Hyperfocus: “So, when are you having kids?” ADHD and deciding on parenthood

One of the most inevitable questions that comes with early adulthood is also one of the most fraught: “When are you having kids?” 

The question is loaded with assumptions and pressure. It also seems to ignore the fact that having kids is supposed to be a choice, not a requirement. 

For neurodivergent people, especially those with ADHD, deciding whether to become a parent can be even more complex. 

On this episode of “Hyperfocus with Rae Jacobson,” we talk with author and editorial director Jordan Davidson. She’s interviewed hundreds of people about their decision on whether to become a parent. 

• Jordan’s book: “So When Are You Having Kids?”

• Podcast series: Climbing the Walls 

(03:06) What inspired Jordan’s book

(08:35) Jordan’s findings from hundreds of interviews

(12:28) How to break schemas attached to parenthood

(24:28) The fantasy of the “idealized parent” 

We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at hyperfocus@understood.org.

Rae Jacobson: So, just to get started, will you tell me a little bit about the book and what made you want to write it?

Jordan Davidson: So, the idea for the book, it was a conversation that I had been having largely in my head, but also with some like family and friends, thinking of, you know, like how do you decide? How do you decide if you want to have kids? What decisions go into that? And a lot of people kind of just go based on gut.

And as much as I am a person who likes to go based on my gut, that felt like a very large decision to just say like, "I don't know. How do I, like what do I want for breakfast this morning? And am I going to have children?" And so in talking to family and friends, a lot of people kind of parroted the same thing of like, you'll just know, or you won't like, or you don't. And I was not satisfied with that answer. And knowing me, you probably have witnessed what happens when I'm not satisfied with a simple answer as I dig deeper.

Rae: "So, when are you having kids?" It's a question many of us have heard, and it's not easy to answer. But I'm lucky enough to work with Jordan Davidson. And Jordan is, and I mean this in the best and most journalistic of ways, relentless. She's the kind of person for whom a simple answer is essentially an invitation. She's made a career of digging into complex medical and mental health topics and turning them into accessible content. Before joining me at Understood, she was the editorial director at Health, a major health and wellness publication. You've probably seen their articles online.

At the time, she was wrestling with her own questions about having a child. When are you having kids? It's not an easy question, and there's no straightforward path to take. It's too complicated and individual and huge. So Jordan, being Jordan, took this question that was so personal to her and decided to ask literally hundreds of people how they've made the choice to have or not have a child.

She interviewed people from diverse identities and backgrounds, parents, non-parents, prospective parents, clinicians, and she put it all into a book. It's called "So, When Are You Having Kids?: The Definitive Guide for Those Who Aren't Sure If, When, or How They Want to Become Parents." And I wanted to have her on because it's a question I've wrestled with too. Not just before having my daughter, but again when my husband and I started talking about having a second child.

Because when you have ADHD or another mental health disorder, the question of, "Should I have a kid?" can become a lot more complicated. With all the reporting and writing Jordan's done about this question, she's kind of an expert on the subject. So I wanted to have her on to ask about the different considerations when it comes to parenthood and mental health and learn about all the different frameworks people use when making the biggest decisions in life. This week on "Hyperfocus," Jordan Davidson.

Rae: So, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on today is because this book is amazing, and because you occupy what I feel like is maybe a unique place in that you work here at Understood with me, and you know a lot about ADHD. You've asked me multiple times if I think you have it. I do not think that you have it, um, because you are incredibly organized and good at doing things like sitting down during the pandemic and writing a book.

But you also have a really deep knowledge of everything in this sphere around choices to have or not have a child. So I wanted to have you on to just kind of dig into this, I think kind of untalked about thing, which is how ADHD can influence the decision to have a child and how it can influence some of the things that you do in that process.

Jordan: Yeah, totally. There's a lot of different ways that ADHD can influence the decision to have children. And that is in part due to the fact that in general, there's a lot of different things that can influence your decision of whether or not to have children. The challenge is that so much of it is unconscious. We are given so many messages throughout our lives from the ways that our parents raise us or, you know, caregivers or grandparents, from the media, all of these different portrayals of parenthood influence how we think about parenthood.

And so the big one that stands out for me when it comes to ADHD is this idea of the idealized parent of thinking that being a parent means that I must be organized and put together, and I have to pack lunches and do all of these things properly. And so that kind of sets a lot of people up for failure, and not just people with ADHD.

In the '80s and '90s, there became this focus on what's called intensive parenting. Oh yes. And it's this idea that you have to, you know, give your children this like really rich and developed childhood. And before the '80s and '90s, that didn't really happen as much. And I think if you have older parents or, you know, your grandparents, they'll say, "You know, when I was a kid, you just you sent the kids outside." They didn't have all these extracurriculars and things that kids have nowadays.

And so there's a lot of pressure for parents to conform to that. And for people who are neurotypical, there's a lot of pressure. That pressure, whether or not you subscribe to this idea of intensive parenting, it affects everyone because everyone can picture that like perfect mom who is, you know, supplying things for the bake sale and going to work, which is a reality for many parents now. Most families have two working parents.

And so this mom who is juggling everything. And this is stressful for neurotypical people. And so for people with ADHD who are already struggling with executive functioning tasks, parenting is like the executive function Olympics. And so that in and of itself is challenging. So if you have a task that is challenging for neurotypical individuals, for people with ADHD, I imagine that's like standing at the bottom of a mountain and looking up and thinking like, "How am I going to do that and do it well?"

People don't go into parenting like, "I'm going to have kids, and who cares if I'm a good parent? I'm just going to do it." But before the '80s and '90s, people really weren't thinking the same way.

Rae: So it sounds like one of the things that is primary among parents now, and I experienced this, I have a 7-year-old, is there's so much pressure to be a certain type of parent, and that type of parent is something that is sort of challenging no matter who you are. Yes. But anathema often for people who have ADHD because it involves so much executive function.

Jordan: Yes. And if if we have this idealized version of what it means to be a parent and we are saying that the majority of society can't fulfill this portrayal, for people who already feel like they are inadequately like rising to the challenges of modern society and all of the tasks that are required to accomplish in a day, how are they supposed to be this idealized version of a parent?

Rae: Yeah. Well, it's funny because you mentioned that you started writing this book during the pandemic. And of course, I have to make the bread joke because that's what you say when people talk about the pandemic. But what I was really doing during that time was working from home with a just-turned 2-year-old and just barely holding on.

Rae: Barely holding on was, it's probably safe to say, most people's base state during the pandemic. And with ADHD and a full-time job and a small child, holding on for me turned eventually to letting go. Letting go of neatness, letting go of pants with buttons, screen time limits, letting go of standards and plans, and letting go of the long-held dream of a second child.

We know that a lot of women were diagnosed with ADHD during or after the pandemic. That was the thing that pushed them over the edge into getting diagnosed. And a lot of it was around just the challenges of holding all those balls in the air, like parenting. And granted, during the pandemic, you weren't shuttling people from activity to activity, but there were still a lot of pressures like, "How do you make sure that your child is in school and they're getting this and they're getting this?" You know, there's all of these things that affect the amount of work that you're putting into being a parent.

And for me anyway, that was a moment where, you know, I had a daughter of a certain age and it was the time to decide whether or not to have another child. And for a number of factors, one, I had postpartum depression, which we now know you're five times more likely to have if you have ADHD, which I didn't know at the time. And the amount of work that I was trying to juggle and the amount of stuff that was just like barreling down, like the perfect angle of executive function misery, a lot of it resulted in me deciding not to have a second kid, which was not an easy choice. You know, kids are not Pringles. You just like, you don't just like keep going, you know?

People with ADHD, the disorder, whether you're thinking of it as the primary driver or not, can be a big factor in choosing to have a child at all or to have a second child or a third. And you interviewed like, how many people for your book? Like over 100, right?

Jordan: Hundreds.

Rae: Hundreds. And in those hundreds of people, can you tell me a little bit about some of the things that you saw that influenced the decision to have a child, to not have a child, and why people were making those choices?

Jordan: It's funny because when I would start these interviews, I'd ask people and then they'd say, "Well, you know, I just wanted to." And I'd say, "Can you tell me a little bit about that? Why did you want to?" And then, you know, we would get into a conversation that would last an hour because it wasn't as simple as I just wanted to. And sometimes it would be people who, you know, had a partner that wanted a child, and maybe they were on the fence and they, you know, being with that person made them realize that it was something that they wanted, or they wanted to be able to, you know, share that experience with a partner.

But for people who were on the fence or who hadn't made a decision, it was usually because they had some sort of like conflict that they wanted to resolve of, "You know, I don't feel like I'm ready because I live in an apartment and it's a one-bedroom apartment, and you know, how am I expanding?" And "Where, um, you know, my finances aren't in order," or, "Um, you know, I want to get promoted in my job." Like everyone had these things that they wanted to do because they wanted to be a good parent, which is why I go back to this: how important it is to think about this concept of like the idealized parent because it it does make people feel like they have to accomplish certain things before they can have children.

Jordan: You said this thing to me that I hadn't really thought of, but have not stopped thinking about since you told me it, which is that this idea that people associate people who are child-free with a sort of a like, they're less than adults in some way. Yes. And that can be really, you know, unpleasant and also, I don't think people always ask great questions about why people are child-free if they are, or why people had kids if they did. Yes.

But you did. And you said this thing that I am stuck on, which is that people with ADHD are often sort of charged with the same type of immaturity or thoughtlessness or unwillingness to take on responsibility. You know, that especially when the disorder is misunderstood, people treat us like we're, yeah, less than adults. And the child-free people often had a similar experience.

Yeah. So a lot of being, deciding to be child-free comes with this like adoption of this stigmatized identity because we live in a pronatalist society, meaning that what is the accepted norm is that people have children. And it's kind of complicated. One of the things that I talk about...

Rae: What Jordan means by pronatalist is that we live in a society where having children is not only the norm, it's encouraged. The pressure to start a family is ubiquitous, and deciding not to have a family is stigmatized. And as she wrote the book, she found that though we're given a ton of pronatalist messaging, on the policy and planning side of things, the picture is very different. For one thing, having a child is really expensive, even more so if there are complications. Insurance often doesn't cover IVF. And during pregnancy and birth, any complication can equal terrifyingly high hospital bills. And once you've given birth, the lack of paid leave or subsidized childcare can mean things get even more challenging. 

Jordan: One of the things that I talk about in my book is that there's actually this researcher who questions whether or not we live in a pronatalist society because, you know, in the U.S. we don't have paid maternity leave. And so we have a lot of what are known as anti-natalist policies. So policies that don't help people build families with this expectation of building a family.

But because we have this expectation that the normal route is to have children, people who choose not to have children are seen as kind of being abnormal, being away from. And before, especially like before the '70s, research into like child-free individuals really kind of painted them as deviants. That fortunately isn't as pervasive of a view now, but it's changed. So we're not like saying, "Oh, someone doesn't have a child. They must be some sort of deviant."

But we say things like, "You know, they must be immature," or, "You know, they're selfish," or "They're materialistic, and they're cold because who wouldn't want a child?" You know, I think there's this idealization of like a child, like it's a puppy and thinking like, "Oh, kids are so cute. Why wouldn't you want that? There must be something wrong with you if you don't want a cute little baby."

Rae: You know, it's funny, the thing that that made me think of is when I was younger, I used to do talks about having ADHD before I had a kid. I was probably in my 20s. And at one, a guy stood up and asked me if with my condition, I thought I could have a child. And I was so taken aback by his question and so irritated by his question that I was like, "Well, my dog ate a box of tampons once, and I did kill a cactus, but I got another cactus and my dog is still alive. So I think I might one day have kids."

And he was horrified because that was my intention. But it was the first encounter I'd had with somebody who was like, "Do you think you're actually going to be able to do this?" And it wasn't something that I had really considered because until I was sure I wanted to have a child, I really wasn't sure I wanted to have a child. So I was kind of like, "I don't know." Yeah. Did you find that indecision in people?

Jordan: I mean, a lot of people are indecisive. I think most people probably fall within some spectrum of indecisiveness. I think it's a lot less common to know definitively that you do or you don't. And I think people reach points where it feels right. And that's really so much of what I actually wanted to write the book was because of this like pervasiveness of the the gut feeling, which I think is based on this idea of what parenthood should be because we have what's called schemas built of what we think parents are and what we should accomplish in our lives.

But it's this idea that our brains have formulated these schemas that tell us like, "This is what I need to do to be an adult. This is what being a parent looks like." An example I like to use is like if I said to you, "Hey, I'm having a birthday party." I don't have to tell you what that party will entail. Like you would come to the party and you would think like there would probably be cake and candles and maybe some like off-pitch singing. And that's how we think about parenthood. People just march into it because they know the script.

Rae: These schemas, the ideas we hold about who or how we need to be can be really hard to shake, especially because they're often unconscious. They're the powerful, invisible ideas of success or adulthood that more often than not don't match with the reality of our lives.

If you start to think about what that script means for you or why you're just accepting of this idea that like I have to do this step and this step and this step in order to like complete the game of life, then I think within there for most people is probably the decision that you are are looking for if you just take the moment to kind of break down the thoughts that you have about it consciously and unconsciously what you have absorbed throughout your life.

And that game of life looks pretty different probably if you have any spectrum of neurodiversity. You know, and we know ADHD and other related learning issues and also mental health issues can be hereditary. So, you know, I would imagine that what you see in your parents might be something that weighs heavily on your decision to have a child or what you think a nuclear family would be. A schema is basically like a map in your mind of what things should be, right? Yes. This is how the nuclear family does look.

In your research, though, you spoke to a lot of people from diverse backgrounds. Can you tell me a little bit about how that affected the outcomes or if it affected them at all?

Jordan: It did, and I think that so much of it is personal. And the thing that really came to mind here is some conversations that I had with people who had a history of childhood trauma. And it was interesting because some people because of their history of childhood trauma, some people would say, "I don't want to do it. I didn't have good, I didn't grow up with strong examples of parents, and I'm afraid that I would default to things that I saw and observed in my childhood."

And other people in that same sort of scenario were like, "That is the exact reason why I want to do it. I want to in some ways heal that fractured parent-child relationship from the other side. And I know it's going to be a challenge, and I know that I'm going to have to lean on support systems and go to therapy and break the cycle." And so there are a lot of different things that can influence the decision.

But that's also to say that you are making a decision, which I know is something that you and I have talked about in preparation for this, is that not everyone gets to decide. And the rate of unintended pregnancies in the U.S. in general is pretty high. Yeah. The last time they looked at the data was 2019, so who knows if the pandemic has changed that? And it's also really hard to study whether or not people wanted to be pregnant or planned to have children. But that rate is about 40%. And it's higher if you have ADHD.

Rae: I think about all the time when people talk about ADHD, we often just talk about the deficit, the bad stuff. And I wonder if there's anything in your book that bore out for people who just felt joy around their choices or who felt very confirmed in the things that they decided, whether it was to have kids or not have kids. And if you could just tell me some of the sort of stuff that came out of it that you were like, "Oh, okay."

Jordan: So this is not going to be satisfying in any way, but it's actually really difficult to study like satisfaction as well of your choice for a lot of different reasons. One of which is there are so many factors that go into it. And I make a point of saying this of like, if I wanted to, I could make the argument that having kids makes you happier. I could have the argument that being child-free makes you happier because there are studies that find both. It depends on what groups you look for and like what factors you control for.

But really, it all comes down to – it sounds so simple to say this – but how you think about it. Like if you if you think about having children and you are excited by that idea, you're probably not going to regret it. So it's all about expectations. So if you think that parenthood is going to be this super enriching, not at all challenging experience, and you have this unrealistic expectation of parenthood, you're probably going to be disappointed.

But if you have a realistic expectation, you might be surprised by the different ways that you find joy or, you know, the experiences and the ups and the downs that come with parenthood. And so I think to go back to everything that we spoke about, there is so much internalization of this like fear of failure.

And if you can come at it thinking that you might not be a perfect parent, but you don't need to be a perfect parent. And that's something that you're actively going to have to work against because you've been conditioned to think that all parents have to be perfect. And if you can cut yourself some slack and realize the things that you are good at that no one else is good at, that you can bring to a child's life and and enrich them with, then it is worth it. And it will be good because you are not going to turn to a guru and be like, "Manifest it."

You don't have to be perfect. And so if you have ADHD and your only reason for thinking maybe you shouldn't have kids is because you think you're going to be bad at it, you're it's kind of like almost setting yourself up for some self-fulfilling prophecy.

Rae: Because it's true, the way we talk to ourselves and think about parenting has a huge impact on what we decide to do. Like Jordan said, those schemas have a big hold and shedding them isn't easy. But doing that is the only way we can move forward with the kind of parents we actually want to be. Because ADHD or not, none of us will ever be the 2025 version of June Cleaver. And honestly, that's a good thing.

Breaking up with this kind of perfection is one way you can prepare yourself to have a child if you do decide you want to. Allowing yourself to be the person you are with ADHD and get the support that you need can make a big difference. It's a way of preparing yourself if you wind up deciding you do want to have a kid. And if you have ADHD, there is actually a lot you can do to prepare before parenthood.

Scheduling all those doctor's appointments, getting the supplies you need, taking care of yourself, it's a huge task for your executive functioning. And it's something that with a little bit of forethought and planning can be made lighter. Understanding your ADHD can make the load significantly lighter because you know what you need to do to get help. Lightening the executive functioning tasks, finding tools that help you, getting prepared in a number of ways, including and not limited to your mental health.

But for people who are co-parenting, the X-factor can be your partner. So Jordan had some ideas about how to work with your partner to plan ahead for some of the invisible labor and stress that can come with child-rearing. One of the things that I feel like is very important in this realm is division of labor and invisible labor after a child is born, and even during pregnancy, remembering all the appointments and maybe getting help with some of that scheduling. Can you talk to me a little bit about why that is so challenging?

Jordan: First, it depends on the type of relationship that you are in. The division of labor tends to be more equitable in same-sex partners. And so I think really what you are talking about here is the inequitable division of labor typically seen in heterosexual couples, which is where the female partner does the lion's share of the work.

Rae: Is, do we see that in research, right? That's not just something that we're saying.

Jordan: No, it's in the research as well. Yes. That's not to say that in all same-sex relationships, it's always equitable and fair, but there tends to be more satisfaction with the division of labor among same-sex couples compared to heterosexual couples. So, having said that, to focus on heterosexual couples, part of it is where women do the lion's share of work because sometimes they have to, right?

Only, if it's the woman who's pregnant, that is a one-body job. It's not like you can take turns and pass it back and forth, you know, throughout the nine months. And so, you know, there is some work where one partner has to do more of the work than the other partner. But what happens often is that the default is that these are women responsibilities because again, stemming from 1950s, 1960s where mom stayed at home and did all of these things.

The challenge is now, mom doesn't stay at home. Yeah, you work and you're the primary caregiver. And you do all of these things. Yes. So now mom has to wear all of the hats while juggling and, you know, raising the children. And that's not to say that like, studies have shown that men are participating more in household tasks than they were in the '50s and '60s, but not to the level. It seems like a low bar though. Not to the level of mom.

And even research has shown that when dads are the primary stay-at-home parent, they are still not doing as much of the unpaid labor as mom.

Rae: Let's break down what that labor is because I think that's important to the ADHD-ness of it all. Yes. Which is like we're talking about scheduling, planning, remembering everybody's birthday, managing everybody's emotions. All of these things. Meals. All of these consistent micro-decisions that you're making throughout the day that require executive function, working memory the ability to manage emotions and not only your own.

Jordan: Yes. Getting everyone out of the house and on time, waking up, you know, being. It's that you're the planner, the alarm clock, the shopping list, all of these different things. And so, really, the key is is to have an open discussion with your partner. And it will be different for partners in relationships where both sides have ADHD versus where one partner has ADHD and the other might not.

But what it comes down to is figuring out what works for you. And it's better if you figure it out before you need to. So, you know, learning about, taking a parenting course, learning about what parenting looks like in the first six months so that you're not like, "Okay, who's waking up to do the nighttime feeds that night?" Like the first night you bring the baby home. So having all of those discussions early on and then kind of breaking out of this idea that fair means 50-50.

I think a lot of people think about like, "Well, what's fair? I'll do half and you do half." And for some people, sure, that's fair. But actually, what research tells us is that fair is whatever you agree on is fair. And so if one partner does 70% of tasks and the other partner does 30, if both people agree that that's fair because let's say, you know, one person's parental leave is longer, and so they're going to take on maybe more of the in-house tasks while the other partner is working. And so it's going to be 60-30, 60-40.

Rae: Or one person has better organizational abilities and the other one is better able to deal with emotions or whatever it is. Breaking it down by ability and probably by availability.

Jordan: Yes. And so fair is what you agree on. And I remember an example that I heard, when I was interviewing people of, you know, a parent who wasn't good at the executive functioning type tasks but loved playing with the kids. And that's actually something that not a lot of parents enjoy is all of the play time.

Rae: Familiar with this problem.

Jordan: Activities.

Rae: You're like, "How long is this game?" This game seems like it's forever.

Jordan: I think a lot of people, before they have children, they're like, "Playtime, it seems so fun." Like you just get to play. But then when it's every day has a playtime component.

Rae: And the rules never stay the same. Let me just tell you in child games, it's always like, "Wait, I thought I was a tiger." And she's like, "No, you're not."

Jordan: Exactly. And so if there's one parent who enjoys more of those like unstructured, imaginative playtime, that could be another parent's hell. And so saying like, "Hey, I'm going to do more of the playtime and the fun and the, you know, keeping our child from being bored. And while I'm, you know, sitting at the imaginary tea party, you're going to go food shopping." Yeah. That could feel fair if the one partner loves food shopping. But if your partner is the one who wants to be at the tea parties and you've relegated them to just doing all the scheduling while you get to be the fun parent, that's not fair.

Rae: So a lot of it is about, I mean, I would imagine – and I know this is borne out in the research that you saw – communication. Yes. If you're knowledgeable about, I mean it's an argument for being knowledgeable about yourself too. If you know what you need, it's easier for you to communicate it. So if you have ADHD and you are thinking about having a kid, thinking about how will these two things interact and what will I need from my partner if I am partnered, and what might I need from my family or my friends or the people who are my support system, that can help you manage all sorts of potential challenges and maybe make the decision, if not easier, at least something that you can see the future a little bit more clearly.

Jordan: Yes. And of course, that's so much easier said than done because ADHD comes with a lot of shame. And so it can feel hard to approach or say the things that you're bad at or ask for help, especially if you know that it annoys everyone that you are constantly late or that you forget things. But you will need help if you become a parent. Yes. No one can do it on their own. Although people do. But it takes resources to do it. And eventually, you know, there are ways like after-school programs and pre-K and things that people can use to support themselves. But if you don't have to do it on your own, preparation can make it easier. Yeah.

Rae: "Hyperfocus" is made by me, Rae Jacobson, and Cody Nelson. The book is "So, When Are You Having Kids?" by Jordan Davidson. It's available in any store, on Amazon, on Bookshop, which I highly recommend. And I think you'll be very pleased you read it.

Our music comes from Blue Dot Sessions. Our research correspondent is Dr. KJ Wynne. Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Alyssa Shea.

Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. Production support provided by Andrew Rector.

If you have any questions for us or ideas for future episodes, write me an email or send a voice memo to hyperfocus@understood.org. 

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson.

Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.