Math anxiety, caffeine, and learning to manage emotions with ADHD (Derek Miller’s story)

Derek Miller wears many hats: money coach, musician, athlete, performer, cider guide, and more. His ADHD story is just as full of twists. Derek didn’t find out he had ADHD until college. The jump from high school left him struggling to focus — especially while also caring for his wife during her cancer treatment. To get through the stress, he often used caffeine, while also working on managing his emotions and finding ways to improve himself.

Derek’s view of life and money also changed during his time in Mozambique, where he served as a Mormon missionary. That experience shaped how he thinks about community and resilience. In this episode of ADHD Aha!, host Laura Key talks with Derek about majoring in math even though he had math anxiety, how he learned to handle his emotions and focus, and why he now helps others build a healthier relationship with money.

• ADHD and managing money

• ADHD and caffeine

• Derek's financial education instagram

(00:00) Intro

(01:07) Derek’s college ADHD diagnosis story

(05:53) Math anxiety

(09:04) Self awareness and introspection

(12:32) How emotional money can be

(15:49) Derek’s time living in Mozambique, and what he learned about rejection sensitivity

(21:40) What’s next for Derek

(22:53) Outro and credits

We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at adhdaha@understood.org or record a message for us here.

(00:00) Intro

Derek Miller: I mean, I remember having an anxiety attack in the testing center when I was taking a math test. I know the feeling of like looking at a paper and then having like a true, strong emotional response. So a lot of my math program was me also learning to manage my emotions in conjunction with the classes that I was taking. And that was very difficult.

(01:07) Derek’s college ADHD diagnosis story

Laura Key: This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org. And as someone who's had my own ADHD aha moment, I'll be your host.

I am here today with Derek Miller. Derek is a money coach and aspiring financial planner who is also a musician, athlete, performer, scientist, and, my favorite tidbit, a certified cider guide. What can't you do, Derek? Welcome to "ADHD Aha!"

Derek: Thanks.

Laura: So you were diagnosed about 10 years ago while you were in college. Can you start by telling us what was going on around that time?

Derek: Yeah, so I suspected that I had ADHD for a while, but it was always kind of a joke in my family. It's just kind of like, "Ah, you know, ADD moment, whatever." But it was in college where things really started to kind of become hard. My first semester of college was very difficult, as I think it is for most people, the transition from high school to college is pretty stark. But in my case, one of the things that happened is I got married early on. I was a young 23-year-old. Wow.

And I ended up getting married, but four months after I got married to my wife, she got diagnosed with cancer. And that was a big stress event, to say the least. School, which was already hard, became much, much harder, much, much harder to focus. I was in some pretty heavy economics and math classes at the time. And so it was kind of a wild ride.

And my mom at the time had been taking my dad and as well as my sibling to the doctor because my dad was having a hard time. And my mom was just kind of like, "There's some patterns here that are going on. Something's weird." So she took my dad to the doctor. He got diagnosed with ADHD. And so my mom was like, "Hey, have you considered that you might have ADHD?" And I was like, "Well, I guess I've sort of joked about it, but maybe this is more serious than I thought."

Laura: What's your wife's name?

Derek: Sarah Kay.

Laura: And how is Sarah Kay doing?

Derek: She's in remission now.

Laura: Amazing. I'm so happy to hear that. That's wonderful. Why do you think your mom suggested that you might want to look into this? What is it about you that she was seeing?

Derek: What is it about all of the kids? So it turns out that my dad, as well as all of my siblings, we all have ADHD.

Laura: Oh my God. Wait, how many siblings?

Derek: So I'm one of five kids.

Laura: Okay, that's a lot of ADHD.

Derek: It's a, it's a lot, yeah. So my mom was going crazy. That's why.

Laura: Your poor mom.

Derek: Yeah, she was looking to offload some of the executive function that she was doing for everybody else in the family. Right. So I think that was a big part of the journey. But also, I think that some of the things that kind of were flags in her mind were like, one of the most consistent comments that my teachers would give me in elementary school was like, "He's a big daydreamer." And I do remember I would just like daydream all the time.

So I have very inattentive ADHD and it's very high-functioning. I tend to do very well academically, and so it sort of went undiagnosed for a really long time.

(05:53) Math anxiety

Laura: Walk me through struggling with ADHD during these hardest moments in college. And you obviously have really emotional things happening at home with your wife. You know, tell me how your ADHD was affecting you, you know, prior to your diagnosis, right? In the moments before maybe your, your mom was like, "You need to get this checked out."

Derek: So cancer was hard enough. That's just, like chemotherapy, that's just emotionally hard. I made a very wise decision, I think, which was I only went to school part-time. So I withdrew from a lot of classes to keep my workload light, and then I was also working a part-time job. And then because Sarah Kay was bedridden for a number of months, I was doing all the household chores and the cooking and cleaning and everything like that.

So I had a very busy life, but I don't remember ADHD being particularly bad. And I think part of that is because of my response of like, "Hey, let's just scale back. There's no reason to try to push myself to crazy extremes." So I would say the worst manifestations of my ADHD actually happened before and after she was in the process of healing from the chemotherapy.

Before it sort of manifested as, so you know, I grew up Mormon and Mormons don't drink coffee or tea. So, no caffeine. Uh, well, no, no hot drinks. Yeah. So my hack was because Mountain Dew was okay. The way that I got through my economics classes is I would have, you know, I, like I would sit down to do my homework, and you'd think that I'd be interested in this stuff, and I was, but every time that I'd face my homework, my eyes would like cloud over and like they'd water and I'm like, "I can't, I'm falling asleep."

So I would go every week to the store and I'd buy a 12-pack of Mountain Dew, and I'd have it right at my desk. And anytime I'd feel the sleepies coming on, which took, you know, 15 minutes to hit, I would get up and I would chug like a can of Mountain Dew and then I'd have a quick little dance party in my room. I'd turn on some crazy dance music and I'd just dance it out. And then that would kind of wake me up and I'd be able to focus on my homework.

Laura: So Mountain Dew to the rescue.

Derek: Yep, exactly. So that was really tough. I think that was one of the manifestations. Later, after the cancer, math started getting very, very difficult. The more math classes you take, I mean, it just really escalates and it pushes most people. I mean, I remember having an anxiety attack in the testing center when I was taking a math test. So I do know math anxiety.

I know the feeling of like looking at a paper and then having like a true, strong emotional response and so just like trying to like calm myself down, you know, breathe it out. So a lot of my math program was me also learning to manage my emotions in conjunction with the classes that I was taking. And that was very difficult.

Laura: Math anxiety is such an interesting topic 'cause I think a lot of people assume that if you're anxious about math, it's because you must be bad at math. Mhm. But that's not always the case. And certainly it doesn't sound like the case with you. No. What was the anxiety, in your estimation, like what was it related to?

Derek: Oh, this is a great question. So one of my earlier math classes, which is mostly, you know, early math classes are all about calculation. And so you're basically kind of doing what computers do, but just by hand. And I remember I was taking a test and I felt like I just nailed the test. I like knocked it out of the park. And then I got my test back and it was like a C. And I was like, "What did I do? What's going on?" And there were just a number of little tiny mistakes. And the most infamous one was I did the whole process right, but I was going through it rather quickly, and I, I wrote "2 * 3 = 5." And that was...

Laura: It does not equal five, everybody, in case, yeah.

Derek: Right, in case people don't know, 2 * 3 is 6.

Laura: 2 + 3 is 5.

Derek: 2 + 3 is 5. And my brain did a little and switched that around. And that caused the problem to like balloon into this insane. So I was like, "Wow, this problem is so hard. Like, I can't believe I'm having to do all these calculations on this test." So I think what ended up developing was this sense that like, "I'm going to make a mistake." And so then it kind of turns into this like double-checking, triple-checking, quadruple-checking, which ends up feeding the anxiety 'cause you're always worried, you're always vigilant, like thinking that you've made some kind of minor error. That has persisted a little bit even into my work life where it's like, "Oh no, like have I made some kind of mistake?" That detail orientation can sometimes be a challenge. But that's also why I like coding is because once you code up a solution and it's correct, it's always going to be correct.

(09:04) Self awareness and introspection

Laura: It's always there. Yeah. No, that's really interesting though because, and I imagine that a lot of kids and adults with ADHD have that experience too because it sounds like it was rooted in something. You had had experiences where you did everything right, but then like a tiny error 'cause maybe you didn't check your work or maybe you got distracted at one point. That sticks with you and then the anxiety kicks in, right? It's similar to the kid with ADHD who does their homework but then just forgets to turn it in.

Derek: Yes.

Laura: So they get a zero.

Derek: Yeah. Which is me.

Laura: You have been very successful at managing your ADHD even prior to having your diagnosis. And it sounds like through a mix of caffeine, Mountain Dew... and also a lot of self-awareness, just the fact that you knew that you needed to be part-time in school, it seems like a no-brainer. I'm sure in hindsight, but a lot of people would not do that. I certainly at college age would not. I would just be like, "No, I have to keep going. I have to do everything," even if life is really, really hard right now. Where did that self-awareness come from in that grace that you gave yourself?

Derek: Yeah. I think it's part nature, part nurture. I have to give a lot of credit to my home environment. We talked a lot about self-improvement and psychology even. I think my church environment also fostered some introspection. But that said, you know, comparing myself to my peers, I was way more introspective and self-aware. So I think it's a combination of those factors.

Laura: Do you think that your ADHD, the daydreaming-ness, I don't know, whatever you want to call it, makes you more introspective and self-reflective?

Derek: I think so, yeah. I mean, that's my experience at church was like, "Oh, this talk is boring." And then I just, you know, kind of zone out and it ended up being like a good space for me to really go inside and think about myself and my relation to the world around me and how can I be better and things like that. Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, that's so beautiful. There are a lot of kids with ADHD, and I may or may not have been one of them, who was also in church and really crawling out of my skin and unable to find that place and just, you know, physically manifesting. So I'm glad that you had a different experience with your ADHD. It's just, it's so different for each of us. It sounds like you know, from what I know of you, like you've used that to help guide the decisions that you make in your life, which is really lovely.

Derek: I think in particular too, I'm fascinated by what I'm afraid of.

Laura: Tell me more.

(12:32) How emotional money can be

Derek: That's something that I end up pursuing. One of the interesting things is is when I was growing up as a kid, I would tell people I want to be an entomologist when I grow up, in particular, I want to study spiders. And people were like, "Oh, so you love spiders?" And that's true. I did love spiders. I was also kind of afraid of them. But I think that's part of what drew me in. That's what made me fascinated by them. And so I learned more about them and then I got to know them. And then that helped me overcome the innate fear, I guess, that or like that spookiness, that creepiness that you can feel.

And that theme has been very present throughout my whole life whenever I'm afraid of something. I tend to be very curious and fascinated by that experience itself. So it's interesting that I'm, you know, math, that was the case. "I'm not very good at math, and I'm kind of afraid of it, so like maybe I should pursue this more." Money, it's the same thing. I'm thinking a lot about how emotional money is and how underappreciated it is that money is such an emotional thing. I mean, it has the facade of being cold and non-emotional because it's a lot of numbers.

But even back when I was tutoring math, I would often start my math tutoring sessions with asking like, "Tell me about your math teachers. What has your experience been? Tell me about your relationship with math. Do you hate it or do you like it or do you feel a lack of confidence?" You know, I started with the emotions. And I have a saying, "Sometimes the real problem in a math problem is the emotional problem inside of you."

So I think math is actually a very emotional thing as well, and it can really teach a lot about you and your own emotions. And I've been thinking about that parallel with money itself and money is also very political and it brings up lots and lots of feelings. I've been thinking a lot about fraud. And scams are like a great example of the way in which money taps into those feelings.

So, for example, if you do get scammed, some people like avoid scams, they're like always vigilant and on the lookout for anything that even smells close to something like a scam, which is perhaps one over-correction 'cause then you live in a world where you just are constantly not trusting the world. And wouldn't it be better if maybe we live in a world where you can extend some trust and it's okay if somebody kind of rips you off as long as it's not like an a massive amount of money, right? 

But then on the other side, there's like, you know, people who do get scammed. And I think scams come from a place of deep insecurity that is such, it's such a common theme throughout all of humanity. You read history and like experiencing insecurity and wanting quick wins is such a human experience. And so to think about people who have been scammed and have lost a lot, like I really feel for them because I think it's a, it's one manifestation of something that's incredibly human.

(15:49) Derek’s time living in Mozambique, and what he learned about rejection sensitivity

Laura: One that I am pretty sure is more common for people with ADHD. There's an impulsivity. "Oh, I could make money fast."

Derek: Yeah, it's a quick dopamine, man. That quick hit.

Laura: The over-optimism, the impulsivity. I know that you're working to be a financial planner. Are you hoping to specifically help folks with ADHD?

Derek: I mean, that's not my target audience like explicitly, but I do think that I want to help people who, where there's like a lot of overlap with ADHD. My plan is to be servicing people who are in queer or non-traditional family structures. And there is a lot of neurodivergence overlap with people who are, you know, living those kinds of lives. And I'm one of those people as well, me and my wife are also part of this like queer family. But yeah, it will be a thing that I work with, yeah, even if that's not my specific target.

Laura: Yeah, I can tell that you would be very good at that.

Derek: I want you to talk a little bit about your missionary work. Sure, yeah. Once upon a time, I was a Mormon missionary in Mozambique, Africa. And so what that entails is I did not choose Mozambique. I was assigned there and you spend two consecutive years doing 12-hour days of either knocking doors, contacting people, trying to sit down with people and have lessons about Mormon doctrine as well as doing service projects and, you know, running church functions and things like that. So in Mozambique in particular, I did a lot of service projects and I met a lot of people who I would not have otherwise met and who I don't think that most people who go over there meet a lot of people who were, you know, very disenfranchised.

And Mozambique was just very poor across the board. When I left, it was the fourth poorest country in the world, according to the World Bank. So I saw lots of poverty. I also saw lots of community. And one of the things that impressed me while I was there was, I kept on writing home. It feels like everybody here is one big family, like everybody's family. And their generosity.

I remember one time I was sitting down in the lesson and I just made a comment about some guy's shirt. I was like, "Oh, cool shirt." It had a logo of like the Mozambican soccer team, which is like a notoriously horrible soccer team. Like they lose all the time. But we believe in them, damn it. Yeah. We do. Yeah. And but they're the Black Mambas, so it had a black mamba on there.

Laura: Cool.

Derek: And I just said, "Oh, your shirt's cool." He's like, "Oh yeah, you really like it?" And I was like, "Yeah." So he's like, "Hold on just a second." And then he goes away and I'm like, "What's going on, huh?" And he comes back with a different shirt on and he's like, "Here, you can just have this shirt."

Laura: Stop. That's amazing.

Derek: And I didn't even know how to take that. The level of generosity was just incredible. People were were so lovely. But yeah, I had some really transformative experiences, some experiences that sowed some seeds that have made me want to distance myself from the church a little bit, but the bigger story here is that it really told me I was curious to learn how modern economics works. Why are we creating some of these things and what can we do about it? Is there anything that we can do about it? So that's part of what motivated my change from anthropology, which was my original major, into math and economics.

Laura: That sounds like a very productive ADHD rabbit hole. Like if you're going to go down a rabbit hole, that's something quite meaningful and actually very productive, helpful to actually understand and to be able to make an impact through.

Derek: Totally.

Laura: You also learned a bit about yourself and your rejection sensitivity tendencies while you were in Mozambique. Is that right?

Derek: Yeah, I did. You know, I think it took a different form. For example, a lot of missionary work in Europe or America is a lot of door-slamming in your face. That's just something that you get used to. But in Mozambique, that was very much not the case. But I remember thinking at the time like, "Oh, I'm glad that I'm here and not somewhere in Europe because I think that I would take that rejection really, really hard."

So the rejection, like I didn't experience a lot of rejection in Mozambique specifically, but I was afraid of it. And I became aware that I was afraid of it. And I became aware that I was avoiding situations where I would be rejected.

Laura: Has that shown up in other areas in your life, either back then or now?

Derek: Absolutely. Yeah, it continues to be a challenge. You know, jobs and careers, like anytime you're applying for a job, everybody's worried about, you know, being rejected from job offers and things like that. The difference for me is like the outsized emotional impact on me. Like it gets to a point where it's irrationally afraid of even applying to jobs or even talking to people about job opportunities.

Laura: Do you have a specific example that you're open to sharing?

Derek: Well, certainly some rejections that have stung quite a bit.

Laura: Tell me about your worst rejections. Yes.

Derek: Yeah, let's, let's revel in them a little bit. Let's rub salt in the wound. Yeah, I applied to this one company. They put me through the interview process. It seemed like I was a great fit. I was an expert in the kinds of quantitative models that they were using. It was a data science-y position. But they had me do a test in Excel and then they also had me take an IQ test, which felt weird. That is weird. 

Laura: I don't like that.

Derek: I don't either. And it was kind of a weird IQ test. And, but anyway, so I did okay on the IQ test, and then I really didn't do well on the Excel assignment because I'm not used to that. I'm more of a computer programmer than working in spreadsheet software. So it was a bit clunky for me. But everything else about it was fine. And it didn't seem like my job was gonna be using Excel. They didn't really even have that on the job description.

So I felt like I was gonna get the job. I mean, I was already making friends with the team, and then they send this rejection letter and I was so caught off guard. But that's really stuck with me. It just doesn't feel good to be given these evaluations and then rejected based on those evaluations, which are like superficial criteria that are unrelated to your ability to perform the work.

(21:40) What’s next for Derek

Laura: I just had a flashback to this job that I got rejected from and it was totally my fault. I remember being completely overly optimistic about my ability to get this job. It was a very prestigious organization in a journalism role and I went to apply for this role having very little experience and I didn't even like read the news that day. And of course, the person who was on the hiring committee was like, "So what is the top story in the news today?" Just making sure that I'm staying, you know, abreast of what's happening in the world. And I was like, "Uh." And the news of the day was was huge. Like it was gigantic. And I was so embarrassed. And she just said I didn't get the job right there on the spot. It wasn't like a, "We'll contact you." It was like, "Sorry." That one stung. And then I learned to do my homework a little bit better. 

Derek, what is next for you? Anything you want to plug? I like to ask people if they want to plug something.

Derek Miller: Oh, sure. I'm currently in the process of teaching a money class. It's free. I just set up an Instagram account. It's mathmata.co is the handle. And it's, I call it "Dirty 20," which is, I'm taking a "D&D"-inspired role-playing perspective to finances.

Laura: Okay. Cool. I don't really get it. I'm not a "D&D" gal, but I...

Derek Miller: That's okay. There's not a lot of "D&D." I'm making it fun is really what it is. It's what I'm trying to do, making it more accessible to people who really want to tune out of this kind of stuff 'cause again, it's emotionally challenging. Like, for example, just this past Tuesday, we had a whole section where we talked about Nicolas Cage's finances.

Laura: Are they in bad shape?

Derek Miller: They were. They were in bad shape.

Laura: Oh.

Derek Miller: Yeah. So we learned a little bit about debt.

Laura: There I go, not checking the news again. This is, it's just biting me in the butt all over the place.

Derek: Well, it's like really old news. It's really old news.

Laura: See, I didn't even… Derek, it has been so nice to spend time with you. Thank you so much, Derek.

Derk: Thank you.

(22:53) Outro and credits

Thanks for listening today. As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. 

And check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned in the episode.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

Laura: "ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Say "Hi," Jessamine.

Jessamine: Hi, everyone!

Laura: And Margie DeSantis.

Margie: Hey, hey!

Laura: Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Alyssa Shea. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Production support provided by Andrew Rector.

Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. From Understood.org, our executive directors are Scott Cocchiere and Jordan Davidson.

And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.