back. In this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, we discuss how the sea called to Dave from a young age, and what you can do to explore a sailing career.Listen in to hear how Dave shaped his daily life to fit his tactile ADHD brain, and other flotsam and jetsam.Related resourcesADHD in boysWhy some kids with ADHD are the “life of the party”What is hyperactivity?Episode transcriptDave: Stop the panic, throw it away, get rid of it, get over it, because the quicker you can get rid of it and get rid of the panic, the quicker you can go back to thinking about what's wrong, what's my problem? And the way I always start is, "Is the boat on fire? Nope. Boats not on fire. Cool. Are we sinking? Nope, we're not sinking. Perfect. Then everything's fine. Let's grab a coffee and figure out what's the problem."Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spent a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. No day looks the same for our next guest, Captain Dave Gugliotti. He might be leading a chartered tour from his home base of Charleston, South Carolina. Or he might be teaching navigation skills or using his mechanical talents to fix the motor of one of his boats. The only constant is the water. A traditional office job is often not a good fit for people with learning and thinking differences. So that's why I really wanted to talk to someone like Dave, who has ADHD and chose a very different path. Welcome to the show, Captain Dave. Dave: Thank you so much. Eleni: When we approached you for this interview, you mentioned that scheduling might be a little bit difficult because of how varied your days are. And I thought it would be nice to start there and just talk a little bit about how much a typical day varies for you. And why does that work for you, or what do you like about that or enjoy about that? Dave: Well, I typically don't have a schedule except for I work seven days a week, about 14 hours a day. So it is extremely fluid. The only schedule that I have is for our charters, which I keep on a calendar, or if I'm doing a yacht delivery or something like that, that's the only hard-and-fast data that I have in my calendar. Everything else, I wake up in the morning, I don't know what I'm doing, where I'm going, or what's gonna happen.I own a fleet of three boats that we charter. And so you'll call me up and say, "Hey, Dave, we're coming to Charleston. We want to go out on the water and do a sunset tour. I want to propose to my fiancée." Or, "We're coming in for a bachelorette party. We've got 16 girls. We want to go out." Cool. So I say, "When do you want to go out?" And we schedule a time and a date, and then we put it on the calendar. So then I sort of work around that. I ping-pong off the wall and do 8 million different things. You know, recently I bought a scooter because I've got so many boats and they’re all at the other ends of every dock, and everything else, and one of our docks, it’s a quarter of a mile long, so it’s a half a mile there and back. I was talking to a couple of the dock hands today, and they could have sworn that the scooter was motorized. And I said, "No, it's not motorized." And another one of the girls that works there, she also works for me a little bit, she goes, "No, no, no, no, no. That's, that's Dave. That's how fast he goes." You know, just even doing this interview, I came back to my office two hours early, and it forced me to sit down at the computer and do all my paperwork. But for the most part I'm out running around.Eleni: That gives me a really good sense of all of the things that could possibly happen in your day. And when you say a yacht delivery, is that you're doing that on behalf of others that have just purchased boats? How does that work?Dave: So, both. So this person that I'm flying up to Virginia to pick up their boat, they just literally purchased the boat. It's sitting up there, they need to hire a qualified captain to then bring it back to wherever their home port is going to be. So they call me and say, "Can you go get it?" I'll say, "Yep, sure," and I will set up the delivery profile of that and say, "This is what we're going to do," and I'll go up and get it. And then there's other boats that are in my fleet that I manage, and I work with them on a monthly basis, and they'll say, "We want to be in the Bahamas," or "We want to go to Florida," or "We're in Florida; we want to go back up to Newport." And so we have to schedule all that stuff out. So we're starting to get into our delivery season right now. And so all the boats that we brought down to Florida now all want to go back up to New England. So within the next two months, that's what we're going to do. Once that ends, then we go into our full-blown charter season. So we'll be running charters all the time. And then during the week, if we're not doing that, we're doing all the repairs on the boat. And then once the fall rolls around, we're going back into delivery season. And then once the winter rolls around, we're back into project season. Eleni: Yeah, it's interesting that there's like a seasonal rotation and like a cyclical nature to the work.Dave: At least that's the way I've sort of set it up. I need to be able to move around quite a bit. And that's what keeps me entertained. And that's what keeps it interesting. I get phone calls all the time for, you know, again, how I switch directions. I'll get a phone call. "There's a boat stuck here. Can you come and get it?" "Sure. Tell me about it." "It has one engine, half a propeller, and no rudders and no steering. Can you move it?" "Sure. Why not? Let's see how this thing goes."Eleni: Well, I think, you know, you having mentioned that you really love that variety because otherwise you'd get bored. I think that's a really good segue to talk a little bit about why that works for you and perhaps how that might relate to some of your differences. So do you want to talk a little bit about your ADHD and how, if there's any connection there with the way that you've kind of set up your — not even your day, your year?Dave: Yeah, well, you know, when I was young, third grade, I got diagnosed with it, and they didn't know how to handle it. And they knew I was extremely smart, but they didn't know what to do. I didn't, I couldn't do a language; that was very difficult. I did extremely well in college. And then, all of a sudden, I realized I had to graduate, and in order to graduate, I had to take a language. I'm like, "Well, I guess I'm going to be a student the rest of my life, 'cause I'm not going to be able to pass anything." And then I realized in the syllabus that I can do sign language, and sign language is the hand motor skills, like I don't have to spell anything; I don't have to do anything. I can build whatever you want. I mean, you want me to build you a skyscraper, a boat, an engine, rip that whole thing apart? Perfect. You want me to write out something? Not a chance.Eleni: I think it's all about leaning in to what your strengths are. I think that's actually really interesting that you are able to think about how to address the language component in a way that was aligned with what your strengths were. If you were in a different setting, perhaps you would have needed other ways to cope, but you've actually created an environment for yourself where the way your day is structured is like a way for you to get the most out of your day.Dave: I couldn't sit in an office. I was a, you know, a stockbroker, financial planner, for a week before I quit. So yeah, I knew I couldn't do something like that. And part of it, too, you know, where I grew up, we grew up in a very affluent area, and it was expected of you to go to high school, graduate, and then go to a four-year college, go sit behind a cubicle, and suffer for the rest of your life. I couldn't do that. And so even like I started my first company when I was 13 years old. I started a lighting and sound company. So by the time I was in high school, I mean, I was making plenty of money, but I just knew that for me, sitting down at a desk or doing homework or whatever was very arduous for me. But I dug going out and doing lighting and sound, and working in the radio business, and, you know, doing theater and doing concerts, and how mobile that was and how dynamic that sort of stuff is.And so I wished, you know, when I was in high school that, you know, there could have been more direction to say, you know, "There is maritime school." They were out there at the time, but that wasn't necessarily offered to me. I don't think I was presented with that option besides go to college, get a four-year degree, and go sit and push paperwork.Eleni: I read on your website that no one in your family was a boater or a huge fan of the sea. Where do you think your inspiration came from, essentially given you in an environment where people had pretty rigid ideas of what a career looks like? Dave: Again, talking about ADHD and just always constantly thinking. You know, again, you're right. Nobody in my family was into yachts, boating, boats, water. We were not big people about that. And I was fascinated by the Titanic and ships and whatever. And we'd go on vacation to Cape Cod. And I would, I would pedal my bike, ridiculously, 20 miles away to Hyannis Port on a main road, to go to the seaport and watch all of the ships come in, the fishing boats come in. And I was so enamored by them coming in and out and the thought of, you know, you see, and this is like, just like, like, I don't know, pie-in-the-sky stuff. So you see the ship come in and the boat come in, you go, wow. You saw like the last five minutes of that ship's journey. But only they know what happened out there. Only they know what that journey was. And to be as free as that to go and come back as you please, and not know what happened during that time, it was like really kind of cool. And I was young enough to still believe in Santa Claus at this point, because I always remember that for Christmas, I asked for radar. Radar is really, really expensive. I knew I could buy the wood to build the boat. That's relatively cheap. I could scrounge that stuff up somewhere and I can clabber the boat together, but I need radar. So I would ask for Santa Claus to bring me the radar, and then it sort of progressed from there. I bought my first boat before I graduated college.So I did that, and then I just sort of progressed, and then I took the boating course, and then I realized that that was not being taught very well. And so I started working for the state, teaching for them. And then the director said, "You know, you are the youngest and best instructor that we have. Why are you doing this, you know, as a volunteer? You should do this as a company." So I started my Connecticut boating education company, and did that for many years until I moved down to South Carolina. So it just progressed from there. And moving down to South Carolina opened up a lot of doors in regards to management and different possibilities.Eleni: In my research it often comes up that, you know, neurodiverse folks really enjoy ripping things apart or figuring out how things work. So it sounds like fixing things is something that's been part of your life for a really long time and comes really naturally to you. Do you know, like, how did you learn to do that?Dave: Both my grandfathers were in World War II, and they're both, uh, their jobs were tool and die makers, so they were very hands-on. And I would go to my grandparents' house, and, you know, they would have things in their basement and in their garage that we would probably get arrested for using today. I mean, there's gears and engines on these things that would cut your finger off in a heartbeat.Well, we put them together, and we built them, and then we used table saws and all kinds of stuff, and we built stuff. I can see something, diagnose it, rip it apart, and put it back together again, kind of like in my head without actually having to do anything. So I can figure out very quickly what's wrong with something and also how to fix it.You know, I had an instance where I was 20 miles offshore a few months ago, and we lost one engine, and then we lost the other engine. So then I called the Coast Guard, and I said, "Hey, just to let you know, this is what's going on — I've lost both engines, blah, blah, blah." And their response was, well, you know, of course I'm 12, 20 miles offshore, "Maybe you should anchor and call salvage." And my response back to the Coast Guard was, "No, I'm a professional captain. I'll get both engines fired up and I will get back to Charleston." They’re like, "OK, keep us posted." So I figured out how to get one engine started, and then I got the other engine started. And then that shut down.So just worked both engines back and forth until we got it back to Charleston. And I don't really worry much anymore. I had some clients onboard just even last week. One of the engines went down. And they were all up in arms, "Oh, my God, we lost an engine." Of course, I'm still sitting there, you know, "Oh, OK, no problem. I'll go down there and check it out." I go down in the engine room. "Well, OK. We're not going to figure it out right now because we're almost there, and we'll just be another half an hour. Not a big deal." "Aren't you freaking out, right now?" I'm like, "Nope. Not at all. This happens every single week."Eleni: It sounds like being able to work under pressure is also really important.Dave: As a captain, yes. Um, absolutely. And you know, when I teach my clients, I say that there's, there's no, no room for, you know, for stress or for aggravation or for, you know, panic. Stop the panic, throw it away, get it — get rid of it, get over it, because the quicker you can get rid of it and get rid of the panic, the quicker you can go back to thinking about what's wrong, what's my problem? And the way I always start is, "Is the boat on fire? Nope. Boat's not on fire. Cool. Are we sinking? Nope, we're not sinking. Perfect. Then everything's fine. Let's grab a coffee and figure out what's the problem."Eleni: There's no immediate danger. Dave: Exactly. Eleni: Yeah. One thing that we talk about a lot at Understood is just, you know, kind of learning to fail and try again, and that it's OK to like not get things right the first time or for things to not always go the way that you expected. It sounds like a career in boating kind of means being pretty comfortable with things not going your way. And being comfortable with failure. Dave: Boats are always broken, and if it's not broken, you haven't looked hard enough or you haven't waited long enough. Once you realize that, and once you come to terms with that, your life's great.Eleni: So is that your main piece of advice to anyone wanting to get into boating, to be like really comfortable knowing that they're going to be dealing with broken things all the time? Or like, what would you tell them? Dave: It's pessimistic, right? I don't want to say that that, yes, you're going to have to deal with failure and broken things. But the reality is that's part of the job. We are in an extremely severe environment. Everything's covered in salt. You're running these engines uphill all day, every day, and, you know, like in first gear, so they're going to break. But if you manage it properly, then you can mitigate the big things that are going to break and just deal with the smaller things. And I just don't get worried or upset anymore about things that are broken. I've just resolved to the, to the fact that things are broken and we will fix them in the order that they need to get fixed in. Eleni: So it sounds like of the things that you've mentioned today, you know, one of your greatest strengths is being able to like identify and diagnose and problem-solve around whatever kind of challenges pop up and like doing it in a really like calm way, which you kind of related back to your differences a little bit and thinking with your hands and like being able to problem-solve with your hands. Do you have any other strengths that you think might be related to ADHD? Like for example, it looks like from your site that you, you know, interact with people a lot, like, would you consider yourself a people person?Dave: Yes. I’m very, very outgoing. Eleni: Do you think your outgoing nature relates to your ADHD at all?Dave: Well, from, from the hyperactivity standpoint, yeah. Bouncing off a wall. You know, I deal with millionaires. I deal with, with billionaires. I tell them, "Look, I'm going to treat you all the same, and you're going to love it. And it's going to be fun and we're going to have a great time." And, and they like that, you know? And so, yeah, that's part of being like outgoing and like witty and the ADHD, where I'm just saying weird stuff just to get a rise and see where things go and just keep everybody sort of on their toes, you know? Eleni: Oh yeah. That's really interesting. The bouncing off the walls trait is definitely a bit of a stereotype when it comes to ADHD, and not everyone presents that way, but it seems like it's definitely true for you. You definitely have a lot of energy and keep things interesting with the people you work with. It sounds like a lot of fun.Dave: You know, when I run charters, a lot of times I've got, you know, 15, 16, 18 girls onboard, and it's just me. So now I’ve got to entertain a bunch of girls, in bikinis, on my boat. It's a terrible life, isn't it? Eleni: Sounds awful. Dave: We have a lot, I mean, we just have a ton of fun, so it's not just your normal captain, just running around with, we're very engaged, we're very interactive, and they really, really enjoy that. Eleni: Oh, that sounds so fun. I need an excuse to ask you to charter a boat. Dave: No, you’ve just got to come to Charleston.Eleni: So if there are any young people listening that are interested in getting into a career in boating, what would you tell them? Dave: There's a lot of different ways to go about it. You know, there's the yachting side and then there's the commercial side. So two different ways you can go about it. If they want to go to school, there's a lot of maritime academies. There's Maine Maritime. There's SUNY Maritime. There's a bunch of others. I'm just from New England, so those are where those are from. Or, you can go and literally just get on a boat and be a deckhand. You're not going to get paid anything because there's a million people out there.I've got an ad up right now for, um, deckhand slash stew. And I always say that the qualification isn't "I want to be on the water. I just want to be on boats." That's not a qualification. That's an aspiration. I don't need aspirations. I need qualifications. Can you turn a wrench? Do you know what a screwdriver is? What's the bow of the boat? So you got to know something in order to get onboard. Otherwise you're going to start really at the bottom. But by going to one of these things, especially like a, uh, a sea school or, or just a generic maritime school and getting a deck license or a captain's license or something like that would probably be a good option to go, unless you want to, you know, do the full maritime school.Eleni: That's really great, tangible advice. So Captain Dave, how do you feel when you're out in the water? Dave: You know, it's very peaceful. You know, when I'm on land, there's a thousand things coming at me. The phone's ringing off the hook, the text messages, the emails, 8 million different boats. When you're out in the water and you're dealing only with one boat and one thing, it's peace. It's calm. And you don't do anything. Like I've learned that, "Oh, let me go bring my laptop. And I'm going to do all of this paperwork, or I'm going to read a book or I'm going to do this." Nothing gets done. And you're out there for hours and days, and you don't do anything. And you just look at the water and you — and I just do my job. I mean, every, every hour we take a log. That's about the most that's going to get done. And I'm looking at my instruments, and I know where I'm going — it's on autopilot. But I'm going to look at my course 8 million times. I'm going to look out and do this. I'm going to look at the dolphins and the sea life and the water and check things, and that's it. And it's just, that's all you're controlling and that's all you're concentrating on, and it's very, very peaceful. And then you get back in, and it's kind of like you get, you're back to civilization and landing and you're getting all this stuff coming at you again. It's like, I kind of want to go back out for a little bit.So it's interesting. I mean, you could be off shore for five days and never know what's going on. You don't have internet, you don't have satellite. We do in these larger yachts, but as a rule, I don't, I'm not listening to the radio. I'm not watching TV. We're not on satellites. We're not close enough to shore for Wi-Fi.Some of the boats I have have Wi-Fi, but we just don't turn any of it on. So your world revolves around whatever boat that you're on in the middle of the ocean. And you realize how small and insignificant you are when you're that far out in the ocean and there's nothing there. It's a very humbling experience, kind of, kind of interesting.Eleni: Well, thank you, Captain Dave for staying on land to talk to us today.Dave: You're welcome. Thank you so much.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Andrew Lee is our editorial lead. Our theme music is created by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show.For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I’m your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
Make dyslexia about strengths, not shame
Let me introduce myself: My name is Ben Foss, and I am dyslexic.When I was a kid, my mother read out loud to me. When I went to college, I’d fax my term papers home to her in New Hampshire so she could read them to me over the phone and help me find spelling mistakes.I know what it’s like to feel lonely. And I want to tell dyslexic people — especially dyslexic kids and their parents — that you’re not alone.Here I’m sharing some of the insights I’ve gained on my path from special education to completing my law and business degrees at Stanford, and eventually becoming the director of access technology at Intel. I hope these insights will help you learn the facts about dyslexia, tell your story and build a toolkit that will allow people with dyslexia to play to their strengths.For starters, let me tell you that when it comes to dyslexia, most people focus on reading or spelling. They could instead focus on shame. Shame is a feeling that you’re unworthy because of something you are. It’s different from guilt, which is feeling bad about something you did, like stealing or cheating.Shame comes from not feeling normal. But what is normal? As my mom told me when I was a kid, quoting the humorist Emma Bombeck, “Normal is just a setting on your dryer!”If you’re terrible at a thing you’re asked to do every day — in my case as a kid, reading — you begin to assume that you must be the problem, and you try to hide it. That is shame. The key to success as a dyslexic person is to understand your strengths and weaknesses.This can be very scary, and it takes time. Finding joy as a dyslexic person or as a parent of a dyslexic child involves first understanding the facts, then starting to tell your story to people you trust. Kids with dyslexia can eventually create a practical toolkit — including assistive technology like text-to-speech software or audiobooks — that allows them to play to their strengths.See Ben’s “native tongue”I’ve found that people have a hard time believing in my dyslexia when they see only the final product of my written work. These days, I generally speak to a computer and use software to have it transcribed, greatly increasing my speed and accuracy when writing. For this blog, that material went through four rounds of edits, including structural, copy and proofing, further polishing the material.Here’s what the first paragraphs looked like before that. I call this my “native tongue.”Let me introduce myself. My name is ben foss and I am dyslexic. When I was a kid, my mother read outoud to me. When I went to gollage I faxed my paper home to my nother in new hampshipe so she could read them to me over the phoe and help me find spelling mistakes. I know what it is like to feal lonely and I want to tell dyslexic peopel and especially dyslexic kids and their parents. Learn more about dyslexia. Download this dyslexia fact sheet. And parents and caregivers, try these steps to uncovering your child’s strengths.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Horse saddles, leatherwork, and ADHD
Heath Howes struggled in school with reading and focus. His passion for art and working with his hands led to a unique career in saddle making.Heath Howes has built hundreds of custom horse saddles for riders. Growing up, he had trouble with reading and writing and struggled with ADHD. Hear how he found his strengths in art and three-dimensional thinking. And get his advice on how to find a career working with your hands.Listen in. Then:Watch Heath working on a horse saddle on his YouTube channel.Check out a video of a jeweler with dyslexia who found his strengths. Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.So on this show, we like to talk to a wide range of people with different jobs and careers. In that spirit, I think today's guest would have felt right at home in the Wild West as he does in the modern city. Heath Howes is a saddle maker. He had challenges reading as a child and also has ADHD. Welcome to the show, Heath.Heath: Well, hello. Thank you. Thank you for having me.Eleni: So you're a horse saddle maker and also a leatherworker. What does a saddle maker do?Heath: I am a saddle maker. I make saddle trees. My job is putting leather on a hard form that is called a saddle tree. And we adapt it to shape for a horse so that the rider can be suspended on that animal and not get thrown off and not slide off, but also be able to work on that animal and rope cattle and other animals off of it. And that is the saddle construction. I've probably made about 500 saddles and 1,200 saddle trees.Eleni: And can you actually explain what a saddle tree is?Heath: Traditionally, a saddle tree is four pieces of wood, specifically shaped and then mounted together. A fork, a cantle, and two bars. Usually it's bound by rawhide. What I make it in is a high-density polyurethane, and I put it in a mold and then fill that. You form the tree to match the horse, the back of the horse, on the bottom side. And then you match the rider when you're constructing the saddle on the top side. The thing that I do for the majority of my job is making the saddle trees, and I send them off to saddle makers.But when I can get a chance, I make the saddles themselves, and I do custom ones. So I'll end up hand tooling or what we call carving, where you take a swivel knife and break the grain or cut the grain of the leather. What everybody wants is the thing that takes the most time, which is hand tooling. And you take these little stamps that are like an eighth of an inch by an eighth of an inch, all the way to like a half inch by half inch. And you can make flowers, you can make human faces, you can make portraits, dogs, cattle, and stuff like that, or huge geometric patterns. And anything you can think of, you can pretty much put into leather. So what I do is just dress those trees and then make belts and other things like that.Eleni: You mentioned often people are looking for custom saddles. I don't know if there's anything else that you'd like to add about why people are looking for custom saddles, like why that's important and, like, what are the kinds of things that they are looking for when they seek out a custom saddle?Heath: You know, this type of work, ranch work, is very hard on horses. So you want something that's going to be comfortable for them and yourself throughout the day so you can continue to work. And longevity is what we're looking for now. So you want a custom saddle to allow you to work not just all day long — or days being like maybe eight hours at the easiest, you know, 14 hours from dusk till dawn — but all the way into your 70s.For people that want a comfortable ride, because it's hard on your joints, it's hard on your hips, it's hard on your knees and your ankles. And so my dad's 70 and is still able to ride because of the production method that we have, you know, so we can relieve the joints with a custom saddle.Eleni: That's super cool. That's something I've never thought about.Heath: Well, who does? You just get on a horse, right?Eleni: You mentioned, like, some people ask for specific imagery or carvings. Do you have a story in mind or maybe the strangest request that you've had?Heath: I didn't get this request. It was one that I heard from in the shop, my dad's shop. And my dad's name is Mark Howes, and his shop is the Double H Ranch Saddle Shop, which is the shop that I learned and grew up in saddle making and leatherwork. A gal came in, and she was very interested in a fully floral carved saddle. And she had a particular flower set that she wanted. And when it's floral, it's the petals and then the vines and the leaves that go with it.She wanted a little animal on it too. She wanted a tree frog, and not just any tree frog. There's a specific type of tree frog that she wanted. And she starts explaining it. My dad's like, "Well, OK, so what's this, like a toad, like a bullfrog?" And she's like, "No, no, no. A tree frog." He's like, "If you could just show me a picture." She's like, "All right, I'll show you the image." So she pulls up her shirt. And she's not wearing a bra and she has two tree frogs tattooed to her breasts. And she's like, "Those, I want those frogs on my saddle." And he was like, "I think I can do that."But anyway, yeah, that was the most interesting story of someone who was like, "I want this." I just don't know.Eleni: That is very interesting. Cool. So what does a typical day look like for you? And what is your favorite thing about the process or about the work that you do?Heath: For my day, I have to structure it. I start with the small projects first, the ones that I don't like doing, and it's easier to pile that on at the beginning of the day with the small stuff, because then you can get through it. So sweeping, prepping, cleaning, and there's a lot to clean when you're messing around with plastics in its liquid form, because as soon as it hardens it cases out, what's cool is like, it's like living sculpture. It looks like just a drip all over the place, but it's hard. With COVID and everything going on right now, I've had to release the two guys that worked with me that I hired on.And for me, my mind, it was easier to talk out the process with individuals in the shop. Now it's just me. So I've got to, like, start music or a podcast or something like that. And I have something that my subconscious can work on. Otherwise my processes are just thrown out the window because I tend to overthink if I don't have something that my mind is working on. Eleni: So you said it was actually helpful to you to verbalize what your day would look like when you had colleagues around. Do you want to talk a little bit about why that's helpful to you and perhaps how that might relate to some of your learning and thinking differences?Heath: For me, it's a systematic approach to things. So I talk about it, but I guess with the ADHD, there's some compulsionary issues, but I'm also an oral learner and teacher. It's easier for me to sometimes explain something, but I gotta get it out first. You know, if I don't know what I'm doing, I have to talk about it. I'm, like, "I'm going to go do this thing; I'm going to go put this on," because if you have a good idea, say it out loud. And if it's still a good idea, then go do it. And you're like, "Oh, no, this is great idea." But when you say it out loud and it sounds horrible or awful, then just don't do it. "I said it now, and that is something bad. I'm just not going to do that."And with my process, it does change, especially now I've had to reconfigure an entire process because since it's only me, I can only make one tree a day and that mistake ratio is greater. So if I don't talk about it and think about the next step of my process, then I may screw up a tree, which is $400 a piece for me. So that's the entire day. I'm, like, oh well, that day's scrapped, but it does two things: Solidify it, the process in your mind, and assurance — confidence during the day. If you feel more confident about what you're doing every day, then showing someone else or telling someone else or doing something that's very new to you is not as daunting.Eleni: So we haven't really talked about like what your differences are. So could you describe, like, how you identify or, like, perhaps how you would describe your own learning and thinking differences to, like, a friend or a family member or a colleague, and how maybe it actually shifts depending on who you're talking to? Heath: Yeah. I have had better success at talking about my issues with my friends rather than my family. And I'm not certain that that's going to be for everybody. It just happens to be, my folks tend to think that whatever difficulties I have has a bearing on how they taught me or my upbringing. And so I don't tell my folks that. I was just recently diagnosed with ADHD. Although I know that I have had it for a long time because the struggle has been real. It's just when I was in school and I broached this subject with my folks the first time, and I was, like, "I think I have that." And my mom's, like, "Even if you do, there's ways around it, you don't have to take it, because I don't want you to take anything chemically."I'm, like, OK. And that was one conversation many, many years ago. And that was it. That was the end of it. No bringing it back up. But I can talk to my friends and say, I think this is a problem. So when they suggest books to me, you know, when I was younger, it was, "Is it entertaining or is it educational?" Because if it's educational, I will struggle through it, most because of the larger words; because as I read, I don't read left to right. I look at the center of a word and then assimilate the letters that way. Is it something I'm familiar with? Like, is that word recognizable as it is just physically written?Otherwise it doesn't look right. And then, like, fonts usually throw me off. If it's the same word and it's written in a different font and it doesn't look right, I won't know the word. I'm like, Tucson. What is that? Or I'll say "Tuckson." I don't know. That's still Tucson. It's still spelled Tucson. You know, but for me, I just recognize a word like a face. Is your face familiar? Is that word familiar and then reading right to left, I just assimilate the idea of "What is the sentence trying to tell me?" But now, I mean, it's easier nowadays. I can read books if it is exactly a book that I want to read. Writing, for me, even though I know what it is I want to say, my mind is still going too fast and my hands are too slow. Just can't do it. It takes me a full day to write a page of thought. I don't understand why, for me, I just can't do that. But I know that some individuals can put those ideas together and then they see that idea and then they can run with it and they can just type it and go along. I knew that I wasn't able to sit down and write and type at a computer; it just takes me forever.I was like, even though these things are fun, I cannot do it. Now, the one thing I was able to do, and this is the weirdest thing, in my creative writing class. It came to our poetry writing. One of the things we had to do, and I was like, "Oh, poetry."And the teacher was like, "Just write in freeform." I was like, "Crap." OK. Freeform, not going to do it for some reason. My mind needs a type of structure. It needs sequence. I decided to look into French strict form. French forms are some of the hardest in order to follow. That was easy for me. The rhyming schemes, well, you just got to figure out what's going to happen, but I can follow that. I can follow that system, but I can't do freeform poetry to save my life. Eleni: So you mentioned that you were diagnosed later, and you know, when it came up when you were younger, your parents kind of dismissed it or didn't allow you to pursue that further. Do you think that your differences, like, influenced either your interest or where you decided to go with your career, even without having that diagnosis? Heath: Absolutely. When I was learning in school, I would keep at least a notebook with me that wasn't for writing. It was an art book, but for the most part, it was drawing circles while the teacher talked, or triangles, or Xs, and things like that.But it would just be a form of making the muscles do something, the subliminal mind do something. And, uh, the first few times I did that, my teachers did not know, and they thought I was being disruptive. And I was like, "How am I disrupting you by drawing? You know, anybody who's taking notes is still going to be scribbling on a page, but you're upset that, like, there's circles happening." There's a disconnect there. They think I'm not connecting to them. And I was like, "This is for me to listen to you while not like losing my s*** in class," you know?So, the tangible arts became easier. Drawing became easier. So, as I went into specific classes of education, I did art class, a sculpture, and those came easy; three-dimensional thinking became easy. So, I did architectural design while I was in high school. So, model building — part of that class was using CAD programs as they first came out. I could see all of that because my hand was already building those things. But because of the limitations, I wasn't able to just sit and listen. I had to do something and to clear my mind, you know, so I could pay attention.So making an art piece at the end of the day, and then rather than make model kits, I just decided to start making models myself, carving woods and pieces like that into something else. Which leads to what my dad was already doing. I just, you know, would do that every now and then, but I got into construction and art and everything, and that went into theater, like actual theater, all the backstage stuff, lighting, set painting, prop making, and things like that.All the tangible stuff that you don't think about when you're watching a movie. Being able to do that and look at it and see things three-dimensionally and see it as someone's describing it to me, someone's like," I want it like this," and they're very vague, but I can see it three-dimensionally already in my mind and then do a partial draw or a thumbnail sketch of it.Eleni: Like, in terms of your story around the types of things that you are interested in, it sounds like, you know, right now you're working with your hands and that seems to be like a big part of what you were drawn to in terms of sculptures and creating 3D objects. And you mentioned earlier, working with plastic and working with leather, I'd love to hear more about what you really enjoy or not about working with these materials. And then also, like, how this process, like, engages your other senses. You mentioned bringing music into it, but I'm wondering, like, about texture and scent and, like, other sounds.Heath: When you're working with leather, there is a term, "gaining your hands." The leather is a bio material. Once it's tanned, it's not all hard. You still have armpits. You still have neck. You still have stomach. You still have these areas where this very flexible bilateral cell structure makes for weaker points, when you want stronger leather pieces.Now, the thing is when you're trying to shape leather into these convex and concave areas where there's four different shapes and sides that it all has to go on, some of that knowledge you do need to utilize, but reading the leather as it's just a side of hide, just looking at it, you don't know. Touch the leather. This guy that used to work for my dad would be like, "Make love to the leather," but you're still using your hands to see how that structure is moving because you still can't, if you're looking at it, you still don't know what it does. Does it feel boardy? Does it move with your hands? But there's a ton of smells go in there. And plastic, sometimes stuff reminds me of cinnamon, which is weird because none of it is chemically balanced, chemically made to smell like cinnamon or chocolate or vanilla. Eleni: So Heath, uh, many of our listeners didn't grow up on a ranch, um, but you know, they might be interested in saddle making or leatherwork, or just like some of the other hands-on work that you mentioned, like sculpture making, prop making. How do you suggest that people get into this type of work?Heath: If someone's wanting to get into saddle making, find a professional. There's a lot of videos out there on how to carve and stamp leather on YouTube. And I myself just started one for specifically saddle making, but there's a few YouTube videos out there for individuals that want to find out more. If you want to try making something with your hands and you want to try clay, buy some modeling clay and just do some basic figures, a full human form. It does not have to be detailed, but just building a body, and then build a head. If you want to start a three-dimensional thought, start with models, car modeling, or even those 3D puzzles, because you want to fulfill your creativity and curiosity. Just do a 3D foam puzzle. Watercolors are very, very cheap. Paints are very, very cheap. You can get them at any big block store, but the thing is to start.No matter how confident or lackluster you are in your abilities. You're like, "Well, I have a hard time drawing stick figures." It doesn't matter. Just draw the stick figure, then add more to that stick figure. But for those individuals that want to start, just start. Eleni: Thank you so much for chatting to me.Heath: Thank you so much. It's been wonderful talking to you and telling everyone about my story.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job. Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
How my students’ strengths have shined
The pandemic brings new challenges to learning, especially for kids who learn and think differently. But kids are showing strength and resilience during the pandemic. They’re even developing new strengths as they work through challenges. Kids don’t always see these strengths in themselves — especially when it comes to school. It’s important to take time to recognize and celebrate their strengths. Watch this video to hear Understood Teacher Fellows talk about the strengths they’re seeing in their students.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Advice from a career coach with ADHD and dyslexia
Alex Gilbert is a career coach with ADHD and dyslexia. After working in leadership development for years, she started her own coaching business. Alex Gilbert is a career coach and consultant with ADHD and dyslexia. She helps people with learning and thinking differences navigate their day-to-day work — and play to their strengths. After working in leadership development for years, she pursued her dream and started her own coaching business, Cape-Able Consulting.Because Alex was diagnosed at age 8, she had accommodations throughout school. During college, she realized that all of these supports would disappear when she graduated. So she started a mentorship program at her university to help those with learning and thinking differences prepare for “real” life. She’s been in love with coaching others ever since. Now, Alex helps others learn about how they work best, try out tools, and advocate for themselves. Listen to hear more about red flags in the workplace, and how to tell the difference between challenging and hard.Related resourcesCape-Able Consulting, Alex’s consulting firm32 examples of workplace accommodationsEpisode transcriptAlex: If you have a learning disability or you have ADHD, and you've looked up every article there ever was written on how you can manage your learning disability or ADHD in the workplace, and you've tried every one of them and they don't work for you, you think, "There's something wrong with me." And the truth is, there's nothing wrong with you. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. Alex Gilbert has ADHD and dyslexia. She's the CEO, founder, and coach at Capable Consulting. She works one-on-one with people with learning differences like her own to customize the right coping strategies for them. From creating a mentorship program for students with disabilities at her university while studying there to working in program and leadership development for over a decade, her experiences display her passion for disability inclusion. She has endless insight on choosing and creating the right working environment for you and advice based on her own lived experience. Thank you for being here, Alex. Alex: Thanks for having me. Eleni: So, you have ADHD and dyslexia and it's part of your business. You work with people with similar challenges. So, I thought a good starting point would just be to tell us about your business and who you typically work with. Alex: Sure. So, I started my business in 2021 after I had been laid off from my job due to COVID. And this is something that I have dreamed about doing since I was 16 years old, because I was really privileged to be diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD at 8 years old and had resources all the way through college. And when I was starting to apply to colleges, I had this resource room teacher who basically said to me, "You're not really going to amount to anything, because on paper you represent somebody with a lot of disabilities." And I kind of looked at her and said, "Are you being serious right now? Because I also represent a lot of other things that's also on paper. I'm president of this club on leadership in this group. That's also on paper. How do you not see my skills as something that's valuable or see me as someone worthy of your time?" And that kind of, that messaging really stuck with me through my whole college experience and my career. And so when I was laid off, I said, "You know what? It's time." I really wanted to find new ways to support people who are in this space, who could use that extra boost of confidence to know that they had value, to know that they had amazing, like skills and strengths, that if we just leaned into them and they had a little extra support, that they could do that. There's really very little resources out there for adults. That's my bread and butter, is working with adults who are in the workplace or struggling at home to manage it all on a day-to-day basis. Eleni: Yeah, and that's such a great synergy with what we're trying to achieve at "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" too, because there is definitely like a gap there. It's like we know that you don't grow out of a learning disability, so you know, why should resources end? Alex: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like apples and oranges. I was trying to explain this to one of my clients yesterday. I said, "Yes, I had resources, you know, in high school. What does extra time on a test look like in the workplace?" Like, how do you explain I need extra time. You don't even know how to have those conversations, let alone know what resources need to be used in these spaces. Jobs should be challenging and not hard. And when you are doing a job where every aspect of your job is hard, it leads you to feel burnt out, frustrated, maybe you even get fired from your job because it's really just not in your wheelhouse of things that you should be doing and you're not really leaning into those strengths. Challenging means you can take something that's really interesting. Like right now what I'm doing every day is I'm being challenged by new clients who have new situations, and every day is something exciting to me of how can we problem-solve together? I don't find it hard. I'm not sitting here doing, you know, math problems and Excel every moment of my day. Do I do that as a small business owner? Of course I do. But that's not the forefront of what I do. Eleni: Yeah, I love that. Would you say that your problem-solving skills and that strength comes directly from your ADHD and dyslexia? Do you think it's related? Alex: 100 percent. I've had to learn to adapt to a lot of situations constantly, which is what a lot of people with learning disabilities and ADHD and, you know, executive dysfunctioning and you name the disability — like insert here — you're constantly learning how to adapt and figure out how you can make this situation work for you. So, part of it was the skill set that I had to be able to problem-solve quickly. And part of it was the environment that I was constantly in to figure it out. But that said, those became my strengths. Eleni: You mentioned that you have a lot of different types of people coming to you. And you know, one of the things that you enjoy is that like every person is different. Are there certain types of people that you see more often or certain reasons that people are more likely to come to you? Alex:This is one of those things that I could tell you from the beginning of when I started my business, what I thought I was going to get is not at all what I got. But it's OK, because I'm learning and adapting and getting to know other people and other pain points for people. I thought when I would start my business that I was going to be talking to people who were similar to me in the sense that they had resources and it was kind of pulled out from under them, like the rug was pulled out from under them and they didn't know how to manage in the workplace. What I'm actually seeing now, I would say 95 percent of my clients are people who are recently diagnosed with some type of learning disability or ADHD, and they're kind of looking to me and saying, "OK, now I have this diagnosis, now what? What do I do? Where do I start? Because the diagnosis is in my hand, but that means nothing if I can't do anything differently." Eleni: Yeah, interesting. And what do you think is particularly unique about having a more recent adult diagnosis? And how do the challenges kind of present differently when that's the scenario?Alex: There is a tremendous amount of masking that has happened subconsciously, because you are living your life not knowing there's something wrong, but at the same time knowing there's something wrong and being frustrated that you can look around and see, "How did someone just do that in like 20 minutes when that just took me 2 hours?" That sits with you really deep. And that emotional aspect of it is really shameful. You know, you were constantly maybe called lazy or stupid, you know, again, in certain negative connotations that you can put in there not only externally, but what you're telling yourself because you don't know something is wrong. So, a lot of the times when I'm talking to people, it's trying to unpack all of these pieces of their life that is really overwhelming and kind of putting the pieces back together to say, "You know what, this isn't me. This was a disability that I didn't know I have. But how can we get to the root of what was challenging so that we can move forward and make it easier for us and erase a lot of that shame?"Eleni: Yeah, we've had a few ADHD coaches on the show, and it sounds like you focus more broadly on like learning and thinking differences, and it seems like a lot of those courses can apply to people with a variety of differences. Alex: Absolutely. Eleni: Do you change your coaching methods based on like the type of learning and thinking difference you're seeing? Alex: I mean, you can come to me and tell me these are your learning disabilities, or this is your ADHD diagnosis, and I kind of have that in the back of my head as we're trying to create structures and programs for the individuals. But I also want to give them a space to see their strength and their value. And a lot of the times when you are coming and getting a diagnosis, you're focused on the diagnosis itself and all the weaknesses. So, the actual diagnosis itself is less important to me. It's more that I'm creating something that's individualized for you. And this again comes from over a decade of program and leadership development. And I coach people on something called best principles versus best practices, because best practices assumes everyone can do the exact same thing and end up with the same results. So, if you have a learning disability or you have ADHD and you've looked up every article there ever was written on how you can manage your learning disability or ADHD in the workplace, and you've tried every one of them and they don't work for you, you think, "There's something wrong with me." And the truth is, there's nothing wrong with you. They're very generalized. Those programs can be wonderful for many people. But maybe one part of it works and not the other. So, let's dissect it. Let's figure out what part of that situation works so that we can apply it to you. Eleni: Yeah, that's great. And it makes a lot of sense, too. You mentioned a few times that you were lucky enough to be diagnosed very early, when you were 8, and you had all these resources throughout school and college and then you got to the workplace and you realized, "Oh, like what does it look like?" How did you cope then? How did you kind of figure out like what you needed as you entered the workplace? And then how do you now pass that knowledge on? Alex: While I was at Indiana University, I created a mentor retention program for students with disabilities to make sure that they graduate and they didn't fall behind. I had trained 50 different students on how to mentor other people, how to learn, how to advocate. I taught a hundred students on how to advocate for themselves in the classroom. So I thought, "I got this." I'm going to the workplace. I know exactly how to advocate for myself. I know how to teach other people how to advocate. I was not. And so, I was, I think I was really like hit in the face very hard because it's so different. And I couldn't label specifically why it was so hard for me to be in this job. But when I think about everything about my first job, I was in a small office with five people, and I was the first desk that you saw. Everyone who came to the office came to ask me a question because, you know, that's the first person they saw. I asked if I could have noise-canceling headphones and I was told no because it would look rude if I was the first person you saw and I was wearing headphones. And I was like, one, I didn't know that that was illegal. But, you know, I'm 22 years old, I don't know what that looks like. I was so anxious because I couldn't finish my work on time. And I would stay late and I would try and come in early. I remember my now husband, he was my boyfriend at the time, I remember saying to him, "I'm like, I'm getting all of these migraines. Like, what if there's something wrong with me?" I just like, wanted, I wanted answers. And when I thought about it, I was like, "Oh, I'm depressed. I'm depressed." And when I was talking earlier about what it was like to have all of these different careers, those were the moments where I thought I was being pulled further away from my career experience when really it was pulling me closer. Because if I can connect to that feeling that people are having, that overwhelm, that depressed feeling, that frustration, I couldn't do my job well. Eleni: Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that and being able to reflect back on that and really be able to take something away from it that, as you said, has now actually brought a lot of empathy to your current work. Alex: Totally. Eleni: I'm glad something good came out of it. Alex: Yes. Definitely. Eleni: Yeah. So, when you think back to those moments, are there any like tools or supports that you wish you had early in your care, or even with having like all of those advocacy skills? What was still missing for you? Alex: I would have really appreciated someone talking to me about what success looks like in the workplace, and what those accommodations could have looked like. Because it, had I been in that same job, I would have asked to have not physically been in that office situation that I was in. There were several offices upstairs. I would have asked if I could have been a part of that. I would have thought a lot harder on the fact that I was asking for noise-canceling headphones, because that was an accommodation that was legally my right to ask. I would have asked to possibly change my work hours and I would have come in maybe earlier to do my work and left earlier in the day, because the end of the day was when it got really even noisier. There were so many different pieces that I could have asked that might have been red flags that I didn't know. And the other part of it is knowing what kind of manager is going to help you succeed. And when I talk to people in the course about getting to know what their needs are, thinking about the professors that were the most accommodating, the most supportive. What about your experience with them, your communication style, worked for you? Eleni: Are there any like tangible tools that you recommend? Alex: I love Grammarly and Speechify, and I wish that I had known about that when I was actually in the workplace because that would have saved me a lot of grief. I had adaptive technology when I was in college, so when I had to read really long paragraphs, my books, my textbooks were read to me. Speechify does the same thing with your emails, with your internet browser. If you got something in person and you wanted to take a picture of it and it would still read it to you. I think that's a really great tool that I think should be available to everybody. Grammarly I think is similarly really important to have because people who have dyslexia or have ADHD, maybe you send emails impulsively. Is that the tone that you wanted to send? Did you miss like several words? Did you miss attaching something when you said you were going to attach something? Eleni: I love that. I thought a nice way to wrap up would be, you know, just to ask you, like, what was the number one message that you wanted to convey to our listeners? Alex: I often try and remind people of what they're capable of, and we have so many strengths and we have so much value to bring. And I want people to feel empowered by their skills and their strengths and really be able to prove people wrong. And that has always been my mantra kind of growing up of wanting to prove people wrong, that just because I was dyslexic or ADHD didn't mean anything, that I wasn't I wasn't going to accomplish my goals. Like just watch me. Eleni: I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of your amazing knowledge and for being on the show. Alex: Thank you for having me. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. The show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. We'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at U.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot org slash workplace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to help people who led and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!"is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Mathis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
My kids have different strengths and challenges. Here’s how I set goals with them.
As a parent, I always knew my kids were unique individuals with their own strengths and challenges. Once they started school, I began to fully understand the depth of their differences. That’s when I realized the importance of setting tailored goals for each child.Setting academic goals became a delicate dance in our family. For my youngest son, now a fourth grader, we set goals that challenge him appropriately. We also focus on keeping his enthusiasm for learning. But for my oldest son, now a 10th grader, his goals are quite different. Because he has an IEP, we focus on incremental progress and celebrating milestone achievements – while also tapping into his love of learning. To help my kids better understand the importance of their individual goals, I have private conversations with them. We talk about their strengths and challenges. Then we set goals, free from comparison with siblings. We keep these goals private. But we do discuss goals that apply to both kids as a family — goals around self-advocacy, school supply management, and kindness. Over time, our entire family’s understanding of individualized goals has deepened. But it was not always easy, especially for our kids. We went through the “it’s not fair” phase when one sibling noted their A versus the other’s C. “But why doesn’t he have to do it?” was often the question we had to answer. My husband and I also had to confront our own expectations and biases. It’s easy to fall into the trap of wanting kids to achieve the same academic success. But we soon realized that true success meant different things for each child. The goals may be different but the expectation is the same: Do your best and be your best. Tips to get started with goal-setting Setting individual goals with siblings is not easy, especially when one child learns and thinks differently. Here are two tips on how to get started.1. Start conversations within the family early. Be transparent and consistent.As a family, talk about how everyone has different strengths and challenges. Discuss how goal-setting helps us get better at both the hard and easier things. Talk about how fair does not mean everyone gets the same goals. Have ongoing conversations about strengths and challenges to help siblings understand their differences. But don’t expect instant acceptance. In my own home, the struggle is real — some days it’s really light, and other days it’s really heavy. 2. Help each child know that their differences matter — both their challenges and their strengths. We learned the hard way that comparing our kids’ achievements is not a good idea. Instead, we celebrate each child’s progress as its own achievement. We also explain to our kids that one sibling’s high grade doesn’t take away from the other sibling’s progress. And one sibling’s learning differences don’t diminish the other’s accomplishments. Talk with your family about how each child is on their own unique path. Ensure that your role as a parent is to support them wholeheartedly.Our family’s journey taught us that academic goal-setting is not a one-size-fits-all approach. It’s about recognizing each child’s strengths and challenges. It’s about celebrating both achievement and effort. Most importantly, it’s about listening to our kids and responding to their individual needs with empathy and love. Learn more about how to talk with siblings about their challenges. Get tips for praising kids without causing sibling rivalry. And hear more from DeJunne’ on this episode of the In It podcast.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Workplace self-advocacy, experimentation, and taking chances: What we’ve learned from this series
In the series finale of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, host Eleni Matheou unpacks what we’ve learned about how people thrive at work. If there’s one thing we’ve learned throughout this show, it’s that people can thrive at work not in spite of their differences, but because of them. People with learning and thinking differences like ADHD, dyslexia, and dyscalculia all have strengths. But sometimes it takes finding the right job — and the right tools — to allow them to shine.In this final episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?!, host Eleni Matheou looks back at themes we’ve seen from guests in the series. Tune in to learn how taking a chance, experimenting with strategies, and asking for support can help you on your career path. Related resourcesHow to ask for a workplace accommodationPerspectives: How did you decide on a career path?Talking about work challenges with co-workers is a game-changer. Here’s how to do it. Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is coming to an end. But we've talked to a lot of people, and it's clear now more than ever that people thrive not in spite of their differences, but because of them. There is not one particular job or industry that is best suited to people with learning and thinking differences. It's really about aligning your work to your unique interests and skills, which means you could do anything.As we're ending the show, I wanted to share some highlights from talking to some of our fantastic guests. In this final episode, I will be sharing four key takeaways that we've learned, and I will be going through some examples of where we've heard these from recent guests.Firstly, many of the guests on the show are freelancers or entrepreneurs — we've seen a lot of people either create flexibility within their existing positions or create new opportunities from the ground up.Secondly, we've learned that choosing the right work environment can allow you to be yourself, get things done, and improve your mood and job satisfaction.Thirdly, experimenting and finding the right tools and supports that work for you is crucial. Almost everyone I spoke to went through a lot of trial and error to create their own unique toolkits.And finally, asking for support does wonders. There's nothing wrong with asking for help, and by doing so, you advocate for yourself and break the stigma for those around you.First up, let's talk about this idea of taking the leap. Gil Gershoni took his first leap towards his own branding firm by saying yes to something he didn't quite know how to do, but he was confident his dyslexic brain could figure it out. He's now the creative director of the branding firm Gershoni Creative. He advocates that dyslexia is a hyper ability, that is a strength, not a deficit. Gil took a risk, and it paid off as his first client.Gil: Yeah, I think that's something that I've heard from a lot of dyslexics that we sort of march on drumbeat, we found our own paths, you know, and if I went to a proper interview and had to write something to do it, I probably would never get the job. But the fact that it just sort of I was open to it, I was at the right place at the right time, and I just kind of took the leap, you know, kind of changed outcome, and it happens every time. I mean, everything we do it sort of starts somewhere around that place.Eleni: Delia Gallegos put time into a hobby of fandom. This side passion helped her balance her work life with her ADHD. She became very involved with Black Nerds Create, a collective for marginalized creators to make fandom content. When she saw they needed help in their business operations, she offered her skills. One thing led to another, and they eventually expanded, and she became the chief financial officer. Now she works in an area that she loves.When you really think about this story, Delia wasn't taking a huge leap, but she did see an opportunity where her skillset was needed.Delia: I was just like, "Hey, you guys seem to need help in these specific areas, specifically like with business operations." That's kind of, in my, at the time, in my day job, was kind of like my bread and butter was I've worked in pretty much most facets of like business operations except HR. And I was like, "I can help, you know, shore that up. Like, why don't we just build this thing out?" And so, that's kind of how it happened. And so, here we are years later, and I am fully the CFO.Eleni: Alex Gilbert is a career coach with dyslexia and ADHD. By taking the lead to start her own business after being laid off from her job, she leaned into her strengths, which just happened to be encouraging other people to lean into this.Alex: And so, when I was laid off, I said, "You know what? It's time." I really wanted to find new ways to support people who are in this space, who could use that extra boost of confidence to know that they had value, to know that they had amazing skills and strengths, that if we just leaned into them and they had a little extra support, that they could do that.Eleni: My next point is about creating the space for yourself. You don't have to create something completely new. You can revamp your existing work and make it feel new. Also, the right environment can make all the difference. It's not always about the work itself. Culture can change everything. If you're able to find a space that fits you better, run with it. Rachel Basoco splits her time between a full-time job at Fidelity, and a part-time role at 11:11 media. She's built this system with flexible hours that work with her ADHD brain.Rachel: I will work later in the afternoons or evenings during the week. And so, I think having a work from home or a more flexible work schedule has been helpful for me in that because it allows me to tap into my most productive, creative, focused times. Like honestly, like between hours of 7 p.m. and 11 p.m., I'm probably the most focused I am all day. I could just like sit and like hammer out a lot, like super focused.But between the hours of probably 2 p.m. and 4 p.m., I'm always like, "I'm useless right now." There's not much I can do to like jump-start that, unless it's something that's new and exciting and I have to create a, again that faux excitement around it. The tools and resources are really just like a) learning how to structure my day so that it works for me, and I can be productive, but b) also being able to communicate with my team and managers and people I work with and having some firm boundaries, which I think took me a while to figure out.Eleni: Michael Upshall Jr. worked at a desk job and would watch the hours go by. The office setting wasn't working with his ADHD and keeping him engaged. It also hurt his work ethic. At his family carpentry business, he's found the right setting for his brain.Michael: Being on-site and having all of the noises and the banging and the, like, just everything, so many different moving components going on. It's crazy how much more energetic and how alive I feel at work rather than almost kind of just feeling like a carcass sitting at a desk all day. And that doesn't mean anything bad towards anybody that does work a desk job. It's certainly not bad at all. It's just, it's really not meant for me.Eleni: Dina Ragab is a lawyer who has determined that the office is not for her. Needing to mask ADHD in the office can be exhausting. Dina's figured out what is important to her in a workplace setting.Dina: I don't know if this is my ADHD or if it's just who I am as a person, I never want to work in an office again. It is immensely important to me to be able to decompress alone. It is immensely important to me to be able to express myself off camera and where my body and my face are not being policed by other people because it is more difficult for me as someone with ADHD. Or maybe it's just who I am. It is more difficult for me to create a neutral body positioning just for someone else's comfort.Eleni: If you're running into the same problem over and over in different environments, you may want to experiment with different tools or strategies. Different things work for different people. Alex Gilbert talks about how a job should be challenging, not hard. This distinction is important as it can help you determine if you're in the right place or if you need more support.Alex: Job should be challenging and not hard. And when you are doing a job where every aspect of your job is hard, it leads you to feel burnt out, frustrated, maybe you even get fired from your job because it's really just not in your wheelhouse of things that you should be doing and you're not really leaning into those strengths. Challenging means you can take something that's really interesting.Like right now, what I'm doing every day is I'm being challenged by new clients who have new situations, and every day is something exciting to me of how can we problem-solve together? I don't find it hard. I'm not sitting here doing, you know, math problems in Excel every moment of my day. Do I do that as a small business owner? Of course I do. But that's not the forefront of what I do.Eleni: Let's talk about Dan Reis. Since being diagnosed with ADHD, he's made it his mission to learn about all the tools that might help him. Dan works as a product designer and has experimented a lot to find what helps him work best.Dan: One of the apps that I've used for a while now Focus@Will, and that's music for focusing app. It's got music that's geared towards keeping you focused, but you can set it up as like a timer and you can choose different tracks. Another one that I found that is really helpful — this was actually a really big game changer for me — so I combined the Pomodoro method of doing 25 minutes on and like 5 minutes off. So, 25 minutes of focused work and then take a break for 5 minutes and then I do a little workout.And that transition I found is really helpful because it is a, it's like I keep up some of that momentum of like I was working and excited and going, and then doing a little bit of a workout gets the heart rate up and it helps me to transition from the work to taking that little bit of a break.Experimentation, testing and learning, and self-compassion combined so that when you struggle and fail or something doesn't work, you are there for yourself and you don't just abandon yourself. You keep trying new things. And I think that week, one- or two-week trials of changing your routines, learning about habits, and learning about how the mind works in terms of like habit building. And then trying things out has been instrumental for me. And it's a constant process.Eleni: Let's go back to career coach Alex Gilbert. She helps people find the setting that they work best in. With that, comes a lot of great tool recommendations.Alex: I love Grammarly and Speechify, and I wish that I had known about that when I was actually in the workplace because that would have saved me a lot of grief. I had adaptive technology when I was in college, so when I had to read really long paragraphs, my books, my textbooks were read to me.Speechify does the same thing with your emails, with your Internet browser. If you've got something in person and you wanted to take a picture of it, and it would still read it to you. I think that's a really great tool that I think should be available to everybody. Grammarly, I think is similarly really important to have because people who have dyslexia or have ADHD, maybe you send emails impulsively. Is that the tone that you wanted to send? Did you miss like several words? Did you miss attaching something when you said you were going to attack something?Eleni: Tools and strategies are not always obvious. Omar says to seize the hyperfocus when it hits. This gets into the world of mindset and strategy. If you're compassionate with yourself and lean into your strengths, you'll find what might derail others, might actually help you accomplish your work.Omar: I think the tendency to procrastinate, which is very, you know, very real for people with ADHD, I think it often comes from procrastinating work that isn't very meaningful to us. My advice is to forgive yourself for that and to try to find some aspect of that same work or new work that does challenge you or more importantly, is meaningful to you. And that kind of sparks that hyperfocus. And then when that focus strikes, don't waste that opportunity. Set aside the time you need. Make space for yourself. Whether that's asking your roommate or your partners to maybe vacate the house for an afternoon or to vacate it yourself, go down to a library or café or wherever you need to go and just start writing it or drawing it or planning it.Eleni: Omar told us about mindset. But what about actions you can take? Let's get a little more specific on routines that you can put in place. For Scottie Donovan and many others, a consistent routine is what helps keep everything on track. Scottie is a wastewater engineer with ADHD, and having a set schedule helps her keep her momentum and on track with her work.Scottie: I also kind of made routines during the day, like during my 9 to 5. You know, I got there at 8:45, I would give myself 15 minutes to have coffee and just, you know, get all settled up until 9:30, you can answer emails and then, you know, go get more coffee or something if you need it. So, it's like organizing my day a little bit differently was definitely something that helped. And then planning out my day as well. I gave myself 15 minutes every morning to, you know, make a list of what I felt I could accomplish that day, you know, versus what needed to be done.Just breaking it apart a little bit and putting in that time to organize yourself every morning, really, definitely was helpful. I'm a big list person now as well. I have a calendar, but then I also have an agenda. I have to have both because I know I need to be able to see both. And I think it maybe just took also a level of maturity and me growing up, to be honest with myself and with other people about how I work and working with people that understood that was nice.Eleni: Scottie mentioned another great thing we've heard from a lot of guests on the show. It's important when working with others to set clear expectations and ask for help when you need it. Dina advocates for herself while also taking into account the working styles of her coworkers and how they mesh with her own. It's about opening up a conversation to truly work best together.Dina: Advocating for yourself in a way where you are honest about what you need, but without putting your issues as front and center. So, what do I mean by that? I have ADHD, right? And that means that I need to do things a little bit differently. But if I spend all my time explaining to everybody else, I have ADHD and these are all the reasons why I need to do this stuff. I'm actually neglecting the part of the conversation where someone else who may be neurotypical or who may be neuro spicy to just simply explain to me what they need to make their lives easier.Eleni: Clare Otter, a disability advocate with ADHD, shares that accommodations are not special privileges, they're legal entitlements. Ask for help. It's not a bad thing.Clare: You are entitled to reasonable accommodation. You're entitled to supports in the workplace to accommodate your disability or your learning and thinking difference. Having that confidence, knowing that that's true, believing that that's true. I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm asking for what I'm owed, what I'm due. And then I think the other thing is really preparing, doing some research.A resource that I use all the time is askjan.org, which is a government-run website that is a pretty exhaustive resource of supports and accommodations that are broken down by kind of area of need. So OK, I struggle with executive function. What are the types of things that have been helpful for that. Understood.org too has lots of great resources that can help you sort of think about things that might work for you.Eleni: Though I'm really sad the show is ending, I'm so grateful that we've learned so much together. It's been amazing hearing all of the diverse voices that have been on the show. I really appreciate how everyone has been so open with me and vulnerable enough to share their stories. As a user researcher in my day job, I interview a lot of people and it's very rare that we're given the opportunity to share these interviews in a more public setting. I'm so glad I was given this platform to present other stories and that all of you, our listeners, were able to join in.We set out to discover whether people were truly thriving, not in spite of their difference, but because of it. And this was definitely true for a lot of our guests. For many who came on the show, it was the first time they thought about the questions I asked. My favorite part was seeing our guests take the time to self-reflect and think about how some of their choices, their differences, and their strengths led them to the careers that they're in today. This show has truly been a blast, and I'm so glad that you all came along for the ride. Thank you so much for listening.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learned and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Mathis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thank you for listening.
Play to Your Child’s Strengths, Says Ben Foss, Author With Dyslexia
Ben Foss is a dyslexia advocate and the founder of Headstrong Nation, an organization dedicated to empowering adults with dyslexia. He also has dyslexia and led the technology team that created the Intel Reader, a device that takes photos of text and reads it aloud.In 2013, Ben wrote The Dyslexia Empowerment Plan, a guide for parents to renew their children’s confidence and love of learning. Recently, we caught up with Ben to talk about his book and what he’s been up to.You wrote The Dyslexia Empowerment Plan to help parents. Do you think you succeeded?Ben: Yes, I believe the book has helped parents learn to be present with their children and love them for their strengths.One mom told me that reading the book changed her life (and her son’s). She’d been punishing her son for not succeeding at school. She expected him to learn the way all the other kids were learning. But he consistently failed to get his homework done. While he was at school one day, she and her husband locked all of his toys in the basement. He could have them back when he got his grades up, they lectured.After reading my book, this mom realized that she hadn’t given her son the supports and accommodations he needed in school. She said she and her husband realized they were contributing to the shaming of their son. So she unlocked the door to the basement and brought the toys back out.She then began asking her son how she could help him make school better by focusing on what he was good at and how to make that part of his learning.What do you think is the most valuable piece of advice in the book?Ben: Play to your child’s strengths!Everyone is good at some things and not so good at other things. The book has a step-by-step approach to find your child’s strengths and build them into their learning experience. Once kids know they have strengths, they can start owning their dyslexia and being comfortable talking about what they’re good at and what they’re not good at.Ultimately, this turns into self-advocacy and kids being able to tell their own story on their own terms. This leads to resilience and lifelong learning.It all comes back to strengths. Figuring out if your child is exceptionally good at music, athletics, being social or even playing Minecraft (can anyone say future architect!) can greatly improve their future.What have you learned since you wrote the book?Ben: Question everything all the time.Here’s an example. I often do talks at schools, as well as with entrepreneurs about finding strengths. (For a taste, take a look at my TEDx and Decoding Dyslexia talks.)In the past, after my talks, I typically did a book signing, like every other author. I greatly enjoyed the talks, but I hated the book signings. During these signings, I sat at a desk with a large stack of books, while people stood over me and asked me to spell things out using longhand. If there is a way to torture a dyslexic, this is it!So I questioned how this was done. And I decided to do things differently. Now, when I do book signings, I give away chocolate. I stand and talk rather than sit. Most important, I ask people who come what they’re interested in. It’s fun!My advice: Go with strengths. Go with questioning.A Final Note From BenPeople have a hard time believing my dyslexia when they see only the final product of my written work. These days, I generally speak to a computer and use Dragon Naturally Speaking to have it transcribed, greatly increasing my speed and accuracy when writing. For my book, that material went through four rounds of edits, including structural, copy and proofing, further polishing the material.Below are the first paragraphs of my book written as I would write it in raw format. I put it here to let you see “behind the curtain.” Yes, I am dyslexic for life and proud. Consider this my native tongue.Ben’s “Native Tongue”some people thisn being successful means overcoming dyslexia. Nothing could be further from the truth, By many measures I have achieved success. I have worked in the white house. I ve got a combined JD/MBA from standorf university. I directed a research group at Intel. I started Headstrong Nation, a not for profi t dedicated to helping the dyslexic community. An now, in the ultimate irony I have written a book. I know that I have been able to accomplish my goals because eI have integrated dyslexia, not because I overcame it. It is is part of whi OI am. Just as I am a man and I from New Hampshire. Indeed I have found that my my greated strengths are directly tied to my most sever weakenesses. It is the process of of recognixing my weaknesses and strengths and connecting them in my life, that has made me successful. And more important happy.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.
In ItWhat does it mean to thrive?
What does it mean to thrive? And how can we help our kids become thrivers? What does it mean to thrive? And how can we help our kids become thrivers?In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra talk with Dr. Michele Borba — a parenting expert and former special education teacher — about her book Thrivers: Surprising Reasons Why Some Kids Struggle and Others Shine. Listen in to hear Michele’s definition of thriving, and the seven strengths that help kids thrive. You’ll learn practical, actionable ways to help kids develop those strengths at any age.Related resources8 ways to teach empathy to your childSelf-care for kids: 6 ways to self-regulateHow to help your child build self-control6 ways to improve your child’s self-esteem with extracurricular activitiesAnd check out Michele’s book: Thrivers: Surprising Reasons Why Some Kids Struggle and Others ShineEpisode transcriptAnnouncer: Discover all of Understood's podcasts, where we talk candidly about challenges with reading, writing, focus, and other learning differences. Our podcasts bring new voices and perspectives you won't hear anywhere else. Explore the highs and lows of raising kids with learning challenges. Learn about the surprising ways ADHD symptoms can surface in kids and adults. And hear stories from working professionals who learn and think differently. On the Understood Podcast Network, there's a podcast for everyone. Find your new favorite today at u.org/podcasts or wherever you find your podcasts.Amanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood.org. And I'm a parent to kids who learn differently. Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And this is "In It." Amanda: "In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. On this show, we talk to parents, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. We'll offer you perspectives, stories, and advice for and from people who have all types of learning differences. Gretchen: Today, we're talking about how to help our kids thrive. Amanda: What do we mean by thrive? Well, in a new book called "Thrivers," Dr. Michele Borba defines thriving kids as kids who are happy, healthy, and high-performing.Gretchen: Michele writes that kids who thrive have some combination of the following seven strengths: confidence, empathy, self-control, integrity, curiosity, perseverance, and optimism. And she emphasizes that all of these strengths can be taught to kids at any age. Amanda: The book isn't specifically about kids who learn differently. But Michele is a former classroom and special education teacher, as well as an educational consultant and parenting expert. And we know she has great insights on how all kids can thrive. Gretchen: We're so glad she's here to talk to us today. Michele, welcome to "In It." Michele: Oh, thank you. I've been so looking forward to this. Amanda: We're so excited to have you here. I was telling Gretchen how we met. That we met at a conference, in an elevator, and then you did this amazing keynote speech on how to raise good humans, right? And what I really liked about that is we all sort of ended up thriving together. At the end of that keynote speech, you had everybody get up and sing the theme song to "Cheers." Michele: I have to give you a footnote to that. The theme song from "Cheers" came from a 15-year-old. I'd asked her, "I understand you're depressed and you're struggling. Is there any bit of advice that I could give your principal or your teachers to help you?" And she says, "Well, there was this real lame show my mother watches on TV. It takes place in a bar, with Norm, Sam, and Rebecca." And I went, "Cheers?" She says, "Yeah." I said, "What do you like about the show?" She says, "It's the song. It's not the show." I said, "What's about the song?" She says, "It's what every kid needs: a place where everybody knows your name and everybody's glad you came."Amanda: I didn't know that part of the story. That's so great. Gretchen: That is such a great story. Michele, before we get into your research on helping kids thrive, we're wondering what made you write this book and, in particular, why now?Michele: Well, I have to tell you, Gretchen, this has been a 40-year writing process. I actually started studying resilience way back when, in my ed psych classes, when I was working on my doctorate. And every single year, more and more research kept coming up that we can create thrivers — that thrivers are made, not born. And then all of a sudden I began to see this stirring stat that was really concerning me that one in five American kids suffer from an anxiety disorder. By the way, it's now one in three, because the pandemic hit. So I started asking the kids, 100 kids I interviewed, and I learned, every one of them saying "It's because we're not being raised to be humans these days. It's all about the test score. And somebody better teach us the skills on how to get along, communicate, adapt to change." Every kid was confirming what the research says, and that's the need for the book. It came from kids. Amanda: And that's what I love about the book, actually, is so many of the things in the book come from kids themselves. We're hearing from them directly. In your book, you lay out seven strengths that we can help kids develop in order to thrive. Self-confidence, empathy, self-control, integrity, curiosity, perseverance, and optimism. Michele: Amanda, those seven strengths took forever. In fact, they were identified on my dining room table with Post-its. What I did was go through every piece of research on resilience and then try to figure out what's the commonality between that work, that work, that work, and which of those things are teachable? And then what I did with the Post-its is start stacking, until I got to the point where "Where's the highest stacks?" Those became the seven. OK, those are the most highly correlated traits of success. And guess what? Everybody breathe. You don't have to teach all seven. It's a rare parent and it's a rare adult or teacher that has all seven of those. You don't. But the more you have, the better. My big "aha" moment as the researcher was, oh my gosh — not only do you not need all seven, but if you just have one, like self-confidence, and then you build the next one, like self-regulation, guess what? They have an amplifier effect. What we've been doing is teaching in isolation. Teach them together and they quadruple the impact, and your child now has more of a foundation to thrive.Amanda: I will admit that, you know, as I read through that list, my heart kind of sunk a bit because raising kids with learning differences, some of these skills are really hard, especially self-confidence. And I was wondering, do you have advice on how to tackle self-confidence for kids who really struggle in the classroom or socially?Michele: What we've been doing I think is too much emphasis on the deficit and the weakness and not enough emphasis on what the kid is naturally good at. If we start by nurturing the natural nature of the kid or what he loves to do, and then pass that on to Grandma, the teacher, the daycare worker, it helps the child realize that, no matter whatever comes his way, he's got something to help him stand up on his own two feet for. Maybe all of us need to take a 3-by-5 card and walk around the house without the kids knowing we're watching, or in the classroom without the kids knowing we're watching. And when you notice that your child is a little more eager and engaged — there's a need for whatever it is. When the soccer camp stopped, you can see almost depression: "Now what am I going to do, Mom?" There's a real eagerness about it. That's a strength. We do know that hobbies actually help kids thrive. They're highly correlated to resilience. And so I asked a number of kids, you know, prior to the pandemic, "What do you like to do for your hobbies?" And looked at me dumbfounded. What the heck is a hobby? Maybe we look at it and we carve in first in our children's schedule a little bit of the natural downtime. Not what you love but what your child loves to do. Is it reading? Is it music? Is it woodworking? If the child doesn't have a hobby, this is when you get Grandma to come in and start helping a kid learn baking, or Great Aunt Sally to teach knitting, and then watch what your child seems to enjoy. What we've discovered is that they take those hobbies with them the rest of their lives. I'm still knitting because of my aunt. The pandemic hit, what did I grab? My knitting needles. Because I knew that that's what I go to to help me just handle the stress a little more. That's the secret to beginning to help your child learn self-confidence. Amanda: You know what I love about that is the concept that you talk about what they love and not what they're good at, right. And a hobby starts with what you love, instead of starting with what you're good at. Knitting is such a good example. I love it. I'm so bad at it, but it's still a stress reliever for me.Michele: Yeah. Gretchen: You know, with families of kids who learn differently, like let's say that the family is really worried about a kid's reading disability, for example. What do you say to families then about, "But it's just as important to not just focus on this thing you want your child to get better at because it's school-related, but other things, these other hobbies.” You know? There might be a kind of push and pull there when it comes to things like that. Michele: I think the big thing that we've done is make everything into an either/or. It's not you do the hobby or you do the, should I help my kid with reading. Of course you help your child who is struggling in a particular area. I'm not saying stop helping him. But give him also a foundation to lift him up and realize he's got some real skills and some real assets.Amanda: You know, one skill that you write about that I love? And you know this about me and Gretchen knows this about me, is empathy. I love empathy so much that I wrote a book on it. And part of what interests me about it is the way that people think about it: You either have it or you don't. And they also think that empathy looks a certain way. But as parents and teachers of neurodiverse kids, we know that's not the case, right? Michele: Oh, Amanda, thank you for that. When you ask me, can I talk about empathy? Well, how many weeks do you have? Because I'm so passionate about it. First is, when I talk to parents, I can see one thing that we've done wrong. All I have to say is "Empathy. Our kids are hardwired for it, but unless you cultivate it, it lies dormant." And there's this "Whoa, I didn't know you can cultivate it." So I think the first thing is we got a lot more power as parents and teachers than we realized. But the second thing is, please don't assume that your child doesn't have it if he watches the movie "Bambi" and isn't a basket case. That's the affective kind of empathy, and some children do. They show it. They come running in because their friend's upset and their whole face radiates with sadness. But the other child is more serious. The other child who doesn't show the tears. Don't misjudge the child. The first one is the A-kind kid. That's the affective kind. That other kind is the C-kind of kid. He's the cognitive kind. Thank gosh there's that kind of kid, because Harvard says actually that's the most employable child we have. That's the kid who can step into the shoes of somebody and go, "How would I feel if that happened to me?" They're a little quieter because they're trying to understand where the person is coming from. Boy, we don't do that too well these days, do we know? Amanda: No. I think I may have told Gretchen this story, but I'll tell it to you as well. I have two sons who are autistic, and they use that phrase. One of whom is now in his second year of college and this feeling of, like, empathy doesn't exist in autism. It makes him absolutely — it throws them over the edge. And then one day I get this text from him. I'm in the middle of a meeting at work, and I get this text from my son and he says, "You need to read this paper. It's all about the difference between affective and cognitive empathy. And I think I'm a cognitive empathy person." And I was just like, "That's a kid who I taught about empathy, and then went and started looking up 'empathy' and realized he could see himself in it."Michele: That's exactly it. I taught autistic children for a very long time myself. They changed my whole perspective and dynamic, but so many misconceptions we have of children.And too often, what we try to do is also do the cookie cutter approach: "It worked for that kid." Figure out what works for your child.Amanda: It's so interesting to me to think through the difference between high-performing and thriving, right? I mean, or, or the connection, I guess. And for me it really hit home. I have a 25-year-old daughter, um, which makes me feel old when I say that out loud. I have a 25-year-old daughter who has significant anxiety disorder. And she talks about this herself. She has a bachelor's degree in multimedia visual arts. And yet for her, thriving is, she's found a great job at a local grocery store; she has roommates that she really adores; she can pay her bills. She's doing what she loves. For me, that took some readjusting as a parent, right, to let her figure out what thriving looked like for her. And I wonder, what do you tell parents when they're like, "But this isn't thriving."Michele: The simplest thing is look at your footwork. Where are you in relationship to your kids? If you're always in front of your kid and pulling your child in the direction and doing for your child then, OK, good, admit it. Then the next thing is step back, and start doing side by side with your child until, pretty soon, your optimum thing is step, step, step, so you're, you are ultimately behind your child and your child is pulling you. Oh my gosh. How great is that? Because that meant your child is figuring out from the inside out who he is, what he needs. That's going to be a long-time journey. But we've overlooked that as a learning tool. When we look at mental well-being, we're looking at a dismal rate of our children's well-being. Yeah, we've rated the smartest generation, but they're also the least creative, the most risk-averse, the least likely to be happy, and they're more anxious than any other generation. You put all those together and you go, "What are we doing? Maybe we need to reset in terms of our parenting," and start thinking, "What are we going to do to help our kids become the best they can be?"Gretchen: So there's another strength you write about in your book: perseverance. In my experience in the classroom, I've noticed that kids with learning differences often work hard naturally because they have to, and so perseverance is something they're pretty good at already. Have you seen that in your work? Michele: Yes. As a former special ed teacher? Yes, yes, yes. And then the parent would come in, and too often, "Well, how do I get him better?" And I said, "You're missing out on something here. Watch what he's doing right now. Watch how hard he's working." One of the highest correlations of children who thrive is they have a sense of agency. Agency means "I got it. I can do it." And when they start measuring themselves based on, "Well, if I just work a little harder, cause here's where I am, but if I just put in the effort in it, I'll get better and better and better." That's the greatest confidence booster there is, because they realize it's not IQ or GPA or a zip code that makes the difference. If they themselves and how much they apply.That chapter on perseverance, chapter six, is so critical because, you know and I know that the majority of research says that too often we parents do a huge, huge disservice. We emphasize the end product. We ask the "What'd you get? What was your grade? What was your score?" In fact, the first thing, when they come in, "How'd you do, what'd you get?" as opposed to "What kind of thing did you do? What brought you joy? What was the most fun part? What invigorated you? What did you learn differently?" We don't ask those questions. And what the kids are saying is, "That's what you're looking for; all you care about is the GPA." Harvard — Harvard! — interviewed dozens of middle school and high school kids, and they asked that question. "What matters most, the GPA? That you're healthy and happy? That you're caring?" Eighty percent of American kids said, "It's the GPA that matters most in my house."What went down to the dump hole? Twenty percent of the kids said kindness and caring. So they turned to the parents and they said, "Is this true?" And the parents went, "No! I want him to be kind and caring." But our messages aren't getting through. What the kid is hearing is "What'd you get?" as opposed to "What kind thing did you try?" or "What brought you joy?" Amanda: I love that question, "What brought you joy?" I just, I love that as a question. It's what I'm going to start incorporating into my daily routine with my 11-year-old.Michele: Well, Amanda, ask it to yourself too. We're all burnt out. We're doing it ourselves, and then we're trying to raise up the kids when our kids are mirroring our stress?Gretchen: Yeah, I think that's one thing Amanda and I wanted to ask you about too. What do we do about parents, right? The families are stressed. Maybe if we as parents realized the joy that might come from focusing on a hobby, right? Then maybe we would understand and pass that on to our kids. So, I’m just looking for some advice you might have for families.Michele: My advice is, number one, breathe a minute. Because the one commonality we have: every parent wants the best for their child. Every parent wants a happy, healthy kid. Everybody take a moment and breathe, cause the first step is once a parent realizes you can make a difference on your child's ability to thrive, first you go "I didn't know that." So maybe it's reading the back of "Thrivers" or doing a, starting a book club. Maybe it's just getting a fun — uh, Montreal has what's called parlor groups that I would say, boy, this is the way to go. I was doing an in-service and all the parents walked in, and it was kind of different because they all looked like they loved each other. They were bonded with each other. I've never seen a happier group of parents. I went, "Whoa, what the heck are you doing up in Montreal?" He said, "We started parlor groups. We start them in kindergarten." I said, "What's a parlor group?" "Well, the moment your kid goes into a class, they put you in a parlor group of about eight parents. You have to have at least one kid who's about the same age. And then you decide you're going to meet once a month and you're going to have coffee. The counselor comes to the first meeting, and they give you the rules on how you talk, so what stays in the group, you know, stays in the group, and no judging. And then we started talking about parents and what we need. And then we started doing book clubs, and then we started taking out newspaper articles about things we were worried about. And pretty soon, we were no longer doing coffee. We're doing wine and cheese, and we were really bonding and liking each other. We were no longer lonely. We realized that we could support each other. It changed our whole dynamics." That's the best thing I've ever seen. Amanda: You know, what's so powerful about that, too, is that there are parents out there who feel like they're different, right? They feel like they're different. They feel like they're outside of the group, and just inviting them in makes them feel like they thrive.Michele: Oh, Amanda, inviting them in — being invitational to another mom, another dad. We're all lonely. Then we've gone through two years of the loneliness epidemic. We've got to stop shaming each other. We've got to stop judging each other, and we've got to start inviting each other. And when we do, we're not only helping ourselves, cause we're going to be happier. All of a sudden we can start raising our kids together, and the whole dynamics change, because unless we start thriving ourselves, we're never going to be able to help our kids.Amanda: Michele, I could talk to you forever. Thank you so much for your time today. Gretchen: Yes, thank you so much.Michele: Thank you. Just having this conversation just keeps me going because we have a lot of work to do, but now we know we can do it. Gretchen: Michele Borba's book is called "Thrivers: The Surprising Reasons Why Some Kids Struggle and Others Shine."Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. Gretchen: Share it with the parents you know.Amanda: Share with somebody else who might have a child who needs to learn some of these seven strengths.Gretchen: Or send the link to your child's teacher.Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need.Gretchen: Go to u.org/init to find resources from every episode.Amanda: That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash in it. And please share your thoughts. Email us at init@understood.org. We'd really love to hear from you.Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are production directors. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.
5 steps for recognizing strengths in kids
All kids have strengths and challenges. It’s natural to focus on things that aren’t going well for your child and on skills that need improving. But it’s just as important to see your child’s strengths.Knowing those strengths helps you build your child’s self-awareness and self-esteem. You can also use those strengths to work on challenging areas in ways that aren’t as frustrating. Following these steps can help you recognize your child’s strengths.Consider different types of strengths.Strengths can be large or small, visible or hidden. Use this checklist to help identify your child’s strong spots.Follow your child’s interests.Sometimes strengths come out as your child explores interests. Learn about ways to help your child pursue passions and discover new strengths. Keep in mind that exploring strengths can take some trial and error. Your child might not be good at something right away, and that’s OK. Having a “growth mindset” can help your child keep that in perspective.Help your child identify strengths.Try making a “strengths chain” with your child. It’s a cool activity that lets your child see strengths in a tangible way. Your child can also make an “accomplishments box.” It’s a fun way for kids to see what they’re doing well.Talk about strengths.Keeping an open and honest dialogue about strengths (and challenges) can help both you and your child see and appreciate abilities. Get tips for talking with your child.Take note of your child’s strengths and successes.Watch your child in action and take notes on the successes (big and small) you notice and the strengths that helped your child succeed. (It helps to observe challenges, too.) It’s a good way to be able to say, “Here’s what I saw. I think you did that really well.”
In ItParenting while anxious
Being an anxious kid has its challenges. But what happens when that anxious kid grows up to be a parent? Being an anxious kid has its challenges. But what happens when that anxious kid grows up to be a parent? In this episode of In It, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra have a candid conversation with Morra Aarons-Mele, author and host of The Anxious Achiever podcast. Morra describes herself as an “extremely anxious introvert.” And she often wonders how that anxiety affects her parenting. Hear Morra describe her own strengths and challenges — as an anxious kid, a neurodivergent adult, and a mom.Related resourcesAnxiety in people who learn and think differentlyThe difference between typical anxiety and an anxiety problemAnd check out Morra’s book: Hiding in the Bathroom: How to Get Out There When You’d Rather Stay HomeEpisode transcriptAmanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood.org, and I’m also a parent to kids who learn differently.Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And this is "In It."Amanda: "In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. On this show, we talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. We offer perspective, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences.Gretchen: Today, we're talking about being a neurodivergent parent and parenting neurodiverse kids. Amanda: And our guest for this episode is someone I have known and admired for a really long time. Fellow blogger, fellow podcast host, fellow introvert Morra Aarons-Mele. Gretchen: Morra is an expert in online marketing, and she hosts a fabulous podcast called "The Anxious Achiever" for the Harvard Business Review.Amanda: Morra also wrote a book that is really near and dear to my introverted heart, "Hiding in the Bathroom: How to Get Out There When You'd Rather Stay Home." And it's an Amazon best-seller.Gretchen: Last but not least, Morra's married and is a mom to three kids between the ages of 6 and 12. Amanda: Morra has had her own challenges — as an anxious kid, as a neurodivergent adult, and as a mom — and, as you'll hear, she's someone who's not afraid to get in it real fast. So this conversation may be a little more focused on her journey than the kinds of conversations we've had before. Gretchen: Morra, welcome to the podcast. Morra: Hello!Gretchen: So happy to have you. And I know we gave a little bit of an introduction, but can you start by just telling us a little bit more about what you do in your professional life?Morra: Sure. I feel like I have a really amazing job. I have actually two jobs. By day, I am a digital communications executive. I actually just sold my business, Women Online, which was a digital consulting firm, to a public relations firm called Geben Communication. And there I act as EVP of social impact and I get to work with lots of amazing nonprofit world-changing clients and create digital communications programs. And then I, as you mentioned, am, geez, I've been a blogger since 2004 or 5. I write books and I have my podcasts. So I get to talk to really smart, interesting people about all matters mental health and leadership. Amanda: And I know you've described yourself as sort of an extremely anxious introvert, which I totally relate to. Can you tell us a little bit more about what makes you different in terms of how you think and exist in the world? Morra: Yeah, so, I am introverted, but more than that, I am pretty socially anxious and I have pretty intense clinical anxiety that manifests in many different ways. And I got my diagnosis when I was 19, and I'm 45. I also have major depressive disorder. So, I can alternate between periods of high anxiety where, ironically, I'm super productive and kind of, like, go-go-go. It's not manic, but it's also not far from manic in its look and feel. And then every couple of years, it seems, I will get hit with a pretty strong depression. And that's way worse for me to deal with, frankly, than the anxiety. The anxiety is with me a lot but mostly manageable, but I find depression, even after all these years, just really awful. Amanda: That is really relatable to me. Gretchen: I'm wondering, um, how does all this show up in your day-to-day life? Maybe give us a hint of what it was like when you were a student and then now, as an adult.Morra: Oh, it's tons of fun. Um, you know, I was always a very anxious kid. When I was 3, I had such bad agoraphobia that I wouldn't leave the house. You know, I was always a pretty highly strung, anxious, temperamental, intense child, apparently. And then by the time I got to college, a string of events in my sophomore year set off a really, really bad season of my life, where I had really intense panic attacks and clinical anxiety, and then also severe depression. So, I would say that I sort of learned to cope. You know, anxiety is really comfortable for me. I don't know if any of you out there can relate to it. Like, in our society, when you're anxious but you can also channel it into your work, you get rewarded, right? It's kind of unfortunate, but it's the truth.That's why my show is called "The Anxious Achiever," because so many of us have become socially conditioned to sort of throw our anxiety into our work. And it works until at some point it doesn't, and then we really have to change things. So I would say that my pattern has been sort of when I'm in a highly anxious phase, I think it's really difficult to be around me probably.And my experience of life is very hard, but I'm also very productive and outwardly quite successful. Amanda: And that's hard in its own right. It's hard to be anxious and productive because sometimes people don't believe you can be both at the same time.Morra: A hundred percent. And I have OCD, as well, although it's less. But I think that OCD and anxiety — again, not a scientist, not licensed to say this — but my totally layperson's opinion is that very anxious people who are perfectionistic can really get a lot of OCD symptoms, uh, that are not about washing your hands a hundred times necessarily, but are about driving to completion something that may not need to be, and also intrusive thoughts that can really power you forward. And so I find those really difficult as well. Amanda: Totally. Does that affect how you parent?Morra: Oh, of course. Right? And it's only as my children are getting older and we as a family are doing a lot of exploring and therapy that I'm realizing that my anxiety totally affects how I parent, and it affects how my children live in the world. I'm really trying to work on that right now, because I think it's one thing for me to try to deal with all of my anxieties and intrusive thoughts and fears, but I don't want to infect my kids. And I'm really trying to work on boundaries while also, of course, modeling to them that feelings are normal and it's OK that Mommy gets sad sometimes and blah, blah, blah. But, like, I want to protect them from my fears in a very strong way.Amanda: Our household, you know, I think I mentioned this to you, Morra, at one point, that it's like neurons gone wild in our house. We have, we, you know, I have anxiety and OCD and sensory processing issues. My husband has ADHD. My kids have learning and thinking things, are neurodiverse. Do you have a household like that too?Morra: I do. I don't want to go into too much detail because I think I'm not as far along in my journey, maybe, as you are, Amanda, but, yes, my house is definitely neurons gone wild. Um, and the funny thing is it's all we know. Gretchen: Right. I'm wondering then, you know, you have three kids, and that seems like a challenge enough. What is, like, a day in the life, or, like, what are some of the typical challenges that you might encounter in your household because of all that's going on?Morra: You know, I think also the thing that I've realized and the pandemic helped me realize that I'm going to throw in as a layer is that, um, my kids have two very career-driven parents.You know, we try to be really great parents, but we are very, very career focused. And before the pandemic, we traveled a ton, you know; we've had long periods where we both worked for ourselves, which adds its own pressure. So, there's that. I would say that what has been super interesting over the pandemic is that one of my kids has had pretty severe mental health issues of his own, anxiety and depression.And so that has been a huge wakeup call for me as a parent, really trying to be super conscious about my own actions and how I parent, as someone who struggles with this. I also have a kid who has an ADHD diagnosis. He's been diagnosed now for five years. And so, you know, when you have a child who has that sort of diagnosis, you learn to work with it as well. So every day in our house is an evolving circus. I'm trying to keep everybody calm, and that includes Mom and Dad. Amanda: I'm going to tell you something really personal that, you know, when my husband and I first started thinking about having kids, we worried about how our own differences were going to play into how we parented, whether or not our kids would be a little bit, you know, at the time we were calling them "quirky and complex," kind of, right? Do you mind answering whether or not that's something that went on in your mind, too, when you first started parenting? Morra: OK. Well, I'm going to tell you something super personal. When I first got pregnant with my first son, I had the worst depression I've ever had in my life. So, I think we're all pretty familiar with postpartum. This was prepartum. So, it hit me so bad in my first trimester that, like, it was like, uh, the world's coming to a halt in our family because this is a crisis. And thank God I got help. And I would say by the mid-second trimester I was in really good shape again, you know, emotionally and sort of, like, worked my way out of it.And then when I met my first son, this miracle happened, like I fell in love with him. But the fear of what I had experienced being pregnant with him, I don't know if that's ever gone away, you know, and that experience colored everything. And I worried because my mental health challenges were so strong with that first pregnancy. Would that be epigenetic, like, would that be genetic with all my subsequent children? I've been under a psychiatrist's care. It's been a process now. I love being a mom more than anything else. And I wouldn't, I mean, I had three kids by choice. Like, it's not, it's not even an issue for me, but there is always that layer of, you know, did I make my kids this way? Am I shaping them? How is this affecting them? And I don't know that that — I don't know, is that ever going to leave me? I don't know. And then when my son got his diagnosis, you know, again, it was this moment of, oh my God. Right? We sort of knew that things were needing addressing with him, because he had had a lot of issues in school, but when we got the ADHD and anxiety disorder diagnosis, I definitely had a moment of real questioning in myself.Gretchen: Well, can you tell us a little bit about the son that you fell in love with, your oldest? What is he like now? What's going on? Morra: So here's the thing, right? So I'm going to brag, OK?Gretchen: Please, yes, please.Morra: He had really wonderful early intervention. So he got diagnosed when he was 8. And being a mom with mental health issues who had been extremely therapized my whole life,I was like, let's do this, you know? I mean, there was no group we didn't go to. I went for it and I'm so glad I did, because I joke that, like, putting a kid, basically, in some form of therapy, five days a week, since they're 8 years old, can really make a kid self-actualized. My son is independent. He has incredible empathy. He has incredible social skills. There was a back-to-school picnic last week. And there was supposed to be a parent on-site for each kid — to supervise. But my son was like, "Nope, I'm going by myself, Mom, I got this." He came home. He ordered a pizza. He had it delivered. He paid for it. He took our little cute dog to the picnic 'cause it was outside and he knew that a dog is the best way to meet new people. Like what's better than like, "Oh my God, I love your dog." Right? So he rocks out carrying the pizza and the dog and his little picnic blanket and walks to school and walks to the picnic. And that was it. And I can't even tell you, like, I had this moment where it was, like, my kid is amazing. He's self-sufficient, he's independent, he's solving problems, and he understands, like, how to talk to people in this giant school. Um, I'm going to cry. So it's been such a bumpy road, but I really believe in the power of great adults. And my son has had the best support teams. I mean, I am so lucky. I think he's going to do great things. Amanda: You know, one of the things that I hear in that story — first of all, as a former early intervention specialist, woo-hoo, yes — go, intervention, for the win! Also, I think one of the things I'm hearing there is that you understanding him, right, because of your own differences and lens on the world, interacts with him in a way, too. Do you think that you have a better understanding — or maybe not a better understanding — of how to parent this child, this wonderful, amazing picnic-going child that you have?Morra: Well, I mean, I think that one of the amazing things about parenting is that you learn to understand and parent your kids differently, right? Each kid is so different. I think the thing about my son is that we kind of swap skills, because I'm a big believer in cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to manage my day and my OCD and all of my issues. I don't have ADHD, but when I'm in a really anxious phase, I get really distracted, and it's really hard to pay attention. I don't know if any listeners out there can relate to that feeling of being super anxious and sitting in front of your computer and, like, your heart is racing and you can't sit still. And like you're not getting anything done, right? Because your mind is an F1 engine. So, sometimes I'm like a person with ADHD, and I need to break things down and schedule and plan and use techniques and breathe and use mindfulness. And so, like, I'm on that journey too. And my son teaches me a ton of things.Gretchen: Well, Morra, you've brought up things that have affected your life, you know, and are different. So, I'm wondering as a parent then, do you think that makes you better? Does it make you more empathetic? Does it give you more tools? Like, what do you think? Morra: I, you know, it's, like, I hesitate to call myself a better parent because every day the other shoe could drop, with three kids, but I definitely think that our children, they're nice. They're empathetic. And we work really hard at trying to stop and take other people's perspectives in our family. And I think that that's probably because we all have a lot of feelings that we can just dive straight into. I call it a feelings tunnel, when you're so flooded by your own feelings it's really hard to step back.This is one of my worst character traits is that, like, I get flooded and I lose perspective. And so I think that, like, we, as a family really work on that. And I have to say that as a result, I think my kids are, like, nice and empathetic in a way, they open to the world. And I'm proud of that. Even if the reason we do it is because it can be a struggle sometimes.Gretchen: And it sounds like your kids have impacted you, right? And perhaps have made you better in some ways. Morra: Oh, yeah. And especially my two older ones, you know, they check me. Sort of, like, the, "Not now, Mom. OK, Mom, I've got this. It's going to be OK, Mom." One of them broke their wrist biking this summer and I, like, oh God, that was really hard for me. And my husband was great too. He was, like, "They're boys. It happens. It's going to be OK." Like, you cannot lock them up forever and not let them leave the house, because of course that's what I wanted to do. So they definitely can be like, "No, Mom, this is what I need to do."Amanda: That's amazing. It's also interesting what I hear you describing is, it's like the inside things that you do, the flooding and talking about the emotions, you're doing them outside, right? With your family. You're, you're doing it out loud. And I wonder if more parents need to be doing that. Morra: The flip side is you shouldn't be doing that, right? Because you're putting too much on children, who don't need to carry your crap. Amanda: That's fair. Morra: Sometimes. Absolutely. I mean, I will say, and, you know, in full disclosure, I've had therapists very kindly suggest to me, "You have one kid who's extremely empathetic, as you are. He's sort of an emotional sponge. Maybe, like, try to not emit so many emotions." So, I don't know how I feel about that one. Amanda: That's fair. And I appreciate you saying that out loud. You know, we started this whole conversation, talking about anxiety. We went in all these different directions, Morra. And I'm wondering if there's something that we didn't ask you that you wanted us to ask you. Morra: Wow. This is going to sound corny, but it's something I've been thinking about. I'm 45. And while not from a generation where people with learning differences were sort of shamed or punished, from definitely a different generation than now.And my mom actually tested for IEPs. So, I was immersed. I knew what an IEP was when I was 6. But I learned from the public school system and the amazing educators that, like, there is not shame about this. Kids are so open about their IEPs and their ADHD and their anxiety. I feel like adults need to learn from kids.When we struggle with our own feelings of either getting our child's diagnosis, that makes us uncomfortable, realizing that we are ourselves neurodiverse and having bad feelings. I mean, when I see kids who I know really well from, you know, having been in the system for so many years, they like themselves. They're cool. They integrate with everyone else in school like it's not a big deal. Amanda: Morra, thank you so much for sharing such personal stories with us today. I really appreciate it. Gretchen: Thank you so much for being with us. Morra: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network. Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it.Gretchen: Share it with the parents you know. Amanda: Share it with somebody else who might have a child who learns differently.Gretchen: Or just send a link to your child's teacher. Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need.Gretchen: Go to u.org/init and find resources from every episode.Amanda: That's the letter U as in Understood, dot O R G, slash in it. And please, share your thoughts. Email us at init@understood.org. We'd love to hear from you.Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.
Video: College students on embracing strengths and differences
College is a perfect time for young adults with learning and thinking differences to discover their strengths and learn how to thrive in school and in life. Watch as students from Landmark College, a school for people who learn differently, talk about how the college experience has helped them unlock their potential.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!Dyslexia and creativity make this artist pop
Kristjana Williams is a London-based Icelandic artist with dyslexia. She wasn’t diagnosed until she was 25, and now she has her own studio. Kristjana Williams is a London-based Icelandic artist with dyslexia. She wasn’t diagnosed until she was 25 and attending Central Saint Martins, an art school with many students who learn and think differently. Now, she’s a renowned collage artist with her own studio.Growing up in Iceland with undiagnosed dyslexia was frustrating for Kristjana. She would try so hard to accomplish her work, but she just couldn’t quite get it without the support that she needed. Today, she knows that her brain works differently, and she leans into her strengths. It’s why her work is so creative and comes together naturally. Listen to this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?! to hear more about how Kristjana’s dyslexia affects her memory, and how it led her to the collage art medium.Related resourcesUndiagnosed dyslexia, and low self-esteem: Becoming a fashion designer, another How’d You Get THAT Job?! episodeFAQs about bilingualism and dyslexiaKristjana’s studio and artEpisode transcriptKristjana: I remember telling my parents, and I remember my dad saying, "Oh, yeah, I always wondered why you couldn't spell your own name." And I was like, oof. I definitely just know that my brain works differently. And I think that it just allows me to put things together. It just happens magnetically. It's very natural.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Kristjana Williams is an Icelandic artist based in London. And she has dyslexia. She studied at Central Saint Martins College and Art School, where she found a lot of others who thought differently like her. She wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until she was 25 years old. Now she's part of the Dyslexic Design art collective and has been running her own studio since 2012. Hello. Welcome.Kristjana: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: Well, I thought a good place to start is your studio. So tell me about the studio. What do you all do there?Kristjana: We're a studio. Kristjana Williams Studio. At the very heart of it is the fine art. And like the creations, there's always, like, a few collections that I will make personally each year. And then another half that the studio is more commercial projects that are brand related, and they also have to work really well together because anybody who's buying the art needs to be happy with the people that I'm working with. So that's like the two main sides of it.And I work in collage, a lot of digital art. So kind of XR as well as the physical 3D pieces, as well as limited-edition prints. It's interesting actually, because we started kind of on the kitchen table and as you kind of grow, probably one of the hardest bits is to get somebody else in to work with you. So it kind of slowly grew from that, from the kitchen table into a studio. From two people to four people to six, and I think we're about 10 at the moment.Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about your chosen medium and perhaps like how you would describe your work?Kristjana: So my role is artist, creative director. So in the very beginning, I had some — because of the nature of my work, so much of it is about research and working with all the Victorian engravings. So you might have to find three older telescopes to be able to make a new instrument. Or often I would use different scientific material to kind of create buildings and architecture.And as a young person, I used to draw things in a really intense way. And when I was at Central Saint Martins, I did this internship with a woman that had this fashion label, and I started drawing patterns for her. And she was actually the one that introduced me to silkscreen printing and Victorian engravings. And the Victorian engravings were used a lot in the fashion industry in London, because you would just have to create these huge giant clips. If we're really quick turnaround for the next season, for the next season. I did like three or four seasons with her. And that just gave me the idea of working big and working on scale. And I was always very interested in kind of animation and the digital side of things.Eleni: When did you first start doing collage and what drew you to it? What do you like about it?Kristjana: As a kid was just constant drawing, painting, and all of it. So it's interesting. When I really look back, I can see that the work is — has that like thread in it. Even when I was doing like the linocutting and stuff and I started screen printing, which I really loved, but I was using the screens as a stamp, and again, like the complete thread in that.So the collage actually came much later. It's just kind of realizing how to work digitally, and that was through the fashion of having to have to create those big fabrics very quickly.Eleni: So you mentioned you have dyslexia. Is there any link between your attraction to collage and your artistic practice to the way that your brain works and your dyslexia?Kristjana: Being dyslexic in school in Iceland, of course, because I'm in that age group, we had no idea. It was just like what probably every other dyslexic experiences: that really frustrating, knowing that you can do it, but you still you can't quite get it out there. And some things you're good at mostly, like the variation in dyslexia being so vast. So I think definitely my memory was affected in a really specific way where, you know, you remember, but then you just — you can't get to your short-term memory quick enough.So I feel like when I finally went to Central Saint Martins, which wasn't until I was 25, at Central Saint Martins, they just immediately went right for you to get you tested. And I was like, oh. And I didn't think much about it, because you do learn how to navigate it. And I remember telling my parents. And I remember my dad saying, "Oh yeah. I always wondered why you couldn't spell your own name."And I was like, oof. Being so frustrated. But they just, yeah, I think I definitely just know that my brain works differently. And because of the way that I think, that it just allows me to put things together. It just happens magnetically. It's very natural.Eleni: And you mentioned one of the challenges that you had when you were first working with the team was just being able to communicate what you were thinking over the years and like having a studio and working with a team. Like how have you learned to be able to communicate what's in your brain or externalize what's going on in your head?Kristjana: I think definitely when I look at the beginning, again, I just was just frustrated because something was so clear in my head, but I just couldn't communicate it easily. So that was definitely a journey, just a journey that you just by hammering, just doing it gets easier and just — but if you're around nice enough people that understand you and see what you can do, you can just, you just have to have faith in humanity.And I feel like with the girls in my studio now, they know me. They know now what I will remember, what I won't remember. And they know to remind me of certain things. And they know that I'm going to go to the airport without my passport, like for the 30th time. And they're just all kind of floating around and they can work together. And actually, as I'm getting older, I feel like I'm using, like — and I'm just getting more and more better at these things.Eleni: You kind of talked about when your team first came onboard, you talked to them about it. Did you mean that you talked to them specifically about having dyslexia and how that might impact your day to day? Or what did you mean when you said that?Kristjana: Not in the beginning. I think people definitely just experienced me as this person that would flip it around quite a lot. But now as I've got older and like my team were all more established, I feel like in the past four or five years, like I'm just always very vocal about it. I say, "I can't really hear. Would you say these letters out loud so I can picture them?" And like when people are talking to me really fast on the phone, like breaking down something that they're spelling, and I just always make a point of talking about it. Or it's just also with certain disruption in the studio. In fact, it took me a long time to learn that I could ask for that break.Eleni: Do you think that there are any ways that your dyslexia influences how you manage your team and manage your studio, like beyond just creating the work itself?Kristjana: I'd like to think so. It makes you have more kind of empathy with so many creative people with neurodiversity. You feel really comfortable around them. Also, like you realize when you look back with your friends that you automatically grow with people that are a little bit similar to you.Eleni: What would you say that you've learned about yourself or your dyslexia over the years? If you could go back and talk to your 20- or 30-year-old self, like what would you say?Kristjana: I think I'd mostly like to speak to my 10-year-old self. I'd just kind of give her a pat on the back to say, you know, you're not crazy. Because it was so confusing. I think when I was in my 20s, I think I just never associated dyslexia with how it affects your memory. So I still thought that was just me being me.And it was working with some dyslexic art exhibitions with Jim Rokos, my friend that was also in Central Saint Martins. Um, I completely forgot what I was going to say.Eleni: The funny thing is that you were talking about memory.Kristjana: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. OK. So. Yes. So with my memory is all of my thoughts. They're just like floating on the top of the ocean. And even though I just heard something, the likelihood that I'll be able to get it? Quite slim. And I'm just — I think I've lived with fear of just feeling quite stupid. It really makes you doubt yourself.And I think when I got diagnosed, it's actually like at 25, 26, because you know how hectic you are just in that time. And I was always this person that was doing 100 things at the same time. And yes, so I think I didn't actually start to read about that until my 40s. Looking back, I feel like I would have educated myself a bit about the diversity of dyslexia.Eleni: Does your dyslexia manifest differently across languages?Kristjana: No, it's interesting. Icelandic is quite literal, but it's still quite wordy. So expressing myself in English, I find that really easy. Icelandic is really similar, because in Icelandic it's just — it's still the letters. It's just, it's hearing them and just the hesitation with the writing, even though it's just fantastic on computers and spellcheck and I, you know, compose things really quickly now. Though I think it's quite similar.Eleni: I have heard that, yeah, but I just wondered what that experience was like for you. Do you want to give us an example of a project that you're working on right now, and perhaps a little bit of your artistic process in that?Kristjana: I have 20 projects going on at the moment. So the Victoria and Albert Museum is one of my favorite places in the world, and it's such a big contrast with Iceland and growing up there. So it's a bit like going to these old English places that are just like — you find you're so curious in that one. So I've been working with them since 2011.And I did this installation in the British Galleries where you could sit down in the sofa. And I'd do this really intricate like junker, like collages, and you could do your own collage. So we had four corners of that. That was really, really fun, to always feel very deep that everybody has that creativity inside of them, but we just kind of leave it at the door. And that's why collage is so amazing.Like I've done so many like live collage workshops or digital ones, and it's just always brilliant and so different what people come up with. And like when I did those four pieces, everybody was like, oh, do you really want to open up your work? Ot do you want everybody just to be able to go into your work and just — nobody wants to do what you do. Everybody wants to do their own thing. So I continue to work with them throughout the years and with about —.Eleni: Over a decade. It's pretty amazing.Kristjana: Yes, I did the — they did a huge exhibition about Alice in Wonderland: Curiouser and Curiouser. And I was commissioned to do the book for that. And we did a VR experience within the exhibition. So like working digitally and being able to kind of break everything part and doing the paper theaters was just amazing.Eleni: That's so exciting. Thank you, Kristjana, for joining me from London.Kristjana: Thanks for having me.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. The show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. We'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at u.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot org slash workplace.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to help people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Matthis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thank you for listening.
How to help your child build strengths from challenges
Many kids who learn and think differently face challenges every day. They may struggle with schoolwork or socially — or both. Dealing with hurdles and setbacks over and over again is frustrating. Kids may get upset about them. But facing challenges can also build important emotional strengths. These qualities last a lifetime and help kids cope with tough situations. Kids don’t always see these emotional strengths in themselves. You can help build your child’s self-esteem by pointing out these strengths when you notice them. Also, talk about why these qualities are so valuable.Here are four key strengths that can come from challenges.1. DeterminationSome people call it perseverance. Others call it grit. When things don’t come easily, some kids give up. But others keep at it. They don’t let challenges keep them from trying. Point out this strength: “Math was really tough this week, but you studied a lot and got extra help from the teacher. You set a goal and you stuck to it. I’m proud of you.”Explain why it matters: “Everybody faces challenges. But if people give up, they won’t have the chance to solve the problem. It’s great that you keep working to make things better.”2. EmpathyBeing a different kind of learner can help some kids be more thoughtful about other people’s differences and needs. But they may not recognize it as empathy. It’s just “how they are.”Point out this strength: “It’s great that you invited the new kid in class to sit at your lunch table. Not everyone would do that. But you thought about how it feels when people aren’t friendly.”Explain why it matters: “Being able to imagine what another person is feeling is a real skill. It can make you a better friend and classmate. It also lets you see when people need help.”3. CourageKids who face challenges are used to being out of their comfort zone. That can make them more willing to try new things or tackle tough problems, even if they might fail.Point out this strength: “When you tried out for the swim team, you didn’t know the coach or the other kids. You weren’t sure if you were fast enough. But you jumped in and did your best even though you were nervous.”Explain why it matters: “It’s scary to take risks. But being willing to try even when you don’t know how something will turn out is a strength. And it can lead to great things.”4. ConfidenceUnderstanding their weak spots can give kids power and a sense of control. It lets them speak up for themselves and ask for what they need, which builds confidence.Point out this strength: “I’m impressed by how you asked the teacher for study notes. You knew that would help you, and you explained why. You got what you needed, and it helped.”Explain why it matters: “I know it feels bad when you don’t understand the question in class. But asking for help can help you solve problems — and that’s so much better than giving up.”There are other ways you can help your child build these strengths. Explore activities your child can do to build a growth mindset and stay motivated.Discover the different types of strengths kids can have. And get tips to build resilience in your child.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!“Math dyslexia” can’t stop this chef and business owner
Raquel Fleetwood says cooking is her zen, peace, and love. It’s a place where her trouble with math and anxiety fade away, and learning is natural. By the time Raquel Fleetwood was diagnosed with a learning disability at age 8, she had already discovered her passion: cooking. By 16, inspired by her Black-Latina roots, she was selling cheese flans in NYC. Each gig that followed built her confidence more and more. Now, Raquel is the owner and chef of a catering company that delivers 75,000 meals in an average year. Listen to hear how Raquel turned her love of food into a career. Learn her secret for managing challenges with math, spoken language, and organization as an adult. And get her advice on how to make your strengths shine when you have learning differences.Listen in. Then:Watch a video of a chef with learning differences who went back to college.Take a quiz to find your career superstar.Read how a skateboarder with dyslexia started his business.Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.I absolutely love food. So I'm really excited for our next guest. Raquel Fleetwood is a chef and caterer in Los Angeles who draws culinary inspiration from her Black and Puerto Rican roots. In a typical year, her company delivers 75,000 catered meals a year. She has dyslexia and other learning differences. She also struggles with things like spoken language, math, and organization. So Raquel, welcome to the show.Raquel: Thanks for having me.Eleni: Of course. So, yeah, I'm really excited to talk about food, and I'm really looking forward to hearing how you made that your career. So tell us a little bit about your job.Raquel: I'm the owner and chef of Catered By Raquel in Long Beach, California. And I am a full-time mom.Eleni: Four kids and a business.Raquel: Four kids and a business.Eleni: So, you're a chef and a caterer. Have you always loved cooking? And what do you love about it?Raquel: I've always loved cooking. My mom worked a lot when I was growing up; she was back in school to get her PhD. And I grew up on the Upper West Side of New York with a mother that didn't cook. So she would always order in; everything was takeout, which is, I guess, good for some people, but I remember figuring out at a super early age that if I learned how to cook, I could make anything I wanted. So I remember being 4 and trying to work my way into my grandmother's kitchen. And she eventually got tired of kicking me out, and they gave me a stool so I could reach the counter.Eleni: How very New York of your mother to order takeout every day.Raquel: Oh my gosh. She's like, I'm the best chef ever. Here's my phone numbers. These are all the numbers.Eleni: Yeah. And when you snuck into the kitchen, was there anything in particular that you liked about being in the kitchen or that you liked cooking — any favorite meals?Raquel: I just, I've always been attracted to it. My mom has stories of when I was a kid; she would put on "Sesame Street" and she would come in and Julia Child would be on the TV. So I always referred to Julia Child as my Big Bird. Cooking is where I met my zen, my peace, my love. It's a place where my nervousness, my anxiety, it doesn't play a role anywhere. And you know, I have trouble with numbers and math. And math and numbers, when it comes to food, it always makes sense. I'm grateful to have honed in on my talent super young.Eleni: Yeah, super young, 3 or 4.Raquel: Super young. Yep. My whole life.Eleni: Yeah. So, Raquel, you grew up in New York City, and, you know, you were diagnosed with dyslexia when you were 8. Do you want to talk a little bit about what it was like going to school in New York? Talk a little bit about struggles in school and, you know, anything that you want to share about that.Raquel: Yeah. I grew up on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, 93rd between Central Park West and Columbus. I lived in the same building for 27 years. So, I remember vividly starting the process of being tested. And, you know, my mom's a psychologist, so I think things might've been a little bit easier for me than some, because she was super, sometimes overly understanding of the whole thing. And in school I always had one friend. I was never the popular one. I'm an only child. And I have four kids, which is kind of ironic. I was never the one to play first, and I'm still not. So I think that growing up, it translated into who I am now, where I only have a couple of, like, really close friends. I can't really deal with too many personalities at once. And I kind of flew under the radar at school.You know, I graduated high school. I did what I had to do. Bare-bones, bare minimum. I was supposed to go to culinary school and I didn't, because my mom said she didn't want me to go to culinary school because if I went and graduated and I decided I didn't want to cook, then I wouldn't have something to have like a backup as. So I actually went to school for early childhood development and failed miserably.I took a math class like four times. And then just left. I missed out on an associate's degree for one class, because I just, I couldn't do it anymore. And I've always had issues, like, if I'm not interested in something, I really don't care. It's real easy for me to just look at a sparkly thing in the room and go somewhere else. So, I think I figured out actually later in life that there was a connection between having a learning disability and still being confident. I know sometimes that's where it affects people, in their confidence. But I think through food, through cooking, it kept me confident.Eleni: You were able to find something that you were really good at and then gain your confidence through that rather than focusing on the things that maybe were a little bit more challenging in school.Raquel: Exactly.Eleni: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, it's so rare to hear that people find their passion at the age of 3 or 4. I barely have memories from that age, you know? And you know, it sounded like you were pretty clear about what you wanted to study but then kind of pivoted into this other direction. How did you eventually find your way back to the food industry?Raquel: It took a while. I had gotten a gig at, like, 16 in New York selling my cheese flans to a restaurant that I worked for.Eleni: What is a cheese flan?Raquel: It's a traditional Puerto Rican flan dish — tastes more like a hybrid between a flan and a cheesecake. So I was pumping out cheese flans out my mom's oven. Thought I was something.And then I went to college. Didn't graduate. Wound up being in retail for, like, 10 years. I was a retail manager. I didn't like it, per se, but I was good at it because the methodical folding and making sure the stuff is perfect and square and even, and all the visual displays, that was the best part. The people were just not my thing.And even to this day with the cooking, sometimes I'm like, "You know, I wish I could just cook for nobody." Because it's always the people aspect of it all that throws me off a little. But then I wound up meeting my husband. We had our first child, and I was approached about catering our — this was 10 years ago now — catering our Christmas party for our subdivision we lived in. And I was like, "OK." She was like, "It's 160 people," and I'm, you know, "Fake it till you make it. Sure, why not?" And came in there and made it all look really pretty, and the food tasted really good. And I was able to do that for a couple of years, and I also was getting jobs. The word was kind of getting out. So I had jobs here and there.And then when I moved to California, my husband worked for a company that catered their lunch every day. So they were like, "Oh, well, does your wife cater? And does she want to cater for us once a week?" And I was like, "Sure, why not?" So it was like a mad dash to cook for 200 people.Eleni: Wow.Raquel: Pregnant at the time, with two other kids and no childcare. So it was a lot of fun.Eleni: Wow. That sounds intense.Raquel: And then from there, they gave me the full program. So I was their corporate chef for three years, before the pandemic.Eleni: Wow. So when the neighbor approached you, you had never actually done catering before. They just knew you were a good cook and they asked you to do it.Raquel: I did it when my mom's friends and stuff would have parties; I would do it for them. And again, the artistic part of me, it was always really good at making stuff look pretty. And that, definitely, it helped tailor my craft.Eleni: Yeah.Raquel: So I had experience here and there, but it was never for anyone I didn't know.Eleni: It was a little bit more of a hobby.Raquel: Yes.Eleni: And then it evolved into something a little bit more serious.Raquel: I had worked in kitchens younger, as a teenager, but it was never my thing. I definitely have a tough skin and stuff, but the demand working, you know, 15, 16 hours straight, to then double — I just, it's not me.Eleni: Yeah.Raquel: So the catering was a really great way for me to be able to cook and still have a life, essentially.Eleni: Yeah. And it's important to have balance, especially when you have four kids.Raquel: And they're little — we've got a 9, 7, 4, and 1. So, yeah, it's exciting. I just need them to get older so they can help with the company. I'm like, "Come wash these dishes."Eleni: I'm sure they will be super cute doing it. That's great. So I personally definitely prefer to cook than bake, and a big part of it is I just cannot follow a recipe. Like, I always want to change it a little bit and mix it up.Raquel: Yeah, not with baking.Eleni: Yeah. So for me, cooking is a little bit more of a creative outlet. Is it similar for you?Raquel: Yeah, I think baking is definitely more of a science. We can mess it up, but it's not my forte, baking. I still do it. And I still mess around with the recipes. And that's the biggest thing with cooking. I always tell people, "Don't be afraid to make mistakes, because it can either come out absolutely disgusting or you could make something that you really like, so why not try, you know?"Eleni: Yeah. Do you think that in terms of baking and following a recipe, do you think any struggles with reading have anything to do with that at all?Raquel: No. And again, the only numbers that make sense to me and my head are food measurements. So cups, quarters, converting grams. That just — it's so easy. But if you ask me to, like, do a simple math problem, I had to hire tutors to do homework when my second and third grader, and they learn math all kinds of different now. So I, you know, it still plays a big role. And my sense of direction is terrible. I can't go to the corner store without my GPS. My husband makes fun of me all the time. But yeah, cooking and numbers, like, I'm able to convert the recipes in my head really quick. It makes sense. I can see it in my brain, and in my brain it makes sense. Whereas with other numbers and, you know, applying math to things, when I see it in my brain, it just, there's no translation to it. It's just numbers. I can't apply it to anything.Eleni: That's so interesting. So what kind of food do you like to cook, and what influences some of the cuisine that you serve or your recipes?Raquel: Yeah. Right now we do just about anything. So we're known for doing custom menus. So, recently we had a Filipino repast, and they wanted me to do all traditional Filipino food. And I think the best thing about being a chef in 2022 is that if you know food, you can figure out how to cook the recipe. And, you know, once I'm able to look at recipes, I can make sense of it and be like, that's too much salt, or that needs more, or that's not enough garlic. So, I'm able to do basically whatever the client wants. And I am a foodie myself, growing up on the Upper West Side, being of mixed race, you know, having that Upper West Side melting pot really helped develop my palate.Eleni: And that's so cool that you can just kind of look at recipes and then bring your own —Raquel: Yeah, I can taste stuff, too, and I can tell you what's in it. So if I taste something, for the most part I can replicate the recipe.Eleni: I love it. So you just mentioned being mixed race, and we talked about it a little bit in the introduction. Do you want to share a little bit about how your ethnic background has had an influence on your cooking and your career? And then also maybe how it's played a part in other parts of your identity? And even how your learning differences have been perceived.Raquel: I love the question. I was raised by my Puerto Rican side. So, even though I am half Black, I do identify as Latina, and I'm fluent in Spanish. It's like my thing. We got married in Puerto Rico.Eleni: Oh, lovely.Raquel: And I feel like I was able to discover my Black side through food. So, yeah, when I moved to Atlanta, like, really being able to discover my roots. Their food was, like, amazing. I gained, like, 35 pounds —Eleni: Worth it!Raquel: Because I was eating mac and cheese, all the yumminess, fried chicken. But definitely felt more in touch with my dad's side through food, and have memories. Every now and then, I would go to one of his family members' house for Thanksgiving and like smelling the collard greens. So, like, even to this day, the smell of collard greens reminds me of his side. So really identifying who I am through food. There's a, such a push on my part, I feel like, to be able to expose people to what Puerto Rican food is, which is a mixture between the African slaves that they brought over, the Spanish, and then the Natives, they're called Taíno Indians. So it's more African-forward than what a Mexican dish would be.Eleni: That's amazing.Raquel: Yeah.Eleni: So, given that you love the cooking aspects but not so much the customer-client side, do you think that you'll stay in catering? Or are you thinking about other ways to incorporate cooking into your life or another business?Raquel: We're thinking about it. It's not as easy as it was pre-pandemic. I think that the food costs are astronomical. The same brisket that cost me, like, $36 before the pandemic now cost me $100. So, the increase in food prices and people just not understanding. And they're, like, "Well, this is too expensive." And I'm like, "I can't make any money to be able to pay a storefront."And you know, it's not that I don't like the client. It's more that the confrontation or the idea of confrontation and having to work my way through it, which I'm actually really good at, even though inside I'm, like, screaming, it's the anticipation and the anxiety of having to deal with people. Because they're spending a lot of money and it's warranted, but I don't want to deal with it. So I think me and my husband were talking more about possibly going more toward the TV food side.Eleni: That's interesting.Raquel: Yeah. So we'll see.Eleni: Well, earlier in the conversation, you said that while you struggled at school, you were able to have cooking as something that you were able to focus on and really enjoy. You mentioned struggle with math but it doesn't really come up in terms of recipes and things. Are there any struggles that come up that are related to your differences at work?Raquel: With cooking? Oh yeah. The organization part of it. You're supposed to be super neat. And my brain was just firing. It's firing, and I want to do like a million things at once, so then I look around and, like, the kitchen's on the floor. So, like, I've hired people specifically to clean up after me because you know, my brain’s just like, ah, like, “I can't, I can't do it.” I tried. I've done well sometimes, but it's not fun. That's a bit of a struggle, the organization part of it. You know, sometimes, you know, the ability for me to organize my thoughts definitely comes through on the cooking side.Eleni: Yeah. How do you think that relates to your differences, or do you think it relates to your differences?Raquel: Oh, I totally think it does. I think now, you know, at 40 years old, I know myself, so it doesn't bother me. It used to bother me. My saying was "I get on my own nerves." But now I know to step back. And I also think that it's really important, if you have a learning disability or not, owning a business, to surround yourself with people that balance you out, that can take up for your weakness. So, I tell people, "I don't need a five-star chef. I just need somebody that's organized, that can clean, that doesn't mind doing dishes, all that stuff." I've been able to kind of balance myself out with my staff. And I tell them the organization on my end is shot, and I'll have to sit there with a pen and paper because even the phone gets annoying. And I write everything down so that I can see my list of things, because if I leave it up to my brain, it's going to jumble it all up and mess it up. But again, you know, I also think that being learning disabled, when you immerse yourself in a day-to-day activity that causes you to have those issues and figure it out, the more it happens, the less it bothers you, the less anxiety there is behind it. Because you know that you fixed it before, and you fix it every time, so this time shouldn't be any different.Eleni: And, you know, you've mentioned being a mother and having four kids. Are there any challenges that come up related to learning differences when you're parenting?Raquel: Sometimes my patience. That's why I had to hire a tutor for my second and third grader, because I couldn't do it. And then my oldest daughter, who's 9, just got diagnosed with dyslexia.Eleni: Oh, wow.Raquel: So we have her in a special program to get her caught up. And I do think that me having it and letting her know — I'm being very vocal about it. I can't stress enough, especially being in the Black and Latino community, how that was seen as, like, a handicap. And it's not.The main thing as a parent with a child that has a learning disability is to make sure that you figure out what they were put here for. Hone in on it and run with it because it's about building that confidence as a kid.My daughter, she's super into science and drawing and art. She wants to be an animal scientist. So stuff like that, just really trying to make sure they're doing something on a daily basis that makes them feel good about themselves. And I feel like it counteracts the other stuff.Eleni: And you mentioned in the Black and Latinx community, there are some perceptions of differences being handicaps, I think is the word that you used. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what your view is on that? How stigma comes up, and how you have handled that within your own community or family?Raquel: I think it's just kind of embedded in who we are, because we're coming from generations where there was no exposure to this. People didn't know; you were just special. You know what I mean? So now that they're able to actually break it down and specifically tell you, it's kind of lightening the load. But I think that again, within the Black and Latino community, because there's so much more exposure to this stuff, I do feel like it's getting better. But it takes people to talk about it to see that you can still be super successful and be OK.Eleni: That's great. Do you have any advice for people that are thinking about starting a business that perhaps was previously a hobby or a passion, especially if they have some sort of learning difference?Raquel: You know, I think that if you have someone — I got lucky enough, my husband is in marketing. So I guess I did it with my marriage too. So I kind of filled in where I lacked. And just really making sure that you have someone that backs you that maybe knows more about business than you do, if you don't know anything about it, and to do it. Because if you don't try, you already failed. You know what I mean? Like, the worst that happens is you fall on your behind and you're still better off. You're more experienced than had you not tried at all. I have my days here with four kids and I want to pull my hair out, and I get in my car and I go to my kitchen and I blast my music and I mind my business, and it's the best feeling ever. I really appreciate it, because I know that a lot of chefs don't get to experience that. And I always used to say growing up, that, when I died, I would go to Heaven and be in the kitchen by myself with music playing.Eleni: And you can do it while you're alive.Raquel: And I didn't have to die to do it!Eleni: Thanks so much for being on the show, Raquel. It was so great having you.Raquel: Thank you so much for having me.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" was created by Andrew Lee and is produced by Gretchen Vierstra and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
8 activities to help your child explore strengths and passions
Focusing on strengths is just as important as recognizing challenge areas. Encouraging your child to explore strengths and passions (and take healthy risks) can be a real self-esteem booster. Here are some activities to try.Hiking, biking, walking, and climbingIs your child curious and full of energy? Walking, biking, hiking, and climbing allow your child to be athletic without the pressure of being part of a team. If your child prefers being alone, likes to learn by exploring the world, and is frequently on the move, playing outside might be ideal.MusicDoes your child love to sing and make music? Music uses many different parts of the brain at once to process rhythm, emotion, and movement. All of the elements of music — including tempo, pitch, and beat — are key pieces of learning to read, too. Singing along to songs at home with your child is a great activity to explore music together.And there are many kinds of other music activities to try out. Some may offer your child a chance to be part of a group (such as a band). Others, such as drumming, help build functional skills like movement control.DebateDoes your child know a lot of information and enjoy sharing it with other people? Debate might be worth a shot. Debate club could help your child build friendships with people who have common interests. It can also help your child develop clearer communication skills and ways to organize thoughts.DramaSome kids enjoy storytelling and love being the center of attention. Drama club can be a good outlet for creative kids. It provides a way for them to learn how plot, characters, and setting work together to make a story powerful. For kids who aren’t comfortable in the limelight, there are plenty of behind-the-scenes roles, like set design or costumes. All of these jobs can be a way to be part of a team.ArtDoes your child like to draw, paint, or sculpt? Art classes can be a good way to let kids explore the beauty they see in the world. Drawing and painting can also build motor skills as well as teach shapes, spatial relationships, size, and other mathematical concepts.DanceDoes your child love to move and groove? Dance gives kids a social way to learn rhythm, coordination, motor skills, and following directions. Kids also practice visual-spatial skills, which can be helpful when it comes to reading and math.Coding Does your child like to build things, or play on computers? Coding can be a great activity to try. Kids can explore coding on their own on a computer or tablet. There are also many organizations that offer free in-person or online classes. When kids code, they use problem-solving skills and practice flexible thinking as they adjust plans that don’t work. TennisDoes your child have a lot of energy and good visual-spatial skills? Tennis helps kids practice hand-eye coordination and movement planning. Tennis is primarily a one-on-one sport. That makes it good for kids who aren’t as comfortable in large social groups, but who need to work on social skills. Your child will learn to follow rules, set personal goals, and be accountable for making progress. There are free or low-cost ways to play tennis. Check out your local parks for courts and programs. Or try a local community center.Download a free activity to help identify your child’s strengths. And explore tips for talking to your child about strengths and challenges.
In ItBack-to-school action plan: Setting goals and getting organized
Starting a new school year can be overwhelming, especially for kids who learn and think differently. Get tips for making it more manageable. For many families, the new school year brings a real mixed bag of emotions. There’s the excitement of a fresh start combined with jitters about all of the unknowns. For families of kids who learn and think differently, there may be IEPs or 504 plans, and new teachers to connect with about all these things. It’s a lot to think about — and to navigate.In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with returning guest DeJunne’ Clark Jackson, an education consultant and parent advocate. She’s also the mom of two kids, one with an IEP. Tune in for back-to-school strategies that have worked well for DeJunne’ and her family. Find out how she sets goals with both of her kids, keeping in mind their strengths and challenges.Related resources Download: Back-to-school update for families to give to teachersDownload: Goals calendar for kids who struggle with planningMy kids have different strengths and challenges. Here’s how I set goals with them.Hear more from DeJunne’ in this episode about parent-teacher conferences from last season Get back-to-school tips from executive function coach Brendan Mahan in this episode about building executive function skills Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: ...the ups and downs...Gretchen: ...of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor with a family that's definitely in it.Gretchen and I have been away from our microphones for most of the summer, apart from a bonus episode here and there. But with the new school year very much upon us, I think we're ready to jump back in.Gretchen: Actually, here in California, school has already been going on for a few weeks. But that doesn't mean we couldn't use some tips on how to help our kids get off to a good start.Rachel: Not to mention what to do if things get bumpy fast.Gretchen: So to help us with that, we've invited back DeJunne' Clarke Jackson.Rachel: DeJunne' is a former teacher and school counselor based in Baton Rouge. Now, she works as an educational therapist and student advocate.Gretchen: She's also president of the Center for Literacy and Learning, a nonprofit that supports teachers who teach reading.Rachel: And she's a parent of two kids, one with learning differences and one without.Gretchen: Last time she joined us, we talked about how to prepare for parent-teacher conferences. And we will never forget her describing herself as "the five-inch binder mom."Rachel: We're so glad to have her back with us today. DeJunne', welcome back to "In It."DeJunne': Thank you for having me. So glad to be back.Gretchen: We are so happy to have you back. And last time we had you on the podcast, you talked about your two kids. And I know one of them learns and thinks differently and has an IEP. And I'm wondering if you're talking to your kids before school starts, and what kinds of conversations you're having with them.DeJunne': So, yes, I am having conversations with both my boys, age 9 and 14. So we're going into the fourth and the 10th grade. My oldest, of course, is the one with learning differences. So their conversations are the same, but different.And so we actually started having those conversations at the end of last school year. So we don't reserve those conversations for just the start of this upcoming school year. Mostly because my boys really try to avoid knowing that school is starting. So we — I really want to capture their attention when they're in this mindset of like being open to having those conversations about what the next school year looks like. What did this last school year look like?And my conversations with my 9-year-old look a lot different than my 14-year-old because his conversations are, you know, a lot around like social norms and expectations and, you know, our friendships in the social media realm and navigating teenager hood.Gretchen: Yeah, I'm so glad to hear you brought up social things. I'm wondering, especially with your older child, do you kind of reflect on last year in terms of academics and then set academic goals for the following year? Talk a little bit about that.DeJunne': Yeah. So we set academic goals for both kids. One thing about goal setting, though, our expectation is that both kids do their best. And it varies per subject. So we lean into the strengths.And if I know that science is your jam and you're good at it, then we set the expectation to match your ability. And if it's an A and we know you can perform at an A, then we set that expectation at an A. And if math is your challenge and we know you struggle through it and you show up every day to try your best and be your best, and if your best in math is a C on your best day, then a C is what we, you know, high-five you for.Rachel: I really like that — leaning into strengths and challenges. Because sometimes it can be easy for us to say, well, you got an A in science, so that means you can definitely get an A in math too, right? And then that can feel really defeating for your kid, because maybe they can't get an A in math too.DeJunne': And this is coming from an educator. So when I tell my friends this, they're like, Oh my God, I can't believe like, you don't want, you know, you don't want to to breed this like Harvard, you know?Even with my youngest, who, you know, who performs really well academically, and at the end of the day, I just want to create human beings that are, you know, wonderful law-abiding citizens, that are helpful, that have good hearts, and who are proud of themselves because they showed up every day and did their best.And so sometimes you just need to lean into those strengths. And then really appreciating and celebrating the strengths that are nonacademic, right? So having and appreciating the fact that your student may not excel. They may be a straight C student. But they're an extremely talented artist. Or they can play an instrument really well. Or they excel in sports.And that's the thing that keeps them going. That's the thing that helps them show up to math class every day that they hate. But they're doing it because the goal that you set is, you know, for them in order to get to that area of strength and to continue in that, you sort of tied in, you know, well, you know, we're going to make sure that we maintain our C average in all these subjects in order to support your love of art or go to this art showcase this year, you know. And so you just want to make sure it all marries together.Gretchen: Well, I'm going to switch gears a minute and get to a kind of more nuts-and-bolts question. A lot of times for many kids, the new school year also comes with like new organization methods. Maybe it's like a new folder. Or maybe they've gone to like the Dollar Store and gotten some caddies to organize things in. And it's going to be great. I'm going to be so organized with my pens here and this here.And then perhaps after a month or two, all this flash of new caddies and whatnot starts to fall apart. Do you have any strategies for this — of how to set like organization kind of goals that will actually work and won't break the bank too?DeJunne': Yeah, this — honestly, a very transparent moment as a parent. This has been one that we've struggled with. We had a laundry list of things that didn't work. We've tried binders and dividers and labeled folders and journals and agendas. And I think that's sort of where you begin. You try. And if it doesn't work, you try a different way. And you just keep trying something until it works.And we've, for a number of years, lived for a checklist. I mean, checklists got us through everything — from waking up in the morning, to tying our shoes, brushing our teeth, you know, taking our medicine, getting out the door. If we did not have a checklist, it did not get done.And that's one thing that we realized: Our kiddo was a minimalist. So the more things we gave him, the more frazzled he would be and trying to remember how to use those systems. Right? So that's why we we sort of came to the conclusion of, Oh, this is why a checklist was so easy, because it was simple.And so now we function with one notebook. We don't even have the fancy notebook with the divided sections. Because we tried that — like math, science, social studies. Everybody's getting written in one section. We do one folder and pray to God that all the papers get into the folder. Sometimes they are crumpled up at the bottom of the book bag most times. Rachel: But they're there.DeJunne': Yeah, but they're there. And then his computer and his phone are the most valuable assets for us, because his phone, the notes app — and of course I'm talking about the oldest kid with the learning challenges — the phone, his notes app. It's a running record of God knows what, but it gets there. And then his computer because his teachers in the communication, everything is on that computer. That's what we've sort of teetered along those lines.But yeah, we've struggled through a number of years because we wanted it to be all nice and pretty with the caddy and the different colored pens and the highlighters and stickers and, you know, and that works for some. And I say, go for it. And Dollar Tree will be your best friend, you know? But for some, less is more.Rachel: So for families with kids who learn and think differently, and maybe they have IEPs or 504s and maybe they don't. But they still want to kind of level-set at the beginning of the school year. Who should they touch base with? Teachers or school counselors? Specialists? And like, when is the right time to do that? Should they wait for their parent-teacher conference? Or, you know, how much time should they give for a conversation to happen that's just kind of like, hey, just want to touch base.DeJunne': Yeah. So I want to preface my answer by saying, yeah, there are categories of parents who have sort of been in this space of students with learning differences. I would probably be categorized as the crusader parent, right? I've been in this fight for a long time. I am probably the one that's on the horse with the shield, you know, with the sword in the air leading the calvary behind me.And so have to say that, right, because it depends on where you are in this journey. So I say that because my answer is everyone. Who you should touch base with is everyone at the start of the school year. Elementary looks much different than high school. Those "everyones" look a little different on each campus.But I also say that with — I use the sort of target or dartboard model when I work with the "everyone," you know, sort of model. I look at those who are closest or have the most touchpoints to my kiddo. So I may start with his classroom teacher. And of course, elementary, you'll know, it's probably just, you know, one teacher and maybe the school counselor. That's your core.But if your kiddo has an IEP, then of course the core is the IEP teacher of record. Then maybe your next ring could be the assistant principal or the dean or whomever. He may have a next touchpoint with your kiddo. Maybe your kiddo has some behavior challenges, so you may want to reach out to the dean of students or the vice principal who handles your behavior, you know, concerns. And then the next one might be the principal.But are sort of these layers, right, that you're building out from? But at the end of the day, I need everyone to know, hey, here's my kid. He has an IEP. I want to make sure you're aware and that you have a copy, and that he has those things in place on day one. And that I am his parent and that I am here to support you and to support him. And reinforce what is happening in the learning environment. And I want to do this outreach campaign at the beginning of the school year.To your point, I don't wait to parent-teacher conference. Because those usually aren't scheduled until like September, October, and by then it's too late. I don't want to talk about how he's underperforming at that time. I want to get it out and get it ahead of time.Gretchen: Right. Because your kids are starting in August. So October would feel like a long ways in.DeJunne': Forever away. So we want to get it ahead of time. Some send letters. I'm sure we've seen all the the letters that float around on social media that introduces their kid. I think those are so cute. I like the in-person, you know, feel so that we can put a face to name. I don't want to give too much information. I want them to get to know my kid for themselves, and just give them sort of that surface level of information. But just really as an introductory.Gretchen: Well, I know we're close to our end DeJunne'. But I do have a question that I think a lot of families might be wondering about, which is, you know, school starts fresh, start, you know, reset. Maybe a month in, oh my goodness. Things have not gone as we thought.Like maybe there's some, you know, bad interactions with other kids or teachers, you know, like my teacher, I don't like them. Or, you know, there's been a couple of failed tests or whatnot. Who knows what it is. But this you know, it's not the the glory you had hoped for. So how do you not despair? How do you not despair as a parent? And how do you help your kid not despair when that happens?DeJunne': It's difficult. You just you want — your immediate instinct as a parent is probably to fix it, right? You just want to fix it. You want to make it all better. I'd probably say that if things are looking doom-and-gloom in the beginning, that there's probably, you know, some transitioning pains, some growing pains.Because remember, this is new, especially your younger kiddos, new teachers. You're not doing it like Miss So-and-so did it. This is not how I'm used to it being done. It's new for them. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily bad. It's just different, you know? And so helping them understand the difference will really help as you talk to them through those things.I could probably say that there's probably a lack of communication or miscommunication or misunderstandings somewhere. I don't recommend just, you know, jumping in to trying to fix it. You know, have conversations for the goal of understanding and be proactive versus reactive. Really get into there and, you know, work with your child's teacher. Or work with whatever information that you need to know to be able to gain an understanding and awareness of what's going on. Instead of, you know, having them just adapt. Like, oh, get over it, you know, you'll get used to it.Encourage them to self-advocate. You know, it's so important and it's so underrated to have kids have a voice. And I think it comes from that, you know, that old-school parenting, that mindset that kids are, you know, to be seen and not heard. And I think we've done such a great job of trying to change that and have our kids be heard as we talk to our kids more and give them a voice. And have them know that it's OK to speak up.You know, teaching them, like, how do I politely interrupt. You know, even like sort of the process by which we speak up and that we use our voice. And so encouraging them to self-advocate. So if something doesn't sit right or feel right, or they believe that they are misheard or misunderstood, then how do I tell my teacher that? So even just giving them permission to have dialog with their teachers that they want just a better understanding? I think that that's a great place to start.Rachel: Yeah, and the teachers appreciate that. The teachers appreciate that.DeJunne': Yeah. Yeah. And they should. And if they don't, then that's a different conversation we can have.Rachel: Yeah, well, that is all so helpful. I have one more question. Any other advice you have for parents and caregivers or maybe even for teachers and support staff as we get settled into the new school year?DeJunne': Give grace. Our kids are trying. And if they're not trying, find out why. And I think when we get to that, we'll discover those strengths and pull out the things that they need help discovering. And I think we'll get our kids, you know, those goals that we set for them, they'll accomplish. I'm excited for our kiddos.Gretchen: I'm excited, too. Especially after talking to you today. I feel like it was a pep talk for us. Thank you so much for being with us, DeJunne'.Rachel: Thank you.DeJunne': Thank you for having me again.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at InIt@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being in it with us.
ADHD Aha!“Don’t be lazy!” That ADHD voice, plus the ADHD tax (Tony’s story)
Tony Tran could focus on his job, but not schoolwork. It turns out he had ADHD all along. Now, he’s grieving “lost time” and considering the ADHD tax. Tony Tran decided to get evaluated for ADHD during his last year of college, after starting a part-time IT job. His grades began to slip, and his brain would scream at him: “Don’t be lazy!” Then he realized that the fake scenarios he had to solve alone in class were boring compared to the real-life problems he collaborated on with his co-workers. When Tony was a child, his family immigrated from Vietnam to Australia. Growing up, Tony’s ADHD symptoms were missed. But now his mom even sees ADHD in herself. After being diagnosed, Tony felt grief for lost time — time when he could have known why he felt like the “annoying weird kid.” Time when he could have held on to relationships that ended because of his trouble managing emotions. But that lost time led him to who he is today: A person with deeper understanding of ADHD and the strengths that can come with it.Also in this episode: The “ADHD tax.” Listen in to see if you’ve paid a literal price as a result of ADHD behaviors. Related resourcesADHD and coping with rejectionADHD and emotions5 ways ADHD can affect social skillsEpisode transcriptTony: I just had to, like, sit back and ask why am I failing all of a sudden? Because I always assumed I was lazy or couldn't do my work on time. But it didn't feel like that because this was right around the time where I got my first job in IT. And at the job, I really put 110% in. And I did everything. I learned super quickly. So I would just do my work instead, because it was much more interesting to me.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm so excited to be here today with Tony Tran, a 24-year-old recent college graduate — which we would call college in the United States. But Tony is in Australia. So we'll say university graduate, who was diagnosed with ADHD last year. Thank you so much for being here with me today, Tony.Tony: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about it.Laura: And we say today, but there's that — we've been having some discussion about what "today" means because it's 9 a.m. where I am and it's midnight where you are. So we're not even sure if we're in the same day.Tony: Saturday just started for me.Laura: Yeah, there we go. So in addition to everything that I just said, you also are an "ADHD Aha!" listener who wrote in. And we are really compelled by your story, so we wanted to invite you on the show. So thank you for being a listener.Tony: Thank you for making the show. It actually has helped me. A lot of symptoms that you and the guests talk about on the show aren't really covered — at least not as specific as the show is — online or anything. And it's just I've had like multiple "aha" moments listening to the show, where I'm like, oh, I do that.Laura: I have "aha" moments recording these shows and talking with folks like you. So that makes me happy to hear. Thank you.Well, when you wrote in to us, one of the things that you had said in your email was that last year, which was the year that you got diagnosed, you said that it was, and I'm quoting you, "a tumultuous, eye-opening year." So I'm thinking let's start with — explain to me what that was about.Tony: So I got diagnosed in around March of last year. And immediately my first reaction was to ask a bunch of like "what if" questions. Like, what if I got diagnosed earlier? Like, what if I knew about this? Would I have not struggled have as much in the past?I just had a lot of regret and grief about what I had gone through in the past. Like, for example, I've learned a lot about emotional dysregulation. And I spent a month kind of getting over the fact that it has had an effect on my life, and it led me to here.But like now that I know how to deal with it, I can move forward. But in the past it has probably ruptured a lot of friendships and relationships. And just, I never did well in school, but I wasn't a bad student. I know my teachers liked me. It's just I — no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't do the right thing when it came to assignments.You know, there's a phrase that's going around. Like "they understood the assignment." I don't think I ever understood an assignment, because I would like to venture off on my own adventure when I start them and just, like, completely missed the point or do, like, my own interpretation of it.Laura: What was going on right before you decided to get evaluated for ADHD? What was your, I guess, tipping point or like maybe your big "aha" moment?Tony: So, I realized that my grades at university were really slipping. I was starting to fail. And I just had to like, sit back and ask, why am I failing all of a sudden? Because I always assumed I was lazy or couldn't do my work on time. But it didn't feel like that.Because this was right around the time where I got my first job in IT. And at the job, I really put 110% in. I did everything. I learned super quickly. And I realized that before, I could make myself do university work because I told myself that I was lazy. It's time to do something productive. Get on it, Tony. But at that time, it was more like you need to do something productive. So I would just do my work instead, because it was much more interesting to me.Laura: Were you studying IT?Tony: Yes, I was studying IT, and I landed a good internship that led into like a part-time job.Laura: What was the difference to you? Like, what was motivating about doing the job versus doing the studies?Tony: I found out that I'm very much a "working with other people" sort of person. I can't really learn much in a school context, because I just need to have like a good reason about why we're doing things. And I need to be working towards something greater than like a vague scenario.Another thing that I've noticed recently as well is I tend to lose interest if I'm not allowed to be creative in doing what I'm setting out to do. So with my studies, there was a lot of "here's the problem; we need you to solve in this specific way using this thing." Whereas if I was working, it was just the problem and I got to go off and like talk to different people, research a bunch of different methods I can like use, and like have different things to work with rather than just lecture slides of examples of what I can use.Laura: Yeah, I hear you. Tell me about what would go through your brain. Like, what was your thought process when you needed to study, when you needed to do something to prepare for a test, for example. As opposed to, say, doing the job, which was interesting to you and you could focus on that.Tony: It was a lot of self-deprecation. There was a lot of being really hard on myself. It did take getting really close to the deadline for me to actually do it. I would often pull all-nighters or do stuff the night before and then just have like a wave of regret that I didn't spend enough time doing it afterwards.So it's a lot of telling myself, "You need to do this, don't be lazy." I think there was a lot of pressure of getting good grades so you get a job.Laura: Yeah. I mean, not the kind of pressure that was motivating to you, though. It was more...Tony: Yeah, it was not a good type of pressure. Before I did IT, I did study law for about two years. And I didn't do well in that field, because it was a lot of reading and I can't sit still and read. There was a very big notion of if you're not going to get this grade, drop out — it's not going to work out for you. So I carried that on into my IT degree.Laura: So would you say that your "aha" moment — I'm going to make sure I understand the timeline — did it really come at that moment when you started working as opposed to studying?Tony: Yeah, I think it's the moment where I was like, I need to figure this out. I've known for a very long time that there was something going on. I have actually chased a lot of different diagnoses before ADHD. I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety, persistent depressive disorder. And I thought I had a lack of focus. So we did sleep tests, and it turned out I had sleep apnea as well. So I invested into a CPAP machine.It was just a lot of things that didn't really solve it. It helped, but it wasn't life-changing as much as I thought it would be — until I got my ADHD diagnosis. And that's why I said it was like eye-opening. I felt like when I got it, the world lit up, like everything started making sense.Laura: You got diagnosed with ADHD, and you worked with doctors. Did they say that you don't have those other diagnoses and that you had been misdiagnosed? Or is it that it's kind of all part of the puzzle?Tony: We didn't really touch on it, but I do believe that it's all part of the puzzle.Laura: I mean, yeah, there's so much co-morbidity or co-occurrence between, for example, anxiety and ADHD, and depression and ADHD. And then you pull in the sleep issues as well. And that can make things extra tricky, right? Because if you're struggling with sleep, sleep can also affect your attention and your focus. So yeah, it sounds like that was a lot too to parse through.Tony: But yeah, once I did get diagnosed, it was this incredible feeling on like the first day where I'm like, oh, finally. It's something that could explain a lot. Like there was something off, I felt, in school. I was definitely the weird kid.Laura: What do you mean by that?Tony: Well, all the kids found me annoying. I vividly remember. "Annoying" was the word that they were using. So I started reflecting on that when I got my diagnoses. And I'd just think and remember, this is part of my impulsivity and hyperactivity as a kid. If someone told me not to do something, I'd feel compelled to do it just to see what would happen.Laura: Can you give me an example, please?Tony: Oh, like teachers told me not to bring toys to school. I brought toys to school the next day just to see what would happen. I needed that to not feel bored in school. Oh, this is a very good example. There was a specific rule for me and this girl that I was friends with back in school that we could never go near this table that was stone.Laura: OK.Tony: And what did I do? I climbed on the table and I broke it.Laura: Oh, my gosh. But you broke a stone table. Doesn't sound like a very strong stone.Tony: It was in two pieces. So when I sat on the edge, the top flipped over.Laura: Oh, were you OK?Tony: Oh, I was fine. But it was a lot of that where it felt like I had this curiosity that I couldn't control.Laura: Did you get in trouble at school?Tony: Oh, so much. So, when I was growing up, it was just Mom and I. And she was working a lot, so she never went to any of my teacher interviews. So when I was reading my report cards for the diagnoses and to give to the doctor, it was very clear that the teachers were trying to signal that I had ADHD. Because they used very textbook terms. It was a lot of "has trouble making friends in school," "has trouble staying on the task at hand," "needs to focus more in class." Yeah.Laura: Yeah, that's really hard. Do you have any siblings?Tony: I do. But when I was younger, we were immigrants, so it was just me and my mom at first. My sister came over to Australia years later.Laura: Where's your family from? You mentioned that you are immigrants.Tony: My family's from Vietnam. And the culture in Vietnam — we don't even have a word for ADHD or anything surrounding that. I was very fortunate to find like a translated Wikipedia article to send to my mom. And everything I've learned from the past year, I've passed onto her. And we found that she also has ADHD, and a lot of my family members has it as well.My mom went through this phase with me where she was panicking, because she thought she had like early-onset Alzheimer's. Because she kept forgetting things in like an ADHD way where she would like have very low active memory.Laura: So was your mom open to the idea of ADHD? Did she get diagnosed?Tony: No, no, no. She doesn't think it's worth it now because she's retired. But she was open to it, and it explained a lot to her as well. Particularly one thing was when she was working, she was kind of known as the dragon lady.Laura: Why?Tony: Because — so, she worked as a nail tech. So a lot of her job, like she would hyperfocus on doing what she was doing. And if anyone so much as like, spoke to her or touched or broke her out of that hyperfocus, she would snap. She would get angry.Laura: I understand that. Yeah, well, it sounds like you have a really nice relationship with your mom.Tony: Yeah, I think it's really good that she's open and I can talk to her about what's going on. And, yeah, we're still discovering new things about it. I have to say that my nephew probably also has it, and we're looking at getting him tested a little bit early. Because he's 11 years old right now, so it could help him with his school.Laura: How does that make you feel? I know that you have grieved lost time before being diagnosed. So how does it make you feel to talk about that?Tony: I am a bit jealous of him for being in a more aware environment now. But yeah, I'm happy that he gets this opportunity to sort of have more time to work on it — and work on it when there's no adult pressures.Laura: I totally understand the grieving of lost time. But wow, what a great gift that you can give by bringing this awareness to your family and helping your nephew maybe have more support than you got.Tony: Yeah. Even if he feels like he's not crazy growing up — perfect. Because I felt like I was insane growing up.Laura: Oh, I have a little tear in my eye, Tony. I'm really grateful to you and for bringing that light and awareness to your family. You briefly mentioned before some friendships that — I don't know if you said burnt out or they ended. Tell me about that.Tony: Looking back, I do have a lot of regret about this. But with the symptom of emotional dysregulation, my biggest thing was rejection sensitivity. So a lot of the time before I even realized it, if someone had like a party or like went to something and I didn't know about it, I would think that they didn't invite me on purpose. And I would just have this like snowball in my head of like, oh, they don't actually like me. And I would find it very easy to cut people out. And I've lost really good friends, I think, from that.And it's a lot of like being really sensitive to negative reactions from people. If they said something that was slightly offensive, I don't know. I would like have this train of thought in my head that would not stop and it would eventually always lead me to saying, oh, they're not worth it, I'm just gonna move on.For example, there was this one time where a group of friends of mine were getting together for drinks on a Saturday night. And I was doing something beforehand, but I told them I'll be there like an hour late. It's on at 7, I'll be there at 8. And when 8:00 rolled around, I sent a message, like, "Hey, guys, where you guys at? I'm on my way."And this was on Messenger, so you can see if people have seen the message. And I think some of them have and they didn't respond. So immediately I thought, oh my God, they don't want me there all of a sudden. These guys are being weird. It's not worth my time. I shouldn't. And it just kept snowballing, snowballing until I just stopped talking to them.And this train of thought happened in front of someone — my roommate at the time. And he had to sit me down the next day. It was like, whoa, that was really intense. Like, they probably just forgot to respond or they were checking — they saw it and they forgot to respond or something.Laura: I feel like I've been there a thousand times. And it's interesting to hear just because it's different than my reaction that you would kind of like just stop the friendship and be OK, that's — I guess it's just not worth it.My reaction was almost the opposite. And there's no better or worse reaction. But it was just — I would kind of grip really hard on the friendship and be like, hey, is everything OK? Is everything OK? Is everything OK? And then be kind of totally overbearing, like cringily overbearing with the friendship to make sure that, like, you still like me, right? Everything's OK? And it was just really awkward. And that's not — that's not healthy either. How do you cope with that now? Do you still experience that?Tony: I do, but I have learned to be very up-front. If something did happen, I can just be like, hey, just checking in. Is everything good? Most of my friends know I have ADHD now, and I've talked a lot about my symptoms. So I can just flag them if something is happening.Laura: Oh, cool. Can you pretend like I'm one of your friends? I'm interested to hear how you talk about your diagnosis and your symptoms to them.Tony: So I'm very late — a lot. I don't show up to things on time. And my friend, her name is Jing, she experiences that a lot. And at first, I think she would get annoyed. But then eventually, I kept telling them like, hey, I can't tell the time. I don't feel time passing as you do. So I am sorry if I'm late. I'm trying my best. But this is my best.Laura: That's great.Tony: And she understands. I've caught her setting times earlier now, just for that. And I appreciate it. But she doesn't do it all the time just because she likes to keep me on my toes.Laura: Wow. That's a really good technique. I like that a lot. Good job, Jing. That's a great idea.Tony: But yeah, I think it's really good to not be ashamed of having ADHD. And if I'm able to be up-front about it and explain to people what's going on in my head, it's a lot better for everyone.Laura: So the last time we chatted, you mentioned the ADHD tax — this idea that there's a price, like a literal price, that you pay as a result of ADHD symptoms like impulsivity and procrastination. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your perception of the ADHD tax and how it's affected you in your life.Tony: Probably the most expensive thing that I spent for ADHD tax is my university bills.Laura: Right?Tony: Just picking up courses, realizing I don't like them, and dropping them. Or like not handing in an assignment. Sometimes I fail them and have to do them again. That's probably the biggest one.But the most common one I would say is I cook a lot. Before my job now, I was a part-time cook.Laura: You have so many talents, Tony.Tony: Thank you.Laura: A lawyer, IT, cook. I love it.Tony: Well, I wouldn't say, Laura, I wasn't very good at that.Laura: But I'm giving it to you. You spent — you put in the effort.Tony: But yeah, I still cook a lot. And the big thing is I would over-make everything that I eat. Like I have like an inspiration one weekend to meal prep for the next week. And then I'll have the meal once and then I get sick of it. And then I just leave it in the fridge and I procrastinate, eating that one meal, and it just goes to waste.Laura: I love cooking. I get so stressed out about grocery shopping, because I know I'm going to do the exact same thing. I've got like three meals that are about to expire if I don't cook them soon, downstairs in my fridge.But I think when we chatted I told you about the most recent example of how the ADHD tax was affecting me. Which was that I had forgotten that I had bought my kids new winter coats.Tony: Oh, right. Yeah.Laura: And so I was like, oh man, I need to get my kids new winter coats. And then I ordered my son like a coat and my daughter a coat. And the coats arrived, and I realized that I had already bought them two winter coats that I hadn't even taken out of storage yet. Like I had bought them when they were on sale the previous year or something like that. And I couldn't return half of — I don't know, it was just a big mess. And I ended up spending all this money on coats that I didn't need, so I donated them.But nonetheless, like I was just like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what Tony is talking about.Tony: It's a lot of like, if it's not in — if I can't see it, I forgot about it.Laura: Yeah, exactly. But I think the university bill is, you know, that's a big one. I know that's — you've talked about that, you know, in this interview and we talked when we talked previously about your feelings around taking longer than your peers. Which I don't think is very uncommon, and I think it's totally fine. But it's expensive, to your point.Tony: Yeah. And it just feels bad when everyone's graduating and you see pictures and it's sort of like, oh. So before I got diagnosed, it happened. And like another part of what happened last year was just thinking that could've been me if I had found this out sooner. Yeah, it was just grieving over lost time.Laura: Do you feel like there's anything that was gained, though, during that quote-unquote lost time?Tony: So I'm in a place now where I can very much appreciate my ADHD. I try not to think about the lost time, because it kind of led me to where I am now. But I am able to now think very positively about it.One thing that I have been praised on a lot is I can process information very quickly. For example, when I was learning how to cook in the restaurant setting, it was in a physical environment. So I can use my hands, I can — I also had validation from the head chef. So what would take people two weeks to learn, I learned in about four days. Because I learned that how my brain works is I can quickly recognize like points and act on them very quickly, and just get this dopamine rush that keeps me going. So I like to say that I'm not a fast learner. I'm a very fast improver.Laura: I love that. "I'm not a fast learner. I'm a very fast improver." That's great.Tony: So I would get it wrong. But as soon as someone highlights where I got wrong? Fixed.Laura: Cool. What's next for you on your ADHD journey, Tony? What are you trying to tackle or cope with or enjoy?Tony: So, there's that ADHD tax issue that I'm working on. But one thing that I'm almost there — I'm so close to mastering it — is being so much of a yes man when someone asks me to do something. I get a lot of FOMO. Fear of missing out. So no matter how tired or how busy I am, if someone asked me if I would want to do something, I just forget that I have that feeling and I'm in the middle of something. And I would say yes, let's do it. And I've done it a lot. I have to backtrack like five minutes later. Like, I'm so sorry. I actually can't.Laura: Yeah.Tony: But it's a lot of that impulsive need to say yes to everything. And like that, emotional disregulation still comes up every now and then. Most recently, like during New Year's when, like, different people were going to different parties and I was like, oh, I wasn't invited to those. Hello. And then first taking it really personally. And then realizing that other people have different friends that they just hang out with. And it's just that — it's not that they hate me and they don't want to hang out with me. It's that they already said yes to something beforehand.Laura: Your stories are making me weirdly nostalgic. And — because I remember this as someone with ADHD, I remember a lot of these feelings. And then there's this magical thing that happens when you have kids. You're too tired to worry about anything, and you just go to bed. Like I was asleep at 9:30 on New Year's Eve.Tony: You said you were tired. Do you ever have this feeling where as soon as you lie down, you just get a second wind of energy?Laura: Yes.Tony: Yeah. That's a big problem for me. Yeah. I actually experienced a lot of sleep paralysis, and I think it happens because my body is falling asleep, but my brain is still widely awake. And one thing that I've done to deal with that is I need something to listen to that I don't really care about.Laura: Yes.Tony: And it just eases my brain into like sleeping. But if I don't have that, I can feel myself falling asleep. And it's just like heavy weight on my chest. And it's just...Laura: Totally. You are so on top of the game because I was — right before you said "something to listen to," I was going to recommend something. And it was actually — I'm not trying to just plug other podcasts that we have. But this was on another show that we have called "In It." But they did an episode on ADHD and sleep, and the expert that they interviewed on the show recommended like put on something that you — like I put on a TV show that I've seen a million times, but like just the sound of it. And I cannot fall asleep until that is just playing in the background. And then it's like I'm out. But if it's just silence or just sound machine, it's not enough for me.Tony: Because you start overthinking, right?Laura: Oh, yeah. And then I'm like, oh, I have to get up at this time. And every minute that passes is another minute that I'm not getting...Tony: And your brain remains just so active. Sorry. I'm — another symptom. I'm interrupting you in the middle of your sentence.Laura: No, not at all. I think you've been extremely polite.Tony: I interrupt people in the mid-sentence a lot, and immediately I catch myself. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I have ADHD. I don't know when you're done talking. So I'll just stay quiet and you just give me, like, a literal signal when you're done.Laura: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Tony, like, OK, so I have to say this. You — you're 24. I know that you feel like you lost a lot of time, and I guess, you know, it's all relative. But you at 24 have so many more coping techniques, and you are so much better at advocating for yourself.I didn't even get diagnosed till I was 30. So this is just — I don't know. I feel like you're ahead of the game. So just keep that in mind. It's really all about perspective, you know?Tony: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, jeez, That must've been hard. Did your world feel like it kind of flipped completely?Laura: Completely. But you know what? If it hadn't happened later in life, if I hadn't had the "aha" moment that I had, then I wouldn't get to be here talking with you, having the show. So.Tony: And I really appreciate that. I have a few people at work who think that they have ADHD as well, and I refer them to the show. Just because for me, specifically, it's a lot better than looking up symptoms and asking yourself oh, do I experience this? Do I experience that? Just hearing it from other people and what they have experienced and just pinpointing different scenarios was really good.Laura: Well, that's what we wanted to do. So thank you for saying that and for referring the show to other people. I agree. I think it's in hearing the totality in the context of a symptom, it actually puts a spotlight on it in a different way. It provides like the nuances of it.And I'm just really grateful to you for being here today. And I think you're fantastic. And you're bringing so much awareness and to your family and to friends. And I'm just so grateful that you're a listener and that you were here to talk with me today, Tony. Thank you so much.Tony: I was really excited about being on the show, because I feel like it kind of wrapped a bow on my last year. It was like the last year has been a character arc and this was like the big milestone at the end where I can finally reflect on what happened in the past year and share my story and sort of tell other people about it.Laura: I'm getting so emotional. Oh, my God, that's so beautiful.You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission."ADHD Aha" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.
When the IEP team focused on my strengths, it made all the difference
Have you ever heard that story about a child with ADHD who struggles in school, gets the right support and ends up thriving academically? Well, that wasn’t me. Yes, I have ADHD. And I struggled in school. But I don’t think of my education as a success.Today, people would say I was a child with executive function challenges. But really, when you boil things down, I just could never get anything done.My most distinct memory from grade school is always being called out in front of class for not finishing my work. Spelling was the worst.“Mr. Hager, did you finish your homework?”“You know, I was going to get it done, but then — ”“So you didn’t finish it?”I could hear the other kids whispering.“No.”One moment like that can hurt for a lifetime. Now imagine it happening to you every day, in every class, for your entire childhood. I nearly lost any sense of who I was.Throughout grade school, I spent a lot of time in the special education resource room. I actually didn’t mind going. It was a bit of an oasis, my special getaway, where no one saw me and I could just be me. What really bothered me was feeling ashamed about not being good at school.It was confusing because I was a bright, precocious kid. At family gatherings, I would end up talking with the adults, asking questions about their lives and work.The teachers were confused too: This kid seems smart — why is he failing? Maybe he’s just lazy and needs to try harder. But I was trying my hardest.At school, I became a guinea pig for all sorts of educational quick fixes. I remember at one point wearing headphones with classical music blasting in my ears to see if it would help me learn. Then there was the time the school literally put up a set of walls around my desk to block out distractions and help me pay attention. None of it worked.I do remember school staff caring about me. They tried their best. But what they did wasn’t consistent and never lasted. I think they looked at me as something that was broken and needed to be fixed, and it was frustrating that they couldn’t figure out how.By the start of high school, I was in a bad place. My parents and the school decided to have me start attending my IEP meetings, hoping that would help. Every meeting started off with a laundry list of what I was doing wrong. “Hasn’t turned in homework.” “Disorganized.” “Not following through.”I became quite introverted, almost a loner. I’m not sure if that was because of my struggles in school, or because I was a teenager trying to figure out who I was — maybe both.Change came from an unlikely place. In 10th grade, I ended up taking a standardized assessment and doing really well on it. My history teacher was shocked by the results. He’d attended my IEP meetings before, but this was the first time he’d seen a solid piece of data about what I was capable of.At the start of my next IEP meeting, he said: “Kevin, I knew you were smart, but not this smart.” Then — and my mom still talks about this — he said to everyone at the meeting:“Let’s just start with something Kevin is good at.”Then I wondered, what am I good at?Slowly, the other IEP team members started offering suggestions. “He’s very resilient,” one teacher said. There were a few nods. “He likes to ask questions,” someone else piped in. More nods.My history teacher then turned to me, “Hey Kevin, what do you think you’re best at?”In the last two years of high school, that one question changed my life. I’m not going to say I became a success at school — because that didn’t happen. (Though I once did get a 100 percent on a history test, which I was very proud of.)Instead, the question shifted the way I thought about myself. Until then, I always considered myself to be a failure at school. My history teacher gave me the freedom and possibility to think that I might have something positive to offer the world.As high school went on, I ended up spending a lot of time after class with teachers exploring what I was good at. I learned how to talk about my strengths: I’m resilient. (Being called out in class so often, I had to be.) I’m good at connecting and talking with people, just like I did with adults when I was a kid. I see the big picture. I have a strong work ethic. And now I could start building on those strengths.Like I said, I don’t really consider my education to be a success story. But thanks to my history teacher and the IEP team, I carry a whole lot less shame. They cared enough to ask me about my strengths, and it made all the difference.Learn how to recognize strengths in your child. Read about strengths-based IEPs and how they can help kids with learning and thinking differences. Kevin Hager is the founder and president of Hager Advisors, a philanthropic advisory firm. He previously served as vice president and chief digital officer for the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD) and as managing director of Understood. He is pictured above on his high school graduation day.
Understood Explains Season 1[TRAILER] Introducing Understood Explains, Season 1: Evaluations for Special Education
How do schools evaluate kids for special education? For a quick preview, listen to the trailer for Season 1 of the Understood Explains podcast. Listen to the trailer for Season 1 of Understood Explains, which covers the ins and outs of the process school districts use to evaluate kids for special education. Host Dr. Andy Kahn is a psychologist who spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for schools. He explains each step of the process and gives tips on how to talk with your child along the way. Episode transcriptLisa: By the time our son was in first grade, it was really apparent to us that something was off. Unfortunately, at that time, we didn't realize we had the right to request an evaluation. Andy: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "Understood Explains." In our first season, we explain evaluations for special education. Over 10 episodes, we cover the ins and outs of the process that school districts use to evaluate children for special education services.Keith: I would say yes, I am glad that he was evaluated. And I am glad that the diagnosis is there because you know, now, what you're dealing with. Andy: We’ll talk with experts about every part of the process, from the basics of an evaluation…Julian: Really, the whole purpose of this is to understand where are the gaps? And where are the strengths? Andy: …to understanding the results.Ellen: You don't need to know every single thing. What you need to know is why it's meaningful, and then where do we go from here?Andy: We’ll also get tips for how to talk to your child every step of the way…Amanda: This is not being done to your child, it's being done for your child. And I think that makes all the difference in the world.Andy: Tune in to "Understood Explains," available wherever you get your podcasts.
Video: How a Jeweler With Dyslexia Found His Strengths
From a young age, Blaine Lewis knew he learned differently. He was struggling in school with reading. And when he was 8, he was diagnosed with dyslexia. Lewis had strengths, too. He picked up knowledge quickly. He was also gifted with his hands, and he loved to create things.Even though his parents wanted him to go to college, he realized that wasn’t his path. Instead, he started a career in metalworking. In just a few years, he became an industry leader in the field of jewelry and stone setting.Hear from Lewis on how he found his strengths as a jeweler and goldsmith with dyslexia.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!ADHD hyperfocus brings this journalist’s research to the next level
Omar Mouallem is a journalist and filmmaker with ADHD. His ability to hyperfocus on projects wins him awards. Omar Mouallem is a journalist and filmmaker with ADHD. Omar has worn many hats — journalist, documentary filmmaker, “fake dean” of his self-made school Pandemic University School of Writing, and real professor — all without a college degree. When he began writing Praying to the West, he struggled to focus on one topic for an entire book. That led Omar to his ADHD diagnosis.A freelance writer for many years, Omar flourished as his busy mind moved from project to project. He’s won awards for his investigative journalism, where hyperfocusing down research rabbit holes is a strength. When the pandemic hit, and work dried up overnight, he had a lot to reconsider. Listen to this week’s episode of How’d You Get THAT Job?! to hear how he got his start from a Craigslist ad — and how impulsivity can actually work in your favor. Related resourcesPraying to the West: How Muslims Shaped the Americas, by Omar MouallemAmazing Cats, by Omar MouallemDigging in the Dirt documentaryADHD and hyperfocusWhat is self-awareness?Episode transcriptOmar: If I feel like there's this one little detail in a story, it's kind of tangential, but I want it. I feel like I need it. I'll put an hour into it just so that I can complete that sentence. That's just kind of the way my mind works. And I guess I try to play to my mind's strengths. Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is " How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host. My next guest is Omar Mouallem. He's a Canadian journalist who digs deep into topics from food to religion. He's written award-winning books and worked on documentary films. He even started an online school for writing. It's called Pandemic University or "PanU," where he's now the dean. Even though he never received a college degree. He was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. That information helped him understand some of the challenges he's faced in his career, and it also helped him harness his strengths. Welcome to the show, Omar. Omar: Thanks. It's a pleasure to be on the show. Eleni: While I was preparing for this interview, I googled you, of course, and I noticed you have two books. The most recent is "Praying to the West: How Muslims Shaped the Americas." It's won a bunch of awards, sounds super interesting. It's now on my reading list, and…Omar: I know where this is going. Eleni: …the other one might also be on my reading list, but it's from 13 years ago, and it's a very different genre. Omar: A little bit. Eleni: It's called "Amazing Cats." Omar: Yes. You want to know how that happened? Eleni: Yeah. Like, how did you go from cats to examining Islam? Omar: The, honestly, the cat stories, I think probably a lot easier to tell than the book that examines Islam. The cat story is very simple. In 2007 — I would have been maybe 21 or 22 — I'd just dropped out of college, and this is my third college in three years because I thought that I didn't need a degree to become a writer or a journalist, and I could just find the work myself. And I did what I thought you do when you're looking for writing jobs, which is you go on Craigslist, and let me tell you what a terrible place to try to become a writer. Eleni: Is that what people think that we do?Omar: This is what stupid people think they do. And I am very comfortable admitting to being a stupid person. And so, yeah, most of the listings there were obviously pretty scammy, but there was one but from a local publisher that said something along the lines of looking for an author/writer to write true stories about cats, specifically true stories about cats. And I don't know, I thought it was like an anthology or something, a collection of essays about cats. I had a cat. I've had cats all my life. I really love cats. And so, I applied. And then months later, I got invited for an interview. And that's where I found out that it was an entire book about cats by one person they were looking to publish. And I got that book deal. The fact that it was on Craigslist gives you an idea of how little it paid. But at that time, $5,000 was the most that I could actually maybe imagine a writer being paid for a job. So, I said yes. Eleni: Wow. So, perhaps not so stupid after all. Omar: Well, you know, it's, I love the fact that my first book was and will always be "Amazing Cats." It is probably the best, like, cocktail party story I could ever tell. Does it sometimes get in the way of, like, trying to present myself as a serious person? Sometimes. But I also don't mind being underestimated. I also do some hard investigative journalism as well, and sometimes I'll go into those interviews that are going to be tough. I’m gonna ask a lot of tough questions. It's going to get uncomfortable and you know, the subject or their handler or their companies PR person will try to grease me up and they'll bring up "Amazing Cats." They'll say, "Hey, I googled you and this came up, " and I know what's going on, right? So, I love being underestimated in those situations because then they don't really see it coming. Eleni: How did you end up doing investigating work? Omar: I mean, it's just part of being a freelancer. I have a reputation, I guess, for being a pretty thorough researcher going down rabbit holes. And so, that reputation, I think, just kind of, it just kind of snowballed into, "Well, if you can do this about a story, you know, if you can do this for a story about, say, like the cannabis industry or for a story about the HPV vaccine, then you could probably do this for a investigative piece about a sexual predator." And I hope that's true. I am specifically working on a story about that right now. I like a great story. And it doesn't matter if it makes you laugh, and it doesn't matter if it makes you cry. If it's a great story, it's a great story. And I don't really feel like I need to be a one-note writer. Eleni: Totally. You mentioned going down rabbit holes. We have spoken to other writers on this show that talk about getting into really deep, hyperfocus when they're working. Omar: Oh yes. Eleni: Yeah. I wondered if, you know, that's come up for you and if you feel like it relates to ADHD in any way?Omar: I think it does. Yeah. It's like a really, low-key euphoria or mania when it hits you. Eleni: Low-key mania. I like that. Omar: Kind of, right? I'll just lose sense of time and I will certainly lose sense of priority. I mean, there's a couple of ways to look at it. It's not really something I can control very well because I, you know, I'm not great at prioritizing what maybe should be prioritized sometimes. So, if I feel like there's this one little detail in a story, it's kind of tangential, but I want it. I feel like I need it. I'll put an hour into it just so that I can complete that sentence. That's just kind of the way my mind works. And I guess I try to play to my mind's strengths. Eleni: I know that, you know, you got your ADHD diagnosis in the last five years, which is recent, you know, based on the limited knowledge I have of your book. It sounds like you were able to address, you know, some of your Muslim identity, and how that made you feel othered. Like, have you ever felt the same way in terms of like how your brain works and your neurodiversity in terms of feeling othered? Omar: That's a really good question that no one's ever asked me that I've never asked myself. Thankfully, everyone around me growing up and throughout my adolescence and young adulthood has kind of supported me in just my, I guess, my random pursuits or in my neurodiversity, I guess. I'm the black sheep in my family. But my parents were really supportive in encouraging me to pursue my creative pursuits. It's definitely a revelatory experience to have the language to describe your neurodiversity at this late in your life. Yeah, late mid-thirties, mid-thirties, whatever euphemism you'd like to. I'm OK with saying I'm pretty close to middle age. And so, to suddenly have a descriptor for the way that you act or think very differently, for why I can be so impulsive, or why I have a hard time prioritizing the right things, why I get hyperfocused on things that don't matter to anyone else? I guess there's something kind of liberating about that. Maybe it relates to reconnecting with the Muslim heritage that I grew up with and kind of having a better understanding for some of the ethics values, culture, that I grew up with. But I don't know. I don't know. That one was, that's much more challenging for me. I was sort of in opposition to it for, you know, most of my life, almost all of my life, whereas this one was just kind of humming in the background, and I wasn't really aware of it until a few years ago. The thing that made me aware of it was shifting from being a freelance journalist, working on multiple and many articles every week and every month to being an author. You know, cat book notwithstanding, that's, you know, that's a book about a hundred different little cat stories. Whereas writing a single narrative over the course of 300 pages is a very different skill set, and it requires a different kind of focus. In the case of "Praying to the West," that was over four years. And that challenge for me is when I realized that "OK, I am mentally having a very difficult time with this." I had a sense that I was probably ADHD for a few years, but at the same time, I didn't want to tamper with the strengths of being a bit of an unfocused freelancer who is multitasking and has one novelty project that I can sort of chase down, be a little tiny master of this one topic, package it up, sent it, send it along, and then go become a tiny master of something else, and then something else. And so, I kind of thrived in that environment. Where I'm at now, I only have a few projects that I'm working on at once. And so, it's a different skill set and requires a different temperament, I think, as well. Eleni: Earlier you mentioned, I think you said dropping out of three degrees or not completing three degrees. Is that what you said? Omar: Kind of. Three colleges in three years. Eleni: Three colleges. OK, three colleges in three years.Omar: Yeah, the first two were, I did complete them. They were just like, you know, I got the certificate. Eleni: OK. Omar: I got the piece of paper. Eleni: So, two certificates and one degree dropout. Omar: One abandoned degree. Yes. Eleni: One abandoned degree. I like that better. OK. Despite that, I know that you've launched a university,Omar: Yes. Eleni: and you've taught some classes. Omar: Yes. Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about, I guess, perhaps, why that form of education wasn't right for you and how, I guess, that experience led to this origin story of founding your own...Omar: I would love to. Eleni: ...own university. Omar: So, yeah, I don't have a degree. I don't have a journalism degree. I don't have an English degree. I have, I have a certificate that says I completed two programs, one in screenwriting and the other one in film production. And I didn't make use of those until just a few years ago. Eleni: Mm hmm. I want to come back to that. Omar: Sure. Omar: So, in the early days of the pandemic, I very quickly saw my work as my freelance work dry up. I was also at the tail end of writing Praying to the West, so I had this master plan that after four years of writing this thing, I was going to start pitching stories again and lining up some articles. And I was kind of itching for it, honestly, like after holding this giant idea, this one idea in my head for so long, I mean, I felt like I was going to ball over for most of those years. I was excited to kind of slay deadlines, you know, chop, chop, chop. Like week after week again. And the pandemic was bubbling in the background, and I didn't really think anything of it because I'm an idiot. And then the pandemic touched down in Canada and Alberta. Everything went into lockdown. And then all these magazines and newspapers and venues just canceled the contracts. And just like that, I think it was about $6,000 of work, just kind of evaporated pretty much overnight. And I had no idea what I was going to do next because that was my plan. And so, I had actually applied for some jobs in communications, which is something I did not think I was going to do until my forties, at least. Nothing against that, but, you know, I was not really, I'm not someone who really desires an office job, as you can imagine. But I thought, "OK, well, this is a good safety net." And I didn't even get an invitation for a job interview. And I'm pretty sure the reason was that I didn't have a degree. You know, I had no formal education. So, whoever is at the end, the other side of that, and is filtering out candidates just filtered me out because I didn't meet that very basic threshold. So, I was speaking to my wife and I said, you know, and she knows that I've always been a little bit kind of insecure about not having a degree and that I've mulled the idea of going back to school. And so, I asked her if she would support me in going back to school, and she thought it was a decent idea. And that was my plan. And then the next day I was out for a run, and I had a better idea, which is what if I started my own school online? Because we've all moved our lives online. We're all using Zoom. I saw a lot of people who were taking workshops and seminars online. I have workshops and seminars. I've taught a couple of webinars. I can do that. I know a lot of writer friends who can do that. What if we all just packaged these together, gave it a funny name like Pandemic University School of Writing, and ran it as an experiment until, you know, basically until we can meet in person again and we can all those assignments magically reappear, which I genuinely thought would take about two months. And so, I, you know, I came back from my jog all sweaty and panting, and I was, you know, I was like, "Honey, how would you feel if I started an online school for writers? I think I can make us some money. It's going to cost about $2,000." I'd already calculated it in my head. Eleni: Wow, wow, wow .Then to math while running.Omar: Yeah, and so she was like, "OK," because she's always very supportive, you know, skeptical but supportive. But, you know, generally, like I do execute on my ideas, and you know, they're not colossal failures. So, yeah. And so, by the end of that day, I had a web designer, a pending registered company, I had a bunch of writers who were like, "Yes, I'll do it," a spreadsheet. Eleni: That is amazing.Omar: I had a spreadsheet ready. And then in ten days, it launched. And two and a half years later, Pandemic University is still a company. We are going into our, I think 85th class or course, over close to 4,000 people have taken our classes across the world from over 60 countries. I have two employees, so I like to call myself... Eleni: Super cool.Omar: ...the fake dean of Pandemic University. Here's the really funny thing. Eleni: No degree but now a dean.Omar: Well, here's the really funny thing. Since then, because I've gained a reputation as like, an online educator for journalism and creative writing, I've had multiple opportunities to, you know, invitations to apply for professor positions at actual universities. But some of them I had to just say, no, it's in another part of the country. I'm not interested. Some of them I was like, you know, I don't have a degree and I think I'm ineligible. And they're like, yes, you're right. But some of them actually did hire me. And so, now I teach at two real universities. I teach at the University of British Columbia and at the University of King's College in Dalhousie. Eleni: I love that. Omar: There you go. Eleni: What do you teach? Omar: I teach creative nonfiction at both of them. Eleni: Yeah. Eleni: Very cool. I love that it went from, like… Omar: Let's go back to school.Eleni: …zero to, like, you know, I have a spreadsheet and, like, ten writers lined up in, like, 12 hours, so. Back to that conversation we were going to have about the documentaries, I know that you did study film that you didn't necessarily love it in practice when you first started out. So, I'm wondering, like, how you kind of ended up circling back to it and like, you know, whether it felt different the second time around. Omar: Very different. Eleni: Yeah. And I'm like, OK, I would love to hear, too, like, did it feel different because you had since had that ADHD diagnosis, or would it be different for different reason? Omar: Different reasons. Reasons, reasons of lived experience, confidence and some expertise, I guess. So, the backstory to that is that I wanted to be a screenwriter and auteur. I mean, you know, however, how many kids also have that dream? But, you know, I grew up in a small town in northern Alberta. I really maybe was the only like, you know, movie cinephile that I knew and that I ever met. I got a job at a video store at like 15, I was managing it at like 17, and I just wanted to make movies. That was my dream. But, you know, I want to make scripted movies. I had no interest in documentaries. So, I went off to school and in Vancouver and very, very, very quickly learned that like, "Oh, there are innumerable people just like me and most of them are older than 17 years old and have much more interesting things to say about the human experience. And also, if I want to do this, I have to like really start at the bottom rung." So, I kind of, I very quickly felt like I'm not sure I want to start as like a production assistant and do this for five years. And I had, you know, I did have some film work. I was, just maybe this relates to "Amazing Cats," I worked as a camera trainee on "Air Bud 5." Do you know the movie "Air Bud"? About the super athlete dog, plays basketball, and then I think... Eleni: Oh, I think, yeah.Omar: …he plays volleyball maybe or baseball. I was a camera trainee on that. I got fired after three days. Like I was really bad at the job, really bad at it. And that was the moment where I was like, yeah, no, I need to find something else to do here. At that time, I had started freelancing some articles, music reviews and interviews, maybe some film reviews at that time for free, basically, for a local Vancouver magazine and doing it for clout, doing it for CDs and concert tickets at first. And then I realized, "Oh, I really actually enjoy this. I enjoy writing these stories, I enjoy the interview process," and maybe a lot of it has to do with like the quick returns on that. A film can take years and years and possibly have no returns, whereas an article you can work on it for a week, a month. And so, the, you know, the satisfaction of having a job well done, I guess, comes a lot faster. So, maybe this comes back to this seeking of novelty. But then, about four years ago or so, after having been a journalist at that point for 13 years and establish a pretty good reputation specifically as a narrative journalist, I had written an article about men's mental health and suicides in the oilsands and work camps here in northern Alberta. A lot of it actually based on research in Australia about suicides that are happening in relation to the isolated mining camps in Western Australia. And so, I'd written... Eleni: You call them FIFO workers.Omar: Yes, we call them that too. FIFO workers. Fly in, fly out, right? It's a really great way to make money and a terrible way to live. So, I'd written the story for BuzzFeed and my friend Dylan Rhys Howard, who's a filmmaker, unbeknownst to me, was working on a scripted short about a very similar theme, almost an identical theme. But, you know, it was a dramatic, scripted, short film that sort of imagined what that life was like for a man struggling to keep his marriage and himself together. And after reading my BuzzFeed feature, he reached out to me and was like, I think we should make a documentary about this subject. And we put together a proposal. I certainly didn't know anything about making a documentary, but I figured that it's pretty close to the same as writing a narrative feature only with a camera and more planning. It kind of was. And so that was my first documentary, "Digging in the Dirt." And then a couple of years later, Dylan came to me and said, I'd like you to make your own documentary now. So, I had a story, a personal story that I've wanted to turn into a film for quite some years. And that became "The Last Baron," which is also being repackaged as a feature film called "The Lebanese Burger Mafia." Eleni: That's so cool. Omar: Yeah. Eleni: I think it'd be interesting to hear if you have any advice, particularly for ADHD folks, about, you know, pursuing writing or filmmaking. Any big life lessons you want to share? Omar: Sure. I think the tendency to procrastinate, which is, you know, very, you know, very real for people with ADHD, I think it often comes from procrastinating work that isn't very meaningful to us. My advice is to forgive yourself for that and to try to find some aspect of that same work or new work that does challenge you or more importantly, is meaningful to you. And that kind of sparks that hyperfocus. And then when that focus strikes, don't waste that opportunity. Set aside the time you need. Make space for yourself. Whether that's asking your roommate or your partners to maybe vacate the house for an afternoon or to vacate it yourself, go down to a library or café or wherever you need to go and just start writing it or drawing it or planning it. If it's a collaborative project, send off those invitations and emails as quickly as they come to you. I think about the longer you put off an idea, the less likely it is to ever be realized. Sometimes planning and preparedness is just low-key procrastination. It's just an excuse to not actually do something. Eleni: Well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for being here. Omar: Thanks so much for having me. Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got that job. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today check out our show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at U.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot O-R-G slash workplace. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is a production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.
Not a good test-taker? Use your other strengths
Growing up, classes would drag on and on, mostly because my thoughts were elsewhere. I zoned in and out of lectures, entranced by other things, and only reeled back in by teachers calling on me to answer a question.“Andrea, please pay attention,” they would say sternly when I looked at them blankly. They knew I hadn’t heard the question in the first place.I was awful at taking tests. The hardest part was that I’d often run out of time and guess at the last minute, especially on multiple-choice exams. I graduated from high school with a poor GPA, and my confidence wasn’t too high. If this sounds like you, fret not — there’s a solution.Once I got to college, I channeled all my energy into trying to be more strategic. I reflected on the areas that I excelled in. During my first semester, I took three courses: public speaking, religion, and an intro to the university. All three required in-class exams, but they were all essays. And for the most part, I did relatively well. That’s when I realized that in the past, teachers had complimented my writing skills. Sometimes other students even came to me for help with essays. After that, I tried to only take college courses that involved writing. I looked through the website Rate My Professors to pick courses graded with essays rather than multiple-choice exams. This strategy worked for me because I was able to work at my own pace. I sometimes emailed professors before the start of the semester, asking for a copy of the syllabus. Many times, they’d send it over. I would then dedicate a few long days to getting most of my writing assignments done ahead of time. I edited these essays throughout the semester, so my final papers were well executed.This strategy was invaluable to my college experience, and I graduated with honors. Once, I even took seven courses at the same time. Applying these tips was the only way I was able to handle all the work. College taught me that flexibility and knowing yourself (as well as playing to your strengths) is the key to success.You’re smart — you just have to discover which areas you’re strong in and put your focus there when you can.
How’d You Get THAT Job?!How dyslexia and ADHD helped a first-time novelist
His young adult novel is a best-seller on Amazon. Find out how dyslexia and ADHD shaped Ryan Douglass’ unique approach to writing. His young adult novel, The Taking of Jake Livingston, is a best-seller on Amazon. In this episode, find out how dyslexia and ADHD shaped author Ryan Douglass’ unique approach to writing. Ryan also shares how being Black and LGBTQ impacts his learning and thinking differences.Listen in. Then:Visit Ryan’s website to see his other workLearn about more authors with dyslexia, like Henry Winkler and Octavia SpencerEpisode transcriptEleni: Hi, I'm Eleni. And I'm a user researcher. That means I spend my days talking with people with learning and thinking differences. People with challenges like ADHD, dyslexia, and more. I listen to what they have to say and how they feel. And I make sure that their experiences shape what we do at Understood.After speaking with literally hundreds of people and hearing literally thousands of stories, we realized how easy it is to feel alone. But we also realize that when people hear stories of others who learn and think differently, it can change everything. So we started to ask a simple question. Could it be that people find fulfilling jobs and careers not in spite of their difference, but because of them? We're making this podcast, "How'd You Get THAT job?!," because we want people with learning and thinking differences to have inspiring role models in jobs and careers who are amazing at what they do. And we want to help people see how to zone in on their own unique strengths at work.Today, we're talking to Ryan Douglass, the best-selling young adult fiction writer from Atlanta. We talked about his struggles with ADHD and dyslexia early on in his career, and how that experience helped bring his story to life.Ryan Douglass is a Black, queer writer from Atlanta, Georgia, with ADHD and dyslexia. He just published his first novel, which is a horror fiction best-seller on Amazon, which is super cool. That was my introduction for you. I would love you to share how you identify and how you would introduce yourself. Ryan: I'm Ryan Douglass. I am 26 years old, and I just came out with my first YA horror novel, "The Taking of Jake Livingston," which is out now through Penguin Young Readers. So I identify as Black, queer, non-binary, and a person with ADHD and dyslexia. I think the intro you gave was pretty good. I am a writer from Atlanta and I've been writing since I was very young, did a little bit of journalism when I was in college and got into that. And after college I was writing for a few digital magazines and also working on my first book. So I got my book deal a few years ago and the reception has been awesome. And yeah, that's right.Eleni: I think that often there's an association with people with dyslexia not necessarily being drawn to like reading or writing. And in your instance, it was something that you were really drawn to. So I would love to hear what it is about ADHD and/or dyslexia that you think makes you a good writer. Ryan: So for dyslexia, it's one of those things that has always been a challenge when it comes to reading. But I just love the written word so much that it's just something that I was able to rise to and not get over, but experience books the way that I do without judging myself too harshly. Because I probably don't read books in the way that most people read them. I do a lot of mood reading, which is when I just — it's when you pick up a book and you read a few pages, because you feel like you're in the headspace of that particular book. And then you pick up other books. So I'll usually read five books at a time, and that's also the ADHD coming in. Cause it's, I can't focus on one thing at a time, but....Eleni: Did you always like books, like even when you were a kid? Ryan: So I got really into picture books after reading a few Dr. Seuss books. And I started writing my own picture books and I was just like, I think the first thing that really caught my attention was the pictures. And then the rhyming and then the stories. And as I got older, I started reading chapter books and then I always read and I always felt like it was something that helped me communicate too. Cause I wasn't very vocal as a kid. So I started writing to express myself and it just never went away. It's just always been something that I've come back to express and escape.Eleni: Mood reading. I've never heard of that term. Is that something, is that a Ryan-ism or is that a term that is out there in the world?Ryan: Uh, I think it's out there. I actually heard that on Twitter. Someone was talking about mood reading and how people with ADHD mood read and that it shouldn't be stigmatized. And I looked into that and I was like, that's totally me. Mood readings. Eleni: I love that term. Ryan: Just read for the vibe.Eleni: Yeah, that's really cool. I'm into that. OK, OK. So you mentioned reading and ADHD and dyslexia. You haven't talked about the writing side yet. Ryan: I think that when it comes to writing, it actually helps me with the word play. Like sometimes I'll write sentences that don't immediately make sense, but the structure of them is interesting. And then when I rework them, I can make them make sense. And it has like a — it almost gives it a poetic style because the words are arranged in an interesting way. So I think that's how dyslexia has helped. ADHD has really helped with the way that I focus. I ran in like nine-hour bursts at a time because I get into hyperfocus. Then it's the only thing I can focus on.Obviously there are days when I feel like I can't write anything because I just get so distracted and then days when I'm just like so in the zone that nothing can rip me out of it. And I think that's helpful for productivity, even if it is hard to schedule your life around something like that.Eleni: Yeah. Um, so you mentioned hyperfocus. I would love to hear a little bit more about how that feels for you in your brain and in your body.Ryan: So it's two sides of a coin. Sometimes I just cannot focus long enough to finish a chapter. And then sometimes I get irritable when I'm in that zone and people try to bother me. I'm just like, why are you trying to bother me? Why don't you understand that I can't focus on anything right now? And people are just kind of like, what are you talking about? You can take a break. And I'm like, no, I can't.The thing about writing a book is that there are so many things that have to be active at one time. You're focusing on the one book, but you're focusing on character, story, plot, scene work, setting. And sometimes all these things are just playing in my head. It's like when you're watching a movie, you're focused on the movie, you know. A lot of stuff is happening, but you're looking at the movie and that's what happens in my brain. And when the movie is really clear to me, I just have to put it down. And if it's coming to me, I just can't break out of that. Eleni: So, you know, you mentioned that hyperfocus really actually helps you with productivity, and you've figured out that what works for you is doing these longer nine-hour stints and just really absorbing yourself in that hyperfocus and in the writing. What led up to that realization?Ryan: Over the years, I've just learned to honor the way that I work and focus on the fact that when work is getting done, that's the main objective. Because there's a lot of advice out there about how you're supposed to work. Not just right, but how you're supposed to work. How you're supposed to organize yourself.And I think that some of that structure is really helpful for like outlining, and that's the one thing that I do have trouble with because I'm such a vibes person that like, when I have to sit down and like be meticulous, that's where I'm like, oh God, I'll never get through this. But I think just over the years, I realized that I just have to do it the way that I do it and the way that I get things done, and try to make everything else that I have to do and all my life responsibilities work around that. Eleni: I know that you've had other stints, like in other types of work. And I'm interested in how ADHD or dyslexia has come up for you in other settings, in other environments. And if that also contributed to you realizing what works for you and what doesn't. Are there any particular moments in previous jobs that you think have led you to where you are now?Ryan: When I worked in retail, it was just a mess, especially at the beginning when I had to stock shelves, which seems like a really simple thing to do, stocking shelves. But I get lost in my head a lot. So there were moments when I was moving fast, and then there were moments when I would just get in my head and just go off on tangents and like outwardly I would be putting things on the shelf in slow motion. And I wouldn't even realize that until my supervisors would come up and say "You need more urgency, Ryan, you need to move." And they had to keep telling me because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm just spaced out. And that really made me realize, OK, this like fast-paced kind of environment is maybe not for me. Not because I can't work fast, but just because my brain was just doing that.Eleni: So when your boss at the time came up to you and said "You got to work with more urgency, what are you doing?" how did that make you feel? How did you respond, and how did you come to a place that you were like, well, actually this environment isn't for me, like this isn't about me. This is just about the environment around me.Ryan: Oh, gosh, it took me so long to come to that realization. I just felt so misunderstood, and it really sucks to feel that way. Like, even if you explained it, because you might be able to explain it, but you just feel like if they're not also dealing with something like ADHD, they're just not going to get it. Or if they don't know someone, like they're not close to someone who has it to where they're exposed to it. When you say it, it might become worse because they might make fun of you for it. It's not always something where people are like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me help you." You know, you don't always get the response that you want to get. So it's hard.Eleni: So Ryan, can you tell us more about the book? And also how perhaps how you wrote it is influenced by your ADHD and dyslexia, and also how you consume books yourself. Ryan: The book is called "The Taking of Jake Livingston," and it's about a teen medium, Jake Livingston, who can see the dead. And his sanity starts to unravel in his junior year because he's being followed by the ghost of a school shooter.And this ghost wants to possess his body. So it's a coming of age story about a boy going to some pretty dark places and hopefully coming out the other side with a renewed sense of self. So it's like a superhero story, but it's told through a horror format. The seeing-ghosts stuff is an allegory for being spaced out and for having ADHD, and specifically having your traumas be the things that are distracting you Eleni: Interesting.Ryan: I don't think when I went down to write it, I was thinking "I'm going to do an allegory for ADHD." I think it just came out naturally in the way that you see this character navigate the world. And you can tell that he's not plugged in to conversations, like in the classroom, at home. He's always somewhere else in his own mind. And I think that using that angle really allowed me to put the experience of a queer Black teenager who was neurodivergent on the page in a way that satisfied horror readers and added an interesting angle to it. Eleni: And it sounds like there's a little, like a few parallels with what we were talking about earlier in terms of you coming out of the other side and coming to a place where you really own all of your identities.Ryan: Yeah. So the story really is about finding the people who support you, and not allowing the people who don't support you to control your life and control what you do. And it's that journey that kind of gives Jake strength against his villain, who just kind of wants him to be so — he wants him to feel dispossessed of himself in a literal way, but also in an emotional and psychological way. So, his mission throughout the story — the villain's mission — is to basically ruin Jake's support system, bring him away from his family, bring him more anxiety as he goes into school. Cause he goes to like a mostly white prep school where he feels like he doesn't have a voice. So he's triggering that throughout the book to make Jake feel depressed, to make him feel like he shouldn't live in his own body anymore. And that's the point when the ghost can possess the vessel, according to the rules of the dead world in this story. So it was about how Jake has to fortify those things about himself and really believe in himself, because that's what unlocks his ultimate power to banish the evil. Eleni: Wow. I love that allegory. So you mentioned mood reading. Can you talk a little bit about how the way you read books influences your writing style? Ryan: Yeah. So it's very fast-paced. The chapters are pretty short, and they switch between the hero's perspective and the villain's perspective. Mostly because I can't focus on one character for too long. But it's stuff like this that's, like just ADHD, that when people read it, they're like, oh, this is intriguing. Oh, it's fast-paced. And it's just like me not being able to focus. And it's not that I — it is that I made these choices, but I just know that when I'm writing it, I know the things that I need to do to stay engaged and to finish the book.So it's fast-paced because my brain is fast-paced, you know, and that's how I read. I read fast and I write fast, and it's nonlinear because I just can't stay in one place. So I think that, yes, it's, it's craft and it's done with intention, but it's also done because that's how my brain works, and the way that my brain works is how it translates on the page. And some people read it and say, "This pacing drives me crazy. Like I'm being beat over the head with events, like every chapter." I read a review from a teacher who was like "Every chapter is over the top. Every chapter is dramatic. Something crazy happens in every chapter."You can't win everyone, but that's what I love about it. I like that it stimulates you. And I think that people with ADHD when they pick it up, they don't have to worry about reading long info dumps or reading a lot of exposition, because you're in it and you're just in it. And you can flip pages and it's not wasting any time. Eleni: You mentioned being black, queer, non-binary, someone with ADHD and dyslexia. I imagine that these identities intersect in like really interesting ways. And I wanted to share with you what I've heard through my research is that people with layered identities have like two different experiences. One of the experiences is OK, well I'm already othered. I'm already on the margins. So it actually makes it easier to embrace all of the differences. And the other side of that, which I hear a lot, particularly from Black folks, is I'm already struggling to fit in to, you know, a white-dominant work culture and like, feels like there are more things stacked up against them. And I would love to hear like how intersectionality shows up for you. You know, myself, I'm like someone in my thirties and I'm looking at the TikTok generation and I'm like, wow. Like, it feels like you really are owning all of your identities. And as you said, you just state them in a very matter-of-fact way. And like I'm a little bit envious. It took me a really long time to like embrace my queer identity. And it's really amazing to see you being like, so open about all of these identities. So, I'm particularly interested in how they intersect, you know, what it is like to be Black, queer, and someone with a learning difference. Ryan: I was able to say that I was gay in my early twenties when I went to college just because I was surrounded by a supportive environment. As for my blackness, that was a whole different thing. And I think it intersects in the sense that when you're Black and gay, you're dealing with like discrimination from your own community. I grew up in a really religious community and being gay was not something that was celebrated. I definitely think the pivotal moment was being around people who understood that we exist and that we're not going anywhere, and realizing that you don't have to be around people who make you feel like you can't be your true self. And I think that's a hard thing to let go of for Black people, especially because we're like, community is so important for us. And we have community spaces because we have to convene and we have to stick together in the face of white supremacy. But when you are gay, you know, there's like this whole language about the masculinity of Black men and how we have to be masculine. And I'm just not. And it's like, where do you belong? Do you belong in the Black community? Do you want to be in the gay community? It's that feeling of just not having anywhere to go. So I just have had to find other queer Black friends who are, maybe neurodivergent, who would just understand what it means to move through the world in the way that I do and just rely on those friendships.Eleni: Totally. So how did you come to the point where you could be so comfortable with who you are? Ryan: On my journey to accepting myself, I just had to do a lot of research, first of all, and come to understand on my own why I didn't really fit in. And find other people like online or in real life who also didn't feel like they fit in, and just figure out what to do from there.And I really do think that at the beginning of that journey, it's about accepting yourself, knowing what you can change, knowing what you can't change, not stressing over things you can't change. And just like realizing that this is also a part of me. And all of it is part of me. This might sound weird, but I think that Twitter is a really helpful resource for finding friends and like other people who are just unapologetically Black, gay, have thinking differences, have disabilities. Around 2016, when we had — that's when the big social justice wave was starting — I got on Twitter and I started following activists. And just seeing the way that they talk about their identities, that they talk about their disabilities, or just the way that they own that and the way that they claimed it and spoke about it and spoke about the movement really inspired me. So the online community, when you're isolated, can be a lifesaver. Eleni: Definitely. So what would you say to the young people listening? What advice would you give them if they were in the same situation?Ryan: It's really just about communicating, owning your own flaws and your own behaviors in a way that kind of makes people understand it. And I think that when I was in those positions where I felt like I was doing something wrong, it made me choke up and it made me feel like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be fired. Or my gosh, I'm going to get an F. And I just was like, I'm a failure. And then it went on rotation in my brain. Oh gosh, I just suck.But that's not the case. And there are ways to kind of explain what's going on. And even if they don't understand it, at least you try to explain it. And I think that's something that I wish I knew, and I wish I knew how to sort of say to myself at first — it's OK that this is happening. Just try to express it rather than just think, oh, they're right. I suck at this job. Cause that's when your mind starts going and you just become your own worst enemy. Eleni: And it's interesting if you state it in a matter-of-fact way, it leaves it open to the other person to ask more questions if they want to ask more questions and show curiosity and understand you, you know, like a two-way street. If you're feeling misunderstood, that's probably because someone hasn't made the effort to understand, right?Ryan: Yeah. It's so much easier for me, not just with ADHD, but with all of my identities, to just state them and not overexplain. Because I know that people are not going to understand necessarily. But it's really not my responsibility, because there's so much info out there and anyone can look up things if they want to know. So I just am who I am and I say who I am, and it's up to everyone else to do the research. Eleni: So you've written your first book. What do you think is next for you? Ryan: So I'm working on several different projects. I think that the ADHD kind of becomes a detriment when it comes to the drafting process or like figuring out what I'm interested in enough about the world to translate it into a book and sustain a full narrative. And I'm actually, I think I might actually be a poet. I really had these dreams of having my stories put on screen. So that's kind of why I got into writing, because it's easier to put a novel on screen than it is to put poetry on screen. But I feel like I want to be able to bounce between genres and I don't always want to write young adult horror.But I'm still kind of learning my style. And some people want me to write a sequel to Jake Livingston, but I feel like I, uh, my ADHD will not allow me to write any more of that because I was like done with it. I was like, I focused on this for too long now. I just want to, I want to be free. Eleni: Awesome. Thanks for spending this time with me, Ryan. It was so fun to have a conversation with you. Ryan: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.Eleni: This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.
How to choose the right job for your teen’s strengths
Finding work that empowers your teen after high school is important. But the right vocation is never one-size-fits-all. Your teen’s particular learning and thinking differences may make some jobs a better fit than others. Here are some things for you and your teen to think about as you look for jobs that play to their strengths.If your teen has an Individualized Education Program (IEP), it should include a transition plan. One purpose of this plan is to help your teen clarify their strengths, challenges, and interests and think about how those will apply to work. Your teen will want to explore the topics below with their IEP team.Try vocational testing.Vocational testing can identify your teen’s skills, strengths, and weaknesses. It can also help them discover what fields and roles might interest him. These assessments take into account your teen’s long-term goals in order to find the best fit.If your teen has an IEP, vocational testing should be part of their transition plan. If they don’t have an IEP, their high school or a local community college may offer this kind of testing.Help your teen pinpoint their passions and interests.Ask your teen to look at, say, five different job possibilities. Which would they like to pursue, and why? If your teen loves food and cooking, the culinary field could be a good fit. If they tinker with mechanical projects for fun, there are many trades that could use your teen’s “engineering genius.”Understand the work setting.Your teen will want to choose a work environment that matches their needs. For instance, a teen with ADHD may have had trouble sitting still in school. But they might be engaged when working at a computer. A job in computer technology might be worth a try, especially if it combines computer work with walking around an office.“If your teen loves food and cooking, the culinary field could be a good fit. If they tinker with mechanical projects for fun, there are many trades that could use your teen’s ‘engineering genius.’” Consider size.A small “mom and pop” company with fewer employees might appear like a comfortable fit at first glance. But a larger firm may work better for someone with learning and thinking differences. Employees at big companies tend to specialize, often working on one job at a time rather than floating through different tasks. That would allow your teen to find and focus on a task they enjoy and are good at.Know the full range of a trade.Your teen may want to ask someone working in their field of interest about the full range of jobs and tasks it offers. If your teen has an IEP transition plan, they may be able to gather this information from employers in your community.Research the requirements.Most trades and careers require certifications, an associate’s degree, or an apprenticeship. Your teen will want to understand what is required and decide if they’re willing to work toward that. Be sure there are openings for those jobs as well. There’s no sense being trained for a field with little or no work. The U.S. Department of Labor’s Occupation Finder offers helpful comparisons of growing fields.If your teen has learning and thinking differences, it’s important for both you and your child to be realistic about job prospects. Taking small, strategic steps can keep them from feeling overwhelmed.Start by helping your teen shadow people working in a trade they are excited about. Then, they can find an entry-level position that fits their abilities. Doing a good job will help your teen grow and advance, with support from their supervisors.
ADHD Aha!Rejection sensitivity, ADHD drain, and the power of failure (Weston’s story)
Getting diagnosed with ADHD (along with anxiety and panic disorder) helped Weston be kinder to himself and accept his ADHD brain for how it works. “The cup that is draining.” That’s how musician and content creator Weston Gardner describes ADHD’s effect on him. He’d spent his whole life feeling like he couldn’t do things that came so easily to everyone else. Weston was at his wits’ end. Getting diagnosed with ADHD (along with anxiety and panic disorder) has helped him be kinder to himself and accept his ADHD brain for how it works. Weston is a musician and content creator who goes by Arcane Anthems (@arcaneanthems). His music sets the scene for podcasts, Twitch streams, tabletop games like Dungeons & Dragons, and more. This episode is guest hosted by ADHD Aha! alum Cate Osborn. Cate, aka @catieosaurus, is a content creator and co-host of Catie and Erik’s Infinite Quest podcast. Listen to this week’s episode to hear Cate and Weston talk about ADHD and gaming, rejection sensitivity, and the power of failure.Related resourcesADHD and rejection sensitive dysphoriaEmotional sunburn: What rejection sensitivity feels likeIn It podcast: The benefits of gaming for kidsEpisode transcriptLaura: Hey, listeners! There's good news for me and also good news for you. I'm going on an extended vacation. And we thought that would be a great opportunity to invite one of our favorite ADHD podcasters, Cate Osborn, to fill in for me for a couple of episodes. You may remember Cate, aka Catieosaurus, from our episodes on ADHD and hormones and ADHD and sex. Cate is a content creator and host of the podcast "Catie and Erik's Infinite Quest." You're in good hands with Cate. So enjoy, and I'll be back soon.Weston: Once I realized that embracing who it was that I was, embracing the limitations that I had, I found that vulnerability, that clarity, to be one of the greatest strengths.Cate: Hi, everybody, and welcome back to "ADHD Aha!" I'm not Laura. My name is Cate Osborn. I go by Catieosaurus on all the corners of the internet where I am a full time content creator focused on neurodivergent intimacy and accessibility and gaming. Your wonderful host, Laura, is currently on sabbatical.And so the kind folks at Understood.org have asked me to step in to her very large and impressive shoes and guest host for this episode. And I'm so honored and excited to be here with my very first guest, Weston Gardner, aka Arcane Anthems. Weston is a musician and a composer with ADHD. Weston, tell the people what you do.Weston: Hey everyone. I run Arcane Anthems, which is kind of my online persona. I write tabletop music for Dungeons & Dragons games, for podcasts, for Twitch streams, and YouTube channels, and all of the above. So I get to work in all sorts of different styles and genres, and I get to constantly research new stuff. It's very good for somebody with ADHD like me, who gets to consistently change up what they're doing, learn something new, and use my skills in like new and unique ways all the time.Cate: So I'm so curious, and I love this because I feel like we have been to so many conventions together. But I've never gotten a chance to just ask you about what you do. So this is my shot and I'm taking it.Weston: Bring it on. Hit me.Cate: First, for all of the lovely listeners at home, I feel like we should spend at least a couple of minutes talking about what tabletop role-playing games are, and why they might be important to somebody with ADHD. Do you want to take that one?Weston: I always tell people it's the feeling of watching an epic fantasy movie, but it's — you're in it and it's your own. And it's you and your friends.Cate: That's a great way to do that.Weston: That's the way I like to describe it. Because in my musical life, I always describe what I do and the importance of what I do when describing it to movies or to video games, right? The importance of having music in a movie is the same as, you know, having it in a video game or having an any form of media, where it drives the emotion of the storyline.And so what I do is I support that role playing around a table you and your friends are sitting around. You have somebody who's kind of in charge of the world. And you have everybody else who's in charge of their own character and their own personas. And you create a story together within the confines of whatever rule system you're using.The one that everybody knows is Dungeons & Dragons, right? So that's just a rules system. That's just the physics of the world and how the game runs. But the story you're telling is the really important part.Cate: One of the things that is fascinating about that entire sort of genre of entertainment is that there is a lot of evidence and a lot of studies that are coming out about the benefits of playing games like Dungeons & Dragons or other tabletop role-playing games on the neurodivergent brain, on the ADHD brain. They can be especially helpful for things like processing executive dysfunction and the learning how to support yourself and developing social skills and all that kind of stuff.So there's a lot of like gameplay elements, but they can also be incredibly therapeutically beneficial, which I think is like really cool. And so that's why I'm so excited that you're here with me because we get to talk about creativity today.But first, before we do that, Laura would be so very sad and disappointed if I didn't ask you to talk a little bit about your journey to an ADHD diagnosis, and what your ADHD "aha" moment was when it came to sort of accepting that and learning about your brain for the first time.Weston: Well, mine starts very much with me in school. I think those are my earliest memories of me going to school and feeling like somebody who understood concepts very well, who tried very hard, who was among the kids who were, quote unquote, like more advanced. But I always felt something was missing. I just didn't understand how everybody else could do things that I couldn't do.I would write one paragraph and they would have four pages done. And it was this gaping hole in my learning, and it plagued me. It was actually one of the reasons that I dropped out of college. It was like there was a — like I was drinking out of a glass that had a hole in the bottom. And I could never really fill it up enough to satisfy my thirst or to keep up.And it wasn't until I had a breakdown in my early 30s — between work and being a dad and being a husband and managing all these other things — that I realized, you know, something isn't right. Something about me is different enough that things that seem normal to everyday people aren't normal to me, to everyday Weston, right? And so I — luckily the job that I was at had some really great kind of social services type benefits, right? And I was able to see a therapist. And I was able to see a psychiatrist. And they very quickly diagnosed me with ADHD and anxiety and panic disorder.And I — like what a pivotal, monumental moment in my life to hear those words and to hear that validation. And the change that it's had in my life, and the change that it's had in my family's life and my extended family's lives, in my siblings' lives, has been so important to understanding that our brains just work differently. And all of a sudden, all the shame and all the guilt that I felt growing up for not being able to catch up, not being able to keep up, was gone.Now for me, I know that I work differently. I know that I need to do things in a way that is going to support these conditions that I have, the way that my brain works, right? As opposed to constantly fighting against them, constantly feeling that I'm lazy or that I'm stupid or that I'm incapable of doing normal things. It has opened up my eyes to a world of understanding and acceptance and compassion. And I'm just so grateful for those diagnoses, honestly.Cate: Oh, my gosh. I love that you were talking about the cup that is draining. That's such just like a poignant image that just is like, oh, my gosh, I feel that exactly. So when we talk about that sort of like ADHD drain, I guess we'll call it for right now. When you started deciding that what you wanted to do was music, what you wanted to do was this like career based in creativity and creation and that kind of stuff. Did you find that that sort of drain went away?Weston: I was in the music industry for about 10 years, making music, playing shows in a band. And that did help me a lot to recognize that that kind of structurelessness and self-managing worked well for me. And then I got into a kind of a corporate retail job where I had to be on during these specific hours. And I had to do these certain things. And I needed to be there on time. And I — there was all these "hads" and "shoulds," and all these things that I needed to fit into somebody else created.And that I think was the biggest problem — was my brain with ADHD doesn't work like everyone else's brain works. And so when you're trying to shove me into a box that somebody else created, it's going to be extremely uncomfortable for me. And it's not going to work, especially if I don't understand why I don't fit. And I'm trying to remember the initial question. Uh, yes.Cate: That was OK. That was exactly, yeah.Weston: Moving into music, and in particular into social media, into music creation, into connecting with people, I have found that being able to use an expertise and a passion of mine, and working when I can work. And then also recognizing that there are going to be times when I will sit down and not be able to do the thing that I've been doing for 20 years. And that it's not because I'm dumb. It's not because I'm stupid. It's not even because it's a creative block that people talk about all the time.It's because my brain is just like, not today. There's no dopamine here today for you. You will not be as creative today. You will not be able to do these things. And instead of me saying, "No, I will do them!" and pushing through and blaming myself and getting angry, I'm like, OK, well, what can I do today?Cate: So I am a content creator, and you are a content creator. And I think the most dangerous and stressful part of being a content creator is that there is an expectation that you make content like all the time, constantly. So how do you balance that? How do you balance the kind of like, OK, I have to make the content. I have to make the video, you know, to bring people over to my music, to my creative process. But also my brain is screaming at me, you know, not today, not today. You know, I got nothing to give. Like, what do you do on those days?Weston: I have a lot of coping mechanisms and techniques that I've used so that I can do those things. And there will be days when you just cannot, you know, where it is a zero. And it's not even that there isn't something that you could do. It's that you can't figure out what that is. So that pushed aside, most of the time I — there's this idea in product development called a minimum viable product. So I like to say, OK, what is the very smallest teeniest, tiniest thing that I can do to check a box today and maybe like kick-start my brain?It's like one of those old cars where you have to kind of turn turn the rotor on them, right? Maybe doing this small little thing and accomplishing this tiny little thing will kick-start the rest of it. So I have these minimum viable products. And with content creation, sometimes it's just using an audio and recording like a three-second video.Sometimes it won't even be work related. Sometimes it'll be, oh, I'm just going to walk outside. And the reason I say that is that there's all these things in my life that I know that my brain needs. I need to move my body. I need to see the sunshine. I need to make sure that I'm drinking and eating food. There's all this kind of basic needs that as somebody with ADHD, it's very easy to neglect those things. Maybe I'll just put that one thing away. Maybe I'll gather my dishes from my desk. And maybe today is just a gather dishes from the desk day and move it to the kitchen day. And that's what I did that day.Cate: I did not come here to be attacked in this way. How dare you, sir?Weston: So I very visibly see those tiny things as victories, because I'm not fighting the same battles as neurotypical people. I need to recognize that me doing that small thing is a victory, just like somebody else working, you know, all day on a thing is a victory for them.Cate: One of the things that I'm so curious about, and it almost sounds silly when I say it out loud, but I think you're really hitting on this idea of how recognizing your needs, honoring them as a neurodivergent person, helps to sort of fill that cup. And then from that cup you kind of can draw your creativity. You can draw that sort of like process of making and composing and being a musician and all of those like really exciting things that you do. So that's not a question. But I just wanted to say that because I think that's neat. Good job, Weston. You're going a great job.Weston: The idea of shame, the idea of failing, the idea of all those things is a very powerful trend in neurodivergent people. And for me personally, it goes deep into this idea of that rejection dysphoria that at least I experience extremely heavily. The idea that you will fail people, will view you as a failure, and it will not be OK if you let people know that you're not all right.And the best way that I have found to remove the power that failure has over me is to understand that for me, failing is a way that I become better. Failing is a way that I grow. And it doesn't mean that my rejection euphoria goes away — dysphoria goes away. Can you imagine? Rejection euphoria? No.Cate: I feel like, yeah. Reject me!Weston: Reject me! Those emotions are something that is almost like a learned behavior with people who are neurodivergent. And unpacking those things in a personal, professional relationship sense and becoming very just like open about the ways that you feel with people, has been very vital to me to overcoming the spiraling that can happen when you begin to feel those emotions.Cate: I love that you say that because I'm also fascinated in how that shows up in your work. Because I think one of the really cool things — and for listeners who may not know, one of the things that Weston does is that all of Weston's music is royalty free. And it's available for the community to use in their tabletop games and their YouTube videos and their actual plays, like all of those different things.I've always really admired that you do that, because it really feels like this act of giving, and this act of, you know, creation for sort of the good of the community. And giving people access to stuff that can sometimes be, you know, very like cost prohibitive. Is some of that emotional involvement, does that have to do with like your willingness to sort of like give to the community like and back in that way, if that question makes any sense? It made perfect sense in my head, did it make sense out loud?Weston: Yes, it really makes a lot of sense. Cate: And I was like, I don't know what I'm talking about.Weston: I have never been asked that question in that way before in this context, and it's my way — oh, gosh. OK. Feel the emotions. It's my way of being there for people who.... Growing up, I felt very lonely.Cate: Yeah.Weston: And for me, it's very important that I help other people to know that they are not alone. That they have support. That there is somebody there who is looking out for them in kind of a mentor-type sense. I didn't have that growing up. All my music stuff. It always felt very lonely, stumbling through and failing over and over, and not understanding why I can't do the same things as everybody else.And this is definitely a response to wanting to be there for people. And I can't be there for hundreds of thousands of people. That's not something that I personally can do. But I devised this method of saying, yeah, but maybe my music can. Maybe I can use this to make other people's games better or other people's experiences better, other people's entertainment more interesting. Maybe I can be the person there who can provide something of value.They can be creative and just take this and use it and immediately see an improvement in whatever it is that they're using it for. And that definitely comes from a place of me feeling I don't want other people to feel alone. I don't want other people to feel abandoned. I don't want other people to feel to their own devices that no one is looking out for them and that they will fail and fail and fail over and over and over again needlessly.Cate: I love that so much. Also, you said this like beautiful, eloquent speech. And all that I was thinking the whole time is like, yeah, me too. But I just talk about sex instead of, like you said, with music. And I talk about talking about relationships on the internet. But like, I feel the exact same way.Weston: I love that. I'm so enamored and grateful for the things that I have learned from the videos that you have done. And being able to reframe my brain around intimacy, around relationships in the context of neurodivergency. And if we dive into relationships here, that's such an important aspect to why I was able to get diagnosed, is that I sat down on the couch with my wife Terena, and I told her all these things that were impossibly difficult for me.And I broke down and I said, "I am at my wits' end doing the bare minimum right now." And I was sobbing. When that realization hit me — because I didn't realize the amount of energy until I verbalized it, that I was pouring into being a dad and being a husband and doing the things you need to do in a relationship. And she really saw me in that moment. And all credit to her was able to say, "Yeah, I see that now. Let's get you help."Cate: Well, and I think that goes back to that sort of shame component, and that kind of loneliness component of like — for me it was that kind of like, you want to do a good job, You want to be the exemplary husband, partner, wife, employee, whatever. And so there's that, like the cup is draining, like you said earlier, straining and draining and draining. And you're trying to keep up. But at some point, like, it just becomes untenable.Like you can't keep going in the way that you've been going, especially, I think, without a diagnosis and without that sort of context of understanding your own brain. And it's, of course, there's such high rates of burnout. Of course there's such high rates of struggles with intimacy and relationships and that kind of stuff in the neurodivergent community — because of that, you know, wanting to keep up appearances of everything is fine.Weston: For me, that was the complete removal of the mask that we use to hide how much effort is behind the scenes. And Terena saw the cost and saw the inner workings and saw that everything was actually on fire, and everything is not fine. And I think that's where the compassion comes in. Having compassion for you and for yourself, and recognizing that the amount of energy that you pour into your every day is X times the amount of energy that some people — they don't have to do.Cate: You've spoken so eloquently about just the experience of being a neurodivergent partner. What advice do you have for a partner who is maybe coming to terms with their diagnosis, or in the process of getting one, and is struggling to really like open up and drop that mask, like you said, and discuss things with your partner?Weston: Being able to sit down and open up is a key part, I think, of any relationship. And if you and your partner are struggling with that, then that is where I feel like you need to start. Diving into the entirety of mental illness and all of that stuff might be a bit overwhelming if you haven't developed a relationship of open communication and vulnerability.And I think that we need to give space for people who may have had different upbringings, may have had different relationships with behavior and struggle and culture, and all these different things that play into mental health. And not everybody is going to be as receptive to those conversations. And it's not that they won't eventually be.Cate: You talked earlier about, you know, struggling in school and then sort of finding your way to music and that kind of thing. What advice do you have for the ADHD kids out there who might be interested in a career in music or composition, who might be, you know, struggling in school? Like, what would you say, a little, you know, I don't know, 10-year-old Weston.Weston: I would say to start. That is the most powerful tool that I think anybody can have. And especially nowadays, being able to make music anywhere with anything. If you have a phone, you can make music. A friend of mine who for the past three years, very talented musician, has just been making music on his phone, on his literal — the thing is like a 5-year-old iPhone — he has been making music on.Do not see the lack in your resources. See that there is an abundance of opportunity. And that music is all around you, even if it's just you writing out lyrics, even if it's just you expressing a melody. I always tell people that as you start to do things and as you start to tell other people that you're doing things, opportunities happen.And I think that that is why social media has worked so well for all sorts of people, of all sorts of different passions, is that you are consistently telling people about what you love to do and about the things that are important to you. And that opens up this world of opportunity. So for anybody who is just starting out in music, just make music. Do not expect it to sound like a top producing, you know, engineer. Like, that is not what's important right now.Try and write 100 bad songs. When you write a hundred bad songs, you are increasing your capability to write good things. And as a kid, because of that rejection dysphoria, I constantly wanted to write only good things. And so it would stop me from writing. It would stop me from showing people things I was working on. Try really, really hard to overcome that.Write and leave it, write and leave it, write and leave it. Because it will never be the thing that you think is going to take off that takes off. Write and write and write. And talk about it and talk about it and talk about it. Learn to speak about the things that you love to do.Cate: Incredible advice from Weston Gardner, aka Arcane Anthems. Weston, thank you so much for being here with me today. This has been incredible. It has been such an honor to get to speak with you. Can you please tell the kind people where to find you?Weston: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So online. I am Arcane Anthems everywhere. You can find me on Instagram or what's left of Twitter or Threads or YouTube. I try and have a very wide brush. If you want to support my music and get it firsthand and get kind of some behind-the-scenes stuff and all the things you can find me on Patreon. Arcane Anthems.Cate: And where can they listen to your music?Weston: Oh, that's, that's all over the place. That's all over streaming. Are you on Spotify? Are you on Apple Music? Are you a Amazon person? Are you on YouTube? Are you on TikTok? You can you can follow me over there. So I try to make music as accessible as possible. If you want to download all my free music, which is over like 80 songs at this point, you can go to my Patreon and you can download those tunes for whatever it is that you're creating. Also, my DMs are up and if you want to shoot me a, shoot me a message. And I love chatting with people. I do that all day long.Cate: And thank you so much for being here. And thanks for being so honest and lovely and wonderful and amazing.Weston: I appreciate that.Cate: And I have been your guest host, Cate Osborn, aka Catieosaurus. You can find me on YouTube. You can find me on Twitter. You can find me on TikTok, Bluesky, Threads, pretty much wherever there's a Catieosaurus to be found, that's me. I'm also the co-host of "Catie and Erik's Infinite Quest: An ADHD Adventure." We talk about living life as neurodivergent adults, and occasionally we play TTRPGs. So if you want to check me out there, you absolutely can. And if you want to get in touch with me, you can head on over to Catieosaurus.com.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@Understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood as a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi, everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.
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