Sorry, I Missed This: He has ADHD. She doesn’t. What actually helps this real couple communicate

Your partner has rehearsed this conversation 10 times. You’re walking in at one. No wonder it goes sideways.

Dani Burford doesn’t have ADHD, but her husband, Sean, does, along with OCD tendencies. Dani, who works in marketing at Understood.org, joins Cate for a casual, practical conversation about the systems that help them stay on the same team.

She explains how they use things like the “care meter,” a 1-to-10 rating that ends three-hour debates about paint colors, the mess monster, and who takes the blame for last night’s dishes. And why asking “What script did you write for me?” can calm a worst-case spiral. 

Dani and Cate explain the importance of talking about how you talk, the benefits of putting time limits on hard talks, and why alone time doesn’t mean “I don’t want to be with you.” They also discuss what to do when your way of getting things done doesn’t work for your partner’s brain — and why it’s rarely about you.

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Dani Burford: I'll be like, "What was the script that you wrote for me? What did you think I was going to say?" Just so I can understand where his brain is. He's like, "I know it's irrational." And I was like, "Well, I'm glad you know it's irrational, but that's not what anxiety is. That's not what OCD is.

So, when you're having these conversations with yourself, what was going to be the thing that I said that you were prepared to say something back?"

Cate Osborn: That's Dani Burford, who works here in marketing at Understood.org. In this episode, Dani and I sit down to have a very fun, very casual conversation about life with and as a neurodivergent partner, and real practical solutions that Dani has found work really, really well for her in her relationship.

Yes, understanding the hows and whys of ADHD is really, really important, but sometimes I've found that it's just really useful to sit down and hear from somebody who is living it on the day-to-day. What systems do they actually use? What conversation starters do they have in their back pocket when it's time to have a difficult conversation? And that's what this conversation with Dani is all about.

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry I Missed This," the show where we talk about all things ADHD and its impact on sex, intimacy, relationships, communication, and more. As always, it's me, your host, Cate Osborn.

Now, dear listeners, this may shock you, but Dani is a rarity on this show. She is neurotypical, but her partner is ADHD with OCD tendencies. And as a result, Dani and her partner have worked very hard to build systems and structures that recognize and acknowledge the struggles that come with living with ADHD, but also include and support both partners on both sides of the equation.

And obviously, what works for one person may not work for you, but sometimes hearing what somebody is doing and utilizing on a day-to-day basis will give you the inspiration that you need to create a lasting system and structure that is actually going to stick.

I have it on very good authority that you have done a lot of work around communicating with and supporting and building systems and structures that work for you and your neurodivergent partner in your relationship. Is that true? I don't know why I was like, "Is that true?"

Dani: Is that true? No, it's a lie! No, definitely true. My husband, Sean, who has very graciously given me the green light to do this podcast, he has ADHD with OCD tendencies, and he didn't get diagnosed until later on in our relationship, and I don't have ADHD.

When I first met Sean, there were definitely really big miscommunications, and I remember there was some sort of fight, and Sean stopped and he was like, "Wait, we're on the same team. We want the same thing. So, what can we do to talk to each other that can help us?" And that was kind of my snap-on moment of like, "Oh, we just communicate differently."

Cate: What were the places that you really started noticing, like, "Oh, we really do approach these things differently"?

(03:03) Dani explains the communication disconnects she and her husband noticed early on.

Dani: Something for me that happened very quickly was realizing that there was a disconnect between "What did you hear me say?" versus what I actually said. It's not just a neurodivergent thing at all, but I do think that there is a lens to it when you are someone who is not neurodivergent and then someone who is neurodivergent.

Sean's coming in because he's practiced this conversation 10 or 15 times. I'm coming into this conversation at one. So, I might not be following the script that he's written, and that can be really destabilizing. It really can. Especially if all of a sudden I didn't say the worst-case scenario.

So, I think we started practicing these little moments of like, "What did you hear me say?" versus "What I actually said." And that helped me figure out: this is how I can say this differently so that it's more accessible.

But then that also comes with the weight on the person who's having to make those concessions. And I feel guilty for even saying it, you know, or having these thoughts of like, I always feel like I'm the one that's coming to the table, or I'm the one that's making these concessions. And that's how it felt for a little while while I was understanding what we needed.

Cate: Sometimes it can be really difficult as the partner of someone to also have to name the discomfort. But I think it is really important, because a lot of times what winds up happening is a lot of resentment and guilt and anger builds up, because you don't even feel like you can name the ADHD elephant in the room.

How did you work on getting a little bit more comfortable when it came to sort of starting those harder conversations?

Dani: I think it very much starts with your partner allowing you space. Because if I felt like he didn't trust me or that I didn't trust him, I wouldn't feel safe to explore that guilt and then try and make my way out of it.

So, I think that just being as honest as you possibly can — obviously there's a difference between being honest and rude, and I think being as honest as you can without minimizing and without taking away any of the seriousness of the conversation too.

Because something that I always do is — I'll throw a joke in there, you know, I'll deflect. And something that Sean really asked me to do, he was like, "Hey, if something's serious to you, it's better if you use a serious tone with me, because my brain has a hard time with understanding if we're having a serious conversation and you throw a joke in there."

And so, allowing myself to be open and honest of like, "Hey, I feel really guilty that it feels like me against your ADHD right now. But it doesn't feel like me against Sean. It feels like I'm battling a neurodivergence, which is also a thing that makes him so beautiful and makes him so powerful, and our relationship so great, and him one of the most interesting people I've ever met."

But there's this thing, and he has to be honest about it too, and I think that's really hard to do.

Cate: We talk a lot about having conversations, but there's less around how we have the conversation. The fact that Sean was able to name, like, "Hey, if it's serious, let's keep it serious," I think that's a really powerful lesson to take away in that you are allowed to ask for the types of communication that are going to make the most sense in your brain.

Have you had a lot of those kind of conversations about conversations?

Dani: Yeah, I love talking. I also just love being open about how talking isn't easy for everyone. Something that really helps one of my friends, which I've now used with Sean — sometimes it can be a lot easier to put time limits on having hard conversations.

Allowing him to be like, "I'm not ready for that. Can you give me 15?" Or like, "Hey, can we come back tomorrow?"

But also then being able to say like, "Hey, we're about to have this probably kind of big conversation. Let's talk about it for three minutes. And at the end of three minutes, we can see where we are, we can see how we feel, and if we want to keep on talking about it, let's keep on talking about it."

And I think that's been something that's been super helpful too, is just like, how can I say what I actually mean? What's my thesis statement for this thing that I want to get across?

(07:20) Dani shares the care meter system she and Sean use to prioritize decisions.

Cate: Can you tell us about your systems? What are the things that you've put in place to sort of support this give-and-take in your relationship?

Dani: One of my favorites that we started doing is the care meter. So, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you care about this thing, and how much do I care about this thing?

Because we would find ourselves having these long conversations where I'm like, "On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you care about the paint color of the kitchen?" And he's like, "A three." And I'm like, "Well, I care about it an eight, so why are we talking about this for three hours? Let's just go with my paint color. If we paint it and we absolutely hate it, we can do another scale or whatever."

And it's also like I get to learn things that Sean cares about that I didn't actually really know that matter to him so much, and has really opened up having larger conversations about, like, "Oh, I wasn't expecting you to care a seven on the outfit that you were going to wear to this wedding. I was just going to pick it out for you."

Cate: I had the funniest thing happen with this where — so I was picking out a couch, and I cared about a couch a 47 out of 10. I kept sending couches to my husband, and he was like, "I don't care. I care a four," because we kind run through the same thing, right?

And then, that was how I learned that I had been asking the wrong questions. What I would do is I would go, "What do you think of this couch?" He'd be like, "It's fine."

And then I started being like, "Okay, well, do you want a couch that sits all the way on the floor, or do you want a couch with legs?" And he'd be like, "Oh, I do care about that, because I want to be able to vacuum under the couch, so I think I actually care about couch legs about a seven."

I was like, "Okay. Well, what about a red couch versus a blue couch?" He's like, "I don't care." I was like, "Great. What about a blue couch versus a green couch?" He's like, "I care very much. If it's a green couch, it has to be this very specific color of green."

And so it wound up being this really fascinating thing where it turned out that he cared way more than he even thought that he cared, but the access point of caring versus not caring, as opposed to applying a number to it and then sort of examining where that number, you know, fell within the priority list — we wound up getting a really great couch that we both really liked. It just turned out that nobody had ever asked him those very specific questions before.

And so it wound up being really fun. It was like a fun couple's activity to start looking for couches in that way, as opposed to this onslaught of my hyperfocusing on couches and sending him 50 couches a night, because that was overwhelming to his brain.

Dani: Yeah. We had a very similar conversation about a coffee table, and I cared about the coffee table what I thought was a 10. I was like, "I really want this specific type of coffee table."

And then I asked Sean, and Sean was like, "I don't know, it's a coffee table. I'm a two on it." And I was like, "Okay." And I sent him some, and he was like, "Oh, I hate those."

And I was like, "Well, you can't say you hate it if you're saying you're a two. Hold on." And so you end up having these like, "I care about this like a one. I care about this a two. I care about this a five." And then all of a sudden you realize that you find something that is both of you.

And you get to this really cool moment where you see both of yourselves in the decisions you're making, and that's been definitely a system that I use a lot, and I probably use it to death a little bit, but it works.

Cate: If it works, it works. That's the thing.

(10:54) Dani describes how externalizing clutter as the mess monster reduces blame.

Dani: If it works, it works. Another one that we have that I love because it helps me mostly is the mess monster.

Cate: Okay, tell me about this immediately. I'm curious.

Dani: The mess monster is not our problem. We didn't do it. The mess monster came. Like if someone didn't do the dishes last night or something's out for a really long time, we go like, "The mess monster came in."

And I just love having those moments of like, "Look at the bedroom." And it's me. Like I know that for the most part I'm the mess monster. But it's Peter, you know, or whatever name we decide to choose for that specific mess.

And then you work together. Then you're like, "Okay, well, now we have to stop joking about this. We have to actually go clean it up." But it takes some of that seriousness off and the blame off of it too, because again, it's the idea of like, we're on the same team.

I probably didn't want to do the dishes last night because I was exhausted, not because I was trying to make you angry or not because I wanted you to do the dishes. It's like, I know I have to do the dishes, but you know what, we're going to blame Peter today.

Cate: It's funny, because my husband can sometimes get very hung up on the idea of fairness. And so, it was like one of those things where I work from home, and I use a weird amount of bowls during the day. I don't know what it is. And so, sometimes there's days where I wouldn't get to the dishes, and he would get really frustrated.

He'd be like, "You are making all of these dishes, and then I come home and you're like, 'Can you load the dishwasher?' And it just feels very unfair."

And so there kind of had to be this acknowledgement of, "This is how my brain works." And one of the things that I really struggle with is I will usually do way too much over the course of a day, and then by the end of the day, I'm tired. And I'm not trying to trick you into doing my dishes for me.

And so, one of the things that he did that I thought was so thoughtful was he was like, "Oh, it's not a dishes problem. It's a calendar problem. So, let's sit down and look at how much you're doing, and better structure your days so that you're not completely burned out and fried by the end of the day."

That was like the most brilliant thing that anyone had ever done. I was like, "What do you mean that I could just not be exhausted at the end of the day? That sounds fake. What are you talking about?"

Dani: Yeah. Sean has a very similar thing because he also recharges by being alone. But I have decided to make 35 friends, and then trying to squeeze your entire social life into a Saturday and a Sunday means that he gets no non-working day where there's nothing happening.

And my brain is like, that sounds great. Today, I have a dinner tonight, and then I'm meeting people out for ice cream after that. I just recharge by that.

Cate: Yeah, that sounds — I was like, what do you mean you're doing two friendship things back-to-back? That sounds crazy!

Dani: There was a moment where Sean was like, "I am exhausted. I don't want to go do this thing." And I would get frustrated. I'd be like, "But we already said we're going to go do it."

I am someone who is like, if I said I was going to do it, if I said I was going to be there, there's no changing that. And that's just how my mindset is. But that's not how Sean's mindset is, because he's like, "Well, I don't have to actually. I don't have to go do this thing that I don't actually want to do just because we said yes to it a couple of weeks ago."

My brain exploded. I was like, "No, unfortunately. Unfortunately, that is fake. You have to — you have to show up. You have to."

Something that we've kind of implemented now is I've been like, "Okay, we don't have to fill up our weekends with stuff, but you have to then be a little open to maybe going out to a timed situation on a weekday. Like maybe on a Wednesday, we can go grab dinner with friends and be home at 9:00."

Cate: I feel like we have to get our husbands together on a show and just talk, because it's like we're the same person. I also totally interrupted you. Please continue.

Dani: No, no, no. It's just like, I think that that's been really helpful for us, is putting time restraints on things and setting those expectations early of being like, "We need to be out of this by 9:30." And I'm like, "Okay, I can start wrapping up conversations at 9:00 and blah, blah, blah."

Sean's like, "Why don't we just tell people that we're leaving at 9:30?" And I'm like, "No, there's an art form. There has to be these steps." And he's like, "No, we're just going to tell people that, yeah, we're out of here at 9:30." And I'm like, "That was so much easier. We should just do that now forever."

Something else that I don't know if it's difficult for you or for your partner is when he asks for alone time, he thinks that I'm going to think that that means he doesn't want to hang out with me. And so we had a whole conversation about that.

I was like, "You don't want to hang out with me, and it's not because you don't love me. It's just because you want to go downstairs and sit and stare at a wall for a little bit and not talk to anyone."

Being able to have those conversations of like, "Well, what do you need to recharge, so that way your brain isn't like absolute sludge? Because I want to be able to interact with you when you're feeling good, too, and I don't want you to be in this muted stage just so that you can watch a show with me."

Cate: It's funny, because I was that person in our relationship. My craft room is upstairs, and so it's away from the living room and away from the TV. And so we had to have a very similar conversation just in terms of like, "Hey, I really want to hang out with you, but I also really want to go do this." And he'd always be like, "I don't care. Go do what you want to do. Yeah, it's totally fine."

And you know, there's even been a couple of times where I was just like, "Will you just come hang out with me upstairs? Move the TV, and we can just hang out." And so it turns out you can just kind of ask for what you want and you can just kind of get it, which was weirdly like — you know, we've been married for almost 10 years, and there's still this part of me that's like always going to be mad.

And I'm like, there's no evidence or proof that I have that he would ever actually be mad or upset about any of these completely reasonable things. It is fascinating how different the version of my husband is that my rejection sensitivity thinks I have than my intellectual brain knows that I have. It's wild.

Dani: There have been sometimes where Sean, I'll be like, "What was the script that you wrote for me? What did you think I was going to say?" And just so I can understand where his brain is.

He's like, "I know it's irrational." And I was like, "Well, I'm glad you know it's irrational, but that's not what anxiety is. That's not what OCD is. It's going to happen in your brain. That's what you think is happening."

And so when you're having these conversations with yourself or you're running through the script, what was going to be the thing that I said that you were prepared to say something back? You know?

Cate: That's so — I just wrote that down. That's so good. That's so good.

Dani: And we've done it before, and I'm like, "Whoa, like, I'm crazy." That's wild. But it's so interesting to see where people's brains go when it comes to that.

You're never writing the script of like, "Oh, this is going to go exactly the way that everything is supposed to go. I'm going to go up to my knitting room, everything is going to be fine, nothing's going to be wrong."

But it's those other scripts that are the ones that we spend the most time on. It's fun. The next time that you find yourself doing that, it's always really interesting to be like, "Well, what was the next line going to be?"

Cate: And he's like, "I want a divorce." What? Like, "Oh, no, I'm so mad at you."

Dani: It's me with the sewing, doing the thing that you enjoy doing.

Cate: Yeah.

(17:53) Addressing comorbidities and how OCD tendencies intersect with ADHD.

One of the things that I find deeply frustrating about ADHD, but is also just sort of factually true about ADHD, is that it comes with a lot of different comorbidities. It's interesting that you've been talking about Sean and OCD, because it turns out that I also have a lot of OCD tendencies that I didn't know about or recognize for a really long time. I'm only now kind of starting to understand how that fits into the picture.

Dani: I think what ends up happening a lot of the times is we end up focusing on the main diagnosis, and it kind of almost negates the other things that might be happening in your brain, or almost makes them feel less important.

I think for Sean, I can definitely tell when it's more of an OCD thing than an ADHD thing. There's certain things that he has to tap on, and certain things that need to happen. And I think it's like the order of things that need to happen.

And so, for a while, I would try and challenge that of like, "Well, maybe instead of let's make a list of five things and let's start with number four." It didn't work. It was just very destabilizing to him. It was very like, "What the is happening?"

And I realized that just because I can do something like that doesn't mean that he needs to. And I think that's a really, really big one, too, of like, just because I can doesn't mean he — not even should — like he needs to. You're allowed to do whatever you want, and frame things however you want to frame them.

Cate: You named something that can sometimes happen when we are trying to support our partners, regardless of neurotype even or diagnosis, is that sometimes we can try our best to help them and to support them, but we can inadvertently do harm or support them in a way that isn't necessarily effective.

But I love that you didn't take it personally. It didn't become like a, "Oh, you know, I'm a terrible person or a bad partner." It's just like, that kind of thing happens. How did you kind of move on from that without it becoming like a whole capital-T Thing?

Dani: Not taking it personally is hard to do at first.

Cate: Yeah, it really is.

Dani: But then once you let it go — and I'm not saying I'm perfect, like I take things personally still. But once you're like, "Wait, it's not about me," you know, I think that's the other thing, is like if someone doesn't like something that you do, it can feel like it's about you. But it's almost never about you.

Like if something didn't work for them, it doesn't mean that you did something wrong or that your process doesn't work. It just doesn't work for them.

And I think taking that monstrous feeling of "I have to make the right choices, I have to do this, I have to do that" puts things into better perspective. And then you realize it's just a list. It's just a list.

(20:43) Quick-fire communication hacks and resources available on Understood.org.

Cate: Do you have any sort of like rapid-fire — with that marketing background — top five cool tips, tricks, systems, communication hacks?

Dani: Oh, God. Okay, yeah. I think the care meter really, really works. The "what I said" versus "what you heard," I think, is really pivotal for figuring out what your communication style is and what your partner's communication style is, or what they think your communication style is, because it can always be different.

And then I really do love the script thing, just like asking or kind of writing down, like, what is this person actually going to say to me? Because for me, when I write it down, it contextualizes it a little bit, and you're like, there's no way that person was ever going to say that to me.

And I think one last one that I like to do — and this is more of a personal thing, and I've talked with Sean about doing it, too — is writing a thesis statement of what you're upset about. Being able to kind of take the long-winded monologue or the long-winded conversation out of it, and before you kind of bring the topic up — I mean, not every time are you going to have the moments to kind of think about it.

But to write that thesis statement of what is this conversation actually going to be about. Because it's probably not the dishes. It's probably not the laundry. It's probably not the crumbs on the floor. It's, you know, maybe a calendar system. It might be that idea that like, "I'm exhausted. I can't even look at the floor right now. I wasn't even looking there."

And so I think that those are the really main things that I like to kind of put into place.

Cate: As a marketing person for Understood.org, do you want to just share with our dear listeners some of the resources and places that they can find more stuff that they may not know about, and stuff that you're excited about getting going?

Dani: I can definitely think of one off the bat that I think has a lot to do with the conversations that we've been having. We have an AI assistant on our site called the Understood Assistant. And what I really love about this is that you can actually have it role-play conversations for you and with you.

And so you can say like, "I want to have this tough conversation with my partner about not doing the laundry. Can you role-play that conversation with me?" And it will do it for you. And you can interrupt it, and it is so responsive in that way.

So, I think that — I know that AI is its own whole scary thing, but our assistant only pulls from resources that are on our site, so everything is expert-vetted.

The other thing that I want to promote is we have a ton of really, really awesome newsletters that you can subscribe to on our site, where you can get crazy helpful tips, whether or not you're a parent, an educator, or you're a woman navigating ADHD or other learning disabilities.

We put stuff out weekly, and we always make sure that they're topical, and they have kind of like our best podcasts and our best resources on there. And they're just, you know, a really great way to get quick information without being overloaded with information, which I feel is a thing that happens these days.

Cate: Is there also a Facebook group? Is that a thing that exists?

Dani: There is. Yes, we have a families Facebook group and we have a women's Facebook group. So, those are also fantastic places to get real-life stories like in the moment. And sometimes we'll even have our experts go into our Facebook groups and answer questions in there, too.

But yeah, those are a really great place to find community and to kind of have a real conversation with people who get it and who are going through it.

Cate: Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

"Sorry I Missed This" is produced by Jessamine Molli and edited by Jessie De Martino. Video is produced by Calvin Knie. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright. Production support provided by Amber Rucker. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director.

From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you again soon.

Dani: Sorry, my dog has taken this opportunity to bark a whole bunch, so give me a second here.

Cate: I have such a smart, cool question, too. Oh, it was such a good follow-up.

Dani: "Get a dog," they said. "It'll be great," they said.