When one twin has ADHD and gets labeled “the bad one” (Lisa McNeil’s story)

Lisa McNeil grew up being called the “bad” twin — the one who talked back and couldn’t do well in school. Her sister was the “good” one. It wasn’t until years later, when Lisa joined a Duke University study to earn some extra cash, that she discovered she had ADHD.

In this episode of ADHD Aha!, host Laura Key talks with Lisa about how that ADHD diagnosis reframed her childhood, why being a paramedic suited her brain, and how playing violin in fourth grade unexpectedly helped her with reading.

• ADHD and siblings: Tips from an expert

• How to deal with sibling rivalry when one child learns and thinks differently

(00:00) Intro

(02:19) Growing up as a twin

(09:22) The impact of music on Lisa in the fourth grade

(11:23) Early adulthood before ADHD diagnosis

(12:33) The Duke study Lisa took part in to be diagnosed

(16:02) How religion has affected Lisa’s relationship with her family as an adult 

(18:10) Life after diagnosis

(23:27) Outro and credits

(00:00) Intro

Lisa McNeil: She brought up years ago that she did not like it when people called me the dumb twin, or it's not always the dumb twin, it's like, who's the bad one? Who's the good one? That's always a question. And she was like, "You weren't ever bad, but I think that question that people asked us all the time made you think you were."

So when she tells me these things, it becomes more of an epiphany, like, "Wow, you're right. I wasn't bad. There was nothing bad about me. We were a lot alike."

Laura Key: This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org. And as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.

If you've ever compared yourself to someone else and felt like you came up short, then today's episode is for you. Today's guest, Lisa McNeil, wrote me and the "ADHD Aha!" team a letter, a beautiful letter that vividly captured this feeling. So much so that we knew that we had to invite her on. I'm going to read a little snippet of this letter.

"As a little girl, I knew something was very different about me because I have an identical twin who didn't have the same frustrations as I did in school. People used to ask, 'Who's the smart twin?' She made straight A's, so early on, I considered myself dumb. They would also ask us as little girls, 'Who's the bad one, and who's the good one?' You can probably guess which one I was — bad for being more outspoken. It stuck with me my whole life."

Do you see what I mean? That was so powerful, and it also made me realize that on "ADHD Aha!," we've never talked about twins before. So with that, I'm going to welcome our wonderful guest, Lisa McNeil. Lisa, how are you today? Thank you for being here.

Lisa: I'm fantastic. Thank you for asking me to come on the show. It's really changed my life, quite a bit.

Laura: Did it strike you a little bit to hear that email read back to you?

Lisa: Yeah, a little bit. And it's beautiful that I don't feel that way anymore necessarily, but it absolutely did change the way I lived my life.

Laura: Well, we're going to get into all of that and--

(02:19) Growing up as a twin

Laura: --let's start just, let's talk about growing up as a twin. So your twin's name is Lori.

Lisa: Lori.

Laura: And she's the younger one, right?

Lisa: Three minutes younger.

Laura: How much does that play into your relationship with her?

Lisa: Growing up, it's huge. It's totally a bragging right. It's a responsibility. You know, you feel like you're older, and you feel like you should be braver. You feel like you should take care of her. I feel like I did quite a bit of that, especially when we were really, really young.

Laura: I don't know that many twins. Is that common? Do people talk about like who was born first?

Lisa: It's bigger than I thought it was until I went to the twin festival. When I went to the twin festival, it all came to light. And we went home knowing what our roles are more so. I know that these days, parents are having twins and they're not telling them their birth number.

Laura: Oh really?

Lisa: I wonder how that's going to change them. Yes. Because it was a huge part. I mean, I would run to her classroom and I'd be like, "I'm eight years old, you're only seven. I'm eight, you're only seven." Like I would like leave my class to go find her because I was kind of busy like that. She was the baby of the bunch. And that's how the whole family treated her. Like she was the baby, even though she was only three minutes younger. It's interesting.

Laura: And that festival you're talking about, that's in Twinsburg, Ohio.

Lisa: Ohio.

Laura: That's where I'm from. And you just got back from one, didn't you?

Lisa: Yes, yes. It was last weekend. It was fantastic. So as I've grown older, I've even said, you know, because I feel like throughout our maybe early 20s or so, I was sort of the rogue one in the family. And I started saying, "Yeah, I might be the oldest twin, but she's the wisest twin." But I just kind of like to give her credit for, I have no idea why. I just want to pump her up.

Laura: Well, because you're a great big sister. There you go.

Lisa: Yes, there we go.

Laura: So what was it like growing up? Let's talk about the differences between you and what you remember.

Lisa: It all started in fourth grade. We moved from New Jersey to Greensboro, North Carolina. New Jersey seemed to be a lot more creative. I went to a school that explored many different learning possibilities, a lot of groups, a lot of games. We didn't have A, B, C, D, F. We had "meets improvement" or "meets expectations." So we didn't have the A through F grading system that was starkly different. Also, it was very hot down here and we didn't have air conditioning. We only had fans and the bathroom was in the classroom.

Laura: Oh. That sounds terrible.

Lisa: But they were also extremely brilliant kids. They were very studious. They listened to the teacher. They were quiet. And I felt pretty different. So my mind started wandering a lot. History class, I felt like it was extremely boring. Math was very, very boring. I couldn't catch on because if you don't catch the first parts of math, you're not going to catch the middle or the end, you know? So I felt behind and I got my first D on a report card. And I remember crying so hard that my mom just said, "Did you, do you feel like you did the best that you could?" And I thought about it and I said, "Yes." And she said, "Well, that's all that we can ask for." You know, so I didn't have parents that were punishing me for grades or anything like that.

Laura: That's a lot of transitions all at once. So you have a physical transition, you're moving from one state to another.

Lisa: Right. And the accents, Southern accents versus Northern was like--

Laura: So you've got a little bit of decoding to do there. The weather is different, and the heat sometimes can make people feel even more distracted. And then on top of that, fourth grade is a huge turning point for kids in school. So that's a lot on one kid all at once. How was Lori doing through this transition?

Lisa: Great. She had a teacher she fell in love with immediately. And she started to write stories. So creative writing became a huge part of her classroom. I would see her across from the class. My class was literally across from hers. And I can see her on the floor with their teacher and she's reading a book to them. And I'm like, I want to be in that class so bad. I feel like she had a wonderful fourth grade.

Laura: Did she do better with more traditional academic settings?

Lisa: Yes, she liked routine. She did not like it when we took a class trip or anything like that. She would literally physically get sick, whereas I was always like so excited to break up the routine.

Laura: Yeah, some novelty.

Lisa: We were very different in that way.

Laura: Have you talked with her about ADHD?

Lisa: I talk to her about ADHD all the time. And I feel like she might have like the smallest little touch of it when it comes to fidgeting. But other than that, I don't think that she has it. But she is a fidgeter.

Laura: It doesn't sound like she presented as much as you did growing up. Hence like you constantly being compared to your sister and like not measuring up to like the classic things that look good on paper. And you know, in the letter, you referenced how, you know, you were treated differently. Is that about when that started as well?

Lisa: Yeah, and I don't I think I was treated differently by people that barely know me. Just people in church, you know, it was a lot of people coming and going. My father also did a lot of traveling, so we would see lots of different kinds of congregations. And they would see twins and they'd be excited about it. And one of the first questions that they would ask us is, who's the smart one, who's the dumb one?

Laura: What a question. I'm so sorry. I'm chuckling because it's just so ridiculous.

Lisa: It really is. I mean, people compare twins' weight even at a very young age. Oh, she's the bigger one. That's not good. That's not good at all.

Laura: It's like they can't find a way to distinguish the two of you, so they need to find some sort of artificial way to keep it clear in their own head.

Lisa: Yes. Always putting us next to each other and staring at us, staring at us. By the time you're eight or nine years old, you're just like, when is this going to stop?

Laura: Yeah.

Lisa: She brought up years ago that she did not like it when people called me the dumb twin, or it's not always the dumb twin, it's like, who's the bad one? Who's the good one? That's always a question. And she was like, "You weren't ever bad, but I think that question that people asked us all the time made you think you were." So when she tells me these things, it becomes more of an epiphany, like, "Wow, you're right. I wasn't bad. There was nothing bad about me. We were a lot alike." I just was the spokesman. I had a lot of energy, you know? Sure, I was running around all the time. And maybe not always thinking things through, like we both had Snoopy penny or money, what is it called?

Laura: Piggy banks?

Lisa: Thank you. So we both had that. So they got really full. And then one day I was trying to get him out with a knife, and then I ran to the driveway and I was like, I've got an idea. And Lori ran with me and then I just smashed it on the driveway before I could think about it, you know? And I'm barefoot. And Lori was like, And I'm like, oh no.

Laura: Yeah.

Lisa: She saw me like be spontaneous in certain ways where she wouldn't be. Yeah, first one with the training wheels off, you know, I'm ready to get those training wheels off, ready to like ride my bike all day.

Laura: Yeah, and these are such innocent qualities, but then to get labeled because if it's such a binary that someone's got to be bad and someone's got to be good, then you're automatically the bad. And then you carry that with you your whole life.

Lisa: You really do.

(09:22) The impact of music on Lisa in the fourth grade

Laura: Tell me about music. The impact that had on your life in fourth grade. This is around that same time that we were just talking about. What happened?

Lisa: My sister became a creative writer. I wasn't necessarily looking for something to grab me, but in school I was not stimulated whatsoever. I hated Mondays. I cried every Sunday. It was just hard to get to school on a Monday. And then one day I heard violin from a distance. I didn't know what it was. I just said, "Wow, that's a beautiful song. I wonder what that's coming from." Of course, my distracted mind, it was probably social studies, and I was just like, "Man, what is going on? This is amazing." And then that song stopped and it started again in another room. And I thought, I think that person's coming to my room. And she did. This woman walked in, Lori Lloyd, and she started to play and she blew me away. And she said, "Who wants to join orchestra? You can pick violin, viola, cello." And I raised my hand and my mom got me a violin and got Lori one too. So Lori noticed at such a young age that it started causing competition between us and she did not like it.

Laura: Oh.

Lisa: She also thought that she attached herself to writing in fourth grade and I hadn't attached myself to anything yet. And she thought even though she liked playing violin, she decided not to play violin that year.

Laura: Wow.

Lisa: Yeah. And she didn't tell me that till five years ago.

Laura: Wow. I mean, that is some empathy and caring. Wow, amazing.

Lisa: We cared about each other very, very much.

Laura: So you started playing the violin and that changed your life.

Lisa: It really did. I went from a low reading group that year to a high reading group. I went from reading one word at a time to reading full sentences, but I wasn't comprehending because, you know, when you're reading notes, you can't just stop at one. Your mind has to flow forward. So probably within months of being in violin and just learning how to pluck, you know, in the beginning you're plucking, but you still, you have to look ahead. And I noticed that right away. I was like, I think it was violin that helped me read better.

Laura: You weren't diagnosed until adulthood though. Is that right?

Lisa: Correct.

(11:23) Early adulthood before ADHD diagnosis

Laura: So tell me about, I know, it's like, tell me about your life, like the 10-year period of your life in a few sentences. But tell me, tell me about that period of time between elementary school and then when you did get diagnosed. What was going on?

Lisa: I had a lot of interests growing up. I really was attached to science. That was the only honors class I took in high school. My brother was a paramedic when I was very young, and he told me a lot of stories. And so from nine years old on, I wanted to go to school to be a paramedic. And I did. In high school, I joined HOSA, Health Occupation Students of America. And I was able to leave class or start class early, like at 7:00. I was able to hop on an ambulance. I was able to see kind of that world. And I was tuned in completely.

Laura: Yeah, I bet.

Lisa: School was a different story. I made it, but it was extremely difficult.

Laura: But you had this extreme interest in like this one piece of what eventually infiltrated school with studying to become a paramedic, which is cool that you, that you dove into that.

Lisa: Oh, it was fun.

(12:33) The Duke study Lisa took part in to be diagnosed

Laura: When was the Duke study that you took part in? Because that was a big turning point for you. Is that right?

Lisa: Right. That was 10 years later. I was close to 30, right around 28 years old, I hopped off the truck and I joined a band. And I wanted to just have fun and travel and play music. So I'm always looking for ways to make money. And I saw an ad for adults that were undiagnosed with ADHD. Like, have you ever thought that you might be ADHD and never been treated? You can get $50 if you come to Duke. And Duke was right around the corner. I could literally walk or ride my bike. So I joined for the money in a way, but I also was very curious to see if I had ADHD. I thought I was. I had just never been to a doctor, and I didn't have insurance.

Laura: Right.

Lisa: So I was like, this is the perfect way. I think I stared at it for a little while too, like, is this really real? Like, maybe I can really be diagnosed with my money.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, listen, Lisa, when I was in college, I saw an ad for plasma donation. So done that too. And I did that. I was like, I can make 50 bucks. Okay. I was hustling myself, right? Yeah. Oh, that was not fun. That was very cold when they put the saline in you. Oh my gosh.

Lisa: Yeah. You had to sit there for hours, you know?

Laura: Oh yeah, that was not fun. Yeah. But it was 50 bucks though.

Lisa: It was 50 bucks. That went towards beer money and books. Yeah. But really brilliant of you to be like, "Maybe I can get the support that I need."

Laura: So how did you even know that you might have undiagnosed ADHD? Did Lori help you figure this out?

Lisa: No, I was on the ambulance and a really smart girl got hired, and she was in school for something and she was telling me that she had ADHD and that she took this particular medicine and what that did for her. And I was locked in on her. Her and I became very fast friends, but I also found out immediately that people treated that word "ADHD" as something stupid. So that kind of brought me back to my childhood. So this girl, she was kind of telling me, but somebody overheard her say that she was ADHD, and one of the paramedics said, "Oh, they have all kinds of words for stupid these days."

Laura: Wow.

Lisa: And she looked at him and then I looked at her and she's like, "You want to go outside?" And we went outside and we talked and we became very, very good friends and... Then I said, "Man, that would be kind of cool if I could get health insurance one day and explore that."

Laura: Yeah, what'd you learn about yourself through this study?

Lisa: So immediately when I started calling back a couple of times and they hadn't called me back, they were like, this is not usually a typical in the ADHD quality for you to be on it, right? And I said, well, I need money, and I know I am. Within the first day of being there and doing some of these computer tests, they were like, you are clearly ADHD. How have you gotten this far? And I'm like, with a struggle and a lot of heart.

Laura: And how long was the study?

Lisa: I stayed in that study for almost three years. They even sent me to New York and did a lot of different tests.

Laura: Wow.

Lisa: Yeah, it was pretty pivotal.

Laura: This was a study on ADHD and environmental factors versus biological factors. Is that right?

Lisa: Probably.

Laura: Yeah. I think you sent me a link to the study and I think that that's what it was about. I'm not very great at reading studies, so I'm not going to speak too much about the study right now. But I know that this is a study that did truly exist and...

Lisa: Yes.

Laura: And did you talk with Lori throughout the study about the study and what you were doing?

Lisa: I was separated from my family due to religion at that time.

Laura: Got it.

Lisa: From when I was 20 till I was 30.

(16:02) How religion has affected Lisa’s relationship with her family as an adult

Laura: That must have been painful.

Lisa: Very.

Laura: And you were raised, I think you mentioned Jehovah's Witness. Is that right?

Lisa: Yes, I was.

Laura: Tell me about that. Was there certain expectations that come with that?

Lisa: I think good ones. I really try to focus on the positives of my background. And we had to sit in a quiet environment. We had to learn. We had to participate. You know, it's not forced, but it's good to participate. We had to be on stage. I had to do speeches. And I think that that was pivotal in my personality. And gave me a lot of bravery and courage that I can be up on stage in front of people at a really pretty young age and talk to people. And then of course, we went door to door. So you had to have a presentation in mind and talk to strangers. So, you know, it gave me a lot of courage.

Laura: If you kind of opt out of the religion, are you not allowed to see your family? I don't, I don't know much about it.

Lisa: Well, according to them, if you're not repentant due to a sin, then you can get disfellowshipped from the congregation.

Laura: And does that mean no contact with your family?

Lisa: Correct.

Laura: So you're not separated any longer?

Lisa: No, I went back. I needed my family back desperately. I felt like it was affecting my body. I felt like I was starting to affect my heart. And I got scared one day also. I felt like I had jaw pain thinking about my twin sister.

Laura: Oh, wow.

Lisa: And I said, I have to get her back to save me. But I stopped going to meetings five years ago. That was a good move on my part. I had a lot of anxiety.

Laura: So you're able to still be in contact with your family while not being part of the church now?

Lisa: Correct.

Laura: I imagine that was really emotional for your sister as well, because you guys love each other so much.

Lisa: It was the worst. Just like divorce or like a death. It took a lot of repair. We've done a lot of work to repair and get to where we are. That's why we go to the Twin festival too. Like two years ago, we were getting to this particular spot in life and I was like, I think that we should go to this thing. She was excited about it.

(18:10) Life after diagnosis

Laura: So how did it feel to get diagnosed?

Lisa: It changed my life. When they first started giving me medicine, I was stressed out and I really needed Lori in my life. And I started going back to the Kingdom Hall, the church. And I started hearing things that were familiar from my childhood. And I was really attached to what I was hearing, and I felt like I could get my family back if I just continued to go to church. I started taking the meds around the same time and I thought, "Wow, I think the medicine maybe made me..." When I was reading, I could understand what I was reading. My comprehension was way better. I actually liked to study and I was like, "Who is this person that's liking to sit for an hour and study and write things down and write notes down and create comments?" And I was liking this full brain that I was feeling.

Laura: Oh, this full brain that I was feeling. I've never heard anybody describe it that way.

Lisa: It happens in another way, too, under an emergency situation. So a girl at work cut herself very badly several weeks ago.

Laura: This was at work at...

Lisa: Trader Joe's.

Laura: At Trader Joe's, where you are now.

Lisa: One of my coworkers, yes. I was coming in from lunch. I saw it happen. Usually, without medicine and without my brain fully on, I wouldn't have done this. I went straight to the computer, clocked back in while giving people directions. Somebody get her a seat, somebody get her another chair so she could elevate her leg, literally clocking in, not forgetting. That was wild to me.

Laura: Yeah.

Lisa: And I didn't realize it until after. Like, my goodness, Lisa, you clocked in when you did that. But I feel like my whole brain turns on and I get very calm in an emergency situation, because that's just part of my blood. And everybody at work told my captain really, really nice things about me that day. They were like, she just had it together and she had her team going and she just helped this woman and she helped everybody calm down. And so I also feel like my brain lights up in an emergency situation, similar to when maybe I feel my medicine working.

Laura: Oh, that's an interesting comparison. Yeah.

Laura: What are you most looking forward to learning about yourself as it relates to ADHD? Because you're still, like, we're all on this path, right?

Lisa: I really wish I could take some classes and get into some sort of help group or something. Even at work, there's a new girl who's just been diagnosed. She's starting medicine this month. And we have like a little group of people who have ADHD who understand each other, and we're patient with each other. And we check in on each other. So it's a beautiful arrangement that we have over there. I feel like just having people in your life that give you that kind of grace. My mother has been phenomenal in learning about ADHD, phenomenal. She loves her children and all she wants to do is know them. She wishes she could climb into our minds.

Laura: Oh, that's cute.

Lisa: I can't imagine being out here all alone in this. There's so much static in my head. I feel like I'm, my brain is having conversations with me, but I am not agreeing with what's going on. I talk to myself in such a horrible way. And medicine does help, but I'm telling you, this podcast. Oh, Lisa. Hearing people's stories made me feel so normal. I wanted to literally cry.

Laura: Well, first of all, thank you for being such an avid listener. That's why we do this. It helps us keep going. And I hear you on the negative self-talk. I mean, it's natural with how you grew up and being told that you're the bad one.

Lisa: But when you can give your own self grace and say, you know what, this is just your mind right now. You're probably overstimulated. What I started to do too is know, I didn't realize that I was ruminating about one thing for a long time. Like 20 minutes and then the next thing for 20 minutes and then the next thing for 20 minutes. I didn't realize I even did that until your podcast. So one day I was at the register, somebody, some customer did something funny, weird. And I was thrown back. Then they leave, and I ruminated about it for about 45 minutes. And then I looked at the clock and I said, "You know what, you've been thinking about this thing for so long and you haven't accomplished anything. Let it go." Then I realized my brain went to the next thing. It was like a conversation I had earlier that day. I was like, "Why did you say that? Why did you say that thing?"

Laura: I get that.

Lisa: And then I was ruminating about that and I said, "Lisa, do you see the pattern?" That's what this podcast has done. It helps me see the patterns of myself. And then I said, "Wow, no wonder you're so stressed out even when you leave work. If you could just leave these things in the past and breathe, you can be happier." And it worked like magic. It was.

Laura: Wow. Your story is just phenomenal, Lisa. Really enjoyed talking with you. And just so grateful. You know, keep listening to the show. We're so happy that you're a listener and that you shared with us. And now we get to share your story with everybody.

Lisa: Thank you so much for having passion for your listeners, people you didn't even know. You have no idea how you really can shape people with your passions and your heart. And you have a good one. Thank you, Laura.

(23:27) Outro and credits

Laura: Thanks for listening today. As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. 

And check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned in the episode.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

“ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Say "Hi," Jessamine.

Jessamine: Hi, everyone!

Laura: And Margie DeSantis.

Margie: Hey, hey!

Laura: Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Alyssa Shea. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Production support provided by Andrew Rector.

Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. From Understood.org, our executive directors are Scott Cocchiere and Jordan Davidson.

And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.