Debbie Reber on homeschooling a neurodivergent kid

Debbie Reber tried everything to make traditional schools work for her neurodivergent kid. Three schools. An IEP. Therapists. OTs. Educational consultants. But homeschooling? That was a hard pass. 

Then her husband got a job offer on another continent and her options got very small, very fast. What followed was six years she never planned for — and wouldn’t trade for anything.

• Listen: Full-Tilt Parenting (Debbie’s podcast)

• Read: Homeschooling kids who learn and think differently

• Watch: The myth of work-life balance with a neurodivergent child

Debbie Reber: I think I had known for several years that really this was the best thing for my child — at least for the time being — was homeschooling, just because of the way my kid experiences the classroom dynamic and everything that's — the demands and expectations of a traditional school. It was always going to be hard. I just wasn't ready to accept that that was my fate.

Jessica Shaw: Has anyone ever said to you, "You should homeschool your kid," and you thought, "Um, what?" That happened to my guest today, Debbie Reber. And when another parent told her that, she thought, "Yeah, that's a hard pass."

So, her kid went to three schools between kindergarten and second grade, got lots of services. Some things went well, others didn't. There were calls, complaints, frustrations, and victories. Then something happened that, as she says, forced her hand.

So, Debbie's husband got a job offer in the Netherlands. It was already stressful moving across the world, which her kid wasn't so happy about. And the idea of finding the right school there and starting over in another language no less, Debbie's hard pass took a hard turn. This is "Everyone Gets a Juice Box." I'm Jessica Shaw, and this is Debbie's story.

Debbie: We spent a year and a half in a private school for gifted kids. And the first half of that experience, we kept being told, "We've got it. We get these kids. These are complex kids. This is what we do." And my advice or input wasn't really appreciated.

And so when that crashed and burned halfway through first grade, we moved to another very small private school where my child was very supported and appreciated and loved, and was super disruptive in that environment, and it was just taking too much teacher time.

So, by second grade, we moved into public school. And part of my thinking was, well, they can't kick my child out of public school. They have to meet my kid's needs. And then we had an IEP and so I — it was a magnet gifted program full-time within the public school system. So, if anything was going to work, I felt like this had the best shot.

Jessica: And then at what point did you realize, no, that best shot is not a possible shot?

Debbie: The whole year was challenging. The teacher was great and the principal was super cool — my kid spent a lot of time in the principal's office, and they became very close friends. And so, you know, there was the support there.

But the speech language pathologist and the OTs and other people who were pulling my kid out for services and things, I got a lot of feedback that it was continuing to be challenging and there was a lot of social stuff and just so much dysregulation. And that seemed to be increasing.

(04:53) A handwriting assignment that highlighted struggles in a traditional classroom.

Jessica: Was there a particularly horrible moment that sticks out in your mind of like, something had to change?

Debbie: Yeah, I mean, at the first school, there were a lot of phone calls. And it usually came because of, you know, my child getting dysregulated in the classroom. And the one day that comes to mind when you said that is, you know, there was a handwriting assignment.

I learned about this after the fact when I was brought in for what felt like an intervention, frankly. But I — you know, there was an assignment, you know, when you're writing in a big piece of paper, letters. And they were supposed to be very — your name, but you were supposed to write it in very block letters, very clean.

And my child took creative license and made these really cool letters that had like curly cues on the end of every line and stuff. I thought it looked really awesome. This spirally font. And side note, my kid got really interested in typography later, but, you know, that's another story.

But in the moment, that wasn't the way you did things. And this was a classroom full of very kind of, you know, rule followers, I guess you could say. Like, by the book, "You're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong." And so my child getting that message pushed back.

"No, I'm just doing this." And, "No, you're doing it wrong." And that was enough — this kid with rejection sensitive dysphoria and feeling that intensity — got incredibly dysregulated. I think kind of kicked a chair over and stormed out of the room.

And those kinds of big behaviors, they're scary for people. They make other kids uncomfortable. They certainly make teachers uncomfortable. And if I could just bring in something that Dr. Ross Greene says, he says that there are unlucky kids whose responses to unsolved problems or when they're challenged don't get seen or viewed with empathy, right?

If my child had crumbled to the ground in tears because of that criticism, it would have been a total different story. But because it was a big physical, angry reaction, that's an unlucky kid, right, who then is a problem — a behavioral problem.

And so that incident, I think, was kind of what really — it was like, okay, we need to call this mother in. And I did come in for a meeting, and I thought I was going in — I wrote about this too — I thought I was going in for like a problem-solving meeting. Like, "How are we going to support this child?"

And instead every teacher — art teacher, music teacher, Spanish teacher — they all went around and like had a list of offenses my child had done in each class. That was the moment I was like, "Okay, my child is not safe here and we need to get out of here."

Overall, I constantly felt as if my child was this aberration. Like, everyone else is kind of getting through, but my kid is so extreme with behavior or intensity or whatever, that it was just not a good fit. And yes, it was super frustrating because I was running out of options.

I was trying to do all the right things and meet with the right people and bring in an educational consultant and, you know, we were doing therapy and OT, and I had a parent coach. I was like, "There's got to be a way to get through this system."

But I saw kind of our family not doing well overall, and I definitely saw my child becoming just more and more dysregulated. Like, we were not moving in the right direction.

Ultimately, I'll say, a friend had suggested we homeschool for several years and I was super not interested. I was like, "No, that's okay. I'm going to figure something else out." But by the end of that year, we had kind of a life disruption that kind of forced my hand.

It started with a job offer that my husband got to transfer us from Seattle to the Netherlands. And we thought it was a short term thing and I'd never even been to the Netherlands. But we were so kind of burned out by that point. So, part of it was like, "Well, we got nothing to lose, let's take this leap of faith."

I will say that I spent some time trying to find a school here until a friend kindly said to me, "Debbie, if you can't find a fit in Seattle, you're not going to find like the perfect fit in Amsterdam." And she was right, but I did pursue that because I still wasn't quite ready to basically say, "Okay, I'll just push pause on my career and dive into spending all day every day with this kid who was very dysregulated a lot of the time and would dysregulate me as a result."

(10:21) The balance between professional identity and the demands of homeschooling.

Jessica: Yeah, and not to mention doing it in another country where there's another language and there's just the dysregulation of moving across the world.

Debbie: Yeah, and our kid had just turned nine and was super unhappy about the decision. We didn't consult my child before we said, "We're moving to another country." So, that was hard. But also homeschooling here is really not a widely accepted thing to do.

I knew that going in, that there was no guarantee we would get approval to do it. I knew there wasn't a big thriving homeschooling community here. And so that added in an additional layer of kind of overwhelm about the whole process.

Jessica: At this point, you've decided to go to the Netherlands. Your kid is like, "I don't want to do this," and it's like, "Dad got a job. We're going." And it's going to be rough for all of us to an extent, but we're going to figure it out. And at that point, had you already been looking into homeschooling in Seattle and you just ditched that application or that process?

Debbie: The same friend who had been encouraging me for a couple of years to homeschool had provided a nice folder for me of how to homeschool and resources. And because of my own executive function challenges and just complete sheer shutdown at the thought of figuring out, "I don't know how to do any of this. I don't know what paperwork I need."

There were so many things that I just — my brain couldn't even compute — I don't even know what to do here. So, I had that information and I'd kind of flipped through it. But then I would just set it aside, I'm like, "Nope, I'm going to figure something else out."

So, it was really the move here that I was like, "Okay, let's just do all the changes at once and try to make this work."

Jessica: The idea of having a huge packet when you're not a teacher, you're a parent, and — I don't know — can we just say it out loud that sometimes when we kiss our kid and they go off to school, there's a little bit of a "ah," you know?

Debbie: Oh, a thousand percent. Yeah. I mean, I got a lot of phone calls, you know, as soon as I dropped my kid off and I'd sit down again and crack open my — at the time I would drink a Diet Coke in the morning instead of a coffee. And I'd sit down to work and the phone would ring.

I'm like, "No, I just dropped this kid off." So, that was scary to me. I'm an introvert. I really like being alone. I love kind of having my space. And so that was a whole other thing that just stressed me out was, "How I'm going to maintain my own sanity, my own regulation, when I'm spending all of this time with a kid who doesn't really want to be homeschooling in the first place."

And again, at nine, really didn't have any emotional regulation skills. So, they were relying on me, which wasn't the best plan.

Jessica: Do you remember the moment for you where you went from "hell no" to "okay, this is my future"?

Debbie: Yeah, it was because we were having sushi when I made the decision. It was with this same friend. It was so clear. I think I had known for several years that really this was the best thing for my child — at least for the time being — was homeschooling.

I knew based on past experiences that just because of the way my kid experiences the classroom dynamic and everything that's the demands and expectations of a traditional school, that it was always going to be hard. I just wasn't ready to accept that that was my fate.

The word selfish popped into my mind. I don't know if it's selfishness, but I really have worked hard for the career that I had built to that point of time. And again, I liked my time alone and I'm a very — I have my routines and I like to be able to run at a certain time and I like to be able to do all the things.

And so I think I was not admitting to myself what I knew to be true for several years. And it was over that lunch over sushi — Kikisaku Sushi in Seattle — and I just kind of surrendered to the idea.

And it was a relief in some ways, because I had been fighting it for so long to finally be like, "Okay, yeah, we're going to do this." Once I made that decision, because I am a problem solver, I was like, "Okay, I'm going now I'm going to figure this out." So, it almost became my new project, my new special interest if you will. So, I just kind of made a hard pivot at that point.

Jessica: I just want to say, because I feel like every parent listening is thinking that — that's not selfish. Just to go back to what you were saying. It's not selfish to want to be able to run. It's not selfish to want to have your career. It's not selfish to say, "I want some alone time."

It's being human. And also the fact is very often when it's like someone's career's got to go bye-bye, it's very often the woman's career who's, you know — and there's frustration in that too.

Debbie: Well, I appreciate that. And I believe that to be true, but mostly for other people. So, like when it comes to me, you know, I had these expectations of myself that I should be able to do it all or it shouldn't be so hard for me to make this pivot if I was really a good parent, right? So, I had to kind of grapple with all that stuff.

Jessica: So, were you able to sort of squash the other feelings or did you have an outlet to be able to say, "Okay, I am problem solving and I got to deal with my —  whatever it was — sadness, frustration, anger, resentment, all the above?”

Debbie: I don't think I allowed myself any space to deal with those emotions for a while because suddenly I was packing up and selling a house, which was terrifying. Like, we were just like, "Okay, let's just go to this country we've never visited before and start a new life."

And I was very much trying to — I was stressed about whether or not we'd get approval. Because there was no guarantee that we would be approved for homeschooling once we got here. So, that took up a lot of my time. So, I didn't really give myself any space to process what was really going on until probably — well, soon after we started homeschooling.

And it wasn't great. I'll just say like the homeschooling those first few months were really pretty brutal because my husband would leave in the morning to go to his nice office, you know, on the water, on the canal. And I was like — we were in this temporary little apartment and I was so concerned about the neighbors hearing my kid's meltdowns and oh, gosh.

It was just — it felt so chaotic, the energy in that place. And I was so frustrated and I'm like, "I'm sacrificing so much to be homeschooling this kid." And my child did not want to be there, hated the Netherlands — there was so much going on. It just was a big mess. And I think I was in chronic fight or flight mode for several months.

(17:50) Finding joy in homeschooling through experiential learning

Jessica: So, you had prepared with this and you have this friend back in Seattle who sort of gives you the Bible a little bit to how to do this. Tell me what that looks like.

Debbie: Well, it looked like me having a plan because planning was my way of trying to control, right? And if I could control how my child was doing, control my own anxiety that I wasn't going to be good at this, you know, control the feedback from all the naysayers who thought, you know, this was a crazy thing we were doing.

And then feeling this great responsibility for my child's education, right? Because I have this precocious, brilliant little human being and now I'm in charge, right? So, I had plans and schedules.

And then I have a demand avoidant child who I was just starting to really understand. Because I hadn't seen up close and personal what trying to teach this kid looked like. So, I was like, "Oh, like, I remember — I'm starting to understand how this could have been really challenging in a classroom."

But in the day-to-day, it was a lot like starting off on a good note. And then I make a suggestion and the suggestion would be met with — would be rejected or dysregulation.

Jessica: A suggestion like "We're doing math now," kind of thing?

Debbie: Yeah, or and I tried even make it more fun. Like, I wasn't just like, "It's math time." I was like, I had games. Like, I was really — I felt like I was overperforming at this homeschool thing. I was providing an array of interesting activities and "We can walk to the playground on the pier and get a croissant."

Like, "This is a great school," right? But sometimes it doesn't matter what the demand is. If my child was like shut down, that was not happening. And then it would be digging in, right? And then going on the iPad or doing Minecraft, and then I'd be like seething in the other room.

In my mind, "You're failing at this, you're screwing up, you can't — " you know, all of these things. And so then because I was escalated, I didn't know at the time the power of taking those breaths and getting my own nervous system calm before I engage with my child.

So, I would then engage with my child and essentially be pouring gasoline on the fire. And then it would just go from there. And I remember this one day where I went in literally — I was like, "You need to do your coping strategies!" Like, I was yelling at my child to do coping strategies.

And in my mind, I'm like, "What are you doing? Like, this is ridiculous." And I left the room in that moment. And when I came in and apologized, my kid was like, "Well, why don't we do this — " it was like a — like a calming meditation CD that the therapist in Seattle had sent. I didn't even know had given to my child before we left.

And so we lay on the ground and we did this meditation together. And then my kid said, "I think you need a Diet Coke." And I was like, "I think that I do." But it was a very sweet moment, but, you know, hearing myself yelling at my child to engage in coping strategies, and I was like, "Oh, I am so the one who needs the coping strategies." That was a real moment for me that I'll never forget.

Jessica: So, you mentioned that the first few months were challenging and you're getting used to it. Did you ever feel like giving up? I hear that you're kind of a problem solver where you're like, "I will get this."

Debbie: Yeah, I'll just share that I just stumbled upon a video on my hard drive that I used to — I'd forgotten that I even did this. But I used to send these video confessionals, like an MTV, you know, like a reality show, to my friend back in Seattle.

And I found one of these recently and I'm like in this dark bedroom, you know, and I'm like, "Oh, today was a terrible day." And I'm just like — and I was like, "Oh, my gosh." It really transported me back there. So, during that period of time, I definitely felt like, "I don't know if I can do this."

I mean, I was super unhappy. I was feeling overwhelmed. It was hard. I felt like I couldn't enjoy the fact that we were living in this beautiful place and I wanted to explore and I wanted to, you know, really dive in. And I couldn't do that. I felt almost like a prisoner in my home, you know?

And sometimes I couldn't get this kid to go outside. And then my husband's out biking to work. And I was like, "Well, this is not cool." So, those first few months were pretty rough. And I can tell you about the moment where things kind of shifted for me.

I mean, it wasn't like one moment, but I started working with a parent coach who was really helping me kind of realize how hard I was being on myself and how I was demanding me to crush it, right? I was demanding that I do this perfectly and it had to go well and I should be able to do this and feel really calm at the same time.

And this parent coach was like, "Why?" Like, she really challenged all of those beliefs that I had and validated what I was doing and kind of helped me see how much I was mourning the loss of my identity.

As, you know, I used to write books for teenage girls and was really invested in kind of the girl empowerment self-worth movement, that was my job. So, I had to kind of acknowledge, "Yeah, I miss this piece of me. I miss this part of my life. I miss my friends."

And I started realizing that even though I was on paper showing up for school every day and I was ticking all the boxes, I was not actually there mentally or emotionally at all. I was really — which was making me frustrated when we went off course.

I was like, "No, we have to get through this stuff because I want to get on with my life." And so I started recognizing when I felt more urgent about things, it was because I had an agenda. And I started realizing that when I have any agenda of any sort, that's not going to work for my kid.

So, I just said, "You know what, I'm going to throw out the agenda. I'll have guidelines, but I'm going to try to show up differently for school and see what happens." And it was a really conscious decision I made.

Jessica: Was your kid able to say or did they ever say it, "Oh, this is — I'm learning"?

Debbie: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think when I made that decision, I had a meeting — we always started our school day with a meeting — and we'd watch cool video, like we had a whole bunch of stuff we did. But I did declare to my child, "I'm making — I'm going to do things differently from now on and from now on this is our school and we don't have to follow anybody's rules but our own. Like, what's the point of homeschooling if we can't make it work for us?"

And that was exciting for my kid. That really started to shift the whole tone of our dynamic and what the day felt like day-to-day, and it started to be more fun. I remember saying, like, "This is pretty cool. What do you think about our homeschool? Is this working for you?" And my child would say, "Yeah, I love it. It's great."

Jessica: Tell me your single favorite lesson that you did.

Debbie: Oh, my goodness, my single favorite lesson. Well, we spent an entire year studying World War I because we live in Europe. And we had access to so many things. So, that was — I was not a good student, I'll just say that for everybody. I was like a terrible student, actually. Kind of a solid C-minus student. I really didn't like school. It was something to get through and I didn't really learn a ton.

So, homeschooling gave me a chance to be like, "Oh, learning is really cool. History is fascinating." And so the year that we spent really diving into World War I and then we went to Belgium and we got to see trenches and do all the things.

I was like, "This is amazing." It was so experiential and rather than like "Write a paper" or whatever, my kid decided to make kind of like cartoon — like one-panel cartoons on different like scenes from World War I.

We posted them all over our apartment and we invited some of our friends to come over and I made cookies and we had kind of like a day. So, that was like a whole year that was just really fun to get caught up in history and feeling it all.

Jessica: And at that point are you able to say, "Yeah, Debbie, you're freaking killing this"?

Debbie: I kind of was. Like, I think within a couple of years, I definitely started to shift, not started to shift, I shifted from being that very reluctant homeschooler to white knuckling through it, to feeling like this is such an honor that I get to spend every day with this human.

(24:19) Reflecting on the deep relationship forged during six years of homeschooling.

Debbie: Like, I felt that way the last couple years. I was like, "This is magic time that so many parents don't get to experience." I remember in the mornings we would do this thing called the Miracle Morning, which is some routines you do — affirmations, listening to music, a visualization, a meditation, and a little movement.

And we started our day like that every day for a while. But it always started with my kid coming into bed with me and we would turn on like an Enya song and we would like visualize while we're listening to this music.

And then we would just lay under the covers and be like, "Ah, those suckers out there biking in sleet and hail. We are so lucky that we don't have to leave the house right now." And so we had all these just kind of like, "This is our little thing that we're doing together." And once we both really got into it, yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Jessica: You homeschooled for six years. What was the point where you thought, "Okay, our time homeschooling has come to an end"? And then what was the next step?

Debbie: Yeah, so I think it was around seventh grade. You know, we were still kind of keeping traditional grades in terms of, yeah, just in our — because we didn't know what the future held, right? And math was getting more complicated for me.

I handed that off to my husband. Of course, I told my husband, I'm like, "I'm doing a conversation about homeschooling." He's like, "Don't forget to say that I did math for a year and a half." I'm like, "Okay, we'll give you credit for your math."

You know, I had an art teacher come in and a Dutch teacher and, you know, I was cobbling together these experiences, a lot of online stuff. But because my child is an advanced learner and self — studied so much stuff and was reading, you know, university texts about things that I couldn't comprehend, I was like, "I don't know how long this is going to work," you know?

I started realizing we might be maxing out. And then thinking about what does this look like — my child wanted to go to university, we knew that was a goal. And I started feeling like, "I don't know if my child will be prepared if we continue here, at least in the Netherlands."

So, that was towards the end of seventh grade. And about that time, my husband got a job opportunity to move us to New York where we had lived, you know, in the past. And so kind of timing all, we're like, "Okay, I think it's time."

I was — it was a sad and hard thing to do. But we moved back. I homeschooled for the rest of that year of eighth grade, still kind of cobbling it together. But then ninth grade, my kid went back to a — I wouldn't say it was a traditional school, but went back into a formal educational environment.

Jessica: How did it feel when once again you're saying, "Okay, bye. Have a good day," after you immersed yourself in this world for six years?

Debbie: I mean, honestly, I was pretty psyched. I was — I mean, I was sad, you know. We would go on long walks by this point and we'd go get a coffee and we'd talk about politics. Like, we had really nice routines.

But I was also ready to have a little bit more space. And I wanted that for my child too. I wanted more opportunity. I wanted the social connection and all that stuff. So, I was pretty happy about that. Of course, COVID hit like, you know, six months later. So, my solo time, you know, went away. But those couple of months were pretty nice.

Jessica: The world was like — the universe was like, "You know what, Debbie? Back to homeschooling for you, my friend."

Debbie: Totally. Yeah, I wasn't happy about that.

Jessica: As you look back on those six years of your life, what comes to mind?

Debbie: Yeah, I mean, honestly, as you ask that question, I get a little emotional. My kid is in university right now in Scotland. And so I miss that connection terribly. Like, it's really — because we became so close.

So, when I think back on that time, I — again, it was such an honor to be in deep relationship with this person and the trust and safety that we built through our connection together. I think that was foundational to how we relate to each other now.

Yeah, I really feel grateful that I had that opportunity. And it makes it hard now with my kid not at home anymore, for sure. It was such a special time, almost magical. Didn't always feel magical in the moment, but I have a lot of photographic evidence of just how magical it was. Of like the bike rides through parks or swinging on hammocks and talking about philosophy. Like, we were able to do this kind of stuff because I made space for it. And yeah, I'm really grateful that I got to do it.

Jessica: I want to express my gratitude to Debbie Reber, because there was a moment in our conversation that really stayed with me. She was talking about looking back at her homeschooling time with her kid and how it didn't always feel magical — her word — but she can see that it actually was and has pictures — bike rides, swinging in hammocks — to remind her.

And I thought, "I'm going to take that one to heart." There are so many times as parents we're in proactive mode — schedule this appointment, make sure that teacher is aware, put this therapy in place, lean into this, lean out of that.

And I can speak for myself and say there have been times as a parent where I didn't necessarily find the magic in moments that were messy and challenging and confidence — shaking. I may not have photographic proof, but I'm guessing it was there. And I love that another parent just reminded me of that. See you next time.

Thanks for listening to "Everyone Gets a Juice Box." Our show is hosted by me, Jessica Shaw. It's produced by Cody Nelson, and video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Jessie DiMartino.

Briana Berry is our production director, and Neil Drumming is our editorial director. If you have any questions for us or ideas for future episodes, write me an email or send a voice memo to podcast@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.