Kids struggling with math? It could be dyscalculia

Some kids work hard in math but still struggle to keep up. Even with extra practice, the numbers just don’t click. This might be a sign of dyscalculia, a learning disability that makes it difficult to understand and use numbers.

In this episode, we’re joined by math teacher Brendan Hodnett. Hear as Brendan explains what dyscalculia is and how it can affect a student’s confidence. Then find out what families can do  to help support their child.

Related resources

• What is dyscalculia?

• Dyscalculia or math anxiety? Compare the signs in kids

Timestamps

(0:00) Intro

(01:12) What is dyscalculia? 

(06:39) Signs a child may have dyscalculia 

(11:46) Consequences of undiagnosed dyscalculia 

(17:15) What families can do

We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at opportunitygap@understood.org.

Episode transcript

Brendan Hodnett: Dyscalculia can impact that foundational math very early on.

Julian Saavedra: That's math educator and Understood expert Brendan Hodnett. He knows better than anyone how confusing math struggles can be.

Brendan: There's always red flags in front of us before that, and I don't think we need to wait for standardized testing to make that determination.

Julian: Because sometimes no matter how much effort a child puts in, the problem isn't effort at all.

Brendan: Starting to lose that confidence, not just in your ability to do math, but then that lack of confidence can then spread out across schooling in general.

Julian: Welcome to "The Opportunity Gap," a show where we talk about how to navigate the education system. I'm your host, Julian, an assistant principal with 20 years of experience in education. Today we're exploring what dyscalculia really is, how it affects students in and out of the classroom, and what families can do to help.

Welcome to the show, Brendan. How's it going?

Brendan: Hey, what's going on? Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Julian: So, let's jump in, let's just define what this is, and let's put this in terms that the common person can understand. Like, what is dyscalculia?

Brendan: So, it is a learning disorder that specifically impacts part of the brain that would process and learn, you know, math information, right? So it's going to impact a person's ability to, you know, build number sense, to perform math calculations to memorize math facts. You know, some of the things that, you know, we learn very early on when we're learning and practicing with math. Um, and then we sort of take it for granted like, "Yeah, everyone knows that." And then you move on to the more complicated stuff. Dyscalculia can impact that foundational math very early on and then have an impact with getting better and building those, you know, concepts over time throughout a K-to-12 education.

Julian: Got it. So it's essentially a learning disability that's directly related to math and foundational math skills. So here's my question, then on this podcast, we've talked at length about dyslexia. Like we talk a lot about how reading disabilities are a major, major issue across our country with our students. How come we don't talk about dyscalculia as much? Like I would imagine something as intense and serious as this should be talked about as much as dyslexia is. What's your take? Like how come we don't talk about it as much?

Brendan: So, I'd like to give my take on this, all right? First thing, factual information that I know for sure is there's just less research on it, okay? There's a lot less research on dyscalculia than there is on, you know, reading disabilities, specifically dyslexia. Okay. The reason why I think we don't talk about it as often is because I bet many people think they're bad at math, all right? And they've always thought they were bad at math and they just think that's sort of a symptom of, you know, how they were raised or the education that they got. So when someone else is also bad at math, they're like, "Oh yeah, you know, you're just not a math person."

And they don't dive into it as heavily as if you're struggling to read or write. So it's not as big of a red flag and it doesn't always come up with teachers, you know, to say, "Hey, you know what? This child is really struggling with math. I think there's a concern here." Sometimes they get to it a little bit too late. And, you know, then parents don't know the right questions to ask and they think, "You know, they're in the same boat that I was. I wasn't very good at math. They're just not that good at math." And it's not something that they ask enough questions about. It's not something that, you know, school districts maybe focus enough time on or research focuses enough of their energy and time on.

Julian: Got it. So can you, you know, break down for our listeners, what's the difference between feeling like you just can't master the material versus actually being somebody who is experiencing or is diagnosed with dyscalculia?

Brendan: You know, we want to make sure that there's a clear distinction because a lot of times when people start to hear about a learning disability like dyscalculia and they think, "Well, I wasn't good at math. Maybe I have that," right? Like that's always like the first indication like, "Oh, that sounds like something that maybe I struggled with." I think most people, when they see those two individuals side by side, someone with dyscalculia and someone who's just struggling with math, especially as they, you know, move on into Algebra I or geometry and and it gets more advanced, the key differences are some of the basic foundational math skills that are not necessarily built until a much later, like point in life or it took many, many years to to build that those foundations. So I'm talking about something as simple as, you know, preschool, kindergarten age, you're looking at a subset of items sitting in front of you, right? Like five items are sitting in front of you and knowing that those five items are represented by the number five that's also written on the paper or written on the board and that those two things are connected. A young person with dyscalculia is going to have difficulty making that connection that the number five represents the five items that are sitting in front of them.

You would have those five small items sitting in front of you and then maybe seven items sitting in a pile next to them and knowing that those two are different and one is greater than the other. That would be really challenging for someone with dyscalculia at a young age. Got it. When we talk about people who aren't very good at math and they just think, "Oh, you know, math was hard for me. I was never really motivated to learn it. You know, I don't think my teacher liked me very much. I, you know, I started getting bad at it and then I started feeling bad about math and I didn't do great in it." They're not struggling with basic foundational math skills like that.

They may have had trouble memorizing their math facts, but that could have been a different issue that's causing that, that memorization issue as opposed to really not having a true number sense and a foundation. And that's where we start to see the separation, and it happens really early on.

Julian: Mhm. So it sounds like this is something that should be looked at earlier in education and as I understand math, it's constantly building upon itself. Like the more that you learn, you have to build upon those foundational concepts. So if you don't get the basics, then it's really hard to learn more advanced mathematical skills. In your experience, where is the point where, you know, we should start looking for some of these signs that a child might have dyscalculia?

Brendan: So, as a parent, I think you might notice it even before they begin schooling, right? I think numbers tend to be one of those things that we as parents and individuals will sort of gravitate towards that we want our kids counting. Oh, like that's a fun task that a young kid can start doing and they start counting it out. "Can you count to 10? Can you count to 20?" Mhm. You know, they're missing a number here and there. Okay, they start to pick it up.

If you're starting to notice like they're heading off to school and they're still struggling with some of the things that, "Oh, I thought they would have picked that up by now." Well then, okay, there's a red flag. It's something you're aware of now. Maybe your child has trouble sort of understanding the space that's around them or estimating how far it is to jump over that puddle, or, you know, little things like that. You're like, "Oh, okay, that, that seems to keep happening," right? Those are just like little red flags to say, let's see what happens when we start getting into actual math instructions. So they get into preschool, then they get into kindergarten, and the teacher is noticing some of the similar issues that they're not meeting certain benchmarks. Okay, I think then maybe this is, this is an area we would like to start exploring some intervention. So, similar to reading, right? That K-to-3 time period in public schools is really where we want to start picking up. Like, is there an issue? Should we be thinking about intervention? Is our student responding, is this child responding to the intervention that we're providing? If they are, great. They're picking up some of the things that they missed. They're building on those foundational skills. They're showing growth. We're okay.

If that intervention is not necessarily working, that's where we want to start thinking, maybe there's, it's time for an evaluation. And, you know, the earlier you get that evaluation and you're able to determine that dyscalculia is the issue, then the earlier we can make sure that the supports are in place and the right environment is there for a child to learn and be successful.

Julian: Right. This just brings so many questions to mind, like one, the amount of challenges that this can pose for a child not only in the classroom, but I'm thinking sports, I'm thinking playing in the playground, I'm thinking their social awareness and their social interactions. What are some of the long-term consequences or impacts of surviving or thriving with dyscalculia being undiagnosed?

Brendan: I think starting to lose that confidence, not just in your ability to do math, right? I think that's where it starts. Right. But then that lack of confidence can then spread out across schooling in general, and you could start to retreat from school as a whole and want to avoid it. That's where we, you know, we start to see kids distance themselves from like the things that need to get done because there's a whole added stress of getting those things accomplished, whether it's, you know, time management, understanding like, you know, the grading system that's, that's challenging for them, and then obviously like the work itself if that's hard. Right. Well, yeah, then we're going to start to avoid it, right? And we're going to start to lean on things that we're more confident in that we, you know, that we know that we've had success with, right? So I think we can see kids undiagnosed, not necessarily getting the supports that they need, not rebuilding that confidence through the use of certain strategies.

I think the concern most would be, are they going to start to retreat from schooling? And that being said, outside of school, are we starting to see that they're retreating from activities that they loved when they were younger? And then like competitive sports or playing games with their friends? As they get even older, money comes into play and now there's concerns about, you know, paying bills as an adult. Like, "Oh, I'm just gonna avoid that. That's too stressful for me." Right? Or just managing their budget. Honestly, even going out with friends and having to figure out like, "How are we all gonna split this? Who's in charge? How much do I owe?" That can add a layer of anxiety and a layer of stress that, you know, the bigger concern would be, would they start to retreat from doing those things because they don't want to feel that, you know, in those situations? A lot of what I'm saying to you is it sounds so negative and it sounds like, "Ah, this is so hard." And I'm not disparaging anyone. It is challenging. Mhm.

There are definitely strengths that people have and we want to make sure that, you know, we recognize like you said, like they could make it all the way to high school and no one's really noticed this 'cause they were able to cope and they were able to come up with other strategies that helped them be successful enough to get there. So if we're specifically talking about dyscalculia, leaning on things like their understanding of vocabulary could be a true benefit to them.

Julian: It makes a lot of sense. I love that you brought it back to strengths-based uh, view of what we can look at with this. But I think that's a mindset that anybody who's talking about this should keep in mind. But thinking about dyscalculia, in your opinion, how do traditional school systems and standardized tests, how do they fail students with dyscalculia?

Brendan: You know, that's a great question, and I kind of was thinking about this in one of our earlier questions that we, we sort of wait for the the standardized assessment, you know, we sort of wait for the the benchmark test to tell us, you know, where our kids at and, you know, what's the difference between one child and his grade level peers? And how do we then say that's our reasoning for identifying, "Okay, there's a math issue here?" Right.

There's always red flags in front of us before that, and I don't think we need to wait for standardized testing to make that determination because, you know, as you know, as an administrator, you know, if we're saying that up upwards from maybe 5 to 10% of the population could be dyscalculic, right? Well, I would say half the population is not meeting the standard assessment scores.

So what does that mean for the other 40, 45% that don't have this math learning disability? Well, there are all these other issues related to math instruction and the way we feel about math here, you know, in the United States and the way we teach it and the way our system is set up for it. So, why not look at kids who learn and think about math differently and who struggle to see the numbers the way we traditionally teach it and think, "Well, what are we doing here to instruct them that that works and then improves their understanding?"

And how can that be applied elsewhere to get more kids into math and more kids feeling confident and more kids growing up with that stronger foundation? And even when they get to that place where it's like, "Okay, now we're getting into algebra, now we're getting into algebra II." Well, why not have a choice for them to say, "I'm good at math. I have a strong foundation, but I'm not passionate about it. So what are my choices from here?" Maybe it doesn't need to be this traditional setup where we move into geometry and trigonometry and calculus. 'cause that scares people. That gives them anxiety and say, "You know what? I'm shutting down."

So, to your point, to your question, this yearly practice of standardized assessments and the way that our curriculums are designed to get to that test at the end of every year. it might be setting us up for failure when some kids just need more developmental time. in those foundations.

Julian: So, all right, then let's say, Brendan, we reach out to the school, we talk to the teacher, we've put the request in writing. All that time is passing by and my child is still struggling. My child's coming home saying that, "I don't like math. Maybe I don't like school." Are there specific strategies or tools that you recommend to use at home that can maybe support or at least help your child build some of that confidence back while they're waiting for the school to provide some of that help?

Brendan: Absolutely. I think always being willing to work with your child in a way that's a little bit more fun, that's a little bit more engaging, less rigorous, less, you know, worksheet math problems, memorize your math facts kind of thing. If we can get away from that when you're at home, it might lessen the anxiety associated with math. It might increase their interest and confidence in doing so.

So that's where we want to say like, "How can we make this a little bit more multi-sensory? How can we make it a game? How can we get kids using sight, using their voice, using  touch? How can we do that and still have them be engaging in mathematical activities and work with concepts?" Right? So I, I generally offer to families, if they're comfortable with it, if their kids are motivated by it, like, bring out some food, right? Let's use like small cereal pieces, right, where we can set them up into groups and, we'll have a little competition and if you win the competition, then you get to eat your pile, things like that, right? If you're noticing that they're struggling with specific skills like repeated addition or simple subtraction, like setting up a small pile of cereal and asking them to remove three and tell you how many they have left. That's just good practice and it's fun, and then they can eat the three that they removed once they get it correct. It's rewarding.

Julian: Yeah, I love that you, you know, advocated for gamifying the process because again, we know that the more engagement is going to happen when there's some incentive involved.

Brendan, I could talk to you all day about this. I feel like I've learned a lot about how dyscalculia just appears in day-to-day life. And I hope that our listeners feel more confident in advocating for their children, but also advocating for themselves in getting the support they need. I can't say enough, thank you so much.

Brendan: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. 

Julian: Thanks so much for listening today. We love hearing from our listeners, so if you have any thoughts about today's episode, you can email us at opportunitygap@understood.org.

And be sure to check out the show notes for links and resources to anything we mentioned in the episode.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

"The Opportunity Gap" is produced by Tara Drinks and Cody Nelson. Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Nico Rothenberg.

Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director.

From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson.

Thanks again for listening.