Rejection sensitivity and ADHD as an Emmy-winning comedy writer (Dan McCoy’s story)

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Dan McCoy understood better his mood swings, fear of rejection, and hyperfocus when he was diagnosed with ADHD last year. He got an ADHD evaluation after reading an article his brother wrote about being on the autism spectrum. 

Dan is a comedy writer who’s won two Emmy awards for his work on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He also co-hosts the movie podcast, The Flop House. Dan explains how comedy writing can be exposure therapy for rejection, and how he’s coping with managing emotions. 

Want to share your aha moment? We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at ADHDAha@understood.org.

Timestamps

(01:24) Dan’s recent ADHD diagnosis

(03:55) Recognizing emotions and burnout from masking

(06:40) The “boom bust” ADHD energy cycle

(08:05) Would it have been helpful to have an ADHD diagnosis as a child?

(11:26) Rejection sensitivity and comedy writing

(15:32) Does ADHD make you funny?

(19:34) Are people considerate of ADHD characteristics?

(22:34) What is Dan working on?

Episode transcript

Dan: I am a little overempathetic to other people's emotions. I am highly affected by them. I want to please people. I adjust to them. I get concerned if I think something's off. And meanwhile, my own emotions can be a little bit more mysterious to me. I will shift in the way I'm feeling without quite understanding why. And part of therapy for me has been let's get better at that. Let's identify what might be making you feel in different ways.

Laura: This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.

I am here today with Dan McCoy. Dan is a comedy writer who has won two Emmys for his work on "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart." Dan also produces and co-hosts the movie podcast "The Flop House." Thank you, Dan, for being here. Thank you for writing into the show. How are you today?

Dan: Well, I think. Yeah, well.

Laura: I mean, you've got two Emmy awards, you have to be doing all the time, right?

Dan: One would think. One would imagine it's a tough time for writing.

(01:24) Dan's recent ADHD diagnosis

Laura: And welcome to the ADHD world, Dan. You were recently diagnosed just this year.

Dan: Yeah. Only at the age of, I was 45 then I have since had a birthday, but it was, you know, it's one of those things that would have been nice to know earlier.

Laura: So, tell me what was going on when you found out? How did you get there?

Dan: My brother wrote an essay about being diagnosed on the autism spectrum. And this is how news travels in our family. We don't tell each other things. I just read an essay that he wrote a couple of years after a diagnosis, and it got me thinking," Well, you know what? I'm a lot like John. People have said outright, like, who know him well. Like, 'Oh you're just like your brother. You talk like him. You have the same sort of mannerisms.' We both have the same sort of stimming behavior of cricketing our feet. And I thought to myself, am I also on the spectrum?"

And so, I sought a diagnosis and I discovered that, no, my neurodivergence was different. I had ADHD. There's some overlap in behaviors. But yeah, that's how I found out.

Laura: Were you surprised when you found out you had ADHD?

Dan: Yeah, because I think if you have had no reason to look into what it means, what you have in your head is hyperactivity. Particularly, you know, I grew up when it started to become a thing that was reported on in the media, and there are people in older generations being just like, "Oh that's just misbehaving. Like, that's not a thing," you know, a lot of that. And I was not hyperactive. I was an introspective, sort of dreamy kid. And I didn't know that there was a whole other category that covered me.

Laura: Yeah. Like so many of us finding out later in life. Were you diagnosed with inattentive type?

Dan: Inattentive type, yeah.

Laura: Inattentive type, which is one of the types underneath the bigger ADHD umbrella. You mentioned stimming. Can you explain what stimming means for any listeners who don't know?

Dan: Yeah. You know, like a physical sort of activity that provides comfort. Like if I'm sitting often at the end of the day or lying in bed, I rub my feet together and it just feels good. Not like not like excessively good, not like, this is amazing, but like, it feels comforting to me. And I've just done it all my life and never thought too much about it until I realized, "Oh this might be an indicator of something."

(03:55) Recognizing emotions and burnout from masking

Laura: You mentioned accurately the overlap between ADHD and autism symptoms. It's possible for people to have both ADHD and autism and or it may get diagnosed one for the other. I just want to confirm that you do not have autism, you have been diagnosed with ADHD only?

Dan: Well, on a certain level, I kind of think like, who knows? But I didn't reach sort of the threshold of attributes for autism. I have some of the behaviors and I also have, I forget the word for it, but I have a sort of emotion blindness to my own emotions a lot of the time.

Laura: Can you say more about that?

Dan: You know, it is my sort of understanding that particularly if you're further along the autism spectrum, there's a concern about recognizing emotions, and that often is about recognizing other people's emotions. I think, if anything, I am a little overempathetic to other people's emotions. I am highly affected by them. I want to please people. I adjust to them. I get concerned if I think something's off. And meanwhile, my own emotions can be a little bit more mysterious to me.

I will, my, I will shift in the way I'm feeling without quite understanding why. And part of therapy for me has been let's get better at that. Let's identify what might be making you feel in different ways.

Laura: Like mood swings?

Dan: Yeah, mood swings, sort of a irritability, a grumpiness. I mean, I think that a lot of that can be explained by masking, feeling like you're exhibiting a lot of energy trying to do things the way other people want them done. There's sort of a boom-bust cycle in ADHD energy a lot of the time where you can become very focused on something or overcommit yourself and then burn out on it, and that can lead to grumpiness.

I also think I definitely have a lot of what's called rejection sensitivity dysphoria, where I perceive any sort of upset as kind of an indictment of me as a human being. And so I can spiral and get cranky pretty quickly.

Laura: And that's really hard. I just want to say out loud that since you're a comedy writer, my inclination is to be jokey and laughy. But there's no, there's no, I'm not trying to minimize how difficult these things can be. I mean, I go through this as well.

Dan: Yeah, I don't I mean, don't worry about it, is what I would say about that. At "The Daily Show," one of the great traditions they would have and I say, great, I enjoyed it. But it could be hurtful was that whenever a writer left, they would have a roast of that writer. And so, very skilled, very sharp, occasionally very mean people would make jokes at your expense. And I feel like I actually had a reputation as being one of the people who could take it better than others, like it would roll off of me.

(06:40) The "boom bust" ADHD energy cycle

Laura: I wanted to ask a little bit more about the boom-bust that you described when it comes to ADHD. Does that happen for you, like if you are transitioning from one activity to another, like is that when the mood change would typically happen?

Dan: Well, I definitely have trouble, like if I get into sort of flow while I'm writing my wife, who we suspect may have undiagnosed the other type of ADHD, the hyperactive type…

Laura: Oh wow.

Dan: Would I come in and want to talk to me about something and I've had to train myself to not get cranky about it because it is a hard shift. Like I am in a different mental stage at that point and I have to turn around and be present with someone who I love and that can be tough. But also I think I mean with boom-bust that like I'll get very excited about a project. I was going through childhood comics that I drew recently, cleaning out the closet, and so many of them were unfinished. So many of them started out with high hopes and then didn't go anywhere.

And I think that I've gotten better at committing to things. But it is a world where I will start a new project and I will have a lot of focus, but I also know that I better, at least get a first draft done pretty quickly or else I'm going to lose all passion for it.

(08:05) Would it have been helpful to have an ADHD diagnosis as a child?

Laura: Do you think if we imagine a fabulous world where when you were a child, we knew as much about ADHD as we know about it now and we understood inattentive type, would it have been helpful for you to have had a diagnosis as a child? How would that have changed your life?

Dan: Possibly because I've gone through life thinking like I have all this potential that everyone saw in me and kept telling me I had. And even though I have achieved things...

Laura: Don't forget the two Emmys. Yeah.

Dan: I managed to do that. I do feel like my life is littered with a lot of unfinished business and like, I could have done a lot more. And now that I'm medicated, you know, I was writing before getting on this call with you and I was writing straight through and very focused. And I keep jumping now from project to project and actually finishing them in a way that I don't know was true for me the rest of my life. And it made me feel like there was something wrong, like I was just lazy.

Laura: What was the feeling the first time you took ADHD medication?

Dan: You know, I think that some people report a sort of a night and day feeling. I didn't feel that, but I suddenly did feel like, "Oh I can do the stuff that I need to do. I can prioritize the important things in a way that I didn't before. I can say to myself like, 'I don't need to suddenly get focused on this other thing in the middle of a more important project. I can finish this, or I can tell myself, you know what? Tomorrow's another day I can get to it.'"

And more dramatically, I kind of felt like it helped me with emotional regulation because I was no longer as stressed about all the stuff that was getting in my way, and so I could be a little nicer.

Laura: I think there's a big perception out there that ADHD medication makes you like on overdrive and now you can do anything and like it's like this power drug and it's like, well, if that's the way it feels, then your doses probably off or maybe you don't have ADHD. Your experience sounds similar to mine, which was, I took ADHD medication for the first time and I was like, "Oh I feel regular." I'm also really interested in what you said about emotions. That's something that I've experienced as well. I'm like, "This is an ADHD medication. Why am I feeling calmer like emotionally? I feel like I can regulate my emotions better."

Dan: Yeah, it does come along with I have found recently that maybe it's driving my anxiety up a little bit because of the stimulant effects, even though it doesn't like overdrive me other ways. You found me right in the middle of sort of tinkering with medication.

Laura: I mean, you're so new on the process, Dan. I mean, it took me two years to get the right dosage and a lot of trial and error because my goal was to feel like I don't want to feel anything. I don't even want to notice it.

Dan: I have taken up yoga, which is the other thing that helps me. Knowing how to breathe even when I'm at my most stressed points, whether it be in a ridiculous position or just emotionally has been very helpful.

(11:26) Rejection sensitivity and comedy writing

Laura: I want to ask you about the rejection sensitivity, in particular in relationship to your job.

Dan: Right.

Laura: So, my perception, Dan, is as a comedy writer, it's got to be like rejection after rejection after rejection, just joke after joke getting rejected. You're getting roasted. I don't see how, I don't see how having rejection sensitivity works as a comedy writer. So, talk me through that.

Dan: Well, in a lot of ways, it was good therapy for me because it got me used to it. It is easier because it feels less personal. You see it around you all the time. You quickly realize like, this is the job, the most useful thing I've ever seen on writing for a late-night show was something that Todd Levin, one of the Conan writers, wrote about where someone took him aside after he was hired and was like, "Look, this is a volume business. It doesn't necessarily matter like whether you're great on one day or another day. What's important is you're able to come in day after day and contribute jokes, contribute stuff consistently, and some days it's going to work, some days it's going to not. But you're like a cog in the machine."

And that's kind of freeing. It's the reason why shows like this have 15 writers because you will only get a couple of jokes on any one show. You'll write a whole script with a partner, and the structure may still be there, but the people at the top, they know their voice. They might throw out 90% of it and rewrite it to their liking, and you just kind of have to get on board with that, especially because you know that they get the credit most of the time for the show, but they also get the blame. So, it's them out front and they'll want to put it in their own words.

Laura: So, the rejection and the acceptance of that is kind of built into the culture.

Dan: Yeah.

Laura: What was the best joke that they wrote about you for the roast?

Dan: So, my friend Matt Koff shout out to Matt Koff, still a writer there, recently named Funniest Stand Up in New York in some sort of contest. There was an incident where another writer sent around accidentally to the entire staff a spec sitcom script they had written called "Married Men." He meant it to go to his agent, but it went to everyone else. And he, of course, got a lot of fun made of him around the office. And I had recently, at that point gotten a divorce as well. So, at the roast, Matt got up and was like, "You know, this writer, you know, like, of course, very talented. Of course, we all read his pilot. "Married Men" also called "Not Dan McCoy."

Laura: And you were like in the midst of your divorce at that time?

Dan: Yes. He's a close friend, so. I laughed very hard. But anyone else, it would have been very mean.

Laura: Oh man. So, where does your rejection sensitivity kind of spike up? Tell me when you feel the worst.

Dan: At home. If I make a mistake and I'm told that I made a mistake, even if it's not with any ire in particular, there's a lot of defensiveness as my first response because it's like, "Well, can't you see that I didn't mean that?" And it feels personal to me in a way that maybe it shouldn't feel. And I've gotten over a lot of it, both through my own work and through the difficult blessing of a wife who will not let me get away with that.

Laura: Yay. Yay for her.

Dan: So that's helpful, yeah.

Laura: For me, like the delicate balance of managing a household and having a job and just like organizing a schedule and doing the things and making sure that the kids have the right size shoes and this and that, it's such a delicate balance that if I forget one thing and my husband not, just like trying to be helpful, he calls it out. I'm just like, "Do you understand what I go through? Just to, like, make sure that we don't have spoiled milk in the fridge?" You know, that kind of thing. Do you think that, does ADHD make you funny in any way?

(15:32) Does ADHD make you funny?

Dan: I think so, in the sense that both I get focused enough on certain things that I have a wide and strange sort of bank of knowledge to draw on, to make reference to. But also I think that maybe you tease out the meanings of things in a different way, like things that might normally just be accepted. You kind of think of the logic of them in a different way, an absurd way that makes them funny.

Laura: Can you give me an example?

Dan: Well, what I was writing just beforehand, for instance, was about Scrooge McDuck.

Laura: I love Scrooge McDuck. OK.

Dan: And a Fascination of mine. And it's just sort of an essay about how he's rich, yes, but is he a good businessman? Because his business model seems to be mostly traveling around the world, stealing treasures from other cultures. And he keeps his money in a big cement block rather than somewhere where he could perhaps earn interest or circulate and make more money, for instance. So.

Laura: I always just worried that he was getting so many germs all over him when he was diving around in his money.

Dan: For sure.

Laura: Also super nasty.

Dan: It's been in there so long at this point. Maybe…

Laura: It's all died off. Yeah. OK. Do you feel like a lot of the writers who you've worked with maybe at "The Daily Show," or other, I'm not telling, I know that you can't speak for them, but do you feel like it's an ADHD-rich community?

Dan: I would imagine that various neurodivergences are overrepresented in the comedy world. It's a place that you can't sort of thrive without being a little obsessed and maybe having some sort of chip on your shoulder. Like you need to prove that you're funny or worth something.

Laura: That's interesting.

Dan: That might lead to that.

Laura: What about ADHD can create that I'll call it a helpful chip on your shoulder?

Dan: I feel like it leads to a sort of like, well, I do my things my own way, my own special way. That way was just as valid as your way of doing it. And let me do it my way. And that kind of independent thinking, I think, is often a way that leads to comedy. You know, at its worst, it can cause trouble in the workplace, a kind of rejection of authority if that extends to your job. But a general sort of distrust of authority is something that I think thrives in comedy, helps comedy.

Laura: It's the most ADHD-friendly environment you've ever worked in, and it could include what you do right now working from home?

Dan: Yeah, in some ways, working from home is good because I can gauge my own moods, my own productivity. I can work to my cycles, although I am very hard on myself when I'm my own boss in terms of feeling very guilty if I'm not constantly being productive in some way.

Laura: Yeah.

Dan: And so, it's only recently that I think I've been able to give myself a little more permission to recognize those cycles. I do think that something like working at "The Daily Show" is very good for that too, because it's the same sort of thing every day, but the news changes every day. What you're working on is different every day. You're working with a different writer, cycling around.

And also because it gets so heavily rewritten by other hands, like you kind of just have to worry about a first draft. You don't have to most of the time, worry about rewriting yourself. You get to write your jokes, do it fast, turn them in, and then that's it.

(19:34) Are people considerate of ADHD characteristics?

Laura: Can I just say, Dan, you're very relaxing to talk to. Have you ever gotten that before?

Dan: No, but I love it. I always worry. I don't know. I kind of worry the opposite sometimes. So, that's great to hear. I have gotten like, "Oh have you done voiceover?" or something like that because I've got a low voice and at this point, I've done a lot of podcasting, but not that specifically.

Laura: You strike me as, I'm really, I'm not trying to butter you up here, like there's a point to what I'm about to say. Like, you seem like a very kind person. Do you feel like people are considerate enough of ADHD symptoms, characteristics, and whether it's the working world or elsewhere?

Dan: I think this is all connected because I do think I'm at heart a kind person. I think I can be a difficult person because I can be spiky for reasons that might be connected to this. But at my heart, I am empathetic and understanding. And I think that that might be because I want other people to be understanding of me. And I do think that there is maybe a slight lack of understanding that to be differently brained is not just the same as like, well, "Straighten up and fly right. You can do it differently." Like you can, it takes a lot of work and maybe a little medicine, but there's a fundamental difference that goes beyond that I don't think everyone does understand.

Laura: What's a specific example of a context where people could be more considerate?

Dan: Sometimes, for instance, I feel overwhelmed in a loud bar say, that like we do a movie trivia every other week at a bar in Brooklyn and it gets extremely loud and it's gotten a little bit better since my wife gave me some earplugs to wear.

Laura: Shout out Audrey. She sounds great.

Dan: Yes, thank you. I don't always think that people understand, like, if I can't take it, if I feel overwhelmed, if there's too much noise, if I'm too crowded, it's not just discomfort. I got to get out of there.

Laura: Yeah.

Dan: Like, I can't.

Laura: I completely relate. And you just feel like people probably think I'm rude or dramatic or just looking for an excuse.

Dan: Right.

Laura: Which bar do you go to for movie trivia?

Dan: The Nighthawk in Brooklyn.

Laura: Yeah.

Dan: Has an associated bar that does movie trivia.

Laura: Very fun. I bet you win every time. You win often, right?

Dan: Often. Often. Another movie podcast "Light check," a very great podcast, a couple of people from that go sometimes and they slaughter.

Laura: Only in Brooklyn do you have, you know, opposing podcast teams duking it out on movie trivia.

Dan: Yeah.

Laura: That's one of the most Brooklyn things I've ever heard, as a former Brooklyn resident, I feel like I can say that. What do you want to plug? Tell us about what you're working on.

(22:34) What is Dan working on?

Dan: Well, there's always the podcast. It's called "The Flophouse," like I said. It's me and my friend Elliot, who used to be the head writer for "The Daily Show," and now he's writing this upcoming Ghostbusters cartoon on Netflix.

Laura: Cool.

Dan: He's in charge of. And our friend Stuart, who co-owns a couple of bars and is also very funny despite not having any comedy inclinations before I roped into a podcast and it's about bad movies, but we try not to be jerks about it. We're all people who do creative stuff. We're just using it as an excuse to get together and have fun. And I also have a newsletter that I started recently that's sort of related to ADHD in that people of neurodivergence often have special interests, and I called my newsletter Dan McCoy's special interests. It's at DanMcCoyInterests.com, if you're interested in these letters.

Laura: We'll put a link in the show notes for sure. I'm excited to check that out. I'll definitely be signing up. I've already been listening to your show. It's great. I recommend that everybody, you know, check it out. Dan, is there anything else you want to share?

Dan: Look, I think that the pandemic caused a lot of people to have the time to slow down and actually think about themselves and their lives and realize a few things and get things checked out. And that's great. And I would recommend to anyone who maybe feels like, I don't know, they relate to the world a little bit differently to check this out. And if not, just to be a little gentler on themselves.

Laura: That's really well-put. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for writing in.

Dan: Thank you.

Laura: As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.

"ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Say hi, Jessamine!

Jessamine: Hi everyone.

Laura: And Margie DeSantis.

Margie: Hey, hey.

Laura: Video was produced by Calvin Knie. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Ash Beecher is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. Creative and production leadership from Scott Cocchiere and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

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  • Laura Key

    is executive director of editorial at Understood and host of the “ADHD Aha!” podcast.

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