How neurodivergent kids helped build a better children’s museum

Rainy Saturdays just got a whole lot better. Leslie Bushara, chief program officer of the Children’s Museum of Manhattan, reveals how she’s taking notes from neurodivergent kids and their parents to build a space that’s welcoming to every kind of learner, including yours. From muted paint colors to reimagined animations, Leslie shares what happens when you actually listen to kids. 

• Watch: First-generation parents, neurodivergent kids, and redefining excellence

• Listen: The hidden grief of parenting a neurodivergent kid

Jessica Shaw: Every parent knows those rainy Saturday's when you are like, "What am I going to do with my kids?" Parents walk in frazzled and then, "I want my kid to have fun. Let's have fun." And then already you are set up. You are stressed, they are stressed. So what we hope at the museum is we want you to come in and go, "Okay, I can relax."

Leslie Bushara is the chief program officer of the "Children's Museum of Manhattan," a legendary place that saved me on more than one rainy Saturday when my kids were young. Leslie's background is in education and theater, and for the past few years, she and a team of experts have been developing plans for a whole new "Children's Museum of Manhattan," slated to open in 2028.

One of the things that most excites me about this is the way the museum is taking input from kids who learn and think differently, and from their parents and caregivers. I have been so excited to talk with her to learn more about those conversations and about plans for the new museum. This is "Everyone Gets a Juice Box." I'm Jessica Shaw.

Welcome, Leslie.

Leslie Bushara: Oh, thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

Jessica: Your background is in education and theater, and you've been at the museum for 20 years. Have you noticed a shift in education, in museum education in particular, as far as we need to be there for our neurodivergent kids?

Leslie: Yes, I have. I think in the last I would say 10 years, there's really been a look within children's museums to see how can we make our spaces more engaging, more inviting, and more inclusive. It can be as simple as the colors that we choose. It can be the materials that we're using. It can be access to things. I think everyone is trying to look at how to make children's museums — when you say it is a place for all children — then how do you really make it for all children?

Exactly. Walk the walk. But also learn and understand. Like, we had someone come from the autism center, and we had her look around the museum and tell us, you know, what do you think is working and what isn't? And she said, "You know what I'll tell you? The biggest thing is that you don't think that our children can come to the museum."

So it was a really interesting moment to pause and say, "So what — what would make that?" And she said, "Well, you could look at different times to invite families when the museum isn't as busy. But don't push them off into a corner and say your kids can only go to this floor. Children, neurodivergent children, can go to any of the floors. It's just a question of sort of how many other kids are around and the tone."

So it was really interesting to sort of look at the museum not as having to make other space, but how do we make the spaces that we have inclusive of all?

Jessica: I have so many questions about what you just said. First of all, what are the colors?

Leslie: Okay, so here's a good thing to know. There are primary colors that you think about in early childhood, and they're bright, right? You have the reds and you have the blues, and they're all wonderful. But when you're looking at developing a space where you're going to have lots of different children, one way to look is: what are the things that might calm us down?

So we don't use the primary colors. We will take colors like a purple or a green or an orange and put a little wash of white paint in it. So it's a little bit muted. It is still warm and welcoming, but it doesn't overwhelm you. Like, we want our spaces to be lively and engaging, not chaotic and overwhelming.

And that goes for all children, right? I think there's also been a shift where people are more generous about lots of children have different needs. Listening to children and understanding different needs and not thinking there's something wrong with them, but thinking that's just a unique way that they learn has shifted. And I think that's a really positive thing.

To not look at, "Oh, my child's shy, that's a bad thing." That's not a bad thing. Look at how they're taking in the room, and they may not just run into that crowd, but look at their — their observing. Observation is a great skill for kids. It's a great skill as they go into school.

So how do we take those things that we looked at before as being obstacles and making them things that, oh, well, that's a great attribute. And then how do you build that into an exhibit — the physical environment — but also a program, right?

(05:00) JHow museums can help lower parent anxiety through design and flexibility.

Leslie: So maybe you have a circle time where not everybody has to participate, but maybe you can sit and watch for a while, and that's okay. So we train the educators not to always be pushing: "Hey, you have to do this. You have to do it that way."

I think that's a great thing about museum work as well is that you can look at sort of a more open — ended style. We're not rushing to get through the day as a teacher might or have to work with one set curriculum. So it gives us a little an expansive way to look at how to work with kids.

Jessica: My girls are older, but I think about when they were younger and I think about — I had moments at different, you know, we've been to a bunch of children's museums all over the country. And there have been times where I just thought, oh my gosh, so many kids are doing this one thing, and my kid is just won't sit down and do this whatever this thing is. But that's the only option for her.

It's interesting because now as I look back and even in talking to you, I never spoke to anyone about it. And I wonder if there are other parents who have felt like, "I as the parent am responsible for making this work for my kid even though it's not necessarily working for them versus the museum needs to be an inclusive place for my kid."

Leslie: I think what has always sort of saddened me with parenting is I think there's so much fear that we are all carrying with us, as well as the beautiful joy of raising a child. But you're always looking, I think in some ways, "Oh, my kid isn't doing that" or "That kid's reading" or "That kid's sitting in a circle and my kid isn't."

So we are starting to compare. You know, we want to protect our children and we want them to be happy and for all the right reasons. But I think sometimes going to places where they're sort of pushing that philosophy, or like everybody feels like you have to kind of do the thing that the others are doing, it makes parenting — it brings an anxiety.

And so I hope what we try to do at a museum is show you that on a floor where your daughters could have been, there could have been multiple things that your daughters do. And some of them could have been with the group that's doing it. They could have gone off on their own. They could have explored something, and all of those things, I hope, we would show you would have value in the moment.

So I think sometimes setting that up for parents, I hope, is helpful to them.

Jessica: I mean, what do the parents of neurodivergent kids come to you with and say, you know, "Leslie, we need this. We need this"?

Leslie: So some things that they've said are, "We need to know where there are spaces in the museum where if my child is really, really uncomfortable, where can we go? Where are the floors that we can go to where they will feel safe?"

"We also want to understand that your educators understand that, you know, my child is — just learns in a different way. And also what are the ways that you can not ignore what's going on with my child, but continue on with the program and let my child be part of it when they're ready?"

And I think that was one of the biggest ones. Like, we were doing a circle time and I was asking all the kids to sit, and I was reading a story. And then this one little boy — he was adorable — but he kept jumping up. Like you could tell, he just was jumping up and jumping up.

(10:30) How the museum uses Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences to create inclusive environments for all types of learners.

Leslie: So I said, "Do you want to help me turn the pages?" And so he was turning the pages. And he was getting a little, you know — I was a younger teacher then — I was like, well, maybe that's not a good idea. He was like pulling the book from me. But then I had him sit next to me and I worked with him the whole time.

And his mother came up afterwards and said, "I really appreciated that because he got so much out of that. Usually they ask me to just take him away." So I think it's about working with your educators, your team, to set up a space where you're not always asking people to leave.

But you're looking at, how can I be flexible? How can I expand the way I'm doing the work that I'm doing right now? So I also then asked the kids to stand up and shake their sillies out. Things like that where you are sort of leaning into what you see is happening with the child, seeing if you can meet them halfway and then get them back to the group. It's like being flexible that way, I think, is really important and not being so rigid with, "This is how children learn and this is the way your child must learn or they have to leave."

Jessica: Why do you think it took until — like you said in the last decade, like things have really shifted? What was the thing that changed the mentality as far as children's museums of, you know, it's like what you said at the beginning, how so many parents were told like, "You go to that room, you go to that floor"? What was the shift to, "No, you don't go to that floor. You stay on this floor and we bring this floor to you"?

Leslie: I think having an understanding of the complexities of early childhood, of the complexities of parenting, I think has opened up the thinking in the field to just naturally be more inclusive. Plus, I think there are not a lot of programs in places for neurodivergent children and families to feel safe and comfortable.

Certainly in New York. I mean, look, it is hard to go into a lot of these places, right? And I'm not saying on a Saturday or Sunday when it's rainy and it's super busy at the museum that I would, you know, think that would be the perfect time for you to come to have your first visit. But there are many opportunities and many moments when you would want to come and we would want you to.

Jessica: Every parent knows those rainy Saturday's when you are like, "What am I going to do with my kids?" That is like — you even just saying that, I feel like I have like PTSD from — from those rainy Saturdays here in New York. I know. You're like, yes, I know. You see the parents because the parents walk in like frazzled.

Exactly. Well, that's the other thing. Like, parents walk in frazzled and then, "I want my kid to have fun. Let's have fun." And then already you are set up. You are stressed, they are stressed. So what we hope at the museum is we want you to come in and go, "Okay, I can relax."

And then have lots of things, options for your child to be successful. And I — in being successful, it means things like maybe they share a toy with a kid for the first time, or they collaborate on an art project, or they do something on their own, or they take a step away from you and — and go do something and you're watching them and then you see them come back.

Like, those are beautiful parenting moments. And we want to be there for that. But in order to have those, we need to help people relax and calm down. That's where the space, the colors of the space, the layout, how we want parents to feel part of the exploration, but also have moments where you can sit and observe your child. I mean, that's part of parenting too, seeing how does my child interact with other kids? How does my child respond to things? What happens when my kid gets stressed? This also helps us gives us knowledge, I think, as parents into how my kid learns, what type of school or other environment would be good for my child. These are all great sort of moments to gather information for parenting.

Jessica: Yeah. As you're talking, I was thinking about there are so many — I mean, as you said, so many different kids have like a billion different needs, whether they're neurodivergent or not. And just as far as like this show and like the parents that I talk to and everything, there might be a kid who has ADHD who like needs a space to be one way. And there might be a kid who's dyslexic who needs a space to be, you know, this way or an exhibit or whatever. At what point do you like really lean in hard to like, "This is what this specific type of kid needs" versus "We want to be for everyone"?

Leslie: That's such a great question. So I think one of the things we start with is more around like Howard Gardner, you know, all the different types of intelligences, right? So you look at some kids are physical learners, some kids are audio, some kids are visual. And we start with that basis.

And that tends to cover a lot of what you just spoke about. So we will have spaces that are designed for kids who need to climb and who need to be very physical. We will also include spaces where it's a little quieter, where maybe there's — a little more of a — of a safe sort of nook sort of place. We will design things now that are backlit because we see that a lot of children — need that who are visually impaired.

So sort of taking the lessons that we've learned over the last 20, 30 years and putting them into an environment where we do try to cover all the different ways and styles of learning for kids. Now, we won't get absolutely everything, but I think what we try to do is cover the whole child, the whole experience of the way different children learn.

Like, so in our new building, every single floor, we believe as we're designing it, has something for all those different types of learners. And we play test it, meaning that we will test it with different kids. We will look at kids in all different types of schools in New York, all different types of learning, and test out some of these interactives. And listen, they're always the best testers because they're super honest and they will tell you right away if something works or they'll show you what's great — a new way that you never thought it would work that way.

Jessica: Yeah. We need to talk about play testing because I'm obsessed with it. And basically, you bring in kids and they — as you said, they test the exhibits. They test the space. Can you tell me about a few specific like play space moments where either like you observed something or I'm so curious what the kids' — what their feedback is?

(16:00) Play testing exhibits with children to refine them for diverse needs.

Leslie: So I've a couple of these. So I'll tell you one we just did a play test with the kids, and we took them to this really cool warehouse in Brooklyn where we were play testing something that is going to be on our first floor. And basically, it's a series of colors. It's an installation that is slowly revolving with muted colors — you know, to that sensory — where there's lights on the floor.

And we wanted to see — so the lights on the floor you can create new colors. You can make the lights into different shapes and patterns. And we wanted to see if it would be interesting for the kids. So we had a series of kids — we had kindergarteners all the way up to 10 year olds — come and test this out.

And basically with kids, what's so great about kids, you don't have to do, you know, tons of paperwork and all this. It's like, "Go and play. Tell us what you think." And they went in and did it. And what was amazing is, first of all, they were much more physical than we thought. So we thought, okay, we're going to have to do some things.

But their reaction to it was they all said something very similar which we took from it. They said, "Create a lava floor." And it was really interesting. I said, "What do you mean by that?" And they said, "Well, we want everything we touch to have an action and a movement in it. And then we want to be able to connect with somebody else and do it."

So they were sort of telling us that — that they wanted this to be more collaborative than it was, and they wanted it to be something that was sort of — not scary, but like stimulating and exciting and — and help them sort of move their bodies. And so it became a slightly different piece to what we were developing. And we're so excited to — to take that and then do the next iteration of what this will be.

And then another example is we have a talking dragon at the museum named Alfie, very, very  — 

Jessica: Name of my dog, just saying.

Leslie: Oh, okay. Well then you know. So Alfie we designed, you know, with all these, you know, academic advisors — which I love and all of that. And then we made him not too lifelike, but a little bit lifelike. And we had a tooth in his mouth because he was supposed to be a dragon and the tooth was supposed to come up.

We all as adults thought, oh my god, that's so cute and you put the letters in. We brought a bunch of kids in. And we said, "This is Alfie, this is so wonderful." And they were all afraid of the tooth. They started crying, they wouldn't feed Alfie. One little girl said, "He's going to bite my hand." And I was like, jeez.

So we chopped off the tooth, had them come back like a few weeks later, and they all loved Alfie. But if I had not play tested that, we would have spent the money on that, we would have opened with what we thought was a very authentic, wonderful, you know, everything research — based. And then that tooth would have made the whole thing not work. And now Alfie is beloved and they feel safe with him, her, they. And so that was — so those are two.

Jessica: Listen, you can plan forever. And then the reality is, not everything is going to go according to your plan. Can you think of anything with a neurodivergent kid, with like a play testing there, that maybe there was like, "Oh, okay, that's — this is how this kid who thinks or learns differently is responding. Let's adjust"?

Leslie: Yes. We also have an area where we're going to look at literacy with kids. And one of the things that we're looking at is sort of  a techy piece where they're making and developing their own stories and using animation and sound. And we had a group of kids come in, and one — two of them were neurodivergent.

And the sound level and the speed of the animation was not something they just — they weren't engaged. And so we said to them, you know, "What is it about it? Do you not like the characters? Do you not like this?" And they both said, "It's fast." And so we slowed down the animation and they were completely engaged.

We never would have thought of that on our own because it was, you know, clicking at a speed that we thought was going to work. But these are the things that we will slow that down so it will work for those children and it will work for any other child that comes in. So these are the ways to your question before of how do you make something for all children, but that also has some special tweaks to it to help.

Jessica: Wonderful. I'm so happy the very first thing you said when we sat down was — what parents saying that, you know, that sometimes the feeling was "You be over there." And any parent listening has had that moment, not necessarily with a museum, but with, you know, maybe in school or maybe at an after school program or on a playground. And it's really — it's so wonderful to hear that that's — this is the antithesis of that.

Leslie: There's no "over there." There's always "come when you can, come as you are. We are here, we will greet you as you are ready."

Jessica: Leslie Bushara, thank you so much and congratulations in advance on the opening.

Leslie: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Jessica: The brand-new "Children's Museum of Manhattan" will open in 2028. But if you're in NYC or have plans to come to town, you don't have to wait till then to visit. The museum already has lots of programming for neurodivergent kids.

That's it for this episode of "Everyone Gets a Juice Box." Subscribe or follow the show so you never miss a conversation and send this one to someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for listening. The show is hosted by me, Jessica Shaw. It's produced by Julie Subrin, and Anna Rothschild is our senior podcast producer.

Video is produced by Max Mackenzie and edited by Lance Johnson. Our associate director of content development is Calvin Knie. Briana Berry is our production director, and Neil Drumming is our editorial director. If you have any questions for us or ideas for future episodes, write me an email or send a voice memo to podcast@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordon Davidson. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.