Breaking the burnout cycle: What is burnout?

Feeling drained, unmotivated, or stuck in survival mode? In part one of our “Breaking the Burnout Cycle” series, host Cate Osborn and psychologist Dr. Shauna Pollard unpack the question: What is burnout? They explore the signs to watch for, how to recognize when you’re in it, and how it’s different from depression.

If you’ve been wondering whether what you’re experiencing is burnout, this episode is a good place to start.

Related resources

• ADHD burnout

• ADHD and depression

• Dr. Shauna’s website, https://drspllc.com/

Timestamps

(00:00) A word from Cate on burnout

(01:50) What is burnout? How is it different than depression?

(05:57) What happens when ADHD perfectionism and overcommitting meets burnout?

(08:06) How do we know that we’re starting to get burnout? How can we tell if it’s burnout or depression?

(12:11) How to recognize whether your battery is low or completely tapped out

(15:55) How to get to know ourselves and our bodies better to help us in the future

(22:57) Burnout spreading from work into the home

(26:39) Outro and credits

We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

Episode transcript

(00:00) A word from Cate on burnout

Cate Osborn: Hi everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry I Missed This," the show where we talk about all things ADHD, intimacy, relationship, communication, and more. It's me, your host, Cate Osborn, and I'd like to welcome you to episode one of three, "Breaking the Burnout Cycle," with our special guest, Dr. Shauna Pollard.

I don't know about you, dear listener, but I am in a season of burnout. And I have been struggle-bussing my way through things for a while now. I got curious about how burnout impacts our relationships, how burnout impacts our ability to communicate and ask for what we want and what we need. And then I remembered I have a whole podcast dedicated to these very same topics. And so I decided it might be fun to do a few episodes on burnout.

To help us discuss this topic, we've brought in expert and friend of the show, Dr. Shauna Pollard, to talk to us not only about how burnout impacts relationships, but also how we heal from burnout, how we break that burnout cycle. She is a licensed psychologist and researcher with over 15 years of clinical experience. She works with high-achieving professionals who are struggling with burnout, ADHD, and self-doubt.

In this episode, we're going to be answering the question, what is burnout? And how does it differ from depression, which is a much more nuanced conversation than I even anticipated.

(01:50) What is burnout? How is it different than depression?

Cate: Dear listener, this special series is coming at a rather poignant and pointed time in my life because your girl is burnt out. Your girl is struggling. I've been doing a lot for a long time, and I am starting to feel the effects of it. And so, Dr. Shauna, I'm so glad you're here to talk me personally through this. This one's just for me. But can you tell our dear listeners from a very baseline point of view, what is burnout?

Dr. Shauna Pollard: Yes. So it's interesting because there's not a medical diagnosis for it, but it's one of those things like maybe you didn't see it coming, but once you're there, you're like, this is it, right? So your capacity is reduced. The things you used to be able to do, it takes more energy to execute on them. Maybe things you used to be excited about or passionate about, you kind of aren't really motivated to do them. You kind of have a bit of cynicism.

And in some ways, you can think about it as being in multiple domains. Are you burnt out at work but still feel refreshed about life otherwise? Or are you burnt out all across the board? Are the responsibilities of work and home overloading you so much that you just feel like you're not really looking forward to the future if it's going to be like it is now? Maybe there's a feeling of being physically run down, tired, exhausted, not as productive as you used to be. If you have ADHD, it might mean your symptoms are more intense than they usually are. And it can feel like you're running on fumes because you've been going for too long and you're just kind of tapped out.

Cate: What is the difference then between burnout and depression?

Dr. Shauna: Usually with depression, the main characteristic is sadness or depressed mood. I would imagine with burnout, that may be there, but it may not even be there because it may be that if sadness has been going on for so long, it may really just be more of an irritability and anger, an absence of emotion, kind of like feeling numb or withdrawn. But you can also see that in depression, right? So they can look a lot alike on the surface. And I think you would probably need to have a mental health professional involved to kind of sort through.

I would say burnout is going to come maybe with more feeling physically weighed down. But depression can have that too. So, this is a stumper.

Cate: I mean, it feels like a different way of describing depression, but that is couched in activities. It's couched in how much you're doing rather than how you're feeling. But I don't know, it's just really interesting to me because depression in me feels so nearly identical to the idea of burnout. I'm not here to disprove burnout, certainly, but I wonder if it's part of the conversation about how we talk about it.

Dr. Shauna: You know, I think it's really interesting because when we think about depression, there are so many different reasons why it can develop. For many people, there's like a precipitating event, right? So a big loss, a big shift in your life, or maybe a realization that things aren't going the way that you expected. And it's more like a chronic situation that can just kind of come out of nowhere. Although with most clients, when we look at it, it doesn't come out of nowhere. I think with burnout, probably what makes it different is sort of like you operate at high capacity for a long period of time, and then all of a sudden like you've run out of gas. And that shows up in so many different ways, whether it is like a depletion of your physical health and physical functioning or whether it's a depletion of your motivation and your energy to do things.

I would say one thought I'm thinking about it's maybe a differentiator, the quality of your depressive thoughts. When you're depressed, what are you depressed about? And if you're burnt out, it could be that like physically, maybe you're depressed because you don't have the capacity to execute on things that you used to execute or do things. So, I think like you said with those differences in definition, with burnout, the depression might be secondary to the physical depletion and functioning, as opposed to with depression, the negative thoughts might really be more about yourself. And the inner critic will be loud. So it is hard because they travel together. But I think probably if you actually would look at the negative thoughts associated with each, you'd see there's probably a different pathway.

(05:57) What happens when ADHD perfectionism and overcommitting meets burnout?

Cate: I'm interested in what you said about that kind of idea of depletion, because we are oftentimes taking on the bulk of the labor. We're throwing ourselves into, you know, our work, our home, whatever, because we have that perfectionist streak. We have that need to be seen as competent. And so we're just doing more and more and more and more and more. But then there's like the little bonus of even like hyperfixation. Like I'm going to get hyper-focused on cleaning my upstairs, I speak from very deep personal experience, you know, and I'm going to do nothing but clean for five days straight until that hyper-focus wears off. But now I'm like, I can't even, I'm so tired. I cannot possibly clean anymore. And so I feel like living in that duality of perfectionism and burnout, that has to lead to a lot of that kind of depletion, right?

Dr. Shauna: Yeah, and I think that that characteristic of like going, going, going, doing, doing, doing, and then crashing, I think that's much more of what you see in burnout, because you've been doing too much for too long for whatever reasons are driving you. It may be that some of the thinking undergirding it is similar. There's going to be parallels in like, this is how things should be, this is how I should show up in the world. But then I also think with ADHD, sometimes it can be that you're really excited or you're really passionate about things. And you know, when you think about interoception, which is the ability to tune into your body and notice the sensations that are there, whether it's the urge to go to the restroom or whether it's the fact that you need to eat. Sometimes with the hyper-focus, people are so engrossed, so engaged, so excited about what they're doing that they can go, go, go, go, go, and their body is what taps out before their will to do things. So I think sometimes what you see with burnout is there is a desire to do more. There is a desire to be engaged, to show up in the world, but the body won't support it because you've sort of depleted the resources without replenishing them appropriately.

(08:06) How do we know that we’re starting to get burnout? How can we tell if it’s burnout or depression?

Cate: I do the same thing. It's like, I don't notice if I'm hungry or thirsty or tired or have I eaten in seven hours or have I just been sorting craft supplies in my guest room or whatever? How do we know that we are not even in burnout, but like the very beginning stages of it, right? Like how do we know that we're dipping our toe into the burnout pool?

Dr. Shauna: Yeah, I think sometimes that's hard to figure out, but I think it's really important. And I think that's where mindfulness really helps a lot, like being able to develop that practice of tuning in and checking in and observing where am I at? How am I doing? Where am I different than how I was last week, the month before, the year before? Are people telling me to slow down, that I'm doing too much, right? If that's coming from multiple directions.

Cate: I did not come to my own podcast to be attacked. It's fine.

Dr. Shauna: Well, you know, that's a sign for me. You know, people will be like, oh, that's a lot. And I'm like, it's fine. Another concept that I think marks burnout versus depression is masking. And so I think with every neurodivergent trying to show up as more competent than you feel or trying to give the appearance that you have it all together, that can absolutely push you to burnout because sometimes people overcompensate, like you go too far and you don't realize it until your body lets you know like that was too much for you the next day, the next week, the next month, you get sick, you have a migraine, you don't want to get out of the bed.

Cate: What is the difference then between burnout and depression?

Dr. Shauna: I think what makes it so tricky is how we assess depression too. One of the major ways that it gets assessed in medical settings is like a PHQ-9.

Cate: Dear listener, the PHQ-9, you've probably taken it before when you've gone to your therapist's office. It's the one that starts with little interest or pleasure in doing things. And then it's not at all, several days, more than half the days, nearly every day. And there's like a point system.

Dr. Shauna: So I always ask people with that question, right? Like little interest or pleasure, is it little interest or is it little pleasure? Because if it's little pleasure, that's more of a depression symptom. Well, let me restate that. So I know I'm going off on a tangent you weren't going on the question.

Cate: No, it's okay. I'm still here for this tangent. Let's do it.

Dr. Shauna: Say you enjoy playing the guitar. If you pulled out the guitar and you start playing, you're going to feel great and enjoy it. That might be a different symptom than if you play the guitar and it just doesn't bring you joy anymore. And so I always go through each of the symptoms with people and kind of ask like, what is driving this? What is driving that? And that's where you can sort of distinguish between what's more of burnout, you know, because I think with burnout, it's like you want to do it, you just can't muster up the energy or you can't get yourself into the activity. But once you're into the activity, you can enjoy it. There's no one profile for depression. And it looks different in everybody.

And so with the questions, it's really important not just to go on a symptom total, and that's the mistake that sometimes people will get diagnosed with depression if they have enough answers ticked off on the box. But really what you want to look at is what has changed. And I would always ask people with the question of like, are you eating more or eating less? What's your baseline? Do you like to eat a lot and then you're eating even more? Or are you, do you just never have an appetite? So you really want to be comparing the person to who they were before and then looking at where the changes. And that's where it's going to look different. Like some people when they're depressed, they sleep too much. And then other people can't sleep. They have early morning wakening.

So that's the thing, there's no one classic depression symptom. And so you really don't want to go on totals, you really want to go on like, how does this represent a change? That's why it's hard for me to answer that question like, is it burnout or is it depression? Because more of how I answer it is through the interview and through putting the whole story together. What was your life like before? What has changed? What does that change look like? How is your ability to function and move and show up in the world changed? And how do you feel about that?

(12:11) How to recognize whether your battery is low or completely tapped out

Cate: I want to take a couple of steps back and talk about deep in the valley, right? Deep in burnout. Because we talked a little bit about what does it look like when you're kind of stepping your toe and you're getting burnt out. But another thing that I see a lot is people who have been pushing through and they've been pushing through and they've been pushing through. And then there's sort of comes that day where the battery doesn't deplete, it just kind of explodes. And it's, there's this paralysis element, there's this, this freeze element, there's this immediate overwhelm of like, oh my God, what do I do? So how do you recognize when your battery is low versus literally exploding?

Dr. Shauna: I think it's mapping out what burnout looks like for you. For a lot of people, it's going to be aggravation of health symptoms. It's going to be that fatigue, the feeling run down. So one good way to pay attention is irritability when people ask you to do things that you didn't used to be irritable about. So if someone's like, "Hey, we need you to come make something for a bake sale," and you're like, "I don't want to." Really being in tune with, hey, what's that about?

A part of watching yourself as you trend towards burnout and when you're in burnout is to pay attention to anger. Anger is often a sign that our boundaries are being crossed, whether it's us crossing it for ourselves or other people asking more of us than we have to give. So I think that could be a really, really early sign is that you notice that you're much more angry, that you're much more irritable, that you don't have as much patience with people. And either you'll feel that, like you'll feel it in your body that sensation of anger, or people will tell you like, "Whoa, you didn't have to say it like that or you're making a big deal." You'll notice that you're avoiding, you don't really want to answer people's calls or texts, and you're like, if one more person asked me to do one more thing.

Dr. Shauna: That feeling, the emotional regulation component of that. I feel like that's just challenging in general because when you're exhausted, your fuse is a little bit shorter, your patience is a little bit thinner already. Another way that you can figure it out is when you're crossing your own boundaries, like when you really don't want to be doing something and then you do it anyway, and that repeated cycle of like, "Ugh, why did I do that?" As people move through therapy, they get better at noticing that before it happens. But in the early stages, they notice it afterwards. So exhaustion is another early sign that you're more exhausted than you used to be, you're more angry, you're more irritable than you used to be. And it's not going away. You're not returning back to baseline as quickly as you used to. It's like those emotions hang around a little bit longer and they really stay and stick with you. And then there's a lot of rumination, you're really thinking about these things over and over and over and over again.

Cate: What about the opposite, right? Where it's, I'm so burnt out, I'm so tired. I really don't want to go to the party tonight. And it would be a lot easier to say no, I don't want to go to the party. And then you go to the party and you're like, that was really fun. That was a good, that was a good time. That, you know, like that filled my cup a little bit.

Dr. Shauna: So I think one way to look at that is what was it that made you so exhausted? Was it just circumstantial, like a rough week? Or are you always feeling exhausted? Because basically that means you're depleting yourself to the point that you don't have the resources and the energy left to do the things that you really want to do and that really matter to you. And so when you have that moment where you're like, "Ugh, I really want to do this thing, but I'm too tired," and then you go and you're like, "I'm so glad I went, that was so much fun." It's a sign that like you are not creating space and not creating energy. You're pushing yourself too much in other domains of your life and you don't have enough left for the domain that really matters and really fulfills you.

(15:55) How to get to know ourselves and our bodies better to help us in the future

Cate: Something that comes up on this show over and over and over again is the necessity and the importance and the value of knowing yourself, being able to sort of have that mindfulness component, that introspective component. And I'm wondering if you can talk about how we develop those tools, especially if we are a person who has been in the habit of people pleasing or just pushing ourselves until our battery is no more. How do we start developing skills of being able to say, hey, I'm pushing myself too hard. This is what happens the day after. Like, how do you, how do you even begin to start that?

Dr. Shauna: I think reading can be a way to do that. So reading books about how does one get to know oneself or doing workbooks. I think a part of it is carving out time alone. Carving out time for solitude, which I think can be really important for like the busy moms out there, because you might never get a moment to yourself. I think it is just starting to explore in little small ways, like finding a podcast that you want to watch or listen to, right? And then following your impulse. So exploring things that you think would be interesting and then checking back in, "Did I really enjoy that? Was it really interesting? Was it really pleasurable?"

Those can be little ways to start to get to know yourself. And then I think a big part of it, and maybe we didn't go over exactly what mindfulness is, but it is the ability to tune into what's happening within you physically, to notice what's happening in your body as you show up in different settings or as you experience different things. You can develop it through things like yoga or doing breathwork. Even taking like dance, things that help you really get in touch with your body really start to help you tune into what's your baseline, like when you're calm, when you're relaxed, what does it feel like to be in your body in that way? And then you have a nice frame for what you're like when you're distressed. And you're like, "Oh, like, where did that come from?" For some folks, they have been distressed for so long that they lose that baseline.

Another way to do it is just go to the doctor, get a physical checkup. So that's an objective way for someone to tell you, "These are, this is what we noticed going on in your body," and then you can see, "Huh, did I realize that was happening? Or did I have no clue?" There's a difference between someone who gets a diagnosis and they're like, "Makes sense, explains everything that's been going on." And then there are other folks who are like, "Oh, I had no clue this was happening, right?" And if you're in the "had no clue" camp, that's a sign that you might need to get more in touch with your body.

And so I think anything that involves moving, movement, physicalness, it can just even be going outside and putting your feet in the grass. You can also think about what did you like to do when you were a kid? What really made you happy? Those are sort of other ways to start to get in tune or ask people what were you like? What makes your heart beat fast? What makes the pain in your back increase? What makes it go away? Starting to explore what feels good to you physically and what your body feels like when it's calm, even if you're distressed most of the time, you should be able to have those moments that maybe are few and far between. But when you do feel good and then really just tuning into those.

Cate: I really struggle with that brain-body connection. Like there's sort of like a line that, you know, severs my head. I'm like, I'm a head attached to like a floating meat sack, which is wildly inconvenient a lot of the time. And so I spend a lot of time up in my head. And so one of the things that I really had to start exploring was getting more into my body. It was more like somatic, even just like going for walks, which is so annoying, like going on a stupid walk for your stupid mental health. A lot of the times, if I'm ignoring my body, if I'm not caring for my body because I'm spending so much time in my head, that's when a lot of those like burnout symptoms really start showing up for me.

Dr. Shauna: I experience that and a lot of my clients experience it. And I think I have a lot of folks who have to do work that involves the mind. And so sometimes they lose touch with the physical sensations and the physical part. Tuning into the five senses can be a really good way to do that. Notice the sounds that you hear, notice what's touching your skin, notice how your feet feel when they walk on the ground.

And then one key thing to mindfulness is doing it in a non-judgmental way, which I think for folks is the hardest part. And so it's just noticing like, "Hm, I'm noticing some pain in my foot," without saying like, "Oh my gosh, that's terrible. I need to get this fixed right away." So the key to mindfulness is being able to tune in to what's happening in the current moment, but to be able to allow space for whatever's there to be there and not to judge it as good or bad. It simply, it is.

Cate: There are so many, I'm just going to say toxic traits that I think come along with the experience of ADHD. And I know for me, one of those toxic traits is self-judgment, is punishing myself if I feel like I'm not doing a good enough job or "why can't I just," or "I should be able to," fill in the blank, you know, whatever. How do those attitudes shape burnout, contribute to burnout?

Dr. Shauna: Those messages can often feel like perfectionism. If everything isn't great, I need to keep pushing myself. I need to overdo. I'm not allowed to be imperfect. I'm not allowed to have challenges and issues, which almost goes against the definition of ADHD, right?

Cate: Oh my God, sorry. Keep talking, but that just like hit me right in my heart. Sorry, please continue.

Dr. Shauna: Yeah, so I think it is like recognizing in this moment that there are things going well with you and there are challenges that you're experiencing, and you're still a person that's worthy. You're still a person that has value even with the challenges that you're facing. And so I think the negative voice, the inner critic is often telling you that that's not true, that unless you're perfect, unless you nail a perfect 10 on everything, then what's the point? And I think ADHD could often be sometimes all or nothing.

Cate: It's sort of like why I never wanted to run a marathon because I'm like, I'm not going to win. What's the point? I have to win, I have to be the best, and if I'm not, then I have failed.

Dr. Shauna: Sometimes it's just knowing that and accepting that I have permission to be okay at some things. No one person is excellent everywhere. And so as you were saying that, that comes up a lot with folks. I've had some folks like trying to learn new things, and that's where a lot of the perfectionism shows up. I think we all need to hold space for the fact that like there's still value in doing a marathon even if you come in last place. You're the one who showed up and did something new for yourself. So I think a lot of times it's reframing. Do you have to be excellent at every single thing you do?

Cate: Yes.

Dr. Shauna: And if you do, how much of life are you missing out on? Because everything doesn't demand perfection.

(22:57) Burnout spreading from work into the home

Cate: Burnout sort of came from this idea of too much work, right? Like it was a like a corporate capitalistic kind of thing. But then burnout has kind of spread into the home. It's kind of spread into home maintenance, childcare, that kind of thing.

Dr. Shauna: It is really interesting because I think it shifts how you look at what's happening, right? Like when you look at it in terms of depression, often it is kind of in that context like in a therapist's office or in a primary care's office. It is seen as like an individual problem. Whereas burnout tends to be more of a systemic issue. Like if you're burning out because of too much work, who's giving you too much work? If you're burning out at work because, what I see with a lot of neurodivergence is terrible systems, you're not the sole reason or the reason at all that you burn out. You're sort of like a victim of your circumstances and it sucks because then you're sort of left to pick up the pieces and put yourself back together. And then you could ask the question of like, how do I put myself back together when I'm in an environment that's still burning me out?

Cate: I work from home and so my experience with burnout is so different, right? Because like a lot of my burnout comes from like, my phone is my office. And so if I'm holding my phone, I'm like, "I should be working, I should be doing more, I should be doing this, I should be doing that." And then on top of that, like keeping up with the house, keeping up with the chores, keeping up with the bills, keeping up with all that different stuff. So what, what do, Dr. Shauna, what do?

Dr. Shauna: I think what you're asking is like, how do we cope with burnout when there are so many causes? So I think your point that you just made before is really valid. In some ways, it can't necessarily be fixed on an individual level completely. At the individual level, it might look like advocacy, advocating for more support, advocating to be able to take a break, to be able to take space. And that's actually a tough space to be when you're truly burnt out because you don't have the energy to meet that demand, right? Because trying to get people to fix things, trying to confront people, trying to speak to people that are making your life stressful, often involves a lot of energy and it might involve some conflict. And when you're burnt out, you really don't have the capacity to do that.

So I think part of it is just acknowledging the factors that might be contributing to your burnout. And even doing an assessment of like, can it be improved? Are there steps that I could take to improve it? Do I have to leave the setting to be able to improve it? Do I have to radically shift how I'm doing things? Do I have to change my relationship with how I meet the workplace demands? Do I need accommodations of some sort? So I think it is really tricky because we don't want to put it all on the individual in terms of how you address burnout. And also, no one is also going to address it for you usually. Like other people may have caused it. This is the tricky thing sometimes with therapy, like other people might be the reason why you're in therapy, but you can't bring them in necessarily or always. And so your challenge is to figure out where you do have agency, where you do have space, where you can make changes on your end and then being thoughtful about are there ways to advocate for yourself or to make some changes that will reduce the likelihood of you getting burnt out in the same way, or help you to replenish, restore, and recharge.

(26:39) Outro and credits

Cate Osborn: Dr. Shauna, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Dear listener, on episode two of "Breaking the Burnout Cycle," we are going to be talking about rest. What is rest? How do we rest? How does that even work? I don't believe in it. So Dr. Shauna is going to have some explanations for me. So thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye. Bye.

Thank you for listening! Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes, with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at SorryImissedthis@understood.org. 

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"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis.

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And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you SO much for listening!