Two adult ADHD diagnoses, opposite reactions (Sam Pittis and Katie Breathwick’s story)

Sam Pittis and Katie Breathwick — best friends and co-hosts of You’re Wrong About ADHD — compare their very different reactions to being diagnosed with ADHD. Katie came to her ADHD diagnosis through her teenage son and felt a sense of excitement and clarity. Sam felt shaken. He began to see his years of depression, emotional crashes, and coping habits in a new way. 

Hear how ADHD shows up uniquely in the two of them, from emotional dysregulation and sensory struggles to disorganization and missed signs in childhood. Also in this episode: gender differences, late diagnosis, and the quiet grief of wondering what might have been.

• Listen: Building ADHD community

• Read: 8 common myths about ADHD

• Watch: ADHD and depression

Katie Breathwick: I bounce into the studio to tell my friend Sam about this revelation about me that explains so much that went wrong in the past. And Sam is crestfallen. He looks like I have dropped a bomb in his lap. And he said, "I've been diagnosed with ADHD as well." But his response was the opposite to mine.

Sam Pittis: Totally. So my reaction to this was, "Okay, well now I'm stuck with this forever."

Laura Key: Hi everyone, and welcome back to "ADHD Aha!", the show where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. If you've met one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD. Today I have not one, but two guests, and together their stories really embody that idea.

Sam Pittis and Katie Breathwick host the podcast "You're Wrong About ADHD". They're also best friends and kindred spirits who both have ADHD, but their experiences with it have been very different. Katie and Sam, welcome to the show. So excited to have you today. How are you?

Katie: Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you for having us.

Sam: Yeah, really excited to talk to you.

Laura: How do you guys know each other?

Katie: So we worked in a radio newsroom long, long, long time ago for many, many years. And we worked on a small news desk that served a number of different radio brands. And in that kind of quite high-pressured situation, you get to know people really, really well. And over time, I saw Sam under certain stressful situations.

And then we both moved into presenting on a classical music radio station in the UK called Classic FM. And we ended up there, both presenting shows side by side next to each other on the schedule, and then discovering quite recently that we had both been diagnosed with ADHD.

Sam: And the more you look back — and I'm sure we'll get into this — realizing that so many of our professional choices, our relationship choices, and so much about how we behaved in those environments made so much more sense now we know what we know.

Laura: Can you remember the moment when your friendship really clicked? And was it ADHD inspired at all, if you really think about it?

Sam: I think in terms of carrying on, it was. You know, we met quite early on in my career in the newsroom and we were thrown together, and you kind of, when you're in a high-pressure environment, rely on each other. But there was clearly a sense that we were on the same wavelength, I think.

Katie: I realized quite early on that first of all, Sam had a really good sense of humor. And in a stressful environment, that's a really important release of energy and tension. And there'd be times when I would be thinking something and Sam would express it out loud and I'd think, "Yes, thank goodness that — yes."

And I do think there's also a sort of self-selecting type of person who ends up in a radio newsroom in the first place, right? Or in radio in the first place because they're places where you have to perform under stress, but also plan everything at the last minute so you can leave everything till the last minute. And so there are a lot of us around in that environment.

Sam: Oh, the buzz of live broadcasting — it's all about leaving everything to the last minute. It's having that information all milling around at once, and suddenly in one moment going live, disseminating all of that information, feeling the rush and the buzz, and then straight afterwards forgetting all of it, taking no responsibility for it, leaving it, and moving on to the next thing. I mean, it's the absolute perfect ADHD job.

Laura: I always find it so interesting how people with ADHD kind of gravitate to each other, right? I find that so many people who I know who are in my orbit or who I click with, I'm like, "Wait," and we have this moment where we realize that we both have ADHD or ADHD tendencies. And I'm like, "Does everybody have ADHD?" And the answer is no, not everybody has ADHD, but you kind of find each other.

(07:33) The emotional impact of their adult ADHD diagnoses and how it affected their marriages.

Katie: And that is exactly what happened to us. Because when I got diagnosed, my diagnosis came quite kind of classically for middle-aged women through the diagnosis of my teenage son. Sitting in the clinic with him and hearing the questions that he was being asked, and my husband who was also there pointing at me going, "That's you. That's you."

And obviously then subsequently kind of following that route to diagnosis, I bounce into the studio one night to tell Sam about this thing that's happened, this revelation about me that explains so much that went wrong in the past. And Sam is crestfallen, absolutely. He looks like I have dropped a bomb in his lap. His jaw dropped, he went completely pale, and he said, "I've been diagnosed with ADHD as well." But his response was the opposite to mine, wasn't it, Sam?

Sam: Totally. I mean, I had gone through a phase of having quite serious mental health issues, and I think I had for some time. I look back at my life and think I'd had several periods of depression, and I had got to the stage where I had obviously been hiding this and masking this in a way that perhaps I wasn't even conscious of because I'd developed habits that worked for me.

I say "worked" — they were incredibly destructive, you know, managing through alcohol, managing through shutting myself away after having big emotional crashes. This kind of behavior that then came to the fore when I got married — I got married and had children and suddenly the things that you do to manage your ADHD, which can be destructive but also can involve shutting everybody else out, no longer work.

Because you're in an environment where you have day-to-day responsibility, where there are people who you are with all the time. And that was when it became clear that there was something else going on for me. What that was, I didn't know. And over a period of therapy and talking to a brilliant therapist who said, "Look, maybe this is something to explore. Maybe ADHD is something to look at," I got a diagnosis.

But my reaction to that was: all these problems, all these things that have been, you know, dogging me all these years, all these behaviors that I'm trying to stop and I can't — well, actually, if this is innate in me, if this is a condition, then maybe it will never go away. So my reaction to this was, "Okay, well now I'm stuck with this forever."

Laura: Katie, it sounds like your "aha!" moment was in the clinic with your child, right? And your husband pointing at you — lovingly, I'm sure, right?

Katie: I hope so, yeah. No, it was total acceptance — radical acceptance from my husband, I've always believed. I remember shortly after my diagnosis actually having a good old sob about it and saying to him at one point, "I wonder why you're with me, because I've just realized why I can't do all the things that I'm so rubbish at." And he just said, "Because there's other stuff that you can do which is great."

So when Sam and I had that sort of initial conversation of, "Okay, this is so different for us," we then kind of embarked on probably six months of the wonderful thing about a radio studio — right? — is that it's soundproofed. Okay, it's a very private space and it feels very safe. And it was almost like a place for us to do friend therapy, wasn't it?

We would talk about the stuff that had gone on in the past and places where we'd stumbled, and over time I would come out of those conversations obviously feeling so much better for them, but having learned so much, actually, from Sam's experience as well as mine. Right. Partly because our experiences are so different. And I tend to be more upbeat, more positive, sort of shine the sort of sunny side on things. And sometimes Sam can be a bit more of an Eeyore — I'm a Tigger, he's an Eeyore.

Sam: Oh, and those two perspectives were really helpful to me, and I could see that that would be helpful to other people who might be experiencing a similar journey. Totally. I mean, I would say it was helpful to me to have your perspective, but it's interesting what you said there about your reaction and speaking to your husband and thinking, "What, you know, why are you with me?"

In some senses, there are clearly threads which are similar in a reaction to diagnosis, because my feeling was, "Well, you know, how am I going to manage my relationship with my wife? How am I going to manage to get through the rest of my life and look after my children when this stuff that's been going on, this mental health crisis, is here forever?"

Laura: Sam, what led you to evaluation? I mean, you spoke about it kind of in broad strokes, but could you be more specific?

Sam: Of course. I had struggled with what I now know to be emotional dysregulation — I mean, that would be the phrase we'd use — but ultimately, it meant that for most of my life, I was firing on all cylinders all week. Even in childhood, into adulthood, into work life, I was going and going and going at 100 miles an hour doing everything. My brain was going fast, my body didn't seem to keep up with that.

And what would happen is I would get really frustrated and I wasn't able to process the emotions that were coming because everything was going so quickly. And I would find there was lots of sort of sensory issues — a lot of tiredness, being worn out. Quite often I would feel that my skin was crawling and my shirts were uncomfortable, I could feel my hair sort of prickling and sticking into me.

And what would happen quite often when I got to the weekend was, when I stopped on a Saturday, I would crash, so I'd be unable to get out of bed. And I remember that as a child, and I must at some point have just put that behind a closed door. And it went into adulthood, and it became, you know, some quite unpleasant periods of depression, and then into my relationship with my wife and certainly having children.

(14:50) Childhood memories of school struggles and the grief associated with missing an early diagnosis.

Sam: Right. Having children was the turning point because here was something that I wanted to do. Here was a relationship that I wanted to foster, a responsibility I wanted to take on, but my tank was already full with all of the things I've just described, and I wasn't able to do that.

And when our second child came along in the middle of a COVID lockdown, I got to the point where I just couldn't cope. And I was having therapy, and what was happening was I was going and I was being given space to just slow down and to express some of these feelings that I couldn't express naturally, and that would help, but then it would all build up again.

And this therapist very gently said to me, "Look, this isn't doing anything long term, but I've been looking at ADHD — have you considered whether this might be you?" And honestly, I knew about ADHD — I'd looked at it before because I'd looked at all the different possibilities of what might be going on.

And it was always this suggestion of sort of a naughty schoolboy, which I absolutely was, but also there was things like forgetfulness and, you know, disorganization. And I'm probably — I mean, I would say I'm one of the most organized people I know because I am hyper-organized. And obviously at some point in life, I've overcompensated for having ADHD.

Laura: So when you reflect back on growing up, can you see flashes of ADHD? Do you remember — what do you remember about that, being undiagnosed?

Katie: What I remember most of all is how hard school was. I went through a number of schools. There was one school where I only lasted for a year and I was lucky in one very big way in that my mom was a teacher. And I now realize my mom really valued the children who had energy and spirit in the classroom because she probably saw herself in those kids.

And she could see when I was struggling and when I was unhappy. And it meant that for a large part of my education, I went to schools that were boys' schools that took a handful of girls. And in those environments, I hid in plain sight because I was a girl, so if I was being naughty, it was like, "Well, you know, it's not so bad."

Yeah, absolutely. But I think they just kind of were a bit confused by it and they were surrounded by spirited boys, so it was sort of less of a problem. The problems really started when I ended up in girls' schools. There was one particular all-girls school that I went to for one year, but it was very much about sitting in rows quietly, doing as you're told, taking instructions, not having a lot of agency or ability to get involved.

And I just couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And I was 11 — I was kicked out of the school orchestra. You know, which for somebody who now works in classical music as a classical music radio presenter is an extraordinary thing to admit. But when I was 11, I was utterly devastated by that. I was trying to learn the clarinet, I loved music, and I was kicked out of the school orchestra for talking too much.

I wish I could put my arm around that little girl and explain what was going on because at the time, obviously, it was exclusion, but it's so much more than that to a child. It's being excluded from activities with your friends, it's embarrassing, it's shameful. But at the age of 54 when, you know, you suddenly get the ADHD diagnosis, all of that stuff rushes in at once and you feel it all at once — all of those feelings all over again. Yeah. And it was hard coming to terms with the ways in which I felt I had been let down as a little kid.

Laura: Sam, did you ever feel let down as a child?

Sam: I think as a child I had a sense that there was something going on inside me. And I do — I do think that. I mean, you can always sort of retroactively fit this stuff, but I did. I had a sense that there was something going on in me or there was something different or I just couldn't quite do things in the way that other people did.

And I was aware — I remember there was a period in school where I was aware that other parents had complained about me and didn't want their children near me. And I just think that's part of the grief process when you are diagnosed. And I think it's important to say, you know, Katie and I are — have had relatively successful careers.

And I think it's important to recognize that we've done okay, but at the same time, through that, we've carried some actually quite difficult things still. While I'm thankful for where I am and the things I've been able to do, there is a great sadness about what things could have been like if I'd been diagnosed at 7 instead of 37.

Laura: And you two had so kind of a similar thread in childhood — obviously very different stories, but that feeling of feeling like you are let down, that you are letting down other people — but very different reactions to your diagnoses. So, Katie, you had more of a positive reaction, it sounds like.

Katie: I still don't really know why that is. I have reflected that I wonder whether — I mean, my mom and I had a difficult relationship in other ways because there was ADHD coming in on that from both sides. But the one thing my mom was really great about was expression of personality. And I do wonder if that is why — in that, you know, in our family home, being a bit silly and dancing to music was celebrated.

And I wonder if that is the simple reason why I was happy to acknowledge that I have ADHD. Because lots of what comes with ADHD, I think, is great. We are birds of a feather, aren't we? It's why Sam and I became such good friends because not only do they forgive your failings, but you're attracted to the wonderful elements of their personality that are fun to be around. You know, Sam on a night out is a great person to be around, let me tell you.

Sam: I believe it. I used to be. I used to be — a bit old for that now.

Katie: I'm going to hop on a flight and come hang out! I'm coming to Devon, Katie. I don't actually know where Devon is, but I'm coming. That's the thing, you know, you sometimes see ADHD walk into a room in a perfect stranger, but you can see it. And it comes with vulnerability and shame and embarrassment and difficulties in all kinds of different ways, but it also comes with a kind of stardust, I think.

You can really relate to it and engage with it. And I just think I was lucky, you know, as somebody who was full of energy — had too much energy as many teachers told me — in my own home, that energy was really celebrated. And I think that made a big difference, actually.

Laura: I love that word "stardust". That's going to stick with me.

Sam: Well, I'm not sure anybody's ever used the phrase "stardust" about me, to be honest, but I do like the idea of it.

Katie: I just did, Sam. I just did.

(22:33) Comparisons of ADHD traits and the difficulty of finding compatible wellness practices

Sam: It sort of crystallizes what you asked me before, really, about whether I feel let down. I think — I think what I've come to realize is that I can manage ADHD. What I couldn't manage was all of the mental health problems that had come up from being undiagnosed. So when I was diagnosed, there was as I said the sense that this was — I was stuck with this.

But also, there was a sense of saying that little version of me had days when he couldn't get up or get washed or sat in his room crying on his own or couldn't cope with the noise of people around him and needed help but couldn't find it. That still upsets me, I think. It does still make me think, well, it's sort of unfair. So I think that's why when I was diagnosed, there wasn't a sort of sense of celebration because there is a sense of — well, what have we missed and what have we lost here?

Laura: Okay, so let's do a few — like a few kind of, well we'll call them rapid-fire, but feel free to explore the space — questions. What is an ADHD symptom or trait that you both struggle with?

Sam: I mean, that thing we talked about being in the newsroom and everything being rapid-fire. We are both quite impulsive and impatient. I think that would be fair to say.

Katie: We want everything to happen yesterday. And doing the podcast, when we started doing stuff from home and we had to do remote recordings — speed up, Katie, speak quicker, speak quicker, speak quicker. See what I mean? Yeah, but the steps that we had to go through in order to be able to do what we're doing right now — we both had to keep pep-talking each other going, "No, it's — I know it's really boring right now, I know it's really boring." Because it's all troubleshooting, isn't it? It's all there's an issue here and then there's a little issue and they're all tiny steps.

I'd hear Sam going, "Can I just say I'm already really bored and I just want to throw this laptop away?" And I go, "Yeah, I know. I hear you, I hear you. Just do two more." And then I'd be the one going, "I'm so bored, I'm so bored, I just need a —" and we would swap.

Laura: Well, I'm glad that you stuck with it so we can be here in this remote setup. I appreciate it. I hope you're having a good time.

Katie: We are. Yeah. This is the good bit. This is the fun part. I know.

Laura: Give me an example of the biggest difference in terms of what one of you struggles with and what one of you doesn't struggle with.

Sam: I think it's — I mean, whether this is two or one, but I think it's — it's forgetfulness and organization, isn't it? 

Laura: That's for you, Katie, right? The forgetfulness and disorganization?

Katie: Yeah. Terrible.

Sam: And that's not me throwing it onto you and judging you in any way, but I think we've certainly learned that there's a difference in how we approach things.

Katie: No, but it's true. You know, Sam will say something to me and I'll go, "What?" and he'll say, "That thing we talked about like 48 hours ago?" It's a combination of things, isn't it? It's not just the ADHD. I'm also a postmenopausal woman, so there's all of that stuff rushing in as well. It's a number of things.

But forgetfulness is definitely a thing. And organizationally — I mean, I'm in awe of Sam, frankly, because everything seems so easy to you. It seems so kind of straightforward, you've got all your systems worked out, you know how it all works. And I just feel like I'm an octopus juggling plates, and it — and I'm dropping them all.

Sam: Then I operate in a sort of period of, or a system of permanent stress, if you like, with my brain running 100 miles an hour all the time. And actually, sometimes I wish I could just say, "Oh, it doesn't matter what happens about that. Oh well, what's the worst that happens?" And I just — my brain just won't let me do that.

Laura: Sam, I'm a bit more in your camp on this one. I really am. I'm one of those people who always set fake deadlines for myself so that I would force myself to get everything done and, but I was so burnt out by the end of everything. Sam, did you ever get in trouble as a kid for forgetfulness or lack of organization? And do you think that that — if so, did that lead you to be kind of overcompensated?

Sam: It's a really interesting question. It's something I have thought about. I think honestly, I come from a family of people who are very organized and talk very quickly and like to get to the point. And — we can explore whether there's neurodivergence in my family, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Laura: Sam, can I tell you that my dad, he worked his whole life at a filing company? An organizational company. Brilliant. And I had to work at the factory on my summers when I was in high school just to earn some extra money and to learn how to, you know, have a job and working on the organization. I'm filing things, etc., or I'm at the factory. That was fun. That's like the worst possible thing that could happen to you. Do you reflect on that as a — as a key learning experience?

Laura: Yeah, it definitely stuck with me. But it was a good — it was a good bonding experience for me and my dad, though. That's for sure. Okay, so what's something that you two have or continue to argue about when it comes to ADHD?

Katie: We used to argue about breathwork a lot because I just found the whole thing ridiculous. I've come around. It's fine.

Laura: Wait, what do you mean?

Sam: So sort of mindfulness and breathing and in ways of calming your nervous system. It's something that I've obviously — I've learned lots about and I don't always do it all the time. But yeah, when I first suggested it to you, Katie — and I do think, you know, and I recognize this in me too, there is a big thing about all of this and I would urge anyone who's sort of trying to manage their ADHD: you need to look at framing things in the context of something you want to do. Because I can make the — a brilliant suggestion, what I consider a brilliant suggestion to Katie, and if it's something that I'm telling her to do, doesn't matter how beneficial it's going to be, she's never going to do it.

Katie: Don't do that.

Laura: So you like to do it, Sam, and she — and Katie's not into it?

Sam: It's something that I do and that she doesn't want to do. But I do think part of that was because when I told it to her, it was sort of — it was coming across as if I was telling Katie what she needed to do, which for someone with ADHD — Sam knew everything about breathing. It's only going to end in one way, isn't it? If you tell me what to do, I'm going to say, "No, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it." But if I think I've come to it myself, then that's — yeah.

Katie: The other thing that our awareness of ADHD and the podcast has helped with has been realizing, actually, that in those moments when I've been in a yoga studio — I have a friend who's a yoga teacher who who said, "Yeah, yeah, come along to a yoga class." And I — and she's the loveliest friend. And at the end of six sessions with Joe, Joe turned around and said, "I don't think yoga is for you."

Because I — wait, wait, wait. I've never ever heard of a yoga instructor saying that. They never say "don't come back." She said — she basically made it very clear that I was too fidgety and too noisy and too chatty, because I was chatting! Chat, chat, chat. And of course, what I have realized over the last three years is that with things like breathing, with things like a yoga class, meditation, anything like that, you've got to look at your practice within the framework of how your brain works.

I now do yoga on my own with somebody on the laptop, right? So I can be expressive without spoiling everyone else's experience. And you know, poor old Joe, it's not very fair to call her out, but all she was doing was trying to rescue the experiences of the five other people in that class. And I get it. It's about finding the places and the spaces and the ways of doing those things that are definitely useful in a way that is convivial to us and the other people, you know? And that takes time.

Sam: Totally. You know, it took me 35 years to be convinced to do any exercise at all. And people would tell me to — "It'll really help you get that energy out." I don't want to do it. Leave me alone. Leave me alone. It was only when I then went swimming because I needed to, I had to because I'd got to sort of crisis point, and I went swimming and I went, "Oh, that helps. Hey! Did you know that if you go swimming and do exercise, this is brilliant for you?" And suddenly I...

Laura: "I've discovered this thing!"

Sam: "I've discovered exercise! It's amazing!" It's mind-blowing. But that experience then next time when you don't want to do it, you say, "Yeah, but actually there's a benefit to me and there's a choice I can make, and it's not an external voice."

Laura: What would you say was your biggest "eureka" moment together? The thing that you're like, "Yes, I completely agree. Yes, oh, that's me too." I'm sure you've had a million.

Katie: We've had a million. Have we? What, a million agreements? A million times we've agreed on the podcast? That sounds unlikely. Sam's going to pull a face now. Is it appropriate to talk about this on the podcast? I don't know. We realized as young people, we didn't do the drugs that maybe some of our friends might have been doing around us.

Laura: Say more!

Katie: Right. Because — and I'd be on the dance floor until 6:00 in the morning and high on life.

Sam: Yeah, that's true. And it was a proper "eureka" moment in the studio when we both made that realization. We both went, "Ah! You too!" And I had friends going, "Oh, you should try this, and you should try that." I didn't need to. They were on it to get them to 6:00 in the morning on the dance floor, whatever it was, and I never needed to.

And I didn't really need a lot of alcohol either. And again, friends would be drinking and I wouldn't be. I was bouncing up and down with joy for eight hours with no need for anything else. That's a really good example, Katie. I agree with you on that. I went through my 20s in London, you know, there was lots of opportunities of things to do and it was — it never — I mean, it never interested me at all.

And there were people around you doing things and I was always sort of thinking, "I don't need to. I'm just, you know, we're going to go, we've been out for a few beers, we're going to go to a club, and I won't have anything to drink and I won't necessarily even engage with anybody else, but I'll dance for four or five hours and I'll have a great time." Didn't need any stimulants.

Katie: Yeah. And I've had people ask me what I'd taken. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The number of times people have said to me, "Are you on drugs, mate?" "No! This is just me!"

Laura: I love that. And dancing is such great medicine for ADHD. Oh my gosh. I used to be — up until probably my late 20s, I was so embarrassed to dance and so closed down. And then, I don't know, therapy and — it was actually around my ADHD diagnosis, I think, that I just started to dance. Amazing. And I had so much fun going out and I would dance all night and I was like, "I didn't care anymore." I don't know, I don't know if there's a connection, but...

Katie: Yeah. You were liberated in some way. You were unleashed.

Laura: I was unleashed!

Katie: Sam and I have talked about this, post-diagnosis especially in those initial months post-diagnosis, the mask didn't just slip. The mask was thrown, flung far away. And on a couple of occasions, my husband would say to me, "Could you just mask a bit? Just a — just a bit? It would be good today if you could mask." Because there was this sort of sense of, "This is me!" And for years I've been tamping myself down, I've been making allowances, I've been making sure I — I show up with sort of 75% me because 100% me is too much. And post-diagnosis there was definitely a period of, "I'm just going to turn it up to 11."

Laura: Sam, have you ever gone out dancing with Katie, or is this always separate?

Sam: Oh yeah, we have. I mean, not for a long time in fairness.

Laura: Well, I think that you guys need to do it again soon.

Sam: Maybe we do!

Laura: Well, everyone definitely go check out Sam and Katie's podcast "You're Wrong About ADHD". You two are a ball. I had so much fun talking with both of you. I would love to hang out with you sometime. Let me know if you're ever in New York, or if I ever come to Devon.

Katie: When you're over, get in touch.

Sam: I don't know, I like the invite to New York. Let's do that.

Laura: Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Katie: Thank you so much for having us.

Sam: Thanks for having us.

Laura: Thanks for listening today. As always, if you want to share your own "aha!" moment, email us at ADHDaha@understood.org. Or send a message to our voicemail inbox. You'll find a link in the show notes, along with resources and links to anything we mentioned in the episode.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.

"ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine.

Jessamine Molli: Hi everyone!

Laura: And edited by Alyssa Shea. Video is produced by Calvin Knie. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright. Production support provided by Andrew Rector. Briana Berry is our production director. Neal Drummond is our editorial director. From Understood.org, our executive producers are Scott Cocchiere and Jordan Davidson. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.