451 results for: "social skills"

FAQs about social skills groups

Some kids learn to say “please” and “thank you” and to wait their turn by watching others. But kids with learning and thinking differences might not pick up on common social interactions simply through observation. If your child struggles with social skills, a social skills group could help.Social skills include far more than the ability to communicate with other people. They’re crucial to making friends, succeeding in school and, later in life, getting and keeping a job. Here are answers to common questions parents have about social skills groups.What are social skills groups?Social skills groups are small groups (typically two to eight kids) led by an adult who teaches the kids how to interact appropriately with others their age. They can help kids learn conversational, friendship, and problem-solving skills. They can also be useful in teaching kids to control their emotions and understand other people’s perspectives.A school psychologist or a speech therapist might lead a social skills group in school. Groups are also offered privately, outside of school.How do social skills groups work?Maybe the kids in the group have trouble starting a conversation — or keeping one going. Or perhaps they don’t understand body language. The group facilitator leads kids through exercises to learn the skills needed to deal with whatever social challenge they’re facing. Most of these meetings include a chance for kids to role-play or practice social skills — and to get feedback on how they’re doing.What are the benefits of social skills groups?Kids can learn important skills that they’ll use the rest of their lives. This includes learning how to:Greet othersStart a conversationRespond to othersMaintain a conversationShare and take turnsAsk for helpWhich children can benefit most from social skills groups?Social skills groups are best for kids who aren’t developing social skills as quickly as their peers. This may include kids with ADHD, who can be too active and physical in their play. It may include kids with nonverbal learning disabilities, who may have trouble picking up on social cues, like body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions. It may also include kids with social communication challenges and other types of learning or behavior issues.When searching for a social skills group for your child, look for one that’s geared for your child’s specific issues (for example, ADHD) and meant for kids who are around your child’s age.What if I can’t find a social skills group in my area?If a social skills group isn’t available in your area, or if there aren’t groups targeted to your child’s needs, there are other ways to help your child learn social skills. You can have your child work with a school counselor or other therapist who can use role-playing and model appropriate social behaviors for your child.There are software programs you can use at home to help build your child’s social skills. And you can develop silent signals to cue your child to remember to say “thank you” or to use a more appropriate tone of voice in social situations.You also may want to encourage your child to have one-on-one playdates at your home. Many children do better one-on-one than they do in groups, and you can help keep the playdate running smoothly at home.

Why summer camp has lasting benefits for neurodivergent kids

Summer camp is a tradition for many kids. But does summer camp work for kids who learn differently? Summer camp has become a tradition for many kids. But does summer camp work for kids who learn differently? How do you find the right camp that can support your child’s needs? Will your child make friends?In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra get answers from the ultimate expert: a camp director. Audrey Monke has been running a summer camp for 37 years. She’s also the author of Happy Campers: 9 Summer Camp Secrets for Raising Kids Who Become Thriving Adults. Hear Audrey’s advice on summer camp — from how to choose one to what to tell camps about your child. Learn how camps help kids develop social skills, build relationships, and gain independence. Plus, Audrey shares tips on how to bring the magic of summer camp into your home.Related resources What is social emotional-learning?Sleepaway camp checklist: How to get your child readyAnd check out Audrey’s book: Happy Campers: 9 Summer Camp Secrets for Raising Kids Who Become Thriving AdultsEpisode transcriptAmanda: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It." On this podcast, we offer perspective, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences. We talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood, and I'm a parent to kids who learn differently.Gretchen: And I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And today we're talking about summer camp.Amanda: Sending kids to summer camp and especially overnight camp can be kind of daunting, especially for parents of kids who are neurodivergent. So how do you find the right camp?Gretchen: And what if the camp can't meet the needs of your child?Amanda: And is it really worth it to send them off when it could be so much easier, probably cheaper, and certainly less nerve-racking to keep them at home or with a caregiver nearby?Gretchen: With us today to get into all of this is Audrey Monke.Amanda: Audrey is the host of the Sunshine Parenting Podcast and the author of "Happy Campers: 9 Summer Camp Secrets for Raising Kids Who Become Thriving Adults."Gretchen: In her book, she shares the many insights she's gained — as a researcher and as a camp director for 37 years — on how we at home can help our kids develop social skills and become happy, healthy, independent, and responsible.Amanda: Audrey, welcome to "In It."Audrey: Thank you. I'm happy to be here.Gretchen: We are so happy to have you here.Amanda: So my big question for you before we get into the nitty-gritty of this is what's great about summer camp and what does it have to offer that we can't give kids through other kinds of experiences?Audrey: The unique contribution and this is, you know, there hasn't been well, there's been some research on summer camps, but recently there's been a lot more out of the University of Utah. They did a longitudinal study retrospectively asking people "What is it that your camp experiences contributed to your development?" And the number one thing that came out from everything was relationship skills. Relational skills and the actual relationships and friendships that are formed. And I think a lot of people could say, oh, well, kids form relationships everywhere — on their sports teams and at school.But the unique thing about camp is that for traditional camps, so ones that aren't focused on a specific like soccer camp or something like that, our main focus is on the community, the friendships, the social-emotional skills. So we are not at all concerned with how a kid is doing in math or how they're doing dribbling a soccer ball. Our focus and what our counselors and what we are trained and working on all the time is the relationship stuff, the connection, and the fun. So it's a unique thing in that way in that our goal, we sit down and we talk about what we're doing. Our goals for our campers at my camp are to have fun, make friends, and grow.Amanda: I think you just explained something that I didn't understand about my own childhood, to be honest. I went to summer camp every summer from the time I was 8, and I went to overnight camp. And all year long I looked forward to going to summer camp. It was like I missed it throughout the year. And it didn't even occur to me till now that that's where I felt most comfortable. Do you think the same bonds are built through overnight and day camps?Audrey: I definitely think they can be. It just depends on the program and what the focus is. So I would just say find out what the goals and philosophy are of the program. There are some phenomenal day camp programs that are very focused on building community and the friendships, skills, and all the social-emotional stuff. I have a special affinity for the overnight experience because of the immersion piece of it and the independent piece of it. I think it's pretty magical thing for young kids to have this time away from parents to really discover themselves. You talked about feeling like you loved your camp and you felt at home there. We hear that a lot from campers. We hear that they feel like they can be their best self at camp. And I think part of that is as we're so well-meaning as parents, we love our kids, and we want to be there with them for everything they do because it's so fun to watch them learn new things and all this.But a lot of the growth that our kids will experience in life happens away from us. You know that look that even little kids, well, you know, they're about to do something new and they turn around to look to see what they're — what the expression is. Is this safe? Should I try this? And even when we're not trying, our expression sometime is like, oh my gosh, that looks scary. I don't know if I want to do that. So there's just this part. And it's not just camp, it's also allowing our kids with other mentors and adults and clubs letting them grow their wings sometimes without us. So that's another just aspect of this, it's a lot of people don't even consider sending their kids to overnight camp. It's just way too scary, daunting. You know, they just aren't comfortable with it, because that's letting other people be in charge of your children. And it is, it's a huge trust leap. But what parents see after their child comes home is this growth and this confidence and maturity that is because they weren't there with them.Gretchen: So that's such a good point. And I think what you're saying is definitely going to help some families take that leap of faith and send their kids to overnight camp. But I'm wondering about the families in our community, the families with kids who learn differently. They're probably a little worried about sending their kids off to camp because the camp just might not get them, or the camp might not be able to support them. So I'm wondering what you can say to help us feel more comfortable sending our kids off to camp?Audrey: I mean, I'm not going to say "Feel comfortable sending your kid anywhere." Because I don't. I don't. I think that if it's there, if you've done the research, so I would get references from other families with maybe kids with similar things going on, just to see how the camp was. I would really, really say, talk to the camp, talk to the camp directors, talk to whoever's in charge of placing kids, all of that. I think sometimes parents think, well, I don't really want to tell the school or the camp that my child has this issue or this thing going on because I don't want them to be labeled or treated differently or anything like that. What we see from our perspective is it's a big gift to us to get the information ahead of time because then we know, oh, OK, well, we have this counselor who's really experienced — has worked with these other kids. This could be a really successful group for this camper. We also can get insight from parents about what tools work if a child needs a break. What do you do at home that has been most successful? Is it you have a calm corner or do they like to go for a walk? Or what is it that you've — the tools that you've worked with your child to come up with? You know, if we're only going to have your child with us for a couple weeks, knowing ahead of time and not having to figure that out for the first week. And I will say that over my years, I've had the mix of both.We've had people who send us all this information and it'll be all about their child and what they're working with them. And we always tell counselors, hey, the parents who fill out that really detailed information? That kid's going to arrive and he's going to — he or she is going to be awesome because this parent has been working with the child they have, you know, they're using a lot of tools. It's the kids that have you have no information for that often end up being for us the most to have the most challenging behaviors because no one told us anything ahead of time. And then they get to camp. And of course, we've worked with a lot of kids and we'll say, you know, seems like there's something going on with this child. And so then we're calling the parent and saying does this ever happen at school? And then the parent's like, oh yeah, I forgot to tell you.Amanda: It's interesting, and that was actually one of the questions I was going to ask you is about whether or not you recommend parents letting the camp know in advance. And I actually was going to ask you the difference between letting a camp know about what your child's needs are versus what their diagnosis is. Do you think there's a difference there?Audrey: Absolutely. And actually, what we tell our parents to do is on the form that's for the counselor, it's needs. So, yeah, my child needs to be reminded to drink water. Or sometimes when they get tired, this is what you'll see. They need a nap or whatever that might be. So we encourage parents to not put diagnoses or medications on the counselor information. But then for the nurses and the health staff, of course, if they're taking some kind of medication or need something like that, no alarms are going to go off if someone did put on the counselor form. But we do exactly what you suggested, Amanda, which is what we want to know is what does your child need from their counselor, from the experience, what are tips that will help us be successful and help your child be successful at our camp. But then do make sure that whoever needs the medical piece has that as well.Gretchen: So that approach — the two separate forms — it seems like a really good indicator that a camp has thought about these things and really thought thoroughly about them. So what are some other signs that a camp could be a supportive place for your kid, or maybe not such a good place for your kid?Audrey: I would actually recommend, I would call and say, this is what's going on with my child. Tell me about if you've had other children with these similar situations. How has it worked in the past? One of the questions that's really important is the ratio of counselors to campers. And that's something that we know to ask parents as well. Like our camp is, I guess you would call it a mainstream camp. It's for all kids. We do have kids coming to us with lots of different things going on, but it's not like we have specialists for kids, right? So one of the things we ask is how does your child do in a group of 10 kids with one adult? If that is the situation that you've seen your child be successful with in the past — following directions, staying with the group, able to modulate, whatever.Or, I mean, we have had cases where a child needs more attention and supervision, so then it's talking to the camp. Is there a way of getting an extra helper? Is that something that you can work with the camp? I mean, we've done all kinds of things to try to, you know, just make that experience successful. But I would ask that ratio, the staff training, and the camp's experience with working with neurodivergent kids. What do you do differently, or how do you make sure that this child is successful? I would say from my experience, a lot of my social skills, materials and activities really come from the work of people who work with kids who are on the autism spectrum, because they do such a good job of really clarifying what the steps are in like meeting a new person. So we use this stuff with all of our campers, so we really make it very accessible for like, we have kids as young as 6. So it's like it's for everybody.So I would just check with them about practices that they do. We all know that more demo time versus making kids sit and listen to instructions is better for all kids. Right? So like, if you're learning how to canoe, it's so much better to show them, get a paddle in their hand, have them practice, so that you're not just having them sit and talk about canoeing. So I would just say, what are your what are your practices that help for kids who maybe have attention, you know, issues? Or, you know, how do you how do you accommodate for that? And I think a lot of camps have learned that that's kind of how you're successful with all kids, right?Amanda: I love that you say that. I'm grinning. Gretchen's grinning. Because we are all about the "what helps kids who learn differently helps all kids" — it just makes so much sense. You know, you described your camp as a mainstream camp, but what I'm hearing is you're just an inclusive camp. And I think that's beautiful.Gretchen: So earlier you talked about the goals of summer camp, or at least the traditional type of summer camp we're talking about. How they're different from school, because the focus is on building relationship skills, about forming friendships and having fun, which of course I love and kids love. So can you talk a little bit about how that focus might be especially powerful for kids who learn differently?Audrey: Well, there's a couple things that come to mind. One is, I just want to say, just given this time we're in right now. I would say that we're seeing deficits in almost all kids socially. So I think neurodivergent kids are more like other kids because I think there's more struggle going on with kids. At least what we saw last summer. And I think a lot of teachers are seeing this less maturity socially, just things like that. What really for us, it's all about is practices that we do. We do a lot of things that require kids to share and listen. So that's just a small example. So you're in your group and the kids learn, and sometimes the first couple of days, it's hard for them right to listen or to share or either one.But they get a lot of practice at this, and it's really simple things. It might be that the counselor has them share their highlight of the day and their low of the day, a really common thing that a lot of families do. It might be that they have a question that they all answer. But whatever it is, everyone's practicing the skill of sharing with the small group and listening then. And we'll talk about things like, you know, when Sammy is sharing, be sure you're giving him your full attention, like looking at him, and listening, and your mouth is closed. You can say uh-huh, or you can say —. So we really are very clear about something like that. I think that common language and again, just normalizing all of this is really important. I think that's something that I think adults, we didn't, I don't remember anyone ever talking to me about these things, what I was when I was young.Amanda: And I love that. And I'm wondering, too. So there are going to be kids who have things that are normal for them at home, things that are typical for them at home, that they may worry about when they go to camp. So kids who have trouble sleeping, or kids who have sensory issues, or kids who, you know, have fears that are a little more prevalent than with other kids. What questions can parents ask to reassure themselves that those are needs that are going to be taken into account when their child gets there?Audrey: I would, as a parent, just ask. I would say, what do counselors do if a child is having trouble sleeping?Amanda: Yeah, that seems simple.Audrey: But you know, I mean, honestly, what you know, how do you respond with a child who has night terrors? What's the process for that, or sleepwalking? Because I know that I've been asked, you know, we've had this where there's different things. So again, those are things that I think you just specifically ask what would the process be? And that's another important thing to say. You know, sometimes my child has trouble sleeping. I will say at camp — it's funny, we have this conversation a lot. We had a conversation recently, actually around headphones for sleeping because we are totally unplugged camp. And so we have had a few kids who have to wean themselves off their headphones. And so, you know, we're working with the family and saying this is something important to practice before camp because you don't want them getting to camp and that being the first night without their headphones, if that's their thing that they're using. But also some things that we recognize is that a lot of kids have trouble the first couple of days at camp sleeping. It's very common. You know, you can ask the camp and ask them what their what their processes.I definitely, for a residential camp, I think it's important to have more than one adult who's with the kids at night, because kids do wake up and need things and you need that. It's kind of like having two parents like you have. If one person has to get up and stay up with a homesick camper for a couple of hours in the middle of the night you want then, the next night, the other counselor to be on duty for the wake-up. So I would just ask about that. I will say kids get really tired into camp and have less trouble sleeping. So if your child goes to camp for two weeks and they have trouble sleeping at home, they might have a couple of nights of adjustment and then they may have the best sleep of their entire lives because they will be hiking around and super active and their bodies will be really busy. They'll be unplugged, which we know is also helpful for sleep, so they won't have the screens and that kind of light. At outdoor camps like ours, we don't have electricity. We live in tents and have campfire. So we're also very much like the whole camp is asleep. By 10 p.m., it feels like the middle of the night at my camp, like quiet hour starts at 9 and the oldest kids stay up till 10. But it is quiet because you know it gets dark. You know, it's like this nice rhythm of the day, and then the sun comes up and you wake up. And so. So, yeah.Gretchen: Where is this, by the way?Amanda: Can we get to go?Audrey: I know, we always have people ask that.Amanda: So, you know, it's interesting that I hear in your answer, too, is like don't overthink. Right? And as a parent, that was interesting to me because I realize I typically think my kids are a little unusual. And what you're saying is that's not unusual. Camps get these questions all the time. And that's a relief to me. Audrey, one thing I love about your book, "Happy Camper," is that it gives families advice on taking the lessons about social growth at summer camp and using them at home. And you know, we know not all families can send their kids to summer camp. And even if we can, it's just for a few weeks out of the year. So I am wondering if you could give us a few of your favorite summer camp tips to use at home.Audrey: Good idea. Well, I will just say, OK, I guess one that I really especially love, it's kind of close to my heart is, we really focus at camp on focusing on kids strengths and things that are going well and being positive. So we do something at camp called wows, which is kids and staff can put a little note about something that someone did that was kind or helpful. And we have this big wow board and it gets filled up every day with notes about different people. And then they all get taken down before our assembly, and a few of them are read aloud and then all of them are distributed to people's mail. And it's really, really sweet, some of the notes that happen.And I know that's not realistic at home, but I will say that it's very powerful as a parent to just take a minute to think about something you really appreciate about your child. And especially when our children can be challenging and there's a lot of things that we're working with them on, sometimes we get kind of stuck in like all the things that they're not doing right. And we forget that, you know, they have this great sense of humor, or their energy just like makes the house more joyful, or whatever it is. So just writing a sticky note to your child and leaving it on the mirror, bathroom mirror, or their pillow, that can be really powerful and really meaningful, even if your child never says anything about it. So that's something that I often tell parents. It's a really positive connection thing.The other thing and it's super simple, but like part of our counselors' job description is doing a one-on-one check-in with each child. And this is not like a sit-down thing. It's just we're walking to activity I'm going to say hi, you know, I'm going to check in with this camper and say, so you know, what's going well today? And who are you feeling like you're getting closer with as a friend? And what are you most looking forward to, and how can I help you have more fun? So it's the eyeball-to-eyeball or side-by-side checking in where you're giving them your full attention. And I say this to parents, because I think a lot of times as parents, we spend a lot of time with our kids, but often we're distracted, even if it's just in our brain. We're thinking about, oh gosh, I'm so behind on this email or I forgot to pay the taxes or whatever it is.So I always just encourage parents to think like those camp counselors. And if you have three kids, think about every day, if it's even just two minutes that you just kind of clear your brain, you set your phone aside, and you're just with that child. And just whether it's talking to them or letting them tell you a story, whatever, it's that one-on-one focused attention and it works with spouses I think, too. Like being a little more attentive.Gretchen: Sticky notes, too?Audrey: Yeah, seriously, yeah. No, I do think, I just, it's kind of sad when you think about like how what we all need is human connection. And yet our lifestyles and the distraction actually are making us more lonely and disconnected from each other. So any practices that we can do that are just connecting. So, yeah, so I'd say those kinds of practices are some of my favorites.Gretchen: Nice. So, Audrey, I feel like we've asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything that we didn't get to that we should talk about?Audrey: I guess the only, I mean, something that you were saying, and I think just for parents, I often have to remind parents that our kids — we need to be comfortable with our kids' discomfort. Because any experience, including summer camp, will hopefully be mostly really positive. But even at whatever camp, there are going to be moments of discomfort, of unhappiness, of whatever it might be. But we all need to remember that those are how our children grow. So I think that's something that I've had to come to terms with my own kids.You know, it's really hard as a parent watching your child go through something or have to struggle through. But when they come out the other end, they have such a sense of confidence. So I think that's part of it and I think especially parents with — and I would just say like we have, you know, we have neurodivergent kids, but you also have kids with severe allergies, and you have kids with medical, diabetes, or different things. And all of those things, if you just put them all together as a parent, you tend to worry more, right? So you're more worried about them going into a new situation. But all parents are worried, too. So like, even if they don't have that. So I think that part of it is this mindset of and being realistic with your child, too. So not saying "this is going to be so fun every single day."Gretchen: Right? That's important.Audrey: Yeah. Realistic. And just saying, you know what? This is going to be really a fun adventure. But just so, you know, like I went to camp when I was little and I really missed home, and it took a while to adjust the first couple of days. And you know, at this camp, there are some people you can talk to if you if you need something. That's another piece that I just wanted to make sure you get to, is find out from the camp, so who does — who is my child's person? They go to their counselor if they need some additional support. Who is that person? I think that's a really important thing that camps need to communicate really clearly to the kids, to the parents, like just how it works. Who's the support network?Usually, the people with the kids are near-peers, so they might be college students. And that's a really magical thing to have someone who's just like, you know, cool and 20, who's in charge. And kids will grow and learn a lot because they're looking up to this person. And if they're going to try sailing, I'll try it. But they're also 20, so they're not going to necessarily know how to help a child who's flipping their lid five times in a day. They need to get support from someone else. So, I think that's the other piece, too. I think as a parent, you can feel comfortable once you feel comfortable with the structure and the support that your child is going to have. So, I would just familiarize yourself with that. And a lot of times it's very clearly written out on the website or it's in orientation that they cover.But I would try to really kind of let go a little bit in terms of the constant worry and be thinking, I've picked this program because I've vetted it. And if I get a sad letter from my child, I'll call them and I'll ask them about it. But I'm going to try to refrain from freaking out, because they told me I might get this letter.Amanda: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing all of this information. It was a joy to have you.Gretchen: It really was.Audrey: Well, thanks so much for having me. It was great talking to both of you.Gretchen: Audrey's book is called "Happy Campers: 9 Summer Camp Secrets for Raising Kids Who Become Thriving Adults."Amanda: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: This show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from our listeners.Amanda: If you want to learn more about the topics we cover today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Gretchen: Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Andrew Lee is our editorial lead, and Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Ericco wrote our theme music. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Gretchen: Thanks for listening and for always being in it with us. 

Understanding trouble with social skills

Social skills help us connect with other people and have successful interactions. Trouble with these skills can cause problems in many areas of life. That includes school, work, home, and out in the community. Struggling with social skills is different from not “being social.” People may want to interact. But when they do, it doesn’t go well. They might struggle to make conversation, seem out of sync, or behave in a way that turns off other people.People may have trouble picking up on social cues and following social rules. That can make it hard for them to fit in, form friendships, and work with others. They may avoid interacting and feel isolated and alone with their struggles.There are different reasons people have difficulty with social skills. Sometimes, the cause is temporary. But trouble with these skills is often part of larger, lifelong challenges.That doesn’t mean social abilities are set in stone. There are ways to build skills so it’s easier to connect with other people and have better interactions.

ADHD, irritability, and friendship (Jake’s story)

Jake always wondered why he had trouble managing emotions and why he struggled to keep friends. Then his mom got diagnosed with ADHD.Jake Lambert watched his mother thrive once she was diagnosed with ADHD and getting ADHD treatment. That pushed him to look for answers about his own struggles to pay attention. He wondered why he was so irritable, why he had trouble managing emotions, and why he struggled to keep friends. He figured they were just “bad” traits of his — but in reality, it was ADHD. Growing up, Jake did well enough in school that no one caught his ADHD symptoms. He’d have to re-read a page three times because he’d get distracted. And he constantly procrastinated on homework assignments. Jake and host Laura Key also talk about how ADHD can make you feel “crackly,” and coping strategies that help them.Related resourcesADHD and angerADHD and emotions5 ways ADHD can affect social skillsEpisode transcriptJake: So actually my mom had been diagnosed about a year or so before me, and she started a treatment plan with her therapist and her psychiatrist. And she works in insurance for a living. So she has to read these 60-page policies on the daily. And I could never understand how she could do it. And once she felt like the treatment was really helping her, I asked her about it. And she said that she could just sit there and finish the task to completion. And if she got an email or she got a text, it didn't bother her because she was focusing on the current task. And that was a mind-blowing way of hearing that experience, because I realized that I had never been able to focus on a task unless it was either due in an hour or something that was really exciting for me.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. I'm here today with Jake Lambert. Jake is a comedian and an actor who lives in West Hollywood. And Jake has ADHD. Welcome, Jake.Jake: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited.Laura: Can you tell me how old were you when you got diagnosed with ADHD?Jake: I believe I just turned 21. I'm 23 now.Laura: So in the heart of the pandemic.Jake: Yes. Yeah.Laura: What was happening during that time that was making you start to wonder if you had ADHD?Jake: Well, my mom had actually gotten diagnosed, and that was like a breakthrough diagnosis for her. And she felt like that once she started getting the proper treatment for it, that her whole life turned around. And I saw that. And as she was describing the sensation of the things in her life that were so much easier, I started to realize that I struggled with a lot of the same things. I'm a person that always has to be doing something. So like when we were just at home and there wasn't much to do and there wasn't many places to run and get stimulation, I started realizing that I have this burning desire within me to need to be getting constant stimulation all the time. And that's when I actually switched therapists, switched providers, because my previous one didn't believe in diagnoses. And that was a huge game-changer for me.Laura: It's really interesting to hear about a parent getting diagnosed and then it kind of trickles down to the child. I think that's really cool. Good on your mom. First of all, are you and your mom close?Jake: Oh, we're really close. We've always been so close. And looking back on it now and realizing that we both have ADHD, it just it makes so much more sense because we've had the kind of relationship that we're either like so on the same page with each other and it's amazing or we're too similar and you know, we're butting heads because of it and it just totally makes sense.Laura: Give me some examples.Jake: She's definitely more of the inattentive type, whereas I'm definitely hyperactive. And I know that as a kid that was something that always caused us to clash as the weekend would come and I would be like, "What are we doing? Where are we going? I want to get out of the house and do something." And she would kind of be a bit — what's the word for it? Like scatterbrained or not really wanting to like make plans and go do something. And like if she would bring up like, oh, you know, we could go to the zoo sometime or whatever, I'd be like, OK, can we go right now? And she'd be like, Whoa!Laura: Yeah. So hyperactive. Maybe a little impulsive, too.Jake: Yeah. Oh, very impulsive. Yeah.Laura: So what would happen in those situations when you would kind of butt heads like that, like your symptoms would kind of meet at odds with each other?Jake: Someone would end up probably crying, maybe me. I think I would either pester her enough until we went or it would just be like, OK, it's absolutely not happening. And I would have to make my own fun for the day.Laura: Are you an only child?Jake: I have a sister. She's five years younger than me.Laura: And how is she interacting in these situations?Jake: She definitely did not experience things the same way. And even as we were coming to terms with getting our diagnosis, she was like, "Yeah, that's a you guys thing. I don't think that applies to me at all." And it did make sense, because my mom and I always had that unspoken thing that like, just, we were able to get it.Laura: Did that strengthen for you and your mom after you got the diagnosis?Jake: Oh, yeah. 100%. Once we had that intangible thing that could never really be described, then I feel like with my relationship with my mom and my relationship to life in general, it all kind of pieced together pretty quickly.Laura: That's really nice. Do you think your sister felt left out? I have her on the phone, by the way. We're going to — I'm just kidding. Do you think that she ever felt left out?Jake: I don't know if she felt left out as much as like there were some things and like some feelings about things that my mom and I were kind of like, I don't know, like how she couldn't feel this way. Like, this is the only way to feel things. And she just completely did not experience that and maybe experience our anxieties and the impulsivity in the same way. But I think definitely like post us getting the diagnosis, it actually made her feel even less left out.Laura: I really like what you just said. Like, how can you not feel it this way? That really resonated with me. Like that kind of like, attachment to a feeling.Jake: Yeah.Laura: Tell me what you were like as a kid. How did you do in school?Jake: So I think part of the reason that I didn't suspect that I had ADHD and that other mental health providers didn't suspect it for so long was because I did pretty well in school, always made A's all the time. But looking back at it, I still see the ADHD very clearly. I was never much of a studier, which, you know, my friends would think was crazy. I was like, "Yeah, I just — I don't know how." And they're like, "What do you mean you don't know how? You just sit down and read." But that was so impossible for me. So I was definitely the type that was scribbling my homework during homeroom and like, you know, at lunch, looking over my notes for the test and like memorizing them very temporarily, then going to the test, word-vomiting all out on the test, and somehow doing well at the end of the day. But in terms of how much knowledge I actually retained, it's dwindled over the years.Laura: So a lot of procrastination is what I'm hearing.Jake: Oh, lots, lots and lots of procrastination. Math was something — that was maybe the one subject that I didn't procrastinate so much, I think because it was so hands-on and solving problems, and required so much brain effort that it was enough to keep me really engaged. But subjects like history or English or anything that required a lot of reading, I was never good at.Laura: Did any of this reflection come up in your conversations with your mom after she got diagnosed?Jake: Oh yeah, because even before I knew I had ADHD, before she knew as well, she works in insurance and she has to read, you know, 60-page policies. And I would ask her, but like, "How — how can you do that? I don't understand. How can you do it?" And she's like, "Well, I just have to. It takes forever, but I have to." That was actually the biggest thing that changed after she herself started getting treatment, because I asked her the same thing and she said it took her much quicker. And I was like, "Well, I don't understand. Are you enjoying reading it?" You know, historically for me, the only way that I could read is if I was so invested in whatever the material was. It was like I could read a book in a day, or it would take me three years and I would never finish the book. And no, she wasn't interested, but she was just able to stay focused. And if a text popped up on her phone, it didn't bother her anymore. She was able to finish the task to its completion. And that to me was a mind-blowing concept. And that's really when I started to decide to investigate this a little bit further for myself.Laura: That sounds like a pretty big "aha" moment.Jake: Yeah. Oh, that was a huge "aha" moment. I have wondered do I have problems with my eyesight? Am I just a slow reader? Like why does everyone else like books? And I don't like books, and why does it take me three times as long to finish? And that's when I start to put the pieces together and realized it's because I have to re-read the same page three times in a row, because I was thinking about dinner or I was thinking about the next task and I wasn't able to comprehend any of the information. And my former English teacher would probably scream, but I honestly made it through all of high school without reading a single book to completion, which is — it's a bit embarrassing to admit, but I've restarted my reading journey in the past year or so, knowing this about myself. And I just started picking out like novels that really, really interest me, or memoirs of people that really excited me. And even going back to like some TYA novels, like starting from the basics and just these like very short, sweet, you know, satiable books that I could just plow through. And I've started to realize I do like reading. It is fun. I get it now. It was just harder for me than everyone else.Laura: So last time we chatted, Jake, you used the word that really spoke to me. And it's one that we haven't really talked about on this show before. You described yourself as "irritable," or like you thought you were just irritable. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?Jake: So growing up, I kind of had, you know, my ups and downs during childhood. There were definitely times that I didn't fit in very well in school or times that I felt pretty misunderstood by the adults and my peers in life. And I just felt like there would be times that little things like noises or people's behavior, or when something is mentioned or taunted in front of my face that it would just — I don't know, it would get under my skin so much. And I grew up kind of developing a little bit of resentment toward myself, because I just thought that I was so difficult and that I had to do things so different than everybody else. And why can't I just get it like everyone else? Or why can't I just let things go? That was a common theme. Just to let things go, just move on. And I would say up until the diagnosis at 21, that I still continued to feel that way. And since getting it, it's been a journey over these past two years to kind of unlearn all of the things that I felt about myself and kind of re-approach my life and how I viewed myself with more compassion and understanding. And that's why I feel like getting a diagnosis, while it may not be important to everyone, was so important to me and just really allowed me to be kinder to myself.Laura: So some self-kindness kind of reduced that feeling of irritability, so to speak. And the word itself hasn't come up, but it's something that kind of comes up thematically. And a lot of conversations that I have, like the negative stereotype of people with ADHD, whether or not, you know, that person has ADHD, it's like this person who's like "crackly" is the word that keeps coming to mind for me, like, kind of restless and like reactive and crackly. Like, has that interfered with anything in the past? Like as a kid, did it ever get you in tough situations or situations that you regret for one reason or another?Jake: Oh yeah, I think so for sure. I think crackly is a great word because one thing that pops to mind is I lived in apartments a lot as a kid, poorly insulated apartments. And we'd have really loud upstairs neighbors or a loud barking dog next door, whatever it is. And those sounds, especially if they were like infrequent and sporadic and I had no control over them, they would literally cause this bubbling rage inside me, which was like part of what was so confusing. And I think why I viewed myself as irritable is because I didn't understand where this rage was coming from. I never considered myself to be an angry person. But during those moments I could lash out and say things that 10 minutes later I would completely never imagine that I had said. And that definitely hurt in terms of making friendships, especially friendships with neurotypical people who couldn't understand, even though I didn't understand at the time.Laura: Jake, our listeners can't see me, but I've been like nodding ferociously. Speaking of rage, you said a lot of things there that are really poignant. And I also want to say I'm sorry to hear that it affected friendships for you. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?Jake: One thing would be, you know, if I was having a conversation with someone, it could be something as simple as they're tapping their leg or they're tapping their pen or they're like making a noise. Then like as soon as that's happening, my brain, it shuts off. It's only focusing on that. I can't even hear what they're saying, and even in my responses could kind of like, you know, lash out at someone in that moment or quickly dismiss what they said. Honestly, I think a lot of my friendships during youth came to an end for that reason, not necessarily directly because they were making some kind of noise and I lashed out and that was it, but just in the sense of they couldn't fully understand me. And I feel like part of my ADHD is I'm very ruled by my emotions, and I'm like hyper in tune to little subtleties or difference that I notice from friends, and can maybe expect too much from people or read into things too much sometimes. And that would get me into some trouble.Laura: Some of what you just said, though, Jake, also sounds like qualities that make a great friend, like being able to notice, to be really perceptive, that kind of being very in tune to feeling. Is that accurate of you?Jake: Yeah, I think so, 100%. Like, it's definitely been a trial and error to find the people in my life. I'm definitely someone that likes to keep a really small circle of very close friends. I absolutely can't stand small talk or relationships where the conversation never really goes to a deeper level. So the people that I have found over the years, some of them with ADHD and some of them without, I think that they kind of view me as a kind of source of wisdom or advice, or the person that's always going to be there, which can be a good and bad thing for myself as well. Being someone that likes to overexert myself to burn out and, you know, be ready and willing for anyone at the drop of a hat. I've never been someone who's had a group of friends. More so I make very strong connections with people from a whole bunch of different groups and walks of life. Something about that group setting makes me really shrink up.Laura: What do you think it is?Jake: I think it's a lot of social anxiety. I get extremely in my head and I hear my inner monologue more than ever, and I'm like constantly like looking for little tidbits of the conversation, like, oh, could I contribute to that? Do I have the perfect thing to say to be liked by the group? Whereas it's funny to think about when you're removed from the situation and it's like, well, everyone in the group says things without making sure it's the perfect thing to say. So why do I have this pressure on myself to have everything come out so perfectly or not be cringy? Will they think I'm normal? Will they like me? And I also think there's an aspect of having to mask my symptoms when I'm in a group, as opposed to with a strong individual connection.Laura: For example, I'm speaking from my own experience here. You're in a group. A bunch of people are talking. You're obviously very intelligent, but because of the way your brain is wired, it might be harder to, like, keep up and, like, you have something to say, and then you're afraid you're going to lose it because of the working memory. And so you're like, when they say this, I will say this kind of thing.Jake: Yeah.Laura: Well, I'm sorry to hear that you may be struggling with some social anxiety, but it is really common for people with ADHD to also struggle with anxiety. When you would leave like a group setting or a party, do you ever replay everything you said?Jake: All the time. All the time, and not even just that night. For years to come. I think about this one thing that I said, this thing that didn't land or, God forbid, I finally said that thing and something else happened and nobody heard what I said. And I have to decide, am I going to repeat that? Was it even that good? 100%. That's been something as well. I have to like look back and be like, OK, you know what? It's time to forgive yourself for this. You would forgive another friend if they said this. You need to move on to.Laura: I'm actually looking up something that we wrote on our website, Understood.org, about ADHD and feelings of remorse, like feeling guilty. As someone with ADHD, you're aware of what's happening, what things you're struggling with, but then it doesn't make those things go away. So you're like hyperaware of what you did and like, you can, like, ruminate on it and feel anxious about it. Tell me and our listeners about what it is that you do.Jake: So I'm a comedian. I do improv, sketch comedy. Standup is something that I'm just starting to get back into as well. And then I also act and sing. So I've been out here for about six months. And it's been so awesome because since then I've been able to make my living doing what I love and being an actor. And, you know, I feel like above fame and riches and anything else that like just getting to survive and live in a place that I love, getting to do what I love and meeting people that are interested in the same has been like the greatest gift that I've had in my adult life thus far.Laura: Do you ever bring ADHD into your improv? Do you ever talk about it?Jake: Not talk about it, but I think that ADHD is my superpower there because I have always been quick and clever. All of those years of listening in on group conversations and figuring out the perfect thing to say have definitely helped. And because improv, everyone is saying something stupid, so you don't have to worry about that. It's just the practice of, OK, I'm thinking this, get it out.Laura: Oh, that's great. I'm glad you found something that you feel passionate about and you seem really happy.Jake: Oh, yeah. Even the nature of just, I mean, I did work a 9 to 5 for a couple of months in sales, and that felt so wrong for me. So, so very wrong. And even the nature of now, I'll start off the week on Sunday and I'll have no idea what my week is going to look like until it happens. And I might wear four different hats that week. And just the fact that it's always different and exciting and changing and last-minute, I just feel like I found the lifestyle that, like, really fills that need inside of me.Laura: Oh, my God. Well, people can't see you right now, but Jake's smile is so big. I just have to say that. Right now, as you're saying that, you're beaming.You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@Understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood as a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening. 

4 ways dyscalculia can affect social skills

Dyscalculia makes math hard, but it can impact more than just schoolwork. Here are four social challenges people with dyscalculia might face — and ways to help. 1. Avoiding popular games The dyscalculia link: Many games like Uno and Bingo use math skills and strategies. That can be hard for people with dyscalculia, so they may avoid playing altogether. How you can help: Practice playing games in a low-stress environment. That can help boost confidence to join in on the fun another time. 2. Having low self-esteem The dyscalculia link: When people struggle with math over and over, it can make them think they’ll struggle with other things, too. They may worry about trying to make new friends or trying new activities.How you can help: Encourage people to try group activities that build on their strengths. For example, kids and adults who like to run can see if there’s a track and field club in their area. 3. Getting teased The dyscalculia link: Some people may say mean things if they see someone having trouble with everyday skills that seem simple — things like telling time and knowing left from right.How you can help: Learn about the difference between teasing and bullying. Practice ways to respond and shut down negative comments. And find out what to do if you suspect bullying at school.4. Being afraid to drive or go new placesThe dyscalculia link: People with dyscalculia often have trouble navigating and judging distance and speed. This can lead to a lot of anxiety on the road. How you can help: Find times and places to practice with few other cars on the road. If possible, hire a driving instructor who has experience teaching students who learn and think differently.Learn more: See ways dyscalculia can affect a child’s daily life.

ADHD, social awkwardness, and ghosting (Allison’s story)

Allison O’Keefe worried she annoyed her friends — only for one friend to confirm that feeling. But has her recent ADHD diagnosis changed how she sees herself? Allison O’Keefe, a UX designer in Detroit, always felt she rubbed people the wrong way. Then, in her early teen years, one of her friends confirmed it when she called Allison “the annoying friend” behind her back. This made Allison more cautious in social situations, which often overwhelmed her. Worse, she also found herself accidentally “ghosting” people, forgetting to respond to their messages.Eventually, a therapist asked her if she’d ever been diagnosed with ADHD, and the diagnosis started to make a lot of sense. She now feels less isolated — even as she still grapples with how open she wants to be about her ADHD.How do folks with ADHD navigate these choppy social waters? Listen in as Laura and Allison sort through these questions and more.Related resources5 ways ADHD can affect social skillsADHD and oversharingADHD and feeling guilty or remorseful Episode transcriptAllison: I asked my boyfriend if he had ever suspected, and he was like, "Yeah, it makes sense." He would call me very bubbly when we first started dating, so he saw quite a few symptoms where after I brought it up from that diagnosis, he was like, "Yeah, this all makes sense to me."Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key, I'm the editorial director here at Understood, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. I'm here today with Allison O'Keefe. Allison is a UX designer based in Detroit, and she's also a listener who wrote in. So, thank you so much, Allison, for being here. Thank you for being a listener. How are you doing today?Allison: I'm good. I'm really excited to be here.Laura: Let's start with you sharing your diagnosis story. When did you get diagnosed?Allison: In August of 2021. I was struggling a little bit at work, and my workplace is actually very supportive with mental health and wellbeing. So, I attended a webinar because I had no idea how to start therapy. And the key takeaway that I got from it like to start was like, write down what has been hard to manage, and my hard-to-manage bullet points were anxiety and worry, forgetfulness, trouble focusing, trouble falling asleep, and intrusive thoughts. So, that is what I went into therapy with, and my goals for therapy were better-coping mechanisms and not worrying, and being able to focus. Those are my goals.Laura: OK, we'll take care of that in a week or so.Allison: Right, yeah. And so, when I started the initial appointment, I went through the questionnaire, and the therapist, my therapist asked if I had ever been diagnosed with ADHD and I had not. It was a surprise to me that it is something that came up that she asked if I had been diagnosed for.Laura: Had you ever considered ADHD prior to that?Allison: No, it's not anything that ever crossed my mind. Funnily enough, after that first initial appointment, I asked my boyfriend if he had ever suspected and he was like, "Yeah, a little bit. It makes sense." So...Laura: Yeah, tell me more about that. What, did he give you any more detail?Allison: It was really just like the symptoms that you see and people who do have ADHD. He had a front-row view of, since we've been living together for the last couple of years, being very impulsive with buying things and being very hyperactive. He would call me very bubbly when we first started dating, so he saw quite a few symptoms where after I brought it up from that diagnosis, he was like, "Yeah, this all makes sense to me."Laura: Bubbly. I'm really interested to hear this term. I love unpacking euphemisms that we use for ADHD symptoms, and that's just one that I had never heard before. What do you think he meant by bubbly?Allison: I think he meant like very excitable, and I have definitely felt that way even in our relationship and just with friendships in general where I'm like very excitable. I've always said that, like, really small things will make me excited, and I get very, like, interested in things. When somebody brings up a topic, I get very invested and like excited about whatever the thing is. So, I think that is what he meant by bubbly.Laura: We'll come back to that. Let's stick with your diagnosis story for a moment. So, your therapist raises the question, "Have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD?" It's interesting that your therapist went straight to "Have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD" as opposed to "Have you ever considered ADHD?"Allison: Yeah. Yeah. And she definitely did let it sit with me for a little while till I looked into different resources of ADHD, like across the Internet. I actually took a look at like the DSM-5. I started watching YouTube videos and I downloaded podcasts, which is how I found this one. And she really let me sit with it for a little while just to, like, make sure that it fit for what I was feeling and what I was experiencing. She didn't want to just jump to the conclusion and label me with ADHD without like having that consent from me. Like saying that, "Yes, this is something that that does resonate with me and my experiences that I was having."Laura: The last time that we chatted, I wrote down this phrase that you used. You said that ADHD for you was never in the, quote, realm of possibility.Allison: Yeah. Nobody in my life had ever been diagnosed with ADHD before, so it wasn't something that I was familiar with, even like the old term ADD like that, that never came up anywhere. Like teachers that I had in grade school or high school. It was just never something that ever came up. And I feel like it fits a lot of ADHD people, like out of sight, out of mind, Like it wasn't something that I was aware of growing up.Laura: You know, to the best of your — that your memory allows. What kinds of ADHD symptoms do you think you were experiencing, even though you weren't aware of it at the time?Allison: Definitely chattiness. I was definitely a chatty kid. I got in trouble for that a couple of times in school. I would be passing notes or I would just be like talking in class. Funnily enough, I was also learning sign language with a friend, so we would be like talking and sign language across the classroom. And I did get in trouble for that, but chattiness and a lot of forgetfulness. Like forgetting to do homework and bring homework home. I believe I actually forgot to, like, get something signed by my parents for band. And because I forgot that and I wanted to participate, I forged my mom's signature, and of course, my band teacher was like, "That is not a mom's signature, that is a child." So, I did get in trouble for that. I also had a lot of brain hyperactivity all the time where I was just constantly thinking, and I could never shut my brain off. And because I was in like sports and stuff, I think that the being in sports and sort of like wearing myself out every day, I was able to sort of like get out some of that hyperactivity where I could focus a little bit more.Laura: What sports did you play?Allison: I played soccer, and I did cross country.Laura: Very tiring sports, and a way to get out a lot of energy, yeah.Allison: Yes. But it was also very funny, actually. I was very slow. I was not fast, but the girls that I ran with were also slow. And we just used that time to talk.Laura: Of course.Allison: Yes. It was a great time to talk.Laura: That's nice. Forgetting to get things signed or forgetting to hand things in, I like when people bring that up because it's just this really great example of ADHD in action, especially things that parents can notice early. Like as an early indicator, it's like, "Oh, my kid did the work," or "My kid, you know, understands the work, but it just didn't make it to the teacher." Yeah.Allison: And I think I mean, schools hand out those planners to the kids like the first day of school or whatever. And I remember being very excited to fill out the planner, but I don't know that I necessarily remember to, like, keep up with it.Laura: Yeah.Allison: It's just so much structure that they want you to utilize. But I mean, I think a lot of people who do have ADHD know that like structure is great, but it is also sometimes a prison where you have to like, stick with that. And that I think was always very difficult for me.Laura: Don't remember if this adjective that you used for yourself growing up was something you shared with me when we chatted before, or if it was from your email that you sent in. But I remember that you used the word annoying. Kids considered you annoying. I say this with love, Allison. I hope you know I don't think you're annoying. I want you to know this.Allison: Yeah, it is definitely something that I still struggle with today. I was definitely very excitable, as we've talked about, and I was always very constantly chatting, and I definitely have a tendency to overshare and go a little bit farther than I think most people would. And that really sort of rubbed people the wrong way. And so, because of that, I became the annoying friend. It's actually quite sad. I accidentally came across a text message from people in my friend group where somebody had texted one of my friends saying that I was the annoying friend and my friend group compared to the annoying friend and one of the other friend groups. That was my first sort of initial experience of feeling like, "Oh, the people that I hang around with, they think that I'm annoying and that it was like rubbing them the wrong way where it doesn't necessarily like make them want to be around me," which is really sad. I think I was in middle school or like maybe high school, so it's like those formative years where that's not something you want to hear from your friends. And just having that experience definitely stuck with me. And even to this day, I'm very hesitant to like overshare with coworkers and even my friends today, like they have mentioned, like, "Oh, Allison doesn't really share things with us." And it is something that I'm working on with this new friend group specifically because they're my friends and I want to share things with them. But I'm always very like cautious about what I say because it could be something that is just a little overboard and it ends up pushing people who I care about away.Laura: I'm sorry that happened. That kind of thing would stick with me. I can see that it sticks with you and that it impacts how you're approaching your friendships today.Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah.Laura: Part of your racing thoughts, do they involve thinking about yourself and if you, quote-unquote, messed up at any point during the day and maybe were overly annoying or something like that, is that maybe what keeps you up at night sometimes?Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it is definitely like a lot of things just pop into my head. It ends up with me Googling things very late into the night and sending myself notes so that I can look more into it later the next day. But yeah, overthinking tendencies, where I think back to how that day went and my interactions with people throughout the day. The overreactions I definitely think about a lot. And it does sit with me to the point where I usually try to end up like coming back the next day and trying to fix what I might have done the previous day just because it was just sitting with me and sitting in my mind and on my brain. And I won't let it go unless I fix it.Laura: I totally feel you. Sometimes I feel like I'm overbearing because I will come back to that thing that got blown out of proportion in my head. And then in the morning, I'm just waiting for the moment when I can reach out to that person and be like, Hey, I didn't mean to be whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes, like people who get me, they're like, "No, it's all good." Like, I would, I didn't even think about it. Most of the time they say, "I didn't even notice that."Allison: Yeah, yeah. And that happens with my boyfriend often where I'll say something and then I have, I can't stop thinking about it. And I come back to him later and I'm like, "I'm so sorry that, like, I overreacted that way or I was in your way." And he'll just be like, "Well, that's fine. That's not something that I've been thinking about."Laura: Yeah, it's such a difficult cocktail, the restless brain, the restless ADHD brain, plus the, when you know you have ADHD and you have awareness of your challenges, or if you encountered a text about being annoying or something like that and you have this awareness of how people perceive you, kids and adults with ADHD, we actually, we have content about this on Understood.org about feeling remorse for things big and small, like completely blown out of proportion. Like "I did this wrong, I screwed this up. It's really hard to cope with." Do you talk to your therapist about this? Or...Allison: Oh, yeah. Just being able to talk with her. And it's after a week of ruminating on things, I really like being able to bring things to her to just talk things out. And it's usually when I do talk things out that it all just starts to feel better. And even if it's something that I've been deliberating or like unable to make up my mind about something, it usually ends with me coming to this realization after I've spoken it out loud of like, "Oh yeah, well, this is why this happened, because X, Y, and Z," or "This is why I've been feeling this way." Like after I get it out into the open and speaking with her and sort of just having her as a sounding board is very, very helpful for me.Laura: So, one of the things I like to do on this show, and the purposes of the show is to help people see through the context of human stories what ADHD symptoms and choices and behaviors can really look like, so that maybe they can spot them in themselves. And there's one thing that you talked about in your email and that we chatted about previously, that isn't something that we've talked a lot about on the show, which is what I call ADHD wishful thinking or over-optimism. I guess I'll pause there and just get your reaction even to that term. ADHD wishful thinking.Allison: That definitely resonates with me just because over my adult years I've definitely been very ambitious in my hobbies and I started with photography back in high school and it was very much like, "Oh, I, I want to become such a good photographer and I want to put my work online and I just want to be fully into the world of photography." It usually happens when, like I tell people like, "This is what I am doing," and then the novelty of it is gone. That actually happened back in 2008, and when I was going to start a photography blog. And I think that was also the last time I did photography, because I let people know like, "Hey, I have something that's really been coming." And then after I posted that on Instagram, I don't think that I touched my camera since, which is a bummer because I really love photography. It's something that's really close to my heart. But I definitely like, go down these sorts of rabbit holes all the time where I'll get very interested or invested in a thing, and I dedicate all of my time to this thing, and it just eats up so much of my mental space and that's all that I can think about. And sometimes it all just go away or sometimes it'll go away prompted by telling people, and then the novelty has gone. It's very, very strange to even just like talk about. But I had read a blog about two girls from Michigan who had sailed around the Great Lakes, and my family has a sailboat. So I was like, "Oh, I connect with us. This is something I can absolutely do. Like, I could sail around Michigan as well. I'm going to look online for a sailboat that I could live on as I sail across the Great Lakes." I put together the route and like all of the places that I had stopped at and to a Google My Maps, I create a Pinterest boards of like how I was going to decorate this boat. And I created a blog that, like the girls, being very aspirational. I was like, "This is, I'm going to write about all of my experiences and like how I'm going to do this." And I honestly truly cannot say what happened. But I at some point I just dropped it all and I no longer wanted to live on a boat and sail across the Great Lakes. It was just gone. So, it's really just like things like that. That is like a very impulsive thing to even consider doing. I mean, I've grown up on a sailboat, but I don't know how to sail one. Laura: It's tangential to your life, but yeah.Allison: Right. Yeah. So, it's just very impulsive things like that where I tend to get very excited and very invested and then all of a sudden the excitement is gone and I'll have moved on to something else. That's, that's wild.Laura: I mean, Alison, do you want to hear the short list of the things that I've tried to invest myself and skills that I wanted to develop that just were gone with? A yes. OK, let's see. Joan of Arc expert and feminist biographer, feminist critiquer of advertising across New York City on billboards and taxicabs and whatnot. I started a Tumblr that lasted three days, rock critic, movie critic, all these things that I've just tried to do. And I'm like, "I'm doing this. This is what I'm going to do." And then I'm like, "Nah, nah." It's fun, but It can be painful, though.Allison: Yeah. Yeah, it is very painful. And it's really, I think, difficult because I want to be doing multiple things at once that I have a lot of like investment and I have a lot of like excitement about. But for whatever reason I can only focus my energy on one of those things. And so, it feels very difficult. And I've spoken to my therapist about this like, I don't understand how people have multiple interests and like dedicate their time to multiple things at one time. It is an enigma to me, and I don't understand that.Laura: There is another thing that you mentioned when we chatted again or in your email. I can't remember, but you talked about ghosting.Allison: Yes.Laura: Tell me about ghosting.Allison: It's happened my entire life. I would start talking with guys from dating apps when like I was still dating and I would just sort of forget they existed and then never text them again. That happened a number of times. I think in the email I mentioned that I had been texting my sister and she was telling me about her own personal interests, and I meant to text her back and I never did, which I felt really bad about.  The worst case of my ghosting was an old coworker who had messaged me and she was saying that her boyfriend, they were hiring at his company and that I should get in touch with him if I was interested in like switching jobs and the feeling that I got from just her text message, I hadn't even looked up her boyfriend's message yet, it was just like so overwhelming of like, "I don't even know what to say. I'm so anxious. I need to think about, like, how am I feeling with work right now."  And I don't even know that I messaged her back that day. I was just so overwhelmed with this idea of responding to her that I think I took a week and a half to respond. And once I did, I don't think she ever responded because that was kind of like crappy of me. I might have damaged that relationship, to be honest, just because the feelings were too much for me in that moment.Laura: It seems like the ghosting isn't related to forgetfulness, but maybe responding to a text message and maybe finishing a big work project like everything is at the same level. In terms of priority, it's hard to prioritize. Is that accurate?Allison: I think so, yeah. And I think it's sometimes the ghosting ends up because I am overwhelmed and but then it also, as my mom has texted me and I've seen the text message and I completely forget and then she'll text me back the next day asking if I saw her text. And it's just like, "Oh yeah, I just..."Laura: Moms are so good like that.Allison: "I saw it and I forgot to respond." That happens a lot.Laura: My mom will do the same thing. She's like, "Did you see that?" I'm like, "Yeah, I saw." But I don't I can't attribute that to ADHD that much.Allison: Right.Laura: Yeah, I get really overwhelmed because I want to give a thoughtful response.Allison: Yes. Yeah.Laura: It's not malicious. For anybody listening who doesn't have ADHD and you got ghosted by someone who has ADHD, it's most likely not intentional. Let's just put that out there. Maybe the guys from the dating app that might have been, maybe that is they weren't memorable enough, right? That's not on you. But you know, how open are you with other people about the fact that you have ADHD?Allison: Oh, I'm not open about it at all. The only people who know are my therapist, my sister — my sister also guessed that I had ADHD — and my boyfriend. Those are the only people who know.Laura: And I mean, you're early, too, and it takes a long time to share. And you can choose to never share too. It's yours, it's part of your identity, however you want to share that to be interesting. If your friend knew that you had ADHD, I'm not saying that you should have shared that with her, just it would have been interesting if there's more in general, if there's more awareness of ADHD, and if she knows that you have ADHD, she might be like, "Hey, reminder about this."Allison: Yeah. Yeah. And it is definitely something that like I'm grappling with right now, like, I'm not sure yet how — despite the fact that I've come on this podcast and I'm like announcing it to the world that I have ADHD — I'm still sort of grappling with how open I want to be about my diagnosis. I'm actually planning on talking about it with my friends this weekend. I am working on trying to share a little bit more with the people who are close to me. And that's like, I really do want them to know, like I want them to sort of understand more about who I am as a person.Laura: Yeah, and maybe you'll decide that you don't feel comfortable sharing that at all. Or maybe you want to scream it from the rafters. Either way, I think it's awesome, Allison, that you're going to connect with your friends, and you know, you should write us back and let us know how it goes. But if you don't, I won't be offended because I won't consider it to be ghosting. We're just busy people.Allison: OK, I'll do — will write back.Laura: Thank you, Allison, for hanging out with me today. It's been so great to interview you.Allison: Thank you for having me on. I actually had this aspiration at one point I was doing a running blog because I was really into running at one time. And I was also it was when I first started learning about podcasts and listening about all these podcasts, I was like, "I'm going to combine the two." And I started blogging about running and I started blogging about podcasts. And I was always like, "I would love to have my own podcast one day, but I don't even know what I would talk about." So, this has been so much fun, and I loved being here.Laura: Yay! And see, that's an example. It wasn't wishful thinking you're here. It's a step in that direction. So, thank you so much, Allison. I think you're great.Allison: Oh, thank you. This has been awesome.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently, discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show for the Understood Podcast Network. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

5 ways ADHD can affect social skills

ADHD can make it hard for people to focus and pay attention. But it affects more than just school or work. ADHD can affect social skills, too. Here are five common social challenges people with ADHD may face — and ways you can help.1. Trouble picking up on social cuesThe ADHD link: People with ADHD might not notice how their behavior affects other people. They may interrupt a lot and even bug people by breaking social rules.How you can help: Role-play different social situations together. First you play the other person in each scenario. Then switch roles. Finish by talking about what went well and what could be done differently. 2. Trouble keeping friendsThe ADHD link: People with ADHD can be intense and demanding without knowing it. They can have trouble taking turns and sharing, and friendships may burn out. How you can help: Sign up for a sport or another group activity. It may be easier for people with ADHD to learn about “give and take” in a group setting rather than one-on-one. 3. Going off-topicThe ADHD link: People with ADHD sometimes lose track of a conversation or get distracted by unrelated thoughts. They may also misinterpret what others are saying.How you can help: Record a conversation. Listen to it together and talk about where you both hear someone going off-topic. Talk about how the conversation could have gone better.4. Being unreliableThe ADHD link: People with ADHD can have trouble with planning and follow-through. That can lead other people to think they can’t be counted on when doing group projects.How you can help: Encourage people with ADHD to talk with the group members about how they’ll divide up the work. Then help make a checklist or chart to keep track of personal progress.5. OverreactingThe ADHD link: ADHD can make it hard to manage emotions. People with ADHD may lash out when they’re upset. Or they may have meltdowns at an age when it’s no longer appropriate. How you can help: Try to pay attention to feelings like anger and irritation. What does it feel like? Being mindful makes it easier to recognize when “emotional temperatures” are rising. Explore more ways ADHD can affect daily life.

“Don’t be lazy!” That ADHD voice, plus the ADHD tax (Tony’s story)

Tony Tran could focus on his job, but not schoolwork. It turns out he had ADHD all along. Now, he’s grieving “lost time” and considering the ADHD tax. Tony Tran decided to get evaluated for ADHD during his last year of college, after starting a part-time IT job. His grades began to slip, and his brain would scream at him: “Don’t be lazy!” Then he realized that the fake scenarios he had to solve alone in class were boring compared to the real-life problems he collaborated on with his co-workers. When Tony was a child, his family immigrated from Vietnam to Australia. Growing up, Tony’s ADHD symptoms were missed. But now his mom even sees ADHD in herself. After being diagnosed, Tony felt grief for lost time — time when he could have known why he felt like the “annoying weird kid.” Time when he could have held on to relationships that ended because of his trouble managing emotions. But that lost time led him to who he is today: A person with deeper understanding of ADHD and the strengths that can come with it.Also in this episode: The “ADHD tax.” Listen in to see if you’ve paid a literal price as a result of ADHD behaviors. Related resourcesADHD and coping with rejectionADHD and emotions5 ways ADHD can affect social skillsEpisode transcriptTony: I just had to, like, sit back and ask why am I failing all of a sudden? Because I always assumed I was lazy or couldn't do my work on time. But it didn't feel like that because this was right around the time where I got my first job in IT. And at the job, I really put 110% in. And I did everything. I learned super quickly. So I would just do my work instead, because it was much more interesting to me.Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.I'm so excited to be here today with Tony Tran, a 24-year-old recent college graduate — which we would call college in the United States. But Tony is in Australia. So we'll say university graduate, who was diagnosed with ADHD last year. Thank you so much for being here with me today, Tony.Tony: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about it.Laura: And we say today, but there's that — we've been having some discussion about what "today" means because it's 9 a.m. where I am and it's midnight where you are. So we're not even sure if we're in the same day.Tony: Saturday just started for me.Laura: Yeah, there we go. So in addition to everything that I just said, you also are an "ADHD Aha!" listener who wrote in. And we are really compelled by your story, so we wanted to invite you on the show. So thank you for being a listener.Tony: Thank you for making the show. It actually has helped me. A lot of symptoms that you and the guests talk about on the show aren't really covered — at least not as specific as the show is — online or anything. And it's just I've had like multiple "aha" moments listening to the show, where I'm like, oh, I do that.Laura: I have "aha" moments recording these shows and talking with folks like you. So that makes me happy to hear. Thank you.Well, when you wrote in to us, one of the things that you had said in your email was that last year, which was the year that you got diagnosed, you said that it was, and I'm quoting you, "a tumultuous, eye-opening year." So I'm thinking let's start with — explain to me what that was about.Tony: So I got diagnosed in around March of last year. And immediately my first reaction was to ask a bunch of like "what if" questions. Like, what if I got diagnosed earlier? Like, what if I knew about this? Would I have not struggled have as much in the past?I just had a lot of regret and grief about what I had gone through in the past. Like, for example, I've learned a lot about emotional dysregulation. And I spent a month kind of getting over the fact that it has had an effect on my life, and it led me to here.But like now that I know how to deal with it, I can move forward. But in the past it has probably ruptured a lot of friendships and relationships. And just, I never did well in school, but I wasn't a bad student. I know my teachers liked me. It's just I — no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't do the right thing when it came to assignments.You know, there's a phrase that's going around. Like "they understood the assignment." I don't think I ever understood an assignment, because I would like to venture off on my own adventure when I start them and just, like, completely missed the point or do, like, my own interpretation of it.Laura: What was going on right before you decided to get evaluated for ADHD? What was your, I guess, tipping point or like maybe your big "aha" moment?Tony: So, I realized that my grades at university were really slipping. I was starting to fail. And I just had to like, sit back and ask, why am I failing all of a sudden? Because I always assumed I was lazy or couldn't do my work on time. But it didn't feel like that.Because this was right around the time where I got my first job in IT. And at the job, I really put 110% in. I did everything. I learned super quickly. And I realized that before, I could make myself do university work because I told myself that I was lazy. It's time to do something productive. Get on it, Tony. But at that time, it was more like you need to do something productive. So I would just do my work instead, because it was much more interesting to me.Laura: Were you studying IT?Tony: Yes, I was studying IT, and I landed a good internship that led into like a part-time job.Laura: What was the difference to you? Like, what was motivating about doing the job versus doing the studies?Tony: I found out that I'm very much a "working with other people" sort of person. I can't really learn much in a school context, because I just need to have like a good reason about why we're doing things. And I need to be working towards something greater than like a vague scenario.Another thing that I've noticed recently as well is I tend to lose interest if I'm not allowed to be creative in doing what I'm setting out to do. So with my studies, there was a lot of "here's the problem; we need you to solve in this specific way using this thing." Whereas if I was working, it was just the problem and I got to go off and like talk to different people, research a bunch of different methods I can like use, and like have different things to work with rather than just lecture slides of examples of what I can use.Laura: Yeah, I hear you. Tell me about what would go through your brain. Like, what was your thought process when you needed to study, when you needed to do something to prepare for a test, for example. As opposed to, say, doing the job, which was interesting to you and you could focus on that.Tony: It was a lot of self-deprecation. There was a lot of being really hard on myself. It did take getting really close to the deadline for me to actually do it. I would often pull all-nighters or do stuff the night before and then just have like a wave of regret that I didn't spend enough time doing it afterwards.So it's a lot of telling myself, "You need to do this, don't be lazy." I think there was a lot of pressure of getting good grades so you get a job.Laura: Yeah. I mean, not the kind of pressure that was motivating to you, though. It was more...Tony: Yeah, it was not a good type of pressure. Before I did IT, I did study law for about two years. And I didn't do well in that field, because it was a lot of reading and I can't sit still and read. There was a very big notion of if you're not going to get this grade, drop out — it's not going to work out for you. So I carried that on into my IT degree.Laura: So would you say that your "aha" moment — I'm going to make sure I understand the timeline — did it really come at that moment when you started working as opposed to studying?Tony: Yeah, I think it's the moment where I was like, I need to figure this out. I've known for a very long time that there was something going on. I have actually chased a lot of different diagnoses before ADHD. I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety, persistent depressive disorder. And I thought I had a lack of focus. So we did sleep tests, and it turned out I had sleep apnea as well. So I invested into a CPAP machine.It was just a lot of things that didn't really solve it. It helped, but it wasn't life-changing as much as I thought it would be — until I got my ADHD diagnosis. And that's why I said it was like eye-opening. I felt like when I got it, the world lit up, like everything started making sense.Laura: You got diagnosed with ADHD, and you worked with doctors. Did they say that you don't have those other diagnoses and that you had been misdiagnosed? Or is it that it's kind of all part of the puzzle?Tony: We didn't really touch on it, but I do believe that it's all part of the puzzle.Laura: I mean, yeah, there's so much co-morbidity or co-occurrence between, for example, anxiety and ADHD, and depression and ADHD. And then you pull in the sleep issues as well. And that can make things extra tricky, right? Because if you're struggling with sleep, sleep can also affect your attention and your focus. So yeah, it sounds like that was a lot too to parse through.Tony: But yeah, once I did get diagnosed, it was this incredible feeling on like the first day where I'm like, oh, finally. It's something that could explain a lot. Like there was something off, I felt, in school. I was definitely the weird kid.Laura: What do you mean by that?Tony: Well, all the kids found me annoying. I vividly remember. "Annoying" was the word that they were using. So I started reflecting on that when I got my diagnoses. And I'd just think and remember, this is part of my impulsivity and hyperactivity as a kid. If someone told me not to do something, I'd feel compelled to do it just to see what would happen.Laura: Can you give me an example, please?Tony: Oh, like teachers told me not to bring toys to school. I brought toys to school the next day just to see what would happen. I needed that to not feel bored in school. Oh, this is a very good example. There was a specific rule for me and this girl that I was friends with back in school that we could never go near this table that was stone.Laura: OK.Tony: And what did I do? I climbed on the table and I broke it.Laura: Oh, my gosh. But you broke a stone table. Doesn't sound like a very strong stone.Tony: It was in two pieces. So when I sat on the edge, the top flipped over.Laura: Oh, were you OK?Tony: Oh, I was fine. But it was a lot of that where it felt like I had this curiosity that I couldn't control.Laura: Did you get in trouble at school?Tony: Oh, so much. So, when I was growing up, it was just Mom and I. And she was working a lot, so she never went to any of my teacher interviews. So when I was reading my report cards for the diagnoses and to give to the doctor, it was very clear that the teachers were trying to signal that I had ADHD. Because they used very textbook terms. It was a lot of "has trouble making friends in school," "has trouble staying on the task at hand," "needs to focus more in class." Yeah.Laura: Yeah, that's really hard. Do you have any siblings?Tony: I do. But when I was younger, we were immigrants, so it was just me and my mom at first. My sister came over to Australia years later.Laura: Where's your family from? You mentioned that you are immigrants.Tony: My family's from Vietnam. And the culture in Vietnam — we don't even have a word for ADHD or anything surrounding that. I was very fortunate to find like a translated Wikipedia article to send to my mom. And everything I've learned from the past year, I've passed onto her. And we found that she also has ADHD, and a lot of my family members has it as well.My mom went through this phase with me where she was panicking, because she thought she had like early-onset Alzheimer's. Because she kept forgetting things in like an ADHD way where she would like have very low active memory.Laura: So was your mom open to the idea of ADHD? Did she get diagnosed?Tony: No, no, no. She doesn't think it's worth it now because she's retired. But she was open to it, and it explained a lot to her as well. Particularly one thing was when she was working, she was kind of known as the dragon lady.Laura: Why?Tony: Because — so, she worked as a nail tech. So a lot of her job, like she would hyperfocus on doing what she was doing. And if anyone so much as like, spoke to her or touched or broke her out of that hyperfocus, she would snap. She would get angry.Laura: I understand that. Yeah, well, it sounds like you have a really nice relationship with your mom.Tony: Yeah, I think it's really good that she's open and I can talk to her about what's going on. And, yeah, we're still discovering new things about it. I have to say that my nephew probably also has it, and we're looking at getting him tested a little bit early. Because he's 11 years old right now, so it could help him with his school.Laura: How does that make you feel? I know that you have grieved lost time before being diagnosed. So how does it make you feel to talk about that?Tony: I am a bit jealous of him for being in a more aware environment now. But yeah, I'm happy that he gets this opportunity to sort of have more time to work on it — and work on it when there's no adult pressures.Laura: I totally understand the grieving of lost time. But wow, what a great gift that you can give by bringing this awareness to your family and helping your nephew maybe have more support than you got.Tony: Yeah. Even if he feels like he's not crazy growing up — perfect. Because I felt like I was insane growing up.Laura: Oh, I have a little tear in my eye, Tony. I'm really grateful to you and for bringing that light and awareness to your family. You briefly mentioned before some friendships that — I don't know if you said burnt out or they ended. Tell me about that.Tony: Looking back, I do have a lot of regret about this. But with the symptom of emotional dysregulation, my biggest thing was rejection sensitivity. So a lot of the time before I even realized it, if someone had like a party or like went to something and I didn't know about it, I would think that they didn't invite me on purpose. And I would just have this like snowball in my head of like, oh, they don't actually like me. And I would find it very easy to cut people out. And I've lost really good friends, I think, from that.And it's a lot of like being really sensitive to negative reactions from people. If they said something that was slightly offensive, I don't know. I would like have this train of thought in my head that would not stop and it would eventually always lead me to saying, oh, they're not worth it, I'm just gonna move on.For example, there was this one time where a group of friends of mine were getting together for drinks on a Saturday night. And I was doing something beforehand, but I told them I'll be there like an hour late. It's on at 7, I'll be there at 8. And when 8:00 rolled around, I sent a message, like, "Hey, guys, where you guys at? I'm on my way."And this was on Messenger, so you can see if people have seen the message. And I think some of them have and they didn't respond. So immediately I thought, oh my God, they don't want me there all of a sudden. These guys are being weird. It's not worth my time. I shouldn't. And it just kept snowballing, snowballing until I just stopped talking to them.And this train of thought happened in front of someone — my roommate at the time. And he had to sit me down the next day. It was like, whoa, that was really intense. Like, they probably just forgot to respond or they were checking — they saw it and they forgot to respond or something.Laura: I feel like I've been there a thousand times. And it's interesting to hear just because it's different than my reaction that you would kind of like just stop the friendship and be OK, that's — I guess it's just not worth it.My reaction was almost the opposite. And there's no better or worse reaction. But it was just — I would kind of grip really hard on the friendship and be like, hey, is everything OK? Is everything OK? Is everything OK? And then be kind of totally overbearing, like cringily overbearing with the friendship to make sure that, like, you still like me, right? Everything's OK? And it was just really awkward. And that's not — that's not healthy either. How do you cope with that now? Do you still experience that?Tony: I do, but I have learned to be very up-front. If something did happen, I can just be like, hey, just checking in. Is everything good? Most of my friends know I have ADHD now, and I've talked a lot about my symptoms. So I can just flag them if something is happening.Laura: Oh, cool. Can you pretend like I'm one of your friends? I'm interested to hear how you talk about your diagnosis and your symptoms to them.Tony: So I'm very late — a lot. I don't show up to things on time. And my friend, her name is Jing, she experiences that a lot. And at first, I think she would get annoyed. But then eventually, I kept telling them like, hey, I can't tell the time. I don't feel time passing as you do. So I am sorry if I'm late. I'm trying my best. But this is my best.Laura: That's great.Tony: And she understands. I've caught her setting times earlier now, just for that. And I appreciate it. But she doesn't do it all the time just because she likes to keep me on my toes.Laura: Wow. That's a really good technique. I like that a lot. Good job, Jing. That's a great idea.Tony: But yeah, I think it's really good to not be ashamed of having ADHD. And if I'm able to be up-front about it and explain to people what's going on in my head, it's a lot better for everyone.Laura: So the last time we chatted, you mentioned the ADHD tax — this idea that there's a price, like a literal price, that you pay as a result of ADHD symptoms like impulsivity and procrastination. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your perception of the ADHD tax and how it's affected you in your life.Tony: Probably the most expensive thing that I spent for ADHD tax is my university bills.Laura: Right?Tony: Just picking up courses, realizing I don't like them, and dropping them. Or like not handing in an assignment. Sometimes I fail them and have to do them again. That's probably the biggest one.But the most common one I would say is I cook a lot. Before my job now, I was a part-time cook.Laura: You have so many talents, Tony.Tony: Thank you.Laura: A lawyer, IT, cook. I love it.Tony: Well, I wouldn't say, Laura, I wasn't very good at that.Laura: But I'm giving it to you. You spent — you put in the effort.Tony: But yeah, I still cook a lot. And the big thing is I would over-make everything that I eat. Like I have like an inspiration one weekend to meal prep for the next week. And then I'll have the meal once and then I get sick of it. And then I just leave it in the fridge and I procrastinate, eating that one meal, and it just goes to waste.Laura: I love cooking. I get so stressed out about grocery shopping, because I know I'm going to do the exact same thing. I've got like three meals that are about to expire if I don't cook them soon, downstairs in my fridge.But I think when we chatted I told you about the most recent example of how the ADHD tax was affecting me. Which was that I had forgotten that I had bought my kids new winter coats.Tony: Oh, right. Yeah.Laura: And so I was like, oh man, I need to get my kids new winter coats. And then I ordered my son like a coat and my daughter a coat. And the coats arrived, and I realized that I had already bought them two winter coats that I hadn't even taken out of storage yet. Like I had bought them when they were on sale the previous year or something like that. And I couldn't return half of — I don't know, it was just a big mess. And I ended up spending all this money on coats that I didn't need, so I donated them.But nonetheless, like I was just like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what Tony is talking about.Tony: It's a lot of like, if it's not in — if I can't see it, I forgot about it.Laura: Yeah, exactly. But I think the university bill is, you know, that's a big one. I know that's — you've talked about that, you know, in this interview and we talked when we talked previously about your feelings around taking longer than your peers. Which I don't think is very uncommon, and I think it's totally fine. But it's expensive, to your point.Tony: Yeah. And it just feels bad when everyone's graduating and you see pictures and it's sort of like, oh. So before I got diagnosed, it happened. And like another part of what happened last year was just thinking that could've been me if I had found this out sooner. Yeah, it was just grieving over lost time.Laura: Do you feel like there's anything that was gained, though, during that quote-unquote lost time?Tony: So I'm in a place now where I can very much appreciate my ADHD. I try not to think about the lost time, because it kind of led me to where I am now. But I am able to now think very positively about it.One thing that I have been praised on a lot is I can process information very quickly. For example, when I was learning how to cook in the restaurant setting, it was in a physical environment. So I can use my hands, I can — I also had validation from the head chef. So what would take people two weeks to learn, I learned in about four days. Because I learned that how my brain works is I can quickly recognize like points and act on them very quickly, and just get this dopamine rush that keeps me going. So I like to say that I'm not a fast learner. I'm a very fast improver.Laura: I love that. "I'm not a fast learner. I'm a very fast improver." That's great.Tony: So I would get it wrong. But as soon as someone highlights where I got wrong? Fixed.Laura: Cool. What's next for you on your ADHD journey, Tony? What are you trying to tackle or cope with or enjoy?Tony: So, there's that ADHD tax issue that I'm working on. But one thing that I'm almost there — I'm so close to mastering it — is being so much of a yes man when someone asks me to do something. I get a lot of FOMO. Fear of missing out. So no matter how tired or how busy I am, if someone asked me if I would want to do something, I just forget that I have that feeling and I'm in the middle of something. And I would say yes, let's do it. And I've done it a lot. I have to backtrack like five minutes later. Like, I'm so sorry. I actually can't.Laura: Yeah.Tony: But it's a lot of that impulsive need to say yes to everything. And like that, emotional disregulation still comes up every now and then. Most recently, like during New Year's when, like, different people were going to different parties and I was like, oh, I wasn't invited to those. Hello. And then first taking it really personally. And then realizing that other people have different friends that they just hang out with. And it's just that — it's not that they hate me and they don't want to hang out with me. It's that they already said yes to something beforehand.Laura: Your stories are making me weirdly nostalgic. And — because I remember this as someone with ADHD, I remember a lot of these feelings. And then there's this magical thing that happens when you have kids. You're too tired to worry about anything, and you just go to bed. Like I was asleep at 9:30 on New Year's Eve.Tony: You said you were tired. Do you ever have this feeling where as soon as you lie down, you just get a second wind of energy?Laura: Yes.Tony: Yeah. That's a big problem for me. Yeah. I actually experienced a lot of sleep paralysis, and I think it happens because my body is falling asleep, but my brain is still widely awake. And one thing that I've done to deal with that is I need something to listen to that I don't really care about.Laura: Yes.Tony: And it just eases my brain into like sleeping. But if I don't have that, I can feel myself falling asleep. And it's just like heavy weight on my chest. And it's just...Laura: Totally. You are so on top of the game because I was — right before you said "something to listen to," I was going to recommend something. And it was actually — I'm not trying to just plug other podcasts that we have. But this was on another show that we have called "In It." But they did an episode on ADHD and sleep, and the expert that they interviewed on the show recommended like put on something that you — like I put on a TV show that I've seen a million times, but like just the sound of it. And I cannot fall asleep until that is just playing in the background. And then it's like I'm out. But if it's just silence or just sound machine, it's not enough for me.Tony: Because you start overthinking, right?Laura: Oh, yeah. And then I'm like, oh, I have to get up at this time. And every minute that passes is another minute that I'm not getting...Tony: And your brain remains just so active. Sorry. I'm — another symptom. I'm interrupting you in the middle of your sentence.Laura: No, not at all. I think you've been extremely polite.Tony: I interrupt people in the mid-sentence a lot, and immediately I catch myself. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I have ADHD. I don't know when you're done talking. So I'll just stay quiet and you just give me, like, a literal signal when you're done.Laura: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Tony, like, OK, so I have to say this. You — you're 24. I know that you feel like you lost a lot of time, and I guess, you know, it's all relative. But you at 24 have so many more coping techniques, and you are so much better at advocating for yourself.I didn't even get diagnosed till I was 30. So this is just — I don't know. I feel like you're ahead of the game. So just keep that in mind. It's really all about perspective, you know?Tony: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, jeez, That must've been hard. Did your world feel like it kind of flipped completely?Laura: Completely. But you know what? If it hadn't happened later in life, if I hadn't had the "aha" moment that I had, then I wouldn't get to be here talking with you, having the show. So.Tony: And I really appreciate that. I have a few people at work who think that they have ADHD as well, and I refer them to the show. Just because for me, specifically, it's a lot better than looking up symptoms and asking yourself oh, do I experience this? Do I experience that? Just hearing it from other people and what they have experienced and just pinpointing different scenarios was really good.Laura: Well, that's what we wanted to do. So thank you for saying that and for referring the show to other people. I agree. I think it's in hearing the totality in the context of a symptom, it actually puts a spotlight on it in a different way. It provides like the nuances of it.And I'm just really grateful to you for being here today. And I think you're fantastic. And you're bringing so much awareness and to your family and to friends. And I'm just so grateful that you're a listener and that you were here to talk with me today, Tony. Thank you so much.Tony: I was really excited about being on the show, because I feel like it kind of wrapped a bow on my last year. It was like the last year has been a character arc and this was like the big milestone at the end where I can finally reflect on what happened in the past year and share my story and sort of tell other people about it.Laura: I'm getting so emotional. Oh, my God, that's so beautiful.You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission."ADHD Aha" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

Video: Watching TV to improve social skills

Understanding social cues takes practice for kids. You may be surprised to hear that TV, when used correctly, can help. Watch as an expert shows a mom how to use TV to help her 10-year-old better understand emotions, behavior, and sarcasm.

To disclose…or not?

Who do you tell about your child’s learning and thinking differences? When? Does the explanation depend on the situation? And how are you preparing your child to own those ongoing disclosure decisions?Who do you tell about your child’s learning and thinking differences? When? Does the explanation depend on the situation? And how are you preparing your child to own those ongoing disclosure decisions?This episode, hosts Lexi Walters Wright and Amanda Morin tackle these questions. They talk with families whose experiences range from triumphant to cautionary — and in-between. You’ll hear from a mom whose daughter’s very public dyslexia disclosure turned her into an author. And from a parent whose son’s refusal to disclose cost him a scholarship.Advertising pro Wilson Standish shares why he’s still cautious about disclosing. And expert Manju Banerjee, PhD, gives tips to help parents with the sometimes-scary task of passing the torch to their young adult kids.Related resourcesTips for talking with family members about your child’s challengesPros and cons of disclosing learning and thinking differences at collegeFind community on the Wunder appEpisode transcriptAmanda Morin: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin, writer with Understood.org and a parent to kids with learning and thinking differences. Lexi Walters Wright: And I'm Lexi Walters Wright, community manager for Understood.org. And we are "In It." "In It" is a podcast from Understood for Parents. On our show we offer support and some practical advice for families whose kids are struggling with writing, social skills, motor issues and other learning and thinking differences. Amanda: And today we're talking about disclosure: who we tell, when we tell, and how we tell when it comes to our kids' learning and thinking differences. Lexi: So Amanda, will you kick us off: What is disclosure? What do we mean when we say the word "disclosure"? Amanda: Disclosure is a really fancy way of saying "talking about it." So when we're talking about our kids having learning and thinking differences, it's who do you tell that to? Disclosure is deciding to tell family. It's deciding to tell teachers. It's deciding under what circumstances it's a parent's job to talk about it, under what circumstances you throw that to your child to make that decision. So disclosure is a really big idea, right? It's something we talk about a lot when it comes to having kids with learning and thinking differences, because there are some circumstances where parents don't necessarily want to talk about it. And then there are other circumstances where it's really important to talk about it. Lexi: And so when does disclosure come up? Can you give us some examples of when you need to make the decision as a parent as to when or not to disclose? Amanda: Often it comes up in school first, because when a child's having trouble in school or struggling or needs a little support, it's time to start talking about it with teachers so they can help you figure out what support your child needs. And sometimes it's about coaches in the community, it may come up as well. And then I think as our kids get older, they need to start thinking about if they're going to disclose or talk about this with their friends. For example, a kid who struggles with reading may want to say something before they go out to a restaurant, because reading that menu may be a little tough for them too, right? Lexi: Well, you know, we recently got a voice memo from a mom that I think so beautifully gets at how daunting this process of disclosing can be, especially when it's new. Emily: Hi. My name is Emily. I am very new to all of this. I got my son's testing back recently, and they give you this big stack of papers that's all his information. And I was absolutely paralyzed. I felt like I did not know what to do. I didn't know who to talk to, who to go to, what my next steps were. And the background on this is that I am also an educator, of almost 20 years. And I have taught kids with various learning and thinking differences and I always thought, "Well, if, you know, one of my kids ends up with an IEP or issues in the classroom, I'll be one of those great parents that, you know, takes a deep breath and knows exactly what to do. And the fact was that I didn't, because it was my child. And I was scared and nervous and alone. And I just completely shut down. And I had the reaction that I didn't want to have, which was, "This is nobody's business but ours. This is our family. This is my child. Nobody needs to know about this, and — not nobody, like teachers need to know about this, right?” But not, like, general people. And that really shocked me and surprised me that that's sort of how I felt. Amanda: So we asked all of you how disclosure has worked in your family. And one dad told us he falls solidly into the Don't Tell camp.Dad: There are times when I will tell people, obviously, like teachers or people who interact with him heavily. But it's not something that I will say to someone up front. A lot of it has to do with the social stigmas that reside around the various things like ADHD, autism and learning disabilities that people have and how they interact with the people who have them. So I want my child to be treated as any other child is. And as a result, I don't tell people up front about it. So that they don't attach those labels to him. They may choose to avoid or shun him because, you know, “I don't want to have to deal with a child that has that condition.”Lexi: So clearly, decisions around disclosure are deeply personal for both parents and for kids. Amanda: Right. And on one end of this, you've got parents like the one we just heard from. Lexi: And on the other end... Ayelet: OK, so my name's Ayelet. I have three kids. My middle one, Leia, is dyslexic. She's currently 13, and she's in eighth grade. She loves anything expressive — everything from art to dancing, speaking — anything that allows her to express herself somehow is what she enjoys. Amanda: When we spoke to Leia's mom, she was at home in Staten Island. And she and Leia were both just getting over the flu. Lexi: Leia's dyslexia wasn't diagnosed right away, though Ayelet and her husband knew something was up during the first few years of school. Ayelet: So she was able to tell me everything about school: "Oh, in science we did this, then in this class we did that and this was so cool." And she would very happily discuss whatever she was learning. So we knew she was learning, but she was failing everything. So it never occurred to me that she couldn't read. But it dawned on me one day when I came home and I saw she was attempting to do homework. I guess she was kind of -- my husband was home, and he was trying to help her with it. But what I had walked into was like a screaming match: "I just can't do it. I don't know what to do." And she's hysterical and he's, like, not yelling at her but, like, you know, that frustrated parent, like, "Just copy what I wrote down." And I'm standing there and it was like, like, a moment where all time stood still. You know, I felt like I stood there for 20 minutes and it was literally three seconds. And I said, "Oh my God, my kid can't read." Lexi: And in that moment what, like, what did that mean to you? Ayelet: I think I had a lot of thoughts at the same time. I distinctly remember saying, "How could she make it to fourth grade and nobody picked it up?" And I'm a teacher. It just, I felt so upset, angry, you know, how could I not know? Things like that. Lexi: Ayelet and her husband took Leia to get an evaluation. Ayelet: And every item that identifies dyslexia, she hit it. She hit every single one. Amanda: But this isn't a story about dyslexia. Lexi: Right. That was last episode. Amanda: This one's about how kids and their families figure out when it makes sense to share a diagnosis and when to keep it private — whether it's dyslexia or a different diagnosis. For Leia and her parents, the process of figuring that out started pretty much the minute they walked out of the doctor's office after getting the diagnosis. Ayelet: We live on Staten Island and we had taken her to Manhattan for the evaluation, for the neuropsych. Just where it was, we ended up taking an express bus. It was just easier than driving and finding parking. So we had like an hour bus ride home. So we were on the bus, and she was like, oh, you know, "I get it, but I'm really embarrassed." She's like, "Do I have to tell people?" So I told her it was up to her. I said, you know, "There's positives to being open about it, and then there's maybe negatives, too. But you have to do what feels right for you, and you may want to keep it quiet for now and then later tell people." So she got very, very quiet and didn't say anything for a few minutes. She was just kind of looking out the window. And she said, "OK, I need to think about it." And I said, "OK." Lexi: Fast-forward a few weeks. Leia hadn't said much more about the diagnosis. She was just kind of doing her own thing. Ayelet: So she had been journaling for a while I guess. She had asked me for a folder. I got her folder. She filled it with paper and she would walk around the house, like, hugging it. And she would keep it in her room, and I just didn't question it. Because, you know, kids: stickers, papers, folders, you know. But after maybe three weeks, two weeks? I don't even remember. She's like, "Guess what?" I said, "What?" She goes, "I wrote a book." I said, "You did not." She goes, "No, I wrote a book. I really did." And I said, "OK, can I see?" She's like, "No. But can you type it for me if I read it to you." And I said, "Sure." So we sat at the computer. I typed, she read. And I'm sitting there, and I'm like, "OK, wow."Amanda: In those pages Leia and her mom typed up, she had written about her experience with dyslexia, and how what she understood and how she performed in school never seemed to match up for her. Leia also wrote about what she was learning about dyslexia. And she wrote about how she could stick up for herself when her teachers didn't seem to get it. Lexi: So Ayelet printed out the pages, and then Leia pasted them into a blank notebook and added illustrations. Amanda: And those illustrations are so cool. They're cartoons about her thought process. They're cartoons about what it was like to be in school — really neat. Leia thought other kids, kids like her, might like to read the book, and she asked her parents if they could publish it. Ayelet: So we decided to just go ahead and do it and see what happens. Amanda: And that's how Dyslexic Renegade was born. Leia: I'm Leia, 9 and in the fourth grade. I wrote this book when I found out I was dyslexic, because I thought there was something wrong with me — and there isn't. I don't want other kids to think like I did. "Dys" means "difficulty" in Greek, and "lexis" means "words" in Greek. So all it really means is that one person has a hard time with anything that has to do with words. But it doesn't mean we aren't smart. Lexi: Leia's self-published book has had hundreds of downloads. She now hosts a Facebook page for kids with dyslexia that has over 10,000 followers. Ayelet: People started like emailing, messaging, calling, like on Facebook. People everywhere were like, "Oh my God, this is amazing, like, this is just like my kid!" And, you know, and we were like, "Oh wow. All right." Lexi: Hey, it's Lexi, and from time to time we're going to try something new on "In It." Starting now. The response to our show so far has been amazing. We're so grateful to you, our listeners, for the reviews you've left and the friends and the teachers you've told about our show. We love hearing that "In It" feels to so many of you like you're hearing your own family's experience described. So we want to share some of the incredible messages you've recently left us about our first episode: "Why We Cry in IEP Meetings." Caller 1: I get very emotional easily — very easily. And I can feel it coming on, and I'm always thinking, "No, don't do it, don't do it." I just can't help myself. I think a lot of the crying comes from a place of — see, I'm going to get emotional just talking about it. But anyway, I think I just get to thinking about my son and all the kind of "what ifs" and "what could have been." So sometimes that does make me a little sad. Caller 2: So at the beginning, I didn't cry at IEP meetings. But now at the end, I've been through so many that sometimes I can't help myself. Caller 3: Being an educator, I know, I know what to ask. I know what to look for. Even still, you know, I think about all the families who just go along with whatever is said in those meetings and don't ever feel like they need to question or really advocate for their kids because they really don't understand, you know, all of the lingo and all of the language and, you know, it can be intimidating even for me being an educator for, you know, over 15 years. So anyhow, it gets emotional. It sucks to feel that your kid's not being fully supported. Lexi: And one more thing: Since this episode aired, we've created a new Understood video with Dena Blizzard, the mom in Episode 1 of "In It." Dena talks more about her daughter's learning differences and the path to understanding that anxiety was at the center of many of her struggles. Check out that video at U.org/dena. That's the letter U, dot o-r-g, slash d-e-n-a. And now back to the show. Lexi: So as we've seen in Leia's case, learning how to share this thing about herself with other people happened really quickly. But Amanda, I guess I'm curious: Is that typical? Amanda: I don't know that it is typical. It's really amazing to me that Leia not only wanted to talk publicly, but she wanted to talk very publicly about it all of a sudden. Sarah: Hello. This is Sarah from Omaha. One time where we did not disclose information about my child's disability was with my middle son who was going off to college. We chose not to disclose his diagnosis as twice exceptional with ADHD and slow processing. He was able to get by in high school because of how smart he was. But once he got to college he really struggled. After failing English 101 twice, his self-esteem plummeted and we finally got him on medication and started with the disability services at his college. However, his last term as his freshman year came around, and he had an instructor who wouldn't work with his disability services that were put in place, and he ended up losing his scholarship. Had we disclosed his disability to begin with, I think that his freshman year of college would have been a completely different experience for him. Lexi: Wait. So Amanda, you send your kid off, maybe to college or to live independently or whatever, and you're still not out of the woods with disclosure stuff? Amanda: Nope. That's especially because that's the point when you're really passing the torch, if you haven't already. Because out in the world when your child's an adult, legally an adult, it's going to be up to them to figure out how and when to talk about these issues. And the question is, how do you do that? Manju Banerjee: Prepared scripts don't work very well. Lexi: Manju Banerjee is the vice president of educational research and innovation at Landmark College, a school specifically for students who learn differently. And she says going out into the world on your own brings a whole host of new challenges around disclosure. Manju: You are trying to present your best persona, if you will, to be attractive to others. And you're starting to think about life mate. You know, it's the adult stage of one's life. So at that stage, do I have to disclose? "Well, you know, I have learning differences," or "I process information slowly," or "I can take you to a date but I need more time to calculate the tip." It can be really embarrassing. Amanda: In some cases, Manju says, our kids may decide not to disclose. And we have to let them make that choice. Manju: I think one of the things we need to do and get talking about disclosure, we, as adults and educators, really need to put ourselves in the shoes of the young adult or the child and understand where that reluctance is coming from. And you can't force self-advocacy. You really need to create a safe environment where self-advocacy can be practiced organically and have successful moments. Amanda: So let me ask you a question as a parent. I can create the safe environment in my home, right? And I can create it around them. What do I do to make sure that they are ready to be in a world that may not feel as safe to them? Manju: I think as parents the hardest thing for us is to let go — is to let go that end of the rope, because we've created that safe environment at home. We know when to jump in and help out. But I think it's important for us to have that confidence, that I've built a solid foundation. And there will be occasions where my son or daughter will do things that are absolutely illogical, that make no sense, and that's doomed for failure, and just have to stand back and let that process happen, because that's how we learn. Wilson Standish: Let me just ping the group and see if I can push it back a little bit. So hold on, give me one second. Lexi: Wilson Standish has very much launched into his adulthood. He works in the advertising arm of Gimlet Media and if like me you're a podcast junkie, Gimlet probably is familiar. He spoke to us from his office between meetings. Amanda: Wilson has dyslexia, but it's not something he shares with people right off the bat, especially at work. First, he says, he needs to build a relationship. Wilson: Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't want my first impression to be "dyslexic" for some reason.Lexi: Right. So it's not like you put it at the top of your resume as “special skills.”Wilson: No, no, not at all. Lexi: That said, once he's had a chance to build up some trust, he's OK if his dyslexia comes up organically. Wilson: It usually comes before I have to do a brainstorm with a group and write on a white board. And that's when I say it, and it's only after I feel like I've earned the trust of people, so they're like, "Oh it doesn't matter, we can trust him. He's smart, he does great work." And those are the moments where I feel comfortable doing it. Lexi: And what do you say? Wilson: You know, I kind of just say, like, "Hey, I'm really dyslexic," and I just move on. And I don't really, like, dive into it, because my hope is at that point that the work that I've done and I've produced — it doesn't even matter to them, the fact that I'm dyslexic. And it only comes up at times when I'm writing emails, and I'll totally miss something that, you know, can sound really bad. Like one time, I was writing, we, you know, I used to run the Innovation Group and I was writing about a hackathon that we're trying to have with the company. So I wrote this email to like 30 people and the subject said "Hackathong." And everybody, you know, had a lot of fun with that. And it's those moments where, you know, it's embarrassing, but you — just by getting ahead of it and owning it, I've found, you know, that it's OK. And then knowing that I have to just work a little harder to make sure that I outshine those moments. Lexi: Oh Amanda, hackathong! Amanda: I know. We all make those mistakes, right? Autocorrect is our enemy at that, and we laugh. But if like Wilson you're someone with a learning difference, those moments can feel so much bigger. Lexi: Do you feel like you've been more forthcoming in your professional experiences than your personal life? Wilson: Yeah, I think so, just because, you know, in my personal life I don't really have to write in front of people or read aloud. And those are the moments that are kind of the most intimidating. It only really comes up now when I'm, you know, driving or giving directions and I mix up my left and my right. Amanda: I do that too. Wilson: Yeah. No, I don't really, you know, I don't really think about it as much. And I just, I guess, like, well I know it's present and I know I have to work through it continuously. It's something that hasn't necessarily, like, been a defining thing that I think about all the time. Lexi: Ayelet, can you tell us, what advice do you have for parents and for kids who are just starting to find their way when it comes to sharing their learning and thinking differences? Ayelet: Huh. I don't know. I think it's so different for everybody. For us it works to talk about it a lot, and often, and just put it out there because it is what it is. You know, when you talk about it, you are also teaching other people who may not be aware and people may show you their ignorant side. You have to not take it to heart. Amanda: Ayelet's right. Choosing when and who you disclose to is different for everyone. Lexi: Which reminds me: Remember Emily, that great mom who we heard from at the beginning of this episode? She was the one who was drowning under the pile of papers from her son's diagnosis. She was not sure if she wanted to tell anyone about it. So, she actually had more to say on this. Emily: So I've been taking baby steps, and I've had some really great friends help me, let me practice with them and saying, “Oh this is really helpful for him when he gets anxious, or this is a little thing that we do to help him in certain moments.” And it's felt empowering and made me feel less alone, and has helped him feel like he knows himself better. Because at the end of the day, this is really about him gaining the skills and confidence to move through the world, and I need to be there for him. Thank you so much. That’s it. Bye.Amanda: You know, as another mom who's done that, that's a big deal. Like she's not 100 percent comfortable she's ready to talk about it yet, but she's doing it for him. That's a big step. Lexi: So Amanda, I just love that Emily mentions practicing with a friend, which just seems like such a solid way of making this more comfortable for families. But I imagine that there are so many instances in which families have to make the call on the fly. And in some of those cases, do you maybe not disclose, period? Amanda: Yeah. I mean there are times — we heard from the dad in the beginning of the show who says he doesn't talk about this, and that's totally fine. There are all of these variations, right Lexi? I mean, Emily practices with a friend, but we don't know who else she's told beyond that yet. And that's totally fine. Lexi: And are there circumstances in which you still will keep this information private for your family? Amanda: I'm not telling you that. Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," a podcast from Understood for Parents. Our website is Understood.org, where you can find all sorts of free resources for people raising kids with learning and thinking differences. Lexi: We would love to hear how your family has tackled the disclosure minefield. Go to you U.org/podcast to share your thoughts and also to find free resources. That's the letter U as in Understood, dot o-r-g slash podcast. Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it. It's a way to start talking about disclosure. Share it with a friend or just a parent at your bus stop. You can also go to Apple podcasts and rate us, which is a great way to let other people know about "In It."Lexi: You can subscribe to "In It" on Apple podcasts, follow us on Spotify, or keep up with us however you listen to podcasts. Between episodes you can find Understood on Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and YouTube, or visit our website: U, that's a letter U, dot org.Amanda: And come back next episode where we'll be talking about why math struggles can be so much more than anxiety about messing up your times tables.Lexi: "In It" is a production of Understood for Parents. Our show is produced by Blake Eskin of Noun and Verb Rodeo, Julie Subrin, and Julia Botero. Mike Errico wrote our theme music, and Laura Kusnyer is our director of editorial content.Amanda: Thanks for listing, everyone. And thanks to those of you who sent in voicemails and voice memos. And thanks to all of you for being in it with us.

ADHD, sleep apnea, and symptoms beyond the DSM (Roberto’s story)

Dr. Roberto Olivardia is a clinical psychologist with ADHD. While he was learning about ADHD for his career, the symptoms felt a little too familiar. Dr. Roberto Olivardia clinical psychologist ADHD expert diagnosed ADHD adult. learned ADHD career, signs felt familiar: impulsivity, trouble focus, more. procrastinated constantly college mischievous kid. even kicked Sunday school. Once got sleep apnea control, ADHD difficulties became even clearer — wasn’t you’d typically find DSM. (That’s handbook health care professionals use diagnosing things like ADHD.) Roberto host Season 2 Understood Explains, unpacks ins outs adult ADHD diagnosis. also two kids ADHD. Listen episode ADHD Aha! learn ADHD trouble sleeping, plus ADHD time zones (the “now” “not now”).Related resourcesDriven Distraction, Edward M. Hallowell, MD, John J. Ratey, MDHow ADHD affects sleep — helpIs ADHD sleep disorder?Understood Explains Season 2: ADHD diagnosis adultsEpisode transcriptRoberto: So, "aha" moment realizing, "Oh, beyond attention. beyond school." eat food spend money sleep plan activities things made much sense. "aha" moment recognizing ADHD really connected many things.Laura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha!," podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood. someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host.Laura: I'm today Dr. Roberto Olivardia. clinical psychologist Massachusetts. He's also Understood expert host Season 2 "Understood Explains" podcast, covers everything need know ADHD diagnosis adults. Super relevant show. show ADHD "aha" moments, know, Roberto, lot folks listening show may wondering, "Should get diagnosed ADHD?" So, we'll talk Season 2 "Understood Explains" get interview. welcome. Thanks here.Roberto: Oh, it's pleasure, Laura. Always pleasure talking things ADHD.Laura: Well, let's get started. diagnosed ADHD adult, right? makes apt host Season 2 "Understood Explains." So, don't start telling listeners diagnosed ADHD?Roberto: So, officially diagnosed 35. However, realized that, "Oh, it, like ADHD," probably 30, 31, know, tell people keep mind, I'm 50. so, young, kids diagnosed ADHD kids pretty serious conduct disorders, probably lot undiagnosed learning disabilities, kids might poor social skills, hyperactive, impulsive.And even though hyperactive, wasn't hyperactive antisocial way oppositional way. mischievous, don't get wrong, within sort boundary, well school, even though hated school. So, wasn't identified back then.So, nothing throughout life ever see affiliation knew time ADHD. Even graduate school late 20s, learned it, frankly wasn't lot, that's indictment particular program. ask lot colleagues this: "How much learn ADHD clinical psychology PhD program?" people say "very, little."So, wasn't patients started private practice, treating issues like eating disorders OCD bipolar disorder, also happened ADHD. suddenly I'm like, "Oh, let learn ADHD," would read it. one things I'm reading it, like slowly, like, "Oh, understand that. Oh, makes sense me. relate that." wasn't much like fireworks epiphany like people, certainly lot patients diagnosed ADHD. familiar sense of, "Oh, me. Oh, yeah, makes sense." actually something validating, felt good about.Laura: signs stories relating most, like angle ADHD? flavor?Roberto: Yeah, think first specifically remember patient sleep apnea. struggling depression. eating disorder also sleep apnea ADHD. reading sleep apnea, thought, "Oh, like lifetime sleep issues." mean, sleepwalker, sleep talker, sleep paralysis. severe sleep apnea, night terrors, name it. So, would read sleep apnea would read connection ADHD sleep, thought, "Oh gosh, makes much sense." So, remember like first angle perspective.And reading executive function issues around procrastination, lot times think past, would think, "Oh, people..." honestly think culturally people still solely see ADHD, person procrastinates doesn't get done. certainly, affect lot people ADHD. part, least school, one always got done. would night. would literally, mean, college running across campus get paper professor's mailbox 5 p.m., mean, that, would get done.And so, started reading that, like, "Oh, wait minute, people ADHD, procrastinate pull off," me. started sort reading broad sense impulsivity, it's like, OK, well, maybe haven't issue this, this, that, always identified knew intuitively addictive personality — anything like like much quickly. And, level, friends growing people issues related it.I didn't see different individuals — even individuals might conduct disorders issues. hung lot kids. mischievous side younger, kind liked little bad. little dangerous.Laura: I'm going ask that, don't worry.Roberto: So, read that, thought, Oh, honestly, much. don't think lot written ADHD '80s, mid '90s. mean, think Ned Hallowell's book, "Driven Distraction" written in, think '94, '95, that's adult ADHD even talked about, kind nuts. like "Where people think went? Like 18 vanished?"Laura: Right. Suddenly executive functioning issues, won't problem college.Roberto: life, right?Laura: Yeah, exactly. So, OK, that's, taking notes. So, number one, ADHD sleep, folks may recognize Roberto's voice actually published bonus episode "In It" talking ADHD sleep "ADHD Aha!" feed, great. want ask little bit that. next thing mentioned procrastination, still getting done. So, like latching onto urgency, sounds like. mind go back little bit ADHD sleep?Roberto: Sure. Absolutely.Laura: quick explanation connection ADHD sleep. encourage folks go back feed listen full explanation, I'm curious interact, also played life.Roberto: Yeah, lot research done ADHD sleep, think honestly, know tip iceberg. know centers brain are, particularly frontal lobe, activated implicated sleep. One best quotes ever heard, don't, wish could credit don't know said it, actually first ADHD conference went 2008, speak every year. said, "For someone ADHD, going sleep lying dark room waiting nothing happen." was, totally made sense thought it's unstimulating it's kind boring. Like you're waiting to, "OK, happening? Like, going to...?"And course, mind thinking it, know, much. it's easy there's stimulation ADHD person generate stimulation we're so, need that. Like brain, dopamine deficit. So, we're always seeking stimulation. sleep, you're kind of, job de-stimulate, really hard.And psychological components well. mean, nighttime also less distractions, one's expecting anything nighttime. college grad school, nothing distract me, better zone work. sometimes nighttime level procrastination would get day. OK it's do-or-die situation kind thing.So, there's something that. it's even work. Sometimes could be, "I don't want let go day I've fun downtime." I'm very, productive throughout day, years ago could literally nothing day. kind wasting day procrastinating yet

Fortnite and kids with ADHD or social skills challenges: 7 things I tell parents

I played the video game Fortnite the other day with my teen grandson. As an educator, I’ve worked with thousands of kids with ADHD, social skills challenges, and similar challenges. And I wanted to know more about how Fortnite might affect them.Fortnite is an online, multiplayer shooter video game. It’s free and can be played on a computer, on a gaming system like the Xbox, or on a mobile device. The most popular game mode is Battle Royale, where 100 players drop onto an island, try to find construction materials and weapons, and fight each other to be the last person (or team of people) standing. Players can talk to one another, and each game lasts 20 minutes. To get a sense of what it’s like, imagine an arcade version of the film The Hunger Games.Fortnite has taken the world by storm. As of 2021, there are more than 80 million active users every month. There are news reports of kids playing at all hours of the day, late at night, and even under their desks at school. And many experts have weighed in on whether the game is good for kids.What hasn’t been addressed is the impact on kids with learning and thinking differences. After playing Fortnite, I have some specific things for parents of kids with ADHD and social skills issues to keep in mind.1. The age recommendation for Fortnite is 13 and up, but each child is different.The Entertainment Software Ratings Board rates Fortnite “T” for teen, which means ages 13 and up. Common Sense Media, an Understood founding partner, also recommends the game for kids 13 and up, because of its action violence and open chat. This is a good starting point.However, you know your child best. Some “tweens” can handle the action. But other kids with ADHD or who struggle with social interaction may not be mature enough. Or they may need more supervision. You’ll need to make a personal decision regarding your child.2. Kids with ADHD can get absorbed by Fortnite and need limits.Kids with ADHD can get hyperfocused on things that interest them. That can happen with any video game, and Fortnite is no exception.If you allow video game screen time (with Fortnite or any other game), it’s important to have clear rules and set limits about when and where. How much time each day? How will your child transition to other activities when needed? Fortnite, like many other video games, also allows players to spend real money on in-app purchases. If your child is impulsive, you’ll need to address this too.3. Kids need explicit guidance on Fortnite (and screen time).Kids with ADHD or social skills issues need rules spelled out clearly. After you decide on screen time rules, I encourage you to talk to your child as directly as possible about them.At the same time, be willing to listen. A lot of kids want to play Fortnite because it’s a hot topic among their peers in middle and high school. That’s not a reason to let your child play if you feel it’s not appropriate. But it’s important to be open to your child’s feelings.4. If you don’t allow Fortnite, your child may find a way to play anyway.If you don’t allow Fortnite at home or elsewhere, your child may be tempted to play behind your back. The game is present at school, summer camp and friends’ houses, where you can’t monitor your child’s use.Again, that’s not a reason to allow Fortnite, but it is something to consider when you set rules. If you don’t allow it, there are videos of people playing the game on YouTube, and you may want to watch one of those videos with your child. That will at least give your child enough background to talk about the game with friends.5. Fortnite may encourage kids to practice planning, collaboration, and teamwork.After I played Fortnite with my grandson, I realized that the game requires a lot of skill. Players need to gather equipment, build forts, and fight battles. These tasks require executive functioning skills like flexible thinking and planning. Team play is also a big part of Fortnite. Playing in a duo team or four-person squad requires teamwork and collaboration.All players must learn to escape potential danger, think on their feet, and be alert to external threats and changes. These are the same skills that can trip up many kids with ADHD in their daily lives. Some practice developing these skills in a game format could actually help kids when they’re not playing.6. Player communication in Fortnite can be good for social skills development.In Fortnite, players chat with their partners or squads as they try to win. This can have positives for kids who struggle to connect with other kids. It gives a reason to talk about strategy and find common ground with peers.At the same time, players can also communicate with strangers in Fortnite. This can be risky, especially for younger players. It’s important to be aware of this and take precautions. On some devices — the Xbox, for instance — you can turn off voice chat in the parental control settings.7. The violence in Fortnite is less than other games, but keep a close eye on your child.While playing Fortnite, I noticed very little blood and gore. There’s less graphic violence compared with other shooting games, like Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto. Still, violence is part of the game. In Battle Royale, for example, players try to eliminate enemies in combat using weapons.Research hasn’t established a clear link between playing violent video games and engaging in physical or criminal violence. However, there is evidence that video games can lead to aggressive thoughts and behavior, as well as leading to less empathy in kids. This is a hotly debated area in which experts don’t always agree. My advice is to keep a close eye on your child’s video game play. If your child has ADHD or social skills issues and is playing excessively, it’s time to reinforce screen time limits in clear terms. Allowing your child to play a video game like Fortnite is a personal family decision — and it’s OK to say no. Keep in mind, however, that video games and screens are here to stay. Whatever you decide, make sure you have a plan when your child asks for a chance to play.For more information about Fortnite, check out Common Sense Media’s guide to the game. Watch as an expert explains the pros and cons of video games for kids with ADHD. And read an expert’s take on the popular game Minecraft.Any opinions, views, information, and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions, or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.

IEPs: How do kids qualify for IEPs?

Host Juliana Urtubey explains the school evaluation process for special education. Kids don’t just get an IEP all of a sudden.Schools have an evaluation process to decide if a child qualifies for special education services. This includes getting an IEP. On this episode of Understood Explains, join host Juliana Urtubey as she discusses the evaluation process and requirements for getting an IEP. She’ll also share what to do if the school says your child doesn’t qualify for an IEP and more. Timestamps[00:37] How do kids qualify for IEPs?[03:14] Does my child need a diagnosis to get an IEP?[04:45] How do I request an evaluation?[06:12] What if the school wants to wait to evaluate my child?[08:10] What if the school says my child doesn’t qualify for an IEP?[08:49] Key takeaways Related resources Understood Explains Season 1 on special education evaluationsDownload: Sample letters for requesting evaluations and reportsWhy your child’s school may deny your evaluation requestEpisode transcriptJuliana: Kids don't get an IEP all of a sudden. The school needs to do an evaluation and decide if your child qualifies for special education. I'm going to explain how this process works. From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "Understood Explains IEPs." On this episode, we'll talk about how to get an IEP and what to do if the school says your child isn't eligible. My name is Juliana Urtubey and I'm the 2021 National Teacher of the Year. I'm also an expert in special education for multilingual learners, and I'm your host for this season of "Understood Explains," which is available in English y en español. Let's get started.[00:37] How do kids qualify for IEPs?How do kids qualify for IEPs? There are two big things that need to happen to qualify for an Individualized Education Program, or IEP. The first thing is, your child needs to get an evaluation. Public schools have a whole process for evaluating kids using a team of professionals. It's free for families, and I'm going to talk more about this in a minute. The second big thing is called eligibility determination. This is what happens at the end of the evaluation process. To qualify for an IEP, the school needs to determine that your child has a disability and that the disability negatively impacts how your child is doing in school. There's a jargony phrase that schools use for this. "The disability needs to adversely affect your child's educational performance." And by the way, educational performance can be viewed very broadly. It's not limited to academics. Kids can qualify for IEPs because they have a disability that affects their attention, behavior, social skills, etc. So to recap, to get an IEP, your child needs to get evaluated by the school and the evaluation team needs to find that your child has a disability that adversely affects your child's education. OK, so where did these requirements come from? They're part of a federal law called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. or IDEA. And there are three things that I want to highlight about this part of the law. First, public schools have a big responsibility. They must identify and evaluate any kids who may need special education. This is called Child Find, and it's the first step towards getting kids the support they need to thrive in school. Second, not all kids with disabilities will qualify for IEPs. Maybe your child doesn't need specially designed instruction or services. Maybe all your child needs is some assistive technology or classroom accommodations. If so, the school may recommend a 504 plan, which we talked a little bit about in Episode 2. Third, to qualify for an IEP, the school needs to determine that your child has a disability that falls into one of the 13 categories in IDEA. Now, this doesn't mean the law only covers 13 disabilities. It means that there are 13 really big buckets of disabilities. For example, ADHD is covered under the category called Other Health Impairments. This season we're going to have a whole episode about disability categories. But, for now I'll just say that even if your child has a really rare disability, they can still qualify for an IEP. The key thing is that the disability needs to adversely impact your child's education. [03:14] Does my child need a diagnosis to get an IEP?Does my child need a diagnosis to get an IEP? This is a very common question, and the official answer is no, or at least no in the way most families think about having to go to a doctor to get a medical diagnosis. Schools don't diagnose kids. They do something a little different, which is identify a child as having a disability. So no, you don't need to get a diagnosis from your health care provider. But if you want to, you can share a diagnosis with the school evaluation team. OK, so what does an evaluation look like? Schools do special education evaluations for free. And they have to complete them within a certain time frame, usually within 60 days. But this can vary a bit from state to state. The team will use this time to gather data from a bunch of sources to help decide if your child qualifies for an IEP. Evaluations often include special tests, observations in your child's classroom, and interviews with family members and teachers. And if your child is learning English, their language instructor will help with the evaluation too. As a parent or guardian, your participation is really important. The team cannot evaluate your child without your permission. And the more you work together, the more you can help keep the evaluation centered on your child's strengths as well as your child's needs. If you want to learn more about evaluations, check out the first season of "Understood Explains," which is all about getting evaluated for special education. [04:45] How do I request an evaluation?How do I request an evaluation? So, before we get into this, I want to mention that there are two ways to start the evaluation process. Either the school can reach out to you in what's called a referral, or you can request an evaluation. Season 1 of "Understood Explains" has a whole episode about this exact topic. Here are some highlights. The first step in requesting an evaluation is finding out who you should send the request to. Your child's teacher should know. But this is also a good time to ask the school's front office if there's a community liaison or a family support provider. Lots of school districts have this type of person who can help you navigate the system. The next step is to put your request in writing. Write an email or a letter that includes the month and day you sent it, because that date is important. By law, schools must respond within a certain time frame, which varies from state to state. As you're writing your letter, be sure to describe why you're requesting an evaluation. Try to be as specific as possible. You can say things like, "My child has a lot of trouble with spelling. He studies hard, but he can't remember how to spell even the most basic words. And I'm concerned he may have a learning difference or disability. He may need more support at school." If you need help getting started on your letter, we have some templates on Understood.org. I'll put a link in the show notes. [06:12] What if the school wants to wait to evaluate my child?What if the school wants to wait to evaluate my child? This can be a tough situation to be in. I know a lot of parents don't want to be seen as the squeaky wheel, or maybe feel like it's not their role to tell the school what to do. But you know your child best. So, if you think it's time to evaluate your child, advocate for it. And remember, special education law says that schools need to be actively looking for kids who may have a disability. Now, I want to be clear. Schools don't have to say yes to every request for an evaluation. But sometimes schools want to wait for reasons that aren't allowed. And I want to give you two examples. If your child is struggling, the school may try an instructional intervention. But here's the thing about interventions. They're designed to take several weeks so the school can see how your child responds to this kind of intensive instruction. The goal is to give the child effective support and time to show progress. But let's say you're pretty confident that you're seeing signs of dyslexia or ADHD or whatever you think might be going on with your child. You don't have to wait until the end of the intervention to ask for an evaluation. You can wait if you want to. Or you can remind the school that an intervention is not a valid reason to delay or deny your evaluation request. Another example is if your child is an English language learner, or what I prefer to call a multilingual learner. It's not uncommon for multilingual kids to fall behind their peers while they learn formal academic English skills. So, the school might just think your child needs more language instruction and not special education. But that's not a valid reason for delaying an evaluation. You can request an evaluation for special education even if your child is still learning English. One thing that can be a big help is to let the school know if your child is struggling with things like reading or speaking in your home language. Understood has an article about some common reasons why a school might deny your request and how you can respond. We'll put a link in the show notes. [08:10] What if the school says my child doesn’t qualify for an IEP?What if the school says my child doesn't qualify for an IEP? So, if this happens, you have some important rights. Schools have to explain in writing how they made their decision. If you disagree, you can get something called an independent educational evaluation. And in some cases, the school may even be required to pay for this private evaluation for you. You can also ask for mediation with a neutral third party or a due process hearing, which is kind of like a mini trial. And we're going to talk more about your dispute resolution options later in the season. [08:49] Key takeaways OK, before we go, let's sum up what we've learned with a few key takeaways. First, your child doesn't need a medical diagnosis to get an IEP. The school needs to do an evaluation and find that your child has a disability that negatively impacts their learning. You can ask the school to evaluate your child, but the team cannot get started until you give your consent. And lastly, you have a lot of legal rights in this process. Remember, you know your child best. And you can be a powerful advocate to help your child thrive. All right. That's it for this episode of "Understood Explains." Next time we're talking about IEP disability categories. You've been listening to "Understood Explains IEPs." This season was developed in partnership with UnidosUS, which is the nation's largest Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization. Gracias, Unidos! If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we've mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission. CreditsUnderstood Explains IEPs was produced by Julie Rawe and Cody Nelson, with editing support by Daniella Tello-Garzón. Video was produced by Calvin Knie and Christoph Manuel, with support from Denver Milord.Mixing and music by Justin D. Wright.Ilana Millner was our production director. Margie DeSantis provided editorial support, and Whitney Reynolds was our web producer.For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Special thanks to the team of expert advisors who helped shape this season: Shivohn Garcia, Claudia Rinaldi, and Julian Saavedra.

8 tips for helping kids with social skills challenges cope with the holiday season

Holiday events are supposed to be fun. But when kids have trouble with social skills, these events can pose challenges and create stress. Use these eight simple tips to help your child successfully navigate this very social season.1. Practice hellos and goodbyes.The more you practice, the easier it will be for your child to call up the right words. It doesn’t have to be a lot: “Hi, it’s nice to see you!” and “Thanks for having me — I had a good time” will usually do it. 2. Tell your child what to expect.Let your child know how the day will unfold. (If you’re not sure, ask your hosts in advance.) You might say something like, “When we get there, the kids will be watching football or playing downstairs. After an hour, we’ll have dinner. The kids will sit at their own table. Then it’s dessert, and then we’ll go home.” Your child may feel more relaxed knowing what’s going to happen next. You can also brainstorm ways to handle certain situations.3. Script some conversation starters.Help your child develop some general questions to break the ice with other kids. Some ideas: “Do you play any sports?” or “What shows do you like to watch?” With older kids, come up with a few news items about sports or celebrities to talk about.4. Help your child join a group.Before you head off to mingle with the adults, help your child get settled. If the kids are playing charades — and your child doesn’t enjoy that game — ask if they need a timekeeper. Or if it’s a game your child does like, you can help by saying something like, “Jamie would love to play too. Do you have room for another player?”5. Role-play opening presents.If there’s going to be a gift exchange, have your child practice opening presents and saying thank you. Rehearse the possible scenarios: Not liking the gift, already having one, or loving it. You can take turns acting out how to sound grateful whatever the situation.6. Help your child make conversation with adults.It’s natural for adults at holiday gatherings to ask kids what they’ve been up to. Kids with social skills challenges may not like talking about school or their achievements and activities. Set your child up to have something positive to say in response to these questions. For example, “Why don’t you tell Aunt Emma about how you trained our new puppy?”7. Go over hosting duties.Having the get-together at your house can be a plus. Your child may feel more comfortable at home. You may want to give your child a job, like answering the door and showing people where to put their coats. Remind your child to let the guests pick the movie or the game to play. And if it’s an adult-oriented event, you may want to let your child wander off to do kid stuff after saying hello. Kids who have already attended several holiday events may have had enough.8. Point out what your child did well.If your child did a nice job saying thank you, or had a nice conversation with cousins, be sure to mention it afterward. Recognition can mean a lot — and give your child more confidence going into the next holiday event.

Rejection sensitivity, ADHD drain, and the power of failure (Weston’s story)

Getting diagnosed with ADHD (along with anxiety and panic disorder) helped Weston be kinder to himself and accept his ADHD brain for how it works.  “The cup that is draining.” That’s how musician and content creator Weston Gardner describes ADHD’s effect on him. He’d spent his whole life feeling like he couldn’t do things that came so easily to everyone else. Weston was at his wits’ end. Getting diagnosed with ADHD (along with anxiety and panic disorder) has helped him be kinder to himself and accept his ADHD brain for how it works. Weston is a musician and content creator who goes by Arcane Anthems (@arcaneanthems). His music sets the scene for podcasts, Twitch streams, tabletop games like Dungeons & Dragons, and more. This episode is guest hosted by ADHD Aha! alum Cate Osborn. Cate, aka @catieosaurus, is a content creator and co-host of Catie and Erik’s Infinite Quest podcast. Listen to this week’s episode to hear Cate and Weston talk about ADHD and gaming, rejection sensitivity, and the power of failure.Related resourcesADHD and rejection sensitive dysphoriaEmotional sunburn: What rejection sensitivity feels likeIn It podcast: The benefits of gaming for kidsEpisode transcriptLaura: Hey, listeners! There's good news for me and also good news for you. I'm going on an extended vacation. And we thought that would be a great opportunity to invite one of our favorite ADHD podcasters, Cate Osborn, to fill in for me for a couple of episodes. You may remember Cate, aka Catieosaurus, from our episodes on ADHD and hormones and ADHD and sex. Cate is a content creator and host of the podcast "Catie and Erik's Infinite Quest." You're in good hands with Cate. So enjoy, and I'll be back soon.Weston: Once I realized that embracing who it was that I was, embracing the limitations that I had, I found that vulnerability, that clarity, to be one of the greatest strengths.Cate: Hi, everybody, and welcome back to "ADHD Aha!" I'm not Laura. My name is Cate Osborn. I go by Catieosaurus on all the corners of the internet where I am a full time content creator focused on neurodivergent intimacy and accessibility and gaming. Your wonderful host, Laura, is currently on sabbatical.And so the kind folks at Understood.org have asked me to step in to her very large and impressive shoes and guest host for this episode. And I'm so honored and excited to be here with my very first guest, Weston Gardner, aka Arcane Anthems. Weston is a musician and a composer with ADHD. Weston, tell the people what you do.Weston: Hey everyone. I run Arcane Anthems, which is kind of my online persona. I write tabletop music for Dungeons & Dragons games, for podcasts, for Twitch streams, and YouTube channels, and all of the above. So I get to work in all sorts of different styles and genres, and I get to constantly research new stuff. It's very good for somebody with ADHD like me, who gets to consistently change up what they're doing, learn something new, and use my skills in like new and unique ways all the time.Cate: So I'm so curious, and I love this because I feel like we have been to so many conventions together. But I've never gotten a chance to just ask you about what you do. So this is my shot and I'm taking it.Weston: Bring it on. Hit me.Cate: First, for all of the lovely listeners at home, I feel like we should spend at least a couple of minutes talking about what tabletop role-playing games are, and why they might be important to somebody with ADHD. Do you want to take that one?Weston: I always tell people it's the feeling of watching an epic fantasy movie, but it's — you're in it and it's your own. And it's you and your friends.Cate: That's a great way to do that.Weston: That's the way I like to describe it. Because in my musical life, I always describe what I do and the importance of what I do when describing it to movies or to video games, right? The importance of having music in a movie is the same as, you know, having it in a video game or having an any form of media, where it drives the emotion of the storyline.And so what I do is I support that role playing around a table you and your friends are sitting around. You have somebody who's kind of in charge of the world. And you have everybody else who's in charge of their own character and their own personas. And you create a story together within the confines of whatever rule system you're using.The one that everybody knows is Dungeons & Dragons, right? So that's just a rules system. That's just the physics of the world and how the game runs. But the story you're telling is the really important part.Cate: One of the things that is fascinating about that entire sort of genre of entertainment is that there is a lot of evidence and a lot of studies that are coming out about the benefits of playing games like Dungeons & Dragons or other tabletop role-playing games on the neurodivergent brain, on the ADHD brain. They can be especially helpful for things like processing executive dysfunction and the learning how to support yourself and developing social skills and all that kind of stuff.So there's a lot of like gameplay elements, but they can also be incredibly therapeutically beneficial, which I think is like really cool. And so that's why I'm so excited that you're here with me because we get to talk about creativity today.But first, before we do that, Laura would be so very sad and disappointed if I didn't ask you to talk a little bit about your journey to an ADHD diagnosis, and what your ADHD "aha" moment was when it came to sort of accepting that and learning about your brain for the first time.Weston: Well, mine starts very much with me in school. I think those are my earliest memories of me going to school and feeling like somebody who understood concepts very well, who tried very hard, who was among the kids who were, quote unquote, like more advanced. But I always felt something was missing. I just didn't understand how everybody else could do things that I couldn't do.I would write one paragraph and they would have four pages done. And it was this gaping hole in my learning, and it plagued me. It was actually one of the reasons that I dropped out of college. It was like there was a — like I was drinking out of a glass that had a hole in the bottom. And I could never really fill it up enough to satisfy my thirst or to keep up.And it wasn't until I had a breakdown in my early 30s — between work and being a dad and being a husband and managing all these other things — that I realized, you know, something isn't right. Something about me is different enough that things that seem normal to everyday people aren't normal to me, to everyday Weston, right? And so I — luckily the job that I was at had some really great kind of social services type benefits, right? And I was able to see a therapist. And I was able to see a psychiatrist. And they very quickly diagnosed me with ADHD and anxiety and panic disorder.And I — like what a pivotal, monumental moment in my life to hear those words and to hear that validation. And the change that it's had in my life, and the change that it's had in my family's life and my extended family's lives, in my siblings' lives, has been so important to understanding that our brains just work differently. And all of a sudden, all the shame and all the guilt that I felt growing up for not being able to catch up, not being able to keep up, was gone.Now for me, I know that I work differently. I know that I need to do things in a way that is going to support these conditions that I have, the way that my brain works, right? As opposed to constantly fighting against them, constantly feeling that I'm lazy or that I'm stupid or that I'm incapable of doing normal things. It has opened up my eyes to a world of understanding and acceptance and compassion. And I'm just so grateful for those diagnoses, honestly.Cate: Oh, my gosh. I love that you were talking about the cup that is draining. That's such just like a poignant image that just is like, oh, my gosh, I feel that exactly. So when we talk about that sort of like ADHD drain, I guess we'll call it for right now. When you started deciding that what you wanted to do was music, what you wanted to do was this like career based in creativity and creation and that kind of stuff. Did you find that that sort of drain went away?Weston: I was in the music industry for about 10 years, making music, playing shows in a band. And that did help me a lot to recognize that that kind of structurelessness and self-managing worked well for me. And then I got into a kind of a corporate retail job where I had to be on during these specific hours. And I had to do these certain things. And I needed to be there on time. And I — there was all these "hads" and "shoulds," and all these things that I needed to fit into somebody else created.And that I think was the biggest problem — was my brain with ADHD doesn't work like everyone else's brain works. And so when you're trying to shove me into a box that somebody else created, it's going to be extremely uncomfortable for me. And it's not going to work, especially if I don't understand why I don't fit. And I'm trying to remember the initial question. Uh, yes.Cate: That was OK. That was exactly, yeah.Weston: Moving into music, and in particular into social media, into music creation, into connecting with people, I have found that being able to use an expertise and a passion of mine, and working when I can work. And then also recognizing that there are going to be times when I will sit down and not be able to do the thing that I've been doing for 20 years. And that it's not because I'm dumb. It's not because I'm stupid. It's not even because it's a creative block that people talk about all the time.It's because my brain is just like, not today. There's no dopamine here today for you. You will not be as creative today. You will not be able to do these things. And instead of me saying, "No, I will do them!" and pushing through and blaming myself and getting angry, I'm like, OK, well, what can I do today?Cate: So I am a content creator, and you are a content creator. And I think the most dangerous and stressful part of being a content creator is that there is an expectation that you make content like all the time, constantly. So how do you balance that? How do you balance the kind of like, OK, I have to make the content. I have to make the video, you know, to bring people over to my music, to my creative process. But also my brain is screaming at me, you know, not today, not today. You know, I got nothing to give. Like, what do you do on those days?Weston: I have a lot of coping mechanisms and techniques that I've used so that I can do those things. And there will be days when you just cannot, you know, where it is a zero. And it's not even that there isn't something that you could do. It's that you can't figure out what that is. So that pushed aside, most of the time I — there's this idea in product development called a minimum viable product. So I like to say, OK, what is the very smallest teeniest, tiniest thing that I can do to check a box today and maybe like kick-start my brain?It's like one of those old cars where you have to kind of turn turn the rotor on them, right? Maybe doing this small little thing and accomplishing this tiny little thing will kick-start the rest of it. So I have these minimum viable products. And with content creation, sometimes it's just using an audio and recording like a three-second video.Sometimes it won't even be work related. Sometimes it'll be, oh, I'm just going to walk outside. And the reason I say that is that there's all these things in my life that I know that my brain needs. I need to move my body. I need to see the sunshine. I need to make sure that I'm drinking and eating food. There's all this kind of basic needs that as somebody with ADHD, it's very easy to neglect those things. Maybe I'll just put that one thing away. Maybe I'll gather my dishes from my desk. And maybe today is just a gather dishes from the desk day and move it to the kitchen day. And that's what I did that day.Cate: I did not come here to be attacked in this way. How dare you, sir?Weston: So I very visibly see those tiny things as victories, because I'm not fighting the same battles as neurotypical people. I need to recognize that me doing that small thing is a victory, just like somebody else working, you know, all day on a thing is a victory for them.Cate: One of the things that I'm so curious about, and it almost sounds silly when I say it out loud, but I think you're really hitting on this idea of how recognizing your needs, honoring them as a neurodivergent person, helps to sort of fill that cup. And then from that cup you kind of can draw your creativity. You can draw that sort of like process of making and composing and being a musician and all of those like really exciting things that you do. So that's not a question. But I just wanted to say that because I think that's neat. Good job, Weston. You're going a great job.Weston: The idea of shame, the idea of failing, the idea of all those things is a very powerful trend in neurodivergent people. And for me personally, it goes deep into this idea of that rejection dysphoria that at least I experience extremely heavily. The idea that you will fail people, will view you as a failure, and it will not be OK if you let people know that you're not all right.And the best way that I have found to remove the power that failure has over me is to understand that for me, failing is a way that I become better. Failing is a way that I grow. And it doesn't mean that my rejection euphoria goes away — dysphoria goes away. Can you imagine? Rejection euphoria? No.Cate: I feel like, yeah. Reject me!Weston: Reject me! Those emotions are something that is almost like a learned behavior with people who are neurodivergent. And unpacking those things in a personal, professional relationship sense and becoming very just like open about the ways that you feel with people, has been very vital to me to overcoming the spiraling that can happen when you begin to feel those emotions.Cate: I love that you say that because I'm also fascinated in how that shows up in your work. Because I think one of the really cool things — and for listeners who may not know, one of the things that Weston does is that all of Weston's music is royalty free. And it's available for the community to use in their tabletop games and their YouTube videos and their actual plays, like all of those different things.I've always really admired that you do that, because it really feels like this act of giving, and this act of, you know, creation for sort of the good of the community. And giving people access to stuff that can sometimes be, you know, very like cost prohibitive. Is some of that emotional involvement, does that have to do with like your willingness to sort of like give to the community like and back in that way, if that question makes any sense? It made perfect sense in my head, did it make sense out loud?Weston: Yes, it really makes a lot of sense. Cate: And I was like, I don't know what I'm talking about.Weston: I have never been asked that question in that way before in this context, and it's my way — oh, gosh. OK. Feel the emotions. It's my way of being there for people who.... Growing up, I felt very lonely.Cate: Yeah.Weston: And for me, it's very important that I help other people to know that they are not alone. That they have support. That there is somebody there who is looking out for them in kind of a mentor-type sense. I didn't have that growing up. All my music stuff. It always felt very lonely, stumbling through and failing over and over, and not understanding why I can't do the same things as everybody else.And this is definitely a response to wanting to be there for people. And I can't be there for hundreds of thousands of people. That's not something that I personally can do. But I devised this method of saying, yeah, but maybe my music can. Maybe I can use this to make other people's games better or other people's experiences better, other people's entertainment more interesting. Maybe I can be the person there who can provide something of value.They can be creative and just take this and use it and immediately see an improvement in whatever it is that they're using it for. And that definitely comes from a place of me feeling I don't want other people to feel alone. I don't want other people to feel abandoned. I don't want other people to feel to their own devices that no one is looking out for them and that they will fail and fail and fail over and over and over again needlessly.Cate: I love that so much. Also, you said this like beautiful, eloquent speech. And all that I was thinking the whole time is like, yeah, me too. But I just talk about sex instead of, like you said, with music. And I talk about talking about relationships on the internet. But like, I feel the exact same way.Weston: I love that. I'm so enamored and grateful for the things that I have learned from the videos that you have done. And being able to reframe my brain around intimacy, around relationships in the context of neurodivergency. And if we dive into relationships here, that's such an important aspect to why I was able to get diagnosed, is that I sat down on the couch with my wife Terena, and I told her all these things that were impossibly difficult for me.And I broke down and I said, "I am at my wits' end doing the bare minimum right now." And I was sobbing. When that realization hit me — because I didn't realize the amount of energy until I verbalized it, that I was pouring into being a dad and being a husband and doing the things you need to do in a relationship. And she really saw me in that moment. And all credit to her was able to say, "Yeah, I see that now. Let's get you help."Cate: Well, and I think that goes back to that sort of shame component, and that kind of loneliness component of like — for me it was that kind of like, you want to do a good job, You want to be the exemplary husband, partner, wife, employee, whatever. And so there's that, like the cup is draining, like you said earlier, straining and draining and draining. And you're trying to keep up. But at some point, like, it just becomes untenable.Like you can't keep going in the way that you've been going, especially, I think, without a diagnosis and without that sort of context of understanding your own brain. And it's, of course, there's such high rates of burnout. Of course there's such high rates of struggles with intimacy and relationships and that kind of stuff in the neurodivergent community — because of that, you know, wanting to keep up appearances of everything is fine.Weston: For me, that was the complete removal of the mask that we use to hide how much effort is behind the scenes. And Terena saw the cost and saw the inner workings and saw that everything was actually on fire, and everything is not fine. And I think that's where the compassion comes in. Having compassion for you and for yourself, and recognizing that the amount of energy that you pour into your every day is X times the amount of energy that some people — they don't have to do.Cate: You've spoken so eloquently about just the experience of being a neurodivergent partner. What advice do you have for a partner who is maybe coming to terms with their diagnosis, or in the process of getting one, and is struggling to really like open up and drop that mask, like you said, and discuss things with your partner?Weston: Being able to sit down and open up is a key part, I think, of any relationship. And if you and your partner are struggling with that, then that is where I feel like you need to start. Diving into the entirety of mental illness and all of that stuff might be a bit overwhelming if you haven't developed a relationship of open communication and vulnerability.And I think that we need to give space for people who may have had different upbringings, may have had different relationships with behavior and struggle and culture, and all these different things that play into mental health. And not everybody is going to be as receptive to those conversations. And it's not that they won't eventually be.Cate: You talked earlier about, you know, struggling in school and then sort of finding your way to music and that kind of thing. What advice do you have for the ADHD kids out there who might be interested in a career in music or composition, who might be, you know, struggling in school? Like, what would you say, a little, you know, I don't know, 10-year-old Weston.Weston: I would say to start. That is the most powerful tool that I think anybody can have. And especially nowadays, being able to make music anywhere with anything. If you have a phone, you can make music. A friend of mine who for the past three years, very talented musician, has just been making music on his phone, on his literal — the thing is like a 5-year-old iPhone — he has been making music on.Do not see the lack in your resources. See that there is an abundance of opportunity. And that music is all around you, even if it's just you writing out lyrics, even if it's just you expressing a melody. I always tell people that as you start to do things and as you start to tell other people that you're doing things, opportunities happen.And I think that that is why social media has worked so well for all sorts of people, of all sorts of different passions, is that you are consistently telling people about what you love to do and about the things that are important to you. And that opens up this world of opportunity. So for anybody who is just starting out in music, just make music. Do not expect it to sound like a top producing, you know, engineer. Like, that is not what's important right now.Try and write 100 bad songs. When you write a hundred bad songs, you are increasing your capability to write good things. And as a kid, because of that rejection dysphoria, I constantly wanted to write only good things. And so it would stop me from writing. It would stop me from showing people things I was working on. Try really, really hard to overcome that.Write and leave it, write and leave it, write and leave it. Because it will never be the thing that you think is going to take off that takes off. Write and write and write. And talk about it and talk about it and talk about it. Learn to speak about the things that you love to do.Cate: Incredible advice from Weston Gardner, aka Arcane Anthems. Weston, thank you so much for being here with me today. This has been incredible. It has been such an honor to get to speak with you. Can you please tell the kind people where to find you?Weston: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So online. I am Arcane Anthems everywhere. You can find me on Instagram or what's left of Twitter or Threads or YouTube. I try and have a very wide brush. If you want to support my music and get it firsthand and get kind of some behind-the-scenes stuff and all the things you can find me on Patreon. Arcane Anthems.Cate: And where can they listen to your music?Weston: Oh, that's, that's all over the place. That's all over streaming. Are you on Spotify? Are you on Apple Music? Are you a Amazon person? Are you on YouTube? Are you on TikTok? You can you can follow me over there. So I try to make music as accessible as possible. If you want to download all my free music, which is over like 80 songs at this point, you can go to my Patreon and you can download those tunes for whatever it is that you're creating. Also, my DMs are up and if you want to shoot me a, shoot me a message. And I love chatting with people. I do that all day long.Cate: And thank you so much for being here. And thanks for being so honest and lovely and wonderful and amazing.Weston: I appreciate that.Cate: And I have been your guest host, Cate Osborn, aka Catieosaurus. You can find me on YouTube. You can find me on Twitter. You can find me on TikTok, Bluesky, Threads, pretty much wherever there's a Catieosaurus to be found, that's me. I'm also the co-host of "Catie and Erik's Infinite Quest: An ADHD Adventure." We talk about living life as neurodivergent adults, and occasionally we play TTRPGs. So if you want to check me out there, you absolutely can. And if you want to get in touch with me, you can head on over to Catieosaurus.com.Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@Understood.org. I'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Understood as a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.Jessamine: Hi, everyone.Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

Conversation tips for kids who struggle with social skills

For many kids, having a conversation isn’t challenging or something they even think about. They know how to make appropriate comments and join in when other people are talking. But for kids who struggle with social skills, the normal flow of conversation can be hard.Important skills, like reading body language and knowing what to say (and when to say it), don’t come easily. Here are tips for helping kids learn to navigate different parts of a conversation. Joining a conversationGroup conversations are tricky because there’s more than one person to connect with. Trouble reading body language might keep kids from knowing if a conversation is private or open to others. They may not sense whether it’s a good time to join or pick up on a tone of voice that means it isn’t. Plus, kids may not know that they need to talk about whatever the group was talking about.How to help:Use real-life situations (or videos and TV shows at home) to point out situations where a group is turned away or talking privately. Also, point out when people in a conversation are looking around and seem open to others joining.Model how to wait for a break in the flow of conversation and then ask a question, like “Is it OK if I join you?”Remind kids to listen and say something related to what others are saying. They can use “wh” questions (who, what, when, where, and why) to get up to speed.Starting a conversationThe first step is figuring out if this is the right time to have a conversation. Some kids may not be able to get a “feel” for whether it’s a good time. Kids who are impulsive may burst into a conversation without any greeting.How to help:Teach basic greeting phrases to use with familiar people (“Hi, how are you?”) and with unfamiliar people (“Hi, I’m Joe — I’m Miranda’s sister”).Show what someone’s body language looks like when the person does and doesn’t want to talk. Also show examples of a neutral or uncomfortable face that might mean a lack of interest.Maintaining a conversationMaking conversation requires following a number of social rules — and not just for a minute or two. Kids who are impulsive may interrupt a lot or talk nonstop. Trouble with nonverbal cues may keep them from realizing that the other person is losing interest. Or they might be so stuck on one thought that they can’t let go of it. Other kids may tune out of the conversation.How to help:Teach how to ask follow-up questions to show they’ve heard and are interested in what the other person is saying. Give scripted examples to practice and use.Help kids practice keeping a thought in mind instead of blurting it out. Tell them it’s OK to say, “Remind me that I wanted to say something about that once you’re done.”Brainstorm words or phrases they can use to show they’re paying attention during conversation, like “right.” Role-play how saying something off-topic or at the wrong time can make it sound like they’re not interested in what someone else is talking about.Ending a conversationEnding a conversation can be as challenging as starting one. Kids may not read the situation correctly to know if it’s the right time to wrap it up. They may also not have the words to end it appropriately. Kids who are impulsive or who struggle with communication skills may end a conversation abruptly without saying “goodbye” — just walking away or hanging up the phone.How to help:Demonstrate some of the nonverbal cues kids may see when someone is trying to end a conversation, like checking the time, turning away, or yawning.Teach some of the verbal cues that show someone is trying to end a conversation, such as saying things like “So…” or “Well….”Teach phrases that they can use to know if the conversation is over. One example is: “Are you OK to keep talking, or do you need to leave?”Help kids learn and practice how to close with a sentence like “It was good talking to you,” or “Well, I have to go now,” before walking away.For kids with social skills challenges, learning the art of conversation takes lots of direct instruction and practice. It’s important to be patient, and know that you may have to reinforce these skills over and over.Learn more about the four types of social cues. Read how a mom got her son to stop interrupting. And find out how the “chicken wing” rule can help kids learn to respect personal space during conversations.

ADHD and bullying

People with ADHD are more likely to be bullied than others. Laura and Dr. Andy Kahn discuss why, and they hear a few stories from former guests. Kids adults ADHD likely bullied peers. honor National Bullying Prevention Month October, we’re special episode shed light problem. Psychologist Understood expert Dr. Andy Kahn — ADHD himself — answers Laura’s questions ADHD bullying. behaviors make kids ADHD targets bullying? people ADHD likely bully others? it?You’ll also hear bullying stories number “ADHD Aha!” guests — you’ve heard previous episodes, haven’t.Related resourcesBullying learning differencesThe difference teasing bullyingWhat child bullyGet information stopbullying.gov.Episode transcriptPeach: bullied elementary school. always felt like something different me, felt like always much. like talking wrong time energetic. like lot. Laura: Understood Podcast Network, "ADHD Aha," podcast people share moment finally clicked someone know ADHD. name Laura Key. I'm editorial director Understood. someone who's ADHD "aha" moment, I'll host. Hi everyone. special episode today honor National Bullying Prevention Month, every October. think important topic one doesn't get enough attention comes connection ADHD. wanted dedicate entire episode ADHD bullying. lot guests, like Peach, heard top show, talked bullying podcast. You'll hear clips throughout episode "ADHD Aha!" guests. joining today talk ADHD bullying expert perspective Dr. Andy Kahn. Andy Understood expert learning psychology host Season 1 "Understood Explains" podcast, special education evaluation process. He's licensed psychologist who's practice 20 years. much time, worked school systems evaluations, consultation, supporting families kids learn think differently. Andy also ADHD. Bonus points show. Welcome, Andy. Andy: Thanks much me. Laura: Let's hop right in. Andy, kids ADHD likely bullied? Andy: Yeah. Kids ADHD tend targeted higher number neurotypical kids. certainly there's lot reasons could be. Kids ADHD commonly difficulty understanding interacting socially appropriate way. might always understand social rules enter social situation abruptly. things sort get people's attention way maybe isn't terribly positive social world. certain situations, pushed around, called names awfully easy kids looking sort grab power put somebody else down. always sort joke lots kids ADHD, including child, there's button middle chest. It's imaginary button, people get know us know push button sort wind us get us going. Whether it's talking something we're hyperfocused it's something know makes us really obsess. ways, there's unfortunately lot hooks kids ADHD get drawn bullying interaction. it's really challenging, there's enough things going young people ADHD try navigate world without singled treated, know, really unkind way. Laura: That's really interesting. That's interesting way talk it. first thing thought person ADHD said memories kid feeling like people didn't understand saying — people misrepresented mischaracterized something said. always tried really deliberate everything said, brain racing million miles hour. would almost script things would say head. folks misunderstood something said, would get really — like feathers would get super ruffled would replay conversation them. Like memorized replay them. would poke fun would kind start lose little bit. mean, sound familiar you? Andy: Without doubt. mean, without doubt. think thing is, certain things environments humans, people, triggering emotions sort charge up. someone ADHD, we're trying cope environment, we're trying navigate something may difficult us, become even difficult triggers really easy hit. somebody, know, makes fun you, somebody comes something know upsetting want see blow want see act out. certain kids pretty perceptive that. And, know, it's really difficult see coming. remember phrase — mom saying, "Why let sister push buttons?" always stayed mind someone pushes buttons. kids like me, kids like lot kids I've worked years, button big red, it's center chest it's visible anybody who's really looking paying attention wind up. think that's great target bullying behavior — really easily triggered way people see might even aware of. That's really sort trap folks ADHD. Laura: Let's talk button red bright easy spot. there's interesting information website StopBullying.gov talks kinds kids likely bullied. don't mention ADHD outright. first bullet that's listed kids perceived different peers, overweight underweight wearing glasses different clothing new school, kids perceived weak unable defend themselves. kids likely bullied. think much line lot kids ADHD. I'd love talk traits kids ADHD make susceptible bullying? Andy: know, think lot around tendencies. think kids think becoming part social group joining social world, skills development kids ADHD different. happen different pace kids don't ADHD. think commonly kids get around age of — think middle school perfect target age talk about. Kids really start appreciate cases reject differences people. see something that's like them, tend hold respond great force. think kids ADHD tend behave way that's like norm. talk word "norm." know, don't don't like word "normal" matter course. It's statistical word, right? think bell curve, normal something see falls right middle. talk norm, way kids tend behave certain phase lives, kids ADHD may fall outside that. it's starting noticed, makes really challenging ability things might come naturally neurotypical child — like enter conversation that's already going on? come try introduce try engage sort social interaction? first go-to behavior really silly really loud interrupt. it's malevolent. It's intended problem people. misses social connection. misses rule. think one challenges kids ADHD kids irritate one another. somebody little bit energetic top, irritate peers. let's go side equation. somebody little bit low-key little passive maybe inattentive really over-the-top behavior patterns, they're really struggling get nuances. may come really mousy, really lacking confidence. that's another really good marker for, oh, here's somebody power over. think bullying behaviors. think it's — trap often focus much kids stereotypical hyperactive ADHD, understand lot obvious things break group norms. often ignore kids inattentive type tend sit fringe, engage often make friends easily. behavior doesn't overtly affect people realm, may less likely singled picked teachers oh, need step help kid. peers, hand, especially peers eye power differentials, bullying behavior, see almost weaker animal fringe larger animal group, they're going go pick individual. it's little interesting kids little passive ADHD — I'm thinking inattentive ADHD — going still picked

The Day Kindness Shone Through My Son’s Social Skills Challenges

When my first child was almost 2 years old, we started to notice he was not following “the plan.”What plan am I talking about? The one spelled out in all the parenting and child development books I had bought when I was pregnant.He didn’t make silly babbling or raspberry noises when he was 6 months old. At 2 years, he hadn't yet said “dada” or “mama” or any other word. At 3, he still couldn’t grasp a thick marker or catch a big, red playground ball, even if I threw it gently. And according to his preschool teachers, he wasn’t playing with other kids.To help my son, we started taking him to speech, occupational and physical therapy. It was pretty time-consuming. I found I needed to leave my job to be able to take him everywhere he needed to be, five days a week.Amazingly, toward the end of preschool, his language skills had improved so much that no one could believe he had ever been a “late talker.” He made a lot of progress in the other areas, too. Except for one: social skills.I could see it for myself when I picked him up from preschool. I’d arrive a few minutes early to peek through the window without him seeing me.I’d see the other kids playing in twos and threes, holding hands, singing or building things. My son, on the other hand, would be curled up alone in the “reading nook,” his face buried in a book. (Oh, yeah—that was another area where he didn’t follow the plan. He had taught himself how to read, and by age 4 was reading chapter books.)But I was still worried. If he didn’t want to play with other kids, how would he learn how to share and take turns, or understand what others are thinking and feeling? Would he learn how to make friends? To be kind?Then I realized something. Although other kids needed someone to teach them, step by step, how to read words, my son didn’t. He figured that out for himself. What he needed was someone to teach him how to read people. We decided the easiest way to do this would be to build upon the thing that came most easily to him—language.We began putting everything we saw, felt, or thought, or that we wanted him to understand, into words. And ever so slowly, right before middle school, we noticed he was starting to “get it.”Then, this past weekend, something happened that made me realize just how far he’d come.It was the day of his school’s spring carnival for kids of all ages. My son had volunteered to be the ticket taker at the bouncy house. When it was time to leave, one of the teachers came to me and said, “Your son did something so kind just now.”She said that a younger boy with a physical disability had wanted to get into the bouncy house. Without being asked, the teacher said, my son helped the boy in. Then, my son took both the other boy’s hands and jumped with him. They kept jumping together until they were both too exhausted to jump anymore. “It made me cry,” the teacher told me.And then, I began to cry.Somewhere along the way, my son had learned not only social skills, but how to see when someone else needed something, even if they didn’t ask. He had learned kindness. He just needed a little extra help, time and the freedom to follow his own plan—not the ones in the books.Any opinions, views, information and other content contained in blogs on Understood.org are the sole responsibility of the writer of the blog, and do not necessarily reflect the views, values, opinions or beliefs of, and are not endorsed by, Understood.

Evaluations for special education: Introducing our new podcast

How do schools evaluate kids for special education? Season 1 of our new Understood Explains podcast answers these questions and more. How do schools evaluate kids for special education? What’s the process like? How do families get started? Season 1 of our new podcast, Understood Explains, answers these questions and more.  In this bonus episode, Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra talk with Dr. Andy Kahn, a psychologist who spent nearly 20 years evaluating kids for schools. Andy shares why he’s excited to host Season 1 of Understood Explains, which breaks down the special education evaluation process for families. Tune it to learn more about the podcast, evaluations, and misconceptions families often have about special education.Related resources Listen: Understood Explains podcast Learning about evaluations FAQs about school evaluations Episode transcriptAmanda: Hi. I'm Amanda Morin. Gretchen: And I'm Gretchen Vierstra. Amanda: And we are the hosts of "In It," from the Understood Podcast Network. Gretchen: Officially, we're between seasons right now, but you're hearing from us because we want to share a sneak preview of a new Understood podcast we're very excited about. Amanda: It's called "Understood Explains." It's hosted by Dr. Andy Kahn, and we have Andy sitting right here next to me to tell us all about it. Andy, welcome to "In It." Andy: Thanks. Gretchen: Yay Andy! Amanda: So, Andy, before we get into the podcast, maybe you can just briefly tell us a little bit about yourself. Andy: Sure. So, I'm a licensed psychologist and I've been in practice for over 20 years. I spent the better part of that 20 years working within the school systems. So, doing evaluations, consultation, and supporting families within our communities. So, came to Understood to become a subject matter expert in learning and psychology. Gretchen: So, then can you tell us a little bit about this new podcast you're hosting? Andy: So, there's a lot to say about this podcast. The purpose of the podcast is really two major points. We're breaking down the special education evaluation process primarily for parents to give them information about, you know, what does it look like? How does that referral process work? How do we make those decisions? Should we do an evaluation? Should we not? Helping parents learn about their rights. And the second, really most important part is, helping them communicate with their kids about that process. That's where we fold in Amanda, who joins us and talks about all of those things. What can you say to your kids? How do you make them a part of the process? Amanda: Andy, I also know that you've really wanted to do something like this for a long time. Tell me why. Andy: Yeah. So, you know, having done evaluations for years, I've done thousands of evaluations. And it was no easy decision to walk away from schools to do this kind of work. But in a word, I was really focused on impact. The idea that the process that I did with my families over the years was something that was highly cooperative and collaborative. So much of it was about giving them information so that they could be involved and they could be calm in the process and feel relaxed enough to know, What are we doing this for? How are we going to make this really work for my child? So, for me, so much of this is about taking what I felt that I was really proud of doing for so many years in my evaluations and putting together a podcast that could help parents, you know, learn things about the process to really maximize the impact and to absolutely reduce the anxiety. So, we have psychologists, school psychologists, special ed teachers, administrators, who come in and give us input about the process and then we bounce out with you, Amanda. You know, the parent perspective, plus how to talk to your kids. Gretchen: Yeah. Can you give us a sneak peek into some of the topics of the different episodes? Andy: We've got 10 episodes, and the episodes start with things like understanding, making the decision about do I want to do an evaluation process? And understanding that an evaluation process can start from a parent requesting it or from the school saying, "Hey, we're seeing something. We'd like to request this process." We talk about parents' rights and you know, what is it that you are allowed to do? What is it that you have a right to receive? And what are the schools supposed to do in this process with you so that you can protect your rights? You know, no one's going to assume that a school is looking to do anything but the best for their kids. But sometimes things go wrong and parents, if they have that knowledge, can really keep the process honest and on track. Amanda: So speaking of knowledge, we keep using the word evaluation. Can you tell us what that means? Because I just realized we haven't even covered that yet. Andy: Yeah, yeah. And I think evaluation is one of the words that we use. We use evaluation or assessment. People might say testing and you know, all these words that become really highly charged. And evaluation is really where we're looking at what the child's skills are in certain areas, which could be anywhere from academic skills, social-emotional skills, overall behavioral functioning, and for other professionals, things like speech and language evaluations or occupational therapy or even physical therapy. So, there's a lot of bits and pieces that go into understanding how a child can be successful and the things that could be factors in their daily functioning. Gretchen: Certainly not just one little test a child takes and it's done. It's a process, right? Andy: Absolutely. And it's a process that has a lot of moving parts and lots of people. So, I think that, you know, for a parent who might not be in the room because their kid's doing the assessment, the more they can know, the more comfortable they can feel and the more input they can have. So, it's yeah, that we have to unpack that and that's a great question. Amanda: Can you talk a little bit about what sorts of misconceptions parents and caregivers might bring to this process before they understand it? Andy: Yeah, sure. You know, everyone who enters this process, and from the parent perspective, something I learned that really came home from doing so many assessments, was that parents were once students. So, their experience of having been students — or maybe if they had challenges with learning and thinking differences — things have changed a lot over the years. The experience for people of my age going through school could have been very different from what their kids are going through right now. Amanda: It's such a good point, right? Because I think a lot of parents, especially in a certain age bracket, they think special education means you're in a separate room, you're in a separate place of the building, that you don't get to be with the other kids at the same age, that it's a different kind of instruction. And that's not the case anymore. Andy: And it once was, you know, as a kid going to New York City schools when I was young, you know, it was if a kid got identified for services, you really might not have seen them again, except maybe after school or on the way to school. So, for parents who might or might not have had, you know, a positive experience in their own education, it really becomes a loaded process. And you have to take that into account. You know the primary thing that I think that always echoed with me is how are the parents responding to this process? What does it lead them to feel emotionally? And then in turn, you know, having a child is like having your heart on the outside of your chest. Amanda: Oh, yes. Andy: So, you know, if your child is now being asked to go through a process, maybe you've went through or things that you have, you know, beliefs that are based on when you went to school that can be really, really unsettling. And to give parents the right information so they can know that they're in charge of making decisions is incredibly powerful. Gretchen: What do parents most often struggle with around this process? What tends to be the bumpiest parts along the way?Andy: For parents of much younger children — the one thing I'll say that I noticed my entire career — little kids don't mind leaving a classroom. They don't mind getting the extra support.Amanda: They love it. As a kindergarten teacher, I can tell you that they loved being the one walking out with the person, they loved it.Andy: You know, for so many parents, it's often the idea about "I don't want my kid to be labeled. I don't want my kid to look different. I don't want my kid to be picked on because we find that they have something that they need that's different than other kids." And I think that people perceive the process and the outcomes as being public, that somehow because you're doing it, everybody knows. Amanda: It's that permanent record thing that people think about, right? There's a permanent and I will just be the first one to admit that as a parent, I know that fear. And I was a teacher, I was an educator, I was in special education. And when I first did this with my first child, I went through evaluation, I had this like, "Nope, nope, don't want to do that. Don't want that label, don't." But, you know, people like you Andy make it easier for us to understand like it's not a permanent record situation. Andy: And I think some of us would say that, you know, we're building in the idea of expectation that's realistic and putting people in the position to ask questions that builds comfort. And I think that in and of itself, if you're comfortable enough to say, "I don't understand this" or "This scares me," or "Heck no, I don't want my kid to get that," then it gives us the opportunity to make... the process can be therapeutic, right? It can be, If we're going through this process together and we're learning about your child together, can you come to a conclusion about "Wow, you know, my kid wasn't just refusing work because they're naughty or because they're a pain or because of some momentary frustration we all experience as parents." But it's more about "Well, I didn't know my kid wasn't able to process that information or struggles with reading or can't focus without support." So, I think that a well-done evaluation is a therapeutic process, and I think that we can't underestimate the impact of that. Amanda: I'm going to turn the tables and ask Gretchen a question if you don't mind. Did you participate in these processes as a teacher? Gretchen: Yes. Amanda: What was it like for you on that side? Gretchen: Yeah. Sometimes families were really invested and interested in getting the evaluation done. And so, they were super involved from the beginning and talking to me about it and gathering the information. But then there were other families who were scared. This was the first time that anyone was bringing up that perhaps their child struggled with something. And for some families hearing that, it was hard to take, right? Because lots of families envision their child as, quote unquote, perfect, right? And then you're told, well, wait a minute, we actually want to find ways to better support your child. And for some of these families, it was like, "What? What do you mean? They're not excelling at every single thing without any kind of support? Because that's what I expected." Andy: Right. Absolutely. Gretchen: You know? And so, it could be tough sometimes to just be part of that process with them because it was scary. Amanda: So, Andy, for teachers like Gretchen or me, because I did this as a teacher too, and I'm going to admit that when I first started, I didn't understand what my role as a teacher was. What is their role in this process, and do you have advice or practices to share with them? Andy: You know, I think the first thing that I would share with teachers across the board is, any time you're going to involve yourself in the process, take a moment to imagine it's your child who's being evaluated first. That empathic approach says, okay, this is sensitive. This is something where you're describing something that could feel critical, like you're giving some sort of negative description of someone's child and really sharing from the very, very beginning that we are focused on making your child's success our goal. And I think really saying "We are working together. This is not a tug of war. We're not on opposite sides of the rope. You and I are both pulling the rope in the same direction. But if you're not sure or you're uncomfortable with part of this, let's talk that through." And teachers can often say, you know, kids who have had this kind of testing, who have found that they have differences, they really can benefit. There's a lot of stuff we can do in reassuring them about what it's going to lead to. Yeah. So, there's, you know, there's a little bit of benefit in just understanding, "You know what? Your kid is going to manage this fine if we support them the right way. It's much harder to break your kids than you think," you know. Gretchen: Right. Yeah. Andy: Yeah. And I think that one of the keys in terms of being successful as a teacher, as a psychologist, as a parent, is always being focused first on what you like about the child. And I'll be completely forthright, I've worked with some extremely challenging kids, and I can say that with very high certainty, I really, really learned to love all of these kids because they all have something about them that's cool and interesting. And for us to be successful, focusing on those things is important. And let me tell you about what we can do that might be helpful to your child or something. And let me tell you about something we may need to do to help your child. So for teachers, we've got a lot to offer them. And just to reset, right? It's just a little reset for your brain, because this is benevolent people looking to help kids. Gretchen: For the teachers listening, I do want to say that it's okay to not know, right? And I remember starting off and being handed a form like, "Okay, we're going to be evaluating this kid. I need to fill out this test, check out these things." And like what? What is this? If you haven't been trained and you're not familiar with what you're supposed to do, then talk to someone and find out because you don't want to go at it alone and you want to do a great job for the family. So, finding an ally who can help you is great. Andy: And think about it, just let's zoom out here for a second. You know, think about what that looks like for kids with learning and thinking differences. They don't know something, so they get anxious and they don't want to step out and make a mistake. But what we're saying across the board here is "If you don't know, that's okay." Amanda: That was part of the fun of being able to come on and have those conversations with Andy, is we unpacked some of that. We looked at how as a parent, do you look at what you need to learn, and then how do you pass that on to your child? Andy: And the best part about that is when you have multiple perspectives talking about something like that. Amanda, you come up with things that I wasn't thinking of in that moment. So, when we bring in the experts at the beginning of each session, then we have Amanda and I chatting, I think for me, the greatest surprise about it was I kept learning things about perspectives that I wasn't taking. You know, as much as I've done this my whole career, I kept stumbling across bits and pieces like, "Okay, that's cool. I never thought about it that way," You know? And I think that's really what's powerful about this, is getting people who know a lot of stuff to talk together because none of us by ourselves knew enough to tell you everything. Gretchen: So last but not least, Andy, how can people get your podcast? Andy: Our podcast it's on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Amanda: Part of the Understood Podcast Network. Gretchen: Yay, it's everywhere, people!Gretchen: Andy, thank you so much for joining us on "In It" to talk about your podcast "Understood Explains." We're so excited for people to listen to it. Andy: Thanks so much for having me. Amanda: Thanks for listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network. And remember, there's lots more where this came from. You can find all our past episodes by subscribing to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts or on our website, go to Understood.org/podcast/in-it. Gretchen: We'll be back very soon with Season 4 of the show. A reminder, it's not too late to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover. Is there something you've been struggling with or wanting to celebrate that you think would be of interest to other folks who are in it? Send us an email at init, that's one word, i-n-i-t @understood.org with your suggestions. Amanda: In It is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Gretchen: Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.

7 study group tips for kids with social skills challenges

From interrupting others to feeling left out, kids with social skills challenges often struggle when working in groups. These tips can help you and your child troubleshoot common challenges. 1. Count to five before responding to others.Basic listening skills go a long way in groups. Teach kids to count to five before they chime in or when someone else is talking. This helps them avoid interrupting or talking over others. Some kids worry about forgetting their ideas if they wait to speak. In those cases, encourage kids to write down their thoughts ahead of time so they can refer to them later. 2. Respect others’ opinions in the group.Some kids with social skills challenges are rigid thinkers. They believe they’re “right” and others are “wrong,” with little gray area in between. They may also have a hard time grasping other people’s points of view.It’s important for kids to understand that it’s fine to have and to share their own opinions when they’re working in a group. But they shouldn't disrespect other kids because of their ideas. And when a group decision is made, they need to go along with it even if they don’t agree. Majority rule is generally how study groups operate.3. Find ways to let off steam during group work.When kids don’t feel prepared to participate, they may clown around to cover it up. They may feel like they don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute. Or they may just feel uncomfortable participating in a group setting, and get restless as a result. If your child gets antsy during group work, brainstorm strategies together for subtly letting off steam. For some kids, it’s very helpful to stand and pace, hold a fidget, or even excuse themselves for a bathroom break.4. Focus on strengths.The best way to gain status and confidence in a group is to add valuable ideas and effort to the work. Focusing on their strengths helps kids figure out how they can be good contributors.Kids who are great at finding information online could offer to do research. A master doodler might offer to draw posters or illustrations. You can even role-play how your child might approach the group.5. Encourage your child to participate at each meeting.Some teachers make sure kids participate during every class. If your child tends to withdraw or “space out” when working in groups, try to encourage participation every time the group meets.Brainstorm questions or ideas that your child will talk about with the group. Your child can write each one down on a notecard and check them off during the meeting. The cards will be a physical reminder to participate. And that will send a message of engagement and interest to the rest of the group.6. Help your child stay on top of commitments.Groups work well when everyone is committed and does what they’re supposed to do. The other kids may get annoyed if your child is always late, forgets to bring materials, or doesn’t contribute to the work.There are ways to help kids who struggle with organization and time management stay on track. Plot out on the calendar what has to be done by when. (For instance, does your child need to pick up poster board over the weekend?) Make sure to gather everything ahead of time so there’s no last-minute rush.7. Ask the teacher about finding the right group for your child.Teachers often let students form their own groups to work on projects. That can be tough on kids with social skills challenges — even when they’re doing their best to be active and respectful members of the group. They may wind up with classmates who just don’t match up with them academically or socially. Or they may be in a group where they feel like an outsider. Talk to your child about who might be fun to work with, and why. (Sometimes kids choose group mates for the wrong reasons.) Then ask your child’s teacher to group your child with kids who are a good match. 

The social lives of our kids: When to worry, when to let go

Many families worry about their kids’ social lives. But when your child has a learning difference, you might worry even more. Hear one mom’s story. Many families worry about their kids’ social lives. But when your child has a learning difference, you might worry even more. What happens when you realize that what looks like loneliness to you is actually not loneliness for your child? In this episode, hosts Rachel Bozek and Gretchen Vierstra talk with Ellen, a mom of three kids ages 11 to 16. Ellen shares the story of her son, a high-schooler who has a nonverbal learning disability (NVLD) and written expression disorder. Hear Ellen talk about why she always worried about her son’s social life. And find out how she stopped worrying and learned to let her son have the kind of social life that works best for him.Related resources My child likes being alone. Does this mean he’s lonely?What to do if your grade-schooler is lonelyWhat to do if your teen or tween is lonelyWhat are nonverbal learning disabilities?What is written expression disorder?Episode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs…Rachel: …the ups and downs…Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer and editor raising two kids with ADHD. Today, we're talking about the challenge of figuring out if a worry you're having about your kids' social life is a "them" thing or a "you" thing. Gretchen: Right. Because sometimes parental anxieties — maybe based on our own past experiences —make it hard to see clearly what's going on with our kids, especially when it comes to their social lives. Rachel: Our guest today, Ellen, is mom to three kids ages 16 to 11. Her oldest, who we'll call Jay, has been diagnosed with written expression disorder and nonverbal learning disorder. Jay has never been super social, and the question of whether he has friends or enough friends, well, that's something that's worried Ellen a lot over the years. Gretchen: And here's the thing: when Ellen was a kid, she was bullied and experienced a lot of loneliness. That experience, understandably, left her extra sensitive to the possibility that her own children might be bullied or simply lonely. Rachel: We wanted to talk to Ellen about how we can learn to separate our own negative childhood experiences from the experiences of our kids. We're so grateful to her for sharing her personal story. Gretchen: Ellen, welcome to "In It." Ellen: Thanks for having me.Gretchen: So, to start off, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your son, Jay. Ellen: So, he's a junior in high school and he is a really great, pretty quirky, quiet kid who is very into band in particular, marching band. That's his big thing. But he is he's always loved school and he's really excited about that. He's taking a bunch of AP classes, which is stressful, but I have been told that I need to stay out of it, and he has it under control. So…Gretchen: Got it. I love that he's a marching band fanatic. I was in marching band. I played flute. What does he play? Ellen: He plays the sousaphone. Gretchen: Nice. Rachel: Yes. Also a marching band kid, clarinet. So, maybe… Gretchen: Oh, fun, Rachel!Rachel: …we can start a little side ensemble. So, I understand that Jay has some learning and thinking differences. Can you tell us what his formal diagnosis is and what those differences mean for him day to day? Ellen: Yeah. So, he has a formal diagnosis of non-verbal learning disorder and also disorder of written expression. So, for the disorder of written expression, I would say he has everything that he wants to say in his head, but he can't figure out how to get it out of his head onto paper. It sort of dissolves. The words just dissolve. And for the non-verbal, I think for him, he has a really hard time with spatial visualization, with knowing where things are and this sort of very literal, not understanding some of the nuances of meaning that words and tones can have. And he has a tough time with tones of voice as well. The best example of it was in ninth grade, maybe? I got an email from his teacher, his math teacher, saying that his computer had been broken, so he had to do an in-class worksheet and he had not done that in-class worksheet. And this was sort of shortly after we had gotten the diagnosis. So, I went and talked to him and I said "Jay, why didn't you do the worksheet?" And he was like, "I don't know. I didn't have to." And I was like, "But she said you did." And he said, "No." And I said, "Well, what did she say?" And he said, "Well, she said, 'If you don't have your computer, you can do this worksheet'." And I said, "Oh, did you think that saying you can do this worksheet also meant that you could not if you didn't want to?" And he's like, "Yeah, that's what it means." And I was like "Oh, OK. No. In that circumstance, what she really meant is you will do this worksheet." And so, it's that sort of thing. Gretchen: I think we're going to shift the conversation now to the heart of the matter, the topic today, what it feels like when we're worried about our kids' social interactions when we think they might be lonely or not have enough friends. So, when did you start to worry about Jay socially? Ellen: It probably started in third grade. I just noticed that he was, like he wasn't being invited to as many birthday parties and he wasn't inviting kids over to his house and he wasn't being invited to go over to anybody else's house. And I was seeing other kids his age, really, their social life sort of expanding, and it felt like his was contracting. Rachel: And did you ever talk to him back then about your concerns that he might be socially isolated? Was that something he seemed self-conscious about? Ellen: So, I didn't immediately talk to him, but I did sort of start at school gatherings and things. I started really paying a lot more attention and I would watch, you know, at any kind of gathering where there were other kids around, I would watch the interactions and sort of look for that kind of eye roll after somebody says something or they're like snicker that you don't see. And I never saw anything like that, which it's reassuring, you know, and I never saw any signs that he was being bullied or mocked or, you know, that kids didn't like him. He has people he eats lunch with, and I saw signs that kids did like him, he just wasn't anybody's, like, super close friend. One of the reasons that I didn't talk to him is that in fifth grade I was really pretty badly bullied. And so, I spent a lot of my sort of third to maybe mid-high school, really feeling left out of things and like worrying that I was being left out and worrying that people, you know, not really kind of feeling like I had my place or my people and that was really painful and it was hard for me to sort of tease out which was me putting my experience on him and what was his experience. And so, I sort of talked it over with my therapist and kind of held back a little bit from talking to him. Rachel: What does he seem to want socially these days? Ellen: So, from what I can see and sort of in-between that kind of fifth grade up to now as a junior in high school, I have questioned him and asked if he wanted to have people over and asked if he was concerned about it. And I have gotten more clear and more emphatic responses from him as he's gotten older of "I see everybody I want at school. And it is fine. And I don't want people to come over to our house. I don't know what we would do. And I'm not super interested and I'm tired and I don't want to go over anybody else's." And a little bit — he hasn't quite said it in so many words — but a little bit of like, "You're making me feel like there's something wrong by asking this. Which is... Rachel: Yeah. Ellen: …the last thing I want to make him feel. Gretchen: And I imagine it must have been hard to watch because, as you said, it brought back memories for you, right? And also, I know, like having kids, right? It feels like your heart’s walking outside of your body all the time, right? So, when your kid's not getting invited to something or you just worry about it, it can be really difficult. How did you manage those feelings? Ellen: It was really, it was really hard, and I had just spent a lot of time sort of focusing on, "I am not him. He is not me. He has a different experience. And what I can pay attention to, what I can know is how other kids are treating him at school, which seemed fine and how he is behaving, which seemed fine." Like he never said to me, "Oh, I didn't get invited to this birthday party" or "Oh, I wish I could go here." And he's not a super communicative kid, but I feel like there would have been something maybe. But it's really hard to trust that that's the case. Gretchen: So, I know you have daughters, right? Ellen: Yeah. Gretchen: Is there anything in your experience of raising them that has made you think differently about this? Or do you tend to compare and then you have to stop yourself? I mean, what's it like, because you have three kids? Ellen: Yeah, the girls are completely different. They are much more social and much more invested in seeing friends constantly. And I do, I do compare. And it's hard because they're really not comparable. You know, I think it can give you a little bit of a marker of where things are. But then I think having three children has made me realize just how completely different they all three are from each other.There is one area where the comparison has been hard, as our middle daughter has been struggling for about a year, almost two years, with an eating disorder. And there have been really a tremendous number of awful things with that. But one of the things that has been the hardest is realizing that she can be in so much pain and we cannot see it at all that if she's not reporting it to us, we don't know. And so that, of course, calls all the things that the kids say into question, because, you know, if you can't tell by looking what's going on and you can't trust what they're saying, then how can you know? And so, we have wrestled a little bit with "Is Jay really, really OK with this?" That has always been the question is, "Is he really OK?" And, you know, the honest answer is, I don't know, because you really can't ever know these things. But from everything that I can see and from how he behaves, he is OK. And so, I really cling to that. Rachel: How did you picture his social life, you know, as it compares to what it is right now? And what do you sort of like do with that? Especially if he's like, "It's fine, mom." Ellen: It's a really hard thing, you know, because I sort of envisioned a social life being hanging out with your friends and I sort of expected a more classic teenage. And he really does not have that. Just this last weekend was homecoming and I asked about homecoming, and he looked at me like I was crazy. He's like, "Why would I want to do that?" Which...Rachel: But he was OK with not doing it?Ellen: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, right. He was like, "What? Have you ever met me? It's not my scene." So, again, it wasn't my experience either. And I think you have these ideas of how your children are going to be and what they're going to be like. And they have their own ideas about what they're going to be. And that's really hard in some ways and in other ways, you know, it means they're comfortable. And one of the things that has really helped in dealing with this is seeing how comfortable he is in his own skin, that he is just, he is who he is, and he's been that way since he was little. And he doesn't change it because it's not cool or it's not popular or it is cool, or it is popular. I mean, he's just, that's not a concern of his. And when I talk to other parents whose kids are having sort of more typical experiences, there's a lot of that and a lot of, you know, "Am I doing the right thing? Do they like me? Do they care about me?" And I'm sure that some of that is going on internally, but it's not enough to raise it to the level of a major concern. It's just, he just is who he is and he's happy with it. And so that, that helps, and remembering that there is no real typical, that, you know, we have an idea of how social is, but it's from TV shows and movies. And for me, growing up in the eighties, like it is a really skewed version of how the world should be, so. Gretchen: Oh yeah. Me too. Rachel: Totally. Gretchen: So, based on all this, do you have any advice for other parents or caregivers out there who might be feeling similar things, who might be looking at their kid thinking, "Oh, no, they're not social enough. They got to get out there more. I should force more playdates on them," you know, what's your advice? Ellen: So, one piece of advice is to remember that more social comes with a whole lot more opportunities to get in trouble as they get older. So, it's not always a downside to not being super social. And the other thing is just that, trust your gut. If your gut is telling you that something is off with your child, trust it, but also take your own experiences into account because it can be hard to tell if your gut is telling you that your child is in trouble or that you were in trouble when you were a child, and that that can be hard. And so, you know, paying attention to that.And then being OK, one of the things that I think we're all facing with the pandemic, but also just the way that our son has turned out — which is wonderful and we're thrilled, but it's also not necessarily what we expected — is being OK with grieving what is not because it's a lot easier to celebrate what is when you can acknowledge that like maybe it's a little sad that the one who is going to make up for all the issues that you had, and have the really great teenage experience, is not. And they're going to have their own issues, but hopefully not the ones you had.Gretchen: Yeah. Ellen: They're their own awesome person. Gretchen: Yeah, that's awesome advice. I love it. I mean, I think I need to remember that sometimes. Thank you, Ellen, for sharing your story. I think it's going to be really helpful for other families to hear. Ellen: Thank you for having me. Gretchen: So, our conversation with Ellen today was about when we think our kid is lonely, but actually they're really quite happy with the way things are. But sometimes we talk to our kids, and we might find out that they actually are lonely, that they actually do wish they had more friends. And so, if that's the case you're finding in your own home, Understood does have some great resources and we'll definitely put some in the show notes. But Rachel, what are a couple of tips for families who might be wanting to help their kid not be lonely and find some friends? Rachel: Well, one thing that's really my go-to is talking to the teacher, you know, especially if we're talking about grade school, elementary school, where the child really has one teacher for the most part throughout the day. Having that conversation and getting a sense of what the teacher sees sometimes that's so different from what we see and also really different from the stories that we get after school or over the weekend. And another thing that I have also had a really good experience with and that I think parents maybe don't even always realize they can ask about is social skills groups at the school. A lot of schools offer some level of peer groups or kind of they treat it almost like a playdate. It's just kind of like get together with a few kids. Sometimes it's after school, sometimes it's during a certain period and they'll pull them out for a little while. And what I've seen, which is really nice, is they kind of rotate over the course of the year. So, lots of kids get to participate in this and it almost becomes kind of like this thing you want to do. And like...Gretchen: Yeah. Rachel: "Oh, who's in the social skills group now?" And it's a really nice way for kids to interact with other students who they either may not have ever hung out with before or just didn't think were, you know, quote, their friends. And, you know, all of a sudden, they're put into this small group of five or six kids and they find that they have a lot of things to talk about.So, you know, I've really found that to be a very valuable piece of school that I didn't even realize was there before the last year or so. So, you know, that's what I see in elementary school. But what about with older kids? You know, if you have a high schooler who may be going through some experience of loneliness? Gretchen: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. The school is a great resource. I think it's still OK to tap into the teachers and ask them what they're seeing and if there are groups that are happening at school. Sometimes there's a lunch group that may happen in teachers’ classrooms. The other thing is, you know, with high schoolers, there's lots of extracurricular opportunities and they're not always what you think, like a sport or debate.Well, you know, in talking to Ellen, something that didn't make it into our episode but was an interesting point she brought up was that she did find a club that worked for her son. She encouraged him to join the D and D Club, the Dungeons and Dragons Club, and that's a role-playing game. And he loves board games and so it's a club that's working for his interests and that's a great way for kids to meet friends. And then one last thing I would say is, you can encourage your kid to volunteer. So, outside of the classroom. Volunteering is great for lots of reasons. But one of the things is that you'll actually meet other people and possibly kids your age, maybe a little older, maybe younger, and sometimes you might meet an adult who could be a great mentor. So, volunteering is a great thing to look into as well. Rachel: So, whether your child is lonely or just prefers being a loner, there are so many ways to work with it in a way that works for your child and also works for you. Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network. Rachel: This show is for you. So, we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you. Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission. Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. And special thanks this week to Sara Ivry. Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening. Gretchen: And thanks for always being in it with us.

Video: Apps for Young Kids Who Struggle With Social Skills

Apps can be a fun way to help your child work on social and emotional skills. Watch this video to see an expert’s picks for apps to help young kids who struggle with social skills.

Executive function skills: What are they and how can we help kids build them?

Messy backpacks. Forgotten lunches. Missing assignments. How can we help our kids get organized this school year? Messy backpacks. Forgotten lunches. Missing assignments. How can we help our kids get organized this school year? What strategies can we use to support kids with ADHD and other learning differences? In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra get back-to-school tips from Brendan Mahan, an executive function coach and host of the ADHD Essentials podcast. Brendan explains what executive function skills are — and how we can help kids build them. Learn why we might be asking too much of our kids sometimes, and how to reframe our thinking around these skills. Plus, get Brendan’s tips for helping kids get back into school routines. Related resourcesWhat is executive function? Trouble with executive function at different ages Understanding why kids struggle with organizationEpisode transcriptAmanda: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It." On this podcast, we offer perspective, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning differences. We talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and sometimes even kids. I'm Amanda Morin.Gretchen: And I'm Gretchen Vierstra.Amanda: And this episode is for all those folks out there like me saying oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. How is it the start of a new school year already? How is summer over? And I don't know what I'm going to do because my kid doesn't know how to do school anymore.Gretchen: Yes, this transition can be especially stressful for parents of kids with ADHD and other learning differences. Maybe you had your systems down last year, like how to get your backpack organized or where your child does their homework after school. But will your child remember those things? And are those even the systems you need this year?Amanda: That's why we wanted to talk to Brendan Mahan. He's an ADHD and executive function coach. He's also got his own podcast, "ADHD Essentials."Gretchen: All right. Let's dive right in.Amanda: So Brendan, as an executive function coach, I would imagine that this start of the school year is a really busy time for you. What are you hearing from parents as they're facing down the beginning of a new school year?Brendan: It varies. Sometimes it's really specific. Like my kid struggled last year and I'm worried about how they're going to do it this year. Sometimes it's my kid's going into middle school, what do I do? Or my kid's going into high school, what do I do? Or I want my kid to get in a college and it's right around the corner — help. Like that. It's that sort of thing, right? But a lot of what I talk to parents about is like pump the brakes. Like, your kid is going to be OK. The school year hasn't even started that much yet.Amanda: OK. So I want to dig into all of that. But first, could you just explain what we're even referring to when we talk about executive function skills?Brendan: So executive function is the ability to do something, right? It's like the ability to execute. So planning and decision making, being able to correct errors and troubleshoot, being able to navigate it when things change and shift, when expectations are different and being able to handle that adjustment. It's understanding time and our relationship to it. It's sustained attention and task initiation. There's emotional control and self-awareness and self-understanding. It's kind of a broad category. There's a lot hiding underneath it.But it boils down to being able to do the thing. It's those adulting skills that, for one, we don't really expect kids to have yet anyway because it's developmental. But also we want them to have it before they're supposed to have it. And that causes its own sort of challenges.Gretchen: So I wonder, do kids tend to slide in executive function skills over the summer?Brendan: I don't know that they slide. I think the academic context of executive function slide. Sometimes we're still using some of those executive functions during the summer. Sometimes we're using more of some of them. You might have a kid who struggles to keep himself organized at school, right? But he's been playing with Legos all summer long and his Lego organizational skills are on point. And maybe that transfers to the classroom and maybe it doesn't.Summer is often when kids are much more self-directed. They're much more curious and exploratory. There's more space for that. So that stuff is going to grow when it may have slid during the school year, because they didn't get the opportunities that they might get during the summer.Amanda: I'm going to go back to something you said, though, because it piqued my curiosity. We expect kids to have executive function skills before they're developmentally ready for it. Why do we do that? Or how do we stop doing that? Or what should we be doing instead?Brendan: I'll go for all of it. Like, how big of a jerk do you want me to be?Amanda: Realistic. Let's go with realistic.Brendan: The answer to that, and this is me being a jerk, is kids not having executive functioning skills is inconvenient.Gretchen: Right.Brendan: Right? Like it makes our lives harder that they can't follow 10-step directions.Gretchen: Brendan, can you give a kind of a general overview of what skills I should expect of typical kids in like grade school and up? So I'm not asking for things I shouldn't get.Brendan: So breaking it down into, like, elementary school, middle school, and high school. It's at least academically how we break things down. So we should expect elementary school kids to be able to pay attention. But there's high school kids who have trouble with that, right? So like, that's kind of an illustration on executive functioning challenges. But broadly speaking, we're expecting elementary school kids to pay attention, control their behavior and impulses, follow one- to two-step directions, and be able to change their behavior to follow rules as necessary.Amanda: The kindergarten teacher in me is going to pop in here and say, "pay attention" is a really like nebulous one, right? Because when I was teaching kindergarten, it was like, pay attention for 10 minutes was about as much as they could could do, right? So I just want to caveat and say, yes, pay attention. I also think about how old the kid in front of you is, for how long they can pay attention.Brendan: True. And absolutely like 10 minutes for a kindergarten kid, and sort of add a few minutes per grade level kind of thing. But also, what does "pay attention" mean? Right? I'm really glad you called that out. Because for some teachers, "pay attention" means sitting with their back against the back of the chair and their legs against the bottom of the chair and their hands folded on their desk and looking at the teacher and — and like, I did that in school. And I did not know what was going on. Because my imagination is way cooler than anything my teacher had to say.Amanda: It may be time to narrate for our listeners that Brendan is standing up as he records, and I'm sitting a swivel chair and swiveling back and forth. Yet we are still paying attention.Gretchen: We're paying attention. So then what about middle schoolers that I know Amanda and I have.Brendan: And I do, too. Yeah. For the middle school kids, we want them to start to show that they can think in order to plan an action. We want them to be able to plan ahead to solve problems, even. Right? Like this is a problem that I might encounter when I do my social studies project or whatever. We want them to be able to follow and manage a daily routine. So an elementary school kid not knowing where they're going on a given day? We might not worry about that too much. Middle school kids, we start to go, oh, wait a minute, you should know what's happening. I want to caveat this, though, because some middle school schedules are a nightmare.Gretchen: A day, B day, short day.Brendan: Yeah. We also for middle school kids, we want to see them beginning to develop this skill of being able to modify their behavior across changing environments. Do we expect to see this because it's developmentally appropriate? Or do we expect to see this because that's how middle school works and it's necessary that they can? I don't know.Gretchen: It makes me think I'm asking too much.Amanda: Makes me think I'm asking too much, too.Brendan: Yeah. One of the things that I often talk about with my clients, with my coaching groups, is when a kid is struggling, we want to wonder: Is it the fish or is it the water? Right? Like, is this kid struggling because there's something going on with them? Or is it the kid's struggling because there's something going on with the environment that they're in? Probably it's both. And oftentimes we focus on the fish instead of looking at the water. So I tend to champion like, let's address the environment that the kid's in.Amanda: As a parent staring down the school year, what do I do right now to start bolstering those skills?Brendan: So if school hasn't started yet, I might be talking about things we can do during the summer to kind of get ourselves squared away so that the beginning of school goes more smoothly, right? Start going to bed a little bit earlier now, so that when school starts and you have to go to bed a lot earlier, you can make that transition more effectively. Or give your kids like a few more responsibilities for the time being, so that when school starts, you can take those extra responsibilities away and replace them with the school responsibilities that are coming. Which doesn't mean they should be writing essays at home. It just means that they should be doing a little bit more in terms of chores or something, so that they're used to not being as relaxed and on as much screen time as they were in the summer.And if school is already started, then it's like trust the teacher, right? Like let's communicate with the teacher. Let's find out what it is that they're doing in their classroom. Are they seeing challenges or red flags already for your kid, or maybe orange flags? Is there anything we need to be on top of right now? So don't wait until the problem happens, like solve the problem in advance instead of solving it after things have gone haywire. And pivoting really quick, because one thing I didn't do is I didn't talk about high school.Gretchen: Oh, yeah. High schools.Brendan: So emerging skills in high school: We expect them to start to be able to think and behave flexibly. We also want to see them begin to organize and plan projects and social activities. Now, social activities, yes. But like, why do they have to be able to organize and plan projects? Because that's how high school works, right? And that skill has been building since middle school, maybe even since late elementary school. But now we're starting to expect more independence and it should be an easier process.We also want to see them adapt to inconsistent rules. And it happens in lots of ways, right? Like I just left English class and now I'm in math class and I can't shut up because I was talking a lot in English and it was fine because we were doing group projects and now it's a solo thing in math, right? That's hard. But we start to expect that. Yeah, you have like three-minute hallway time and then you got to be ready to go behaving totally different for a new subject.Gretchen: That three-minute time is like, I've got to say, as a teacher, even I had trouble switching, right? You're going from one class to the next and there's no downtime to readjust. That's tough.Brendan: Yeah, but that's time on learning, right? That's like you've got to be learning, learning, learning. Which is silly, because we know we need time for our minds to wander in order to cement that learning and sort of lock it in. And if we don't give kids any time that's downtime to have their minds wander and be a little spacey, they're not going to be able to anchor in that learning as effectively as they might otherwise.Amanda: Well, I will say that as a parent of kids who have ADHD, I have often been the parent who was like, you don't have to go do your homework right away. And I know that that's sort of antithetical to like all what a lot of people say. You know, come home from school, do your homework, get it done, then do your other stuff. But my kids weren't ready to. They needed that time to sort of breathe or let their brains breathe or whatever they needed to do. We can have the homework station all put together, but it doesn't mean we have to put the kid at the homework station the minute they walk in the door.Gretchen: Right.Brendan: Right. And how much of that is coming from your own anxiety?Gretchen: Just get it done, man. Go to that seat and do it, right?Amanda: OK, so what's the conversation sound like if I am trying to get my kid in the game, get their head in the game, and not put my anxiety on them? What's that conversation sound like?Brendan: A lot of that conversation is happening inside of you and doesn't need to be shared with them, right? Like, because you got to work on your own stuff before you can have this conversation. You have to figure out what is it about, in this case, homework, and doing it as soon as I get home, or is having my kid do it as soon as they get home. What is it about that that makes it so important to me? It might be that transitions with your kid are wicked hard and you don't want to have another transition. You don't want to have to battle them to come and do homework at 5:00. So it's easier to avoid that battle because they're kind of still in school academic mode. So you can at least get them into it better.And that might be because you're doing it wrong in terms of what activities you're having them do before they do homework. Screen time is not a plan before homework, unless you know you can trust your kid to pull out of that screen and go into homework. If there's ever a battle around getting out of screen time, then they need to do something else before they do their homework.Gretchen: Yeah. That brings me to a related question, Brendan, which is sometimes kids have it together executive function wise, especially when they love something, right? But when they don't like something, all of a sudden I see the skills go away. And I wonder, OK, are they struggling or is it that they're just choosing to not have those skills in that moment because they don't want that for that thing?Brendan: When we're talking about kids, it is never useful to decide that they're choosing to not do or do anything. Because all that does is vilify the kid and make us, as parents, feel more justified in being meaner to them. Instead, we always want to assume that our kid is doing the best they can. And we always want to assume that they are trying to do well and want to please us. Those are my fundamental assumptions at all times. And have I screwed up? Yes. There was a period of time when my kid was struggling, like a lot of kids right now. Post-COVID, there's a lot of anxiety stuff going on with kids.My kid is one of them, man. And I was wrapped up in my own anxiety as a result of his anxiety, and I wasn't thinking as clearly. And we started battling. And we had one particular rough battle that my wife got caught in and I sat down on a bed. I can still see it. I can see myself sitting on the bed and going, I'm doing it wrong. Like we should not be battling. This is not the relationship I've had with my kid for the last 13 years. What am I doing wrong?And I literally went through in my head the slides of the parent groups that I run. And I hit this one slide that is like everyone is doing the best they can. Your kids want to please you. They want to succeed. And if those things don't feel true, it's because there's a skill set that's missing or there's a resource that they don't have that they need. And I was like, he's doing his best, and his best is not up to my standards. And that's because something else is going on. I knew what that something else was. It was the anxiety stuff that's going on. And I was just like, oh, the skill set that he's missing is the anxiety management skills that he needs.But it wasn't that he couldn't do the stuff that I want him to do. It was that he couldn't manage his anxiety. And the only reason I started banging heads with him was because I was so anxious that I couldn't bring the skills that I usually have to bear to navigate the challenges that he was facing and help him out. So it makes sense. It happened to both of us at the same time, and that's why we were banging heads. And our relationship changed from that day forward.Amanda: I'm going to push, though, a little bit, because I really I'm super curious about the kids who say to us, like, I'm just not feeling it. Like, is there something below that, you think?Brendan: What's below when you're not feeling it? Like there's times when we're not feeling it either, right? And there's something below that, too. Sometimes it's I haven't slept well for a week, and I'm just done. I don't have the mental capacity to do this. Sometimes it's I haven't moved my body in like a month and a half and that's affecting my get-up-and-go. Sometimes it's I'm chock-full of anxiety because someone in my house has a chronic illness or I'm afraid of COVID or or my parents are getting divorced or whatever, right?There's all kinds of reasons why kids might not feel it. And if they say, I'm just not feeling it, there's two really good responses. One is cool, then you don't have to do it. Like figure out when you can. Give me an idea when you might be able to do this, and we'll do it then. The other answer is, I totally hear you that you're not feeling it and I get it. I can tell that you're not feeling it, but unfortunately you still got to do it. How can I help you get this done?Gretchen: I like that language.You brought up not wanting to battle your child and none of us want to battle our child. But in thinking about going back to school, we might be getting feelings from last year of oh my gosh, the backpack was so disorganized. Oh my gosh, why didn't you bring home your homework assignments? So how can we start off the year better, but get some of those basic skills under control?Brendan: So I have some videos on "How to ADHD," Jessica McCabe's YouTube channel, on my Wall of Awful model. That is exactly what we're talking about right now. The idea behind the Wall of Awful is that — I'll do like a two-second thing. Watch the video. It's like 14 minutes of your life. The gist of the Wall of Awful is that, like, we have certain stuff that we do that we fail at or struggle with. And as a result, we get these negative emotions built up around that task. And we have to navigate those negative emotions before we can do the thing.So if we've battled with our kid about school a lot, as school comes back up, we have a Wall of Awful for navigating school as much as they do. So we get in a fight and argue about stuff. Just put your shoes on, or whatever. And sometimes it's that petty, right? Like we're yelling at our kid to put their shoes on, even though they have 10 minutes before they even have to get on the bus. And it's not about the shoes. It's about all of the battles we've had about school for the last seven years or whatever.So to get ahead of that, talk to your kids before school starts about how you have conflict when school starts. And ask them, like, what do you notice about this conflict? What do you need for me to help avoid this conflict? Or this is what I need from you to help avoid this conflict. What do you need from me to help give me what I need, right?Because that's what parenting boils down to. Parenting boils down to what does my kid need from me in order to be better? So whenever I have a conflict with my kid or my kid is struggling, I'm always asking them, like, what do you need from me? And sometimes what they need from me is for me to intentionally give them nothing so that they can figure it out on their own. Sometimes that's what I'm giving, is like independence.But if that doesn't work, I need to be ready, like a safety net with, like, other stuff, right? Like, oh, you also need me to, like, bust out a timer and remind you that those are useful. Or break this task into smaller, more manageable chunks. Or, as I had to do for one of my kids recently, text the dad of one of their friends that he wanted to hang out with, because he just didn't have it in him to text his friend. And we had that conversation. I was like, cool, then I'll text the dad. Not a big deal.Amanda: Sometimes my kid doesn't know. My kid's like I don't know what I need from you. So as parents, having those examples of what you can then say: Is it this? Is it this? Is it this? What else would you add to that list?Brendan: First I would add if the kid says "I don't know," say to them, "You don't need to know. I don't want the answer to this question right now. I can, like, take a few hours, take a day." Because when we put a kid on the spot, anxiety spikes, executive functions shut down. They don't know. But if we give them some thinking time and some grace, then they can come back later and tell us stuff. Or maybe not. Maybe they come back an hour later and they're like, I still have no idea.Then we start giving them examples — examples that are informed by what we already know about our kid. Do you need me to get some timers? Do you want to sit down with me and I can body-double you while you work on this? I got some knitting to do, or I have to pay the bills. Like we can sit at the kitchen table, you can work on your thing, I can work on my thing. Do you want help breaking this down into small, manageable chunks? I know sometimes you struggle with that a little bit. Would it be useful to maybe call up Sally and have Sally come over or do a Zoom with you and you guys can work on this together? Would that be helpful? Like, and something else that you thought of, because I am running out of ideas? Like, what do you think?Amanda: So we're all about executive functioning today, which always includes time management. And Brendan, I know you said you had somewhere to be. So I just want to thank you so much for sharing all of these insights and advice with us today.Gretchen: Yes, thank you so much, Brendan. So much for us to think about.Brendan: Thank you for having me.Gretchen: Brendan has lots more to share with families who are working on building their executive function skills. Go to ADHDEssentials.com. That's where you can also find his "ADHD Essentials" podcast.Amanda: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Amanda: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Gretchen: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Errico wrote our theme music. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer.Gretchen: Thanks for listening and for always being in it with us.

6 common challenges for new college students with social skills issues

Adjusting to college life can be tricky for students who have trouble with social skills. Everything’s new, and there’s less structure in college. This can leave new students feeling lonely or lost. We asked Marcus Soutra, president of Understood founding partner Eye to Eye, about some of the most common challenges and how to help. Here are his tips.1. Asking for services and accommodationsStudents may be eligible for supports like free tutoring or extended time on tests. But some students may be reluctant to ask.How to help: Students should visit the college’s disability services office as soon as possible. There are no IEPs or 504 plans in college. But the office will have a dedicated contact person who can help students get the services and accommodations they’re entitled to. Plus, they’ll have access to professionals at the office who understand their challenges. 2. Finding someone to sit with at mealsFinding a place to sit in a sea of unfamiliar faces can be awkward. And for young adults who struggle with social skills or who have social anxiety, this can be extra stressful.How to help: Plan ahead. A student who has class right before lunch might plan to go straight to the cafeteria with a classmate. Students on the same floor in the dorm also often go to meals together. And they can always look for someone else sitting alone. A casual “Mind if I join you?” can be welcome relief for another solo diner.3. Making close friendsYoung adults who have trouble with social skills often have a hard time making the first moves that lead to friendship. This can be especially scary in college. Students may not know anyone and may not know where to find people they can relate to.How to help: Joining a club or playing an intramural sport can be a low-pressure way to meet people. Students can show up without the stress of making plans or doing a lot of talking. And regularly seeing the same people who have shared interests can pave the way for deeper connections. But it’s important to be patient — it takes time to develop even one or two close friends.4. Talking to a professorGetting to know a professor can make it easier for students to ask for help. But starting a conversation can be intimidating.How to help: Students can try talking to the professor during office hours rather than after class. This is less likely to make students feel rushed, and they won’t have to compete with other students. If it makes the in-person conversation easier, students can also email the professor ahead of time and share a few details about themselves.5. Creating a broad social networkPart of feeling comfortable is being able to say hello to familiar people. But in college, there’s less routine than there was in high school. There’s also a new, larger group of unknown people.How to help: Students can create routines so they’re in the same place at predictable times throughout the week. For instance, a student could study in the library between classes each day. Or another student might shoot hoops in the gym before dinner. Gradually, they’ll get to know other people who are following similar schedules.6. Having no weekend social plansBig parties aren’t every student’s scene, but it seems everyone else is going. Or sometimes a student might want to join a social event, but hasn’t been invited.How to help: Brainstorm potential weekend activities. Students can look in the school paper or read fliers posted around campus. The dorm’s resident assistant (RA) may have ideas, too. Students who have joined a club or a campus group will often hear about upcoming events. Be cautious about coming home from college too often on weekends. Students are more likely to develop a social life if they stay on campus.

Adulting and executive function skills: How to help your child thrive after high school

Sending kids off to the adult world can feel both scary and exciting. How can families best support their kids who learn and think differently? Sending kids off to the adult world can feel both scary and exciting. How can families best support their kids who learn and think differently? In this episode, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with Dr. Karen Wilson, a clinical neuropsychologist who works with a lot of college students. She shares some of the common challenges kids face in the real world — many related to trouble with executive function. Get her expert advice on how families can help their kids manage the demands of adulting. Then, the hosts hear from a parent who’s “in it” when it comes to helping kids become adults. Tune in to get tips from Danielle Janson, a mom of twins with ADHD who are in their first year of college. Related resources Life after high school: Tips to get your child readyExecutive function challenges and learning: 6 ways to help your child after high schoolEveryday challenges for people who struggle with executive functionEpisode transcriptGretchen: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "In It," a podcast about the ins and outs...Rachel: …the ups and downs...Gretchen: …of supporting kids who learn and think differently. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer, and editor raising two kids with ADHD. A few episodes back, we heard from high school counselor Jennifer Correnti about how to prepare our kids to take the big leap from secondary school to whatever comes next.Gretchen: Today, we're gathering insights on how things look from the other side of that big leap. Mostly, we'll be focusing on the transition to college, but we'll be talking about other paths, too.Rachel: Later, we'll hear from Danielle Janson, a mom in Virginia whose twins, Jake and Sara, are just finishing up their first year of college. Both of them have learning and thinking differences that made this transition a little daunting.Gretchen: But first, we're talking to Dr. Karen Wilson. Karen is a clinical neuropsychologist in Los Angeles.Rachel: She's also a professor at UCLA and supervises assessment of children and adults with learning, thinking, and social emotional difficulties. And in that capacity, she works with a lot of college students.Gretchen: We were so delighted to have her share her expertise with us. Dr. Wilson, thank you so much for being with us on "In It."Dr. Karen Wilson: Thank you so much for having me.Rachel: Welcome. So, what are some of the most common struggles that you hear about from students at the beginning of their college career?Dr. Karen Wilson: Yeah, I think the kinds of challenges that I am hearing from young people, but oftentimes it's coming from their parents, the difficulties are frequently related to problems with executive functioning.I can think of one client of mine who called her parents very upset because she was falling behind in all of her coursework, and she was really fearful of failing her first semester in college. And the parent in turn reached out to me, and as it turns out, when we kind of looked at what was happening, this young woman was having trouble managing the multiple demands of college life. And what that parent realized was that she had actually been functioning as her daughter's frontal lobe all her life.So, if you think about during this transition to college, this young person who has had her mother wake her up in the morning, help her, you know, navigate to school, has kind of checked in with her daughter. Do you have everything in your backpack? Did you turn in that assignment? All of that feedback and that encouragement was now removed when her daughter was in college and the mother didn't even realize that she had been providing all of this support and scaffolding. Now she has to do her own laundry. She has to manage her own finances, manage her social life, get to places on her own.And so, navigating all of those added things was really creating a problem for this young woman. She had kind of developed the skills to address her learning and thinking differences, but didn't have to kind of manage more in real life, if that makes sense.Gretchen: Oh yeah, that does make sense.Rachel: It does make sense.Gretchen: Makes me think, well, I don't have one high schooler, but I think about this, and I think about, am I doing too much of the executive function stuff for them? And I feel like it might be this, just that kids are just so overwhelmed at school with so many things that sometimes I personally feel like, well, I better do that because they've got all these other things on their plate. How in the world are they possibly going to take care of their basic needs? I better do that for them.Dr. Karen Wilson: I see exactly what you're saying, and I think a lot of these families who have young people who've had these learning and thinking differences for some time, they have been there all along to ensure that their child is getting the support that they need to thrive and reach their full potential.But there is a time when you have to kind of back off. I mean, you don't back off completely all at once in ninth grade, but you do so a little bit at a time. And what that does is it gives young people the opportunity to see that there are some things they can handle on their own.Rachel: That's good to know.Gretchen: Yeah.Dr. Karen Wilson: One of the skills that's really important for students to learn early on are those self-advocacy skills. You know, I've worked with another student who, you know, evaluated when he was in second grade, in fourth grade. And then in high school, I remember getting a call to my office and it was from the student —all along the mother had been making the appointments — and it was from the student who said, "Hi, do you remember me? You evaluated me when I was in sixth grade. I'm now going to be going to this university and I need to get updated testing. I need it by this date. And this is the person you need to send it to."And those are the calls that I love to get. This student was ready for the transition and the parents had said, you know, "You're an adult now. You need to call Dr. Wilson and make your appointment." And I think that taking some of those responsibilities and also having the self-advocacy skills to be able to say, "This is my profile, this is what I need in order to show up as my best self" is really powerful.Gretchen: And can I just say that the skill of making a phone call, I feel like that's so underrated, right?Dr. Karen Wilson: I absolutely agree with you because some students don't know what to say or "What do I say when I get on the phone?" That is another, you know, skill that students have to learn. I mean, you have to call the Learning Disabilities Office and say, you know, "I have a test on Monday. I need accommodations. What paperwork do I need to bring to my professor?" Because that office is not going to send the paperwork automatically to your professor. That student has to ask for what it is that they need.Gretchen: Yeah. And they're not going to send a text message.Dr. Karen Wilson: They will not.Gretchen: They've got to make an old-fashioned phone call and know how to do that.Dr. Karen Wilson: Absolutely.Rachel: So, if a student is struggling academically, who should they turn to first? Is this, should it start out as a conversation that they have with their professor before they kind of take it to another space on campus? Or should they go to support services immediately?Dr. Karen Wilson: It depends on the class, and it also depends on why they're struggling. You know, are they starting only because they don't understand the material or are they struggling because they've got too many classes and they're just overwhelmed with the sheer amount of work that they need to do?You know, if it's the content that they're not quite grasping, definitely start with the professor, go to the office hours, and get some clarity on what it is that they you don't understand. But if it's, you know, "This is too much. I've got five classes, I can't keep on top of all of the expectations, it feels overwhelming," then by all means, go to the student services office and talk about maybe reducing your course load.Gretchen: Yeah. And you know, that again, brings up another life skill that I keep thinking about. Talking one on one with a professor, like I remember as a student myself the first time going to office hours thinking, "What is this? " And I was scared. So, I mean, are there ways to prep students to be able to do that?Dr. Karen Wilson: I think you have to know what you want to ask and what it is you're struggling with. And if you write it down, that is often helpful. What is it you don't understand? Bring your notebook. Bring your textbook. If you're having trouble, you know, taking notes, bring your notes and show what you've been doing just so you're prepared for that conversation.Gretchen: Yeah, I guess preparation is key.Dr. Karen Wilson: Yes.Gretchen: And I feel like maybe having your kid practice that a little bit at the high school level, right? Like, get a little practice, going to your teacher and having those lists and talking about some things that you need to cover.Dr. Karen Wilson: Practice is so key. I'm so glad you said that because high school is a great place for students to get that practice in developing those skills. And for them to keep in mind that there's oftentimes, and there will be, a generational gap between the student and the professor.So, what has to work for communication with your peers is not going to work with a professor. They've spent so much time, this generation, communicating using technology, and they haven't had the opportunity to interact in real life with another person, advocate for their needs, you know, express what it is that they know, what they're struggling with. And that is a skill that they will have to practice before they make that transition because your professors are not going to be responding to a DM.Rachel: So, how does medication fit into this picture? You know, of all of what we're talking about, are there special challenges for students in terms of staying on top of their meds now that they're out on their own? Tell us a little bit about that.Dr. Karen Wilson: It can be a challenge. And again, it depends on the young person and how much support they've been receiving at home, right? If you have a parent who's put your medication beside your breakfast every morning, that's going to be a very different and more challenging situation to manage all of that on your own versus the student who's already been managing and been responsible for taking their own medication through high school. And if you have been reminded by a parent, now's the time to set up reminders for yourself, whether that be an app or on your phone, some strategy that will help you remember now.The other thing is when you need a refill, when you run out of medication, when you're getting close to the end of your prescription, you've got two pills left in the bottle. Can that be a cue for you to request your own medication refill? And so, you know, a parent who might be listening can practice that with their child and say, you know, "For the next two months, you're going to manage your own medication." Obviously, they're going to oversee it and make sure things are getting done. But you'll be able to see where there are gaps. And, you know, if you see the empty bottle that's been sitting there for two days and your child hasn't said, you know, "I need a refill," then you know where the support is going to be needed moving forward.Gretchen: What are some things that parents, or maybe the young adults going, should maybe be more concerned about than they actually are at the time?Dr. Karen Wilson: Yes. You know, emerging adulthood, regardless of whether you have learning and thinking differences, is a vulnerable time from a social and emotional point.Gretchen: Oh, yeah.Dr. Karen Wilson: And what I mean by that is that if students are going to develop anxiety or depression, this is a critical time when oftentimes that does begin to manifest for the first time. And so, making sure that a student has the social and emotional support as they're making this transition is really important.And so, even before they go off, you know, that young person can be excited about making the transition, having that conversation, saying, you know, "I know you're really excited, but sometimes, you know, students who are making this transition can feel lonely, can get depressed, can get really anxious. If you start to feel those things, I want you to reach out to me so that we can make sure you get the support that you need."Gretchen: Well, let's talk a little bit about something different. We've been talking a lot about the challenges for kids who go to college. But what about those who take a different path, whether it's they go to work or they take a gap year or the military or something else? What are you hearing from those kids or parents about things they might be struggling with?Dr. Karen Wilson: I think they're struggling with a lot of the same things, but just in different ways. They may not have the college demands of managing classes, but if they've decided to get a job right out of high school, they also need to be at work on time. They have to finish their responsibilities, they have to notify individuals if they're not going to be there.They also are also facing the same vulnerable time where there are higher rates of depression, higher rates of anxiety. And they're, we already know that there's kind of this loneliness epidemic for all young people. And so, if you've got friends who you were really close to when you were in high school and now, they're off attending college, you know, across the country, then that can increase the loneliness that an individual might be experiencing. And loneliness, we know, puts you at greater risk for depression. And so that can also be something to keep an eye on.Gretchen: And I imagine if kids are struggling with executive function things like getting to work on time, right? Or getting a task done on time at work. That's a little different than if you turn in a paper late and you get a bad grade. The repercussions could be like you don't have a job anymore or like, it affects other people in the workplace. And so that, I imagine that might be tough to handle.Dr. Karen Wilson: Absolutely. And then obviously, that has an impact on self-concept, how you feel about yourself. "Can I do this? Can I get another job? Can I get any job if I can't handle this one?" And so, there can be a lot of self-talk that happens as a result of those challenges.But it's also an opportunity to, again, develop and practice those skills in a work environment, right? And may not be your career job right out of high school, but you can figure out what you're strong at, what your weaknesses are, and what kind of job you do not want in your future.Rachel: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. First, jobs are sometimes really good for that. So, we've talked a lot about some of the things that can trip kids up when they're embarking on this new phase of life. What can you tell us about the kids who have really blossomed? Can you think of an example and tell us what they're getting right?Dr. Karen Wilson: I have a lot of examples, and I would say that in general, the students who have those great outcomes and thrive in a college environment or thrive in their first job outside of high school are those that understand their learning and thinking differences, can self-advocate for what it is that they need, and who have the social and emotional support as they make that transition.So, they have a good group of friends that they can check in with. They know that they have the support of an adult in their life, whether that's a parent, a mentor for students who are transitioning to college, you know, many of them who've gone on to graduate and again, thrive in life are those that can in that first year continue to have a tutor or continue to work with an executive functioning coach or an educational therapist as they made that transition to kind of help them navigate that transition period.And then the other thing is really those students have really thrived, as are those students who've really been able to kind of see what it is that they need and to have put in place in their living environment to support them and help them succeed.One of those is making sure that you're getting enough sleep because, you know, college we talked about all of the distractions and consistent sleep is essential and even more important for students with thinking and learning differences so that they can. Thus, their attention system, their executive functioning system. We know that students who don't get enough sleep are at greater risk for emotional struggles and social difficulties. So, those students who have said, you know, "I need this amount of sleep, I know what you're doing, but I have a class at 8 a.m. I need to get some sleep."So, those students who again, can self-advocate with their roommates about what it is that they need to do exceedingly well. And then also those students who are, who get involved in extracurricular activities, you know, not overscheduled, but get involved with clubs and feel a sense of belonging with their university do extremely well. All of those things in place are setting you up for success.Rachel: Yeah, and I think a lot of that can totally apply, you know, in other settings as well. So, if you are taking a gap year or get a job right out of school, but you want to maybe like volunteer at an animal shelter or get involved with a food co-op or there's like all these different ways to find that sense of belonging. So, I think those are great ideas and hopefully recipes for success. Well, is there anything we didn't cover that you want to mention, Karen?Dr. Karen Wilson: You know, one thing I guess I would say, I mean, we've covered so much and I think one of the things I would say is that, you know, students who have a learning and thinking differences are incredibly resilient. And we can give them the opportunity to see that they have all of the innate skills that they need in order to achieve what it is that they want to achieve. Many will continue to need additional parental and societal support, but once they have that and we can pull back a little, they can really soar.Gretchen: Well, thank you for being on the show with us today.Rachel: Thank you so much. It was so great to speak with you.Dr. Karen Wilson: Oh good. I hope it was helpful.Rachel: Very helpful.Gretchen: Very helpful. Dr. Wilson shared so much good advice.Rachel: She did. I have to be honest, though, I know it's still a few years off, but I have such a hard time imagining my kids managing all the things in college, which is why I was so grateful when a good friend of mine, Danielle Janson, agreed to talk to us about what it's been like for her.Gretchen: This year, Danielle sent not one but two kids off to college.Rachel: Yep, they're twins. Their names are Jake and Sarah. And here's how Danielle describes them in a nutshell.Danielle: They are about to complete their freshman year of college. They go to two separate colleges, both very different kids. My daughter has always been a theater kid singing, dancing, all that. And my son is a total sports kid. Both have diagnoses of ADHD along with anxiety, and my daughter also deals with some depression.Gretchen: We asked Danielle if she remembers what she was the most worried about before they left for school.Danielle: Dealing with professors and so many different personalities and new people. That was a fear. Definitely with my daughter's depression and anxiety, sending her away to college. Like does she have a support system up there and how are we going to have all those things in place for her?Rachel: Those were some of her big-picture concerns. And then there were the worries about how Jake and Sara would handle day-to-day life.Danielle: You know, you always fear medications. Are they going to take them? Are they going to take them on time? Are they going to remember to go get the refills? Also waking up in the morning.Gretchen: Some of these challenges were things they could work on before school started. And they did. Both kids took on the responsibility of managing their meds for a few months before they left.Rachel: And they both reached out to their universities to determine what accommodations they would be entitled to once they got there.Gretchen: Once the school year started, there were a few bumps in the road. Both kids had to figure out how to manage anxiety when faced with new experiences like socializing in a big crowd or making presentations in front of a large class. But they knew to ask for help and they got through it.Rachel: As for academics, they both proved capable of advocating for themselves when they needed to. Though for Jake, at first, it took some parental nudging.Danielle: For example, he had a class. He was taking music and it was a tough class and he just really "Jake just goes talk to the professor." So, he did, and the professor sat down with him is like, "Let me see how you're studying, and let me see how you're taking notes." And the professor pointed out like, "Hey, Jake, all this information is on the slide. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Add notes that are what I'm lecturing about that's not on the slide."Gretchen: Sarah also showed herself to be an excellent self-advocate.Danielle: For example, she had a professor this semester who's kind of old school and first day of class, he said, "Hey, no computers, no iPads, no phones, nothing. I want to see none of it." So, Sara just simply met with him after class and said, "Hey, I have accommodations, I need to use an iPad to take notes." And he was like, "Great, thank you so much for telling me you have permission to use it."Rachel: Danielle's got a lot of pro tips after her kids first year of college. Jake learned a little late, unfortunately, that at his school, kids with learning and thinking differences are entitled to early registration so they can get into classes that best meet their accommodations. Apparently, this privilege is common at other schools, too.Gretchen: Also common, a free note-taking service for students who have a hard time listening and taking notes at the same time. The note-takers are fellow students, they never know who they're taking notes for, and they get paid to do the work. So, it's a win-win.Rachel: You know, Gretchen, with all these preparation strategies, sometimes it's hard to remember the big picture, like why we're sending our kids off to fend for themselves in college or wherever they choose to go. I asked Danielle about that, and I think she offers some really good perspective. What are you hoping they get out of this experience?Danielle: Well, I think we're just hoping that they learn how to be comfortable in their own skin and to just go to the beat of their own drum and know that they can do things in their own time and at their own pace. You know, to develop like a sense of self-worth and a professional life and, you know, just see all the things that they have within them to offer to this world, you know? And mine and my husband's hope for them is just as we've always said, like "We just want productive members of society. That's all we ask for."Gretchen: Yeah, that seems like a pretty healthy outlook. Well, Danielle, you've given us such good advice for families getting ready to send their kids off to college. Thank you so much for all of it.Rachel: Thank you so much. This was really great.Danielle: Thank you for having me.Gretchen: Danielle gave us so much great information. One other tip she gave was about ADHD medication, which we know can be a hot commodity on campus where some kids may be using it recreationally.Rachel: Yeah, I thought this was a really good tip. So, what she told us was that she and her husband actually sent both kids to school with a safe to keep their medications locked up and just keep them safe.Gretchen: That is such a great tip. And in fact, that makes me think that our listeners probably have some great tips. So, if you're someone who's recently pushed your kid out of the nest, whether to college or job or whatnot, we'd love to hear from you. If you've got some great tips to share, please feel free to email us at init@understood.org.Gretchen: You've been listening to "In It" from the Understood Podcast Network.Rachel: This show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at init@understood.org to share your thoughts. We love hearing from you.Gretchen: If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode.Rachel: Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at Understood.org/mission.Gretchen: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Briana Berry is our production director. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Eric co-wrote our theme music.Rachel: For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.

How Can I Help My Homeschooled Child Build Social Skills?

ADHD masking: Breaking free and going viral

Aideé Chávez Frescas has ADHD, and is a senior social media manager at Understood. Her posts help end stigma and show others they’re not alone. Aideé Chávez Frescas is a senior social media manager at Understood. She also has ADHD and creates her own social media content that has gone viral again and again. She shares about her life as a Mexican person living in the United States, and the intersection of being Latina and having ADHD. Her videos and posts help end stigma and show others they’re not alone. Understood is the first workplace where Aideé has been open about her ADHD. She felt comfortable disclosing because of Understood’s mission to help people who learn and think differently thrive. In the past, she relied on masking her symptoms, toning her energy and personality down to fit into spaces. Now, Aideé is proud to be herself at work. And she encourages her team to do the same. Hear how Aideé thought masking her ADHD was code-switching at first — plus her formula for going viral. Related resourcesAidee’s personal Instagram account, and her ADHD Instagram account @totallyadhd_Understood’s Instagram accountADHD runs in the family (Michelle’s story)Episode transcriptAideé: I stopped being afraid and pretending. I didn't realize how much pretending I was doing through my day or even with friends. I couldn't do me because I was just so worried that my ADHD was going to interrupt somebody. I was so exhausted too. I was so tired.Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.Aideé Chávez Frescas knows how to go viral. We work together here at Understood, where she creates content as the senior social media manager. She has ADHD, and she manages her own team who she encourages to be themselves at work. Since Understood is an organization that works to shape the world for people with learning and thinking differences, we're very understanding and open here about neurodiversity, which is not the usual working environment, as we've heard on the show again and again. Aideé and I talk more about this and how it's changed how we work.Welcome, Aideé, to the Understood podcast studio. Two Understood employees in the Understood podcast room.Aideé: That sounded so professional. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so excited to be here.Eleni: I'm so excited that you are here and we are chatting. One part of your story I think is really interesting is, you know, social media is a big part of your life, both in your day job and then also outside of work. So I thought that we can start just maybe with a quick description of what you do and Understood. And then also how you apply some of your skills outside of work too.Aideé: I'm a senior social media manager here at Understood, and I didn't become a social media manager by accident. It has always been easy for me. I'm always an early adopter. So I started with social media and I didn't really understand, because social media, like 10 years ago, is not what it is today. So I didn't really understand that it could be a job. I just knew that it made me happy and I wanted to do something with this.And yeah, when you do something every day, it makes you happy, you become really good at it. And it becomes part of your nature almost. I joke about it all the time and I say, look, I can make you viral if you want to be viral. It sounds cocky, but it's not cocky because I just know the formula so well. I can do it for brands and for people.Eleni: What were the skills that you learned in your personal life that you then applied to your work?Aideé: I remember the first time that I had a brand reaching out to me for me to do their socials, and I didn't know I could charge. So I was like, OK, yeah, I'd do it, of course. And then they're like, "How much do you charge?" And I'm like "What? You pay?"Eleni: I just do this for fun.Aideé: Yeah, I was, I was so in shock. And then from that I started, like, getting more clients and I had, like, clients. I had great success with the brands. And so I was able to start charging a little bit more money. It was an easy transition. It was never something that I questioned. It was one day I just woke up and I was like, OK, I'm quitting my job. This is what I'm doing now.Eleni: That's super cool. I actually didn't know that. There's a couple of things I want to follow up on. First of all, you said like social media has changed a lot in the last 10 years, and it seems to be like a pretty fast-paced industry to work in. I'm curious how you feel it might be related to like how your brain works and why that might be suited to you. And, you know, yeah, this felt so natural and easy for you.Aideé: No, it is definitely related. I can write a strategy for socials today and I wake up tomorrow and the whole strategy goes to trash because social media changed completely and I cannot do anything about it — it's just how it is. And I love that. I love that about it because I'm always learning and I'm always doing something else. It's never boring for me. Every day, there's something new, and that gets me going.So if I wasn't doing this, right, I know my ADHD — it would just paralyze itself, basically. I would be in this place where I would not be able to take action, because that's how my ADHD works. That's how she goes — or he or it, whatever. It goes to that place of not taking action and overthinking everything.So because my job is already moving so fast, I have to take action so fast, I cannot think about it. I cannot sit down and take a whole week to make a decision. So it's constantly knowing and trusting your gut and then going after that.Eleni: Yeah, it's like a positive cycle. You haven't actually said what you're known for on Instagram or on TikTok.Aideé: Yeah. So for my Instagram, I transitioned to just like lifestyle. And then I now do me. It's like something that I would post for my parents to see now for Instagram. And then for TikTok, I started the account just sharing about my experience as a Mexican person in America, in New York. And so I that's how I started. And then I transitioned to talking about ADHD.It's also like interesting because I didn't transition also to speak about ADHD by accident. It was also what the audience wanted to hear from me. I'm very good about doing something and realizing what somebody wants out of it, and then that's what I give. I don't have to do the other stuff. I can open up another channel and do that on the other channel.But yeah, I immediately knew the first time I shared something about ADHD, it was like viral. The next one viral, the next one viral, the next one — like it was like one thing after another one. And I was like, OK, this is it. This is what people want to hear from me.Eleni: So then what is it like working in a field that's so personal to you?Aideé: Yeah, I don't know the difference between personal and work. So, like, the values, like we speak about this all the time here in the organization. Like, what values do you have in the organization? And, like, my values are the same values. Like, my personal values are the same values that I have in the organization. I can't — I don't know the difference between the two.And so, like, when I come here, I bring my full self and I really can't separate the two. When I try to do that, it's just — I'm not happy, you know? And so I have to make sure that I stay strong on the things that I do in my personal life. If I'm like a kind human outside, I have to be extra kind. All of it has to match.Eleni: But then I imagine that Understood is a pretty unique place to work in terms of openness about ADHD. So how does this version now, the authentic version of yourself that you bring to work, how does that differ from the past and working in other organizations?Aideé: Yeah, this is the first time I have ever told my job that I have ADHD. And actually, before that video that I posted on TikTok, I had never told even my friends. Yeah, I was so worried about that video. I was so nervous before posting. I didn't want anybody to know. I also was worried that my family was going to see it and like offend somebody for whatever reason. I don't know. My ADHD has always been like me, myself, and I, and like together we don't — I didn't use to share anything.I know that because I shared that I have ADHD with the org, yeah, I can be myself finally. Like I can have the giggles for no real reason, because my ADHD is — have like a splash of energy and time. And I'm just happy. All that stuff, everybody understands.Here, I stopped being afraid and pretending. I didn't realize how much pretending I was doing through my day or even with friends and family. I would just sit in, like dinner table, and speak so slowly and try to be so professional all the time like this. Like I couldn't do me because I was just so worried that my ADHD was going to interrupt somebody. I was so exhausted too. I was so tired. I was so tired of pretending.Eleni: Yeah, because masking can be really exhausting.Aideé: Yeah. It was so tiring. And also a lot of my friends that I was worried about, they reached out to me as like, oh, by the way, my son has ADHD. Everybody was super, super extra supportive. It took my parents time to understand it — not because they didn't understand what ADHD is. It's just they didn't understand that I had it because they didn't see any signs. For them, this is me and that's who I was. So they don't see anything as a sign for ADHD.Eleni: Mmm. That's interesting.Aideé: Yeah. So that — it took them a long time. So I had to go through the signs with them. Yeah.Eleni: That's interesting though, because in a weird way that shows that they did have a level of full acceptance of who you are. They just didn't know why.Aideé: Yeah. And that was so beneficial. So beneficial for me when I was growing up because I was so stupidly confident. I was so weird and I was so fine with it. And that was the way my childhood — so happy. I remember like the way I dressed when I was little, the way that I did things. It was so weird, so strange. And I see pictures of me and I was like, I thought I was the coolest. I was like, so — my personality was so out and I was not so worried.I think when I went to college is when I started feeling that I needed to change and become more like mature, I guess, and serious. And I know — a lot of people would make comments how I interrupted them when I talk, you know. Then I started working in corporate America and I got a lot of feedback about how loud I was, how much I was laughing. And so like, I internalized all of that.Eleni: I had a thought when you were talking about, you know, your fear about what would happen if you came out and went viral. But then actually what happened was that people reached out. And I think it's interesting because we hear that a lot in research in terms of visibility, like how important it is. Because like once you see others that are like you, it does normalize it to an extent and you feel less alone in that experience. So it's cool that you could do that for others.Aideé: Yeah. And I think that also — I am not going to speak for the whole like Hispanic community or Mexican community, but I know what I know. And around my circle, I know it can be a taboo. Mental health. It's something that we are not accustomed to speak about it because it is shameful in a way. I mean, I don't know. I felt shame. I did. I didn't want to be different.Eleni: Yeah.Aideé: Yeah. I just didn't want my brain to not work the same way that everybody else's brain, because I didn't want people to think that I was stupid. My parents were like, why will you post this on social media? Like, they don't even have social media. Don't do this, because everybody's going to see it. Like it's OK that you have it, but like, let's keep it a secret.Eleni: Yeah. Definitely.Aideé: Yeah, I can see that it's something that it does affect them.Eleni: So one thing I wanted to ask you about: At Understood you manage a team, and we already talked about you being out about your differences. But I know in addition to you being open about your differences, a lot of your team is also open about theirs. I think that's kind of an interesting case study to think about in comparison to other organizations, because obviously it's unique in that way, right?Aideé: Yeah, my team is a team of four full-time employees. It's going to be five soon. And we have one contractor right now. And from the four, three have ADHD. Right? And we are open about it. So the dynamic is really interesting. We are so understanding of what we need. It also can feel — like if you're in a meeting with us and our team meeting on, we have it on Tuesdays and Tuesday mornings, you're going to be like, what is happening?I mean, we do follow some guidelines that we go through. I mean, every time we meet, we go through the same things. But before you know it, we start talking about like why apples are the color that they are. And then like, why like random, random stuff comes every single time. At the same time, we get the work done. And not only that, it's extremely successful because they are extremely creative and it doesn't stop. It's like the energy that this team has is like times 20. You know, like an idea happens today and it's done by next week. We are already implementing it so fast. They're so, so smart.And also it's hard for me — the part that is hard — because I have to also maintain the creativity. Channel that creativity. The best thing, too, about people that have ADHD because we always, constantly have many, many, many, many creative ideas. So if I say no, we can't do that because whatever reason, they're like, OK. There's never hard feelings. Because I know a lot of neurotypical people get really passionate about one idea and they think — .Eleni: They get attached to it.Aideé: Attached to it and they think that's it. But because we are like used to losing them all the time, because, you know, your brain goes so fast. So one day you have one idea and then like the next day, oh, what was I thinking? That was a great idea. Oh, I forgot. That's OK. You know, like, you move on really quickly. It's like, not a big deal. We're used to it.Eleni: Do you feel like you have learned more about yourself and your ADHD through working with others that are also open about it?Aideé: 100. Every time. It's a constant seeing yourself reflected in others and seeing your actions reflected in others. It's so good because your awareness grows.Eleni: Do you want to talk a little bit about what works for you at work and how you've kind of come up with coping strategies or tools or whatever it may be?Aideé: I learned how to cope with my ADHD without realizing I was coping with my ADHD. And so for the longest time, because I'm Mexican, I thought I was in good shape. I just was like, oh, at home I can be really loud. At work, I can't be really loud. I didn't really realize it was ADHD.But for me to be successful is always notes, I guess. I take lots of lots of notes. I'm so organized to the point that is crazy. Like you look at my Google drive and it's like chef's kiss, you know. It's so pretty, so organized. But like, but I have to. Otherwise, I would nod. I would not know how to find things. Like I have to be that extreme. And I'm constantly looking for ways of improving the process that we have at work. I'm always looking for ways of the team spending less time at work. Not that I don't want them to work, it's like just —Eleni: Efficiency.Aideé: Efficiency. Yeah, I had this conversation with the team member and he said yeah, I spend three days creating this spreadsheet every month. And I'm like, what? Three days? You're so creative. This is a spreadsheet. No, we're not doing this anymore. Like, I need you to be like bringing ideas and like, sharing those ideas. This is not where your time should be spent. And so we switched right away, and now it takes 45 minutes. Like little things like that. I'm like, always looking for that — that kind of ways of improving — .Eleni: It's part of problem-solving. We definitely had an episode where someone talked about spending a lot of time in their day job actually trying to figure out ways to not do the mundane things that didn't work for their brain. Like it was partly like, oh my God, this is so boring. I physically can't sit here and do this. Like, how do I make this more efficient in order for me and the person after me to not have to do this boring thing, you know?Aideé: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. You start making mistakes because it's boring. Your brain is tired, your brain doesn't care, especially when it's the same thing over and over and over again. So, yeah, I love that. I love that about my brain.Eleni: Yeah. That's so cool. Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. It was very fun.Aideé: Thank you so much. This is great.Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. The show is for you, so we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. We'd love to hear from you.If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Also, one of our goals at Understood is to help change the workplace so everyone can thrive. Check out what we're up to at u.org/workplace. That's the letter U dot org slash workplace.Understood.org is a resource dedicated to help people who lead and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission."How'd You Get THAT job?!" is produced by Margie DeSantis and edited by Mary Mathis. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thank you for listening.

Multiplayer online video games and kids who struggle with social skills

Multiplayer online video games, like Minecraft and Fortnite, are some of the most popular games. These games are fun for many kids and can come with some surprising social benefits. Multiplayer games can be a lifeline for kids who have trouble connecting to their peers. The unique culture and shared language of gaming can help kids connect in person with other kids who play games. A gaming interest may also lead to online friends. But multiplayer online games can be challenging for kids who have trouble with social skills. Because of the interactive nature of the games, gamers can bully, criticize, and leave kids out — just like in the real world. Kids may have the same difficulties when playing these video games as they do in real-life social situations. And their families often don’t know it’s happening. By understanding the social challenges your child may face, you can help your child navigate this online world. Trouble spots for kids with social skills challengesHere are five of the main trouble spots and how to help your child.1. Trash-talkingOpponents and even teammates often talk negatively to each other. Sometimes teasing is harmless and good-spirited. Other times it gets downright nasty, even between friends. What you can do: If your child has trouble managing feelings, it’s important to set a strict rule to not play with kids who trash-talk. Even casual negative remarks can have a big impact on your child. 2. TrollingSome players will harass or provoke other players for fun. Trolling is often anonymous and random, and it happens without warning. It can be deeply upsetting to kids. What you can do: If your child is being trolled, it’s important to stop playing right away. Trolls thrive on attention. If your child tries to fight back in the game, it may invite further trolling. Most games have a system for your child to report another player who is trolling. Encourage your child to make a report. 3. Online anonymityBeing anonymous can lead kids to say and do things they might not in real life. They may be mean because no one knows who they are. That’s especially true if they’re impulsive. What you can do: Talk about what’s appropriate and inappropriate online. Remind your child that anonymity doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences for inappropriate behaviors. Games can ban or suspend players for treating others poorly or breaking the safety rules. Review personal safety with your child and talk about the specifics of online safety. For example, make sure your child knows not to share personal information, like a home address, phone number, or the name of their school. 4. Complex social rulesEvery video game has its own set of social rules. Some games have written codes of conduct that explain how players should interact with each other. But just as in real life, social rules in games are often unwritten. Kids may struggle to understand them. They may offend other players. What you can do: Learn about the nature of the game — whether it’s cooperative or competitive, for example. Then see if there’s a code of conduct for the game. You can look for this on the game’s website or in the support section of the game menu. If there’s no written code of conduct, try playing the game a few times yourself so you can learn some of its social rules. Then, help your child think through the social rules or code of conduct. Try to have your child stick to one game for a while, to learn what’s appropriate. 5. Hyper competitionMost video game developers encourage a competitive scene as a business strategy to keep a game popular. This can be tough for kids with impulsivity and self-regulation challenges. If they’re struggling in the game, they may become moody. What you can do: If your child isn’t as good a player as other kids, emphasize that a game is just a game. Help your child recognize other strengths. You can also help your child find a new game that is fun, engaging, and a better fit for their strengths. Video games aren’t going away. In fact, most experts agree that the gaming industry will continue to grow — and target younger and younger kids. If your child plays video games, especially multiplayer online games, make sure you’re involved so you can address any trouble spots.More to knowLearn more about Minecraft and Fortnite for kids who learn and think differently.Find out how to tell if your child is being bullied online. Listen to a podcast episode about the benefits of gaming for kids.

Diverse impact: Champions of change at Understood

Learn how four members of the Understood team are making an impact in the lives of people with learning and thinking differences.In celebration of Black History Month, Julian highlights four members of the Understood team: Berman Fenelus, Senior Content ProducerLivingston Steele, Social Media ManagerMisha Williams, Grants and Relationships ManagerDeb Wilson, Chief People & Culture OfficerEach of them is making an impact in the lives of people with learning and thinking differences, from silencing shame and stigma to promoting inclusion. Learn the reasons why they choose to do this work.   Related resourcesBlack History Month: Celebrating Lois, Solange, and OctaviaWisdom for families from LeDerick Horne, poet with dyslexiaTo be Black in America with a learning disabilityEpisode transcriptJulian: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "The Opportunity Gap." Kids of color who have ADHD and other common learning differences often face a double stigma. And there's a lot that families can do to address the opportunity gap in our communities. This podcast explains key issues and offers tips to help you advocate for your child. My name is Julian Saavedra. I'm a father of two and an assistant principal in Philadelphia, where I've spent nearly 20 years working in public schools. I'll be your host. Welcome to Season 3. Today's episode is a really unique one and I'm super hyped about it. February is Black History Month. It's a time to honor and celebrate the rich cultural heritage, the contributions, and the sacrifices of African Americans. Now y'all know I'm an educator, and I'm a Black male educator. So, it's only right that I share some history with you a little bit. Let's get ready. Ring the bell. Class is in session. Let's take it back. The story of Black History Month begins in 1915, half a century after the 13th Amendment to the Constitution abolished slavery in the United States. In September of 1915, a Harvard-trained historian named Carter G. Woodson and a minister named James E. Moreland founded the Association for the Study of Negro Life in History. This organization took immense pride in researching and promoting the achievements by Black Americans. In 1926, they sponsored a National Negro History Week, and they chose the second week of February to coincide with the birthdays of Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. By the late 1960s, Negro History Week had evolved into Black History Month on many college campuses all across the country. This was thanks to the Civil Rights movement and a growing awareness of Black identity. President Gerald Ford officially recognized Black History Month in 1976. That's right y'all. The president recognized Black History Month in 1976. He called upon the public to seize the opportunity to honor the too-often neglected accomplishments of Black Americans in every area of endeavor throughout our history. So, now that our history has been shared — class is over now — now that our history has been shared, let me explain today's special, special episode. Last year on the show, we did something a little different. We celebrated three Black women: science fiction author Octavia E. Butler, Grammy Award winner Solange Knowles, and activist Lois Curtis. All of them have been changemakers in their own way. And if you haven't checked that episode out, please make sure you go back and check it out. This year, we're going to switch it up a little bit. This year, we're celebrating our own here, right at Understood: Berman Fenelus, Livingston Steele, Misha Williams, and Deb Wilson. We're calling this episode "Diverse impact: Champions of change at Understood." I think everyone's going to enjoy getting to know them. Getting to know their role right here at Understood, and learning how they're making a difference in the lives of kids and adults with learning and thinking differences. I am so, so excited for them to be on the show. So first up, please welcome Berman. Berman, what's really good? How are you? Welcome to the show!Berman: Thanks. Thanks for having me.Julian: Berman, can you introduce yourself to the audience and tell us a little bit about the work you do here at Understood? Berman: My name is Berman Fenelus, senior content producer at Understood. And I create content across the board for our partnerships, for our internal videos, and social. Julian: What kind of content do you create? Berman: It varies. There's some content that we work with individuals that have learning and thinking differences but aren't necessarily, you know, like actors or talent. And, we also create content with experts that help guide people through difficult situations. Some stuff is animation, but overall, most of the content is here to help people learn how to achieve and thrive to be the best they can be. Julian: How are you making an impact?Berman: From this job I've learned to be very conscious of what I put on the screen and what we output and how people could receive it. And I think, I just I'm always open to trying to make things as accessible to as many different people as possible. Julian: Since you've been on Understood, has there been an experience that's felt super rewarding? Berman: There's been tons of experiences. When we were working on "Quarantine Chronicles," which was a series about families with kids with learning and taking differences. We got really close with a lot of the families, and we learned just as much as they learned from us. And also we recently did a campaign called "Many Faces of Learning and Thinking Differences," where we spoke to different individuals of wide backgrounds in different ages, and I learned more from the person, from the nine-year-old, than I did from the oldest person there. But I also learned from that person, because their experiences are unique to that time, and they were kind of like a timestamp of what it was like growing up with the learning and thinking differences during that time. Julian: Learning from one another's experiences, I love that. Thank you Berman. Next up, Livingston. Livingston is the social media manager for Understood. Livingston, what's going on? Welcome to the OG. Livingston: Hey, Julian. Thank you for having me. Julian: As the social media manager. How are you making a difference? Livingston: As a social media manager, we're making a difference by creating different ways of showing people who have learning and thinking differences that they're not alone. Julian: What's the most rewarding part of your job? Livingston: The most rewarding thing of my job is being able to relate to millions of people who I would have never been able to. In a way, connect different types of pain points or things that we go through with having ADHD, whether you're 10 years old or you're 40. Julian: Can you tell us about a time you were able to relate to a person that you didn't expect to? Livingston: There was a time where I was on the podcast with — for "ADHD Aha!" with Laura — and I didn't expect to relate to her in understanding of having ADHD and dealing with perfectionism. From a person that's — she's a director — I wouldn't have assumed that she would have had ADHD or would have went through the same situations I went through, like growing up and like trying to get ahead or trying to mask my ADHD. Julian: Sometimes we have a lot more in common than we think we do. Thanks, Livingston. Now let's talk to Misha. Misha is the grants and relationships manager. Misha, can you tell us a little bit about the work you do here at Understood? Misha: Yes. And so, I am the grants and relationships manager. So, that means that I spend my time bringing funds to the organization by writing grants and building relationships with foundations that are interested in funding our mission. Julian: What made you decide to do this work, specifically here at Understood? Misha: I came to Understood because I found out that a family member of mine, was diagnosed with dyslexia. However, she is 50 years old. And so for her, a lot of things started to make sense. However, kind of sucked that it took that long for her to find out. And so, just thinking about the implications of going undiagnosed for so long on her life and pretty much everything that she's done, made me want to be in a space where I could help foster change and, especially intersectionally. And I came to Understood because, what I saw on the website and what I heard from other people about the work that's being done here. It seemed like something that was really important to be funded, and I wanted to be a part of that and help build out that arm for fundraising. Julian: You are so right. It's very important work that needs to be funded. Thank you. Misha. Deb is the chief people and culture officer for Understood. Welcome to the show Deb! Deb: Julian, thanks for inviting me. I'm so glad to be here today. Julian: Deb, can you tell us a little bit about your role at Understood? Deb: Yeah, sure. So, I've been at Understood — just for a short period of time — since May of last year. And I lead the people and culture team, which literally means all aspects of HR. And, so I'll speak to three of those aspects of my role today. So, as you know, our people are a huge asset. And so, building new capabilities, whether we are the originators or rather we're leveraging relationships to learn new skills, helps our people grow. And, you know, as an educator, Julian, that when people feel that they are growing, they are more engaged. So, that's a critical part of my role. Also, we have an office-first, in-person culture. So, leveraging our beautiful office in the West Village as part of our engagement strategy is key. Again, this helps to support collaboration and our core value of growing together. Julian: Deb, but I really have to ask. In your opinion, why is it so important for organizations like Understood to embrace the idea of diversity? Deb: Yeah, Julian. So, Understood's vision, shaping the world for difference so that all employees who learn and think differently can thrive at every stage of life, truly speaks for itself. All people who learn and think differently. Twenty million people visit our website, Understood.org, every year. And the data shows us that once learning and thinking differences are embraced, and inclusivity is truly valued, confidence is built. Community is created, jobs become careers, and life is more fulfilling. Finally, I'll say, my colleagues tell me that working at Understood is more than a job. It's a mission to shape the world for difference. Julian: Thanks for joining us, Deb. I want to give a big shout-out and a big thank you to Berman, Livingston, Misha, and Deb for joining us today. I admire all of their brilliance and all of their efforts to make a difference for the so many people who are living with learning and thinking differences across this nation. They are an integral part of the Understood's team. Listeners, I really hope that you enjoyed today's episode. Until next time! Enjoy Black History Month. Celebrate our culture, celebrate the achievements, the challenges, the struggles, and everything else that we have overcome. Wish you an enjoyable Black History Month. Let me check up with y'all later on. Thank you for listening. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks, edited by Cin Pim. Ilana Millner is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show for the Understood Podcast Network. Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Thanks for listening and see you next time. 

Download: Tools to help faith leaders include kids struggling with behavior and social skills

Raising kids in faith is important to many families. But it can be hard for kids who struggle with behavior and social skills to take part in religious services. Some kids have trouble sitting still, or speak out at the wrong time. Others may have ADHD, autism, and other challenges.How can you make sure your child is included in your faith community? These tools can help. You’ll find:A fact sheet you can give to your faith leader. It includes research from Andrew Whitehead of Clemson University. It also has recommendations from Jewish, Muslim, and Christian inclusion experts.An information card to help your faith leader understand your child’s challenges and what your child needs to take part in religious services. There’s a blank version to fill out, and a sample you can look at.If it’s more comfortable for you, you can send the fact sheet to your faith leader anonymously. Keep in mind that most faith leaders want to help. But they might need help understanding how to help.

Impulsive extrovert or ADHD? (Sam’s story)

After treating her depression, Sam Salmons felt “fixed, but still broken.” Then her therapist saw her pattern of impulsivity and suggested an ADHD test.Before her ADHD diagnosis, accountant Sam Salmons felt “fixed, but still broken.” As a young adult, she spent years in therapy, treated her depression, and had a laundry list of coping skills. So, why couldn’t she stop her body from doing things — like interrupting — that her mind didn’t want to do? Sam saw herself as an “extroverted extrovert.” She was constantly talking and impulsively saying yes to everything. Then her therapist recommended an ADHD evaluation.Related resourcesADHD in girls: Overlooked?What causes trouble with self-control?How ADHD is diagnosed in adultsEpisode transcriptSamantha: My "aha" moment was at a work conference. I'm listening at lunch to this presenter who I really want to hear what he has to say, and I know nothing I will say will add value. And yet there's this intrinsic desire to say something, say something, say something. And then I go through this kind of internal dialog of shaming myself into not saying anything, and then my body just says it. Laura: From the Understood Podcast Network. This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they or someone they know has ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I'm the editorial director here at Understood. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. I am so excited to be here today with Sam Salmon. Sam is a listener who wrote in. Thank you for listening, thank you for writing in Sam. She is also an accountant who is based in Virginia Beach. So thank you for being here. Samantha: I am so excited. And I mean, I kind of wrote in just to like, thank you for what you do because it really helped me. And then you were like, "Would you like to come on?" And I'm like "Stop." Laura: We like to sneak attack on people like that. Samantha: I know I'm over here just like, "Girl, let me give you a compliment!" Laura: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Let's start, Sam, with you at 23. What was that, about five years ago? Samantha: Yes. So, 23 was that special moment in between, I'm not depressed anymore, but I can't do the simple things I feel like everyone else my age around me is doing. It was this whole imposter syndrome of, you know, I have a job and I'm paying bills and I have a good friend group and I go out and do things and like, I can't take out the trash, I can't do the dishes. There's some huge mental block that happens when I go to like, do these simple things. And then I feel like, am I depressed because I can't get up and do this task? I'm sitting here on the couch yelling at myself internally, like "You have no excuses, why can't you do it?" So then I'm sitting there mad at myself and I'm like, am I depressed because I can't get up and do something? I've done the things I was told to do. I took my medications, I tried to take out alcohol. I mean, there was probably a period in the six months to one year before my diagnosis when I bought my home and it was on the tail end of Covid when everybody's returning to the office and I was working out, I had a life coach, I had a therapist, I had a psychiatrist, I did an elimination diet, I took vitamins, I went sober I think from alcohol for five months. I mean, I was doing all the things that in the little social media "Oh, holistically, you can fix things. You can fix your mental health if you just do these things." OK. I did all the things and still can't take out the trash. Laura: And so, this whole idea of "fixed" in quotes but "still broken." That was first of all, that was the subject line of the email that you wrote into that was certainly attention-grabbing. So, it sounds like you had been doing a lot of things to get your mental health on track, and yet something was still off. The next step I want to... the next beat, I guess for your story that I want to touch on is, I need you to tell us about the work conference. So this is when you're, how old? You're 20... Samantha: I am 26. Laura: Now you're 26, and you are at a work conference. You're an accountant. Samantha: I'm an accountant. I love accounting. I am a nerd at heart. So I'm at a fraud audit conference. Laura: Oh, that sounds like a blast. Yeah. Samantha: Oh, my God. It was so exciting. Laura: It's funny because other people would think that you were being sarcastic, but you're not. It was so exciting to you. Samantha: No, like, legit. And it was the first conference in-person post-COVID. So at this fraud accounting conference — back in the world, back to talking to people — I'm ecstatic, but I'm a professional. And so I'm trying to rein in my excitement. And it is day two, little tired, lunchtime. Me and some coworkers are sitting at a longer lunch table, and at the end was one of the presenters that went and his was so thrilling. Very exciting, no sarcasm. It was so engaging. I loved it. So, I wanted to hear more about what this guy had to say. So he's talking and I'm engaged, I'm excited, I want to hear what he has to say. And then I get this overwhelming urge to talk. And it's like, "Sam, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Like you have nothing of value to add. He's the expert. You want to hear what he has to say. Anything you say adds nothing."And I knew it. Then, all I could think about was not saying something. That took away from me listening because I was so — I don't want to say like, self-shaming — but I was kind of like, "Sam, if you say something you're going to take away from the moment, could be embarrassing, it's not the time and place. You’re a professional like, keep it together. Like let this man talk, he's the expert."And this went on for a few minutes, and all of a sudden, I say something. Don't know what I said, but I knew after I said it, it added nothing of value. And everybody kind of looked at me and said, "Uh huh." And then the guy went back to talking, just as I had imagined in my brain it would go. And then I sat there and I was like, "I don't get it. I literally didn't want to talk. I did everything to not talk. Why? Why do I feel like my body and my mouth run before my brain?"And It brought up moments where I had been talked to in my youth about thinking before you speak. I have no concept of that. Do you think before you talk out loud? like, that's how I process stuff. Like I never understood that. Or like, waiting your turn to talk. Politeness, professionalism, respect. A lot of those big words, especially in the business world, come up very often. Like there's a level of professionalism expected of you. And not only does your appearance, but your behavior has to match. And I just sat there and I was like, "I don't get it. I didn't want to do this. Why did I do it?" And then I thought of childhood. Think before you speak. No concept of that. Then it brought me back to this memory of freshman year of college. We're all sitting kind of in this dorm hallway in between classes. I hate silence. I can't stand silence. And I guess there was a break in the conversation, we're all kind of just chillin. And I said something. Once again, no idea what I said, just filling space. And this girl looked at me and she goes, "Sam, sometimes when you talk, I feel like you just, like, waste air for everyone else." Laura: Oh, dear. OK, so this is... that's intense. That's painful. Samantha: So here I am at this conference feeling like I did, at that dorm hallway freshman year, and I was just like, oh, my God, I literally for months after that comment from that girl, I really reined it in. I was like, "Oh my God," it just was this thing of shame for something I couldn't control. Laura: You've painted a really colorful picture of you at this conference. And I really, I'm imagining time really slowing down. I mean, talk about an "aha" moment, right? Like you've got the connection to your past. You've been here before, but now it's more acute. You're older. You know, you've processed a little bit more, maybe not all the way. That's big, right? And no matter what everybody else at that conference was thinking of you in that moment — which probably was not nearly as dire as what was going on in your own mind — that moment for you is such a light bulb. Like, that's. That's the show. We can cut it right here. That's "ADHD Aha!."Samantha: Literally. And that's not even the part where I realized I had ADHD. That was just me... Laura: Well, then I digress. Let's keep going. Samantha: Yeah, this story ain't over. I mean, that was the moment where I felt just the shame of my life of interrupting, lack of control over things that I didn't even want to do in the first place and I thought I was past it. That's what was hard. Was "Oh, I'm not in college anymore. I'm an adult. I own a home. I have a degree. I'm doing, like, a very professional job." Laura: Right. You're being treated for depression and anxiety. You're working on your mental health. Samantha: I'm not even really depressed anymore. Laura: Exactly!Samantha: I'm doing all the things. I'm having a healthy diet, you know, not depressed anymore. That was my thing, was... Laura: Yeah, you're like "Everything must be fixed," right? Samantha: I should be good to go! So a week after the conference, I had therapy and, oh, I love my therapist. She calls it as she sees it. But I had only recently started seeing her on recommendation from my psychiatrist. So I'm talking to her about the conference. And that was the big thing. At one, I was worried if I'd even have the energy because I exhaust quickly (which now makes sense), but also the inability to shut up. Why can't I shut up? And, you know, I'd been talking to her for a few months now, and she had asked me, she was like "Is this something, you know, that commonly happens?" And I told the story about the freshman dorm "you waste air for everyone else" comment and just kind of always feeling like my body did things that I would tell myself not to do. And yet, there I was doing it or saying it. Then she asked me a few other questions and I'm like, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, all the time." And she was like, "Have you ever been fully diagnosed? Have you done a full diagnostic workup?" And I was like "What are you talking about? I've been in therapy for six years. Like, I've done the little 14-question surveys on depression and anxiety." And she said "No, no, no. Like multiple tests. Like hundreds of questions, full workup, everything." And I was like, "No." And she was like, "I'm so sorry someone hasn't done that for you yet. But I'm pretty sure you might have either Bipolar Manic or ADHD. But definitely, something besides depression and anxiety is running your engine pretty much." Laura: How did that make you feel? I remember when we talked last, you mentioned I'm just an extrovert, right? I am an extroverted extrovert. That is what I told myself. And that's how I lived, when I had these outbursts, that was my excuse. That was my reasoning. And ironically, years of therapy and depression, anxiety, I thought I was like all hipped to the mental health, mental illness world. I thought I, yeah, I had depression wholeheartedly, 100%. But then I didn't know that you could have others. Like I thought "Oh, yeah, that's the thing. Let me fix it." But then I wasn't fixed. And so it went down this rabbit hole of her kind of highlighting some previous conversations I've had about things I've done since I've been working with her, stories I had and she is like "This seems to be a very common trend with you and impulsivity and inhibition to control." And she said, "The talking is just a piece." Laura: So you're talking with your therapist and this impulsivity theme comes up and you have this image of yourself as "I'm an extroverted extrovert, I'm talkative." Right? Which is, by the way, as a key reason why so many women go under the radar for so long because, like, "It's a female trait. She's just chatty" Right? "She's just chatty." But I want to talk more about impulsivity. Tell me what your body feels like. What does impulsivity feel like in your body? Samantha: So, I guess the best kind of example would be doing chores around my house. It's as if I'm on an autopilot to what's in front of me. It's, I'm cleaning upstairs, I got to take laundry downstairs, well, I have to pass by the dishes. Well, OK, "I should really get those dishes done. At least unload the dishwasher." Well, then I'm looking at putting this mug back on the shelf while I really want to wipe down that shelf. I go to grab a rag. OK. Well, I passed by the Swiffer. Oh, I've dog hair everywhere, "I should really swiffer that up." And then I'm looking at the uncompleted project that I'm also working on that I'm just walking past ignoring fully because I'm like, "Oh, well, you know, if I'm going to do that, I think I still got to go to the store and grab this, been meaning to do that for months." But it's a very autopilot...Laura: Right, just do, do, do. Samantha: And there was that thing before I was told possibly this is ADHD. there was a lot of anger at myself for not being able to control that. Also with going out and socializing. If, you know, I go out and meet people for dinner and they're like, "You know, I'm feeling like going out." I'm like, "Yeah, let's do that." And next thing you know, I'm doing tequila shots on a Monday night. Laura: So, not thinking, right? Samantha: It was yeah, like it just was I knew I had work the next day. I knew I had responsibilities. I mean, or if I'm not even drinking, I'm just out. Yeah. And then I'm spending money. Laura: Then you're saying, yes. You're spending money. You're saying yes to everything, right? You're saying yes to life and like, on autopilot. Is that accurate? Samantha: Yeah, it's literally this autopilot. But then there's so much shame in the after-effect. And that's where I think my therapist noticed, is these are things I'm not wanting to do, yet I'm doing them. I know I wanted to go home and go to bed, yet I found myself out and about. Laura: Yeah, that's really profound. That's a big moment. Samantha: So, I finally get officially diagnosed, which during the exam she said, "Do you realize when you get focused, you start humming?" And I go, "What?" No idea. And then, I forgot what the time frame of the questions were being asked halfway through the test. I'm like, writing all these things and this and that, and she's like, "I haven't even graded this, but I'm pretty sure I'm on the money." And sure enough, she was. And so I'm telling coworkers and friends and I'm saying, "Hey, I'm pursuing this path of my health, of getting diagnosed. There might be medication. I don't know how I'm going to react because my history with depression medication. You know, it's exhausting to adjust and regulate and it's physically wearing and it's mentally wearing. And so, I kind of wanted to give the heads up of "I'm going to be pursuing this path. I want to keep you up to date." I had great coworkers that were really supportive, but then some were like. "Well, yeah. You didn't already know you had ADHD?" Laura: Yeah, that's right. Samantha: I was in therapy for six years. Wouldn't I be the first to know? You know, that's the thing was it was this anger I had of, I was in therapy, I was doing everything I was supposed to do. How come no one caught this? How come I went this long without getting help? It was just mad, I think, at society for letting me go and believe that I couldn't have ADHD. So there's a Maya Angelou quote, "Do the best you can until you know better. Then, when you know better, do better." Laura: It's beautiful. Samantha: And that is how I feel like the whole source of anger washed away. I'm criticizing this path I was on. It went on unnoticed or undiagnosed for so long. But everyone around me, everyone on my path, even me, we didn't know. Laura: And now I think it's fair to say, like you do know better now, you've had so many realizations over the last few years. So like, what does that mean for you now, today? Samantha: Just that acceptance of, people can only work with what they know. And to advocate, to educate, to talk. Your podcast, amazing for talking about these moments where people are like, "I thought everything was fine and dandy, and then "aha," I could use and benefit from this help." Laura: That's beautiful. Extra points for using "aha" as well. Samantha: That's like the bingo word. Laura: Sam, your story is so gorgeous and so well shared. I have to commend you on the amount of detail that you bring. I've just been just basking in everything you've been saying and all of the moments that you painted. And this whole time I'm like "Am I talking too much?"Laura: You're the guest. It's your show today baby! Samantha: I know! But, thank you. Laura: You've been listening to "ADHD Aha!" from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. We have no affiliation with pharmaceutical companies. Learn more at Understood.org/mission. "ADHD Aha!" is produced by Jessamine Molli. Say hi Jessamine!Jessamine: Hi everyone. Laura: Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. For the Understood Podcast Network, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, Seth Melnick is our executive producer, and I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

12 movies to help kids learn empathy

Kids with social skills issues may struggle with empathy — the ability to understand and relate to the feelings of others. This can make it hard for them to make friends and navigate social situations. These 12 films can help kids learn how to put themselves in someone else’s shoes.(Common Sense Media’s recommended ages are only a guide, and may not be right for every child.)It’s the Great Pumpkin, Charlie BrownThe animated film It’s the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown features well-known Peanuts characters Charlie Brown, Linus, Lucy, and Snoopy. The plot is simple. Linus hopes for a visit from The Great Pumpkin, but no one else believes in him. The characters are sometimes mean to each other, but that’s a good opportunity to kick off a discussion about the feelings of others.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 4+ Rated: Not rated Discussion questions to ask your childWhen is Charlie Brown happy? When is he sad?How can you tell that Snoopy takes his Halloween costume very seriously?Why does Lucy get Linus from the pumpkin patch and put him to bed?Beauty and the BeastMagic turns an arrogant prince into an ugly beast. To try to break the spell, the beast takes a young woman named Belle captive in his castle. She starts to see the beast’s inner beauty, but her village marches to destroy him. The music, story, and animations in Disney’s Beauty and the Beast movie will captivate kids — raising questions about the nature of appearances.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 6+ Rated: GDiscussion questions to ask your childWhat is Belle feeling when she agrees to be the Beast’s captive?Why is Gaston surprised that Belle doesn’t want to marry him?Why do the villagers want to destroy the beast?Inside OutInside Out is an animated Pixar film about the feelings of an 11-year-old girl named Riley. Anger, Sadness, Joy, Fear, and Disgust are all characters in the film. They must work together to help Riley make the right decisions in life. Inside Out is more serious than a typical Pixar movie, but it can teach kids a lot about emotions. (Read why Inside Out is great for kids with attention issues.)Common Sense Media recommended ages: 6+ Rated: PGDiscussion questions to ask your childWhy is it hard for Riley to tell her parents how she is feeling?How does Bing Bong feel when he helps Joy escape?What does it mean to have “mixed emotions” about something?E.T.: The Extra-TerrestrialIn the classic family film E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, a young boy named Elliott makes friends with an alien who is stranded on Earth. Elliott tries to help E.T. “go home.” But other humans are afraid of E.T., and government scientists try to catch and study the alien. This film can help kids explore how people see others who are different.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 7+ Rated: PGDiscussion questions to ask your childWhy do the kids and adults see E.T. differently?Could Elliott have talked to his mom about E.T.? Why or why not?Did you know that the director, Steven Spielberg, has dyslexia? Do you think that helped him relate to the characters, and how?ZootopiaIn a world where animals can talk, a rabbit named Judy Hopps and a fox named Nick Wilde team up to solve a kidnapping case. Zootopia is an exciting crime mystery that has lots of jokes that will go over kids’ heads (and that parents may love). But it’s a great tool for helping kids learn about tolerance and the danger of stereotypes.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 8+ Rated: PGDiscussion questions to ask your childWhat kinds of stereotypes do the animals of Zootopia have about rabbits and foxes?How do Judy’s and Nick’s opinions about each other change in the film?Is there something human society can learn from Zootopia?Fiddler on the RoofFiddler on the Roof is an epic musical story of Jews in Ukraine facing religious persecution while trying to hold on to their traditions. The main character is Tevye. He butts heads with his daughters over marriage, and they are all threatened by a hostile government. Fiddler on the Roof can help kids understand how cultures shape people.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 10+ Rated: GDiscussion questions to ask your childAt the start of the film, Tevye sings “If I were a rich man…” Have you ever felt like him?Why do Tevye and his daughters disagree about marriage?Do you know of any people today who are persecuted because of their religion?Napoleon DynamiteThis sweet, quirky film about a social misfit in high school will not appeal to all kids. But those who march to a different beat may like Napoleon Dynamite. The wide range of characters in the film is also a good jumping-off point for conversations about the uniqueness of every person.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 11+ Rated: PGDiscussion questions to ask your childIs Napoleon’s life in a small town in Idaho similar to or different from your life?How do Napoleon and Pedro try to show that they care about others?What kinds of hopes do the different characters in the film have?BullyBully is a powerful documentary about the impact of bullying in America. Through heartbreaking real-life stories, the film takes on issues of name-calling, physical violence, and teen suicide. This movie is intense and not appropriate for every child. It’s probably best to watch this film together with your child.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 12+ Rated: PG-13Discussion questions to ask your childHow do the kids who are bullied feel? Have you ever felt that way?Why do you think it’s so hard for kids to stand up when another child is bullied?How can kids and adults help stop the problem of bullying?The Sisterhood of the Traveling PantsFour high school friends separate for the summer and keep in touch by mailing letters and a pair of blue jeans to each other. During the summer, they learn about friendship, family, love, and loss. The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants can help kids talk about how people go through and respond to different experiences.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 12+ Rated: PGDiscussion questions to ask your childWhich character do you identify with the most? Why?When something bad happens in your life, do you ever feel like it happens for a reason?How can you be mad at someone and love them at the same time?To Kill a Mockingbird“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view.” So says Atticus Finch, a lawyer who decides to defend a Black man accused of rape in the 1930s Deep South. This classic film teaches kids about the impact of racism. To Kill a Mockingbird can also help kids understand the importance of not judging others by their appearance.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 12+ Rated: Not ratedDiscussion questions to ask your childDo you think you could stand up like Atticus to fight for what’s right?Why is the character Boo Radley so misunderstood?What do you think the jurors are thinking as they consider the case?The Breakfast ClubIn The Breakfast Club, five high school students — some popular and others not — spend Saturday detention together. They end up setting aside their differences to learn about one another’s hopes, fears, and dreams. There’s a lot of racy content in this film, but it can help your teen learn about social dynamics in high school.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 15+ Rated: RDiscussion questions to ask your childDoes your high school have cliques like in the movie? (Read ways to help teens handle cliques.)Which student in the movie is the most like you?Do you think the students will continue to be friends when they go back to school the next week? Why or why not?Do the Right ThingSpike Lee’s Do the Right Thing is set in Harlem, New York, and follows a story of racial unrest that takes place over a single day around a pizza parlor. Throughout the film, characters speak directly to the camera to share their viewpoints. Do the Right Thing can help your child learn about how misunderstandings can shape real-life events.Common Sense Media recommended ages: 16+ Rated: RDiscussion questions to ask your childHow does music represent different characters’ viewpoints of the world?Do you have more understanding for each character when you learn more about their lives?What do you think is the cause of racism?

ADHD treatment without medication: What are my options?

There are many ways to treat ADHD without medication or in addition to medication. Learn about options ranging from behavior therapy to free apps. There are many ways to treat ADHD without medication — or in addition to medication. Learn about a wide range of ADHD treatments, from therapy to free apps and tools. Host Dr. Roberto Olivardia also talks about social and workplace supports. Listen as he answers common questions, like whether diet or supplements can help with ADHD.Can ADHD be treated without medication? [00:51] What is cognitive behavior therapy? [01:54] What are some common coping mechanisms for treating ADHD? [04:19] How can social supports help with ADHD? [05:53] How can assistive technology help with ADHD? [07:53] Should I change my diet or take supplements to help with ADHD? [08:43] What about workplace accommodations for ADHD? [09:41] Key takeaways, next episode, and credits [10:31] Related resourcesWhat is cognitive behavioral therapy?8 common ADHD myths5 oddly specific ADHD strategies that help me at workHow to ask for a workplace accommodationCan “color sound” help us get things done?Episode transcriptYou’re listening to Season 2 of Understood Explains: ADHD Diagnosis in Adults.Today’s episode answers the question “How can I treat ADHD without medication?”My name is Dr. Roberto Olivardia, and I’m a clinical psychologist with more than 20 years of experience evaluating people for things like ADHD. I’m also one of the millions of people who have been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. I’ll be your host.My goal here is to answer the most common questions about ADHD diagnosis. Along the way, you’ll learn a lot about ADHD in general. We’re going to do this quickly — in the next 10 or so minutes. So, let’s get to it.Can ADHD be treated without medication? [00:51] The answer to this first question is…ABSOLUTELY! While it’s true that many people benefit from ADHD meds, it’s very common for people to learn to manage their symptoms without medication. It’s also not unusual for someone newly diagnosed with ADHD to start out taking medication and eventually stop using it once they’ve got other helpful supports in place.There’s an incredible range of non-medication supports, and this includes everything from working with a therapist to setting calendar reminders on your phone. But for today’s episode, I’m going to group non-medication supports into four big categories:Cognitive behavioral therapy, or CBTCoping mechanismsSocial supports, andAssistive technologyNow, these are all pretty fancy-sounding terms for what are actually fairly simple ideas. I’m going to spend the next few minutes telling you a bit about each one and how they can help you thrive — with or without ADHD medication.What is cognitive behavioral therapy? [01:54]CBT’s a common form of talk therapy:It gets you to look at your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.It shows you how to replace negative thoughts with more realistic, positive ones.And it helps you change behaviors that are causing problems in everyday life.As a psychologist, I spend a lot of time doing CBT.Here’s a recent example: One of my patients, who is a college student, said to me, “There is no way I can write a 40-page thesis, so why try?” He was doing what psychologists call catastrophizing. This is a common kind of thinking trap — or cognitive distortion — where people assume the worst will happen. Unfortunately, this kind of thinking is especially common among folks like me who have ADHD.But the good news is that CBT can help us catch ourselves having these kinds of distorted thoughts and reframe the way we’re thinking or responding.So in the case of this college student, I helped him stop and think about the accuracy of what he was saying. Instead of “There’s no way I can write this super-long paper,” he realized what he was actually thinking was “I am overwhelmed at the thought of writing this paper,” which is totally valid. Reframing his thinking helped him start taking steps to get parts of the project done, like outlining the paper, scheduling time to write each section, getting support from his professor. And you know what? He ended up writing a great 40-page paper!I use CBT all the time to help my patients. I also use it to help myself. In fact, this past weekend I ran a 5K, my first since the pandemic started. I was a bit out of practice, and right around the first mile-marker, I was having a lot of negative, unhelpful thoughts, like “You used to run 5K’s with ease. You ran a half-marathon. But now you’re totally sucking wind and you’re barely a full mile in.” Not helpful. But I noticed those thoughts and replaced them with more positive ones, like “I’ve done this before and I can do it again. I’m grateful that I’m healthy enough to even try to run a 5K.” So these are just a couple examples of how CBT can be such an incredibly powerful tool for treating ADHD — because it helps reframe thinking in ways that can positively impact our behavior. And, just so you know, I did indeed finish that 5K last weekend. I was a hot, sweaty mess, but I was a hot, sweaty mess who made it to the finish line!What are some common coping mechanisms for treating ADHD? [04:18] There are so many strategies or mechanisms that can help you cope with ADHD. It’s really a matter of finding the ones that work best for you. Many people find that exercising daily helps “burn off” the excess energy that often comes with ADHD.Making to-do lists is another common coping mechanism, although you have to watch out and make sure your list doesn’t get too long. Using color-coding can also help you prioritize what’s on the list.And when you’re working on something, it’s often helpful to take short breaks every hour or so. Even if it’s just a minute or two of breathing exercises, that can help clear your mind so you can focus on whatever needs to get done.The key is to develop coping strategies that are healthy and effective. For example, you may think that drinking a few beers every night helps you relax so you can fall asleep. But the alcohol may be affecting the quality of your sleep in ways that make you feel even more tired the next day. And drinking too much can be harmful to your health in other ways too.A more effective strategy to help you unwind at night might be to avoid caffeine late in the day, do some light stretching before bed, and then maybe listen to a boring podcast — although hopefully not this one. 😄When it comes to developing coping strategies, I always tell my patients: As long as it doesn’t hurt you or anyone else, go with it. Also, keep track of the strategies you’re trying. Sometimes it can take multiple tries before something sticks — or before you decide you need to move on to a different strategy.How can social supports help with ADHD? [05:53] Social supports can come in many different forms. At home, it can be telling your spouse or roommate how ADHD affects your brain — not as an excuse, but to help them understand what’s challenging for you. At work, a social support might be asking a co-worker for help getting started on a new or confusing task.My social skills have always been a big asset for me, especially when I was growing up with undiagnosed ADHD. Connecting to other people was a powerful source of stimulation for me. Building relationships with my classmates and teachers helped me be more present, which helped me pay attention. But after I was diagnosed with ADHD, and I understood some of my behaviors better, I was able to explain to family and friends why I struggled with certain things — like procrastinating in school or hyperfocusing on things I like.I wasn’t using ADHD to make excuses. I was enlisting the support of others to help me figure out what I needed to succeed. One big point I want to emphasize here is that leaning on social supports doesn’t mean you have to tell everyone you have ADHD. It just means you’re reaching out, engaging with the world, and asking for help if needed — instead of isolating yourself and letting your problems snowball. When it comes to social supports, I often tell my patients two things…First, there is no shame in having ADHD. Never let shame keep you from asking for what you need and using any supports that are available to you.Second, don’t apologize for having ADHD. There are a lot of myths and misconceptions out there, so you may need to educate people when you’re enlisting their support. No, ADHD isn’t about being lazy or unmotivated. No, it’s not something kids grow out of as they get older.And if you want help debunking these and other common ADHD myths, check out the Understood.org resources we link to in the show notes for this episode. How can assistive technology help with ADHD? [07:52] There are lots and lots of apps and other tools that can help people with ADHD get organized. Some of this technology may come built into your phone. For example:Use a timer to help you focus on a task for a set time period like, say, 30 minutes, and then take a one- or two-minute break. Set up auto-pay for expenses you know you have the funds to cover every month.Use a “brown noise” app or a “pink noise” app to help you concentrate. These apps play sounds that can drown out distractions and keep you focused.Once you have the right technology supports in place, they can be super helpful. But be patient and keep reminding yourself that technology gets easier once you learn how to use it. Should I change my diet or take supplements to help with ADHD? [08:43]There are definitely some changes you can make to your diet to help with ADHD, like avoiding caffeine late in the day so you don’t make it harder to wind down at night. There’s also some pretty good research that suggests consuming more omega-3’s — like the kind found in salmon and sardines — can also help manage some ADHD symptoms. But there’s not as much research to support taking supplements like zinc or ginkgo biloba or St. John’s wort. The big cautionary note here is to talk with your doctor before you start taking any supplements. I’m urging this for two reasons:First, because supplements could affect any prescription medications you might be taking.Second, I want to mention, just in general, that too much of anything — even if it’s a good thing — could have unintended effects.So be sure to talk with your health care provider.What about workplace accommodations for ADHD? [09:40]So this is a huge topic that we could do an entire podcast on, but I want to at least mention here that you can ask your boss for workplace supports to help with your ADHD. One example might be wearing noise-canceling headphones at work. Or asking to have important meetings earlier in the day rather than late in the afternoon when it might be harder for you to focus. There are laws that protect people with disabilities from discrimination in the workplace, and there are a lot of free or low-cost things that can help improve your productivity with ADHD. So think about talking with your manager. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode, where we’ll include resources on how to ask for workplace accommodations.Key takeaway, next episode, and credit [10:30]OK, listeners, that’s it for Episode 6. The key takeaway I’m hoping sticks with you from this episode is that there are lots of non-medication treatments and strategies for ADHD that can help make your life easier. Be your biggest supporter, and don’t be afraid to advocate for what you need to succeed.Thanks for listening. I hope you’ll join me for Episode 7, which explains how to prepare emotionally for an ADHD diagnosis.You’ve been listening to Season 2 of Understood Explains from the Understood Podcast Network. If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources, as well as links to anything we’ve mentioned in the episode. One important note: I don’t prescribe ADHD medication and I don’t have any affiliation with pharmaceutical companies — and neither does Understood. This podcast is intended solely for informational purposes and is not a substitute for a professional diagnosis or for medical advice or treatment. Talk with your health care provider before making any medical decisions.Understood Explains is produced by Julie Rawe and Cody Nelson, who also edited the show. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show.For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.

Related services for kids who learn and think differently

Does your child participate in a social skills group at school? Maybe your child goes for speech-language therapy once a week. Or perhaps the teacher works with an occupational therapist to find ways to improve your child’s writing skills. These are all ways of benefiting from related services.Learn more about these types of services and how kids who learn and think differently get them.What are related services?Related services are most often part of an IEP. Kids usually get them along with some sort of specialized instruction, as part of special education. But in some schools, they are the special instruction. That may happen when a child doesn’t get any other services.The main goal of these services isn’t to offer special education. It’s to help kids benefit from general education. They help make it easier for kids to participate in class and in afterschool activities.For some kids, that might mean transportation services. For others, it’s the help the classroom teacher gets from a professional to create and use a behavior plan.How students qualify for related servicesOften, related services go hand in hand with special education. But some kids might only need the related service.Different states and school districts deal with this in different ways. The federal law says states can decide to allow related services to be the only form of special education a child gets. In that case, the related service is a child’s specialized instruction.There may be other cases where kids don’t qualify for special education. But they can still get related services under Section 504. This might happen when a child’s challenges don’t have an effect on learning.Here’s an example. A child with dyspraxia may need occupational therapy to help with motor planning. But this child doesn’t need academic help. So occupational therapy may be provided under a 504 plan instead of an IEP.What related services can includeRelated services are as varied and individual as the kids who use them. The federal special education law, IDEA, lists the following as possible related services:Speech-language and audiology servicesInterpreting servicesPsychological servicesOccupational and physical therapyRecreation, including therapeutic recreationEarly identification and evaluation of disabilities in childrenCounseling services, including rehabilitation counselingOrientation and mobilityMedical services (but only for diagnostic or evaluation purposes, not for ongoing treatment)School health and/or school nurse servicesSocial work servicesParent counseling and trainingIt’s important to know that if there’s a service your child needs and it’s not on the list, such as assistive technology, IDEA says the team should consider it.If you’re just getting started, learn more about the differences between IEPs and 504 plans. Discover more about supports and services and how your child can get them. And if you’re seeking special education for your child, learn how the process works.

Twice-exceptional Black and brown kids

Kids who have learning and thinking differences can also be gifted. But what does being “twice exceptional” mean when you’re marginalized?Kids who have learning and thinking differences or other disabilities can also be gifted. This is known as being “twice exceptional,” or “2e.” But what does twice exceptional mean for Black and brown kids? In this episode, hosts Julian Saavedra and Marissa Wallace explore how kids who struggle with learning can also have incredible talents and skills. But for marginalized kids, these abilities are often overlooked. Gifted testing may be biased against them. The hosts react to startling statistics about how few kids of color are in gifted programs. Listen for thoughts and advice on how families can get schools to focus on their kids’ exceptional abilities, not just their challenges.Related resourcesGifted children’s challenges with learning and thinking differences12 questions to ask your school about 2e studentsWhen gifted kids need accommodations, too (In It podcast episode)National Center for Education StatisticsPublic school gifted or 2e programs mentioned in this episode:Montgomery County Public Schools twice exceptional students and servicesChicago’s U-46 gifted and talented academy (in process of renaming) Aurora Public Schools definition of gifted and talentedArizona Public Media news article on Southwest Junior HighEpisode transcriptJulian: Welcome to "The Opportunity Gap," a podcast for families of kids of color who learn and think differently. We explore issues of privilege, race, and identity. And our goal is to help you advocate for your child. I'm Julian Saavedra.Marissa: And I'm Marissa Wallace. Julian and I worked together for years as teachers in a public charter school in Philadelphia, where we saw opportunity gaps firsthand.Julian: And we're both parents of kids of color. So this is personal to us.Welcome back to "The Opportunity Gap." What's up, Marissa?Marissa: Good to be back. How are you doing, Julian?Julian: I've got to take a deep breath. If I'm being honest.Marissa: We can do that.Julian: Today was a day. Today was a day. You know, tomorrow's a new day, so we start fresh tomorrow and we see where it goes.Marissa: And it's Friday tomorrow.Julian: It is Friday. Fri-yay!Marissa: And Lincoln's birthday! We have a 6-year-old in our house tomorrow, so that's happening.Julian: Oh, snap, OK. What are you going to do for the little guy?Marissa: He's actually going to have a dance party. So he's having a hip-hop-themed dance party.Julian: Well, hopefully his dad is not going to be teaching him how to dance. Because I've seen that man try to get on the floor and he just needs to sit down, take a seat.Marissa: Lincoln's got it.Julian: Lincoln will dance circles around him. I'm sure he'll do the wobble and everything else. So, I'm actually pretty hyped about today's episode because it really is hitting at the intersection of a lot of the things that we've been talking about. And so I want to really dig in and dive in to the idea that there's so many exceptional students out there. So many students that have gifted possibilities. So many students that also have learning disabilities and learning and thinking differences. And so many of them that are Black and brown students that are not being given the services that they deserve.So let's go into Julian as a teacher. Back in the day, I was the history teacher, and I was definitely a popular teacher and the kids liked me. But I also knew that there was a lot of things I didn't know about how to teach, especially when it came to students with learning and thinking differences. And I remember this one student, his parents were immigrants. They were refugees. They had come from Central America, and neither one of them spoke English. But he had learned English on his own, and he was kind of a quiet, brooding type. He'd kind of chill in the back, not really talk too much. But he had been identified as having a learning disability. And so a lot of his teachers thought that he didn't really want to be engaged with the activity. He'd never acted out or anything. He just kind of just sat there and didn't really do much. So this one in particular, though, because I taught history, for some reason, it sparked an interest in him.And so, when he came to my class, we would have these crazy-deep conversations about his thoughts on history. When I taught about World War II, he had such an in-depth knowledge of Nazism and of the Allied forces. He could name every single general on the Allied side, with the correct pronunciation for the French generals. He could name the different battles. He could tell me every single type of airplane, the B-52s, and all of the things that were involved in this war. And I found out that he had gone home and memorized everything. And I'm sitting there like, "Bro, you've been sitting in the back of this class for the last, like, three months, not saying a word. And then out of nowhere, you come out and have all of these facts. Where does this come from?"So, as I got to know him more, I've found that the learning disability manifests itself in his struggle to stay focused in the moment. But if he found something that interested him, he was completely bought in. And so we worked together with him and some other male teachers, kind of got together and really tried to push him to show what he really knew. And over time we found out that he really loved writing, he really loved history, and he loved to write about his experiences. He graduated eighth grade, he went on to high school, he went to college, and he has just finished writing his first book.Marissa: Wow.Julian: And he is going to different places around the world to learn more about the history so that he can write about them. He actually participated in Bernie Sanders' campaign. And one of the coolest pictures that I've ever seen is this student in the back with the Bern, hanging out with him during this campaign. And I'm thinking back to when he was an eighth grader, sitting in the back of my class, telling me about World War II and Allies and communism and Nazism, and here he is, working with this man that is in big-time politics. And it makes me think, "Why did we never test him to see if he was gifted?"Marissa: Absolutely. Thank you, Julian, for sharing that story. I think it's really a fantastic way to start this conversation. If I think back to 12 years ago and where I was as an educator, I don't think I was able to navigate students who had this twice exceptionality.Before we really get in, let's talk a little bit first and foremost about some of these definitions, right? So, when we're talking about twice-exceptional kids, understanding first, this idea of gifted, right? So what gifted is, is this exceptional talent or a natural ability compared to others, right? So, if we look at, like, you know, what's considered average, these are individuals who perform above average compared to their peers and their experiences, their environments. They're performing above average. So, a child or individual who's twice exceptional is a child who also has this gifted ability, this exceptionality, and also a disability. So, some other ways we can think about it, right, is a kid who has learning and thinking differences but also has, like, a really exceptional ability when it comes to their cognitive ability, their processing skills, right?There's, like, natural talent that they have. I know parents, I talked to there's this reference to 2e, if you hear Julia and I interchange and say the word 2e —Julian: It's like a superhero: 2e.Marissa: Twice exceptional. Yes, exactly! Right. I love it. Like, it's such a cool term. I think it's still like, we're breaking through some barriers in this conversation today. But I'd love for us to just keep these terms in mind as we go through the conversation and just give them some power in some shout-outs.So let's just dive in to what does giftedness mean for Black and brown kids? Let's start with that.Julian: I will say that my personal experience is that I have lived as a Black man in this society. I am also Hispanic, but my primary experience has been as a member of the African American community. When I think about students, though, specifically Black and brown all across this country, giftedness is — it's a very unclear topic. Traditionally, giftedness falls into the academic realm. There's a variety of tests that are taken, and those tests relate to an IQ score. And that score is determining whether or not that student is considered gifted because their score puts them so far above what the average IQ tests would be for the average student.So, let's unpack that a little bit. As we know, or maybe you don't know, standardized tests historically have been very biased, from the way that they are written, the questions that they are asking, the background knowledge that they are referencing. And in many cases, the people that are giving the test, all of those things include biases that are oppressive to marginalized communities and specifically the Black and brown kids.The prevalence of those tests and the identification process for students to potentially even be considered gifted also is not nearly as strong in urban communities where many of our Black and brown kids live. It's one of the things that gets cut first, when we talk about schools that are strapped for cash.And so all of that leads to a situation where many of our students are not even being pushed to be considered as being gifted in the academic realm. But on a personal level, I'm also thinking of the idea of this word "exceptionalism." You said when you define "gifted," it's being exceptional. So, for somebody that lives in a society that is already designed to support a specific group of people, on a racial level, for them to exist, just to exist, that, in my view, makes them exceptional. For somebody to have multiple barriers to success, whether it be socioeconomic status, whether it be race, ethnicity, language, documentation or lack thereof, and still to be able to be successful and thrive in that. Doesn't that make them exceptional too?Marissa: We haven't even started to talk about the other ways in which someone can be exceptional. All the creative ways in which someone can show forth art, music, talents that we don't look at either. I think just overall there's like this lack of looking at strength and looking at, and like you said, like, what are we comparing it to? You said it perfectly when you were talking through how these standardized tests and the assessments and what is done to go through the evaluation process to be identified as gifted. It is very biased, and it's just not happening in a lot of schools. Even just talking about the student you were sharing about in the beginning, that kid probably went through K through 12 without being identified for his exceptionality. And clearly he had an exceptional talent that thankfully you saw, but why did it have to take that long?And why did he have to be, like, the kid in the back of the classroom who's withdrawn?Julian: You multiply that by millions of people over decades, and you think about how many of our Black and brown students over decades of being in schools have not been even given a chance to increase their exposure to challenging topics, to show and demonstrate their giftedness.Marissa: So as we're kind of discussing this, Julian, you know, it keeps coming through my mind, like, you know, I know from my research alone that there is this overrepresentation of students in the Black and brown communities that are identified in special education, but an underrepresentation of Black and brown individuals within a gifted identification. So I'm curious, Andrew, what are our statistics in this area?Andrew: We had been talking, right, before this episode about some of the statistics around gifted education and disability. So, I looked it up on the National Center for Education Statistics, and, yeah, there is a disparity. Around 8 percent of white students and 13 percent of Asian American students in public schools are in gifted programs. And then by contrast, it's only about 5 percent of Hispanic students and 4 percent of Black students. It actually gets down even less than that in some years.Julian: Wow. A third for Asian versus Black and Hispanic.Andrew: And on the other side, if you look at kids with IEPs, comparing them by race, you know, again, Black students, 17 percent have IEPs, which is higher than the average of 14 percent of students. So, they're overidentified in special education, underidentified in terms of being part of those gifted programs. Interestingly enough, in those statistics are the underidentification for giftedness, just by a percentage, is actually bigger.Julian: I mean, I just have to let that sit for a second. Hearing those numbers, it always, it always hits home when the data speaks. And the data is speaking to us and saying that clearly what we're saying anecdotally is actually truth.Marissa: Exactly.Julian: What I'm interested in, though, is digging more into the fact that Asian and those who identify as white, the higher prevalence of those students in gifted programs. And wondering what are your thoughts on that? I mean, 13 percent of Asian students in gifted programs, like, that's a really fascinating number given that cohort of students is also a minority in our country.Andrew: As someone who's looked at this issue and is also Asian American, I feel like I can speak to this. So, the Asian American community is very diverse. If you look at Cambodian or Vietnamese Americans, for example, they are underrepresented in gifted programs, while other groups are overrepresented. People tend to lump all Asian Americans together, but there's actually a lot of differences between communities. You know, some groups came to the United States as refugees without any money or resources. Other groups came because they had some specialized skills and were recruited by companies. So, it's really hard to generalize and that's going to impact whether or not a family's kids have the advantages to be able to get into a gifted program or be in the right neighborhood. The other thing I would say is that just because you're in a gifted program, it may not be serving you in the best way. You know, a lot of the Asian American people that I speak to feel like there's not enough identification of Asian American kids for learning differences and ADHD. You know, the feeling is you're Asian American, you must, you're too smart. How do you have this problem? Just work harder.Julian: Well, that that's that model minority myth. And I love that you brought up the diversity within a subgroup.Marissa: Absolutely. Andrew, I appreciate you sharing some of that information and your experiences because it does, like, these statistics, while they're jarring, they're not surprising.Julian: Let's go back to our Black and brown kids' learning and thinking differences, but also gifted, 2e.Marissa: 2e, let's do it.Julian: Marissa, I'd love to hear more about what you've learned in your studies and your dissertation work, and in general, how does this play out?Marissa: The main thing is that in general, 2e students are not receiving appropriate programming across the board. I see that a lot, especially with our Black and brown students, because again, based on kind of the experiences they have within schools, educators are very quick to see a behavior. And that behavior becomes the problem they need to address. Right? So student's withdrawn; student can't sit still; student has outburst, right? They're calling out during class. There's behaviors that are disrupting what they believe an ideal classroom looks like. They must need support or services. So then the process usually starts where they're being evaluated to receive special education services.Now, oftentimes there is an aspect of it that does focus on academics and does focus on cognitive ability. Those tests are also done, correct? Now, I think more recently, we're starting to look at those scores more so than we did in the past and be like, "Oh, wow, like, this child is performing above average cognitively, academically," and then they are receiving that twice-exceptionality — that 2e — identification.What I think is missing, though, is I still feel like their programming is built upon the behaviors. So it was focusing on the disability part more so than actually challenging them. So now you're seeing situations where a highly intelligent kid is being pulled out, right? Or the weakness is being focused on and not the strength. And it's interesting right now, because I'm talking to families. And I don't know if this is, like, a solution, but it may be for some families. What's working? Some of the families that I work with now left brick-and-mortar schools because it was way more challenging, they felt, for their students to get their needs met there. But because of the flexibility of virtual learning and virtual programming, they're noticing their students who are identified as 2e are having some success because we have the power to be like, "Oh, you're an eighth-grade student, but you're performing above grade level in math? Great. Cool. We're going to put you in a geometry class." And so we can do that because they're not going to different classroom. You know what I'm saying? They're just, their schedule just looks different. They're just attending that 10th-grade class while being in eighth grade. I'm not saying virtual learning is the answer, per se, but I'm seeing it as something that some parents are becoming interested in seeing if this is the programming that works best for their child.Julian: I'm thinking just on a practical level, say I'm listening to Andrew, Marissa, and Julian talk about 2e and my child is showing signs that they may very well have exceptional ability, but maybe that child already has an IEP for any sort of learning disability. What do I do? What's my next step?Marissa: Well, one, talk to your student, right? Talk to your team. I always say the IEP team is, like, that first family of people you go to have conversations. And remember the IEP is the individualized education plan for your child. So those would be your first kind of, like, line of defense to start the conversation with. And then you as the parent have the right to be like, "Hey, my kid also needs this."One thing we should definitely go over too, Julian, is like the idea of a gifted IEP. Because I think even though it's not a federal mandate to have a gifted program, there are states, district, schools that do that and do it well. And so the parents have to know how to ask for those things to be put in place for your student.Julian: Anybody out there that's listening along with us — families, caretakers, guardians, friends, students, anybody. I mean, thinking about the letters IEP, there's a weight with those letters. There's a weight with that acronym. And sometimes that weight steers to a negative connotation — that it means something's wrong with you, so you need help, right? Like, "I have an IEP. That means that I need to get extra services because something's not clicking right." Let me be the one to tell you you're wrong. And if you think that's what an IEP only is about, you're wrong. An IEP is an individualized education program. It say things that people are going to do as a team to help the student be in an environment that is going to support them to get to the best possible potential.So, the idea that it's just weaknesses, the idea that it's just going to focus on things that are wrong? No. Don't think that at all, especially for my folks that are students of color, my folks that have already dealt with things that have happened in schools that might not be so great. I understand completely. I've worked in schools for a while, and I know that sometimes we are not treated the way that we deserve to be treated. We got to reframe that. We have to change that and realize that this is a place to be empowered. Having an IEP, especially, pushing the school to figure out what are they going to do for your child if they are gifted?Marissa: And that's the stepping stone.Julian: You got to go in there and ask questions.Marissa: Like, use it as a benefit. That's my push, it's like, regardless of how you got the IEP, right? If your child has the IEP and you feel that there's something missing and you feel they have an exceptionality, use that as that stepping stone, because it is a legal document. So, regardless of whether or not your particular school has a gifted program, like, utilize that to be able to then say, "Hey, like in addition to this particular accommodation or specially designed instruction to help my student with this behavior, can we also put in this extension or this activity or something that can also challenge them and meet their needs academically, as well?"Julian: I will say that I'm excited to be in the school district that I live in, where my own children attend. There is a pretty robust gifted program.Marissa: That's awesome.Julian: And what I've found out is that not only are all students eligible, they do a mandatory gifted screening for everybody. And when this gifted screening happens, if a student has an IEP or learning and thinking differences, any sort of assessments are also in place for the gifted screening. It makes sure that everybody has an even playing field. This program that I see these kids doing robotics and taking Legos and making these really cool structures, and they're going out and doing project-based learning.Marissa: And that's what it's all about. That's amazing.Julian: And the district I'm in, it's incredibly diverse. You have Black kids, white kids, Asian, everybody kind of coming together in these groups and really doing some big, powerful things.Marissa: You found the unicorn, Julian. You found the unicorn school district.Julian: I mean, it's not the unicorn, but it definitely is, well, this, I mean, we talked about earlier, like it's not something that should be a unicorn.Marissa: Exactly.Julian: And not to say that the district is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And Andrew has found examples of powerful things happening all across the country. So trust and believe, like, it's not only one place, outside of Philadelphia, that's happening. Like, it's all over the country.Marissa: Thank goodness.Andrew: There seem to be roses everywhere from all these different cracks, to borrow your analogy, Julian.Julian: Is somebody listening to Tupac?Marissa: Or listening to our podcast.Andrew: Again, right before we started recording, we did some research just to see, like, where are people doing some interesting things around both gifted programs for kids but also twice-exceptional programs. And there were some really interesting ones. I mean, you just mentioned the universal screening. So, Montgomery County public school district, in Maryland, they actually had some criticism over the years because their gifted programs are very slanted toward white kids. And they really made this effort to do the universal screening, as you mentioned. So, instead of just like you apply to the gifted program, they said, "No, we're not doing that. Every kid, we're going to see if they're gifted. And not only that — we're going to match them up with whatever the screening processes they have for disabilities for learning and thinking differences." And that's not perfect, but that's made some differences there, which I think are pretty cool.Chicago School District U-46 was really interesting because a lot of people say that they really prove that these gifted programs could be diverse and that they could integrate them. And that was a really cool thing to see. And Colorado — in Aurora Public Schools, what they did was they used different measures. So, you guys talked at the beginning about sort of having IQ tests that have been traditionally biased. Instead, they looked at all the different tests they were giving and they sort of applied them in different ways to make sure that their programs were diverse, were integrated, were not just slanted toward one group or another, but really captured everybody who is gifted.Julian: Oh, I love that. I love that it seems like they took theory to practice. I mean, the word "equity" and "anti-racism" has been the punchline of the year, but I love that I'm hearing about actual tangible changes that are benefiting everybody. And it seems like these programs you're talking about are exactly it, it's theory to practice. So, that's dope.Andrew: Let me share one more that I thought was really cool was in Yuma, Arizona. So, Southwest Junior High — and there's a center at Johns Hopkins for, like, talented youth, and they always identify the top 10 junior highs in the country, and they identified Southwest Junior High, near the Mexican-American border, which has a really great gifted program. And the demographics of that school are heavily Hispanic, a lot of immigrant families. So it was just cool to see that happening and to give, like, real concrete stuff. We'll put some links to these programs in the show notes. I'm sure if people dig in, there's always drawbacks, but it's still great to see some of these things happening.Marissa: There's no perfect scenario yet, right, that we know of, but at least there are educational systems that are taking steps in the right direction to do better.Julian: So, we just touched the tip of the iceberg. Just the tip of the iceberg. You know, anybody out there that is choosing to listen to us first, we appreciate it. We want to hear from you. We want to hear what you'd like us to discuss. What topics are you interested in? What things should we lift up specifically around the opportunity gap?You can always reach us at opportunitygap@understood.org. You can call Andrew; he's giving his personal number at the job.Andrew: That's actually the show voicemail.Julian: Just kidding, just kidding. 646-616-1213, extension 705. Again.Marissa: As parents, as educators, like, Julian and I have spent literally over a decade having these conversations, and so we know how meaningful it is for us to discuss some of these topics. So hearing your thoughts, and especially as we dig into something where it may be a new term, this 2e, this twice exceptionality, and we want to know if you have had experiences of success within your own families.Julian: Please, feel empowered to go to your schools or go to whomever you're dealing with in the educational pathways. What are they doing to help address giftedness? Are there programs out there? What is the gifted program availability? What does the screener look like? What ways are they challenging? Even if your student is not deemed to be gifted, they still deserve to be challenged, and they still deserve to have extra activities to meet their needs. Feel empowered to go in and ask.Julian: This has been "The Opportunity Gap," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "The Opportunity Gap" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.Marissa: If you found what you hear today valuable, please share the podcast. "The Opportunity Gap" is for you. We want to hear your voice.Go to u.org/opportunitygap to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G slash opportunity gap.Julian: Do you have something you'd like to say about the issues we discussed on this podcast? Email us at opportunitygap@understood.org. We'd love to share and react to your thoughts about "The Opportunity Gap."Marissa: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference. And we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors.Julian: Thanks again for listening.

Why some kids with ADHD are very popular

Many kids with ADHD have trouble with social skills and self-control, which can cause problems in their social life. That’s not always the case, however. Some kids with ADHD have strong social skills and winning personalities. While they may struggle with impulsivity, they can also be spontaneous and a lot of fun to be around. These kids can be “the life of the party” — leaders in their friend group and very popular with their peers. Learn about traits that make some kids with ADHD popular.Less self-conscious and more openKids with ADHD often lack inhibition — a symptom of ADHD that often causes problems. But it can sometimes be a benefit for kids who also have strong social skills.These kids may be more willing to share their ideas and their true personalities. They’re often less self-conscious than other kids. That willingness to reveal themselves allows them to be more open and genuine with other people.Lack of inhibition can make them feel freer to express themselves. If they have a unique way of looking at the world, they might reveal that instead of holding back. Their perspective might be funny, quirky, or provocative. And if they’re good with social interaction, that can make them especially interesting to be around.Willing to take positive risksImpulsivity and lack of self-control can lead many kids with ADHD to engage in risky behavior. But for some, it may also lead them to take positive risks and be adventurous.They may be less likely to second-guess themselves and more willing to try new things, even if it means failing. This type of child with ADHD might sign up for a junior decathlon and start training without having done any long-distance running. Or write a play and recruit other kids to perform it.This willingness to put themselves out there can make these kids extra fun to be around. They often push the envelope — in a good way — and energize the group with their enthusiasm.What to watch out for: Taking it too farWhile these traits can have an upside for some kids with ADHD, it doesn’t take much for them to turn into negatives. If kids aren’t able to keep tabs on the social cues around them or maintain self-control, they risk overdoing it and becoming annoying to other kids.They may say something inappropriate, tell a stupid joke, or do something show-offy. Unchecked, their impulsive behavior can turn off other kids. If your child tends to overdo it, get tips for helping kids manage overexcitement. Help your child learn to read other people’s body language. And if you want more information about ADHD, check out this printable ADHD fact sheet.

Why I chose to be a school counselor

Michaela Hearst shares how her nonverbal learning disabilities (NVLD) led her to a career where she supports kids with learning differences.Not many people are aware of nonverbal learning disabilities (NVLD). Fewer still know the challenges of finding a job when you have NVLD. Michaela Hearst, who has NVLD, shares her career journey — how she decided to be a school counselor so she could support students with learning differences. She describes tools and strategies she’s learned over the years, and how she teaches them to kids. And she talks about how a social work degree can lead to different career paths.Listen in. Then:Learn more about NVLD and the challenges it brings. Watch a video about what it’s like growing up with NVLD. Hear from a young person with ADHD on why he chose to be a teacher.Episode transcriptEleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.So our next guest is someone with a really unique story. Michaela Hearst is a school counselor in Vermont who works with middle and high school students. She has nonverbal learning disabilities and is going to share with us how her learning differences led her to her current job. Welcome, Michaela.Michaela: Hi, everyone. I'm Michaela Hearst. Thank you for that introduction. You took a lot of words right out of my mouth. It's been a very interesting journey that led me here.Eleni: Michaela, can you just give me a little quick summary of, you know, what you're doing right now?Michaela: My full title is student assistance professional counselor, or SAP, SAP counselor, or even counselor, that's fine. I serve as a resource in school for promoting mental health — super important — and substance misuse prevention, also super important. And I like tying in prevention education, which goes — of course you need that when you work in a high school, in a middle school. But I like tying that in with what it's like to be neurodivergent and the correlation between academic and social struggles and wanting to turn to substances. So that's one of the things that, going forward, I'm going to be focusing on.Eleni: We've actually never had anyone on the show with a nonverbal learning disability.Michaela: So, a first for everything. Eleni: Yeah. Could you like describe a little bit about what your challenges are and what that means for our audience? Michaela: You know, it's funny. I used to be asked that question and I used to know right off the bat. Just after a lot of self-searching and a lot of therapeutic processes, the answer isn't so clear cut anymore. But I think ultimately my struggles most of all are visual, spatial relations, depth perception, processing speed. And I have a lot of trouble self-starting, organization.Eleni: So you just shared that it can impact you spatially and things like that. Like what does that look like day to day?Michaela: Driving was something that I needed to work on for a long time. My relationship with driving is complicated in part because I was hit by a car. And obviously I survived and I was very, very, very lucky that day. But when the accident happened, it left me very apprehensive to drive for a very long time. And I was just crossing the street. I wasn't driving at the time. But, you know, driving requires a lot of visual, spatial awareness and depth perception. And I have my own car and I drive to work every day. And even when it terrifies me, I'm still like not there yet. It still scares me. But the only way I think I'm going to really push through it is the exposure therapy. If I just keep going and I feel a little bit better each time, which is good, this is good. So that's just one example of how I've made something work for me.Eleni: And you said that you're constantly learning about yourself, and there's been things that have surprised you or that you've only recently made the connection that it's related to your difference. Can you think of any recent examples of something that you've learnt about yourself?Michaela: Yeah, I've learned that some challenges just don't go away as much as that would be, you know, in an ideal world. But fact of the matter is my brain is wired differently and the way I speak, I go off on tangents. Sometimes I think faster than I can talk or I talk faster than I can think. And it's part of who I am and I'm still working on accepting that. Eleni: I know you've done a little bit of writing for Understood. We've done a number of blogs, and I read that in one of your blogs that you have really strong memory. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and any other strengths that you can think of that relate to, you know, your learning disability?Michaela: Yeah, I have a very, very, very strong memory. I remember things that most people with a neurotypical brain wouldn't. And that comes as both a blessing and a curse is I remember everything. So my joke is like, people have to watch what they say to me because I'm going to hold on to that forever. My brain will hold on to it. But again, it's both a blessing and a curse. People will come to me if they need help remembering some random thing that happened in fourth grade on a Tuesday. And my brain will just pick that up. And things that most of my classmates that I keep in touch with don't remember, but that's OK.Eleni: How did the memories come up for you? Is it like a visual memory? You know how people talk about memories being attached to like smells or like photographic memory and things like that. Like, what does it appear like for you? Michaela: There are times where everything is just so vivid and it feels like I'm back there again. You know, I remember the feel of my elementary school desks. I remember the way that the chairs felt when I had to sit in them for hours. I remember snack time being at 9:30 and my staring at the clock. I remember the songs that were stuck in my head because I was allowed to listen to my CD player on the bus. You know, I can immediately think, oh, fifth grade, and all those things will just come to my brain. I remember where I sat that entire year. I remember where I sat every single year, starting from first grade because that's when we had desks. So believe me when I say when I remember everything, I remember everything.Eleni: Yeah, I think it's so interesting that you say that after a lot of reflection and therapy, it kind of redefined what it means to you. Was there a particular moment where that shift happened or when you really learnt something about yourself?Michaela: Yeah, some of it, or most of it actually, was during COVID when I was trying to find a job and thinking about what I really wanted to do and how social work was still relevant to that. But I knew that I wanted a broader scope of ways to work with students. A lot of the introspection came from, if I was going to start working, I needed to consider a lot of things.I needed to get to know myself a little bit better and to come to terms with my challenges. Because in the past, I didn't always come to terms with what I really struggled with. And it took me a very long time to really open up about some of the things that I've been dealing with for years.Eleni: So we've talked a little bit about your nonverbal learning disabilities, or NVLDs. Let's transition a bit and talk about your job and your career. How did you decide to become a school counselor? And how did you decide to focus on learning differences? Where did it all start?Michaela: I knew from a youngish age that I wanted to be a psychologist. I used to, even in middle school, I used to go around saying that I was going to make people pay money to see my face and listen to me talk for an hour and give them advice, because that sounded really easy, right? No, it's not. But you know, that little running joke stuck with me all of those years.And I ended up majoring in psychology in college, and I took some time off to get my certificate, because I knew that I wanted to work with students with learning disabilities. I knew that I wanted to be in that field. I just wasn't sure what capacity yet. And then I thought about social work. And it felt like it would give me a whole wide range of opportunities that I might not necessarily get had I majored — gone for my master's in psychology. And I knew I wanted to provide students with support — and some support that I didn't necessarily receive.Eleni: Yeah. I was going to say, so you feel like you want to be that person that you didn't really have. Michaela: And I am that person in my school. I have students show up at my office all the time with different needs. And sometimes they just want to hang out. Sometimes they want to tell me something good that happened in their life. And I love that. Eleni: I'm glad that you can be there for them.Michaela: Yeah, me too. I definitely love it. It's challenging, but I'm doing what I love, and it's all I can really ask for, I think.Eleni: So you will making the distinction between social work and psychology. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you came to discover that distinction and then also figure out like what your niche would be and why working in a school might be the best fit for you?Michaela: I always knew that I wanted to work with students, even from the beginning of college. I knew that I wanted to work in the learning disabilities field. And then as time went on, I was like, I can see myself working in a school because I knew I wanted to be working with students. I kind of saw myself being a school social worker, but I knew that social work would have helped me find my way in terms of what I wanted to do and social work really combined the aspect of social justice, which I love, and the psychological aspect. And social workers, there's a lot of stigma and stereotypes about social workers and what we do. And those stereotypes are not true. We don't knock on doors and take away people's kids. That's not what we do.Social workers do a lot of things. And in my case, that means I wear different hats, right. I'm still an LMSW. I'm a licensed master social worker. But I combine that with my graduate certificate in learning disabilities, all my skills together, and everything I wanted to be doing as a student assistance professional. Eleni: Yeah. It's pretty cool that you are able to combine your interests in that way to like find the perfect role for you that fits in with both your interests and like your qualifications. What would you say is the biggest overlap between those two hats?Michaela: I mean, one of them is, like I said, the social justice aspect, knowing how to sit and counsel students and knowing how to complete referrals and make connections when need be. And then the other side of that is the educational component is my certificate in learning disabilities. And also my lived experience. So I have a dual background in education and social work, and what I'm doing now really combines the two in my very strong, but humble opinion. Eleni: I mean, that's what this show is about. It's about showcasing your strengths. I just want to go back to something you said earlier. So you said in school, you weren't necessarily getting the support that you needed or wanted. Do you want to talk a little bit about when you found out you had a nonverbal learning disability and how that showed up for you at school — and maybe even the kind of support that you would have liked that you're now reflecting back, thinking that you never really got at the time?Michaela: Yeah, this is always a heavy one, but I was diagnosed when I was 14. And yeah, it's a little late in the game, and I struggled for years before that, but my struggles weren't as clear cut. I was having a hard time with tests and getting my homework done by myself. But to be fair, I had a lot of homework and that never should have happened.I just really struggled, and my struggles only got worse until high school when I was failing my classes. And before I had just failed tests, I had never actually failed a class. So my parents were like, we want answers. And so I got diagnosed. And it provided us with a lot of answers, but at the same time, it was like, this is hard. This is really rough. Eleni: And it sounds like from there you were eventually able to go to college and get your degrees. What do you think helped you get to that place?Michaela: Well, I went to a school called Landmark College. It's for students with learning disabilities, and they just taught me so much. And I learned so many study strategies and writing strategies. And for the first time, I genuinely felt smart. Or I had that foundation to know how to feel smart. I just knew how to help myself, and that didn't stop with Landmark, but I'm still learning how to help myself. I'm still learning what I need. And you know, that goes back to what I said earlier about finding myself. It's a process and it didn't end with Landmark and it isn't ending with my work now. It's only beginning.Eleni: So you mentioned that you were able to apply like some of the things that you learned at Landmark later in life. How did that help you through your studies and even now in the work that you do? Michaela: I like to pass the things I learned on to my students, but I think of what was done with me at Landmark was I would go to a place called the Drake Center for Academic Support. You can go and make an appointment with a teacher or a tutor there, and they'll say, OK, what are you working on? And you can work on an essay or study strategies. And one of the things that Landmark did with me is working on learning how to read documents and saying, OK, what did I just read? What did I just learn? And that's one of the things that I do with my students. Eleni: It sounds like you're pretty open about your differences at work. Is it just with the kids, or is it also with your colleagues?Michaela: Kind of both. I've disclosed that part of why I am where I am in life now is my struggles have led me to my strengths and made me want to make a difference. And with my students, I'll say some things like, you know, if they tell me "I have dyslexia," "I have ADHD." And I said, "I get it. I have a learning disability myself." And some of them will look at me with these wide eyes. Like somebody gets it. And I said, "Where I am in life right now, like this did not happen overnight. But if I can get here, you can get here too. I'm just here to help you do that."Eleni: I hear that in my research a lot from people when they're reflecting back as adults, thinking about who made an impact in their lives. And it is often a teacher that shares, oh, I have ADHD too. I have dyslexia too. And just feeling like you're not alone and you can always see an adult who's successful, has a job, doing pretty good, can make a really big difference for a young person, definitely. Michaela: For sure. And I want to be that person. I went into this wanting to be that person.Eleni: So what do you find challenging about your job? Michaela: One of the things I find challenging is the burnout level. Because everybody is very tired right now. And I also wear another hat in supporting students and staff mental health. And I always want to make sure my students are staying on track. And that's why I set up weekly counseling meetings or check-in meetings with them. But I'm also here for staff and you really, you see things from the other perspective, when I was a student for so many years and I never knew what it was like to be a faculty member. Now I do. And I see that from both ends. And then another challenging part of it is, of course, when you work in a school, you deal with some challenging family systems and you have some behaviors that are rough to deal with. But I think the way that I deal with that for the most part is doing my own self-care and remembering that if a kid is acting out, it's, you know, coming from a place of pain and struggle. And my school's mentality is every student, every day, whatever it takes, we want to get to every student. And part of my job is to help keep up that motivation and morale.Eleni: So how do learning differences impact you at work? What challenges come with your learning disability?Michaela: I don't face LD-related challenges on the job so much as I know what I need to do to process information. So it's like, I tell students, if I have my notebook, don't worry about it. This is just how I process and remember information. And they're like, OK. None of them are really fazed by it, I don't think. My notebook is, especially when I'm working with students for the first time, I will write their name down, who their advisor is, some of the things that they tell me. But I also don't write down too much because I don't want to seem like I'm too intense. I also want it to be like, we're having a conversation. And I take my notebook to all of my meetings, and I just write things down and — I do calligraphy. And at this point I'm pretty proud of my handwriting overall, when it doesn't look like chicken scratch, it actually looks really nice.So I take my notebook and I'm able to refer to it. And it's how I stay organized. In some ways I'm kind of old school when it comes to staying organized. I liked my notebook instead of having everything in a million places on my phone. Eleni: So you just kind of communicate what helps you. And like, I know you said you didn't really feel supported at school. Like, do you feel a little bit more supported now at work? Michaela: Yeah. I work with such an amazing team. I told them I was doing this podcast. So shout-out to everyone I work with. You guys are awesome. Everyone at Twin Valley. Yeah, I just, I worked with an amazing team, and I have really found my niche working with teenagers and it works. It works with who I am as a person, with my sense of humor, with all of my skills. I just, I like that age group a lot. And it probably has something to do with the fact that I was diagnosed in high school, and high school in general just sucks for a lot of people. So if I can be the person that makes it kind of suck not as much — lack of a better way to say it — I think that's pretty cool. I got into this line of work because I was a kid growing up with an undiagnosed learning disability. So most of my students know I have a learning disability, or I say I'm neurodivergent. And a lot of my students are neurodivergent too. So I will mention briefly every so often that I'm here because of that struggle. That struggle led me to my strength. So when I get questions about what I do, I talk about being neurodivergent, having that lead me here, and then wanting to be that person that people can trust and open up to and be listened by. Eleni: It sounds like your own personal experiences make you really good at your job. Michaela: I have lived experience and the students are really able to relate to me, and they're drawn to me because of not just my age, but who I am as a person. And I've had students come in my office who have learning disabilities, who have dyslexia, who have ADHD. And this is hard to describe over a podcast, but I've said this to my colleagues and I've said it to some of my students. It's like, you're right here. You're right on one side. And on the other side is your full potential or the person that we can get you to be, not even just your full potential, because we don't know what your full potential is. But there's another place that we can get you. And we have to help build that bridge, connect those two places. If we can help build that bridge and help you cross it, that's part of my job. Eleni: Do you have any advice for anyone with a learning disability or difference that is looking for a job or a career and like maybe they have similar challenges to you?Michaela: Yeah. My advice or just something to remind you of is that your voice matters. You matter. I have students come in my office and I tell them that when you're in this room with me, or whenever, really, you matter. And I'm always going to tell you that you matter. And my job is to validate you and to listen to you and to hear you. And some of them have never heard that before. So what I want to say to people like me or to anybody: You matter, and you deserve to be heard and validated for your struggles. And some people are never going to get it because they're not in our shoes, but I get it. I get it. And I hear you and I see you and you're valid.I understand the challenges and the struggle, and I'm going to keep fighting. I'm going to keep doing what I love doing and hopefully make this world a little bit better than what it is now. Eleni: Yeah, I hope so. I think that it sounds like you are really making a difference for those students. Thanks so much for coming on.This has been "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a part of the Understood Podcast Network. You can listen and subscribe to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard today, tell someone about it. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Go to u.org/thatjob to share your thoughts and to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash that job.Do you have a learning difference and a job you're passionate about? Email us at thatjob@understood.org. If you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job, we'd love to hear from you. As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one, to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission. "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Andrew Lee and Justin D. Wright, who also wrote our theme song. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors. Thanks again for listening.

4 social situations to role-play with your grade-schooler

Kids develop a lot of social skills during grade school, but that doesn’t mean socializing is easy. It can be especially hard and stressful for some kids who learn and think differently. Role-playing can help your child feel prepared and also build social skills.1. Birthday partiesYour child is invited to a classmate’s party and is worried about what will be happening. Map out the scene for your child — where the party will take place, who will be there, and what the activities will be (you can ask the parent if you don’t know). Then role-play the event. What if the birthday boy is busy talking to other kids when your child arrives? How can your child greet him? What if another child brought the same exact gift? How should your child react? You can also practice goodbyes for when it’s time to leave the party.2. Playing at another child’s homeThis can be a tough one, because there are many social demands. Your child will have to make conversation, interact with unfamiliar adults, share and take turns, ask where things are, and follow rules that may be different from the rules at home.Go through all of these scenarios and give your child scripts for what to say. For example: “That’s a cool-looking toy. Can I see it when you’re finished playing?” Or “Excuse me, what should I do with my plate when I’m done?”3. Eating with other peopleYou’re having a meal with another family, and the conversation turns to something your child is interested in. Role-play how your child can join in without interrupting. Go over what a give-and-take conversation looks like and how to know when it’s a good time to talk and to stop talking. You can also practice what to say and do if your child doesn’t like the food or finishes before everyone else.4. Family gatheringsYou’re going to a family reunion with many guests, including some out-of-town relatives. An aunt your child has never met comes over and wants to chat. Practice how to make an introduction. For example: “Hello, my name is Sammy. I’m Jenelle’s son.”Rehearse what to say if someone asks your child how school is going — especially if it’s a struggle. Your child might respond with: “I really like the afterschool sports this year” or “I’ve made some new friends.” And if your child wants to play with a cousin’s video games, what’s the best way to ask? What if the cousin says no?You can practice role-playing before an upcoming social event or after a social situation that didn’t go as well as your child hoped. Over time, role-play can help your child develop both social skills and confidence.

How mentors empower kids who learn differently

What’s one way to empower kids who learn differently? Connect them with near-peer mentors who learn differently, too.  What’s one way to empower kids who learn differently? Connect them with near-peer mentors who learn differently, too. In this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Gretchen Vierstra talk with Marcus Soutra, president of Eye to Eye, a founding partner of Understood. Eye to Eye brings together middle school students who learn differently with high school and college students who also learn differently. Hear how mentoring can help kids gain self-awareness and build self-advocacy skills. Plus, hear from two college students, Lydia Blazey and Meera Shamiyeh, about what it’s like to be a mentor. Related resourcesCheck out Eye to Eye’s website and learn about the Strike Out Stigma campaign. What is self-advocacy?Episode transcriptAmanda: Hi, I'm Amanda Morin. I'm the director of thought leadership for Understood.org and a parent to kids who learn differently.Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood. And this is "In It."Amanda: "In It" is a podcast from the Understood Podcast Network. On the show, we talk to parents, caregivers, teachers, experts, and this week, college students. We offer perspective, stories, and advice for and from people who have challenges with reading, math, focus, and other types of learning disabilities, or sometimes known as LD. Gretchen: Today, we're talking about what a difference a mentor can make for kids with learning differences, especially when that mentor is a little bit older than you.Amanda: I believe the term is a near-peer.Gretchen: Yes, that's right. A near-peer.Amanda: And creating those near-peer mentoring opportunities is at the core of the work done by an organization we know called Eye to Eye. They bring together middle school students who learn differently with local high school and college students who also learn differently. Together, those students and their near-peer mentors tackle fun projects that are designed to help develop the skills kids who learn differently will need to thrive.Gretchen: We're talking with three people from Eye to Eye today. Marcus Soutra is the president of Eye to Eye.Amanda: And Meera and Lydia are undergraduates at the University of Pittsburgh, who serve as mentors to some local middle-schoolers. Each week, they get together with their mentees to work on an art project that's designed to help them build skills for learning, communicating, and self-advocating.Gretchen: Well, welcome, Marcus, Meera, and Lydia to "In It." We're so happy to have you here. Before we get going, I'd love it if you would each briefly introduce yourselves.Marcus: Sure. My name is Marcus Soutra. I'm the president of Eye to Eye, and, yeah, I'm very excited to be here with you all today. I live in Brooklyn, New York.Meera: My name is Meera. I'm currently a junior at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm studying psychology and German.Lydia: Hi, I'm Lydia. I'm currently a sophomore at the University of Pittsburgh. I'm a double major in English literature and a program of public and professional writing.Amanda: You know, so as Gretchen said, we're so glad to be speaking with all of you today. Marcus, I wonder if you could start us off with a little context. What is Eye to Eye?Marcus: So Eye to Eye is a national organization that is founded by and for people who learn differently. We work every day to empower students with learning disabilities all over the country. And the core of our work is around mentorship, organizing high school and college students who learn differently themselves mentoring middle school students who have been similarly identified. We also do a professional learning program for educators so that they can better support the needs of their students in the classroom. And we do youth leadership work.Amanda: Can you tell me how the mentoring component of it came to be?Marcus: Yeah, sure. So, I myself am somebody who learns differently, and I was always seeking out mentors myself. Growing up with a personal learning disability, it's a very isolating experience. So when we were beginning our work at Eye to Eye, we realized how important it would have been if I was 12 years old and I could have had somebody who was 18 years old, 20 years old, who understood what it was like to have a learning disability, what it was like to go through that experience in school, and to give me the tips and tricks to be able to be successful and also be that near-peer role model, someone that really could engage with me, understand, empathize with what I was going through.Amanda: So I do have some questions for Meera and Lydia. What does a typical mentoring session look like?Lydia: So we have an hour with the students at the school. We'll start with introductions and a game, you know, break the ice. A lot of times they just like to talk about their day and kind of catch up with us. You know, they've always got a lot going on that they want to share. And then we'll kind of go over what we did last week just to make sure that, you know, we're remembering and making sure that, you know, they're really making the connections to what we're doing in the art room and how it's able to help them outside of art room. And then we'll get into our project. So we have a different art project each week. We've got our lesson plans. We'll kind of explain it to them and then we'll get into working. We'll split up with our mentees, work on the project, and then come together at the end to kind of go over it and talk about what they've learned.Gretchen: What's a typical project that you do with your mentees?Lydia: Just this past week, we worked on these metacognition cards with the kids. A lot of Eye to Eye is about metacognition: How do we think? How do we learn? Reflecting on that, so that the kids can then be able to advocate for themselves in the classroom and say, "You know, this is the best way for me to learn," and be able to ask for help. And so these metacognition cards, you know, the comparison were Pokémon cards, where you write, you know, what are your strengths, what are your challenges? And it's almost like a video game in that way. And so I think that was a fun way to connect it to the kids. Although now, being a younger generation, Pokémon isn't quite as big of a thing as it was when we were younger. But we had comparisons and we were all decorating our cards. We had, you know, stickers, markers. And like I said, we do the projects along with them. So it's nice. You know, one of our mentors is really talented artistically, and so she was showing them her card and being able to say, "You know, here's what mine looks like," and we could walk through them. You know, I got to say, "I'm not great at listening to people. You know, I need something to read. I need something physically in front of me when I'm learning." And then we just got to have a conversation with the kids as they worked through this project. It was really fun.Amanda: It sounds really fun.Gretchen: It does. And I think Pokémon — I think the kids are still into Pokémon.Lydia: Maybe I'm a little out of touch.Gretchen: It sounds a lot to me that a lot of these projects are really giving your students or your mentees words — empowering words or words to describe their differences and their strengths. So do you see a lot of power in giving these students words like that?Meera: Yeah, absolutely. I think by having that language, that is what helps them, like, be able to advocate for themselves later on, like, you know, with high school teachers or with professors who might not be as understanding. Being able to have, I feel like, that confidence and the right language to be able to describe what they need, that can make, like, a world of difference in getting, like, accommodations and stuff.Amanda: Can you give me an example of what kind of language you're teaching them to use?Lydia: I think just teaching them even, you know, about accommodations and about talking about their learning difference as a learning difference rather than a disability and being able to say there are words to describe what you're going through. And I think that's a big part of feeling less alone when having a learning difference is, you know, there's already established language and established groups and movements around what you've been going through. So this isn't as isolating as it may seem when you first get diagnosed.Amanda: So that's such a good point, letting them know that people have already developed language that can help you have those conversations. Another thing that can be really cool is when kids come up with their own words to describe what's going on for them. And it makes me think of an interview we recently did with Lizzie Acker, a competitor on "The Great British Baking Show," who's talked a lot about having ADHD and dyslexia. She sometimes refers to what's going on in her head as "brain fuzz." Is that something you see kids doing, coming up with their own words?Marcus: Yeah, I think like I can, first of all, start with my own personal experience with that, my own kind of evolution on that, and then kind of talk about the students. But yeah, I think that was one of the hardest things growing up was not being able to put words to what was going on for you and really being able to articulate your struggle to other people and understand that struggle. Because a word like "dyslexia," to, especially to, like, a 12-year-old, it's like, "What does this mean and what does it mean for me?" There's this broad spectrum of neurodiversity. So like myself, like, as somebody who's dyslexic and ADHD, like, I would say, like, I have a text avoidance issue, like the way that — the analogy that I would use is, like, someone maybe has, like, a social anxiety, right? Like, doesn't want to go to an event, right? So they have to have to prepare themselves. They have to like kind of psych themselves up. They're going to be in social interactions, like, they probably have little ways of kind of coping and understanding and kind of dealing with it. I go through those same processes and procedures every time someone puts text in front of me, like, I'm like, "OK, you can do this. You know how to read. You can sit down." Like, when mail comes to our house, I immediately put it in a drawer and my wife takes it out and goes, "No, we need to read this right now." And because I just want to avoid text if I can, right? And most times I'm using my audio as ways of coping with that, however, but I think that that continues to happen. And, like, when I gained that language, like, that helped me bring this clarity to myself. And then we're able to articulate that it normalizes it for a young person. Like, I would imagine someone listening right now, it's like, "Oh my God, that — what Marcus just described — is how I experience text." And hopefully maybe my language is helping mentor them in that moment to give them that language as well. And we had a student one time we were working with, and before COVID, I used to visit the schools quite frequently and I was in the school at PS 76 in Harlem and on the West Side of Manhattan. And the students said to me they were doing this art project about their strengths and kind of correlating to their weaknesses and what other people perceived as their weaknesses. And he said, "You know, I don't read with my eyes, I read with my ears," and, like, that was just the way he perceived information best, right? He was just like, "That's how my brain works." And that mentee — I think he was, like, 11 years old — he gave me language in that moment that I didn't really have. And in that, in the day, he was making this big ear kind of a sculpture of an ear to represent. And he had all these words going into the ear to show that's how his brain received information. And he was going to throw out the art project. He was, like, not that impressed with his piece. I thought it was brilliant. So I actually have it in my office, and it's literally a sculpture of an ear with words going into it.Amanda: That's a beautiful example.Gretchen: So I love that you all work with middle school students, since I worked with middle school students for over 10 years, they're just like the core and my heart. They're so wonderful. And I know that teaching middle school students, there is just so much I learned about myself sometimes. And so I'm wondering, being a mentor, have you learned things from listening to your students? I'm wondering if you have any stories to share about this.Meera: I definitely think it's helped me a lot with becoming more patient with kids and more understanding. I think working with them has also helped me understand my own learning disability better. I was diagnosed pretty late in high school, and so I never really had that kind of mentoring experience. So I feel like sometimes I'm learning, like, right alongside the kids, and that's really helpful.Lydia: I was just going to say, with such a small group, we end up doing the projects alongside with the kids for the most part. And so a lot of times we are really, you know, doing these lessons ourselves and learning and talking about, you know, our own strengths and challenges and thinking about how we learn. Same thing as Meera, I got diagnosed pretty late. And so I never really had the language to talk about my LD or, you know, anyone to kind of reflect on what was happening in my life. It was very solitary, you know, like I couldn't compare my experiences with anyone else. And so I just kind of had to go about life as I was. And so I think being able to talk about this with a group of people, it's so much easier to see and to understand your LD in the context of learning and going to school, and you know, the different challenges we face.Amanda: Both Meera and Lydia, you said you were diagnosed much later in your lives. What would it have meant to you to have a Marcus come in and have a conversation with you and say, "I'm putting my mail in the drawer because I'm so, like, averse to reading it right now"? Would that have changed sort of your experience, do you think?Lydia: Whenever I kind of talk about like getting diagnosed — you know, in hindsight, doesn't feel that late, but I mean, in terms of school, I was 15, so I was a sophomore in high school, already close to graduating high school before figuring this out. And I think I got diagnosed and I got on medication, but then I just didn't really talk about it. I didn't have any friends with ADHD. I didn't know anyone who struggled in the same way that I did. You know, I was doing fine in school in terms of grades, but it just took me so long to do everything and it felt so weird. I was like, everyone else has all this free time and they're going out on, you know, weekdays to go hang out with friends, or they've got a test, but, oh, it won't take them that long to study. And it took me forever to do everything. And I just felt like, why is this taking me so long? Like, am I the only person who's spending the whole afternoon, whole evening, working on homework? So I think just having a community or having a mentor, someone to talk to and say, "Absolutely, you are not the only one who's, you know, functioning this way. You are not the only one who functions differently." I think that could have been, you know, such a helpful thing to have. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be that person for, you know, younger kids now.Amanda: Absolutely. Meera, how about you?Meera: Yeah. So growing up, I also had really, really bad anxiety, and a lot of that stemmed from ADHD and just not being able to manage it. I was also diagnosed around 15, and I think having someone who would have gone through, like, high school and college already having that experience and then being able to say, like, "Hey, it's OK, like, you'll make it through. You'll be OK at the end of the day." I think that would have just made a world of difference. I have a very vivid memory, and fourth grade, I would always be so nervous to turn my homework in, and because I was just so afraid. I am pretty bad at math. I always make like tiny mistakes and then those like, build up. And so I would never, ever turn my math homework in. And I remember, like, my dad brought me one day to school. I had a stack of papers, like, about an inch thick of just math homework, and he made me give it to the teacher. I always think about that as like a manifestation of, like, anxiety and ADHD kind of clashing. And I just think having somebody, you know, who's been through it and who kind of knew how to handle everything, you know, that could have been avoided. And it would have been really helpful for me growing up.Amanda: I just think how lucky the kids that you're with are to have this in front of them. You know, your personal experience makes such a difference.Gretchen: When you do these projects, has there ever been a like a light bulb moment for your mentees where they've said, "Oh gosh, now I realize this," or I don't know. I'm wondering if you've ever seen one of those moments go on in these sessions?Meera: I think so. I had one last week. It wasn't as dramatic as like, "Oh my gosh," but we have this one mentee and she's a little on the shy side. You know, she'll talk and talk and talk, but she has a little bit of a harder time staying on track. We're doing a project called Metacognition Tree, and she made this whole 3D tree, which was very cool, and she was just having so much fun, you know, coming up with all of her different strengths and how she can use them to her advantage. And I feel like just comparing that to how she was in the beginning of the year and seeing her being able to talk about it. That, for me, was really amazing.Gretchen: It sounds like there's definitely impact. Getting back to Marcus, I'm wondering how you're measuring that.Marcus: Yeah, we just actually published, about two years ago now, a study with UCSF that did a really deep dive into the outcomes of our work. And so we are focusing on things like self-advocacy and metacognition and agency for the young people and building a sense of community and connectedness to peers.What we found in that study was that we were not only we were increasing student self-esteem, we were increasing their connectedness to peers, their ability to advocate for themselves. But we also even found out that we were reducing students' depressive symptoms as a result of being in Eye to Eye, which was, you know, really difficult to see in some ways in the study because it showed how depressed some middle-schoolers really are, especially those that learn differently. But it also showed a lot of promise and hope because having just a near-peer role model, someone in their life that they could connect with and talk about these issues, had such an impact on those symptoms.I think that's something that we, not maybe not everybody on this call, I think we probably already knew it a few years ago, but in COVID really, really learned that, like, the emotional well-being of the child is so important to their academic success. And study after study keeps showing us that students with learning disabilities, for them to have successful life outcomes, they've got to have these skills. Not saying academic skills aren't important, but to set you up for good academic skills and have the opportunity to perform well in school, you've got to have knowledge of self, ability to advocate for yourself, and just a good emotional well-being. And we've even done some studies where we tracked students' academic performance as well in Eye to Eye and saw that the students who were in Eye to Eye were performing better academically than their peers who were not in Eye to Eye as a result of focusing on these things like self-esteem and self-advocacy and metacognition.Gretchen: I think Amanda and I would agree with you that knowing all of that is so important and the impact that it actually has on academic achievement. I know Amanda has written a lot about that for Understood.Amanda: The agency part, I think, is really important. You know, being able to be in charge of your own life and your life trajectory matters so much. And I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I think it gets lost in the shuffle sometimes that, especially kids who learn differently, they need to be making decisions for themselves.Gretchen: I'm so glad to hear all those impacts, and so it makes me wonder — what are your plans for expanding this program?Marcus: Well, we are actively looking for schools all the time to sign up for Eye to Eye. We're working in 22 different states around the country right now with the mentoring program specifically. So if there are school leaders out there or moms out there or dads out there that want to bring Eye to Eye to their school, simply go to our website and just click that Bring Eye to Eye to Your School button.Gretchen: Oh, good.Amanda: I love that it's just a button that says Bring Eye to Eye to Your School. I love that.Gretchen: I was going to say the same thing! The button is awesome. It's just so easy — click a button.Marcus: Just click the button. It's like a — it's a very short, very dyslexic-friendly form.Gretchen: Yes, you heard it out there, people. Click the button.Amanda: So we have asked you a million gazillion questions today. Are there questions that we didn't ask you that you wished we had?Meera: Oh, I just wanted to mention, I think it's just really cool that we're able to be a safe space for these students, and you know, they can have a place where they don't have to kind of put up a front all the time like they do usually in school. And it's just really cool.Amanda: That's great. I'm really glad you're willing to be that space. That's something to be commended and recognized, too, is it's not easy. And you're also going to college at the same time and being that space. You're doing great things and we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today, knowing that you're doing all of this at the same time. So thank you so much.Gretchen: Thank you so much.Lydia: Thank you, guys.Gretchen: To learn more about Eye to Eye, go to E Y E TO E Y E national dot org. [eyetoeyenational.org]Amanda: You've been listening to "In It," part of the Understood Podcast Network.Gretchen: You can listen and subscribe to "In It" wherever you get your podcasts.Amanda: And if you like what you heard today, please tell somebody about it.Gretchen: Share it with the parents you know.Amanda: Share with somebody else who might have a child who learns differently and maybe needs a near-peer mentor.Gretchen: Or send a link to your favorite teacher.Amanda: "In It" is for you. So we want to make sure that you're getting what you need.Gretchen: Go to u.org/init to find resources from every episode. That's the letter U, as in Understood, dot O R G, slash in it.Amanda: And please share your thoughts with us. You can email us at init@understood.org. Or you can leave us a message at 646-616-1213, extension 703. That number again is 646-616-1213, extension 703. And we might just share what you have to say on a future episode.Gretchen: As a nonprofit and social impact organization, Understood relies on the help of listeners like you to create podcasts like this one to reach and support more people in more places. We have an ambitious mission to shape the world for difference, and we welcome you to join us in achieving our goals. Learn more at understood.org/mission.Amanda: "In It" is produced by Julie Subrin. Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Mike Ericco wrote our theme music. Laura Key is our editorial director at Understood. Scott Cocchiere is our creative director. And Seth Melnick and Briana Berry are our production directors.Gretchen: Thanks for listening, everyone. And thanks for always being in it with us.