I disciplined my ADHD daughter all wrong. This saved our relationship.

Psychotherapist and ADHD expert Merriam Saunders spent years locked in daily battles with her strong-willed daughter. No form of discipline worked. Then one ordinary blowup led to an unexpected realization: The problem wasn’t defiance, it was an ADHD skills gap. And, crucially, she realized it wasn’t her daughter’s job to fix it. 

Merriam shares what happened the moment she chose connection over control, and how that choice reshaped their relationship for good.

• Watch: Why I stopped hiding my kid’s neurodivergence 

• Read: 7 discipline tips when your child has ADHD

Merriam Saunders: I felt as though she needed to be broken like a wild horse and I didn't have it in me. You know, it was a battle of wills, but she was winning. I was wrong, obviously, that's not what it was about at all, but at the time, that's what I thought.

Jessica Shaw: Today, Merriam Saunders is a psychotherapist and an ADHD expert. But as a young mom raising three kids who struggled with impulse control, she did not have all that expertise. Discipline was a huge challenge. Nothing seemed to work, especially with her oldest daughter who has combined-type ADHD. Merriam would lecture her or yell or send her to her room.

The result wasn't better behavior. It was more defiance and a lack of trust. But then Merriam had an aha moment that would transform her approach to discipline and her very fraught relationship with her daughter. Now her daughter is almost 30 and they're very close. So I wanted to talk to her about the journey and what it took to get there. This is "Everyone Gets a Juice Box". I'm Jessica Shaw.

I want to start by asking you, when did you start thinking about discipline and realizing that maybe what you thought you knew wasn't exactly super helpful?

Merriam: Oh my gosh. I of course started thinking about discipline the minute I had to do it with my eldest. I didn't understand anything about ADHD until after I had become a therapist and learned about it in grad school. At that point, she was seven or eight years old and we were just starting down the diagnostic road with her. So by age seven, I just thought I had the most difficult child on the planet who was always non-responsive to whatever I tried to do discipline-wise.

Jessica: Tell me more. Partially because I feel like I can share all of my horror stories, so I love talking to other parents about this. What did it look like? Like, what did her behavior look like when you felt like, "Okay, I have to step in here"?

Merriam: Well, I think it might be important to frame this in terms of my expectations because I was a very obedient, quiet child who did what I was asked the first time I was asked. Now, I have inattentive ADHD myself, but I was not the hyperactive Tasmanian Devil child that my eldest daughter came into the world as.

So my expectations were that she would be just like me and if I just asked her to do something, of course she would say, "Sure, Mommy. Yes, Mommy." But instead, I'm chasing her around the house with a hairbrush trying to get her ready for school. She's breaking things intentionally and she's hitting people intentionally — what seemed like to me anyway — and was in a constant state of negotiation with me. And she usually won.

Jessica: What does that look like? Like, what is that negotiation like?

Merriam: Well, her will was stronger than mine. I just needed it to end. So she knew that if she hung in there long enough, I might eventually give in and say yes to whatever she was asking for. And ultimately, my knee-jerk reaction to any request she would make would always be no, which was also ridiculous because I was so used to this battle of wills that I set myself up in this state of conflict with her from the start, even if maybe she was making a reasonable request.

It unfortunately set us up to have a very conflicted relationship where, frankly — she knows this now, so I can say it out loud — I didn't like her very much. And I felt very sorry for myself because I didn't get the child I expected and I wasn't having this frolicking through the meadows to go set up a picnic blanket and read my child from Mother Goose stories relationship that I was expecting to have.

Jessica: I want to just go back and you mentioned that as a child, you were like a rule follower and you were high achieving. You also said that you have an adult diagnosis of ADHD. So I'm so curious about both of those things and their connection.

Merriam: Well, I was the quiet child who felt a little bit lost all the time. I had to work extra hard to stay organized and keep on top of things and was always missing social cues and the last instruction that was given. But I was really lucky in that I actually enjoyed school. I loved to read, I loved to learn, so rather than being the troublesome kid in the back of the class, I was always up front, completely engaged because I loved it.

So I had that dopamine flowing through my brain because I was engaged in learning, so I was able to achieve. But there was a constant state of anxiety in the background.

(05:13) The difference between what she perceived as defiance and how her daughter's ADHD brain was actually processing instructions.

Jessica: Tell me more about your daughter. You said she was defiant and I hear you about sort of running down the hallway and hitting things and knocking things over. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that defiance looked like?

Merriam: Any request that was made. So it's time for bed, time to brush your teeth, could you help with the dishes? Any instruction seemed to be met with defiance. I would say, "We have to leave for school in 10 minutes, so head to your room, grab your backpack, put your shoes on, get your coat from the closet, make your bed, and then meet me by the door."

And in hindsight, right now I know better. She maybe heard one of those instructions. And so when I would find her staring at the wall in her bedroom, I'd be like, "Come on, let's go. Why didn't you do what I asked?" The poor kid, her working memory stored perhaps three words of what I said.

Jessica: Like what you perceived as defiance was actually something else, how her brain works. I understand there was an incident with a Sharpie also. Can you tell me about that?

Merriam: Yeah, yes. I had the audacity to buy myself some new dining chairs and they were upholstered sand-colored. And next thing I know, the chairs aren't a day old and I turn around and she's standing there with a black Sharpie and she's just written all over the chair.

And of course, I scream at her, "What are you doing? What are you thinking?" And she freezes and actually, in that moment, lies. "I didn't do anything, it wasn't me," and she's standing there with the uncapped marker in her hand. And so of course, it's the double whammy of you just did that and now you're lying about it, spawn of the devil child, what have I created?

So, "Go to your room, don't come out until I let you come out." But all that does is have her in her room throwing things against the wall because she's so upset and frustrated and confused.

Jessica: Right. And then I imagine you feel like you need to then discipline that behavior.

Merriam: Of course. It was this just constant circular frustration.

Jessica: Yeah. And did you have a sense as you were disciplining — sending her to her room or yelling at her or trying to reason with her, whatever you were doing — and it wasn't getting the outcome that you wanted, what did that do to your confidence as a mother?

Merriam: I felt as though she needed to be broken like a wild horse and I didn't have it in me. Like, I thought that's really what it was going to take. You know, it was a battle of wills, but she was winning because I just wasn't that kind of person. I was wrong, obviously, that's not what it was about at all, but at the time, that's what I thought.

Jessica: What was the aha moment? What was the moment where you thought, "Oh, okay, I've been approaching this in a way that isn't helpful to frankly either of us"?

Merriam: There was one particular moment that she was upset about something and talking back. And I think at the time it was that she wanted to watch television because her little sister was, but she had homework to do and I wouldn't let her watch TV until she did her homework. And so she stomped down the hallway screaming, "I hate you."

And I thought to myself, "Gosh, again, right, this for the millionth time," I thought, "Why can't she just do what I ask? It would be so much easier if she just did it. She doesn't even understand that if she just did it, her life would be so much easier. Why doesn't she want to please me the same way I wanted to please my parent?"

And suddenly in that moment, it just hit me that, well, of course she does. Of course she wants to please me. Like, I know that. I know she loves me. I'm sure she wakes up every day wanting the same thing that I did. She's not waking up and immediately thinking, "I'm going to come up with 10 ways to make my mom angry today." No way.

She's probably waking up wanting the same thing — wanting her mom and her dad, the most important people in her life, to look at her and say, "You're awesome. You are the best kid in the world. Look at what you did. I'm so proud of you." And I realized she must be feeling that. And if she is feeling that, that means that all of these things that she's doing, she doesn't want to be doing them.

And that I'm the problem, not her, because I'm not supporting her in a way that allows her to be seen as this child who is in fact trying. And it hit me so hard, that realization, that I think I started to cry. And I felt so sorry for her. I immediately just saw her as this three — or four-year-old child who used to look up at me with the giant eyes of unconditional love before our relationship got so entangled.

And thought that poor kid is still inside and just wants that unconditional love from her mom and I needed to figure out a way to get it to her. And then I went down the hall and I apologized to her, which I think she was like not trusting for a minute.

Jessica: Like, "That's not what you do."

Merriam: Right. I don't remember my exact words in the moment, but the message was something like, "I see you. I know you're trying. I know this is really hard and frustrating for you and I think that we need to work together to figure out what you need and I'm going to do better."

Jessica: And what was her reaction?

Merriam: I think she just stared at me and was like, "Yeah, whatever, Mom." Which is of course another one of those moments where it's like, "I'm having this thing where I'm telling you I'm sorry, we're working together, I want you to say that back to me now."

Yeah, actually, I didn't need her to say that back because it really was a realization that this is not her problem. This is mine. I'm the one who's defiantly wanting a different child than the one I have and I've got to find a way to just unconditionally love the child that I have and to recognize that her behavior is not defiance, it's not willfulness, it is a lack of skills and my job is to help her with those skills.

(12:12) The turning point in letting go of rigid control and focusing on building a supportive connection.

Jessica: How did you do that? I mean, when she basically gave you the look of "put your money where your mouth is," how did you put your money where your mouth is?

Merriam: Well, I took a good hard look at the ways in which we were attempting to support her already with say, homework and things like that. I took a look at what were the biggest areas of conflict. And then took a look at whether the supports that were in place were to support me or actually to support her. Because supporting me looked like, "Finish your homework," but supporting her looked like, "Get as much done as you can, and that's it."

The other thing — this is probably another epiphany that I had which made my life in the end so much easier and our relationship a thousand times better — was just let go. I was so tightly wound around making sure that I created the best possible human for this world and that she had all the skills and she knew what she had to do and that she obeyed and she listened to me.

And that we got to school on time and her homework was done and her hair was neatly brushed or whatever the things are that you as a parent find super important that you might be in conflict with your child around. And none of it is the end of the world if it doesn't get done, with the exception of maybe violent behavior toward a sibling or another.

But all of the other things at the end of the day were things that would wind up sacrificing not only her self-esteem but also our connection. And her ability to connect with me, feel seen by me, feel unconditionally loved by me at the end of the day was going to be the thing and probably the single best thing that was going to turn her into that adult I so desperately craved. It wasn't combed hair and sitting through dinner and helping with the dishes.

So I let go, collaborated more with her rather than talking at her. I came alongside her, asked her more questions. "What do you think would work for you in this situation? Where do you think you're struggling?" And I had a sense of humor about it.

Jessica: Did you have a sense that, "Okay, this approach is working"?

Merriam: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, not only for her but hugely for me because because I had given myself permission to let go, then I wasn't constantly carrying around this sense of failure. I set a very low bar for myself at that point and the bar really became more: how connected am I with my daughter? What's our relationship like right now?

Am I somebody that she wants to come and talk to and share her problems with? Because she now sees me more as a coach and less of a prison guard, and an ally and an advocate, not an adversary. That became the bar, not how's my child behaving.

Jessica: It's so interesting when you talk about kind of reframing things because there's a part of me when I think about my own kids — one of my kids in particular — and it was like, I see what she's doing and even though I know maybe the reasons why, what do you do when it's still not okay with you what the behavior is?

Merriam: Right. So that's when I like to introduce some form of maybe restorative justice, what I call. First, of course, I think hopefully we all know by now that in the moment is not the time to dissect what happened because tension is high, emotions are high, and you're not likely to get the interaction that you're hoping for.

But once everybody's calm and you can maybe go back and have a conversation about what happened. And I think in those moments, it's important to allow the child to even come to an understanding of: what was going on in your mind right before that happened? And if you could do it over, would you do it in a different way? Like, what would that look like?

And okay, so now it's happened, what do you think might be a good way to help fix it? And allow them to be part of the solution, not just get in trouble over it. So for example, Sharpie to the chair, if it's cleanable, might look like being involved in the cleaning of it. If it's totally destroyed, it might look like earning money to contribute toward the purchase of a new chair.

But not, "You're a bad kid because you did this and now your punishment is you have to replace the chair." It's really still coming at it with an understanding like, "Gosh, I can really see that you wish that hadn't happened. And that if you could redo it, you would. I understand. I understand that you kind of lost control in the moment and it happened before you even realized it and I'm sorry. I'm sorry that happened for you. But now let's figure out how to solve it together."

Jessica: There's a gentleness to this approach and I'm curious if you ever had that fear inside of, "Uh-oh, what if I'm being too gentle with this?"

Merriam: At the beginning, yes, of course there's that fear that if I — this is a big experiment, right — if I let go and have a sense of humor and I'm not on top of them to make sure that they learn how to be good humans, then they might wind up living in my basement for the rest of their lives and can't function.

And I'm here to say that didn't happen, so my experiment fortunately for me worked. But yeah, it wasn't without a certain amount of fear that I knew I was taking a risk in letting go of the controls. But I also knew the controls weren't working either. So they were headed for a life in my basement as it was.

Jessica: I'm curious about your daughter now, your eldest daughter who you said is 30. Do you ever as two adults talk about those early years and talk about the frustration and the "I hate you"s down the hallway?

Merriam: Oh, yeah. Yes. It's fascinating, too, to recall some of the bigger intense emotional moments and as adults dissect them and hear what was going on. "Do you remember what was going on for you at that time?" And to hear her side of what she recalls feeling as a child in those moments.

There was a moment where we had a friend living with us briefly and suddenly her jewelry went missing and it wound up scattered all over our yard. And it turned out that my daughter had taken the jewelry and my friend really thought my daughter purposely stole her jewelry and she wanted her punished. And my daughter was so upset that she ran away. She was probably nine or 10 at the time.

She was, "I didn't mean to do it, I didn't mean to do it." It's like, "But you did it, so what are we supposed to do with this?" And as an adult looking back on that moment, she says that the last person to stay in that room was her grandmother. And she didn't even remember that my friend had moved in. And when she saw the jewelry, she thought it was her grandmother's left behind.

And she was just playing with it. So she hadn't intentionally stolen my friend's jewelry or anything. But she just couldn't verbalize it at the time and she just knew she was in trouble and she sort of froze.

Jessica: It's incredible. It sounds like you built the foundation for an open and honest relationship with her.

Merriam: Oh, yeah. I mean, I just marvel at the adult that she's become. I think she's a beautiful human being. She's so funny, but she's a beautiful artist and turns out she's a scientist. She wound up majoring in the science fields and she's fascinated by scientific things as well as creative things.

And she still struggles with her ADHD, but she has put the supports in place that she needs to function in her days. But at the end of the day, the fact that she calls me on her drive home from work just to download her day is what I cherish.

Jessica: Merriam Saunders, thank you so much for joining me. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.

Merriam: Thank you for having me.

Jessica: Thanks for listening to "Everyone Gets a Juice Box". The show is hosted by me, Jessica Shaw. It's produced by Julie Subrin, and Anna Rothschild is our senior producer. Video is produced by Max McKenzie and edited by Lance Johnson. Our associate director of content development is Calvin Kinney.

Briana Berry is our production director, and Neal Drumming is our editorial director. If you have any questions for us or ideas for future episodes, write me an email or send a voice memo to podcast@understood.org.

The show is brought to you by Understood.org. Our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

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