From ADHD intensity to steady ground — and into disability theology (Ange Nolan returns!)

Back by popular demand… it’s Ange Nolan! Ange returns to ADHD Aha! to share how her ADHD journey has evolved since we last spoke. That includes her decision to study disability theology and help make worship spaces more supportive for neurodivergent people. 

Going back to school brought up old memories of past academic struggles. Ange talks openly about navigating those feelings with more clarity and self-understanding. She also gives an update on her personal life — this time, celebrating a calm, steady relationship that looks very different from the intense dynamics she experienced in the past.

• Ange’s first interview: ADHD, loving intensely, and impulsivity

• A guide to ADHD and emotions

Ange Nolan: I was talking to our conference minister and I told her I couldn't believe how many people came and she said, "Obviously there's a need for this message." So that really gave me some more power behind what I'm doing to be an advocate for neurodiversity and ADHD specifically.

Laura Key: This is "ADHD Aha," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org, and as someone who's had my own ADHD aha moment, I'll be your host.

Hi everyone, and welcome back to "ADHD Aha," the show where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD.

My guest today, Ange Nolan, will be a familiar voice to some of you, hopefully many of you. Ange was a guest on an early episode of "ADHD Aha" called, "ADHD, Loving Intensely, and Impulsivity." Her story had huge emotional resonance for our listeners. So we wanted to invite her back to see how she's doing and to get more of her fantastic insights. Ange, welcome back. I'm so happy to see you.

Ange: Hello, it's so good to see you. I feel like it was just weeks ago, and then also decades ago.

Laura: I know, right? The truth is that it was somewhere in the middle. Yeah. Ange, I'm hoping that I can embarrass you a little bit to start the show.

Ange: Sure.

Laura: I want to read some of the messages that we got from listeners about your episode.

Ange: Oh yeah, that's great.

Laura: So embarrass in a good way, that maybe make you blush. So this one came in from Brittany. She said, "Wow, the emotion I feel after listening to Ange's story is unexplainable. I was diagnosed one month ago at the age of 42 with ADHD. I hit rock bottom in January and the journey has been hard. Her journey sounds so much like mine, but so different. It's giving me insight that I have never had."

Ange: Oh, thanks Brittany. You got this.

Laura: And now here's the second one. This one is from David and we had more than this by the way. David said, "Ange's episode was my aha moment. Amazing. I had to replay the podcast a few times to really let the words sink in and enlighten me." He goes on and then later says, "Laura, Ange says she still has five pages of notes and talking points, so please let's get her back on the show to share more of her insightful perspectives."

Ange: Oh, wow.

Laura: And —

Ange: That's amazing. Thank you.

Laura: How does that make you feel to hear those?

Ange: That makes me feel really good.

Laura: You know, people love you because you were really real on that episode, Ange. You were really candid, you were vulnerable, which I appreciate and I know is not easy to do. And I think you shared some of the harder truths about ADHD and in particular how it can relate to relationships and the intensity that can come with ADHD, especially for women. How did you feel after doing that interview?

Ange: So I felt really like a weight had lifted off of my shoulders to be able to express myself in a way where I felt like I had space and agency to do that. And then when I listened to it, and you even told me this, I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. I was really shocked because I feel like it, you know, it really did give me an opportunity to speak at my most authentic core, and I don't know, I guess I really shocked myself being able to listen to myself just in real time thought, not prepared notes with, you know, a documented paper of what I was going to say.

I felt really secure, I think in my diagnosis and really certain that I was going the right direction. And so I really appreciated that you gave me that opportunity.

Laura: You know, our organization is Understood, Understood.org, and I want to ask you, did doing that make you feel more understood?

Ange: Absolutely. Yes. You all had shared a couple of letters that had come in after that, and then just you're sharing Brittany and David's notes and people that I have shared the episode with who have come back and talked to me about it. I feel like being understood was definitely central because they took away from it exactly what I feel like we're hoping to accomplish here.

Laura: Absolutely. If you could describe in one word what it feels like to be understood, what would it be?

Ange: One word.

Laura: I'll allow a hyphenated if you.

Ange: In absence of the perfect word that I'm looking for, I think freeing is what it looks like. Being unlocked maybe, uncaged.

Laura: I love that. Unlocked, uncaged, freeing. I allow three. This is, they're all good.

(05:02) Pursuing a master's in divinity while working full-time.

All right, so tell me, what's been going on? What's going on with like school and work? I know is a big piece of your story these days.

Ange: Yes. So last time we talked was in 2022, and I feel like I've leveled up multiple times in my life journey since then, but I'm currently in a seminary program and getting a master's degree in divinity, which is basically in ministry. And I'm in my second of three years. So it's a very long, extensive program. I'm a full-time student and I also work full-time remotely, which is nice because then I don't have to worry about drive time and I can hyperfocus and then once work is done, I can shift my hyperfocus into school mode, but it's exhausting and challenging.

Laura: Did you ever envision yourself studying this, going back to school at all?

Ange: Well, so I received my calling to go into ministry when I was in my 20s, which is a very interesting side story. I grew up as an atheist, and then I found God when I was almost 21, and I had a literal experience of God speaking to me after I reached out in prayer and said, "I feel so arrogant to ask you this, but if you're there, I want to know, I need to know that you're there."

And a few months later, on 9/11, 2002, I had an experience and God was speaking in my mind and talking directly to me and showing me signs and it was the most incredible and beautiful experience I've ever had. And a couple years later, I was at a retreat and I had this vision that I was going to be a pastor in my 40s. And so I'm like, I have 20 years to convince God that I'm the wrong person for this.

And that did not happen. We had some arguments and here I am in seminary. And when I was done with my bachelor's degree in education, I took a couple of master's classes in special education for the school district that I was teaching, but I didn't continue to pursue that. And so I never really saw myself going back to school, although I love school, I love learning and all of the different things that I get exposed to.

But going back to school as an adult who already has a career going on, who has a family, who just found out a few years ago that she has ADHD and, you know, taking full-time classes has been one of the most stressful things that I've ever done, not to mention all of the challenging things that we're experiencing in seminary to help us break down a lot of the stigmas and the boxes that we tend to shove God and religion into.

Laura: Is it bringing up anything for you, maybe any struggles in school that you had as a kid with undiagnosed ADHD?

Ange: Yes. Yeah. My first semester, I had my final exam, and my professor wrote me back and she said, "Angela, I don't know why you didn't cite your sources in all of your essays like I asked because this would've been like an exceptional paper." And I just stepped back and kind of laughed and said, "Yep, this sounds exactly right." Like I skimmed over the directions. It was a light bulb moment for me that was telling me, yes, this is something that I have struggled with before. And now that I can see the two halves together, it makes total sense.

(09:18) Disability theology and making religious spaces more inclusive.

Laura: Disability theology, isn't that the specific area that you're focusing on?

Ange: Yes.

Laura: And can you describe what that is, please?

Ange: I will describe it to the best of my ability at this time as a seminarian. So in my mind, disability theology is the study of theology from the perspective that people who are differently abled are still seen and loved and cherished by God and are made exactly in God's image even still.

And the reason why that's so important is that over the centuries, and in some denominations still and in some religions still, disability is seen as not created in the image of God, that there's something wrong. And so disability theology is reshaping what that looks like and healing the harm that's being done in that space.

Laura: Did your experience draw you to that area?

Ange: While I don't think that I've ever been in a space that has discounted who I was because of having ADHD, I've seen and heard stories from other people who have had that experience. So I think that it's very important that I continue what I feel is my mission to break down the stigma of ADHD and continue to advocate in all spaces that I can. And my current space is doing that in a religious context, especially in a worship context, because I feel like in a worship space, that has a potential to not be life-giving to people, especially people who are dealing with neurodivergence or other unseen disabilities.

Laura: Tell me more about what that, what that means in a worship space, like the actual space, making it more accessible for neurodivergent people or people with disabilities, or is it something that plus other things?

Ange: Yeah, so it's interesting because I just had a conversation with one of my coworkers yesterday whose son is autistic. And she is wanting to give him an opportunity to go to church and experience church. And the church that she attends has a lot of people, it has a lot of sound and noise, and it's very different from what he is used to. And so she asked, I believe the pastor of the church, "Do you have a watch room, like a quiet room where nursing mothers might go and can still see the sermon and experience the worship, but in a quieter space?" And they said, "Oh, we don't have a space like that."

And I thought, oh my gosh, this is huge, you know, to be able to offer something like that would not only benefit somebody with neurodivergence, it could benefit people who are grieving and don't want to be around a bunch of people, but they still want to be in that space, or like she had said, nursing mothers or anyone who just feels like, "I want the experience, but I don't want to be in the crowd."

I know a lot of places have Zoom services, but it's not the same as actually being in that physical space because there's something sacred about entering a space that gives you all the feels sometimes.

Laura: You're making me think about universal design and how you can design, say a space like that, you know, with someone in mind, but it's actually helpful for many people that you may not have even considered needed a space like that.

I imagine, Ange, that opening yourself up to going back to school, to going to seminary, you know, studying what you're studying, and given what you just shared about your journey with God and with religion, that it must take a lot of self-acceptance and self-awareness to be open to doing that. And my question for you is, how much has your ADHD journey and diagnosis played into building that or breaking down or building that self-acceptance and self-awareness in your life to allow you to be where you are today?

Ange: So one of the big struggles that I have is dealing with kind of an imposter syndrome and rejection sensitivity dysphoria situation all the time, because not only am I in a learning space again with a new understanding of how I work, but I'm in a space with people who, in my mind, have known their whole lives that they're going to be in that space and grew up in some sort of biblical context and know all of the things. So I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm coming from two deficiencies. I'm coming with this learning deficiency and I'm coming with this background that I don't have.

I was not raised in a church. I was not raised on the Bible. My relationship in religion has been very personal. And so I really struggled with giving myself the credit and in knowing how I've had to empower myself with ADHD and realize that I have a story to tell and I have a responsibility to advocate, allowed me to also kind of be a cheerleader to myself in that aspect too. Like, sure, I didn't come to seminary with all of this background knowledge. I'm not already in a church in ministry, have read the Bible back to back, and know all the stories.

However, that's also a good thing because I don't have to unpack a bunch of stuff that has been embedded in a lot of times harmful embeddedness. So in a way, I'm coming in with a fresh perspective, which I feel ADHD has always offered me. I work very well in an unknown environment where I can kind of explode it and look at it from all sides instead of already having a bias that I really have to work against to make space for growth.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, no, that's beautiful. Can you remind me when you came on "ADHD Aha" the first time, was that the first time you shared your ADHD story publicly?

Ange: Yes.

Laura: Have you shared it since then?

Ange: Not in such a public space. So I was asked to speak at a seminar, basically. We have conferences that all of the churches fall into. So all of Southern Illinois is in this conference. So I was asked to speak about ADHD and neurodivergence in front of anyone who wanted to attend this seminar. And I was so nervous and I think 70 people ended up coming into my space and I did not expect that.

Laura: You expected there to be fewer people there.

Ange: Right, like maybe three. Okay.

Laura: Okay, okay.

Ange: We had to bring in more chairs. I don't know that it was 70 people.

Laura: Wait, they had to bring in more chairs?

Ange: Yes. And at that point, I was just like, "I'm not going to talk at all about my notes because there are so many people here who are here for a specific reason and I'm going to figure out what it is." And of course, like in my little blurb, they mentioned something about RSD because I really wanted to talk about RSD and how that looks.

Laura: Rejection sensitivity dysphoria. Yeah.

Ange: Yes. How that looks in a worship space because I think that it's really important for people in the congregation and for our clergy members to realize that if someone's dealing with RSD and they're misreading cues all the time, then there's a good possibility that they might not come back to church. And that's something that I feel was really important to address. But what I didn't expect was that one of the pastors would tell me his story about how he has ADHD and deals with RSD and what that looks like as a pastor having RSD. And I thought, oh man, this is definitely a new perspective.

Laura: Wow.

Ange: But yeah, I was able to share my experience in a panel beforehand and then to the group of people that had come to engage with me and another speaker who was speaking more towards autism. But yeah, I don't think that there have been any other big public spaces that I've talked about it.

Laura: That's big enough, I think Ange, that's a...

Ange: Yeah, that was huge.

Laura: That's a really big deal. What you said actually gave me chills. The connection between rejection sensitivity and worship, and how difficult it must be to be someone with RSD and to feel rejected even within a community that is supposed to be, you know, a healing place for you. I'm so glad that you spoke about that. I'm sure that it was really insightful and helpful to the people who attended. Did you get any feedback afterwards?

Ange: I was talking to our conference minister and I told her I couldn't believe how many people came and she said, "Obviously there's a need for this message." So that really, wow, gave me some more power behind what I'm doing to say, "It's not just in my head, you know, I'm not just being self-righteous and thinking that this is important to talk about, especially in a space that I'm being called to be into." I feel like at the same time, I'm also being called to be an advocate. And those two can definitely come together and hopefully be impactful and help other people really scrutinize practices and challenge the ways that they can make more space.

(19:18) An update on relationships

Laura: When you came on the show originally, a big focus of our conversation was on relationships, romantic relationships, personal relationships. If you're open to updating us on where you are in your relationships right now, I think that our audience would be eager to hear from you on that.

Ange: So my husband and I are still together, which is wonderful. And I feel like when I say that, and especially considering we are, you know, celebrating almost a decade of being together, people are probably thinking that's small potatoes, you know, and I come from a family. My parents have been married for 40 years, I think. And for me, it's huge because our relationship has surpassed every other timeline of any relationship I've been in. And as I shared before, I've been in a relationship since I was 15 years old. I've not spent time really by myself, not in a relationship.

So it really speaks to the relationship that we have together and the drive and ambition we have together to make things work. It obviously hasn't been easy, and we've had challenges and I think that through those challenges has really helped us step up to the plate and really break down some of the barriers that we had, maybe the masks that we might have still been wearing in our relationship, but really come together and be vulnerable with each other. And I don't think that we were doing that as effectively before.

Laura: You talked at that time a lot about the intensity of relationships. And at that time you were married to your current husband. Even at that time you were kind of reflecting back at previous relationships, but how do you feel like you've grown as a partner over the last few years?

Ange: Well, there's one thing that I have discovered that's very interesting with my marriage to my current husband. I feel like in previous relationships, if I can say it this way, I've really dealt with a lot of emotional outbursts. And with my husband, I have not done that. And I don't really know why that happened, but I feel like I'm able to really, I call it my dragon lady self. Like I'm really able to keep that under wraps.

I resonate a lot with Marvel's the Hulk and that, you know, it's just a flip of a switch and it's instantaneous rage out of nowhere that nobody expects.

Laura: My reference point for that is Seether, remember the Veruca Salt song from the 90s, the song "Seether"? Yeah, that's what I call it. You call it your dragon lady, for me it's Seether.

Ange: Yes, exactly. So there was a growth point, like we were together whenever I was diagnosed with ADHD, and the expectation was that he would hold space for me, but there was a moment of clarity where I realized I wasn't holding space for him. So being able to call myself out on that and realize that I needed to allow that vulnerability for both of us and also help him to embrace being vulnerable. It's not easy for certain types of people, I think especially for men.

And coming from a background where I could be very stabby with words, I had to make sure that I was really careful and deliberate to not be defensive whenever we had a disagreement about something, to really own my own personal feelings and be open about that. And I think that's really hard.

Laura: It is really hard. Yeah.

Ange: The big thing is vulnerability. I think we don't have enough of that in all of our relationships that we are in as a society. And so starting with just our personal relationships is a big step.

Laura: Have there been any changes to how you approach managing your ADHD since we last talked?

Ange: Well, I've had med changes, so that's definitely a challenge that I think some of us face. But I've tried to pay really close attention to what it looks like for us as women and having ADHD and specific things that our body needs as we, many of us, I'm sure know, it's difficult to remember to eat things, and then we don't understand what the fallout from that looks like.

Laura: It's huge. And I remember from your first interview, Ange, that part of your ADHD aha was seeing that ADHD iceberg graphic, like what are the symptoms — I'm using that term loosely — that are under the surface that people don't usually associate with ADHD or you can't see. And one of them for you was forgetting to go to the bathroom if I remember correctly. And forgetting to eat is right up there. I forget to eat all the time and it's not a like, I just, I just forget to eat and then I'm like, "What is the matter with me right now?" It seems obvious, but it's not.

Ange: I think that's something that we need to allow to fall away is like, "Well, these are obvious things, how am I so dense to this?" and saying, "No, it's not obvious to me." And I'm the one that I'm centering my focus on.

Laura: So yeah, and then we got meds updates, sleeping, anything else?

Ange: Sleeping. Yes. I think my first semester, maybe even into my first year, I'm perfectionist-based and I was really running myself ragged and I would stay up really late into the wee hours of the morning doing my homework and getting just a couple of hours of sleep. And I'm thinking, "I did this in college and I rocked at it," but looking back, maybe I didn't. And I'm certainly not doing it now. And so sleep is definitely important just, I mean, overall sleep's important, but to allow ourselves to focus, like I can't focus if I'm feeling tired and run down. So I would have to cut myself off and say, "No, if I don't get my assignment turned in tonight and it's due tonight, I'm not killing myself for it. I'm going to go to bed and I will turn it in tomorrow when I can actually think about what I'm doing."

Laura: Yeah, you know, you can spend six hours doing it right now and it'll be maybe like an ounce of quality work or you can spend one hour in the morning and it will be mostly quality work, right?

Ange: Right, right.

Laura: Yeah, I've gotten really good at that. Let me just tell everybody, our listeners, I'm really good at, I'm just going to go to bed. The problem will be there in the morning. I don't know what that says about me, but I've gotten much better at that in my life.

What's next for you on your ADHD journey?

Ange: Well, I am definitely going to continue my advocacy for ADHD, especially within our denominational space, try to help advocate for our communities, the congregations to find ways to open up to the communities and offer a space for people to feel like they can come and be themselves.

But also what I would really like to do is offer these spaces as a place for education where we can maybe host seminars where the general public can come in and listen to someone for free and hopefully then empower some people to feel like they can have a starting point.

That's where my focus is now, and I still have a year and a half left of school, so God only knows what that's going to look like at the end. Maybe I will find myself in a pastoral role or a chaplaincy role, but I definitely think that I'm being called to help other people find space for themselves.

And something that's really uniquely, I would say, important to me is in an interfaith space. So coming from an atheist background, I want to make space for people who may believe very differently than I now believe. So it's kind of a crossroads, I guess, where I want to make space for people in a faith and interfaith and no faith basis just where they can come and feel like they're a cared about human being who's treated with dignity. But also to encourage people who have unseen disabilities or seen disabilities to help advocate space for that as well.

Laura: I wish you all the best. I'm so happy that we've gotten this chance to reconnect. Yes. You were such an important guest in the "ADHD Aha" journey. We often cite your episode as one of our favorites. I'm just so happy to hear from you. You're doing really important things in the world. So thank you for being you and for coming back on.

Ange: Thank you so much for having me back and for the important work that you're doing.

Laura: Thanks for listening today. As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org or send a message to our voicemail inbox. You’ll find a link in the show notes along with resources and links to anything we mentioned in the episode.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

"ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Say "Hi," Jessamine.

Jessamine: Hi, everyone!

Laura: Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Alyssa Shea. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Production support provided by Andrew Rector.

Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. From Understood.org, our executive directors are Scott Cocchiere and Jordan Davidson.

And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.