Building a village for neurodivergent families (with Jessica Shaw of the “Everyone Gets a Juice Box” podcast)

In this final episode of In It, we talk with Jessica Shaw, who’s launching a new podcast called Everyone Gets a Juice Box — it’s about the beautiful roller coaster that is parenting neurodivergent kids. 

As a mom to two teenage daughters, Jessica reflects on what she wishes she’d known earlier, what she’s learned along the way, and why finding a community of parents who truly get it can be life-changing. 

To our audience: We’ve loved every minute of making this show. Thank you for listening, for sharing, and for being part of this beautiful community. 

We’re so grateful you’ve been in it with us.

• Read: How to find your parent support network

• Read: Asking friends and family for help

(06:30) Why a community of parents who get it is so important

(09:03) Managing your child’s care with a co-parent

(15:30) An actually helpful bit of parenting advice

(24:32) Gretchen and Rachel’s biggest takeaways from In It

(00:00) Intro

Gretchen Vierstra: Hello and welcome to "In It," a podcast for families with kids who learn and think differently. Here you'll find advice, camaraderie, stories of successes, and yes, sometimes failures, from experts and from parents and caregivers like you. I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.org.

Rachel Bozek: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer, editor, and mom who has definitely been in it.

Before we get started, we want to share that as we've mentioned over the past few episodes, this podcast, which we have been so proud to make over the years, has reached the end of its run. Today's episode is our last. Though, of course, our six seasons worth of conversations will always be available to you on our website, Understood.org.

For this final episode, we want to talk about how important it is to find your community as parents, especially when you're raising kids who learn and think differently.

We're also going to share more about a new show that's coming out from Understood.org called "Everyone Gets a Juice Box," hosted by Jessica Shaw. The show will feature conversations with parents raising neurodivergent kids and will touch on all the things you just can't chitchat about at school drop off. Whether you're looking for solidarity, strategies, or just a reminder that you're not alone, we think you'll love the show.

Jessica is a long time entertainment journalist who hosted the "Pop Culture Spotlight" podcast on Sirius XM for 11 years. She has two teenage daughters, both of whom have learning and thinking differences. We were so delighted to talk to her about the new show and share some insights as parents and as podcast hosts.

Gretchen: Well, hello, Jessica, welcome to "In It."

Jessica Shaw: Welcome.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to meet you both.

Gretchen: Yes, we're happy to have you here.

Rachel: Yes, thanks for joining us. So, as we just mentioned, this show is coming to an end. But your show is going to drop very soon. What can you tell us about it?

Jessica: Well, I think what we want for this show is to be a place where parents can come and talk about their experiences, and chances are I'm going to get that experience. I've been through it. My kids are 18 and 14. I am, as the two of you might say, in it. And so I get it, and I think I always felt like, especially when my kids were younger, that other parents were my people.

They were my people I could go to when I was like, "Oh, I need a way." And they were my people that I could go to to laugh and to celebrate and and so that's what I want this show to be. I want people to be listening and being like, "Yes, like nodding." Like I want people to get like a knot in their necks from nodding so strongly while they're listening.

Gretchen: So then, I take it you yourself are raising kids who learn and think differently? So, can you tell us a little bit about that experience and where you are in that journey right now?

Jessica: My kids are 18 and 14, so in many ways they're launched. And in many ways, I find myself talking to parents of younger kids and saying, "Hey, here's what I went through as a parent, and here's how I experienced things, and these were the things that were really tough for me as far as advocating, as far as gathering information, as far as just discerning what was good advice and what was bad advice."

And at a certain point, I mean, listen, if you're a parent, you're a parent whether your kid is a day old or 14 or 25 or 75. I mean, it doesn't stop. So we're all kind of still figuring it out. And the relationship changes. And certainly, as any parent of teenagers knows, teenagerhood brings with it its own set of challenges and joys and weirdness and on top of everything else.

Gretchen: Yeah. Rachel and I both have teenagers, and I've often said that in terms of like emotional regulation and needs and wants, that I sometimes feel like teenagers are just toddlers with cell phones.

Jessica: I hear you. And also, I don't I think in some ways, the teen years were a little bit easier for me than some of the younger years because...

Gretchen: Oh, that's good.

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, by no means is this a walk in the park. Don't worry. And you're not done.

Gretchen: Well, I, you know, I did teach middle school for 10 years, so despite my saying toddlers with cell phones, I happen to have a soft spot in my heart for teenagers. I actually really enjoyed working with them. So, yes, there are definitely pros and cons to everything.

So what stands out to you as a particularly hard chapter?

Jessica: I found the hardest chapter to be the early years, the years of beginning school of services, of evaluations of CPSE and IEPs, and all of the initials that a lot of parents know so well. And like, we wake up screaming in the middle of the night like, "IEP."

But I found that stuff very challenging and very lonely, to be honest. I think that there's I I love that now it does feel like there's more of a community. I know your show has been a community, and I hope that my show builds a community because that's the only way...

I mean, listen, you're people get through it. People figure things out, people read, turns out there's a lot of information on the internet. But it's different than talking face to face with other parents. And I will say for me, I was trying to navigate figuring out what my kid needed with my work responsibilities, with my home responsibilities. I mean, various things. So I felt like that was the most challenging.

And I also think that we get a little wiser as parents. We know we know what the flags are a little bit more as we get older. And I think for me, it was like just opening this door into something, and I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, who's who's going to tell me--like I'm hearing seven billion pieces of information, and I'm just not totally sure how to distill this and what to listen to and what not to listen to and what to like bump up to the to the top of the list of what I have to do and what to just be like, "Yeah, that might seem like a big deal, but it's really not at all." And how much to be that parent that's like, "Advocate, advocate, advocate," and how much to sort of take a step back and maybe observe for a little bit longer. So I think that that was the more challenging time.

(06:30) Why a community of parents who get it is so important

Gretchen: So during all that, when you mentioned IEPs, right, like, and obviously, that whole IEP and 504 process is very confusing, which is why it's one of the top things we cover on our site because it's so important. But during all of that, and you said you felt lonely and confused, like, what do you wish you had had during that process?

Jessica: I wish I had had other parents to be honest. And I did. In time, I found my other parents. Nice. Absolutely. But my other parents that up until that point that were my people, that were my, you know, my inner circle, they weren't dealing with the same things that I was dealing with. They had their own challenges, and all parents have their own challenges and joys and whatever. 

But I needed other people who were walking the same path that I was. And it takes time to find those people. You know, it's not like all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, my kid has an IEP." "Oh, your kid has an IEP too? Oh my God, besties." I mean, that's not life. And so it took a minute, and I will say some of those parents that I met through the process of figuring out my parenting are some of my closest friends now.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree that that time of like navigating all of ADHD journey, like starting it so hard, so hard because you also just feel like you really have no road map. Like you're just kind of like out there in the wilderness. You know, and even though there's all this like, "Oh, well, here's what you should do, here's what you should do." There is still no clear path. You know, there's like, "Well, I could go to this kind of specialist or that kind of specialist or, you know, go to this person in the school district, or that person." I heard that person's really nice. I don't know if they can really help me. And like, it is maddening. And then once you kind of like know what to do, it's like, "Oh, and now there's a two-year waiting list," you know, to to get an evaluation. And I feel like it's often not as long as people think it's going to be, but just even hearing that that might be what's going to happen or having someone tell you that in the first place is like it's a hard way to start.

(09:03) Managing your child’s care with a co-parent

Jessica: My husband is super involved, and so, yes, I mean, I think that very often it comes down to which one of us has a meeting at X time. Um, which one of us has time to fill this out. So, I mean, this is like, "Welcome to women in history," but a lot of times, I would say very often, it falls on a mom to kind of oversee the education and oversee the emotional welfare of a child and just to be the CEO of parenting. That is very real. I mean, that is breaking no new ground. Like everyone, this is one of those like everyone should be nodding right now and be like, "Yeah, yeah."

Gretchen: I know. I, you know, I'll say for me, I think it's really helpful to split work and such with a partner. And yes, I feel like there is a leaning a little more on the woman sometimes in a relationship. But the thing that gets me tired when you split the work is then having to fill in the other person on what happened. Yes. Or vice versa. Sometimes II'm like, you know what, I would love for you just to handle all that and tell me when it's over because the play by play is filling up too much brain space, and I only have so much brain space. I don't know if you've ever felt that way, but that's sort of how I feel.

Jessica: Yes, often in different scenarios. But it is, I mean, that might be for another show just about the gender differences of getting things done. Yes. You know? Who needs validation, who needs to report the step by step? I mean, yes to all of that. Sometimes it just needs to be handled. And sometimes it's just one person's doing this, one person's doing that.

I also think that in some ways with my own kids, there were certain ages that were much more on me, and there were certain ages that were more on my husband. I mean, there's certain things, like, please never, ever, ever make me take my kid to a birthday party. Like that was like my worst nightmare. I was like, "I don't want to make small talk. I don't want to be like watching my kid, making sure they're interacting in a way that like I feel positive about. I don't want to go through that." And my husband was fine with that. So a lot of it is like, "Figure out what works."

Gretchen: Yes. Yeah, yes. Yeah. I didn't want to go to the birthday parties either. They're the worst. Don't you love when they're like, "Oh, but don't worry, we brought in more coffee and pizza for the parents." And it's like, "Oh no, because what you should be doing is saying, 'We got your kids, go out and get coffee and pizza by yourself.'" Like, no one wants to stay. No one wants to stay.

Rachel: A hundred percent agree. Totally. 

So, for your show, as you're thinking about it, who would be your dream guest?

Jessica: It's hard to answer because I really do find that I have these conversations. I mean, I was just on a plane a few weeks ago, and I ended up talking to another mom, and we were sharing things about our kids, and that was my dream conversation in that moment. I mean, don't you sometimes you walk away from talking to another parent and you're just like it feels like it was soul nourishing in some ways. Like you just feel like, like, "Yes, I feel so understood." And I so understood that other parent. And you can see it in another parent's face when they're like, "Oh my God, you get me."

And so it's hard to say this kind of conversation, this kind of thing because I hope that my ideal conversation is one when I walk away from it, and they walk away from it feeling like, "We just shared something and opened up and maybe opened someone else's eyes to something or brought a different point or looked at something we'd both been through through a different lens." And you know, I also kind of feel like if the two of us or the three of us or whoever is having the conversation, if it works, then that means it's working for a lot of people. That means that a lot of people wanted to see that topic told through a different lens or just explored in another way. 

It's very easy for all of us as parents or as teachers to kind of, I mean, there's a lot to get done every day. So sometimes we kind of repeat the same truths to ourselves over and over and over and over and over. And then someone will come in and be like, "Oh, hey, but have you thought of it like that?" or "Hey, I went through something like that but a little bit different." and it just opens the experience up a little bit.

Gretchen: So when you've had those conversations, whether with another parent or even a teacher, a doctor, whatever, what's one really good piece of advice you've gotten that's really just like made your day?

(15:30) An actually helpful bit of parenting advice

Jessica: Well, maybe the best piece of advice is, and I happened to have just seen this person last night, and I this is someone who was not a I did not know her as a friend. She was a friend of a friend, and one of my dear friends connected me with her because I needed another parent who was going through something similar. And I still remember she said to me, "Jessica, you need to find your North Star. You are going to have people that are going to say, 'Do this, do that.'"

And the truth of the matter is, with parenting, there's no one right answer. And there's no, "This is the thing you have to do." You know, "Oh, do X to get to Y." It is not a math equation. It's ever changing, ever moving, a billion different variables. Can't believe how much I'm using math metaphors right now, but it is at all times. And you need to just decide who is your North Star.

And by the way, that might be a doctor, that might be a therapist, that might be a teacher, that might be your downstairs neighbor. But decide to yourself that you have this person, maybe maybe it's your clergy member, maybe whatever it is, have your North Star, and then stick with it. And then trust your instinct that you have a North Star, and don't waver. And for me, that was incredibly helpful.

Gretchen: Nice. I like that. And I like the "Don't waver" part, right? Because it's easy to get distracted. It's easy to think I'm doing it all wrong. No, stick with your gut.

Jessica: Yeah, and to say like, "Oh, well, this person I really trust said that, but I also heard this from this person. And, oh, I was listening to that thing, and someone said that. Or like, oh my God, but I did read this thing online." I know it's overwhelming. You can't do it. You just can't. You have to focus because otherwise you're just spinning. You're just spinning. You're spinning, and spinning is exhausting, and it's disorienting.

Gretchen: Yeah. So is there ever a time where I feel like the answer will be yes to this because I feel like that's what it is. But is there ever a time you've gotten some advice where you're like, "That was not helpful. Thank you very much, but no."

Jessica: I think I've been told different things in my life, and I think in some ways some of that is at least for me, growing up as a parent and as I think we all do in in whether it's in parenting or having a profession or whatever, you're a little baby at first, and you're you're figuring out how to navigate certain things.

And I think I was reluctant to dismiss things that didn't feel right to me that people said to me about my kids or whatever. And I think now if someone said something, I'd be like, "That's wrong. No. Yeah. No, moving on. That is absolutely not right and or not right for me. Right. And I'm not listening to that."

Gretchen: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like when you're first starting out parenting, it's a little harder to say, "No, that's not right for me," right? And everybody wants to give you advice because they see that you're new at it. And sometimes, again, that's overwhelming, and it's just too much information that you didn't ask for.

Rachel: Yeah. And like when there's that almost dismissive advice, I think sometimes, especially if it's from someone who maybe has not been in similar situations, or, you know, they just everybody's kids are different. And it's like, well, just have a little more structure. Did you set a consistent bedtime? Because I think that's your issue. And it's like, why don't you come on over at 8:30 and we'll see, let's see. My sister has a bumper sticker on her car that says "just." And we always laugh about it because I'm sure it's from some organization, some justice organization or whatever. But we always laugh about it because the extent to which people say, "Just do whatever." "Oh, it's so easy." It is like, "You have no idea."

(24:32) Gretchen and Rachel’s biggest takeaways from In It

Rachel: It's the end of the week. We've got the whole week behind us. What has been the hardest thing that you've had to work through as a parent this week?

Jessica: Well, I'm single parenting this week, and um, shout out to all single parents. Like just tremendous respect. I mean, tremendous respect. It's been kind of my challenge of the week is is navigating that. And also, I mean, for me, personally, being in the sandwich generation, I have kids that need certain things for me as a parent, and I have a parent that needs certain things for me as a child. So I would say, um, that's just been a real bowl of something. Yeah. That's exhausting. What about you guys?

Gretchen: Can I just share that my hard thing this week that I share was I actually had a really lovely weekend, um, prior. I had spent it with a best friend of mine from college. Um, and we just had a lovely girls weekend together. But then when you do that and you come back to the reality of work and parenting, and you didn't have the weekend to catch up on some of the chores and laundry and such that you needed to do, the zen feeling I had on Sunday afternoon immediately went away by Sunday at night.

Jessica: Here is where I'm going to ask you a question. I'm so curious what you guys think of that. To me, I always felt like when I was at my when my children were younger and I was at my most like figuring this out and and just like felt like I had 8,000 lists everywhere of things I had to do and call this person and make this appointment and whatever it was, there was no such thing as weekend. People would say TGIF. I was like TGIM. Like thank God it's Monday and you're back in school. That's always how I felt.

Gretchen: I 100% agree with that too. I guess for me because I was gone from the children all weekend, it definitely felt like a real weekend. But then coming, so Monday normally might feel like, "Oh, it's quieter. I get to do my work." Um, my mind was like, "Oh my God, but I never did this, and I never did that" because I was too busy having fun. So...

Rachel: And that's also like how like, you know, when there's a week off from school or even extended weekend, if there is not something earth-shatteringly exciting happening, that is that's no break. Like spring break when everybody's home. No, not break.

Gretchen: No, not a break. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Gretchen: But what was your big parenting thing of the week?

Rachel: I think the school year being like officially kicked in. I think we're here now. The novelty has worn off. Yeah. We're done waking up on time and all that is out the window. And I think it really kicked in this week.

Gretchen: Oh, yes. We're in the thick of it for sure. 

Jessica: When do you lock in as a teacher? Is it two months?

Gretchen: Yeah. You know, similarly to how I feel with parenting, I always felt like, um, you have to get through to Thanksgiving. So I always felt like the beginning is a sprint, and you know, so many meetings, and, you know, meeting with all the parents and getting everything settled and getting to know the students, that you really don't feel like, "Okay, I can breathe, and I kind of know what's going on now" for me, at least, until I said, "Thanksgiving break." And that's kind of how I feel when I when I started sending my own kids to school. I was like, "We got to get to Thanksgiving break." Once we get there, then we'll have a little more smooth sailing, but we got to get to Thanksgiving break.

Jessica: Yeah. So was there anything else that you wanted to talk about or tell us about as we wrap up our conversation with you, which has been so fantastic.

Gretchen: Yes.

Jessica: I want to ask you, from the point where you started doing this show until now, what's been the biggest takeaway for both of you?

Rachel: Wow. Biggest takeaway. I will say that it's a little cliche, but it is very real that that idea that you're not alone, that feeling like you were talking about before, like that you're kind of just like by yourself figuring all this stuff out. And you're not. And that has been kind of a really important reminder that has just come up, you know, like episode after episode with all the people. And we've interviewed, you know, some really amazing, smart people who have kind of seen it all, you know, in this world of ADHD and dyslexia and, you know, all the different things that we've talked about. 

And it's just like anybody dealing with those things or anything kind of like in this universe, you're not the only person dealing with it. And that has been really important for me to hear and remember. And it's been such a gift to be able to talk to all of these people also with my own real questions. So that I think that is really important takeaway for myself, but also for other people to know, you know, as they go back and listen to old episodes of our show and continue with listening to your new show is is that, you know, there are other people who get it, and you can find them.

Gretchen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think, you know, um, I love it. I think I became a teacher long ago because I love learning. Like if I could just learn and be in school all the time, I would. And I loved learning from all of our guests, whether they were parents or experts. Um, all of them had such amazing things to share, and it did teach me so much about the world and just how different people are. Um, and it made me think, "Gosh, um, I could have been such a better teacher if I had had all these conversations before I started teaching because it really does open your eyes to the fact that like the world is set up in one way and not everybody is going to, you know, gel with that way and that we really have to be open to thinking about how to make the world work for everybody, including school." So I've loved learning everything.

Jessica: I love that.

Rachel: Yeah. Thanks for asking that because it was nice to think about.

Jessica: Yeah, going into this, that's how I feel. Like, I feel like I want to think differently in six months from now and have my eyes or my heart open to something different a year from now. And there's something the prospect of being able to talk to the two of you, talk to other parents, talk to other teachers, just other people walking this parenting path is really special, and it's really a privilege. And it's fun. And it's so fun.

Gretchen: Totally fun. And yeah. Well, Jessica, thank you so much for being here. It's totally fine. It's totally fine.

Rachel: It's totally fun. And Julie. Shout out to Julie.

Gretchen: And Julie. Yes, Julie has been so awesome to work with. And thank you, Julie. I know she's not going to say...

Rachel: You're welcome.

Gretchen: I know. Well, I just want to say thank you for talking with us today, Jessica. It's been really great.

Jessica: I want to thank you both. It's been an honor to get to talk to both of you, and thank you, thank you for having me on. And it was just really really nice to talk to both of you. And just I mean, you know, parent bonding is like it's just where it's at.

Rachel: Yes.

Jessica: Parenting bonding and podcast host bonding. That's listen, that is the dream.

Rachel: There we go.

Gretchen: So Gretchen, that's a wrap on "In It."

It is. Oh Rachel, I'm so glad that I got to bring you along to co-host the show with me.

Rachel: And I could not thank you more for doing that. What a what a special thing, and and what a surprising way to go from, you know, a kind of cool freelance editing gig to like, "Hey, maybe we can do this podcast together."

Gretchen: Totally. Thank you. It has been so, so awesome.

And I do want to give a shout out to our original "In It" hosts, Amanda Morin and Lexi Walters Wright. They started hosting this back in 2018.

Rachel: Wow.

Gretchen: Yeah.

Rachel: And a reminder that the full archive, all six seasons, will still be here for you any time you want to go back to a favorite episode or discover one you might have missed. Okay.

Okay, well, we've said it before, and we'll say it one more time, and I'm not going to cry. Thanks so much for listening today. If you have any thoughts about this episode or any episode, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us at init@understood.org, and yes, we will get your email.

Gretchen: And check out the show notes for this episode where we will have more resources and links to anything we mentioned.

Rachel: This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

Gretchen: "In It" is produced and edited by Julie Subrin, with additional production support from Cody Nelson and Andrew Rector.

Justin D. Wright mixes the show, Mike Errico wrote our theme music, and Briana Berry is our production director.

Rachel: From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson.