Moving past performative inclusion (Conversations from Davos)

Nat Lyckowski is the Global Neurodiversity Advancement Leader at IBM, where she is helping redefine how organizations build environments where different minds drive measurable results. Through authenticity, data, and intentional design, she is paving the way for business leaders to move beyond awareness and into action.

In this episode, Maureen Dunne and Nat explore how companies can move past performative inclusion and make practical, low cost cultural shifts that create meaningful change for neurodivergent employees.

The business case is clear. Representation, mentorship, and inclusive infrastructure are not just values. They are scalable drivers of innovation, performance, and long term growth.

Maureen Dunne: Welcome to "Conversations from Davos", a special season of "Minds at Work" brought to you by Understood.org and the Davos Neurodiversity Summit. Here, we're unpacking the most important themes from this year's summit.

I'm Maureen Dunne. I'm a cognitive scientist, an author, and the founder of the Davos Neurodiversity Summit. Today, I'm so happy to have Natalia Lyckowski joining us. Nat is the global neurodiversity advancement leader for IBM.

In that role, she works to design spaces where neurodivergent talent can thrive and helps build neuro-inclusive education and accessibility tools. She also partners with HR, talent acquisition, and communications to ensure that initiatives reflect the input of the neurodivergent community.

And she's also a proud neurodivergent advocate and leader and is known to speak with wonderful clarity and openness about how we can build more neuro-inclusive workplaces. Nat, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. I've really been looking forward to it.

Natalia Lyckowski: Thank you so much, Maureen. It's an honor to be here.

Maureen: You know, I know that you've spent more than 30 years in project management and from what I understand, about 15 years ago you stepped into neurodiversity advancement as well. And so I'm curious, what were you seeing in your day-to-day work that made you feel that this was an area where you could really make a difference?

Natalia: I think what happened about 15 years ago is that a lot of companies started to look at neurodiversity as part of culture and inclusion. And with influences such as the United Nations coming together to form initiatives, trying to see what we can do to foster the neurodivergence that were already in the companies and letting neurodivergents know that companies are neurodivergent-friendly.

It really just began growing from there. It started from a BRG, or business resource group, that was really focusing on parents and caregivers and then grew to picking up the voices of the neurodivergents that were there already and really trying to build in on that motto of "nothing about us without us." And allies are huge and important, but from any community, you need that voice, that sense of representation.

Maureen: Absolutely. And so with that, we've both been in this space for a long time and it seems like a lot of companies sometimes still think of neuro-inclusion almost as like this just purely an HR initiative. Like, let's check that box. And I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about how you think about it. You know, how do we make progress?

Natalia: Absolutely. Everything, you know, can be said that, you know, we do it in the name of corporate citizenship. But what matters is the real work. Right? If you look at studies that have been done focusing on neurodivergent individuals, there are definite skills that could be brought to the workplace.

Things like innovation, loyalty, problem-solving, building a more empathetic team. When you have everybody thinking the same way, you're going to get the same results. So if you bring in people that come at problems from different perspectives, you're instantly going to get new ideas which can lead to innovation, more patents, and things that we could do together instead of just from a single point of view.

Maureen: I couldn't agree more. And I think that distinction really matters and it separates, I think, what I at least for me, what I would call performative inclusion from real inclusion. And I guess with that, I, you know, I think it's important like if we can try to make this a little bit more concrete. When you talk about advancing neurodiversity, what does that look like in practice?

Natalia: We can look at accommodations that could be made to the workplace as a success enabler. Right? And asking the question, "How can I help you succeed?" And asking that question to everyone.

And it might be as simple as, "I work better if I'm not sitting by the elevator," right, where there's a lot of commotion going on. Or somebody may want to sit there because they feed off of all of that energy. But by simply asking these questions and having built a space where people feel comfortable answering that question. So I think there's two sides of it, right? We have to build the culture where it's okay to ask and it's okay to answer.

And by doing that, you can fill gaps that you may not have even realized you had in your process, in your team, and unlock what might not have been there already.

Maureen: That's such an important start to, you know, moving in the right direction. And you know, nothing changes overnight, as we know, but at the same time, this is the kind of process I think where systems at least start to quietly evolve.

Natalia: I think it's a process where, you know, you have a community of neurodivergents that you're now building — like building a safe space, building psychological safety. All of those things that can be buzzwords, but in practice they really do mean a lot.

And a lot of things that you can do to make a team more neurodivergent-friendly really hits universal design. You know, whether it's physical or social, easy lifts. And many of these things are low-cost or no-cost, right, just simply saying, "How can I help?"

(07:56) Implementing neuro-inclusive practices and communication styles at a global scale.

Maureen: M-hmm. And that's a great point, something I was really wanting to ask you about because I know there may be a lot of listeners who don't have a lot of expertise in this space and one of the questions they may have is, as an organization or as a CEO, where can I start, right, for my company or my organization? And if you have some advice of like, what are some of the easiest, lowest-cost shifts that could make a real difference? I think that could be very impactful to especially the leaders that are listening.

Natalia: I would say just start the conversation. Right? You might be afraid you're going to say the wrong thing. As long as you start that conversation with a sense of empathy and a sense of what I like to call servant leadership, right, but to start that conversation.

And being open to, you know, having that radical candor to understand that, you know, all feedback is a gift. And then see those things acted upon. You know, asking what your nickname is, or are you a morning person or an evening person? Lining up how best you work.

And that might be different for you and I. You might be the night person and it'll be like, "Great, you take the call at 6:00 p.m. and I'll take the 6:00 a.m. call and we'll compare notes later in the day." And putting those skills to work in an environment that you're going to best succeed in.

Maureen: So it sounds like what you're talking about here is really this mind shift that is also super important.

Natalia: Absolutely. And so much of this can be done at a global scale. Right? Like having an agenda at a meeting, so we all know, you know, what we're going to do. Part of those social contracts: "We're all going to raise our hand when we have a question."

Or knowing that it's okay to stop me mid-presentation to ask a question. Or if you're not comfortable speaking up during the meeting, if you have a question after, I'm inviting you to drop that question into an email. So you have all of these different avenues so nobody feels that they have to speak up at that time.

Or, you know, we hit all of these things with different cultural differences. M-hmm. How you act in a meeting is going to be different depending on where you are in the world, and who's in the room, and what neurotypes are in the room. And being respectful of that sense of, you know, that cultural sensitivity or that CQ, right? We have IQ and EQ — CQ is the cultural, but then also adding an NQ, right, the neurodiversity education and acceptance of that.

And that it's a real thing, right? And being able to name some of these microaggressions that you might see, like, "Oh, that person might be rude." Well, they might be neurodivergent or they might be from a different culture.

Maureen: And you know, just to elaborate on that, in a lot of cases, sometimes you have even well-intentioned managers that just don't have the training or the the understanding and understand these style differences. And it it maybe could make this huge difference, right, just to have more of a process in place where there are ways in which, you know, people across neurotypes are interacting more regularly, or there's more training and there's more of an understanding of, you know, there there may be a style difference, right, in communication.

I mean, it seems like there's just a lot of work we can all do together to just work more collaboratively and, you know, to the best interest of everyone, right? You know, it's not just about empathy, then it's about building an infrastructure that is really going to maximize what every individual can do in an organization across neurotypes. You know, I think that kind of also fits in with a lot of the work you've been doing.

Natalia: Yeah, it's not — it's not easy to collaborate across neurotypes. And some of it is just having the courage to stop and ask, right, "Is this working? Let's stop and have a debrief. How could we work better?" And when you're asking your team that, number one, you have to be willing to hear some feedback. Right. But to also put that into practice. To admit that your way may not be the best way, or may not be the best way for that particular goal. Right. You have to be willing to try and you have to be willing to fail and do it again.

(11:15) IBM resources designed to empower neurodivergent individuals and ensure digital accessibility

Maureen: I guess following up on that, something I think about a lot is the difference between simply accommodating people and then actually designing systems for and also with neurodivergent people. And I know there's a lot of resources that center neurodivergent users. I don't know if you could talk just more generally about some resources that could be really helpful to people that you're familiar with. I know one of them might be the SkillsBuild toolkit, what that is and how that might be helpful for people that are listening.

Natalia: Absolutely. Sometimes in getting access to training or access to education if you are from an underrepresented group. Right? You're a neurodivergent individual and you want to learn about cybersecurity, but maybe you don't have the social skills yet or the opportunity to go some place to get this training.

SkillsBuild is a platform hosted by IBM where anybody with an internet connection can go get training on IT skills for free and get certifications for free. So you can build up that resume and build up that experience. And these are skills that are marketable today, you know, cybersecurity and cloud and AI and all of these things that will be, you know, fueling the jobs of the future. So having the SkillsBuild platform available and it's all self-paced and, you know, you can control your own environment of where you're doing the learning, can help not only neurodivergents but really anybody who is blocked in some way to get those skills.

Maureen: I mean, that's wonderful. It's not just about access, right, but I think reinforces this sense of agency, right, which is so important for neurodivergent people. And that kind of shifts power in a way because it creates this inclusive architecture, right? So it's access but it's also encouraging this sense of self-advocacy and agency.

Natalia: Absolutely. Another free resource that I want to mention is the Equal Access Toolkit. And that's actually a toolkit for developers. So people who are developing an app so they can check their code to make sure it has accessibility features built in as they are designing it.

Right. You don't want to build a whole app and then find out, "Oh, I forgot about alt text for people who may be vision impaired," or, "I forgot about having it be able to be read by a screen reader." To build those accessibility factors into the design and not have it be a retrofit at the end that might cost more effort. And that really goes back to thinking about neurodiversity as a whole, right? We want to build an inclusive process so it's not a retrofit at the end.

Maureen: Right. And also just how do we design systems that people can access at scale. It sounds like that's a really good example. Right. And so I guess another question I really would love to talk to you about is obviously AI has been a topic of conversation at Davos and, you know, at our summit and pretty much every corporation and organization around the world, I'm sure you know where you work as well.

And just curious on your personal perspective, I mean, these tools, you know, they show the promise of AI when it's built intentionally, it would appear. But then there's also, you know, some risks, right? You know, when AI is designed without, say, neurodivergent input.

You've probably seen quite a lot in your leadership role where there's that promise and there's some really good things, but perhaps maybe I'm guessing some concerns as well. So I'm just curious what your perspective is on that.

Natalia: I'm totally geeking out on AI. Okay. And I personally have used AI to make meeting minutes or, you know, a lot of productivity tools and enhancements, you know, automatic reminders or, you know, how we can organize our teams and have AI be an assistant or be part of the team, you know, that agentic piece of it.

But there definitely is a balance. Right? When we're training our AI, in many cases, you look at your data to train it and if there's data points that fall out of the norm, they're called outliers or edge cases. And frequently to train your AI, those are removed. Right.

But by removing those edge cases or removing those outliers, you might be removing something that affects a community. Right? The neurodivergents might be outliers, or people who use wheelchairs might be an outlier. You know, so when we train our self-driving cars, or when we train our AI, they have to be fed information about the neurodivergent community or any community, right, that may be part of that outlier, to ensure they're factored in, to ensure your AI is not biased.

Maureen: Right. It can be a little scary at times, right? We think of, you know, what we've seen in the movies that, you know, project, you know, what AI could do. Right. But we have to ensure that that balance is there and have having more of these conversations about, you know, even understanding of different neurotypes, right, and and, you know, what does ethical design look like, right, in in action.

(17:41) Being a neurodivergent leader and the importance of visibility and mentorship

Maureen: One thing I wanted to bring up, I know Nat, we've been in neurodiversity spaces together for some years now and I know this work isn't abstract for either of us. And if you're comfortable to share about your own experience and how it's informed your leadership, would love to hear your thoughts and insights on that.

Natalia: Absolutely. So I grew up being labeled as weird or too shy or too chatty, or you can add whatever adjective. And it really it was not until my second year of college that a professor suggested that I might be neurodivergent.

Didn't use the term neurodivergent because it wasn't that popular then, but being able to have a name for what I was was like this, you know, AHA moment. And having that recognition of who I am. And having a name for it answered my question and the battle of depression, right, the battle of not knowing who you are, why don't you fit in, why don't you get the joke, you know.

But having that AHA moment was very powerful. And then I kind of stuffed that away in the closet because, okay, what am I going to do with this thing? Only to have it be able to blossom at the same time that the neurodiversity initiatives were popping up in a lot of companies.

And then, you know, finding your own people. And then seeing the skill in this. And also being able to look at the gaps in the skills of the neurodivergent community and being able to use my skills in a new way. And being able to step over those weaknesses and go, "Yeah, I'm not the greatest at this, but I'm really good at that."

Maureen: And that should be okay. Everybody's not nobody's great at everything, right? And you've been such a leader and have made such a positive impact and you've seen a lot. You know, what cultural shifts do you wish had been available maybe when you were just starting out?

Natalia: I think just hearing other people talk about neurodiversity out in the open would have been, you know, if we were talking about this, you know, 20, 30 years ago, where we would have been today. You know, how many people may have, you know, been in a different career or been in a different mindset to know that this is a thing, that you can be empowered to use what you've been born with, what skills you have to be able to hone them for you, for good, you know, for the planet.

The other thing that I would have loved and what I have now is seeing a push for mentorship, for people to not only be a mentor to others but ask for one, to reach out and build that network.

Maureen: Well, and and from my perspective, part of the challenge was there weren't as many of us neurodivergent leaders that were visible. And so now is maybe this amazing opportunity where younger people can reach out to many of us in the community and we can build that ecosystem.

Natalia: Yeah, if there's, you know, any young neurodivergents out there, just Google neurodivergent mentorship. Um, there's Next for Autism, there's Disability:IN, there's so many organizations that are working in this space to help individuals find mentors. And find roles, right? We have Mentra, we have, you know, the Neurodiversity at Work roundtables where companies who sometimes and in some places are competitors are now working together for this common goal to increase neurodiversity allyship and acceptanceship.

(22:08) The future of neurodiversity in the workplace and the impact of the summit.

Maureen: So you've been such a leader and have made such a positive impact. And I guess like if we're looking to like what's next now, where do you think this is still evolving? Um, you know, are there any other ideas you maybe would want to suggest of what's next?

Natalia: I think as far as what's next is to continue to reduce the stigma and reduce the fear. Um, to be able to share with somebody that you're neurodivergent as easily as I might share that I'm left-handed. And, "Could we switch seats because I don't want my hand to bump yours so we spill our drinks?"

Um, to have it be as accepted as, you know, as part of my identity, as part of being a woman, not something to be ashamed of. But to know that this can give me a perspective that I can share with others. But finding that courage is a hard thing.

Maureen: For sure. And, you know, I know for people, you know, younger in terms of career trajectory, right, it's harder, so they look to people like you and me and others involved in the Davos Neurodiversity Summit. I mean, that's part of what we're trying to achieve, right, is to show that there are all these amazing leaders around the world that are neurodivergent, that are leading effectively and are role models, right, for these younger generations and are unapologetic.

Natalia: I love working with youth. I've been a youth volunteer for many, many years. And I'm seeing this younger generation come up and proudly share that they are neurodivergent and proudly saying, "Hey, I'm an ADHDer and I am amazing at multitasking. If you need somebody to multitask, get an ADHDer." And saying it with such courage and conviction really excites me for what is coming.

And I've worked with, you know, children as young as six in this space, and they just get it. They're looking at the world with generally so much acceptance and building those skills, right, so they don't have to go through things that us older neurodivergents did of trying to, you know, fit that square peg into the round hole. And if they're not using their bandwidth to mask or try to deal with some of that sense of acceptance, then what else can they be doing?

Maureen: M-hmm. I guess, you know, I'm at least hopeful that um leaders like you and, you know, many of us joining forces at, you know, at the Davos Neurodiversity Summit that together anyway, we could make some meaningful difference that reflects a different era of leadership. And maybe putting a spotlight on where things are going and, you know, whether people like it or not, you know, we need different systems, right? We need to include all perspectives and kinds of minds. We need to, you know, embrace different models of leadership.

Natalia: Yeah, I like to — I like to think of myself maybe not as a leader, but more as a neurodivergent gardener. Okay. Right? We're all — we're all working in this space. What we're doing is, you know, we're trying to build that best fertile environment where that seed, you know, can grow.

And it might be doing the work to, you know, cut the branches back so more sunlight gets in, or shading a specific plant because they need more shade. Right? But doing that work to build that environment where hopefully everybody could thrive.

Maureen: Absolutely. And, you know, I just have to say I thank you so much for speaking with me today. I'm so delighted to have this conversation with you because I think it's just so important for people to see, you know, the amazing things people are doing around the world. And we're just getting started, right?

Natalia: We're just getting started. Very honored and blessed to be part of the conversation.

Maureen: You've been listening to "Conversations from Davos", a special season of "Minds at Work" hosted by Dr. Maureen Dunne and brought to you by Understood.org and the Davos Neurodiversity Summit. If you want to know more about our guest today, please check out the show notes.

For those looking for resources to better advocate for themselves and others at work, visit u.org/work. And to learn more about the summit and Dr. Maureen Dunne, visit DavosNeurodiversitySummit.com.

"Minds at Work" is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a non-profit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to support our work, please donate at understood.org/give.

This show is produced by Julie Subrin, Allison Hocklander, Max MacKenzie, and me, Nathan Friedman. The show is mixed by Justin D. Wright. Briana Berry is our production director and Laura Key is our executive director.

"Conversations from Davos" was produced in collaboration with the Davos Neurodiversity Summit. Each year alongside the World Economic Forum, leaders gather at DNS to explore how empathy and human-centered design can reshape work, education, and our key institutions. To support DNS 2027, go to DavosNeurodiversitySummit.com.

Please join us next time. We'll continue unpacking the most important themes from this year's summit to shape a more inclusive and creative future. And thank you so much for listening.