This Freelance Writer Doesn’t Fit the ADHD Stereotype
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Inattentive ADHD: A freelance writer shares her journey to diagnosis

Hanna Brooks Olsen is a freelance writer with ADHD. Coming to her ADHD diagnosis was a long journey. Like so many, Hanna thought ADHD was purely hyperactivity, and she didn’t fit that description. But when she learned about the inattentive aspect of ADHD, she saw the connection to her life. She realized that her ADHD symptoms were intertwined with her bipolar disorder, anxiety, and eating disorder. 

As a freelance writer, Hanna does it all — from editing nonprofit newsletters to writing tweets. But she didn’t set out to become a jack-of-all-trades writer. Like many college graduates, she just wanted to earn enough money to pay her rent and student loans. After working a few odd jobs, Hanna discovered that she could use her skills on her own time to do what she loves: write.

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Episode transcript

Eleni: Hi, everyone. It's Eleni. Before you begin the episode, we wanted to let you know that my guest Hanna and I talked about ADHD and eating disorders, as well as Hanna's past drug use. These issues and ADHD can show up together more than we may think. And Hanna's story isn't the only one like this. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Hanna: He's like, "What do you know about ADHD?" And I was like, "Very little. I know very little. I don't know. I don't have that." Because I was like, I'm not hyperactive. I'm not a hyperactive person. I'm actually fairly stagnant. And then he starts running through all these other things. And I was like, "Oh, yeah. OK, then." And what I realized was I had all these workarounds that I'd been using in my career and in my life for so long that I was like, oh, that makes sense. That scans.

Eleni: From the Understood Podcast Network, this is "How'd You Get THAT Job?!," a podcast that explores the unique and often unexpected career paths of people with learning and thinking differences. My name is Eleni Matheou, and I'm a user researcher here at Understood. That means I spend a lot of time thinking about how we find jobs we love that reflect how we learn and who we are. I'll be your host.

My next guest, Hanna Brooks Olsen, is a freelance writer. She writes everything from tweets for politicians to reported articles to essays about her own journey with mental health and ADHD. Growing up in a low-income household, Hanna didn't even know that careers like hers existed. Now she's her own boss, and she can contribute to projects that she's really passionate about, including ones that tackle class and labor rights. Welcome to the show, Hanna.

Hanna: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Eleni: I know in a previous conversation you mentioned that your grandmother doesn't understand what you do. So let's dispel that mystery now. How would you describe your job to a 5-year-old or in a way that your grandma might actually understand?

Hanna: This actually just came up in my life because I have a niece who's 5½. And at some point she had asked me like what I did because I was always working on my computer, but I was always in the house. And her mom goes to a job because she's a dog groomer. And so she was like, "You don't go to work?" And I was like, "No, my work is — it's in the computer. It's online because I'm a writer." I don't know why, but we were watching some show she was watching. I was like, "Oh yeah, like a journalist. Like, that's what — that's what I do." Or that's what I used to do more really. Then just the other day, I was with her and I was like, "Oh yeah, when I was a journalist...." And she stopped me and she goes, "Auntie Han, I thought you were a journalist." I was like," Great. Yes, good point. OK.".

So how do I explain this? So I was a journalist. I started in radio and I was in public radio. And then I was in print, and I worked at an alt weekly and I worked in, you know, commercial news. And then sort of all of that just went away. That entire industry kind of disappeared — or at least didn't keep up with the needs of the local economy where I was living. So I now — I'm a writer. That's what I do. If you assign me something and you need it to sound good and communicate and, you know, have a narrative structure, like, I can do that for you, regardless of sort of what the industry is. I'm always just trying to find a way to use those skills. I've worked with local governments. I've worked with campaigns and candidates. I worked with a think tank for a while. And so I'm sort of just like a hired gun writer. And I get to use those journalism skills, but I use them like for policy issues.

Eleni: You mentioned growing up in a small town. You also grew up pretty poor. Do you want to talk a little bit about how that influenced your career choices and where you ended up?

Hanna: Yeah, so I would say it's a small town — it's really not. I grew up in Eugene, Oregon. It was much smaller when I lived there. Now it's, I guess a mid-size town. Although my brother once described it as a suburb of a bigger city that doesn't exist, which is like so true for the dynamic. And my parents are very working class. Neither of them have university degrees. We just sort of like did what we did. I didn't see what writing looked like as a job. I didn't know anybody who was a copywriter. I didn't know anybody who was, you know, like a digital strategist. That didn't exist at the time.

And so for me, I wanted to go to college to get a degree that could immediately put me into a career, that could immediately make it so that I was making money. Because if there was even a single period of two weeks where I wasn't getting a paycheck, that's it. Like I — then I live outside. Like it was that, you know, I did not have a safety net. I did not have financial resources to stretch me for any amount of time. And so the way I grew up and then going into school for me was always like, OK, how am I going to make this work? Like, how am I just going to get to the next step and how am I going to get to next week? So that always was the guiding for me. Like, that was always what decided things for me was whether or not I would be able to, like, get a paycheck.

Eleni: Yeah. So the main driver for your career choices really was having a living wage?

Hanna: Yeah. Yeah. And I worked, you know, for minimum wage for so long. I worked in diners and coffee shops and bars. I like was a janitor for a decent amount of time. Like, I just, like, took jobs, whatever jobs I could take — while also hoping that at some point I would be able to, like, do the thing I was good at and loved for an amount of money that made sense.

Eleni: Mm hmm.

Hanna: Like, I remember someone asked me, like, "Oh, what's your dream job?" When I was, like, 21, and I was like, "Oh, I want to work for The Stranger," which is the alt weekly in Seattle. And they were like, "That's not really that much of a dream." And I was like, "For me, it is. Like that's exactly what I want to do." And a couple of years later, I was in a position where they did offer me a job. And the salary literally would not have covered my rent, let alone my student debt that I still had. Or, you know, food. And so, there was a lot of inflection points like that where I had to sort of like decide what the thing I wanted to do was worth and how I was going to make a living and how those two things were completely divergent.

Eleni: Now that you're a freelancer, do you feel that that structure supports your financial goals? How did you kind of land on that?

Hanna: I started freelancing because I had a full-time job that was OK. I had like a job in marketing. It was fine. But I started freelancing on top of that. To make more money and also just like figure out that area. And then it got to a point where I had enough doors open as a freelancer that I was able to be like, OK, like I can quit. I can quit this day job and, you know, retain some amount of sanity because like that amount of work is unsustainable.

I remember my first day as a full-time freelancer, getting up at my own pace, checking my email on my phone, walking my dog, and then just like sitting on my couch and doing a day's worth of work without commuting, without having to make small talk in the office, without interruptions all day. And I was like, oh, this is amazing. Like, this is great for me because it not only, like, met my needs, you know, as far as a workplace. I also realized I could control my income way better. Because my job in marketing — I remember we'd get called in to these all hands meetings and our CEO would be like jumping around and celebrating and like, "Oh my God, like, you guys helped us make, like, so much money" and like, hyping the corporate profits or whatever. And I just remember being like, dog, I made the same amount. Like, my check's the same, so I don't really know what to celebrate here for you. Like, cool. My income has literally nothing to do with the success or failure of this company. And it was sort of at that moment that I was like, I'm not trying to make money just for somebody else either.

And when I'm freelancing, like I get to control my rates, I get to control my hours. I can say I'm out of time for this, which is huge for me as a person, one with ADHD. Where I will — I think a lot of people probably know the relationship between ADHD and perfectionism. But the older I've gotten and the more I've gotten into this, the more I can actually time track and say like, no. Like I said, you would have four hours today. You got four hours today. Every minute that I spend above four hours is either me losing money because I'm not working for another client or me making you money and not making me money. And like the ability to be cutthroat like that has been, like, incredible.

Eleni: Totally. So I would love to hear a little bit more about your diagnosis story. We haven't actually really touched on your ADHD except for what you just mentioned. So I think before we get into all of that, it'd be really great to have some additional context. And I know, you know, you already mentioned growing up poor and like having a bunch of odd jobs, which I presume also means that you didn't have health care. God bless America. But it sounds like you did eventually get diagnosed. Yeah, and then we can kind of get more into it, like what's going on day to day?

Hanna: Yeah, it's funny because I always think about how, like, the most reliable health care I ever had was when I was in college because, like, I had access to the student health center. Functionally, they call it, quote, for free. But if it is in fact, the most expensive health care you will ever have, because it comes with all your student loan debt. So, you know, give and take. But at that time in school, I went to a, you know, nurse practitioner and then I went to an actual psychiatrist and then I went to a therapist because I was like, something is not — something is not operating properly in my brain.

At the time, I was also pretty I was pretty heavy into a into a pretty significant eating disorder that was making it hard for me to, like, live my life because I was just unwell. But it was also very easy to fall into those patterns because I was going to school and working so much. It was very easy to conveniently like have these disordered eating practices. And the excuse was like, oh, I'm busy.

So I went and they diagnosed me with bipolar and anxiety and I was like, OK, sure, check, scans, and put me on medication. And at first that was terrible, but then it was good. Found my way. And then I graduated. And then I didn't. Then I didn't have medication anymore. And then for several years I did not have medication or any way to get it. And there was no — like not only was there not, you know, there's community health care. I was living in Seattle at the time. But it was so difficult to get in and it was like I could never get in during the day because I was working. It's not like it's like — there's not like night clinics. And it was just so exhausting. And I was just like, oh, forget this. I don't I don't care anymore.

And then when I did finally get health care again through work, because they did work at a news station for several years, I remember going and being like, oh, I'm going to — like I'm going to go. I'm going to be serious about my mental health. I'm going to do this thing. And I went and I was like, "Hello, I have bipolar. That's the issue." And the guy was like, OK, tell me about all the like how your life is and what you, you know, whatever. And I was like, well.... He asked "What's your substance use history like?" And I was like, "I don't know, just, you know, recreational cocaine use." And he was like, "OK, so what does recreational mean?" I was like, "Oh, you know, literally every day, just in the morning to, like, help get it so that I can actually, like, work. I have to be at the station really early and I just I can't focus otherwise. So like that."

And he was like, great. You know, he like clicks his pen. He's like, "What do you know about ADHD?" And I was like, "Very little. I know very little. I don't know. I don't have that." Because I was like, I'm not hyperactive. I'm not a hyperactive person. I'm actually fairly stagnant. And then he starts running through all these other things and I was like, "Oh, yeah. OK, then." And so I think I was like 27. It was like pretty late. And what I realized was I had all these workarounds that I'd been using in my career and in my life for so long that I was like, oh, that makes sense. That scans.

Pretty quickly after that, I went back to freelancing. I had freelanced for a little while, and then I got this job at the station and then I ended up going back because I was like, oh, all these things that I thought just make me lazy or like, you know, somehow bad at work, are in fact not. They are just things that I needed to help me be productive and help my brain work. And then once I sort of got all that dialed in, I was like, cool. So freelancing it is then. Or at least at least working from home with a structure somewhat to my own design.

Eleni: It's actually really interesting because it's definitely supported both like in my research and like in the literature more broadly that sometimes people will like seek support for a different issue like depression or an eating disorder or like even sometimes other physical disabilities. And then that leads to an ADHD diagnosis, because people don't always recognize that some of the, you know, challenges or like problems they're facing that they're seeking support for actually like relate to, you know, a sign of like a learning and thinking difference until they, like, speak to a doctor or a therapist or like whoever it may be.

And it wasn't until like doing some of my research that I heard that there was like actually a connection between eating disorders and ADHD. I don't know if you know that, but there has been some research done on it. And it's really interesting because it kind of makes sense. It's like, again, as you mentioned, there are like healthy ways of coping and not-so-healthy ways of — like some people have workarounds and, you know, sometimes compulsive eating and fidgeting are actually like related in some ways.

Hanna: Oh, 100 percent. I mean, there's also — so there's all this — I think one of the main sort of points of stumbling that occurs in our general collective understanding of ADHD is the idea of the hyperactivity. We get so stuck on the hyperactivity that a lot of people are not aware, they don't know. They don't realize that like part of the hyperactivity is also impulse and impulse control. And the other part, the other kind of ADHD is like inattentive and distractible, right? And so distraction can be food related. Like inattention can be food related. And then certainly impulse control can be food related.

And one of the main reasons that we all, like, you know, we have our little — either our hyperactivity, our little tics, our, you know — I bit my nails until I was like 28 and then I was able to stop doing it in part because I started doing more work specifically on ADHD and how that impacted my like little micro fidgets. And that has to do with satisfying a brain that is really basically never satisfied, right? Like an ADHD brain is functionally never satisfied. It always needs more and more and more, bigger, more, more until you're overstimulated. And then you have a complete meltdown. And then you want to die because now you have too much.

And if you think about what is achieved through eating or not eating, that's a dopamine thing, right? That for me, the dopamine hit was getting on the scale all day, every day, on the scale, off the scale, on the scale. That dopamine hit satisfied in me something that in other people with ADHD might look different, right? But for me that was just part of it.

Eleni: Well, thank you so much for sharing that part of your story. It really normalizes talking about the domino effect that ADHD can have on other mental health challenges. You know, and I've asked you a few things about, you know, mental health, because I know that you're pretty open about it and you've written about it quite a bit to your job as a writer, as an essayist. I know you've even written some pieces for Understood. Like, did you ever expect to be sharing your personal experiences as part of your career?

Hanna: So I came up in the era — depending on how old a listener is, they may or may not remember the website xoJane. So back in the day there was a website called xoJane, and it was like a news kind of blog for women. And this was at the time when like newsy blogs for women were like it, right? Like, I remember Slate had their own called The Broadsheet and like Jezebel was just really like getting under way. And as a young writer at that time, it was kind of the only way to get published.

So there was on xoJane, there was a column series called "It Happened to Me," which is like still like a joke among my friends and I. And they would pay, I don't know, $125, which at the time seemed like a lot, you know, for a 350-word essay. And all you had to do was spill your ever-loving guts and tell every disgusting detail of your life. But there were so many young writers, young female writers for whom, like, that was the way in. That's how like a lot of pretty prominent, you know, later millennial early Gen X writers in the United States certainly built their bylines and sort of were able to kick open that door of bigger media.

When I was first writing — and this is like, you know, 2012-ish, and I got some bylines in some fairly, you know, significant publications by being hyper vulnerable. And so for me, it was kind of never a question of like, if that was going to be part of it, it was a question of how to do it in a way that is not, you know, extractive, that is not taking advantage. And also, that's not like — that's not trying to paint my experience as everyone's experience or somehow universal. And so now, you know, 15 years into my writing career, whenever I talk about things that are personal, I try to talk about them in the ways of like, OK, what did I wish someone would have told me when I was younger? What was the essay I needed? What was the thing that I didn't realize was true about me? And it's not true about everybody, but maybe it's true for like some other people. And how can I convey that? So I think that's my way of sort of threading that needle, I think.

Eleni: Yeah. And I imagine being a freelancer, you have some control over the type of projects that you're working on. Like how do you decide, you know, what you'll take on and what you contribute to?

Hanna: I mean, now I do. I don't feel like I had that choice, you know, when I was younger. I feel like I used to just have to take every crappy assignment I got or, you know, I would pitch something that felt comfortable. And then the editor would be like, no, I need more, like I want — there was just this constant mining of like, oh, also you have trauma. Cool, we love trauma, right? Like, and so I there was a, there was a moment where one of the reasons I sort of got out of freelancing the first time I started it and then sort of got back to it was because I didn't feel like I had that element of control.

Now, the fortune that I've had of, you know, being at this a long time, knowing people, like, I don't have to write personal essays anymore. I don't have to write personal essays to help pay the rent. I write personal essays now because I feel like I have something to contribute that is potentially helpful, and that I have perhaps a lens that is not a part of the greater story, or that I haven't seen, right? And a lot of times I'll — if I think I have an idea for a personal essay, I'll like watch the internet for a day or two and be like, is anybody else writing this? Is anyone I respect writing about this? No, OK. No. OK. And then that's when I'm sort of like, OK, this is an idea that I would like to add to the conversation.

And then the rest of the time, I get to write about things that are not — that don't have anything to do with my, you know, myriad issues. And instead, I get to write about way bigger issues and things that matter to a lot of people. And one of my major beats is class, labor, and wages and wealth. And I love doing that work because it comes from my experience, but it is not my experience. It is a much broader experience.

Eleni: Yeah. And I guess like a question I'm sure a lot of people have is like, how do you monetize some of that work?

Hanna: So to be transparent about monetizing, you have to be really — you have to diversify your work, right? Because you also never know when a client is just going to shrivel up and die or like leave or drop you, right? So there have been times where I was working directly with marketing agencies and they were like, oh, like we have a client who's a — one time I wrote for an auto glass place and they were like, "Our client needs one blog a month for SEO purposes, so can you write one blog a month about auto glass?" And I was like, "I don't know if I can, but maybe."

And so, like doing things like that where it's like, you know, it's not going to have my name on it. It's not a byline. It's a paycheck. So like focusing on that kind of thing, I think is a part of it. Like, I do a ton of work that does not have my name on it and I like it that way. I work with an alumni association for an institution of higher ed. I write copy for them, including social media stuff. I also help them write speaking points. I help them write and edit, you know, newsletters, that kind of thing. They have me on a monthly retainer. They use me as much as they can.

I have a couple of different, like, pricing structures with clients. It depends. Because some of my clients are nonprofit organizations and they just need help like writing their emails. And what they have is a list of ideas. What they don't know is how to necessarily structure them, write them clearly, and make the content like sound, you know, interesting or exciting. And then they pay me the flat rate that much every month. And I — because again, I still am racked with guilt and shame that — if I feel like I'm not doing enough for them, I will reach out and be like, "Can I do more for you? Like, I want to make sure I actually hit it this month." And a lot of times they're like no dog, because technically what a retainer should be is that they pay you no matter what, and if they don't use you, they are paying to just have your time available. They are retaining 10 hours a month of your time. That's the idea. So those same clients will be like, hey, we want to tweet about this event we have coming up. Can you help us figure out, you know, five or ten tweets about this? What days should we put them out? Like, what images should we have? Like that kind of thing? And I will do as much of that as I can within the 10 hours.

Other clients who have like — who are doing something bigger, like in previous years, I worked on political campaigns. And that's just like three very intense months where they basically retain me entirely for that time. And that's just what I work on and I'm sort of constantly working on it. And so for that, like, it's — so it's like writing again, like whatever they need, whatever a political thing about like what, what is on a political candidate's Instagram, right? It's like videos of them. A lot of times I would write the script for something like that or like that kind of thing.

And most of those are people that I've met through being active in my community, I just want to put out there. Both my nonprofit work and my work with candidates in campaigns is from being a member of — at the time when I was living in Seattle, I moved to Portland two years ago and I've been doing less of that since as a result. But I was a member of my legislative district. I was on the board of my legislative district. I was super involved. I was at all kinds of events. And so through that, I would meet a lot of lawmakers. And the thing I realized that was shocking to me was a lot of them were doing their social media themselves. Or like their aide is doing it. Or maybe their one communications guy who also works for like another agency and has five other clients.

So the thing I realized is I was like, well, if they have money in the war chest, if they're fundraising, they can pay me a relatively small amount for them to help actually really craft narrative, you know, digital outreach. And the only reason they don't do that is because there aren't very many people offering to do it for them. So if you are someone who like works in digital media at all and you want to be working with local elected officials, like, you just have to start doing it. And then once you have a couple of clients, you know, you get through like one election cycle, they'll spread your name around. Because it got to a point where people were emailing me and being like, "I'm running, can we meet? I want to talk. I want you to do my social."

Eleni: That's cool. I know you mentioned diversify. It sounds like you have a lot going on. For a lot of people I speak to, organization can be like a big challenge for ADHDers. Does that apply to you? Like how do you manage all those clients and all your time and all your paid projects and your side projects and everything you have going on?

Hanna: So I live and die by my calendar and my to-do list. So I use the Todoist app. Again, not an ad, I don't influence. I just could not exist without this app because it syncs to my phone, it's on my desktop, I can invite people to it. So I have shared, you know, Todoist lists like with my partner. So I have recurring things. I have some clients who have recurring needs where it's like, OK, every week I send a report on Wednesday. So I set up a recurring event every Wednesday and it says, "Do this report." And that way I don't have to think about it or remember it. If it's in Todoist, I will get it done. If I do not add it the second a client requests it from me, I will forget. And so it's on me to put it in it, and it is on the client to be very clear about when they want things by.

I also have had to get much better about forgiving myself for things that I think of as personal failures, but are actually just failures of organizational structure. You know, if I have a client who hints that they might like a blog post on a subject sometime next month, but they never circle back with me, and I email them to try and close the loop and say, "When do you want it by? What is the exact voice and tone you want, and what's your word count?" Right? "And do you want me to source the images?" Whatever my questions are. If they don't email me back, and then the next email I get is, "Where's this thing I asked for?" but my questions have gone unanswered, my immediate reaction is shame that I didn't do it, that I didn't intuit what they needed, that I wasn't proactive enough.

Because I think that's what we're taught about productivity, right? Is that somehow you're supposed to just, like, nail it. And one of the hardest things about freelancing is that the expectations can be nebulous, which is like my kryptonite. There is nothing worse for me than feeling like I don't know what someone expects of me. So in that way, freelancing is a terrible fit for me. I would I would love to have, like, you know, a more static set of expectations so that I'm not always worrying that I'm letting someone down, but I don't have that. So instead, I have to be really good about forgiving myself. I feel like there's a very real impulse among ADHD folks to assume everything's your fault, right? Why wouldn't it be?

Eleni: It sounds like, you know, over the years, you've kind of learned that one of the things you need is like really clear expectations setting and, you know, making sure that you're getting on the same page and like, you know, reading directions and things like that.

Hanna: Yeah, yeah.

Eleni: And keeping track of things and writing.

Hanna: It's one of those things that when I was 25, I don't think I was able to clearly state to clients or to people I was working with, you know, co-workers or bosses, whatever, to say, like, "Listen, I need very clear expectations of deliverables. I need to know exactly what you want and when." And so instead, I always felt like I was failing to deliver because I wasn't getting clear instructions or instructions that, like, I could work within. And so then I constantly in the workplace felt like I was doing something wrong. And that just, like, furthered my fear of of being the one who does something wrong.

And then often my reaction would be to get defensive. And then I developed a lot of habits in the workplace of just being like difficult, which like a lot of times I was difficult because people were also not doing what they needed to do. And a lot of times, let's be honest, when women are quoted as "difficult" in the workplace, it actually just means that they're straightforward. But I also would just get defensive because I didn't know how else to say like, I f***ed this up because you didn't give me clear enough instructions. And so that's been something I definitely had to learn now in my 30s.

Eleni: Well, that's the point of this podcast. Maybe people could learn from you instead of making, you know, but sometimes you have to make your own mistakes and learn along the way.

Hanna: Oh, 100 percent. And you know the A-number-one lesson I've learned as a writer is, and I've told younger writers this many times, one of the hardest things that you will learn is knowing when to go to bat for your own ideas and when to take edits, right? So like I just published a big, long piece in Seattle Met magazine about like sex work and history and historians and, like, the male gaze within history. But I, in doing that, you know, I was working with an editor who I love, who I love to work with. And I was — I sort of noticed how in all my time writing, I'd gotten really good at, you know, she would suggest an edit on something or suggest a different word. And I would say, no, you know what that one I like better the way I had it. And then other edits to be like, oh, yeah, she's right. That's a great edit. Yes.

So you often have to decide like what of yours to stand up for. And I think that that's true in the working economy across the board, is knowing what things — like what hills do you want to die on? What are your precious babies that you want to keep forever in an article or in a report or whatever? And what are things that someone else actually is absolutely right to strike? And I think being able to navigate that world is so hard to do when you're younger. But once you start to get older, you're like, oh yeah, there's some things where you're just like, yep, that's — you're right. You do it. You did it right. That's fine. And so I think that that's like a much bigger, like sort of lesson of writing is just knowing, like when to really stay strong in your own ideas and when to accept help and critique.

Eleni: I think that's great advice. Well, thanks, Hanna, for sharing your story.

Hanna: Yeah, absolutely.

Eleni: You've been listening to "How'd You Get THAT Job?!" from the Understood Podcast Network. The show is for you. So we want to make sure you're getting what you need. Email us at thatjob@understood.org with your thoughts about the show. Or maybe you'd like to tell us how you got THAT job. I'd love to hear from you.

If you want to learn more about the topics we covered today, check out the show notes for this episode. We include more resources as well as links to anything we mentioned in the episode. Understood.org is a resource dedicated to helping people who learn and think differently discover their potential and thrive. Learn more at understood.org/mission.

"How'd You Get THAT Job?!" is produced by Grace Tatter. Briana Berry is our production director. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Margie DeSantis provides editorial support. For the Understood Podcast Network, Laura Key is our editorial director, Scott Cocchiere is our creative director, and Seth Melnick is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Eleni Matheou. Thanks again for listening.

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