What makes a ‘good listener’ with ADHD?

People with ADHD can often get a bad rap for being “bad listeners.” So, instead of actually listening, we’re often focusing on: Am I making enough eye contact? Do I look engaged?

Host Cate Osborn chats with Understood.org Vice President of Expertise and licensed therapist Sarah Greenberg about the listening strengths and weaknesses that can come with ADHD. They also unpack different modes of listening like listening to understand, listening to solve, and listening to connect. 

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

Related resources

• How attention works

• From the ADHD Aha! podcast, “Why don’t you listen?” Paying attention vs. hearing (Peter’s story) 

Timestamps

(00:41) Feeling self-conscious about our ability to listen with ADHD

(05:56) Different modes of listening

(07:40) Figuring out our listening strengths and weaknesses

(14:32) Anecdotal communication

(16:48) Asking what a person needs out of a conversation

(21:47) What can we do?

Episode transcript

Cate: Hey everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This," the podcast where we talk about ADHD and all things communication, relationships, and intimacy. On this week's episode, we are talking about one of the most important building blocks of intimacy and communication and relationships, good listening skills. To have this discussion, we have brought in one of Understood.org's own experts, Sarah Greenberg, who is a therapist and an expert on all things listening.

(00:41) Feeling self-conscious about our ability to listen with ADHD

You are gonna hear me talk a lot about this in today's episode, but one of the things that I am most self-conscious about as a person with ADHD is my ability to listen. I get distracted. I get excited. I get impulsive. I sometimes even get nervous about "What should I say? Should I say this or should I that? Do I look like I'm paying attention? What if they think that I'm being rude? What if don't think I'm a good friend?" And I tend to get so in my head about listening that I forget to listen at all.

And as I've grown up and as I have navigated through my adult life with ADHD, I've seen that impact my relationships over and over and over. And so, when we were talking about episode ideas that really focus on the foundational building blocks of communication and intimacy, I had a lot of questions about listening. You know, I've been told my whole life that making eye contact is super important.

Asking questions back to the person is super important, but what about the people who- struggle like me with making eye contact? What about people who struggle with asking questions because they don't want to get distracted and don't want to take the conversation away from relevant topics? What do we do? How do we, as women with ADHD and the partners of people with ADHD, how do we be good listeners? What does good listening look like on us? How do we build those skills? How to we build relationships?

And so, that is why I'm so excited to introduce you to this conversation with Sarah Greenberg. We have an amazing conversation about listening. We go all over the map. But dear listener, I am so glad that you are here listening to me, listen to Sarah talking about listening. So, without further ado, here is the episode of Listenception that I just named it right now.

Well, hi, Sarah.

Sarah: Hi, Cate.

Cate: How are you doing?

Sarah: I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here. It's one of my favorite topics to talk about.

Cate: I'm just so happy to be talking to you about it, although I said this earlier, but I'm going to say it now so it's officially on the podcast, is that today we are talking about listening and vulnerability and friendship with ADHD. And I'm really nervous that I'm not going to be a good listener on the podcast about being a good listener. So, I just want to throw that out there right at the very beginning.

Sarah: Oh Cate, we're in it together. As a therapist, I'm sure I'm gonna completely botch listening. Be a terrible example at it. At least once. Probably not the whole time, but at least once.

Cate: Also, important announcement for our dear listeners, and also probably for you, Sarah. If I sound a little bit weird today, it's because I had oral surgery last week and I still have stitches in my mouth. And so, some vowel sounds I'm learning are much more painful than others. So, if you're listening at home going, "Why does Cate sound weird this week?" That's why. So, you know, just throwing that out there.

But hey, Sarah, so today we're talking about ADHD and listening. And I want to start off by saying that I feel that folks with ADHD get a little bit of a bad rap as, "Oh, folks with the ADHD are bad at listening," or we lack good friendship listening skills. But what do you think about that?

Sarah: So, it's interesting. I think like many things with ADHD, listening as a jagged profile, I think there's aspects of listening that someone with ADHD is typically way better at. So, for example, we were just talking about how in podcasts or like when in a conversation, it's really fun to follow the excitement, right? In a conversation. And I've never met people besides people with ADHD who can really do that, who can, you know, really, really volley in a conversation and kind of go in these unexpected tangents. I think people with ADHD are great at that.

People with ADHD are incredible at hyperfocusing. So, I've seen this a lot in myself and others, where you can get so intent on listening, it's literally as if the rest of the world disappears. And the only thing that exists is the person you're talking to. And that is such a wonderful feeling for everyone involved in the conversation. You may miss your bus, or you may miss the subway, but it's an absolutely incredible feeling.

So, I agree with you, Cate. I think people with ADHD get a bad rap. I think some of the habits that are harder, like consistently hearing everything that's said, sometimes others may notice those and pick up on it and say, "Uh, that person's hard to have a conversation with." But I don't believe that that's true. I think, in general, humans struggle with listening in the modern world. And I think everyone can get better at it.

Cate: There's so many weird opinions about what good listening looks like. And I know that I spend a lot of time, especially when I'm doing public-facing things, where internally, I'm not really listening to the conversation. What I'm actually doing is I'm going, "OK, are you making enough eye contact? Do you look engaged? Are you nodding enough? What does your face look like? Are you turning away? Are you turn towards? Don't cross your arms." And that gets really frustrating because it's, I want to engage and I want to be fully present, like what do we do? What do we Sarah? Just no follow-up. What do we do? Sarah, help.

(05:56) Different modes of listening

Sarah: First of all, there's different modes of listening, right? So, in many meetings at work, for example, I'll just say it, people are listening to talk, right, they're listening, thinking about what's the next brilliant point I'm going to make. And like, that's not a terrible thing, right? You want to sound professional, you want to sound great, but it's a different mode. Listening to understand, right, maybe you're learning a new concept, maybe you are really trying to understand someone else's perspective, right? That's a different mode of being. It feels different in your body and in your mind.

Listening to solve is another mode that I think, you know, many of us can get stuck in. And sometimes that's great. Like if I'm like, "Hey, Catie, right?" Like you just said, Sarah, help me with this, right? That's an appropriate time then to say something. But, you know, so often in relationships — Cate, I'm sure you hear this all the time, given the great conversations you have with others — when you're coming to someone with something or something difficult, and they immediately come back like, "Don't worry Catie, I got a three-step plan, we can fix this."

Cate: You're like, "No, it's OK."

Sarah: That could be a very good conversation. So, listening to understand, listening to solve, listening to connect is I think a whole different ball game. Those are the three main ones I encounter. But you brought up another one, the performative listening, when it's like, "OK, I need to look like a good listener" and I definitely feel that pressure sometimes, right? I don't know if you have that, but I'm a professional listener. If I can't listen and publicly show that I'm a good listener, that's a problem.

Cate: Yeah.

Sarah: I don't think anyone really likes to admit performative listening, but it's a thing.

(07:40) Figuring out our listening strengths and weaknesses

Cate: I'm wondering, like listening to these, probably people have different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to like, "I'm really good at listening to solve, but I'm not so great at listening to connect," how do we sort of like find out which ones we're inherently, I guess like better at and then which ones that maybe we could do a little bit better on?

Sarah: Yeah. OK, so here's a thought experiment. If you think of your friends, can you immediately think of someone who's good at all of those? Like if you have a problem to solve, you might go to this person. If you really want to be heard, you may go to that person.

Cate: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: We can probably think of like, "Oh yeah, this person is really the person like when I don't feel like being fixed," like there's times when you just feel awful and you don't want someone to say, "If you exercise more, you'd probably feel better," right? That's like the worst. But if you're going to someone really with something, a problem that you really want solved, it's a wonderful thing to have friends who are great problem solvers, or people in your life who are great problem-solvers, right?

But I don't know, like I think that how do we figure it out? Sometimes it just starts with asking yourself. So, I don' know, Cate, let's try it. Like, what do you think you're good at? And I'll go after you so you're not alone in this.

Cate: Do you want to know my honest answer, Sarah?

Sarah: Yeah.

Cate: Is that I don't think I'm a very good listener. It's something that I really struggle with. I would give myself like a C plus on most of them, but maybe I would give myself a B plus on like listening to understand, because I'm really curious about things, right? And I love sort of like navigating through different ideas and like, "Oh, like, how does this thing connect and that thing connect?" But the thing that I get really self-conscious about is that ADHD moment of like hyperfixation, because I've heard a lot in my life, "Oh, OK, you're being a little bit too much," or like, "Let's not get too excited," or, you know, that kind of thing.

And so, I think for me, I've trained myself to kind of resist that urge to like listen to like really, really get curious, to really, really delve because I don't want to make people super uncomfortable because I am the person at parties who's like, "Tell me your hopes and your dreams. Let's become best friends right now."

Sarah: Oh, that's interesting. But are there some places in your life where that works really well for you? Like...

Cate: Yeah, I mean, I have this job, right?

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah.

Cate: Like, I love communicating in this capacity, like being on the podcast where it's like, "OK, I'm allowed to just ask you as many questions as I want for the next hour about communication. And like, I am not going to get in trouble. I'm not like bothering you, which is great. I love this for us."

But it's so interesting because especially in like my real life, I have such, the fortunate circumstances that, like, my friends are, like fascinating, interesting people. Like my friends are cool. But I see even then the like, "OK, Cate's doing her thing where she wants to know everything about everything."

And like, but then I'm also sort of like watching myself from the outside and realizing that like, I'm not giving other people space in the conversation, or like, maybe I'm doing a little bit too much of the talking, even in my desire to because I'm really good at reflecting back. I'm like, "Oh, I heard you say..." and then I'll just explain the entire thing because I'm an overexplainer.

Sarah: First of all, I think when you say, you know, "I'd rate myself a C plus, maybe a B minus in this part," if we were to meet, I'm like, "Oh, that's someone who is good at growing," right? Like that's the one who, right, because you see room to grow. I'm curious, do you think others in your life would have that same assessment of you? Because we haven't known each other very long, and I already have a different assessment.

Cate: I don't know. I mean, I think my, it's funny, because my husband I think gets frustrated because he is like locked into like listening to solve land. And I love him for it because he's the guy who will always you know, it's like, "OK, you got a problem? Like, let's fix it." But sometimes I'm like, "No, no, no. I need this like other way."

Sarah: Yeah.

Cate: And so, I try to be cognizant of that. But I think I'm bad at reading people like I I don't necessarily know. when to be a solver or when to be an understander or when to be just like a compassionate listener. And so, I second-guess myself a lot.

Sarah: OK, so I do have a thought on that. Something that I think helps a lot of people. But before, can we dive in a little more? Because I too love this journey for us. It's such a fascinating topic. I love it so much. I just exploded my like new NeeDoh fidget toy.

Cate: Oh my gosh, what is your fidget? This is my fidget toy. It's a giant D8, but it's very pokey, so I have to be careful.

Sarah: Oh, I love that. Mine is this new thing. I don't know how new it is. New to me, called NeeDoh.

Cate: OK.

Sarah: All the tweens are into it now. I discovered it through my daughter who represents the tween cohort in our family, which is very useful to have. OK, so I think it's super interesting, this concept of being really good at one mode and not another because first of all, the mind can do all sorts of things. Sometimes it'll be really good of one mode that will overlook areas where we could potentially grow. Sometimes it'll be weaker in another mode that will overlook areas that we're actually really strong in.

So, I have an example, and I'm curious if you relate to this. I think it's super interesting how you talk about your strengths in listening, which is you get really excited about ideas. I noticed that immediately about you when we talked, like... Oh, this is someone who's fun to talk to because she gets so excited. And then and then I feel that excitement, right? It's so fun. And clearly, you're very good at it. Like, I think there's, you know, a lot of objective evidence. I think you have a million people plus who like to…

Cate: Around...I don't know, who's counting?

Sarah: But, you, know, a minimum a million people who like, to hear you listen and talk to people. You have a lot of objective feedback. Like, this isn't me just saying this, because I like you. Like, there's a lot of objective evidence that you're great at having a conversation. One example I'll give from my own life and a lot of my colleagues is I'm really good at listening to understand, like almost to the point where, like nothing else will exist. Total state of flow, like my prefrontal cortex calms down. not overly thinking, it's really, really natural. And not only is it natural, like I love it.

Like I would love to sit with you and hear your life story genuinely, like genuinely, right? And I think people can feel that. But a challenge for me in my life is the conversational volley. And it's something I've had to work on, but I've so many people in my live who I get close with quickly, because, you know, I feel connected to them, they feel connected me. But maybe at some point, they're like, "You know, I really don't know much about you." And that's not great for relationships, right?

(14:32) Anecdotal communication

Cate: One of the other sort of markers of being a good listener is asking questions. And something that I am fascinated by as an ADHD person, as a neurodivergent person, is the idea of anecdotal communication, which is where, instead of being like, "Oh, Sarah, where are you from?" You know, I listen to you tell your story. And then I go "That reminds me of a time..." And so, like I mirror the experience or like my understanding of what you just said by presenting an antidote of myself.

So, if you listen to a lot of like ADHD folks have a conversation, there's not a lot of questions, there a lot of like storytelling going back and forth. And to me, that is my comfort zone. To me, it feels like I see you, I hear you, I empathize, I know what it's like. And it's not me trying to take the focus. It's not trying to say, "No, we're talking about me now." That's how I sort of mirror back to someone that I understand and I empathize.

But there are a lot of people who don't appreciate anecdotal communication who go, "Why do you never ask me questions about myself? Or if I come to you and I tell you, I'm having a really hard time at work, why do YOU launch into a story about your crappy boss at work? Why do you start talking about yourself?" And so, those differences in communication, I think those can be really interesting when we start looking at ADHD and listening and how it fits into relationships.

Sarah: I love that example so much because in the example you gave of that anecdotal volley back and forth, like it sounds like everyone involved in that was really having a great time and really feeling seen and really engaged, right? And that's wonderful. So, I think it's like so many things. In a relationship, like is everyone getting their basic needs met in this situation? Is everyone having a good time? Great. Like let go of the rules.

I had a colleague, I also have ADHD, and a colleague who did too, and at one point I interrupted her; I was so excited. I'm like, "I'm so sorry. I'm just really excited about this. I interrupted you." And she said, "On the contrary, thank you for interrupting me. I'm still glad that we can be in our enthusiasm together and let go of some of the typical norms." And then the two of us, when we would connect, we would have a different way of connecting.

(16:48) Asking what a person needs out of a conversation

It's so much, and this goes back to your earlier question of like, what do we do? What do we? I think so much of it depends on the purpose of the conversation. There are times in close relationships where you can ask what the person needs or, "Hey, Cate, I'm gonna talk to you about something." "Oh, OK, great, Sarah. What do you need out of this conversation? Are you really looking for someone to listen? Are you just looking to be heard? Are you looking to not be judged," right?

So, you can do like, some may call it like a communication contract, right? Sounds really formal, but it's really just what is the intention of this conversion. And I think particularly, right, when you're close enough with someone. there's bound to be something about you that frustrates them or something about them that frustrate you, right? It's a sign of closeness. It's the sign that you've peeled some of the layers of the onions. And so, it sounds kind of funny, but you can talk about talking and talk about what works for someone else so that overall you have a balance of, "Hey, this is working for me, this working for you. We're all getting our needs met here."

Cate: OK. I was touching my nose, that was a waiting to talk listening because I have something so important to say.

Sarah: Yay!

Cate: So, I'm so curious about that.

Sarah: Yeah.

Cate: The reason why is because one of the more popular content that I do is about different listening styles. People love it when I talk about anecdotal communication. But across the board, whenever I would make the video where I was like, "Hey, ask people what they need. Do they want a solution? Do they just want compassion? Do they want whatever?" the comments. The comments, Sarah.

Sarah: Yeah, what are the comments?

Cate: They would be full and like, I cannot stress how many thousands of comments I would get from people being like, "Ew, I don't want to like, use gross therapy talk like that sounds so fake. That sounds so like grody that sounds disingenuous to ask somebody like what kind of listening they need. Like I'm not going to do that. That's stupid."

And I'll get thousands of those comments. And like, on one hand, I get it. I think that there can be like a, it's a muscle, right? It's a skill that you have to practice and get better at. But like, what do you say, Sarah, to the people who go, "Ew, I don't want to do that because that seems so fake and disingenuine"?

Sarah: Yeah. Oh my God. I love that. What do you say to those people?

Cate: I, see I had to be nice, but I don't know if I have to be as nice on the podcast. Like I would get really frustrated because to me, it's sort of, I think it lives kind of in the same world as, you know, I get a lot, especially because I talk so much about sex and intimacy and communicating about sex and intimacy, and I have so many people who come and they say, "Ew, I don t want to have to talk through every aspect of a hookup. Like I don't want to have to ask for. consent over and over."

And I kind of fall on the side of like, well, it's something that you have to practice and there's different ways to do it. And there's different ways to couch those conversations. They can be fun, they can be serious, they can be sexy, they can be completely outside of the intimate environment.

But like, I think at the end of the day, if you want to have fulfilling and generative and, I don't know, maybe useful is the word that I would use, conversations, at some point, you have to get a little bit outside of your comfort zone. And if your comfort zone is so small that you are uncomfortable exploring any other type of listening or any other type communication, that to me is maybe something that that individual needs to work on.

Sarah: Well, what is it that's uncomfortable about that? Very therapist-talky in my mind. "Oh, what is that about it, huh? Right?

Cate: Yeah.

Sarah: Like super therapist mode. But also that my mind totally went to the example of, I know you have a lot of conversations about sex on the podcast too, and the process of consent where so often people are like, "I don't wanna do that, ugh." But then you hear so many stories of someone on the other side of that encounter when that conversation wasn't had and how damaging that could be. And I think you're right, Cate, I think there's a lot of ways to do it.

You have to do in your own voice. The voice I'm going to have with my husband or with my clients, right? Or with my colleagues is going to be really different from each other and also really different from how other people are going to do it. I'm a different person. So, I think it's really important that it feels somewhat authentic.

But working on your listening, it's a little vulnerable. You have to sit with discomfort. You have sit with not knowing. You have sometimes check in with someone else on how you're doing. And that can be vulnerable and uncomfortable and usually, very often, like no one, I rarely hear someone say, "Oh, that was a time that I just felt so comfortable in my life and everything was going well and I grew so much".

Cate: Yeah, like, growth can feel really, I always say, like itchy, it's not necessarily like uncomfortable, like "I'm in pain," but it's like, "Ugh, I don't know if I like this very much."

(21:47) What can we do?

So, what do we do, Sarah, if we're feeling that uncomfortability, which is definitely a real word, if you're feeling hesitancy, like, "Ew, I don't want to do that, or like, "Ugh." What are some useful ways that we can move past that in order to become better listeners to become better partners, to become that our friends.

Sarah: I think when is awkward, sometimes scripts help. We usually know ourselves a lot better than we think we do. So, what are your tendencies that you feel like aren't working for others in your life? And then just name it, right? So, hey, Cate, I know that I can get distracted in a conversation, and I just want you to know that that doesn't mean I don't care. And then that might open the door for someone else to share something. So, that could be a really, I wouldn't say easy place to start, but an authentic place to start.

Cate: Yeah.

Sarah: I think one of the challenges for people with ADHD and listening is that the intention is really misunderstood. So, in your anecdotal volley, like, Cate, I would love that. I would like to be right in that volley with you. That sounds so fun, right? But does that work in all situations? It sounds like you've gotten some feedback that it doesn't. So, just kind of naming that truth can kind of open up a conversation without having to be so formal about it.

Cate: Yeah, and I think, too, like, this is really two different worlds or like genres of relationships, because I think most of us have those safe relationships. We have, like the partners, the friends, the family members to whomst, you know, we could go and say, "Hey, sometimes I'm going to interrupt. It doesn't mean that I'm not listening. It just means that I am excited. Bear with me." But then we also have those work relationships.

We have those more formal, professional relationships like, you know, you don't want to go to the job interview and the first thing you say is like, "Hey, I'm probably going to interrupt you a lot," right? There's that line to walk. And so, there's an element of masking, there's an element of sort of knowing like the when and where. And I think one of the things that I hear a lot from women with ADHD is like that's the exhausting part, is that we can't be the same person at home with our friends with our family that we have to be at at work professionally.

Sarah: It is so exhausting. It's very true that there's plenty of places in the world where kind of that being authentic, I actually really don't like the advice "Just be yourself." We know that that doesn't work everywhere, right?

Cate: That's a hot take, Sarah. You don't like the advice "Be yourself." Expound. I want to hear all about that.

Sarah: I don't like the advice, "Just be yourself." I like the advice, "Be yourself" in general, right? Be yourself, be true to yourself. Just, I think that word "just" in front of it, it's like a four-letter word, right? Just, like don't just all over that. That's a really hard thing to do to be yourself and also if you're getting feedback in an environment that you're not really being accepted for who you are when you give someone the gift of you and your authentic self, why would you keep doing it, right?

So, so much of growth starts by taking small risks, but you choose where you take that risk. So, if you work in a really formal environment, do I recommend that you say, "By the way, this is my style of communication, like, and you're pretty sure already, it's not going to go well. Is that the place to experiment?" Probably not.

Cate: Yeah.

Sarah: What are the places in your life where it's a reasonable risk to take? So, like, I might have something, say with my husband, where, you know, I know something's bothering him and he's shown me over our time together that he actually really responds well and kindly even if it immediately doesn't go well in the conversation, eventually he will see the intention and we'll get to a good place. So, I think choosing those places where the risk feels reasonable and it feels like a small risk versus a huge risk is a really good place to start.

Cate: Sarah Greenberg, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. You are a therapist. You work at understood.org. You do so much cool stuff for the learning differences community. And I'm so appreciative for this conversation. And I feel like I've become a little bit of a better listener just listening to you.

Sarah: Thank you, Cate. It's been such a pleasure to connect with you and listen to you and be heard by you.

Cate: Thanks, Sarah.

Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissthis@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.

"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Samiah Adams is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. I'll see you next time.

Sarah: Like, if you ever think you're cool, like, hang out with a tween.

Cate: Consult a tween. "Excuse me, am I cool?"

Sarah: No, no.