The ADHD shame spiral from making mistakes in relationships

A lot of shame can come up when a person with ADHD is confronted about a mistake they’ve made. They might start to spiral into bad feelings, and negative self-talk, when really the person bringing up the mistake most likely wants to repair their relationship, and even strengthen their bond.

Host Cate Osborn chats to ADHD coach Jaye Lin about why this happens, and what we can do to “reverse the train” to stop the spiral. Jaye is the host of another show on the MissUnderstood podcast channel, Tips from an ADHD Coach. 

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

• The MissUnderstood podcast channel (where you can find Jaye’s podcast, Tips from an ADHD Coach)

• ADHD and: Shame

• ADHD and emotions

(00:41) Being scared of making mistakes or showing ADHD traits

(04:38) “Reversing the train” instead of spiraling when someone brings up a mistake we’ve made

(08:23) Slipping into the shame spiral easily

(11:28) Directly addressing the damage caused by your actions, intentional or not

(15:51) The element of repair

(16:30) Perfectionism and internalized judgement

(20:28) Rejection sensitivity and how we react to things

(23:19) The “scary moment” when someone brings up your mistake

(25:55) Jaye’s last piece of advice

Cate: Hi everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This," the show where we talk about ADHD and its impact on relationships, communication, intimacy, and yes, even sex. It's me, your host Cate Osborn. Today on the show, I'm super excited because it's officially a crossover episode. That was the cool sound effects that you get for this.

So, today we have Jaye Lin, who is the host of "Tips from an ADHD Coach" right here on the "MissUnderstood" podcast channel, and we are going to be talking about making mistakes.

I used to be a person who was really afraid of making mistakes. I would bend over backwards. I would move heaven and earth to make sure that everyone around me thought that I had my life under control, and I was stressed, and I was exhausted, and I was really, really unhappy and spoilers, I still wasn't perfect. And so, I found the harder that I worked to uphold this idea that I never make mistakes and I have all of my life together, the more I was making mistakes and the more I was having to cover them up or profusely apologize or feel really guilty and bad.

And that compounded and compounded and compounded until this point where I was just like, "Well, I guess I'm a terrible person and a terrible friend and a terrible partner, and I shouldn't even try." And so, today, that's what we're going to be talking about with Jaye. What happens when we make a mistake? How do we break out of that cycle of "Of course I screwed up again. Of course I make mistakes. Of course I'm such a dum dummy dum dum." Now, Jaye has in this episode, she's going to talk about her amazing metaphor that I love so much. She calls it reversing the train.

So, we're going to be talking about reversing the train on making mistakes and how mistakes can actually help us grow. How mistakes can actually be a powerful way of taking ownership of our actions, of building stronger and healthier relationships, and how mistakes ultimately can help us discover not only the things that we're good at, but what we're bad at and how to get better at them. So, dear listener, today on the show, I invite you to sit back and make some mistakes with me.

Hi, Jaye.

Jaye: Hi.

Cate: Does this count as like, a crossover episode? I feel like this is technically a crossover episode. This is when, like, Thor and Superman meet for the first time or something.

Jaye: I feel like it should be called "Sorry, I missed this tip from an ADHD coach" or something.

Cate: I think we're going to say "text from an ADHD coach," which did happen this morning. I did miss a text from you.

Jaye: Yeah, and I miss texts all the time. And I sent a lot of texts. And so, people are like, "Oh, I'm so sorry I didn't respond." I was like, "No, that's the whole point of texts. You don't need to respond right away."

Cate: Asynchronous communication.

Jaye: Yeah, it's a text message, not a walkie-talkie.

Cate: Oh, I like that. I might use that. I had a job where I had to have a walkie-talkie on me at all times, and it was not great.

Jaye: How could you concentrate on anything?

Cate: I couldn't. But also I was dressed like a pirate pretty much the entire time I had that walkie-talkie. So, like, it was a weird job anyway. I will be explaining nothing further. Sorry. So, Jaye, we're talking about a complex topic, and it's the intersection of making a mistake, but not letting perfectionism get in the way of owning our mistakes.

Jaye: I would say this is more of addressing the anxiety that we feel about never being able to make a mistake and what that does to us, and then providing an alternative to that which actually makes everything better instead of worse.

Cate: Yeah.

Jaye: The way that anxiety does.

Cate: Do you see this a lot in your work as an ADHD coach? Like is this a really common experience?

Jaye: Yeah, and I would say it's a really common experience, not only in clients but with myself, with other ADHD professionals. It's kind of just like across the board, I see this tension that everyone has about never making a mistake, never making an ADHD mistake. You know, "I never want to interrupt anyone. I never want to be dysregulated, to run someone over with my emotions, to blow up at someone."

And this fear of never being able to display any of our ADHD symptoms usually causes more of those things to pop out. You know, the anxiety that we feel can sometimes make us more on edge. It can exhaust us. It can put us in a space where we can be our worst selves.

And the way I see this happen the most is with emotional dysregulation. And so, when we are just like, "Oh, I keep interrupting people, I'm such a piece of shit. I need to stop interrupting people. I'm just never going to say anything, but this whole time I'm just eager to say something, and I'm just clenching and clenching and clenching" when it does happen — because it's going to happen, we still have ADHD — everything is just like full of shame and we can interpret it in really terrible ways.

And then when other people bring up those qualities like, "Hey, you interrupted me," because of the shame, we can turn that into something that is really detrimental to our relationships. We can say like, "No, no, I didn't," or "What's the big deal?" And a lot of that is, it's a reaction that we have to protect ourselves from the pain we feel about feeling like a piece of shit. And so, what I try to cultivate is another option.

And usually, when I talk about people not wanting to display any ADHD symptoms, I use the kind of like analogy of applying the brakes. So, we are in a train that's barreling toward a gap in the tracks, and we're like, "We have to stop this train," and so we're applying the brakes, and that's great because it's good for us to say, like, "I don't want to interrupt people anymore. I don't want to blow up at people. I don't want to procrastinate all these things."

But then for a lot of us, we just apply the brakes really intensely. And when you apply the brakes really intensely, sometimes that causes the train to go off the tracks, or we're still barreling toward this gap in the track and everything we do just gets it closer. And if we're only applying brakes, we'll just get closer and closer and closer until it's inevitable that we hit this gap. So, what I say is there is another option. It's not just applying the brakes. We can reverse the train. And the way that I explain this is that it is OK to make a mistake, as long as we are careful about what we do after that mistake happens.

Cate: Making mistakes, Jaye — I don't know if you know this because you probably never made a mistake — but making mistakes feels bad. I know that I get really uncomfortable, but I find that there's two different parts that happen. There's the actual mistake that happens, right? Like, "Oh, I interrupted you," or "Oh, I was emotionally dysregulated and I reacted out of anger." But then there's the second part, which is the story that we tell ourselves about that thing. So, how do we learn to separate those things? How do we look at that and go, "OK, that happened, but now I just need to reverse the train."

Jaye: What normally happens with what you're talking about is we make a decision about whether it's right for us to feel like a piece of shit, or whether or not we are in the right. So, we don't want to feel like a piece of shit. And so, every time there's a "Well, that wasn't my intention, so they shouldn't have made me feel like a piece of shit," or, you know, "They brought this up. They want me to feel bad." I mean, there are some people who do want us to feel bad, but the majority of the time when we get feedback, that kind of hurts us and someone says like, "Hey, you did this thing. You really hurt my feelings," it's not that they want us to feel bad. They want us to change the behavior so we can be better-loved ones to them, or acquaintances even.

So, the feeling like a piece of shit thing is not helpful. It only serves to create this barrier of are we able to take accountability for how our actions affected another person?

Cate: I want to talk through the process of this shame spiral and what this can look like, and how this can kind of develop. So, why do you think, Jaye, that it's so easy to slip into that like, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again I swear, I swear, I swear. Please don't, please don't be my friend."

Jaye: So, there are a lot of components to that. It's like the shame piece of like, "Oh my gosh, I'm such a piece of shit. I feel bad. They want me to feel bad, right? So I'm going to feel really bad so they know that I feel bad." This is something that I had done in a previous life, my sister would tell me that I am doing something that is really terrible to her, and I would call myself a piece of shit and I would cry, and then my sister would walk it back, say like, "No, no, it's fine. I'm just I'm being oversensitive. You're OK," and it's because she was uncomfortable with the distress that it caused me. So, she would walk it back and I'd be like, "Oh, OK, I'm fine."

Cate: Yeah.

Jaye: They said I'm actually fine. It's their bad. And that didn't change my behavior. So, eventually, when that happens enough, I call this like "Lost Cause Territory," they will not be able to bring up any feedback without it causing me distress and I will never change. So, they will consider me to be a lost cause and they will no longer bring it up. Which sounds great to me, but they will still feel it. It will damage the relationship in that way because they're like, "She's a lost cause. I can't trust her with my feelings anymore."

Cate: When we do that, which is and also I have been absolutely guilty of that in the past. Like now, I'm so upset about the feedback that you're giving me that now it's your job to make me feel better. And that's really unfair.

Jaye: Really unfair.

Cate: And it can be something that happens really easily, I think too. What do we do about it? Because obviously this is going to impact relationships very broadly, but also very specifically in these moments.

But it also reminds me of some of the other conversations that we've had on the show about things like weaponized incompetence and parentified relationships, you know, that kind of stuff where it's like, "If I can't ever come to you with honest feedback because there's such a reactionary element to it, like that's really going to impact our relationship, that's really going to affect our ability to openly and honestly communicate with each other that's going to impact the way that we build a solid foundation for a relationship." Like that to me feels like a really big thing that we need to be watching out for if we know that that's something that we tend to do.

Jaye: Yeah. And even the other reaction where it's like, "No, I didn't," or "You're being oversensitive. I didn't mean to do that. So, you shouldn't be upset about it." That reaction happens because again, we're trying to decide whether or not we deserve to feel terrible about it. And if we don't deserve to feel terrible about it, we're going to say that it's not our fault or do the blame shifting and all these other things that are really terrible, that also damage the relationship.

So, what we can do is something else entirely, and it is addressing directly the damage that was caused by our actions, intentionally or not.

Real-life example. My friend had told me that in our conversations I make her feel bad about herself and I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Right? in my head, of course. I was like, "What? I don't even understand." And she had said, "I feel like you are always making these little subtle digs like you'll say, 'oh, we're like the two Asians, but you're the colorful one with all the prints and the colors, and I'm the one who is really, like, buttoned up and only wears three colors.'" And in my head, I'm just like, "Yeah, where's the dig? I don't really understand."

But to her, she was just like, "Yeah, that seemed like a subtle dig that you're comparing us and I'm childish or, you know, not as professional as you." And in my head, I'm just like, "What? That's not what I was thinking at all." And instead of verbalizing that reaction, which is also valid for us to have that reaction because it's like, "Whoa, whoa, this is not what I was thinking at all," saying that to someone is not helpful, because what that does is it invalidates their feelings. And there can be so many other things behind those feelings, like they could have been told by a lot of people that the way that they dress or whatever is really unprofessional or, you know, chided for not having more of a buttoned-up appearance.

And so, the questions that I ask in this situation, to me and for my clients is, what do you think they are feeling from what you have said to them or what you have done? So, I thought about it, and like she is having a reaction to what she considers to be a dig. I'm bringing up something and I don't know the context behind it. I don't know what she's encountered before, but this has made her feel like I'm criticizing her and is making her feel insecure and unsafe in this friendship.

And I say, "Did you intend to make them feel that way?" And the answer is most of the time, "no." It's like, "OK, what could you do to give the opposite of the feeling that they have?" Right? So, it's not just, "No, that's not what I meant at all. This is what I meant" or "That's not what I meant. Don't put words in my mouth." Not helpful. Totally not helpful.

Cate: That's where we're slamming the brakes, right? That's what we're saying "No no no no no, that's not what I meant. This is what I meant."

Jaye: Yeah. So, I told her, one: I didn't actually mean it that way, but I can see why it was taken that way. So, I'm sorry I said those things that made you feel like I don't respect you and I think I'm better than you, and all these things that I actually did not even think. The reason why I said it was because I am actually in awe of you. Because I always feel like I can't break out of this monotonous box that I've put myself in. I actually can't wear prints. It's hard for me to wear colors, and I just always admired how original an individual you are, and that you're able to have a successful business showing you exactly as you are, without any pretense. That has always made me feel so inspired.

So, it's directly addressing these feelings she has. It is making how I feel about her known because a lot of people are like, "Well, they should know, they should know that I think they're amazing." It's like "How?" And so, for this, it's like I am explicitly letting her know how I feel about her. I am validating her feelings. It's totally valid for her to think that was a dig. Could have been. But now I need to assure her that it's not a dig and to kind of walk the walk.

And this is what I mean by reversing the train. Instead of just saying like "That is not what I meant," I can make her feel better than she felt about herself before I did that dig. I can make the relationship closer, safer than it would have been if there was never a perceived dig.

Cate: There's that element of repair to it. There's that, not only are you taking responsibility, and not only are you taking ownership, you're also saying, "Let me do repair here. Let me ensure that we both come away from this conversation feeling better, feeling like this issue is resolved," and the empty promise of "I swear, I promise I'll never do it ever again," it's in that moment you're also showing that you're a trustworthy person. You're a person who is willing to put in the work. That's such a powerful idea. I was looking to say like, "Wow, I love that." I'm like, "Yeah, that's what you should be doing."

I see so often the tendency towards perfectionism, especially in women with ADHD, especially in like diagnosed women with ADHD. And I think it's really easy to see how that happens, right? That idea of you are struggling internally with this thing that maybe you don't even have a name for, maybe you don't even understand. And so, things fall through the cracks. Things get lost, things get messy, whatever it might be. And then there's the internalized judgment of, "Well, it's so much easier for everybody else. Why isn't it easy for me? I must be a bad person. I must be a dummy. I must be a terrible partner or a terrible friend or whatever."

Do you think that reaction of, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again" or that like, "No, I didn't," like, are those just sort of two different versions of a reaction to perfectionism? Like, how does that show up?

Jaye: It's actually like a chicken or an egg thing. The perfectionism stems from us feeling terrible when we make mistakes. We want to avoid making any mistakes. We want to avoid any criticism. We want to avoid any of those conversations where we're getting critical feedback or whatever. And then the perfectionism makes us say like, "Well, look at all of the effort that I'm putting in to be perfect, and you're still nitpicking me about this thing," where really it doesn't have to do with any of that.

It's like a cycle of creating more and more anxiety and more and more tension and more and more opportunity to be the lost cause. And there is something to be said about embracing the imperfections, even the whole like "What is an imperfection? What is unacceptable?" And I think I told you this about the laundry. I don't fold my laundry. I usually don't even separate them. I like, have a clean basket and I have a dirty basket, and I just pull them out of my clean basket like I'm playing claw machine at the arcade. So, I say that to people and they're like, "Oh, but I wouldn't be able to do that." I'm like, "OK, well, I mean, you don't have to."

Cate: Yeah, it's OK. That's fine.

Jaye: But they're just like, "Yeah, but what about the wrinkles? It's like unfathomable that I am a woman, especially in the space, they're like "You know, do you tell your clients that you don't fold your clothes?" I'm like, "Yeah, I have a whole reel on it. Everyone knows I don't fold my clothes. I just don't consider it to be a good use of my time." I am intense about a lot of things. I mean, I'm really intense person. I don't know if you figured that out, but I'm really intense about a lot of things, and I can pick and choose what's actually important to me.

And so, the thing with perfectionism that I think is a problem is that it applies to all these things, and it's very fear based and it's not very priority based. And so a lot of the things that I am very particular about are priority based. It is very important to me that I deliver on things that I say I will deliver on. And so, I'm going to put a lot of energy in doing that as much as possible. But folding my clothes, having a zero-dish sink, is not something that actually is important to me, so I just don't do it.

Cate: See, it's interesting though, because Jaye, I don't know, like I'm going to argue with you on the podcast, I guess. To me though, that, you found the perfect system, right?

Jaye: Yeah.

Cate: Perfectionism, I think, like I'm really interested in how you're sort of defining it because it's that like externalized version of perfection that, "Well, everybody else has a perfectly organized and perfectly beautiful closet. Therefore, I am failing when I do not fold my laundry," but in reality, the self-awareness and the power in "Actually, I've thought a lot about it. I don't care what my closet looks like. I don't like folding my clothes. It's a system that works for me and this is how I should live my life." That is far more closer to perfect than the perfectionist version of it. Do you know what, you know what I mean?

Jaye: It's more perfect for me.

Cate: Yeah, exactly. And so, it's interesting because I wonder how much that also ties into themes like rejection sensitivity, and how that can show up in our relationships and how we communicate and, and all of those. That's a really big question to drop at the end of the show. But here we go.

Jaye: Well, I mean, a lot of it has to do with how we react to things and whether or not we allow ourselves to be imperfect. Perfectionism a lot of it is very "don't" based, "Don't make a mistake, don't slip up, don't do this." And the thing about "don'ts" with ADHD is it's way more intense. And so, the rejection comes when we're like, "Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't." Like there's no rejection sensitivity as intense as when we are clenching the entire time, and we're trying so hard and someone still finds a flaw. But if we are relaxed and a flag comes out and they're like, "Hey, you interrupted me!" Like, "Oh, I apologize. Continue. I'm listening. I promise." That is acceptable, right?

And a lot of it has to do with, are they in a psychologically safe space to be able to say, like, "Hey, can I finish my story?" And if they are in a safe place to do that, then we can go full excitement and be like, "Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I was just so excited about what you're saying. Please continue."

Cate: Yeah.

Jaye: You know that, that psychological safety, I know, "I'm listening. I'm listening. I'm doing the things to show that I'm listening to you," right? And so, I usually say I want to focus on the do's, not the don'ts. So, instead of saying like "Don't interrupt, don't interrupt, don't interrupt," so the do's are "I really want to hear the end of the story so that I can respond to them after they're actually done. That's really important to me."

And I'll share one thing about RSD that has really worked for me. I don't do anything for other people's reactions anymore. So, before I used to tell jokes and be like, "I want to tell a joke that everyone will laugh at," and now I tell jokes for myself. I tell jokes that I think are funny. And my friend, actually the one that I was talking about earlier, she was like, "You got a lot funnier recently." And I said, "Yeah, no, those jokes aren't for you. They're for me. I mean, you can laugh, but they're not for you."

And because of that, where everything I do is for myself and everyone else is allowed to join me in things, but they're not required, it's really taken away the need for a response from someone else. And so, if no one responds, I'm like, "I got what I wanted out of it. I wanted to share this picture of my dog. I wanted to tell this dumb joke and it was enjoyable for me. So, no one really needs to respond to it. And when they do, it's just an added bonus."

Cate: I'd love for you to chat a little bit about the scary part, because I know for me when I make a mistake, usually, especially if it's like a small thing, right? "Oops, I interrupted" that kind of thing. That, to me, especially at this point in my life, it's pretty easy for me to go, "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. Continue with your story." But when somebody that we love and we care about sits us down and drops that like, "Can we chat?" you know, thing, that is immediately emotionally dysregulating, for me at least.

And then it's, "Hey, so we're going to spend the next ten minutes talking about this behavior that you did and how it negatively affected me." And being present in that conversation and being vulnerable in that conversation, but I tend to get so emotionally dysregulated. So, what advice do you have about handling just like the conversation, the scary part of the conversation, before you respond?

Like I usually just go, "Hey, I actually need a couple minutes to process. Can we take a break? And then we'll come back and I'll talk more about it because I just need a time to process. But do you have other strategies or other things that can help in that moment when the taking ownership or the acknowledging can feel really scary?

Jaye: So, usually what I say is we know that this is going to happen. We know that there will be a point where we are dysregulated, and we need to have time to ourselves to kind of process our thoughts. What do we want to say to someone in that moment? And just practice. Practice practice, practice. And then by the time we are in that heightened state, we can have almost like an autopilot of saying, "I'm really just regulated right now. I really don't want to say something I don't mean that will hurt you. Can I have just 10, 20 minutes to cool down, process my thoughts, and have this conversation with you in a more calm state?"

And sometimes people we'll be like, "No, we're talking about it right now. And it's really unfortunate that people say that because so much damage can come out of that." But a lot of times people will say, especially if we give them the heads up before that, like "When I'm dysregulated, I say a lot of really mean things and I don't even mean them. I just lash out. I don't want to do that to you, and I don't even feel that way about you. So, if this happens and I tell you I need some time, it's because I want to be good to you."

Then later on, if that happens, it could be like, "I'm really dysregulated right now. Can I have a minute?" And most of the time, the answer is yes because that's what they want to. And we need to practice that because in the moment sometimes it just comes out like "I need time, OK? Why won't you let me have time." And it's really important to communicate those other pieces. So, practice, practice, practice.

Cate: OK, Jaye. Last thoughts, last pieces of advice, last words of wisdom for our dear listeners today who might be worried about making a mistake, but they really want to do better next time?

Jaye: I guess just the big takeaway that your mistake can make things better. It's not a lost cause. It's not a relationship is destroyed. There is a chance to make it better. So, I hope that you can take it.

Cate: Awesome. Jaye, thank you so much for being here. Crossover episode achieved.

Jaye: Yeah. Sorry, I missed this tip from an ADHD coach.

Cate: Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.

"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Samuel Adams is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. I'll see you next time.

Jaye: That walkie-talkie wasn't even period-accurate, so how dare they?

Cate: It wasn't. I would make that joke constantly. Maybe, like, "That's not historically accurate." I'd be like, "Thank you so much. You're at a Renaissance festival. Get over yourself."